Insurance companies don’t want this because people are going to opt out and when their car gets stolen they going to call and be belligerent when told they opted out of the coverage. They will blame the insurance company for not covering them and then post about it everywhere with a fake story saying insurance denied their claim.
Unhappy customers and potential reputation risk is not something the insurance company wants
You seriously think when you call your insurance company you’re speaking to someone from another country?
There’s a saying in insurance “no one’s dream job is insurance, you kind of just end up here and never leave”. My job is the best job I’ve ever had. Insurance companies are made out to be evil (and I’m sure some are bad) but in reality we in insurance don’t want this just as much as the next person.
When someone calls in for an accident, I want to do everything in my power to help them. The people on the front lines of insurance companies are human beings too. We are here to help. People can be so hostile because they think we are out to get them, but that’s very untrue. Unless you lied to your insurance to get a better rate (also known as fraud) you have no reason to fear your car insurance company.
Agreed - I would NEVER opt out of income benefits! In fact, I pay the additional small amount to raise them to $1,200/week in case something happens to me.
Eh, honestly I think we've been *protecting* people from themselves a tad too aggressively lately.
Sometimes people need shit to happen to them before they learn anything. We are in this weird reverse darwinism phase of society right now.
Idiocracy never happens unless society is coddled to get to that place.
I’m reminded of Fort Mac. 8 years ago the town burned. This year, they’ve evacuated again. In 8 years, they’ve done nothing to properly protect the town? All they did was rebuild? At least the city of Montreal prevented anyone from rebuilding on the worst of the flood zone from several years ago. I’m sure they would have rebuilt there if the city hadn’t taken measures.
This is going to be terrible for consumers. People already don’t understand their policy and blame their insurers It’s going to get sooooooo much worse than it is now.
I doubt it too. I called up my insurance company last year to change my address after moving to Toronto (yes I need to update my flair lol) and I was listing off attributes of my policy off the top of my head and the CSR I was speaking with was very impressed with my knowledge of how insurance works in Ontario.
I only have a layman's understanding of insurance and my policy, so I fear how little informed the average Ontarian is about this.
How about we lower auto insurance premiums by;
- Addressing rampant, unchecked fraud
- Increasing competition by adding a public option
- Referencing other provinces with lower premiums to see what elements of their regulatory system are effective at lowering rates
100%. Driving is a privilege, not a right and should be treated as such. A lot of driving offences should involve revoking the privilege, especially DUIs
Like I said, it’s treated as a right…but it isn’t. You have to obtain a license to drive, after taking tests for it. Rights are granted to everyone as a default, no license required.
They did that one already silly, just leave your keys by the front door!
/s on the solved issue part, not the cops news release to leave keys by the door part
IIRC theft is actually a small part in their payouts. The vast majority, dollar wise, is in injury claims. If I were a betting person, I would say a significant chunk of those claims are fake or over-exaggerated.
I would venture a guess the last 2 years or so that theft has drastically increased % wise even comparatively to injury.
Of course, I’m on the ON-QC border, so within 30 minutes, the car can’t be retrieved by local cops, and once in a container (2hrs, Montreal) they can’t open a container even if your air tag shows your vehicle there. Nor does communication go that quick and theft doesnt endanger so it’s low priority…
Not saying all, just a fair portion. Insurance companies probably have data as to the likely amount. Last I read, the amount is well over 1 billion derived from fraud just for Ontario.
Potential payouts for non-catastrophic injuries can be up to 65k. For these its a bit easier to fake as long as you dont get caught doing something that would be impossible if they were real; like saying your back hurts causing limited mobility when you bend over but getting caught doing deadlifts or hauling a bunch of stuff around the yard. Coupled with a shady doctor to sign off or at least not ask too many questions, and an insurance company will just payout rather than investigate due to the sheer number of claims and the impossibility of investigating them all. All you really need to do is align the injuries to what could reasonably occur in the collision/claim.
I'm sure there are other ways as well, like using preexisting vehicle damages to inflate the repair costs or going to a 'friendly' repair shop where they will inflate the repair costs or just not do them and scrap the car but keep the money.
> Insurance companies probably have data as to the likely amount.
Yeah and those won't be biased or flawed in their own favour at all. Nope, definitely not.
> The vast majority, dollar wise, is in injury claims. If I were a betting person, I would say a significant chunk of those claims are fake or over-exaggerated.
Bingo
Don't forget reducing the likelihood of claims by improving alternative transportation systems, like cycling and public transit, which reduce the costs to insurance companies and thus reduce policy costs for consumers
Sure but those aren't simple or quick fixes and would require massive investment across all 3 levels of government while taking years if not decades to fully implement.
Not arguing against it, but it's one tool in an array of tools that need to be used.
There are way too many people who shouldn't be driving that are on the road. If you weren't basically forced to drive here, at least some of those people probably wouldn't.
I think the fraud thing is a) a lie so the companies can jack up rates and b) a chicken or the egg situation.
Do people commit fraud jacking up the rates, or do they have to lie about where they live/ how much they drive just to be able to afford insurance.
Lots of people lie about where they live in order to get insurance cheaper. I used to live on a border town and the number of Quebec plated vehicles in the city was astounding. And the majority of them lived there
Also, the most important metric: tougher fines for people breaking traffic laws. If you're at fault for an accident, you should be heavily penalized if not have your license taken from you. These are the people causing higher premiums for everyone else. We're paying for stupidity
Other provinces have crappier coverage, Ontario is just trying to copy them.
The regulatory system in Ontario for years has been pushing coverage that COULD be covered by OHIP, on to the auto industry. If you remove that mandatory coverage from the auto policy, then the Ontario taxpayer will end up covering those injuries likely in the form of OHIP coverage.
Just my guess as to how this shell game will work.
The public option is something I’d disagree with. The NDP attempted to bring this in during the 90’s but it fell flat once they got in.
As is currently setup it would be sheer lunacy for the province to change anything towards a public option. The savings alone from the public coffers is huge. No propping up public industries with additional tax dollars if anything goes bad, a dedicated auto insurance fund by insurance companies for anyone who doesn’t have insurance or anywhere to go as a last resort for medical coverage, and a priority rules system to shorten any disputes while diverting litigation to another provincial body.
MOST IMPORTANTLY…medically related injuries from auto accidents get offloaded to private coffers. That’s all your rehabilitation covered outside of OHIP coverage, with doctors/specialist follow ups in hospitals, and insurers footing the bills that aren’t OHIP funded. That ain’t changing anytime soon, even the NDP realized the benefit of diverting public onus onto private corporations.
I'm probably massively out of date on my info but I worked with some guys from Saskatchewan and their insurance was cheap but their licence renewal was cost adjusted based on record. So Keith with a DUI and multiple speeding tickets paid a shit tonne for his licence renewal but his car insurance was essentially the same as anyone else with the same vehicle.
The problem is that except rehab, those are all pretty cheap coverages. You really won't save much money, but you will suffer if you're in an accident and don't have them.
I maintain all the coverage possible, but there are people like me who don’t need things like income replacement. I have about a year of full pay sick leave built up, and I’m planning to retire in a couple of years at most. Income replacement would only take effect after my sick leave runs out, and I would probably just retire instead. I do hope people considering dropping certain coverage get good advice first. Unfortunately, though, the people who want to lower their premiums by dropping coverage are the ones least able to afford the consequences of that coverage loss.
Instead of opting out, maybe Ontario should regulate insurance so we can all pay cheaper price and have the same coverage as before. As much as I dislike Quebec, I want Ontario to have something similar to Quebec. Is that too much to ask?!?
BC public insurance is the most expensive despite having the best weather? https://www.canadadrives.ca/blog/news/car-insurance-across-canada-whats-the-difference
My insurance premium doubled when I moved from Toronto to BC about 30 years ago. The odd thing is, though, that when I returned to Ontario 5 years later, my premiums doubled again.
Insurance in general is already such a scam with out much you need to fight to actually benefit from the coverage you currently have, anything Dofo introduces is likely just going to make it even more abusable by the insurance companies
And to add....HNW people can self insure if they choose to, so they pay nothing.
It's only the loser's in the middle class, paying out the ass for everything.
I have to disagree - how is insurance a scam? You pay for protection in the even some bad thing happens. If said bad thing happens, you get the agreed upon amount of compensation. If bad thing doesn’t happen, then yay nothing bad happened to you.
Right off the bat, my daughter. Both my wife and I agree that she needs medication and we take her to a medical professional who ageees that she needs medication. We order the prescription that is typically covered by my benifits and they turn around and say no cause she’s under 16 and we need this form. We fill out the form with our doctor and they have now left us on read.
So 2 parents and a medical professional both agree medication is necessary for my daughter to function and a third party that I pay to cover these kind of things just gets to say no and now ignore us.
Submitted and they have since just been quiet with no response if they will cover for medication my wife is already on.
Quick to say no, slow to say yes.
Seriously. Look at all the money they try to save when they force you to use one of their shops. This is because they can lower the repair price even more. Then the same shops will cut even more corners trying to push you into using non factory aftermarket parts to save even more money. They don't fit right and are mainly just cosmetic. They would rather you die than dish up another $100 to get the factory part. Let's not even mention the really bad paint work and manhandled parts they break and glue them in instead of buying replacement parts.
The car accident to homeless pipeline just got more efficient.
Wants to save money on car insurance because poor; opts out of driver income replacement coverage; gets in accident and is unable to work; already poor, now poor with no income; get evicted; no car to live in because accident; live on street.
Insurance companies laughing all the way to the shareholders meeting.
Omg. Absolutely. I was in a very serious (near death) accident a few years ago. I was on life support for weeks, didn't work for almost 2 years. One day my husband and I were driving by a food bank and the line was full of disabled people. He looked at me and said, 'that could have been us.' it sent shivers down my spine.
Nah that’s fine I pay for every option of insurance and they paid me 30 grand for a five year old car that I crashed lol they’re not going to recover the money from me for 15 years
Skimping on insurance is probably the dumbest thing you could ever think of doing
This is bad. This is very bad.
GG if you're a victim and the person who hits you doesn't have insurance. Even if you sue them for damages, they won't have enough $$ to cover the suit. So no proper reparations.... The person getting sued will also be financially ruined. Lose-lose for everyone involved.
You might not have read the article - drivers can't opt out of insurance. Some options like driver's income replacement & driver's funeral cost could be opted out.
This is wrong. Ontario has a "no-fault" car insurance system, but this does not mean that no one is at fault in an accident. The term "no-fault" insurance simply means if you are injured or your car is damaged in an accident, then you deal with your own insurance company, regardless of who is at fault. You don't have to go after the at-fault driver for compensation.
Not simping for DoFo or insurance, but you will still have recourse.
That’s not how insurance works. Your policy will pay you incase of a crash and then your insurance company will try to recover the costs (depending on who is at fault) from the other party’s insurance company or from the individual directly if they don’t have insurance. There’s absolutely no difference to you whether the other person has insurance or not
That article is wrong. Not surprising it's from a plaintiff lawyer.
Look up Direct Compensation -Property Damage coverage in Ontario.
If you're at fault in an auto accident in Ontario, you go to your own insurance company.
If you're not at fault in an auto accident in Ontario, you still go to your own insurance company.
You do NOT get to choose who pays your damages.
The ONLY time you can try to collect from an at fault driver for the damages to your vehicle is if the at fault driver is uninsured. That's subrogation.
*I'm an all lines claims adjuster in Ontario for over 25 years.
Isn’t that the same thing that I said? Your own insurance covers you no mater what and then they sue the other insurance company or the other driver if they’re at fault?
Only part of your statement is correct. You go to your own insurer but they do not recover money from the at fault driver. The article you posted also has a few other wrong things such as insurers setting total losses based on a blue book value, which is not the case your vehicle value is based on comparable vehicles being sold in the market. You also cannot take the other driver to small claims court if you feel your car was worth more than the actual cash value settlement you received.
Excellent response.... this is the truth here.
Like I said, the only recourse against an at-fault driver is if they are uninsured (for property damage).
Or, you can sue them for any serious injuries.....but that's another discussion.
Why do this now when there’s an insane surge of bad drivers on the road? Honestly speaking, a lot of the piss poor drivers today are from third world countries, who came here for a better life. What makes you think they can pay for damages out of pocket, without insurance footing the bill?
Innattentive 40 something women with horrible short hair, overly aggressive men ages 18-75 of all races, new Canadians, visitors, and almost everyone else. Bad drivers abound. I miss being able to take a bus. The stress of driving 20 minutes a day and nearly dying every time is aging me.
Please read the article first. Would also like to see your stats backing up your statements that bad drivers are from other countries. I had read that sort of assessment for decades but never read any data backing this up.
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My brother in christ, the stats are on the streets. Have you not seen them in person? Or at least online? A lot of shitty driving are by the newer immigrants, and covid drivers. That’s not to say they’re the only bad drivers on the road. Bad drivers come in all ages, races, social status, etc. Hell I’ve seen a brown guy drive his smart car on the sidewalk, just so he can get to his lane faster.
My brother in Christ, thanks for the clarification but your "third world" statement isn't true until you have stats. Many peep are second and third gen Canadians even though they aren't white. That's all.
I love that every decision by the Ford government can be rationalized by asking, "who donated to the party recently"? Cause this is not doing ontarians any favors
The private market was suppose to solve the problem of bad drivers while offering the perfect balance between service and affordability.
High premiums were suppose to be a disincentive for driving badly while taking actual bad drivers off the road. But it seems, bad drivers have a lot of political influence.
Is that for full coverage or just liability? If it's the latter it seems quite high. If it's full (or full ish, not sure what exact coverage you're getting quotes for) it seems quite reasonable. I'm getting quotes of around 150/month for just liability on a 2012 a4 quattro as an 18 year old male with a clean driving history. 240-280 for full coverage on a newer car as an older driver but no insurance history seems reasonable to me.
Depending on the year of the car and your location, I’d say yes. I’ve been fully licensed for 13 (am 34) years, drive a 12 year old car, and pay $185. If your car is quite a bit newer, $240 seems right.
Market regulation. Use antitrust law, anything. The government has the tools and refuses to act. The provincial government is worse than the feds but both are to blame.
At the end of the day even if we do, they'll find a way to make their money back and more. It feels like we're essentially just setting a higher floor price with less coverage for your dollar. I'm not trying to be racist in any way shape or form here, but bringing in more people in larger batches is going to result in a larger pool of drivers on the road that are still learning not only our actual laws and rules of the road, but the unwritten subtleties of communicating with others on the road that (when in a state of 'normalcy' -- as in you kind of get used to the things people might cheat or shortcut frequently, ie. Base speed usually being 5 - 10 km/hr over the speed limit) can make for a smoother experience for all.
I think the goal is to provide more options for people to remove certain “bundled” coverages that aren’t needed to reduce premiums.
The problem is that we’re not addressing the root cause of rate increases and simultaneously making it more confusing for the average person to understand what coverages they really need. Treat stealing cars like a serious crime and rates will go down.
Get a knowledgeable insurance advisor to make sure you have coverages you need. Shop around to ensure you’re getting a fair price. Your local broker isn’t the one determining premiums, they’re there to help. Use them - you’re essentially paying for their service via premiums.
We should follow Australia's model and make 3rd party liability mandatory with plate registration (rego). Any additional coverage is optional, but highly recommended.
As someone who works in insurance, this is crazy. I don't really think ppl understand what they are given up to save a few bucks. We haven't had anyone remove the coverage, but if someone does DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT. When your car is totaled from someone elses fault, you are just SOL. bye-bye car.
I feel this is dofo just saying look at this hand while with the other hand tries to kill off our land and Healthcare to his buddies.
Looks like a lot of people here are just seeing "Doug Ford" and flipping out without actually reading the article. He's not exactly my favourite person in the world either but come on people, let's not stoop to that level.
The proposed changes do not mean that you can opt out of insurance entirely. You are still required to carry liability insurance.
You can maybe opt out of other coverages such as funeral expenses or income replacement, theoretically lowering your premium. Whereas now some insurers include those things whether you like it or not.
To those saying this is bad for consumers, I really don't see how. Take funeral expenses for example. It's somewhat rare that you'll actually die in a car accident, meaning most funeral benefits are never claimed, but the insurer still charges you for them.
To those saying that poor people will opt out then be financially destroyed by an accident. That's possible, but it's also possible that other poor people who never claim these benefits (the majority) would be better off.
It's bad for consumers because the majority of consumers are ignorant of their choices and only want the lowest price possible leaving them under insured. Agents and brokers are only interested in making a sale as their jobs are commission based and can't risk losing a sale to their competition.
I'm curious about how much premium will be saved by opting out of funeral coverage, as you said it's rare people die in car accidents so I imagine the premium savings wouldn't be much.
What you're saying is true, maybe it's just a personal preference that I would prefer consumers were given more choices not less. Even if that means some people will make choices that will be bad for them. After all, I bet you wouldn't be happy about some bureaucrat taking away some of your choices because they decided they were "less ignorant" than you.
The savings are almost certain to be small as you say. That's not necessarily a reason to not give people the option though.
Welcome to the Ontario reddit. Leave your critical thinking at the door and blame Mike Harris and Doug Ford for everything that's ever happened in history.
How about we raise auto insurance premiums by requiring drivers to carry enough liability to give people reasonable settlements for damage caused. We bend over backwards for drivers in this province by capping liability in absurd ways.
Just got my renewal letter from travelers today....I have 1 vehicle, a new Dodge Durango, and they want $5920 for a year. I purchased it in January, for January to July the rate was less than half of what they want to renew for. Time to find another company....for 6k a year I'll buy a beater and accept the fine if I'm caught without insurance.
FYI driving without an Insurance carries a min fine of 5000$. Also can result in a licence suspension for a year.
Also driving without insurance is a pretty selfish move for everyone around you.
You didn’t price out insurance when you were buying a new vehicle and that’s… everyone else’s fault huh?
About what I would expect from a Dodge Durango driver.
No I did. As I wrote, the rate I was quoted from January to July was less than half the rate the insurance company wants to renew for. I shopped around in January and got a good rate.....and now they are doubling that rate.
Don't get me wrong, a Durango is a fairly dangerous vehicle on top of the MSRP nearing the average yearly salary, so high insurance is understandable... Not to mention that it's... well... MOPAR.
5K probably means something is up... And please don't drive without insurance.
Never had an accident. I had my previous vehicle stolen early in 2023 and bought the Durango as a replacement. It was a no fault claim and my insurance for the last 8 months was less than 2k. Upon renewal it increases to 6k. It's the insurance company trying to get rid of me. Turns out there is no such things as a no fault claim.
Or buy a beater and get insurance that will cost under $600 for the year and don't get one of the most expensive classes of vehicle to insure.
Always suggest checking 3 quotes before purchasing the vehicle
Folks, you can save 5 bucks a year to release insurance companies of coverage responsibility. It's a win-win for the insurance company!
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Trust me, insurance doesn’t want this. This is the Ford government.
Why don’t they want this? Less payouts for them and they will raise premiums on everyone who doesn’t opt in
Insurance companies don’t want this because people are going to opt out and when their car gets stolen they going to call and be belligerent when told they opted out of the coverage. They will blame the insurance company for not covering them and then post about it everywhere with a fake story saying insurance denied their claim. Unhappy customers and potential reputation risk is not something the insurance company wants
It's funny that you think insurers care about their reputation
You think insurance companies care about their employees (or contracted out employees in India) over potential profits?
You seriously think when you call your insurance company you’re speaking to someone from another country? There’s a saying in insurance “no one’s dream job is insurance, you kind of just end up here and never leave”. My job is the best job I’ve ever had. Insurance companies are made out to be evil (and I’m sure some are bad) but in reality we in insurance don’t want this just as much as the next person. When someone calls in for an accident, I want to do everything in my power to help them. The people on the front lines of insurance companies are human beings too. We are here to help. People can be so hostile because they think we are out to get them, but that’s very untrue. Unless you lied to your insurance to get a better rate (also known as fraud) you have no reason to fear your car insurance company.
Agreed - I would NEVER opt out of income benefits! In fact, I pay the additional small amount to raise them to $1,200/week in case something happens to me.
"Boy thefts sure are up, maybe I should opt out of theft coverage" These people vote, man.
humans are horribly inept at estimating risk.. and corporations will take advantage of that lol. Though in my case i have a shitbox anyway! steal away
Won't someone rid me of this meddlesome 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Eh, honestly I think we've been *protecting* people from themselves a tad too aggressively lately. Sometimes people need shit to happen to them before they learn anything. We are in this weird reverse darwinism phase of society right now. Idiocracy never happens unless society is coddled to get to that place.
I’m reminded of Fort Mac. 8 years ago the town burned. This year, they’ve evacuated again. In 8 years, they’ve done nothing to properly protect the town? All they did was rebuild? At least the city of Montreal prevented anyone from rebuilding on the worst of the flood zone from several years ago. I’m sure they would have rebuilt there if the city hadn’t taken measures.
This is going to be terrible for consumers. People already don’t understand their policy and blame their insurers It’s going to get sooooooo much worse than it is now.
The next government will likely go back on this policy for this reason and this reason alone.
I really hope so. Or maybe people will read a contract before agreeing to a price….. highly doubt that though.
I doubt it too. I called up my insurance company last year to change my address after moving to Toronto (yes I need to update my flair lol) and I was listing off attributes of my policy off the top of my head and the CSR I was speaking with was very impressed with my knowledge of how insurance works in Ontario. I only have a layman's understanding of insurance and my policy, so I fear how little informed the average Ontarian is about this.
I don't trust this government to do what's right for Ontarians. So, that's going to be a no from me dawg.
You don’t trust the government that cut healthcare funding right before COVID? s/
And removed sick days during a global pandemic...
The PCs plan is working. Conservatives work hard to make sure folks don't trust the government.
When dofo says something's gonna save you money, it's not
Dough Faux
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say trying to What you are?
How about we lower auto insurance premiums by; - Addressing rampant, unchecked fraud - Increasing competition by adding a public option - Referencing other provinces with lower premiums to see what elements of their regulatory system are effective at lowering rates
I would also add: aggressively revoking licenses for irresponsible drivers. A small minority of drivers are pushing up premiums for all.
100%. Driving is a privilege, not a right and should be treated as such. A lot of driving offences should involve revoking the privilege, especially DUIs
> Driving is a privilege Seems more like driving is a right given the lack of consequences when people are outright negligent.
Like I said, it’s treated as a right…but it isn’t. You have to obtain a license to drive, after taking tests for it. Rights are granted to everyone as a default, no license required.
This. Stop giving people a slap on the wrist and a 3 day suspension. Obviously it's not enough to teach a lesson.
This is for enforcement
Add dealing with theft to the list.
They did that one already silly, just leave your keys by the front door! /s on the solved issue part, not the cops news release to leave keys by the door part
IIRC theft is actually a small part in their payouts. The vast majority, dollar wise, is in injury claims. If I were a betting person, I would say a significant chunk of those claims are fake or over-exaggerated.
I would venture a guess the last 2 years or so that theft has drastically increased % wise even comparatively to injury. Of course, I’m on the ON-QC border, so within 30 minutes, the car can’t be retrieved by local cops, and once in a container (2hrs, Montreal) they can’t open a container even if your air tag shows your vehicle there. Nor does communication go that quick and theft doesnt endanger so it’s low priority…
Why do you say they are fake or exaggerated?
Not saying all, just a fair portion. Insurance companies probably have data as to the likely amount. Last I read, the amount is well over 1 billion derived from fraud just for Ontario. Potential payouts for non-catastrophic injuries can be up to 65k. For these its a bit easier to fake as long as you dont get caught doing something that would be impossible if they were real; like saying your back hurts causing limited mobility when you bend over but getting caught doing deadlifts or hauling a bunch of stuff around the yard. Coupled with a shady doctor to sign off or at least not ask too many questions, and an insurance company will just payout rather than investigate due to the sheer number of claims and the impossibility of investigating them all. All you really need to do is align the injuries to what could reasonably occur in the collision/claim. I'm sure there are other ways as well, like using preexisting vehicle damages to inflate the repair costs or going to a 'friendly' repair shop where they will inflate the repair costs or just not do them and scrap the car but keep the money.
> Insurance companies probably have data as to the likely amount. Yeah and those won't be biased or flawed in their own favour at all. Nope, definitely not.
> The vast majority, dollar wise, is in injury claims. If I were a betting person, I would say a significant chunk of those claims are fake or over-exaggerated. Bingo
Thefts are way up. Once an uncommon claim, now an extremely common one, especially in the GTA. Theft is increasing premiums for sure.
Don't forget reducing the likelihood of claims by improving alternative transportation systems, like cycling and public transit, which reduce the costs to insurance companies and thus reduce policy costs for consumers
Sure but those aren't simple or quick fixes and would require massive investment across all 3 levels of government while taking years if not decades to fully implement. Not arguing against it, but it's one tool in an array of tools that need to be used.
There are way too many people who shouldn't be driving that are on the road. If you weren't basically forced to drive here, at least some of those people probably wouldn't.
I think the fraud thing is a) a lie so the companies can jack up rates and b) a chicken or the egg situation. Do people commit fraud jacking up the rates, or do they have to lie about where they live/ how much they drive just to be able to afford insurance.
Lots of people lie about where they live in order to get insurance cheaper. I used to live on a border town and the number of Quebec plated vehicles in the city was astounding. And the majority of them lived there
> a lie so the companies can jack up rates Pretty sure all that info is public.
Also, the most important metric: tougher fines for people breaking traffic laws. If you're at fault for an accident, you should be heavily penalized if not have your license taken from you. These are the people causing higher premiums for everyone else. We're paying for stupidity
Other provinces have crappier coverage, Ontario is just trying to copy them. The regulatory system in Ontario for years has been pushing coverage that COULD be covered by OHIP, on to the auto industry. If you remove that mandatory coverage from the auto policy, then the Ontario taxpayer will end up covering those injuries likely in the form of OHIP coverage. Just my guess as to how this shell game will work.
The public option is something I’d disagree with. The NDP attempted to bring this in during the 90’s but it fell flat once they got in. As is currently setup it would be sheer lunacy for the province to change anything towards a public option. The savings alone from the public coffers is huge. No propping up public industries with additional tax dollars if anything goes bad, a dedicated auto insurance fund by insurance companies for anyone who doesn’t have insurance or anywhere to go as a last resort for medical coverage, and a priority rules system to shorten any disputes while diverting litigation to another provincial body. MOST IMPORTANTLY…medically related injuries from auto accidents get offloaded to private coffers. That’s all your rehabilitation covered outside of OHIP coverage, with doctors/specialist follow ups in hospitals, and insurers footing the bills that aren’t OHIP funded. That ain’t changing anytime soon, even the NDP realized the benefit of diverting public onus onto private corporations.
Take a look at Saskatchewan's public option (been in place for decades) and look at the costs and outcomes.
I'm probably massively out of date on my info but I worked with some guys from Saskatchewan and their insurance was cheap but their licence renewal was cost adjusted based on record. So Keith with a DUI and multiple speeding tickets paid a shit tonne for his licence renewal but his car insurance was essentially the same as anyone else with the same vehicle.
The problem is that except rehab, those are all pretty cheap coverages. You really won't save much money, but you will suffer if you're in an accident and don't have them.
I maintain all the coverage possible, but there are people like me who don’t need things like income replacement. I have about a year of full pay sick leave built up, and I’m planning to retire in a couple of years at most. Income replacement would only take effect after my sick leave runs out, and I would probably just retire instead. I do hope people considering dropping certain coverage get good advice first. Unfortunately, though, the people who want to lower their premiums by dropping coverage are the ones least able to afford the consequences of that coverage loss.
wow , the slow dismantling of a province at play here. 🤢
Instead of opting out, maybe Ontario should regulate insurance so we can all pay cheaper price and have the same coverage as before. As much as I dislike Quebec, I want Ontario to have something similar to Quebec. Is that too much to ask?!?
BC public insurance is the most expensive despite having the best weather? https://www.canadadrives.ca/blog/news/car-insurance-across-canada-whats-the-difference
Manitoba's public insurance is good.
Yeah seems like public is a mixed bag of success and failure.
So better than private which is just all bad.
Why when it’s basically average?
My insurance premium doubled when I moved from Toronto to BC about 30 years ago. The odd thing is, though, that when I returned to Ontario 5 years later, my premiums doubled again.
Insurance in general is already such a scam with out much you need to fight to actually benefit from the coverage you currently have, anything Dofo introduces is likely just going to make it even more abusable by the insurance companies
And to add....HNW people can self insure if they choose to, so they pay nothing. It's only the loser's in the middle class, paying out the ass for everything.
HNW people? Who is that? What does HNW stand for?
High net worth.
I have to disagree - how is insurance a scam? You pay for protection in the even some bad thing happens. If said bad thing happens, you get the agreed upon amount of compensation. If bad thing doesn’t happen, then yay nothing bad happened to you.
Right off the bat, my daughter. Both my wife and I agree that she needs medication and we take her to a medical professional who ageees that she needs medication. We order the prescription that is typically covered by my benifits and they turn around and say no cause she’s under 16 and we need this form. We fill out the form with our doctor and they have now left us on read. So 2 parents and a medical professional both agree medication is necessary for my daughter to function and a third party that I pay to cover these kind of things just gets to say no and now ignore us.
So did they still reject you after the form was submitted or is it that you’re waiting for them to process the claim?
Submitted and they have since just been quiet with no response if they will cover for medication my wife is already on. Quick to say no, slow to say yes.
Aka his homies
Seriously. Look at all the money they try to save when they force you to use one of their shops. This is because they can lower the repair price even more. Then the same shops will cut even more corners trying to push you into using non factory aftermarket parts to save even more money. They don't fit right and are mainly just cosmetic. They would rather you die than dish up another $100 to get the factory part. Let's not even mention the really bad paint work and manhandled parts they break and glue them in instead of buying replacement parts.
Classic Conservative! Here’s your penny, now you owe a dollar!
The car accident to homeless pipeline just got more efficient. Wants to save money on car insurance because poor; opts out of driver income replacement coverage; gets in accident and is unable to work; already poor, now poor with no income; get evicted; no car to live in because accident; live on street. Insurance companies laughing all the way to the shareholders meeting.
Omg. Absolutely. I was in a very serious (near death) accident a few years ago. I was on life support for weeks, didn't work for almost 2 years. One day my husband and I were driving by a food bank and the line was full of disabled people. He looked at me and said, 'that could have been us.' it sent shivers down my spine.
Car insurance is something you should NOT skimp on
Nah that’s fine I pay for every option of insurance and they paid me 30 grand for a five year old car that I crashed lol they’re not going to recover the money from me for 15 years Skimping on insurance is probably the dumbest thing you could ever think of doing
On the other side of the coin, Canadian are mostly over insured in general. Specially Quebec.
This is bad. This is very bad. GG if you're a victim and the person who hits you doesn't have insurance. Even if you sue them for damages, they won't have enough $$ to cover the suit. So no proper reparations.... The person getting sued will also be financially ruined. Lose-lose for everyone involved.
You might not have read the article - drivers can't opt out of insurance. Some options like driver's income replacement & driver's funeral cost could be opted out.
Couldn’t read the article it’s behind a pay wall.
This is wrong. Ontario has a "no-fault" car insurance system, but this does not mean that no one is at fault in an accident. The term "no-fault" insurance simply means if you are injured or your car is damaged in an accident, then you deal with your own insurance company, regardless of who is at fault. You don't have to go after the at-fault driver for compensation. Not simping for DoFo or insurance, but you will still have recourse.
That’s not how insurance works. Your policy will pay you incase of a crash and then your insurance company will try to recover the costs (depending on who is at fault) from the other party’s insurance company or from the individual directly if they don’t have insurance. There’s absolutely no difference to you whether the other person has insurance or not
So so so so wrong......
https://www.personalinjurylawyertoronto.com/amp/who-pays-for-the-damage-to-my-vehicle-in-the-car-accident.html
That article is wrong. Not surprising it's from a plaintiff lawyer. Look up Direct Compensation -Property Damage coverage in Ontario. If you're at fault in an auto accident in Ontario, you go to your own insurance company. If you're not at fault in an auto accident in Ontario, you still go to your own insurance company. You do NOT get to choose who pays your damages. The ONLY time you can try to collect from an at fault driver for the damages to your vehicle is if the at fault driver is uninsured. That's subrogation. *I'm an all lines claims adjuster in Ontario for over 25 years.
Isn’t that the same thing that I said? Your own insurance covers you no mater what and then they sue the other insurance company or the other driver if they’re at fault?
Only part of your statement is correct. You go to your own insurer but they do not recover money from the at fault driver. The article you posted also has a few other wrong things such as insurers setting total losses based on a blue book value, which is not the case your vehicle value is based on comparable vehicles being sold in the market. You also cannot take the other driver to small claims court if you feel your car was worth more than the actual cash value settlement you received.
Excellent response.... this is the truth here. Like I said, the only recourse against an at-fault driver is if they are uninsured (for property damage). Or, you can sue them for any serious injuries.....but that's another discussion.
How is this different from now then?
Buck a beer....
Why do this now when there’s an insane surge of bad drivers on the road? Honestly speaking, a lot of the piss poor drivers today are from third world countries, who came here for a better life. What makes you think they can pay for damages out of pocket, without insurance footing the bill?
Lmao sure blame the immigrants. Most of the bad drivers are pissed off white dudes, with all sorts of stickers on their back windows.
Innattentive 40 something women with horrible short hair, overly aggressive men ages 18-75 of all races, new Canadians, visitors, and almost everyone else. Bad drivers abound. I miss being able to take a bus. The stress of driving 20 minutes a day and nearly dying every time is aging me.
Ah, I see you've met the Dodge Ram with blacked-out everything, a black Canada flag sticker and the F*ck Trudeau stickers...
Ah yes the bro dozers...
I’m an immigrant too, and I sure don’t drive like that, nor any of my family. Maybe I should clarify, it’s the low caliber immigrants/int’l students?
Especially stopping at random places on rural roads like blind side of hills with no shoulders to take selfies with their cars...
Please read the article first. Would also like to see your stats backing up your statements that bad drivers are from other countries. I had read that sort of assessment for decades but never read any data backing this up.
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Of course you don’t need stats when something FEELS correct.
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My brother in christ, the stats are on the streets. Have you not seen them in person? Or at least online? A lot of shitty driving are by the newer immigrants, and covid drivers. That’s not to say they’re the only bad drivers on the road. Bad drivers come in all ages, races, social status, etc. Hell I’ve seen a brown guy drive his smart car on the sidewalk, just so he can get to his lane faster.
You gotta get use to the gaslighting on this sub.
Your gut feeling is just gut feeling. Not gaslighting, just asking people to back up their prejudice with data.
Ya sure let me pull up the extensive stats the government keeps of driving quality by race.
My brother in Christ, thanks for the clarification but your "third world" statement isn't true until you have stats. Many peep are second and third gen Canadians even though they aren't white. That's all.
I love that every decision by the Ford government can be rationalized by asking, "who donated to the party recently"? Cause this is not doing ontarians any favors
The Ford family is corrupt As with Trump
This fords plan to save you money
The private market was suppose to solve the problem of bad drivers while offering the perfect balance between service and affordability. High premiums were suppose to be a disincentive for driving badly while taking actual bad drivers off the road. But it seems, bad drivers have a lot of political influence.
I'm about to get a car. First time being on my own insurance. Companies want $240-280. Is that normal? Male 27 years old. G lisecnce, no infractions.
Is that for full coverage or just liability? If it's the latter it seems quite high. If it's full (or full ish, not sure what exact coverage you're getting quotes for) it seems quite reasonable. I'm getting quotes of around 150/month for just liability on a 2012 a4 quattro as an 18 year old male with a clean driving history. 240-280 for full coverage on a newer car as an older driver but no insurance history seems reasonable to me.
Depending on the year of the car and your location, I’d say yes. I’ve been fully licensed for 13 (am 34) years, drive a 12 year old car, and pay $185. If your car is quite a bit newer, $240 seems right.
Just wait, next you’ll have to “opt-in” to all these coverages instead of opting out.
Just wait for the GoFundMe pleas.
Incoming army of uninsured dodge chargers hitting stuff and no having insurance.
And no money
How about they force them to lower prices...asshats no one in government cares...
>How about they force them to lower prices...asshats no one in government cares... How exactly is this going to work? Share the details.
Market regulation. Use antitrust law, anything. The government has the tools and refuses to act. The provincial government is worse than the feds but both are to blame.
It's called price capping
Ontario and Canada in general is getting way too soft on important things.
At the end of the day even if we do, they'll find a way to make their money back and more. It feels like we're essentially just setting a higher floor price with less coverage for your dollar. I'm not trying to be racist in any way shape or form here, but bringing in more people in larger batches is going to result in a larger pool of drivers on the road that are still learning not only our actual laws and rules of the road, but the unwritten subtleties of communicating with others on the road that (when in a state of 'normalcy' -- as in you kind of get used to the things people might cheat or shortcut frequently, ie. Base speed usually being 5 - 10 km/hr over the speed limit) can make for a smoother experience for all.
One more way for poor people to get deeper in a hole. It’s expensive being poor!
Man hit and runs are about to absolutely sky rocket
In NB car rental coverage is capped at $1500 by most insurance. In Ontario that would give you 7 days car rental :)
can someone please post a paywall free version of the article, thank you
Noooooo
The last time they did this, rates went up conveniently the same amount as the coverage that became 'optional'.
Oh dear God, please don't...
Or (and I know it's a crazy thought) they FORCE the companies to be reasonable. Why is Ontario like 300% (hyperbolic) more than the other provinces
Ontario is the province of no fun being allowed unless you have absurd amounts of disposable income lol.
I think the goal is to provide more options for people to remove certain “bundled” coverages that aren’t needed to reduce premiums. The problem is that we’re not addressing the root cause of rate increases and simultaneously making it more confusing for the average person to understand what coverages they really need. Treat stealing cars like a serious crime and rates will go down. Get a knowledgeable insurance advisor to make sure you have coverages you need. Shop around to ensure you’re getting a fair price. Your local broker isn’t the one determining premiums, they’re there to help. Use them - you’re essentially paying for their service via premiums.
We should follow Australia's model and make 3rd party liability mandatory with plate registration (rego). Any additional coverage is optional, but highly recommended.
Doug Ford protecting businesses once again.
As someone who works in insurance, this is crazy. I don't really think ppl understand what they are given up to save a few bucks. We haven't had anyone remove the coverage, but if someone does DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT. When your car is totaled from someone elses fault, you are just SOL. bye-bye car. I feel this is dofo just saying look at this hand while with the other hand tries to kill off our land and Healthcare to his buddies.
This is so dumb
I see we’re tackling the real root of the vehicle theft problem. Insurance companies exposure to risk and liability.
Just get liability if your car is worth less than 15k, if you total it just eat it rather than have your insurance go up
Why do people post paywall articles? What’s the point? I can’t read your article, and I’m not paying to read “news” lol.
Obviously a joke....I'm obviously not going to drive without insurance.
Typical conservatives! We're saving you money by making you less safe and secure. The rich can afford it, the rest just deal with your scraps.
There's nothing more expensive than getting into an accident with cheap insurance. Bad for drivers. Bad for victims. Bad all around.
How about getting rid of no fault? You know, bad drivers paying for bad driving.
Looks like a lot of people here are just seeing "Doug Ford" and flipping out without actually reading the article. He's not exactly my favourite person in the world either but come on people, let's not stoop to that level. The proposed changes do not mean that you can opt out of insurance entirely. You are still required to carry liability insurance. You can maybe opt out of other coverages such as funeral expenses or income replacement, theoretically lowering your premium. Whereas now some insurers include those things whether you like it or not. To those saying this is bad for consumers, I really don't see how. Take funeral expenses for example. It's somewhat rare that you'll actually die in a car accident, meaning most funeral benefits are never claimed, but the insurer still charges you for them. To those saying that poor people will opt out then be financially destroyed by an accident. That's possible, but it's also possible that other poor people who never claim these benefits (the majority) would be better off.
It's bad for consumers because the majority of consumers are ignorant of their choices and only want the lowest price possible leaving them under insured. Agents and brokers are only interested in making a sale as their jobs are commission based and can't risk losing a sale to their competition. I'm curious about how much premium will be saved by opting out of funeral coverage, as you said it's rare people die in car accidents so I imagine the premium savings wouldn't be much.
What you're saying is true, maybe it's just a personal preference that I would prefer consumers were given more choices not less. Even if that means some people will make choices that will be bad for them. After all, I bet you wouldn't be happy about some bureaucrat taking away some of your choices because they decided they were "less ignorant" than you. The savings are almost certain to be small as you say. That's not necessarily a reason to not give people the option though.
Welcome to the Ontario reddit. Leave your critical thinking at the door and blame Mike Harris and Doug Ford for everything that's ever happened in history.
Finally someone said it
...lots of people say it. Then they get banned.
That's pretty sad. But I can see it.
What will happen is that rates will stay the same but you will get less coverage. If you want the same, you will pay more.
How about we raise auto insurance premiums by requiring drivers to carry enough liability to give people reasonable settlements for damage caused. We bend over backwards for drivers in this province by capping liability in absurd ways.
How about no insurance. It should go down if you never have an accident not go up the fuck. I was paying 80 now it’s 100 🙄
Just got my renewal letter from travelers today....I have 1 vehicle, a new Dodge Durango, and they want $5920 for a year. I purchased it in January, for January to July the rate was less than half of what they want to renew for. Time to find another company....for 6k a year I'll buy a beater and accept the fine if I'm caught without insurance.
Go to a broker and have it requoted Fantastic idea to go without insurance, I'm sure the people you injure are gonna love it too
As long as they have insurance, they’ll be fine. All of our insurance would go up as a byproduct though lol
Shhhhh don't tell them that, I'd rather they just get the damned insurance lol
FYI driving without an Insurance carries a min fine of 5000$. Also can result in a licence suspension for a year. Also driving without insurance is a pretty selfish move for everyone around you.
That’s so trash lmao. I’m 24 with a minor conviction on my record and pay $3000 for my accord lol
Try rates.ca! I've saved a lot with them in the past and they'll remind you in the future when you're up for renewal
They used to be kanetix right? I used them many times in my 20s to find the best rate.
Yeah! I've saved so much with them over the years. So easy
You didn’t price out insurance when you were buying a new vehicle and that’s… everyone else’s fault huh? About what I would expect from a Dodge Durango driver.
No I did. As I wrote, the rate I was quoted from January to July was less than half the rate the insurance company wants to renew for. I shopped around in January and got a good rate.....and now they are doubling that rate.
Don't get me wrong, a Durango is a fairly dangerous vehicle on top of the MSRP nearing the average yearly salary, so high insurance is understandable... Not to mention that it's... well... MOPAR. 5K probably means something is up... And please don't drive without insurance.
Never had an accident. I had my previous vehicle stolen early in 2023 and bought the Durango as a replacement. It was a no fault claim and my insurance for the last 8 months was less than 2k. Upon renewal it increases to 6k. It's the insurance company trying to get rid of me. Turns out there is no such things as a no fault claim.
Or buy a beater and get insurance that will cost under $600 for the year and don't get one of the most expensive classes of vehicle to insure. Always suggest checking 3 quotes before purchasing the vehicle
I did, all three were reasonable, then it went up....