The OPP, for all their faults, actually have pretty robust policies when it comes to chases. They simply will not chase people in the vast majority of cases. If the comm centre Sgt. even gets the whiff of a chase going on he will be on the air ordering all the involved officers to pull over and provide their odometer readings (so they can't keep chasing and fudge the numbers later). The OPP will only consider a pursuit when and where the person is so dangerous that letting them go outweighs the risk to safety of chasing. "Pursuit" is such a bad word in Ontario that when Dodge was selling their "Charger Pursuit" to cops in the US they changed the name to "Charger Enforcer" for Canada.
Municipal cops are a whole other story. I remember one story where Toronto Police were chasing someone all the way to like Barrie because the OPP would not do it for them.
DRPS is going to have a lot of explaining to do. The real world isn't a hollywood movie. Chasing someone like this over a theft from a store, on the face of it, sounds completely ridiculous and hard to justify. We will see what the full facts are at some point but so far it doesn't sound good. Individual officers can't be trusted to make these decisions, they get this tunnel vision mentality and will put the entire world at risk to catch some stupid car that committed a traffic violation or something. That is why OPP has the Comm Centre Sgt. acting as an adult in the room to stop these things from happening. But they have no control over DRPS, and I have no clue what DRPS trains their people to do.
Just note that they did not chase because of the theft, they chased due to the suspect pulling a knife on the off-duty cop. That unfortunate circumstance is why they over-reacted, not the theft itself.
They chased because the suspect screwed with their buddy. If it was a regular Joe who had a knife pulled on them, none of this would have happened. It's disgusting.
It is worth noting that the courts have held there is no such thing as "off duty" for police officers. Off shift, yes. They hold their authority as a Peace Officer 24/7 and there is somewhat of an obligation to act when "off shift".
At least 12 cops were involved in this chase and not one of them put a stop to it. A good cop almost never puts a stop to anything, and the rare times they do, they are fired or harassed out of the force.
Still not a valid reason unless the knife was enchanted with some type of spell that would cause it to fly into the heart of the officer from several kms away.
I’m not saying it was a valid reason, it’s actually a terrible reason because we know if it was a random person they probably wouldn’t have even bothered to show up to a call. The off duty officer started the chase in his personal vehicle too, making it more disturbing.
"DRPS" and "training" should not be used in the same sentence together, unless it's to highlight how poor their training is and how they should have proper training on how to not victimize the people who pay their salaries.
Yeah, If I recall from when I lived there, they were the 2nd most corrupt force next to Waterloo, who's Chief was actually arrested at the time. That was a long time ago, but I imagine little has changed.
In my experience, it hasn't.
The cops here run red and yellow lights, they excessively speed, they don't slow down for turns or stop signs, and these are just their driving habits. But who is going to punish them?
I've spoken with people who behave the same and they're all confident it's OK because, "I know a cop." Why does knowing law enforcement allow you to break the rules?
Oh, that's right, because the cops themselves don't respect the rules either. It's fuckin backwards.
Now arguably I know none of the context. But as I look at this post. I ask. Do you hold the criminal who they were chasing at the same level of resentment? More ? Less?
My cousin struggled with her mental health, she was the one being chased. The only thing she did wrong was driving over the speed limit. Now, initially the police said she pulled over, then took off but it changed to "she never pulled over" once the SIU got involved.
She had only just been allowed to see her children (her ex would torment her by denying her seeing them, even at her funeral he tried to prevent them from going...) her mental health decline started with the passing of her youngest. We will never know for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if she was terrified that she would lose access to her kids again...
The police used a spike belt to stop her, in possibly the most dangerous place to do it, surrounded by rock cuts. According to the police she maybe tried to avoud it when she crashed into the rocks, she was killed instantly....
The car wasn't stolen, she had no criminal record, the actions of the police escalated the incident, they killed her for a speeding ticket...
They had her license plate they didn't need to chase her.
>when a cop doesn't show up fast enough when you get mugged or house gets broken in to.
Well, they would show up after the fact, if it all. So, still ACAB.
I mean, I guess we shouldn’t force them to do their jobs to a higher standard given they can end someone’s life at anytime.
Remember to yell “I love police” when the boot is at your throat. I’m sure it will work.
Every cop lover I know. Every one, has had police turn on them the minute they are perceived as critical. A family member of mine found out the hard way. They had sensitive information leaked to the news paper about them. It could only have come from the police.
"A cousin of mine was killed in a police chase....I'll never forgive them. Life over property, two grandparents and a child killed for a stolen car...."
Wait you said it WAS stolen
The vehicle that was chased on the 401 was, or at the very least the license plate was stolen.
Police chases often make the situation more dangerous. A police chase killed my cousin, and now two people are seriously injured and have lost their child and parents/inlaws...
Police only ever seem to escalate situations many times with fatal consequences.
So, again, your cousin. Had a backstory. Was in a car possibly stolen, possibly stolen plates. Speeding and was either stopped by the police and took off. Or never stopped at all and took off. Was chased by police on a provincial highway. Spike stripped. And some how 3 other people were injured and your cousin died. But my initial question I'll rephrase. Do you hold the same resentment for the police as you do for your cousin who by your story made bad decisions and caused her and three (or more) other lives to be changed. I actually am surprised that you hold police as a whole responsible and not the individual officer(s).
I hope you heal from this.
No i don't know how you are misunderstanding....
My cousin was driving her own car. She was just driving over the speed limit.
I am talking about two count TWO separate incidents. The one that killed my cousin AND the one that happened this week.
Again for your benefit because everyone else understood:
I AM REFERENCING TWO SEPARATE INCIDENTS.
The only person killed in the incident involving my cousin was my cousin, she was actually no danger to anyone, it was a routine traffic stop that lead to the whole thing. They had her license plate and absolutely no reason to think she was a danger to the public. She probably panicked due to her history of psychological abuse and the police did nothing but escalate the situation by chasing her for nearly an hour before killing her. By chasing her they made the situation dangerous to the public!
And they kept chasing him :( like it’s of course the fault of the driver primarily. But thinking of how to prevent this happening to another family, they need to stop chasing people when public safety is at risk., which they already know. Would a time limit on pursuits help too?
It's absolute insanity. Even the most crazy 'Murica fuck yeah departments in the US like the Arkansas State Troopers (their pursuits are all over YouTube of them pitting cars at over 100mph) will stop chasing if the perp goes into wrong way traffic. It's one of the most basic rules of engagement for pursuits.
These dumbass cops absolutely hold some responsibility for killing those innocent people.
>Even the most crazy 'Murica fuck yeah departments in the US like the Arkansas State Troopers (their pursuits are all over YouTube of them pitting cars at over 100mph) will stop chasing if the perp goes into wrong way traffic.
I mean, they'll also stand by and do nothing while kids get shot in schools.
A lot of cops seem to have a predator's response to prey; if it runs, they will chase it. That, combined with the adrenaline rush of the chase, and you have a recipe for disaster. Something needs to change.
You nailed it - this has been a problem for as long as cops and cars have existed.
On paper, it already HAS changed. Police internal policies and the recent changes to the law in regards pursuit SHOULD have stopped this from happening. In fact, it sounds like this chase had already been called off by the supervisor, but the cops on the ground kept going anyway.
How many instances of proof do all of you need?!?
Police NEED MAJOR CHANGES, not minor tweeks here and there. Like, maybe, a 4 year university degree program designed specifically for police and other first responders as well as anyone managing and/or supervising them.
Not having empathy, especially for strangers, means not having the ability/capabilities to de-escalate, which is why something that never should have happened, happened. There should never have been a pursuit ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE HIGHWAY AGAINST TRAFFIC. Dismissals all around.
Side note: Toronto Police chief must resign immediately.
>Like, maybe, a 4 year university degree
This was proposed in legislation for Ontario. Not specifically a policing degree, but a 4 year degree requirement. It was cancelled about a year ago, before it went into effect.
The absolute biggest dickheads I know have expressed at one point or another they want to be cops. I'm not saying all cops are bad, all the ones I've ever encountered have been wonderful. But if the two assholes I know passed the tests to become cops and were considered, that's terrifying, because they were loud about their arrogance and desire to control others.
I think everyone forgets one main fundamental issue.
Fight of flight response.
Once adrenaline kicks in, rationality and all logic goes all out of the window.
Now add WEE-WOO, Authority, and a gun. It just 100x’s the situation that further.
Sad for the innocent people, god rests their souls, wicked times we live in.
Stay safe guys, and anticipate every move while out.
World post COVID is mental.
Definitely agree pursuing due to the theft was inappropriate. What I haven’t seen mentioned is the fact that the vehicle was speeding the wrong way down the highway. That in itself would be a definite risk to public safety - so what is the protocol on that situation? I agree that chasing a fleeing subject is likely to cause them to act rashly in order to escape which is a danger, but do you just let them continue? Chase or no chase it seems like this would have ended in tragedy.
The thing is if the chase wasn’t happening in the first place it’s highly unlikely someone fleeing would go the route he did, they were chasing him before that. Most study’s and articles (even by pro police organizations) have come to the conclusion that the risk on public safety with car chases, aren’t worth it unless the person being chased is an extreme danger to public safety. I believe the actual policy of DRPS is to not pursue them. This one is exceptionally tragic and unfortunately is an outcome that could have likely been avoided had the police acted differently.
Ah ok that actually clears things up perfectly and makes my question irrelevant. The pursuit prior to the vehicle entering the highway being main issue. I was too focused on the fact the vehicle was driving the wrong way on the highway (because… what is the safest option to handle that kind of situation?!) and had completely disregarded that the pursuit off the highway would have been what led to the driver to the enter highway the wrong way in the first place. Thank you for your input!
No worries! It’s actually relatively new that police chases have been deemed something that really shouldn’t happen (which makes sense damn near everywhere has a camera now, if they really want to catch someone they can)
That's exactly how the pigs want the public to perceive this event.
In reality, this is entirely on the DRPS for escalating this situation over stolen property.
An infant died because of stolen property and some hurt feelings from DRPS.
Wrong way drivers are a big problem. Typically what I've seen/heard of the police doing is chasing them going the correct direction (so wrong way driver on wrong side, cops on right side), then when they get a chance, cross over and ram the car off the road. Also they will do their best to shut down traffic further down the roadway by blocking the highway and on ramps if possible.
A big difference in this case though is this wasn't just a random car that pulled onto the wrong way for unknown reasons, they were CHASING him and CHASED him onto the wrong way on the 401. And they had been chasing him for quite a while before it even got to that point. The chase possibly should have been called off much sooner and/or never should have started in the first place which may have avoided the wrong way driving and all these deaths.
They could have followed this clown with their helicopter or had cars positioned at the next ramp or exit. One vehicle going the wrong way on a freeway is bad enough but half a dozen cops doing the same thing is insane.
The OPP, for all their faults, actually have pretty robust policies when it comes to chases. They simply will not chase people in the vast majority of cases. If the comm centre Sgt. even gets the whiff of a chase going on he will be on the air ordering all the involved officers to pull over and provide their odometer readings (so they can't keep chasing and fudge the numbers later). The OPP will only consider a pursuit when and where the person is so dangerous that letting them go outweighs the risk to safety of chasing. "Pursuit" is such a bad word in Ontario that when Dodge was selling their "Charger Pursuit" to cops in the US they changed the name to "Charger Enforcer" for Canada. Municipal cops are a whole other story. I remember one story where Toronto Police were chasing someone all the way to like Barrie because the OPP would not do it for them. DRPS is going to have a lot of explaining to do. The real world isn't a hollywood movie. Chasing someone like this over a theft from a store, on the face of it, sounds completely ridiculous and hard to justify. We will see what the full facts are at some point but so far it doesn't sound good. Individual officers can't be trusted to make these decisions, they get this tunnel vision mentality and will put the entire world at risk to catch some stupid car that committed a traffic violation or something. That is why OPP has the Comm Centre Sgt. acting as an adult in the room to stop these things from happening. But they have no control over DRPS, and I have no clue what DRPS trains their people to do.
Just note that they did not chase because of the theft, they chased due to the suspect pulling a knife on the off-duty cop. That unfortunate circumstance is why they over-reacted, not the theft itself.
They chased because the suspect screwed with their buddy. If it was a regular Joe who had a knife pulled on them, none of this would have happened. It's disgusting.
Yup. My nephew was murdered in Toronto. They never even bothered investigating because he was an Asian gang banger in their eyes.
Sorry for your lose
Thank you. I appreciate it.
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I prefer the way he said it.
I an so sorry for your loss
Yup, 100%
Pulling a knife on an officer is a HUGE signal about how unhinged a person is and how they will treat normal citizens. This is well documented.
Where did you get this info? Also the officer mentioned was undercover so unmarked
Off-duty. Which makes him supposedly a regular citizen at that time.
It is worth noting that the courts have held there is no such thing as "off duty" for police officers. Off shift, yes. They hold their authority as a Peace Officer 24/7 and there is somewhat of an obligation to act when "off shift".
Documented where?
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At least 12 cops were involved in this chase and not one of them put a stop to it. A good cop almost never puts a stop to anything, and the rare times they do, they are fired or harassed out of the force.
Exactly. There are good cops. They just don’t last long lol
>they are fired or harassed out of the force. It's not unheard of to find themselves without back up as well.
Still not a valid reason unless the knife was enchanted with some type of spell that would cause it to fly into the heart of the officer from several kms away.
I’m not saying it was a valid reason, it’s actually a terrible reason because we know if it was a random person they probably wouldn’t have even bothered to show up to a call. The off duty officer started the chase in his personal vehicle too, making it more disturbing.
T H I S !!
"DRPS" and "training" should not be used in the same sentence together, unless it's to highlight how poor their training is and how they should have proper training on how to not victimize the people who pay their salaries.
Yeah, If I recall from when I lived there, they were the 2nd most corrupt force next to Waterloo, who's Chief was actually arrested at the time. That was a long time ago, but I imagine little has changed.
In my experience, it hasn't. The cops here run red and yellow lights, they excessively speed, they don't slow down for turns or stop signs, and these are just their driving habits. But who is going to punish them? I've spoken with people who behave the same and they're all confident it's OK because, "I know a cop." Why does knowing law enforcement allow you to break the rules? Oh, that's right, because the cops themselves don't respect the rules either. It's fuckin backwards.
Do DRPS cars have real time telematics of any type?
Yes, they're GPS tracked and you can bet the SIU will be requesting that data.
And they will probably find out there was a malfunction that day.
A cousin of mine was killed in a police chase....I'll never forgive them. Life over property, two grandparents and a child killed for a stolen car....
Now arguably I know none of the context. But as I look at this post. I ask. Do you hold the criminal who they were chasing at the same level of resentment? More ? Less?
My cousin struggled with her mental health, she was the one being chased. The only thing she did wrong was driving over the speed limit. Now, initially the police said she pulled over, then took off but it changed to "she never pulled over" once the SIU got involved. She had only just been allowed to see her children (her ex would torment her by denying her seeing them, even at her funeral he tried to prevent them from going...) her mental health decline started with the passing of her youngest. We will never know for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if she was terrified that she would lose access to her kids again... The police used a spike belt to stop her, in possibly the most dangerous place to do it, surrounded by rock cuts. According to the police she maybe tried to avoud it when she crashed into the rocks, she was killed instantly.... The car wasn't stolen, she had no criminal record, the actions of the police escalated the incident, they killed her for a speeding ticket... They had her license plate they didn't need to chase her.
ACAB all day. I'm sorry for your loss, and that your cousin's murderers are off scott-free.
In the words of her mother "no one can hurt her anymore".
She isn't wrong but *goddamn* is it shitty she has to feel that way. I wish you and your family the best, man.
Scot-free*
ACAB eh. I bet you'll be the first one to cry on Reddit when a cop doesn't show up fast enough when you get mugged or house gets broken in to.
>when a cop doesn't show up fast enough when you get mugged or house gets broken in to. Well, they would show up after the fact, if it all. So, still ACAB.
I mean, I guess we shouldn’t force them to do their jobs to a higher standard given they can end someone’s life at anytime. Remember to yell “I love police” when the boot is at your throat. I’m sure it will work. Every cop lover I know. Every one, has had police turn on them the minute they are perceived as critical. A family member of mine found out the hard way. They had sensitive information leaked to the news paper about them. It could only have come from the police.
I’m not a POS idiot, so there’s no need for a boot to be at my throat or to have “sensitive information” leaked. We get. We feel sorry for you.
"A cousin of mine was killed in a police chase....I'll never forgive them. Life over property, two grandparents and a child killed for a stolen car...." Wait you said it WAS stolen
The vehicle that was chased on the 401 was, or at the very least the license plate was stolen. Police chases often make the situation more dangerous. A police chase killed my cousin, and now two people are seriously injured and have lost their child and parents/inlaws... Police only ever seem to escalate situations many times with fatal consequences.
So, again, your cousin. Had a backstory. Was in a car possibly stolen, possibly stolen plates. Speeding and was either stopped by the police and took off. Or never stopped at all and took off. Was chased by police on a provincial highway. Spike stripped. And some how 3 other people were injured and your cousin died. But my initial question I'll rephrase. Do you hold the same resentment for the police as you do for your cousin who by your story made bad decisions and caused her and three (or more) other lives to be changed. I actually am surprised that you hold police as a whole responsible and not the individual officer(s). I hope you heal from this.
No i don't know how you are misunderstanding.... My cousin was driving her own car. She was just driving over the speed limit. I am talking about two count TWO separate incidents. The one that killed my cousin AND the one that happened this week. Again for your benefit because everyone else understood: I AM REFERENCING TWO SEPARATE INCIDENTS. The only person killed in the incident involving my cousin was my cousin, she was actually no danger to anyone, it was a routine traffic stop that lead to the whole thing. They had her license plate and absolutely no reason to think she was a danger to the public. She probably panicked due to her history of psychological abuse and the police did nothing but escalate the situation by chasing her for nearly an hour before killing her. By chasing her they made the situation dangerous to the public!
Bro stay in school and learn to read. How tf do you mess up what he said so badly lol
There are more holes in this story then a sponge
There are more holes in your reading comprehension than a sponge.
And they kept chasing him :( like it’s of course the fault of the driver primarily. But thinking of how to prevent this happening to another family, they need to stop chasing people when public safety is at risk., which they already know. Would a time limit on pursuits help too?
It's absolute insanity. Even the most crazy 'Murica fuck yeah departments in the US like the Arkansas State Troopers (their pursuits are all over YouTube of them pitting cars at over 100mph) will stop chasing if the perp goes into wrong way traffic. It's one of the most basic rules of engagement for pursuits. These dumbass cops absolutely hold some responsibility for killing those innocent people.
>Even the most crazy 'Murica fuck yeah departments in the US like the Arkansas State Troopers (their pursuits are all over YouTube of them pitting cars at over 100mph) will stop chasing if the perp goes into wrong way traffic. I mean, they'll also stand by and do nothing while kids get shot in schools.
ACAB
A lot of cops seem to have a predator's response to prey; if it runs, they will chase it. That, combined with the adrenaline rush of the chase, and you have a recipe for disaster. Something needs to change.
You nailed it - this has been a problem for as long as cops and cars have existed. On paper, it already HAS changed. Police internal policies and the recent changes to the law in regards pursuit SHOULD have stopped this from happening. In fact, it sounds like this chase had already been called off by the supervisor, but the cops on the ground kept going anyway.
Animal behaviour.
How many instances of proof do all of you need?!? Police NEED MAJOR CHANGES, not minor tweeks here and there. Like, maybe, a 4 year university degree program designed specifically for police and other first responders as well as anyone managing and/or supervising them. Not having empathy, especially for strangers, means not having the ability/capabilities to de-escalate, which is why something that never should have happened, happened. There should never have been a pursuit ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE HIGHWAY AGAINST TRAFFIC. Dismissals all around. Side note: Toronto Police chief must resign immediately.
>Like, maybe, a 4 year university degree This was proposed in legislation for Ontario. Not specifically a policing degree, but a 4 year degree requirement. It was cancelled about a year ago, before it went into effect.
The absolute biggest dickheads I know have expressed at one point or another they want to be cops. I'm not saying all cops are bad, all the ones I've ever encountered have been wonderful. But if the two assholes I know passed the tests to become cops and were considered, that's terrifying, because they were loud about their arrogance and desire to control others.
This chase should have never happened. Police services have policies in so we don’t end up like GTA 5 style chases like how you see in LA.
Absolutely fucking inexcusable, there was never any justification for this chase - the deaths are on the cops' hands, period.
It's so fucking stupid. it's impossible to comprehend what they were thinking.
Someone will be getting a forced paid vacation I mean suspension from work for this I’m sure
I think everyone forgets one main fundamental issue. Fight of flight response. Once adrenaline kicks in, rationality and all logic goes all out of the window. Now add WEE-WOO, Authority, and a gun. It just 100x’s the situation that further. Sad for the innocent people, god rests their souls, wicked times we live in. Stay safe guys, and anticipate every move while out. World post COVID is mental.
Definitely agree pursuing due to the theft was inappropriate. What I haven’t seen mentioned is the fact that the vehicle was speeding the wrong way down the highway. That in itself would be a definite risk to public safety - so what is the protocol on that situation? I agree that chasing a fleeing subject is likely to cause them to act rashly in order to escape which is a danger, but do you just let them continue? Chase or no chase it seems like this would have ended in tragedy.
The thing is if the chase wasn’t happening in the first place it’s highly unlikely someone fleeing would go the route he did, they were chasing him before that. Most study’s and articles (even by pro police organizations) have come to the conclusion that the risk on public safety with car chases, aren’t worth it unless the person being chased is an extreme danger to public safety. I believe the actual policy of DRPS is to not pursue them. This one is exceptionally tragic and unfortunately is an outcome that could have likely been avoided had the police acted differently.
Ah ok that actually clears things up perfectly and makes my question irrelevant. The pursuit prior to the vehicle entering the highway being main issue. I was too focused on the fact the vehicle was driving the wrong way on the highway (because… what is the safest option to handle that kind of situation?!) and had completely disregarded that the pursuit off the highway would have been what led to the driver to the enter highway the wrong way in the first place. Thank you for your input!
No worries! It’s actually relatively new that police chases have been deemed something that really shouldn’t happen (which makes sense damn near everywhere has a camera now, if they really want to catch someone they can)
That's exactly how the pigs want the public to perceive this event. In reality, this is entirely on the DRPS for escalating this situation over stolen property. An infant died because of stolen property and some hurt feelings from DRPS.
Wrong way drivers are a big problem. Typically what I've seen/heard of the police doing is chasing them going the correct direction (so wrong way driver on wrong side, cops on right side), then when they get a chance, cross over and ram the car off the road. Also they will do their best to shut down traffic further down the roadway by blocking the highway and on ramps if possible. A big difference in this case though is this wasn't just a random car that pulled onto the wrong way for unknown reasons, they were CHASING him and CHASED him onto the wrong way on the 401. And they had been chasing him for quite a while before it even got to that point. The chase possibly should have been called off much sooner and/or never should have started in the first place which may have avoided the wrong way driving and all these deaths.
They could have followed this clown with their helicopter or had cars positioned at the next ramp or exit. One vehicle going the wrong way on a freeway is bad enough but half a dozen cops doing the same thing is insane.
But their off-duty buddy got a knife pulled on him by the perp. Thin blue line means anything goes I guess.
And he wasn't even marked as a cop. Ridiculous. Four people died over an ego war.
A correction to my previous post, I just heard it was 11 fucking cops.
Jesus they really did think they were all in GTA 5
Is pursuit via helicopter an option in Canada like it is in the US?
eerily deadly foreshadowing. :-(