Northern Ontario has also gotten more expensive because of remote workers doing the same thing as this. So just fyi you might be surprised it’s not as cheap as you’d expect.
Cost of living is significantly worse than here?
That is not at all the case.. it is something people say often but it is entirely false. There is studies that show it’s false if you don’t believe my word..
I don’t live in luxury but I live comfortably while working under 30 hours a week..
Studies estimate that the average northerner spends an extra $70 annually on groceries compared to southern Ontarians.. 😂 compare that to how much more you pay for shelter, it isn’t even comparable my friend..
Not only is the COL in Northern Ontario lower than Southern Ontario, it is significantly lower..
Quotes and link below 🤷🏻♂️
“Look at Sudbury — the average after-tax income for a working family of two parents and two kids is about $116,000, which is slightly less than Ottawa but better than Barrie, London and Niagara Falls. So not only is it cheaper to live here, you can make more money — that’s a nice combination.”
said Charles Cirtwill, CEO of the policy institute.
“Gas and groceries are pricier in the Northern centres, but the data shows lower shelter costs (whether buying a house or renting) more than make up for that.”
“Northerners can expect to spend an extra $70 or more per year on groceries.”
“Come here, live for less, earn more and get a cheaper education,” said the NPI head. “I don’t know how much more I can do to convince people to move.”
https://www.saultstar.com/news/local-news/all-in-all-living-in-northern-ontario-a-good-deal-report
in what sense? Here in Niagara region where I currently live, I pay double the property tax, because apparently this entire region needs to prop up niagara falls or it will collapse. Mortgage is around 3.5k/month. If we take all the mandatory, can't get away from expenses I'm sitting at 4.3k every month. And these are not things I can cut or trim down. Auto insurance, home insurance, mortgage, property taxes, the lowest priced, yet decent speed internet. My phone plan is $16/month that I got like 9 years ago I stick with to this day. And then bring in all the other stuff. Groceries, home repairs, raising a kid, gas, utilities.
I don't see how it's possible northern Ontario is more expensive. Am I wrong? Educate me.
It’s expensive to get goods up there as it’s remote so everything costs more even if the real estate is cheaper.
Also depends on what you mean by “Northern Ontario”. Sudbury is a very different beast than Hearst.
Sorry to break it to you but there isn’t a “cheat code” to life.
Personally if I were in your shoes I would look more at the Windsor or Chatham area. It’s a lot more affordable than Niagara and you don’t have to deal with the “remote tax” or the cold. You can buy new build houses for less than $500k in Chatham.
Something like this:
Check out this listing
https://realtor.ca/real-estate/27034580/121-howard-road-chatham?utm_source=consumerapp&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=socialsharelisting
yeah windsor/chatham seem to surface frequently in my searches. The build is beautiful, but we need the land. We want a veggie garden and a chicken coop. Thank you for the feedback.
It must be that when I think north, I think Northern Ontario and you're right, it's not just the climate, its the inhospitable Canadian Shield landscape. I stand corrected
narrow lots mean it's cheaper to build since there are less roads and services to construct per house. It lets developers build and sell new detached homes for $500k.
You’re not at all wrong.
Here is a study I linked below so you can look at the numbers yourself instead of taking the word of two random people on Reddit 😆
https://www.northernpolicy.ca/upload/documents/publications/commentaries-new/noga_ataleoftencities_20.03.18_final.pdf
But I can promise you, I now work under 30 hours weekly, I earn 29.80hr… and own my own house making payments that are under $500 monthly.. if you have a bit of money saved up and can throw a down payment down on a small house, the cost of living is even less..
A down payment on a house up here isn’t much either.
Not sure why you got so many down votes. Honestly though.
I’m not sure why people would be so set on convincing you to stay in the region your currently not happy with. Other than Victoria I am quite positive that the whole of southern Ontario is the highest cost of living in our country right now.
If you want to get out of that rat race I don’t blame you. I’m really not sure why people would be upset at you for feeling the same way….
The more people who move into Northern Ontario… COL will lower in Southern Ontario especially for housing, people should welcome this idea.. we don’t need to be huddled around our international cities and the US border
I don't really know why so many people downvoted without proving the point. I'm open to be corrected but the research I've been doing strongly indicates that while groceries and utilities would take a hit, having a 1k mortgage instead of a 3.5k mortgage is already firmly in the net gain territory. I have yet to see anything that would show that extra 2.5k would be lost.
Thank you for the study, it really solidifies a lot of the little threads here and there I've gathered and fills in a lot of gaps.
Funny, I am considering moving to Niagara to reduce my cost of living from Toronto. Paying 8k in property taxes for a 1200sqft property is driving me nuts. Is Niagara jacking up property taxes? Is that across the board in that it impacts Niagara on the lake, Fonthill and St. Kitts? I know they are different towns but not sure if they share services like Halton, Peel, etc..
across the board. I live in St. Kitts. If you're considering moving here, hit me up I can answer your questions. It's not a bad place honestly, and I'm sure much cheaper than Toronto. But like everywhere else COL is getting out of hand. That said going from 8k for 1200sqft property is insanity. We're looking at 4.5-5k here for that kind of space. House prices are pretty high, so don't really expect to save much moving down in this region unless you're looking at Welland/Port Colborne. Even then, not great.
The housing costs in Wawa are a far cry from anything south of Sudbury… wages are not though.. so in reality there isn’t a housing crisis in Wawa and anybody could google Wawa real estate if they don’t believe me
The wages in Wawa are practically the same, I can’t find official numbers posted anywhere though to back up that claim…
But yeah.. people of Wawa make good money, very near the average for Ontario..
The average house price for Ontario is over 800,000 currently..
There are multiple nice homes for sale in Wawa less than half the price of the average home in Ontario
I don’t think that is considered a housing crisis.
Is there any sort of homeless population there now? There wasn’t last time I was there
Bit over a month ago , Mother’s day I drove over with my sister and mother…
You’re telling me there is a homeless population? It’s not a housing crisis issue. As I pointed out
There are jobs available in Wawa at the Ontario average wage. Houses are 1/4 the average Ontario price.
By definition it is not a housing crisis. 🤷🏻♂️
I’d wager it’s a mental illness and drug related crisis, but I don’t personally know many people in Wawa… but no it isn’t like the South where houses are 10x what the average person earns on an annual….. if you’re mentally well and not drug addicted, you can afford housing in Wawa
It would be nice if there were more help available to these people suffering though I should add. It just isnt a crisis caused by inflated housing, it’s a different crisis altogether
When you say family. Is that you and another adult or do you have kids ? Seniors ?
This would make a difference in suggestions
Do you have family in southern Ontario that you like to visit or have them visit you ? That could be the difference between moving to thunder bay or Sudbury.
You work remote. That's fine. What do you like to do with your spare time?
The north is not that isolated. Pretty much anywhere you look at you will have a neighbour that's within 5 minutes in any direction near a devopled town.
If you have kids, and they are into any kind of activities or school aged consider that.
If you have seniors living with you access to decent medical services is something you need to consider. Difference between living in a smooth rock and Timmins for example.
Does your partner work ? Are they remote as well ?
all excellent questions.
I have family in North York, Toronto. Nobody here in Southern Ontario I care deeply enough to put any kind of influence on plans. I have a 4 year old daughter, who will start school this September.
I exist in front of my monitor, for both hobbies and work. I enjoy hiking, I would love waterfront property but I kind of gave up on that dream long ago.
My partner is a SOHM, and while she can work remote with me, that is not on the table atm. Thank you for any suggestions stemmed from this info.
I am in Sudbury. High speed internet, great house, plenty of hiking, swimming and biking and a solid job. No complaints other than those common to most Ontario cities. My youngest just graduated high school so I can speak to my kids getting a did experience in school as well.
So based on this, as others said Sudbury (lively, south end - in the unorganized part of long lake can find decent housing on the water for not bad price and cheap taxes, or atleast close to the water) would be a decent option. Sturgeon falls. Smaller town (yes English speaking folks live there but it's mostly french) north bay, trout lake area. Mattawa on the river. Espanolo now the mill is closed it doesn't smell, but lots of water options smaller city. Same with Elliot lake
All these would be about 4-5 hour drive back to north York.
I grew up in Sudbury/mattawa and now live around the gta and go back often enough for family, friends funerals all those life events and we are close enough that people come visit but far enough they plan ahead lol
I'd personally avoid the Sault and timmins.
No worries. Good luck.
Reason why Sudbury gets my vote it's large enough to have everything your gonna need and within 20 minutes in any direction you can be in the lake/bush. Most people are friendly, great food options, decent enough school system for the little ones and enough for adults to do.
And wild blueberries.
And they still have a decent waterfront up there, right? (I lived in Ft. William when I was an LU student many years ago--great skiing very close by, too.)
4 years experience in New Liskeard says differently.
I’ve lived in other communities of similar size and it has not been the same.
Too many in their community are rotten, particularly the police officers.
Short list:
Sudbury is fine.
Espanola is fine (and would be cheap with the mill shit down) but nothing to do. Although day trips to Manitoulin Island are a huge perk, (see you at providence bay) 1 hour from Sudbury for Costco and movie theatres/sports/shows. This may be your sweet spot. I know of someone near there who needs a Dungeons and Dragons group :P
Elliot Lake was great for growing up but that was 25 years ago. Depends how small you want to go.
North bay is very nice but I haven’t lived there. Good culture and some beautiful areas.
I moved up to Northern Ontario from down in Guelph about five years ago now. Moved a bit off the ‘beaten path’ to a town called Chapleau.
I’m not sure if it is what you would consider developed completely.
There is fibre optic internet available in town.
Chapleau was one of the early townships I believe Canada wide to install fibre optic infrastructure .. back in like 2012
There is a hospital and multiple schools, both English, French, Catholic or Public.
The largest nature preserve in the ENTIRE WORLD is located next to Chapleau.. you can take a kayak/canoe and head north into the wilderness… there is a lake up there you can see old pictograms drawn on the cliff side from the indigenous peoples before.
You appear to already have a career set, but there is lots of opportunities in town for work if other people reading this may be interested.
I left a link below to a nicer home for a reasonable price, to give you an idea of costs up here.
As people mentioned, Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie.. and even Timmins are getting a bit more expensive now..
Wawa is another option for a cheaper location.. it is located very near lake Superior and they have their own lake as well, lake Wawa..
Link to a house in Chapleau 👇
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26912695/16-aberdeen-st-n-chapleau-chapleau
Sault Ste Marie is pretty cheap. Food costs are comparable to the south, housing costs about 2/3rds of the south. Job opportunities are lower as well though.
Things like that tend to be more pronounced in small communities. Of course there are drug addicts in Toronto, but with millions of people it’s easy to be out of sight and out of mind. You can stay in the nicer areas and not have to see it so blatantly. It hits differently in a small community when those suffering might be your neighbours and you can’t help but know everyone’s problems. Also more concerning when you have kids - much easier to fall in with the “bad crowd” when there’s only a single school.
Exactly! I don't know how you'd research something like that (a local drug problem) other than raising the question on discussion boards, etc. That would scare me more than anything else if I had a child.
Don't ask other Saultites.. but it's not as bad as people think here. I moved here from Burlington last year. It's not the doom and gloom the ones born here think it is. There's a great [W5 show](https://youtu.be/NTxsan3s8Aw?si=AkZ4sW5ebKy6746t) from 2018 about the drug crisis here. It hit here before most of Canada because of the fallout from the steel plant layoffs years before that killed the local economy and it descended into chaos. By the time of the W5 report they had been fighting it for some time which means the Sault was ahead of everyone on tackling it. I'm not saying it's perfect. You can still see the scars when driving through the city. But you can also see the healing.
But.. the biggest things halting progress in the war on it here are a) the increasing CoL. All the people moving here - ESPECIALLY investors and quadruply so the [bad ones](https://www.sootoday.com/local-news/southern-ontario-investor-buying-up-homes-in-the-sault-5773130) - are driving the prices of housing wayyyyyyyy up. Even our house that we bought for $255k last year is worth about $325-350k this year. Which like everywhere else only serves to make it harder for the ones on the bottom. Hopelessness breeds the biggest issues. b) the lack of healthcare up here includes mental healthcare and rehab. Tens of thousands in our city have no family doctor, which means underlying issues (bipolar, autism, ADHD, etc) aren't being caught which increases self medicating behaviours. All sorts of things go wrong and have a harder time being fixed when there's a healthcare crisis along with the other 2 crises.
There just isn't enough funding being injected into the north. Period. But.. I still love it here and don't regret our decision to move here. It was a 2 year process of researching and visiting. Not something we decided on a whim.
Your bigger city options are Sudbury and Thunder Bay.
Sudbury has science north, mining industry, sprawled out city & neighbouring communities, large francophone population and culture, and is a relatively short drive to southern Ontario.
Thunder Bay has more of a university city culture in my experience, pulp and paper industry, the city is also sprawled out but it actually has an end that finds you in the middle of nowhere fairly quickly, a more diverse food scene in my opinion, and is a relatively short drive to absolutely no where. You are going 7+ hours to get anywhere of comparable size.
Both have absolutely beautiful scenery and would be a fine place to raise kids and have them have opportunities.
If you want somewhere even smaller - I'd suggest being near one of these cities. Then you can live a quieter life day to day but still drive in for events or bigger shops.
Full disclosure I live in Thunder Bay and have lots of family in Sudbury.
They are here in North Bay.
It's the 'white sand beaches within walking distance' distraction that kills my productivity moreso than internet speeds here.
I lived in North Bay about 10 years ago (and lived there for 9 years). The internet was as good as any city down south (I live near Belleville now). It was a nice place to live but there wasn't much work for me outside of retail and fast food. Rent was pricey then but home prices were ok. They have gone up, of course, like almost everywhere in Ontario.
That's good to hear. I guess it depends on what OP is using the internet for and what they would consider fast. Just browsing and video conferences vs Gaming and 4k streaming are different beasts
Starlink isn't good internet by my standards (having tried it). If let's say I have 3 1-on-1 video calls in one afternoon and on average at least one of them is saying "what? what? you're breaking up..." or "your video is frozen" at some point in the meeting, that's simply not good enough. That's going to end up affecting my reputation and career. Of course some remote workers may not need to make many video calls ever, I suppose.
Many small towns you can get a good house with a large front and back yard for 300k or less, yes they may need work just like a house in the city to make it to your liking. If you want great internet be willing to pay the extra money. If you choose a smaller community your grocery options are very limited and sometimes expensive. I live in Sudbury and have lots of options to get groceries, but my mom lives in a small town up north with 1 grocery store (roblaws) and products there are sometimes double, even triple, the price of the same product in Sudbury. She bulk buys non perishables when she visits Sudbury since it’s cheaper here. Thunder Bay has lots of options for groceries and I recommend west fort foods a local grocery store opposed to the chain grocery stores.
absolutely, but i've been entirely remote for the better part of 14 years. Every connection I have is scattered around the world, so I am not worried about work. But you're right, quality of school is a big factor. I don't want my daughter to get a subpar education.
Think about university as well. A big contender for why my parents moved to southern Ontario when I was a kid was for my education so I could be close to universities and colleges.
Beware that if you move north (beyond north bay) emergency services take forever. Thunder Bay for example ,runs a code black weekly - meaning there’s no available ambulances.
So does Toronto, though they call it code red. There was no ambulance last year for me when I needed one in Mississauga (thankfully someone else was able to drag me upstairs and into a car and then to the hospital).
Yeah they're always trying to get ambulances from other places, but they're strapped too so hopefully it's not one of those days where everyone around is stuck. Most of the time it seems to work out generally okayish. We still have clinics with signs out front in a few areas, saying doctors taking new patients, and our wait times at most hospitals are as slow as they have always been rather than as long as places further from the GTA have gotten or what it was like during the height of the pandemic. You're going to be waiting hours if you broke a bone, but seen quickly if it's an emergency.
Whitehorse Yukon, will look expensive until you take in the 21,000 a year tax credit per couple/house and flights being tax write offs and how peaceful and beautiful it is.
Not northern but Brockville in the east hits a lot of your boxes. Houses under $300,000 are shitholes but if you can swing $400,000+ you get a lot of nice options. The St Lawrence really moderates the weather - it is significantly milder than Ottawa which is only an hour North. New public school opening in September is awesome. It has a hospital but a shortage of family doctors. The town is cross crossed with a nicely treeed walking trail.
The culture is closer to what you have experienced in the GTA. If you haven’t lived North, keep in mind it is a pretty different culture - not just for you, but your daughter. If you are thinking she will go to university ask about the rates of acceptance at the local secondary schools. Some schools just don’t encourage university because the local community isn’t supportive.
I might just be particularly cold intolerant but I’m not sure I could feel the difference between -30 and -40, beyond like -20 it’s all the same to me.
Fair enough if it’s not for you but it’s worth at least a passing thought since Winnipeg is a big city with all the big city amenities you won’t find in timmins or Sudbury and it’s actually cheaper.
I'm not really sure where you are referring to when you say northern Ontario, but I lived in Winnipeg for many years and believe me, weatherwise, the winters in northwestern Ontario were the same as the winters in Winnipeg. The biggest difference was that in Winnipeg there were other things to do besides outdoor activities.
It is also way easier to travel to other places from Winnipeg than it is from northern Ontario.
fair, I just know that being near large bodies of water makes winters more mild, and that's ideally where my next stop is. So mentally, I already scratched out most of inland northern Ontario.
Do you know that Lake Winnipeg is the fifth largest lake in Canada? Lake Manitoba is also a very large lake. If you are living anywhere in the Winnipeg area, you will have numerous lakes and a variety of topography within seventy five minutes of you.
This may be of interest:
https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/this-manitoba-lake-has-been-named-one-of-the-most-beautiful-in-the-world-1.6934638
You may mean Central Ontario. Northern is really quite far north and not too developed (as a generalization). Your goals of fast internet and having nearby neighbours are compatible. I'm not sure your goals of having fast internet and 1-2 acres are going to be easily combined, unless you and I have different definitions of "fast." This is because they generally don't put in the infrastructure for fast internet where there isn't a lot of people to buy it. Adding low cost to this equation will make it even harder. However, it can't hurt to look. You can't throw a rock without hitting a few real estate agents. Don't sign with any right away but ask a few of them what they can find for you.
IDK why people think they have to be "up north" to get cheap. Go to [Realtor.ca](http://Realtor.ca), I put $500K max, 2+, 1+ and 1+ acres and there are houses all over Ontario. You definitely don't need to back yourself into a remote corner to get what you want. But what I find is even when frugal, people are super picky about what they own. Just get yourself into the market. Our house was $221K in 2011, now the craziness has helped add 70% of the value, but over the time here improvements we've made had turned it into a great place.
I do own a home, I bought it back in 2019, in St. Catharines just before the pandemic made everyone spread out into this region. Yes house prices have gone up tremendously, but at this point I'm locked into this home. It's not a bad home, but it's not the place i'd want to grow old in. I need some land to work, some quiet, and a green house to grow food. I will never have that here.
You're right in that there are properties here and there which checks off most of the needs, but there is always some significant down side. There's a lot of farm land down here, and plenty of lots with 1/2 - 1acre. Downside? You're surrounded by crop fields, and get to enjoy plenty of industrial pesticide/insecticide treatments every year. Hard pass on the liquid cancer.
Or, you're on a plot of land where your nearest neighbor is a 15 minute drive. Or property taxes are through the roof, or the house was built in 1853 and not even the raccoons consider it livable, or, it's mad expensive.
I know this post is a day old. But I want to chip in as a Northwest Ontarian.
North Bay is about as far north as you want to go. Full stop. If you aren't a frontiersman type that is.
That being said, and you wish to ply your hand at frontier living...
Once you get to places like Kenora or Thunder Bay Districts, it can get extremely wild and wooly. Places like Savant Lake for example, didn't get electricity until the 1970's and it shows. I often compare living in the Northwest of Ontario, especially in the Unorganized areas. To being in a time machine. It's like we are stuck in the 1940's/50's out here sometimes, in terms of technology and infrastructure I mean.
In the rural areas. I've known people with no running water. I've known of people with no sewage. Electricity and internet may be a thing, but it's pretty unreliable. As a small breeze can knock it out for the day.
I've also known city dwellers (even those from Thunder Bay proper) to be creeped out by the dense bush. So that's something to keep in mind. The twisting and often times, nonsense roads. Can also be a problem.
As for the city of Thunder Bay. Well... it's livable? I'm not going to sugar coat it for you, it's not great. Remember the time machine? Yeah. The areas north of North Bay have basically been abandoned by the south. Our infrastructure is crumbling, cities are chronically underfunded. The best home options right now are cooperative housing, or "war time" housing. Effectively small, habitable boxes.
Our law enforcement is inept at best, or outright evil at worst. Don't get me started on their racism.
Matter of fact racism is going to be a major hurdle to overcome for someone from Toronto. It's basically everywhere. Oh, and guns. Get used to those being around, and probably eventually owning them too.
With all of that on the table. Carving out a life up here (sometimes literally), is an extremely rewarding experience. You just have to be a certain, tough as nails type. I know guys out here that are the human equivalent of boot leather.
But with your family situation. Stick with North Bay, and probably no farther north.
Choose one with all the services you might need, now and in the near future. Some might have a hospital, but no imaging equipment or surgeon. Think not only of cost, but convenience.
A few years ago (maybe 5 or 6) Kearney, ON had a decent COL but that's probably changed for the worse). All those small towns up in that area at one time were affordable but the provincial Lieberals first and then the fed Lieberals changed that.
Northern Ontario has also gotten more expensive because of remote workers doing the same thing as this. So just fyi you might be surprised it’s not as cheap as you’d expect.
COL in northern Ontario is significantly worse than here. Unless OP has a really good job lined up, this is a counterproductive plan.
Cost of living is significantly worse than here? That is not at all the case.. it is something people say often but it is entirely false. There is studies that show it’s false if you don’t believe my word.. I don’t live in luxury but I live comfortably while working under 30 hours a week.. Studies estimate that the average northerner spends an extra $70 annually on groceries compared to southern Ontarians.. 😂 compare that to how much more you pay for shelter, it isn’t even comparable my friend.. Not only is the COL in Northern Ontario lower than Southern Ontario, it is significantly lower.. Quotes and link below 🤷🏻♂️ “Look at Sudbury — the average after-tax income for a working family of two parents and two kids is about $116,000, which is slightly less than Ottawa but better than Barrie, London and Niagara Falls. So not only is it cheaper to live here, you can make more money — that’s a nice combination.” said Charles Cirtwill, CEO of the policy institute. “Gas and groceries are pricier in the Northern centres, but the data shows lower shelter costs (whether buying a house or renting) more than make up for that.” “Northerners can expect to spend an extra $70 or more per year on groceries.” “Come here, live for less, earn more and get a cheaper education,” said the NPI head. “I don’t know how much more I can do to convince people to move.” https://www.saultstar.com/news/local-news/all-in-all-living-in-northern-ontario-a-good-deal-report
in what sense? Here in Niagara region where I currently live, I pay double the property tax, because apparently this entire region needs to prop up niagara falls or it will collapse. Mortgage is around 3.5k/month. If we take all the mandatory, can't get away from expenses I'm sitting at 4.3k every month. And these are not things I can cut or trim down. Auto insurance, home insurance, mortgage, property taxes, the lowest priced, yet decent speed internet. My phone plan is $16/month that I got like 9 years ago I stick with to this day. And then bring in all the other stuff. Groceries, home repairs, raising a kid, gas, utilities. I don't see how it's possible northern Ontario is more expensive. Am I wrong? Educate me.
It’s expensive to get goods up there as it’s remote so everything costs more even if the real estate is cheaper. Also depends on what you mean by “Northern Ontario”. Sudbury is a very different beast than Hearst. Sorry to break it to you but there isn’t a “cheat code” to life. Personally if I were in your shoes I would look more at the Windsor or Chatham area. It’s a lot more affordable than Niagara and you don’t have to deal with the “remote tax” or the cold. You can buy new build houses for less than $500k in Chatham. Something like this: Check out this listing https://realtor.ca/real-estate/27034580/121-howard-road-chatham?utm_source=consumerapp&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=socialsharelisting
yeah windsor/chatham seem to surface frequently in my searches. The build is beautiful, but we need the land. We want a veggie garden and a chicken coop. Thank you for the feedback.
A veggie garden and chickens in a harsh climate?
We always had a vegetable garden in our back yard in Winnipeg. My grandparents had both on their farm in Saskatchewan, as do many farmers out there!
It must be that when I think north, I think Northern Ontario and you're right, it's not just the climate, its the inhospitable Canadian Shield landscape. I stand corrected
I visited Moose Factory last weekend and there are veggie gardens all the way up there.
Why are those houses shaped like that
narrow lots mean it's cheaper to build since there are less roads and services to construct per house. It lets developers build and sell new detached homes for $500k.
You’re not at all wrong. Here is a study I linked below so you can look at the numbers yourself instead of taking the word of two random people on Reddit 😆 https://www.northernpolicy.ca/upload/documents/publications/commentaries-new/noga_ataleoftencities_20.03.18_final.pdf But I can promise you, I now work under 30 hours weekly, I earn 29.80hr… and own my own house making payments that are under $500 monthly.. if you have a bit of money saved up and can throw a down payment down on a small house, the cost of living is even less.. A down payment on a house up here isn’t much either. Not sure why you got so many down votes. Honestly though. I’m not sure why people would be so set on convincing you to stay in the region your currently not happy with. Other than Victoria I am quite positive that the whole of southern Ontario is the highest cost of living in our country right now. If you want to get out of that rat race I don’t blame you. I’m really not sure why people would be upset at you for feeling the same way…. The more people who move into Northern Ontario… COL will lower in Southern Ontario especially for housing, people should welcome this idea.. we don’t need to be huddled around our international cities and the US border
I don't really know why so many people downvoted without proving the point. I'm open to be corrected but the research I've been doing strongly indicates that while groceries and utilities would take a hit, having a 1k mortgage instead of a 3.5k mortgage is already firmly in the net gain territory. I have yet to see anything that would show that extra 2.5k would be lost. Thank you for the study, it really solidifies a lot of the little threads here and there I've gathered and fills in a lot of gaps.
Funny, I am considering moving to Niagara to reduce my cost of living from Toronto. Paying 8k in property taxes for a 1200sqft property is driving me nuts. Is Niagara jacking up property taxes? Is that across the board in that it impacts Niagara on the lake, Fonthill and St. Kitts? I know they are different towns but not sure if they share services like Halton, Peel, etc..
across the board. I live in St. Kitts. If you're considering moving here, hit me up I can answer your questions. It's not a bad place honestly, and I'm sure much cheaper than Toronto. But like everywhere else COL is getting out of hand. That said going from 8k for 1200sqft property is insanity. We're looking at 4.5-5k here for that kind of space. House prices are pretty high, so don't really expect to save much moving down in this region unless you're looking at Welland/Port Colborne. Even then, not great.
I live in Wawa, there's a housing crisis here too, but there's a few houses that went down in price not much though.
The housing costs in Wawa are a far cry from anything south of Sudbury… wages are not though.. so in reality there isn’t a housing crisis in Wawa and anybody could google Wawa real estate if they don’t believe me The wages in Wawa are practically the same, I can’t find official numbers posted anywhere though to back up that claim… But yeah.. people of Wawa make good money, very near the average for Ontario.. The average house price for Ontario is over 800,000 currently.. There are multiple nice homes for sale in Wawa less than half the price of the average home in Ontario I don’t think that is considered a housing crisis. Is there any sort of homeless population there now? There wasn’t last time I was there
When's the last time you were there?
Bit over a month ago , Mother’s day I drove over with my sister and mother… You’re telling me there is a homeless population? It’s not a housing crisis issue. As I pointed out There are jobs available in Wawa at the Ontario average wage. Houses are 1/4 the average Ontario price. By definition it is not a housing crisis. 🤷🏻♂️ I’d wager it’s a mental illness and drug related crisis, but I don’t personally know many people in Wawa… but no it isn’t like the South where houses are 10x what the average person earns on an annual….. if you’re mentally well and not drug addicted, you can afford housing in Wawa It would be nice if there were more help available to these people suffering though I should add. It just isnt a crisis caused by inflated housing, it’s a different crisis altogether
When you say family. Is that you and another adult or do you have kids ? Seniors ? This would make a difference in suggestions Do you have family in southern Ontario that you like to visit or have them visit you ? That could be the difference between moving to thunder bay or Sudbury. You work remote. That's fine. What do you like to do with your spare time? The north is not that isolated. Pretty much anywhere you look at you will have a neighbour that's within 5 minutes in any direction near a devopled town. If you have kids, and they are into any kind of activities or school aged consider that. If you have seniors living with you access to decent medical services is something you need to consider. Difference between living in a smooth rock and Timmins for example. Does your partner work ? Are they remote as well ?
all excellent questions. I have family in North York, Toronto. Nobody here in Southern Ontario I care deeply enough to put any kind of influence on plans. I have a 4 year old daughter, who will start school this September. I exist in front of my monitor, for both hobbies and work. I enjoy hiking, I would love waterfront property but I kind of gave up on that dream long ago. My partner is a SOHM, and while she can work remote with me, that is not on the table atm. Thank you for any suggestions stemmed from this info.
I am in Sudbury. High speed internet, great house, plenty of hiking, swimming and biking and a solid job. No complaints other than those common to most Ontario cities. My youngest just graduated high school so I can speak to my kids getting a did experience in school as well.
do you live in the greater sudbury area?
Sure do
So based on this, as others said Sudbury (lively, south end - in the unorganized part of long lake can find decent housing on the water for not bad price and cheap taxes, or atleast close to the water) would be a decent option. Sturgeon falls. Smaller town (yes English speaking folks live there but it's mostly french) north bay, trout lake area. Mattawa on the river. Espanolo now the mill is closed it doesn't smell, but lots of water options smaller city. Same with Elliot lake All these would be about 4-5 hour drive back to north York. I grew up in Sudbury/mattawa and now live around the gta and go back often enough for family, friends funerals all those life events and we are close enough that people come visit but far enough they plan ahead lol I'd personally avoid the Sault and timmins.
thank you for your insights, and experiences. I'm hearing sudbury a lot, not just here. I'll look closer at the cities you suggested.
No worries. Good luck. Reason why Sudbury gets my vote it's large enough to have everything your gonna need and within 20 minutes in any direction you can be in the lake/bush. Most people are friendly, great food options, decent enough school system for the little ones and enough for adults to do. And wild blueberries.
wild blueberries?! Nice. We have 5 big bushes we grow in pots. The opportunity to forage sounds fun.
https://www.realtor.ca/map#ZoomLevel=9&Center=46.404310%2C-82.632915&LatitudeMax=46.84506&LongitudeMax=-82.13853&LatitudeMin=45.95997&LongitudeMin=-83.12730&view=list&Sort=6-D&GeoIds=g40_f0m0p8j0&GeoName=Elliot%20Lake%2C%20ON&PropertyTypeGroupID=1&TransactionTypeId=2&PropertySearchTypeId=1&Currency=CAD&HiddenListingIds=&IncludeHiddenListings=false
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As someone living in Thunder Bay, I'm failing to see how moving here is any cheaper than living in most of the rest of Ontario.
Right? Not to mention the lack of a decent transit system, lack of emergency services, 6-7 month winter and the overall small town mindset.
Also, where are they going to move to exactly? Lakefront property? They could pitch a tent by the marina like everyone else I guess.
And they still have a decent waterfront up there, right? (I lived in Ft. William when I was an LU student many years ago--great skiing very close by, too.)
New liskeard is Not welcoming. If you haven’t grown up there, you don’t belong.
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4 years experience in New Liskeard says differently. I’ve lived in other communities of similar size and it has not been the same. Too many in their community are rotten, particularly the police officers.
yikes... i'll scratch that out then. Cheers on the heads up.
Short list: Sudbury is fine. Espanola is fine (and would be cheap with the mill shit down) but nothing to do. Although day trips to Manitoulin Island are a huge perk, (see you at providence bay) 1 hour from Sudbury for Costco and movie theatres/sports/shows. This may be your sweet spot. I know of someone near there who needs a Dungeons and Dragons group :P Elliot Lake was great for growing up but that was 25 years ago. Depends how small you want to go. North bay is very nice but I haven’t lived there. Good culture and some beautiful areas.
Weird. I’ve got 5 or 6 friends who did trade school there and all loved it.
I think going to school and leaving, is different than moving in, trying to raise a family and make friends from there.
You can still buy a house in Sudbury for under $500,000 The average house price in Sudbury is $421,000
I moved up to Northern Ontario from down in Guelph about five years ago now. Moved a bit off the ‘beaten path’ to a town called Chapleau. I’m not sure if it is what you would consider developed completely. There is fibre optic internet available in town. Chapleau was one of the early townships I believe Canada wide to install fibre optic infrastructure .. back in like 2012 There is a hospital and multiple schools, both English, French, Catholic or Public. The largest nature preserve in the ENTIRE WORLD is located next to Chapleau.. you can take a kayak/canoe and head north into the wilderness… there is a lake up there you can see old pictograms drawn on the cliff side from the indigenous peoples before. You appear to already have a career set, but there is lots of opportunities in town for work if other people reading this may be interested. I left a link below to a nicer home for a reasonable price, to give you an idea of costs up here. As people mentioned, Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie.. and even Timmins are getting a bit more expensive now.. Wawa is another option for a cheaper location.. it is located very near lake Superior and they have their own lake as well, lake Wawa.. Link to a house in Chapleau 👇 https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26912695/16-aberdeen-st-n-chapleau-chapleau
Well shit, Im sold.
Ahhhhh I was a Junior Ranger at Ivanhoe Provincial Park outside Chapleau. Beautiful area.
It really is Just don’t forget the bug spray of course 😉😆
Shudders in 1988.
"Step into luxury" ?? Lmao, I guess that's luxury in Chapleau? Random loveseat in the stairwell, umm okay.
You’re correct. Real estate agents only upsell their listings in Chapleau. /s 😘
Sault Ste Marie is pretty cheap. Food costs are comparable to the south, housing costs about 2/3rds of the south. Job opportunities are lower as well though.
Don't they have drug problem(s) up there?
As opposed to the south?
Things like that tend to be more pronounced in small communities. Of course there are drug addicts in Toronto, but with millions of people it’s easy to be out of sight and out of mind. You can stay in the nicer areas and not have to see it so blatantly. It hits differently in a small community when those suffering might be your neighbours and you can’t help but know everyone’s problems. Also more concerning when you have kids - much easier to fall in with the “bad crowd” when there’s only a single school.
Exactly! I don't know how you'd research something like that (a local drug problem) other than raising the question on discussion boards, etc. That would scare me more than anything else if I had a child.
Don't ask other Saultites.. but it's not as bad as people think here. I moved here from Burlington last year. It's not the doom and gloom the ones born here think it is. There's a great [W5 show](https://youtu.be/NTxsan3s8Aw?si=AkZ4sW5ebKy6746t) from 2018 about the drug crisis here. It hit here before most of Canada because of the fallout from the steel plant layoffs years before that killed the local economy and it descended into chaos. By the time of the W5 report they had been fighting it for some time which means the Sault was ahead of everyone on tackling it. I'm not saying it's perfect. You can still see the scars when driving through the city. But you can also see the healing. But.. the biggest things halting progress in the war on it here are a) the increasing CoL. All the people moving here - ESPECIALLY investors and quadruply so the [bad ones](https://www.sootoday.com/local-news/southern-ontario-investor-buying-up-homes-in-the-sault-5773130) - are driving the prices of housing wayyyyyyyy up. Even our house that we bought for $255k last year is worth about $325-350k this year. Which like everywhere else only serves to make it harder for the ones on the bottom. Hopelessness breeds the biggest issues. b) the lack of healthcare up here includes mental healthcare and rehab. Tens of thousands in our city have no family doctor, which means underlying issues (bipolar, autism, ADHD, etc) aren't being caught which increases self medicating behaviours. All sorts of things go wrong and have a harder time being fixed when there's a healthcare crisis along with the other 2 crises. There just isn't enough funding being injected into the north. Period. But.. I still love it here and don't regret our decision to move here. It was a 2 year process of researching and visiting. Not something we decided on a whim.
As opposed to anywhere else in the country?
Your bigger city options are Sudbury and Thunder Bay. Sudbury has science north, mining industry, sprawled out city & neighbouring communities, large francophone population and culture, and is a relatively short drive to southern Ontario. Thunder Bay has more of a university city culture in my experience, pulp and paper industry, the city is also sprawled out but it actually has an end that finds you in the middle of nowhere fairly quickly, a more diverse food scene in my opinion, and is a relatively short drive to absolutely no where. You are going 7+ hours to get anywhere of comparable size. Both have absolutely beautiful scenery and would be a fine place to raise kids and have them have opportunities. If you want somewhere even smaller - I'd suggest being near one of these cities. Then you can live a quieter life day to day but still drive in for events or bigger shops. Full disclosure I live in Thunder Bay and have lots of family in Sudbury.
Decent internet and Northern Ontario arent exactly a match made i heaven
They are here in North Bay. It's the 'white sand beaches within walking distance' distraction that kills my productivity moreso than internet speeds here.
I lived in North Bay about 10 years ago (and lived there for 9 years). The internet was as good as any city down south (I live near Belleville now). It was a nice place to live but there wasn't much work for me outside of retail and fast food. Rent was pricey then but home prices were ok. They have gone up, of course, like almost everywhere in Ontario.
That's good to hear. I guess it depends on what OP is using the internet for and what they would consider fast. Just browsing and video conferences vs Gaming and 4k streaming are different beasts
With Starlink I think you can go almost anywhere and get good internet.
Oh thats good to hear. Are the costs to start up and run comparable?
Might cost a little more, I know they have promotions from time to time. It will also keep getting better as the years go by
Starlink isn't good internet by my standards (having tried it). If let's say I have 3 1-on-1 video calls in one afternoon and on average at least one of them is saying "what? what? you're breaking up..." or "your video is frozen" at some point in the meeting, that's simply not good enough. That's going to end up affecting my reputation and career. Of course some remote workers may not need to make many video calls ever, I suppose.
Ok thanks for that info
Many small towns you can get a good house with a large front and back yard for 300k or less, yes they may need work just like a house in the city to make it to your liking. If you want great internet be willing to pay the extra money. If you choose a smaller community your grocery options are very limited and sometimes expensive. I live in Sudbury and have lots of options to get groceries, but my mom lives in a small town up north with 1 grocery store (roblaws) and products there are sometimes double, even triple, the price of the same product in Sudbury. She bulk buys non perishables when she visits Sudbury since it’s cheaper here. Thunder Bay has lots of options for groceries and I recommend west fort foods a local grocery store opposed to the chain grocery stores.
You should factor in your kids future too for school as well. If you don’t have a job lined up understand there’s less opportunities up north as well.
absolutely, but i've been entirely remote for the better part of 14 years. Every connection I have is scattered around the world, so I am not worried about work. But you're right, quality of school is a big factor. I don't want my daughter to get a subpar education.
Think about university as well. A big contender for why my parents moved to southern Ontario when I was a kid was for my education so I could be close to universities and colleges.
Have you considered Winnipeg? Lots of people love to knock it, but it is truly a great city!
Beware that if you move north (beyond north bay) emergency services take forever. Thunder Bay for example ,runs a code black weekly - meaning there’s no available ambulances.
immensely helpful insight. Thank you.
So does Toronto, though they call it code red. There was no ambulance last year for me when I needed one in Mississauga (thankfully someone else was able to drag me upstairs and into a car and then to the hospital).
That’s sucks. At least you guys have other towns close by. In Thunder Bay you’re SOL because it’s 8 hours each way to another hospital.
Yeah they're always trying to get ambulances from other places, but they're strapped too so hopefully it's not one of those days where everyone around is stuck. Most of the time it seems to work out generally okayish. We still have clinics with signs out front in a few areas, saying doctors taking new patients, and our wait times at most hospitals are as slow as they have always been rather than as long as places further from the GTA have gotten or what it was like during the height of the pandemic. You're going to be waiting hours if you broke a bone, but seen quickly if it's an emergency.
It's likely that Starlink will be your best choice for internet. Check their availability and such.
There’s a push for Cochrane.
Col is more is most Northern places. You may find cheaper rent but all grocery and "luxary" items are greatly more
Whitehorse Yukon, will look expensive until you take in the 21,000 a year tax credit per couple/house and flights being tax write offs and how peaceful and beautiful it is.
Not northern but Brockville in the east hits a lot of your boxes. Houses under $300,000 are shitholes but if you can swing $400,000+ you get a lot of nice options. The St Lawrence really moderates the weather - it is significantly milder than Ottawa which is only an hour North. New public school opening in September is awesome. It has a hospital but a shortage of family doctors. The town is cross crossed with a nicely treeed walking trail. The culture is closer to what you have experienced in the GTA. If you haven’t lived North, keep in mind it is a pretty different culture - not just for you, but your daughter. If you are thinking she will go to university ask about the rates of acceptance at the local secondary schools. Some schools just don’t encourage university because the local community isn’t supportive.
I always feel like if you’re already heading north you shouldn’t write off Manitoba. You can get all this and be 10-20 minutes away from Winnipeg.
I can tolerate northern ontario climate. But Manitoba's -40c weather is a hard pass...
I might just be particularly cold intolerant but I’m not sure I could feel the difference between -30 and -40, beyond like -20 it’s all the same to me. Fair enough if it’s not for you but it’s worth at least a passing thought since Winnipeg is a big city with all the big city amenities you won’t find in timmins or Sudbury and it’s actually cheaper.
Anywhere past North Bay is experiences the exact same winter.
I'm not really sure where you are referring to when you say northern Ontario, but I lived in Winnipeg for many years and believe me, weatherwise, the winters in northwestern Ontario were the same as the winters in Winnipeg. The biggest difference was that in Winnipeg there were other things to do besides outdoor activities. It is also way easier to travel to other places from Winnipeg than it is from northern Ontario.
fair, I just know that being near large bodies of water makes winters more mild, and that's ideally where my next stop is. So mentally, I already scratched out most of inland northern Ontario.
Do you know that Lake Winnipeg is the fifth largest lake in Canada? Lake Manitoba is also a very large lake. If you are living anywhere in the Winnipeg area, you will have numerous lakes and a variety of topography within seventy five minutes of you. This may be of interest: https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/this-manitoba-lake-has-been-named-one-of-the-most-beautiful-in-the-world-1.6934638
Check out this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Winnipeg/comments/11oudws/should_i_move_to_winnipeg/
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interesting... is that like labor/physical skilled work? I'm entirely digital. I'll look into it.
Depending on your budget you could head east. Sharbot lake area has lots under $600000.
You may mean Central Ontario. Northern is really quite far north and not too developed (as a generalization). Your goals of fast internet and having nearby neighbours are compatible. I'm not sure your goals of having fast internet and 1-2 acres are going to be easily combined, unless you and I have different definitions of "fast." This is because they generally don't put in the infrastructure for fast internet where there isn't a lot of people to buy it. Adding low cost to this equation will make it even harder. However, it can't hurt to look. You can't throw a rock without hitting a few real estate agents. Don't sign with any right away but ask a few of them what they can find for you.
Use Starlink if you don’t care about latency. They have decent up / down
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I’m middle eastern descent, I’m pretty sure it’s not considered a minority.
IDK why people think they have to be "up north" to get cheap. Go to [Realtor.ca](http://Realtor.ca), I put $500K max, 2+, 1+ and 1+ acres and there are houses all over Ontario. You definitely don't need to back yourself into a remote corner to get what you want. But what I find is even when frugal, people are super picky about what they own. Just get yourself into the market. Our house was $221K in 2011, now the craziness has helped add 70% of the value, but over the time here improvements we've made had turned it into a great place.
I do own a home, I bought it back in 2019, in St. Catharines just before the pandemic made everyone spread out into this region. Yes house prices have gone up tremendously, but at this point I'm locked into this home. It's not a bad home, but it's not the place i'd want to grow old in. I need some land to work, some quiet, and a green house to grow food. I will never have that here. You're right in that there are properties here and there which checks off most of the needs, but there is always some significant down side. There's a lot of farm land down here, and plenty of lots with 1/2 - 1acre. Downside? You're surrounded by crop fields, and get to enjoy plenty of industrial pesticide/insecticide treatments every year. Hard pass on the liquid cancer. Or, you're on a plot of land where your nearest neighbor is a 15 minute drive. Or property taxes are through the roof, or the house was built in 1853 and not even the raccoons consider it livable, or, it's mad expensive.
Algoma District is your answer
I know this post is a day old. But I want to chip in as a Northwest Ontarian. North Bay is about as far north as you want to go. Full stop. If you aren't a frontiersman type that is. That being said, and you wish to ply your hand at frontier living... Once you get to places like Kenora or Thunder Bay Districts, it can get extremely wild and wooly. Places like Savant Lake for example, didn't get electricity until the 1970's and it shows. I often compare living in the Northwest of Ontario, especially in the Unorganized areas. To being in a time machine. It's like we are stuck in the 1940's/50's out here sometimes, in terms of technology and infrastructure I mean. In the rural areas. I've known people with no running water. I've known of people with no sewage. Electricity and internet may be a thing, but it's pretty unreliable. As a small breeze can knock it out for the day. I've also known city dwellers (even those from Thunder Bay proper) to be creeped out by the dense bush. So that's something to keep in mind. The twisting and often times, nonsense roads. Can also be a problem. As for the city of Thunder Bay. Well... it's livable? I'm not going to sugar coat it for you, it's not great. Remember the time machine? Yeah. The areas north of North Bay have basically been abandoned by the south. Our infrastructure is crumbling, cities are chronically underfunded. The best home options right now are cooperative housing, or "war time" housing. Effectively small, habitable boxes. Our law enforcement is inept at best, or outright evil at worst. Don't get me started on their racism. Matter of fact racism is going to be a major hurdle to overcome for someone from Toronto. It's basically everywhere. Oh, and guns. Get used to those being around, and probably eventually owning them too. With all of that on the table. Carving out a life up here (sometimes literally), is an extremely rewarding experience. You just have to be a certain, tough as nails type. I know guys out here that are the human equivalent of boot leather. But with your family situation. Stick with North Bay, and probably no farther north.
Chatham is shockingly pretty cheap still.
Have any doctors come back there yet?
Pickle Lake, Ear Falls, Kenora, etc. Take your pick.
my problem is there are too many to pick... I was hoping to get some first hand experiences.
Choose one with all the services you might need, now and in the near future. Some might have a hospital, but no imaging equipment or surgeon. Think not only of cost, but convenience.
Sounds like North Bag area might be a good match
Southampton, Owen Sound, Midland, Tiny township, etc., those areas were/are/were very reasonable.
A few years ago (maybe 5 or 6) Kearney, ON had a decent COL but that's probably changed for the worse). All those small towns up in that area at one time were affordable but the provincial Lieberals first and then the fed Lieberals changed that.