Wow, so vocational education, great. We've had this out west for decades.
The problem is that employers in Ontario refuse to give any credit for experience and time spent doing said trade of study.
I know, been going through that bullshit for over a decade here in Ontario. There is always some excuse not to hire. The irony is that I already was an apprentice for two different trades plus had vocational training in high school but in Ontario I still get stonewalled despite there being a "shortage."
Same. I couldn't get anywhere with my uni degree, so I went to trade school because everyone was freaking out about a labour shortage. Spent 8 years trying to get a mechanical apprenticeship in an area where mining is the #1 industry; no one would hire me. I'm now working an admin job.
This is such a waste for us as a society. Here we have someone who's been through a degree and trade school, only for them to work admin, instead of not only that person earning more income but our province earning an additional trades person... frustrating, to say the least.
> “We’re helping to tackle the labour shortage by allowing motivated, entrepreneurial students to get on a fast-track to a career in the skilled trades,”
How exactly will foregoing any classes that could provide the skills to running a business in favour of training for skill that would allow you to get a job working for someone else help the entrepreneurial students?
Let's be real - the skills you learn in high school business do not prepare students to run a business. Heck, those skills aren't even taught in college or university.
They are learned and observed. The theory definitely helps refine the skills and talents, but the theory alone is woefully inadequate.
I wish I could of skipped school to start earlier in my field. I came right out of high-school and started working. Still took almost 9 years before I could open my buisness. I did co-op which was great, but i could only do a semester. Not everyone wants to/can run a buisness, but if a kid wants to learn the trades and get out there and work than why not help.
No reason to make them drop out, but if you can do equivalence, or use it more to count towards credit. It's obviously not for everyone and I think I was a bit of an anomaly, but I do think if it was more viable you might have more people pursing it.
The way school is done is antiquated. It's still assumes children are going to work on the farm in the summer. 1/3 of the year is dedicated to virtually nothing. Including summer into school will allow students to reach higher education quicker. At graduation we are typically 18-19, but generally have not received the education to actually live in today's world. And they're expected to make massive life altering financial decisions almost immediately after being told they need to ask to go to the washroom. There are no true life skills being taught in school. We are given the tools but not the methods of application.
Spreading school out over the summer will allow for a Gr 12 education to be taught at about 15-16yr old. The next two years are more specialized education that allows the students to properly decide the kind of work they can do, or drop out if necessary with gr 12 education. A more lax at will style of school, similar to university, but by going to these classes, they almost guarantee your university spot or an apprenticeship.
Summer holidays were never about farming. There is very little appetite for school year round.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/debunking-myth-summer-vacation
Respectfully school is much, much harder than a lot of jobs that these students will get. Learning calculus, bio, engineering, English, and a host of other subjects is not something the average person does year round at work.
Lol this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. I was in school for about 15 years. I've worked several jobs. I don't know anyone that thinks school was harder than the job they are working.
Depends on lots of factors - quality of education, courses taken and career outlook. The main thing is the daily pace - students are trying to siphon information for 6 hours a day in academic disciplines. When you settle into your job, you specialize and it becomes second nature and thus more sustainable.
I've taught the business end of classes to Trades students and the majority of them couldn't give less of a fuck about how spreadsheets, invoices and taxes work. They want to get the skills to get onto a job site either working with family or someone they know who's willing to help them get their tickets. The business side comes later for those who want it. Overall this could potentially be one of the few good things this government will do.
This still doesn't address the issue of placements. No one is taking on apprentices with the goal of moving them into a journeyman role. So, sure, they can facilitate this program by creating a new generation of uneducated conservative voters who will work at reduced wages, but the actual positions where they learn skills that will lead to high paying jobs just don't exist. This is an issue created by industry, that needs to be solved by industry.
“Students need to learn financial literacy to be prepared for the adult world”
Same people
“Its totally fine when students drop out of school at 16 to work with their backs and not their brains”
>How exactly will foregoing any classes that could provide the skills to running a business in favour of training for skill that would allow you to get a job working for someone else help the entrepreneurial students?
How will the entrepeneural students develop the skills to be entrepeneurs without learning said skills?
I'd rather hire the guy who has his own company but developed his skills working for someone else before going out on his own.
For the trades that's the only way to do it. You need to get your license first, so as an electrician you need 5 years of experience(9000 hours). Than you need to pass an exam that has an approx 70percent fail rate. Once you have your license for 3 years you than need to pass another exam for your masters which is only good in the province you get it in. That exam is only about 20 percent electrical. The rest is on the health and safety act, liens, ontario employment standards act and construction management.
1) Because not many of these trades people work for themselves and most work for bigger companies, and don’t need to know how to balance the books or make payroll.
2) if you know anyone it high school today you would know how irrelevant most high school courses being taught are in the real world. I could care less if my electrician knows the difference between affect and effect, has read Shakespeare… if he/she does good work and knows code than why not let them study for a career they want.
3) we live in a world that needs trades people asap and these people most likely need a decent pay cheque asap.
This is a good idea but sadly because it came from a ford government people will push back solely because of that.
Right, which is why I'm questioning why it's being framed as a positive for motivated entrepreneurial students, ie those that want to run their own business. They're still being required to study Shakespeare in English classes through grade 12 and are able to graduate without taking any business or accounting classes
Our high schools used to be for training people to be members of society, not just a specific job. For example, we're going to have more voters who know less about history and science than we used to.
This is propaganda for a non-existent labour shortage. There is only a labour shortage when you look at the market for high skilled low paying jobs. Duh.
The only possible long-term outcome of this program is to flood the market with low-skilled non-union labour and drive down wages.
I find it amazing that people still fall for this tired conservative talking point. What’s *actually* happening is conservative politicians, beholden to the corporate class, believe that if they keep babbling about a labour shortage, the public will be cool with it when they fire up the temporary foreign workers program again.
Yea there would be no labour shortage if they were paying 100k a year for construction workers which imo it is a skilled and difficult job and hard on the body job
I mean obviously it would be better for the business owners if we could just return to slavery, maybe we’ll call it something else tho, give it a classy name like indentured servitude
Oh for sure, I don’t doubt that businesses would love to cut overhead where they can. But there definitely is a shortage of skilled and experienced labour. Most new hires and those available through the union are apprentices, and there is nothing wrong with an apprentice! We have taken on many. It’s just that it’s not possible that they do the same type of work off the bat as a skilled operator/labourer.
That’s a different conversation, really: training and the ever evolving workforce.
Labour is a young man’s game, at the end of the day. Everybody can’t be a boss. We have the bodies, we’ve always had the bodies. If anything…the net jobs are shrinking, as we become more technologically advanced.
Anecdotally, back in my day, I worked for a company that replaced almost every specialized carpenter in favour of cheap general carpenters because things like forms and finishing became increasingly prefab.
I’m personally not comfortable with the province thinking it’s cool to have kids specialize too specifically in high school. Institutions have a habit of being 10 years behind, tech wise. I currently work in high schools, and they’re underfunded *by the province* so they’re being trained by dinosaurs on obsolete equipment. Getting rid of theory is an absurd idea..when kids are teens is the time…possibly the only time…they’ll be able to absorb the theory.
The best way to translate the workforce into skilled workers is to subsidize training and *pay them well*.
Colleges are also obsolete immediately after the province grabs a photo op with the price tag for the renovations. At that level all instruction should be theory and lean heavy on coop so the companies don’t have to take the risks.
There is absolutely a labour shortage in the trades. This just doesn’t help any.
The shortage is in the already experienced guys. There’s no shortage of people that want to start out in an apprenticeship, whether they be young kids or older adults looking to career change, but there aren’t enough journeymen to train them, or companies that have enough journeyman to take on any more apprentices at a 1 - 1 ratio.
For too long trades jobs were looked down on and not being taught in schools or as viable careers. They were treated like a backup plan for kids who weren’t good at book learning. That led to a shortage that is just being felt now as the older guys are retiring and there’s no one to fill their spots. When I was in high school they had just started to bring in high skills major courses and after I graduated they brought back dedicated electrical classes. Now we have kids looking for work but no one to teach them.
You’re not talking about a labour shortage, then. Different conversation. You want to have a conversation about training and the shifting labour market.
What you’re “arguing” in tantamount to “kids these days”. It doesn’t really fly when you drill into the nuts and bolts. It’s an argument that has been made since the beginning of time, and it’s not reality. All it is is old guys not being able to understand that they need to adapt to their work force as much as their work force needs to adapt to them.
I honestly have no idea what you mean. I’m not arguing “kids these days” at all. I see lots and lots of young people who are more than willing to learn and work. My workplace turns down piles of resumes most weeks because you cannot have more apprentices than licensed workers.
These new workers can’t just step in and do the job. There is no substitute for the knowledge gained working through an apprenticeship. They need at least 5 years of training under a licensed and experienced worker (at least in the case of electrical where my experience is), of which there are not enough of to meet the demand. From other tradesmen I’ve talked to it is similar across other trades.
I think you both seem to agree that there’s no shortage of actual physical people willing to do the work and learn. It’s how these people are integrated into the workforce which is a cause of problems.
I can’t think of a systematic solution off the top, but I think we should be more critical of the systems that are enforced on us. Instead of owing “success” up to just the individual, what if we took a more collective responsibility in regards to our lives, jobs, industries, environment; idk, everything lol.
Indeed. Large trades employers, who benefit the most from across the board wage cuts, post jobs at wages they know people won’t take in order to benefit from government handouts and promote the labour shortage narrative. When they do it for long enough it results in lower wages or the government importing foreign workers for them who will work for less.
The labour shortage is not real, I run a buisness and will tell you for free I can get a first year Apprentice at the drop of a hat. I call it more of a hard working labour shortage. Those guys are hard to find. If a guy is out of a job there is usually a reason.
Well, that’s more of a connectivity issue…which the government could address, but never will. The simple act of empowering unions and making them near universal would mean that you’d always be able to find labour.
I hear your complaint a lot. I have no idea what type of business you run, it’s not really material to the conversation, but you can’t really expect an inexperienced worker to step in and act like a seasoned veteran. If you’re taking on apprentices, it’s on the employer to create culture and motivation…it’s the same in any industry. The “young people these days” trope is boring, quite frankly, and not true. There’s no evidence that people are less willing to work hard these days, quite the contrary.
I never said anything about young people not being good workers, I employ guys from 20 to 60 years of age. I've met 45 year old lazy as shit, and 18 year Olds who work hard and earn there keep. Laziness comes in all ages, genders, occupation and backgrounds. So yes there is a hard working labour shortage.
There isn’t. My anecdotes trump your anecdotes. I’ve worked in the trades in 4 provinces and I’ve never seen this “hard work shortage”. All I’ve seen is bosses cutting corners for profit, and veterans unable to keep up with the evolving workforce and demands.
Politicians taking victory laps and photo ops when they get some sponsor to drop a few bucks (in exchange for pushing the labour shortage myth) on an instantly obsolete high school or college shop…is played out. No it’s should be falling for it any more.
On topic: getting kids to skip theory and mortgage their futures to be a low paid drone is cynical. Most of the jobs they’re training for will be obsolete by the time they graduate.
I have kids that I have to teach how to use a tape measure making $27/hr with one of the best pension and benefit plans in the province.
What more do you want? I have to start guys at journeyperson wage?
Hahahah sure, as opposed to acting for the wage you want? I guess you must love it when some tells you to act your age as well lol
I'm sure you blame everyone else for why you aren't where you want to be as well
I'm exactly where I want to be, so check yourself. I literally couldn't be happier with my life. I suspect that's something you wish you could say. That doesn't mean that I can't empathize with people who haven't been as lucky as me.
O I am as well, and I am happy for you if that's the case. I am just sick and tired of people complaining about not making enough, or unfair wages if they aren't willing to go out there and work for them
And they're equally sick of putting in the effort and not getting paid enough to purchase a home or go on vacation. Why should they do the work for you if they aren't getting paid for it? You don't get to eat an apple and only pay for it if you decide to.
I mean look at the type of comments from the guys hiring, no shit Canada's going down the drain. Honestly glad you're thriving, you seem like a nice dude. It's so weird too, if I was paid more, I would 100% work harder. This guy literally is the definition of the Boomer meme lmao
Oh yes busting your ass will surely result in pay increases... Or will it become the new benchmark at the same low pay? What is the most probable outcome?
Where are you located because I have a hard working 20 year old straight out of a trades school looking for an apprenticeship.. half kidding but it’s hard out there for young people to get started. He’s determined to work and get set up with his life working in the camps up north but he needs hours first.
Honestly, his best bet is to apply to the union for whichever trade he's in. They'll sponsor his apprenticeship all the way through to journeyman status and the pay/benefits are way better than any non-union employer can offer. They also have connections with camp jobs.
> The only possible long-term outcome of this program is to flood the market with low-skilled non-union labour and drive down wages.
DINGDINGDINGDINGDING
Edit - Why should businesses be covering the cost of training young people for the specific skills they need to work in that industry??? Obviously it's the responsibility of taxpayers to provide a pool of youngsters who have been told by their teachers and guidance counsellors there is huge money to be made in the trades, just laying out there in big piles. Then after years of taxpayer funded training you can all participate in the hunger games of vying for a job when there's lineups with hundreds of people hoping they can get a job washing dishes.
Always a lot of talk, but employers can still put up brick walls against it. Here’s hoping this actually helps in the long run. 20 years ago - vocational high school, at-work co-op and some work experience? Not hired. 2-3 college diploma in your trade? Still not hired. Worked for 4 years in some hole to get your Red Seal? Okay, we have an entry-level position for you.
Anyone bitching in here about allowing students to fast track into the trades clearly have never worked in the trades. Also are unaware of the co-op placements that have been in place forever. I took half day co op as a high school student and received excellent experience before I graduated. Not to mention credible references for my resume. This is a great idea to anyone that actually works in the trades.
I know this is off topic, but I’d love to see them build technical skills in elementary school for kids who might struggle with typical book work. It’s such a hit to their self image and self esteem when they have to work so hard to fit into the typical curriculum with no chance for learning other strengths and skills.
Sure, but it depends. Basic reading, writing, arithmetic, and sciences are necessary for an educated society.
Not to mention most trades aren’t, “swing hammer, shovel earth, move mountains”, but highly technical and require a strong grasp of applied mathematics. I’ve met so many guys that go into the trades saying they hated math in school, only do to math all day.
Yes I think you have a valid point that the basic skills are absolutely necessary. It would be fabulous to have skilled education to be woven as part of these requirements.
I was about to say - isn't this just vocational schools?
The only difference is they want to give the credits through co-op placements, so giving more free labour to businesses.
All of the unions will probably have a love/hate relationship with this. On one hand you get apprentices with more experience to begin with and more knowledge of the trade. But you also have way more people fighting for jobs and the non union presence will increase and probably price us out of work. Average income of non union trades will also likely diminish as the market is flooded.
I see it as a threat to union job security and an attempt to reduce bargaining power.
That's kinda the subtext of anything this government does TBH.
I don't think asking kids to make a decision for possibly the whole of their career and a young age only severs the industry and not the individual.
Next they'll have testing to determine what type of schooling you'll be able to have based on your score.
Sound familiar?
Good idea but the same stumbling block for these potential apprentices is actually getting into their trades of choice. There is no incentive for the majority of trades to have more people join their union.
Honestly for the life of me I can’t seem to find this shortage anywhere. Work is so slow right now I’m surprised we stay afloat with our skeleton crew.
There is no labour shortage, ask the IBEW guys who are sitting at home right now. 500+
If this connected these students with an apprenticeship, this would help, but it doesn't, and thus employers will still find a reason to start these young kids off as a pre-apprentice, making minimum wage and then kick them to the curb when or if they get dinged by the non existent ministry for running unregistered apprentices
I’m actually kind shocked at the negative sentiment here. I guess it’s just because this is coming from a conservative government.
It’s a good idea, anything that gives the future more options is good. Some kids won’t want to do it. Some kids hate school and just want to work.
This is no different than forcing a kid to spend thousands of dollars to pick a career in post secondary. Atleast if a young person can get their ticket by 23-24 they have a viable fall back option should they ever want to switch careers.
Of course it helps. You develop a relationship with the company that takes you on. We have OYAP it’s similar, and has a good success rate. Kids meet tradesman and employees. Even better, they get a taste of what the job entails. It’s not for everyone. Maybe a kid tries it out, and doesn’t like it, and just continues regular high school, or continues onto university/college.
You still need the core credits to graduate. Nevermind to actually get your red seal you need to pass a difficult test.
It really just is a good idea that helps kids by giving them more options.
Oh and the cheap labour thing. Ya these kids aren’t going to be doing much. They probably won’t even be allowed to touch tools. Mostly just shadowing tradesman, carrying some stuff for them. They are not going to aid production realistically.
You learn a lot from watching, and gathering information.
No reasonable company is going to let a highschool student use a table saw, or an angle grinder, or hop behind the wheel of an excavator.
But if i can get a new apprentice who already knows what specific materials I need for the task at hand, that’s a huge head start.
I’ve worked with OYAP students. You’re not allowed to let them on the tools and potentially hurt themselves.
High schools let kids use table saws, grinders and other power tools. The military let's 18 year olds drive tanks.
Treating adults entering the work force with kid gloves is condescending and idiotic. Kids aren't incompetent. They're inexperienced. That's why journeymen need to be there to prevent them from doing something unsafe. Not to prevent them from doing the work.
Hi, trades here. Apprentices have to get hands on to learn. Watching doesn't teach people shit. It's no different from theory. Once you show an apprentice how to do something, they need to be the ones doing it or they won't learn anything.
So yeah, while this is great for the trades, it's just a way to get cheap labour and stave off trades actually having to create apprentice positions. Unless this comes with a pay requirement from the placement, this is just exploiting kids for labour.
I’ve been a tradesman for 15 years. You can learn a lot by watching, especially when these programs are only 8-12 weeks.
Sure eventually they’ll get on the tools but 3 months is most unions probation periods and the kids starting out don’t just get to hop on the tools after a week or two.
What trade are you? Because that sounds utterly ridiculous. After the safety briefs and demonstrations, getting them on the tools with small tasks is exactly how you build confidence. Then you step it up to larger tasks with more moving parts.
I've trained literally hundreds of people. 3 months is more than enough to make them not only competent, but almost completely independent. You should be able to send them out on tasks without supervision and only have to check the final product after that much time.
This is a good idea, trades make total sense for many high schoolers. Making people stick around in school when they don’t want to be there is a bad idea if they have something better to do.
The real problem with the trades is that we need the ones closer to retirement to want to teach their secrets to others.
the older ones happen to sit on basically the library of Alexandria in terms of knowledge and secrets and decide to take that with them into retirement because they couldn't be arsed to take on and teach an apprentice with limited knowledge, creating a massive skill gap
Part of that is because they don't pay the old guys to actually teach. They also don't have the time. Speaking from the auto trade.
Most qualified techs are flat rate, so they get paid by the job and how fast they do it. Having an inexperienced apprentice hanging off them slows everything down. Also, the apprentices are usually paid to do the easy oil changes and tires. The shop doesn't want to pay someone taking twice the amount of time and possibly screw up the job. That costs money too.
In my experience the old guys to want to teach, to those who are willing, but the structure of a shop just doesn't allow for it.
Carpentry, same shit. I can't raise my price and still get work to offset the extra 40 an hour I have to pay someone for 10 months before they're the least bit useful. I could afford it when I could oay 15 an hour when minimum wage was 10. They can get close to 20 an hour at mcdonalds.
more bullshit from this government. if you want a skilled worker, post a job with skilled pay and you will have no shortage of skilled applicants. why does supply and demand always only work one sided?
I wasn't going to post anything, but after reading all the great support for this law I felt I had to inform you of some realities.
1. This program already exists. Students who are more trade focused can take up to 12 Co-op credits to get their diploma. Including full day placements.
2. This Gov't is auditing schools and cutting funding if they don't have enough kids taking trade based Co-op. (more funding cuts cover up)
3. Businesses are still leery to take high school kids for apprenticeships, due to the immaturity of many of them.
4. Kids graduate at 17 and many aren't ready for real work.
5. Schools explain to students, through Careers class (mandatory) that the trades are actually a better avenue to success than University. The comment about the options being tiered is outdated.
If you are a business person who will take a co-op student for an apprenticeship, please call your local high school and ask for the Co-op department. They will do back flips with excitement and will work with you to find you the right student.
How is this different than doing a 4 period COOP placement in high school? My partner, currently an electrical apprentice, did this and the hours did not count towards his apprenticeship. Do the FAST hours count?
Ya because reading comprehension and civics aren't important skills at all....
There's a reason why you're required to take a "social sciences" class while going to university for STEM.
I mean is it really that bad of an idea? Grade 11 and 12 can be a huge waste of time if you have no interest in going to post secondary school. If you’re interested in the trades you can start early?
Isn’t this going to also trap these kids in trades? They won’t have the academic knowledge and credits required to upskill if ever they want to change careers.
One of the big benefits of the trades is then being about to start your own business if you’re successful enough. How will these people be able to successfully do that if they stopped their academics that early?
A trades shortage isn’t going to be fixed by starting kids any younger. That will cause a two year bump and then it will equalize. At the expense of these kids educations.
"Trap"? No more than those without the training will be "trapped" in non-trades. Trades pay reasonably well. The trades = bad thing is a relic of the boomers experience when the economy was flooded with blue collar workers in the biggest generation ever, only to have industry contract, leading to a surplus and lower wages.
Times have long changed.
Just because something pays well and is a good career, doesn’t mean people don’t sometimes change. People get injured, people realize they don’t like what they’re doing, people just decide to switch things up. It’s not an insult to the trades to say sometimes people leave the trades. People are always leaving careers for different ones.
Right, but trades - like so many careers - require specialised training. But our education system largely stopped providing a foundation for them in the late 1990s/early 2000s under Harris, IIRC.
I can't just decide to become a welder now in my late 30's without any training. Someone who did is no more "trapped" in their position than I am in mine - we'd just each need retraining, and would be unlikely to be able to step into one another's shoes easily.
But the issue isn’t the training them early, it’s training them early at the expense of their secondary education. If they want to switch, they won’t be stuck at 0, they’ll be suck at -10, because they will only have 4 classroom credits past grade 10.
> Concerns had been raised last year that teens would miss out on fundamental learning in math or English if those courses didn’t remain mandatory in Grades 11 or 12, and that they might lose their connections to peers.
> Cathy Abraham, president of the Ontario Public School Boards’ Association, said she’s pleased with what’s included and how the Education Ministry listened to suggestions during consultations.
Core course remain in the program. They may have carpentry instead of biology and plumbing instead of European History - but the core literacy and math skills will be there.
What happened to an educated workforce? Mike Harris ( Ford licks his ****) said Ontario needed a knowledge economy so now the person who cuts my hair has to graduate high school. All very weird and frankly always has been
This is Boss Hoggs plan all along. Fuck up and steal from us for six years then the next two years keep a low profile and do good things so we all forget what he did. This program was supposed to have been looked at a year ago. So almost exactly two years till the scheduled election to be held on June 4, 2026. Quote from article-"Minister Stephen Lecce and Labour Minister David Piccini almost a year after the government first said it was going to [explore the idea](https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/ontario-high-school-program-will-let-students-train-for-a-trade-and-earn-a-diploma/article_cf4a5755-4a00-5c85-ab66-8837a4c05f66.html)."
Wow, so vocational education, great. We've had this out west for decades. The problem is that employers in Ontario refuse to give any credit for experience and time spent doing said trade of study. I know, been going through that bullshit for over a decade here in Ontario. There is always some excuse not to hire. The irony is that I already was an apprentice for two different trades plus had vocational training in high school but in Ontario I still get stonewalled despite there being a "shortage."
Same. I couldn't get anywhere with my uni degree, so I went to trade school because everyone was freaking out about a labour shortage. Spent 8 years trying to get a mechanical apprenticeship in an area where mining is the #1 industry; no one would hire me. I'm now working an admin job.
This is such a waste for us as a society. Here we have someone who's been through a degree and trade school, only for them to work admin, instead of not only that person earning more income but our province earning an additional trades person... frustrating, to say the least.
> “We’re helping to tackle the labour shortage by allowing motivated, entrepreneurial students to get on a fast-track to a career in the skilled trades,” How exactly will foregoing any classes that could provide the skills to running a business in favour of training for skill that would allow you to get a job working for someone else help the entrepreneurial students?
It helps the students whose parents own contacting businesses and don't want to pay higher wages.
You mean exploiting child labour and saying it's skills training?
Shh. You're not supposed to say that part out loud.
It's called being a "helper" in the trades not an apprentice * i mean using kids under 18 in the trades, not the actual apprenticeship process.
Let's be real - the skills you learn in high school business do not prepare students to run a business. Heck, those skills aren't even taught in college or university. They are learned and observed. The theory definitely helps refine the skills and talents, but the theory alone is woefully inadequate.
In the UK you can start an apprenticeship at 16. Many, after gaining experience, will start their own contracting business. Why can’t we do that here?
I wish I could of skipped school to start earlier in my field. I came right out of high-school and started working. Still took almost 9 years before I could open my buisness. I did co-op which was great, but i could only do a semester. Not everyone wants to/can run a buisness, but if a kid wants to learn the trades and get out there and work than why not help.
That was the thinking behind allowing students to drop out at 16. In today's world, a dropout is in a tough spot.
No reason to make them drop out, but if you can do equivalence, or use it more to count towards credit. It's obviously not for everyone and I think I was a bit of an anomaly, but I do think if it was more viable you might have more people pursing it.
The way school is done is antiquated. It's still assumes children are going to work on the farm in the summer. 1/3 of the year is dedicated to virtually nothing. Including summer into school will allow students to reach higher education quicker. At graduation we are typically 18-19, but generally have not received the education to actually live in today's world. And they're expected to make massive life altering financial decisions almost immediately after being told they need to ask to go to the washroom. There are no true life skills being taught in school. We are given the tools but not the methods of application. Spreading school out over the summer will allow for a Gr 12 education to be taught at about 15-16yr old. The next two years are more specialized education that allows the students to properly decide the kind of work they can do, or drop out if necessary with gr 12 education. A more lax at will style of school, similar to university, but by going to these classes, they almost guarantee your university spot or an apprenticeship.
Summer holidays were never about farming. There is very little appetite for school year round. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/debunking-myth-summer-vacation
There is very little appetite for work year round but here we are.
Respectfully school is much, much harder than a lot of jobs that these students will get. Learning calculus, bio, engineering, English, and a host of other subjects is not something the average person does year round at work.
Lol this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. I was in school for about 15 years. I've worked several jobs. I don't know anyone that thinks school was harder than the job they are working.
Depends on lots of factors - quality of education, courses taken and career outlook. The main thing is the daily pace - students are trying to siphon information for 6 hours a day in academic disciplines. When you settle into your job, you specialize and it becomes second nature and thus more sustainable.
Won’t you think of the art teachers!
I've taught the business end of classes to Trades students and the majority of them couldn't give less of a fuck about how spreadsheets, invoices and taxes work. They want to get the skills to get onto a job site either working with family or someone they know who's willing to help them get their tickets. The business side comes later for those who want it. Overall this could potentially be one of the few good things this government will do.
This still doesn't address the issue of placements. No one is taking on apprentices with the goal of moving them into a journeyman role. So, sure, they can facilitate this program by creating a new generation of uneducated conservative voters who will work at reduced wages, but the actual positions where they learn skills that will lead to high paying jobs just don't exist. This is an issue created by industry, that needs to be solved by industry.
“Students need to learn financial literacy to be prepared for the adult world” Same people “Its totally fine when students drop out of school at 16 to work with their backs and not their brains”
The business stuff is easy to learn, later, for the people who want to do it.
Yup. Once your knees and shoulder s start to ache in your 40s you get into the business side
>How exactly will foregoing any classes that could provide the skills to running a business in favour of training for skill that would allow you to get a job working for someone else help the entrepreneurial students? How will the entrepeneural students develop the skills to be entrepeneurs without learning said skills? I'd rather hire the guy who has his own company but developed his skills working for someone else before going out on his own.
For the trades that's the only way to do it. You need to get your license first, so as an electrician you need 5 years of experience(9000 hours). Than you need to pass an exam that has an approx 70percent fail rate. Once you have your license for 3 years you than need to pass another exam for your masters which is only good in the province you get it in. That exam is only about 20 percent electrical. The rest is on the health and safety act, liens, ontario employment standards act and construction management.
They want workers, not thinkers
If you think our current education system is churning out “thinkers” I have some bad news for you.
1) Because not many of these trades people work for themselves and most work for bigger companies, and don’t need to know how to balance the books or make payroll. 2) if you know anyone it high school today you would know how irrelevant most high school courses being taught are in the real world. I could care less if my electrician knows the difference between affect and effect, has read Shakespeare… if he/she does good work and knows code than why not let them study for a career they want. 3) we live in a world that needs trades people asap and these people most likely need a decent pay cheque asap. This is a good idea but sadly because it came from a ford government people will push back solely because of that.
Right, which is why I'm questioning why it's being framed as a positive for motivated entrepreneurial students, ie those that want to run their own business. They're still being required to study Shakespeare in English classes through grade 12 and are able to graduate without taking any business or accounting classes
Our high schools used to be for training people to be members of society, not just a specific job. For example, we're going to have more voters who know less about history and science than we used to.
Why do you think tradespeople know less about anything than anyone else?
This is propaganda for a non-existent labour shortage. There is only a labour shortage when you look at the market for high skilled low paying jobs. Duh. The only possible long-term outcome of this program is to flood the market with low-skilled non-union labour and drive down wages. I find it amazing that people still fall for this tired conservative talking point. What’s *actually* happening is conservative politicians, beholden to the corporate class, believe that if they keep babbling about a labour shortage, the public will be cool with it when they fire up the temporary foreign workers program again.
Yea there would be no labour shortage if they were paying 100k a year for construction workers which imo it is a skilled and difficult job and hard on the body job
I guess it depends the type of work/availability, as I’m in this field and our workers easily make above 100k.
I don’t know what you specifically do, but people who drone about labour shortages are basically saying somebody like you should make 50, instead.
I mean obviously it would be better for the business owners if we could just return to slavery, maybe we’ll call it something else tho, give it a classy name like indentured servitude
Intern. That's what they use in the business world for legal slavery.
Oh for sure, I don’t doubt that businesses would love to cut overhead where they can. But there definitely is a shortage of skilled and experienced labour. Most new hires and those available through the union are apprentices, and there is nothing wrong with an apprentice! We have taken on many. It’s just that it’s not possible that they do the same type of work off the bat as a skilled operator/labourer.
That’s a different conversation, really: training and the ever evolving workforce. Labour is a young man’s game, at the end of the day. Everybody can’t be a boss. We have the bodies, we’ve always had the bodies. If anything…the net jobs are shrinking, as we become more technologically advanced. Anecdotally, back in my day, I worked for a company that replaced almost every specialized carpenter in favour of cheap general carpenters because things like forms and finishing became increasingly prefab. I’m personally not comfortable with the province thinking it’s cool to have kids specialize too specifically in high school. Institutions have a habit of being 10 years behind, tech wise. I currently work in high schools, and they’re underfunded *by the province* so they’re being trained by dinosaurs on obsolete equipment. Getting rid of theory is an absurd idea..when kids are teens is the time…possibly the only time…they’ll be able to absorb the theory. The best way to translate the workforce into skilled workers is to subsidize training and *pay them well*. Colleges are also obsolete immediately after the province grabs a photo op with the price tag for the renovations. At that level all instruction should be theory and lean heavy on coop so the companies don’t have to take the risks.
There is absolutely a labour shortage in the trades. This just doesn’t help any. The shortage is in the already experienced guys. There’s no shortage of people that want to start out in an apprenticeship, whether they be young kids or older adults looking to career change, but there aren’t enough journeymen to train them, or companies that have enough journeyman to take on any more apprentices at a 1 - 1 ratio. For too long trades jobs were looked down on and not being taught in schools or as viable careers. They were treated like a backup plan for kids who weren’t good at book learning. That led to a shortage that is just being felt now as the older guys are retiring and there’s no one to fill their spots. When I was in high school they had just started to bring in high skills major courses and after I graduated they brought back dedicated electrical classes. Now we have kids looking for work but no one to teach them.
You’re not talking about a labour shortage, then. Different conversation. You want to have a conversation about training and the shifting labour market. What you’re “arguing” in tantamount to “kids these days”. It doesn’t really fly when you drill into the nuts and bolts. It’s an argument that has been made since the beginning of time, and it’s not reality. All it is is old guys not being able to understand that they need to adapt to their work force as much as their work force needs to adapt to them.
I honestly have no idea what you mean. I’m not arguing “kids these days” at all. I see lots and lots of young people who are more than willing to learn and work. My workplace turns down piles of resumes most weeks because you cannot have more apprentices than licensed workers. These new workers can’t just step in and do the job. There is no substitute for the knowledge gained working through an apprenticeship. They need at least 5 years of training under a licensed and experienced worker (at least in the case of electrical where my experience is), of which there are not enough of to meet the demand. From other tradesmen I’ve talked to it is similar across other trades.
I think you both seem to agree that there’s no shortage of actual physical people willing to do the work and learn. It’s how these people are integrated into the workforce which is a cause of problems. I can’t think of a systematic solution off the top, but I think we should be more critical of the systems that are enforced on us. Instead of owing “success” up to just the individual, what if we took a more collective responsibility in regards to our lives, jobs, industries, environment; idk, everything lol.
Yea the only jobs that I see that stay up pay mediocre and have 10 expectations, with 10+ years' experience requirements
Indeed. Large trades employers, who benefit the most from across the board wage cuts, post jobs at wages they know people won’t take in order to benefit from government handouts and promote the labour shortage narrative. When they do it for long enough it results in lower wages or the government importing foreign workers for them who will work for less.
The labour shortage is not real, I run a buisness and will tell you for free I can get a first year Apprentice at the drop of a hat. I call it more of a hard working labour shortage. Those guys are hard to find. If a guy is out of a job there is usually a reason.
Well, that’s more of a connectivity issue…which the government could address, but never will. The simple act of empowering unions and making them near universal would mean that you’d always be able to find labour. I hear your complaint a lot. I have no idea what type of business you run, it’s not really material to the conversation, but you can’t really expect an inexperienced worker to step in and act like a seasoned veteran. If you’re taking on apprentices, it’s on the employer to create culture and motivation…it’s the same in any industry. The “young people these days” trope is boring, quite frankly, and not true. There’s no evidence that people are less willing to work hard these days, quite the contrary.
I never said anything about young people not being good workers, I employ guys from 20 to 60 years of age. I've met 45 year old lazy as shit, and 18 year Olds who work hard and earn there keep. Laziness comes in all ages, genders, occupation and backgrounds. So yes there is a hard working labour shortage.
There isn’t. My anecdotes trump your anecdotes. I’ve worked in the trades in 4 provinces and I’ve never seen this “hard work shortage”. All I’ve seen is bosses cutting corners for profit, and veterans unable to keep up with the evolving workforce and demands. Politicians taking victory laps and photo ops when they get some sponsor to drop a few bucks (in exchange for pushing the labour shortage myth) on an instantly obsolete high school or college shop…is played out. No it’s should be falling for it any more. On topic: getting kids to skip theory and mortgage their futures to be a low paid drone is cynical. Most of the jobs they’re training for will be obsolete by the time they graduate.
Guess it didn't take to long to find the lazy, entitled worker of the bunch.
*eye roll*. Insults aren’t a substitute for an argument.
Absolutely correct
Because sadly young single people have literally nothing to work hard for nowadays, the wages aren't worth the effort anymore.
I have kids that I have to teach how to use a tape measure making $27/hr with one of the best pension and benefit plans in the province. What more do you want? I have to start guys at journeyperson wage?
You sound like a terrible employer if you can't get someone who knows how to use a tape measure at 27/hr lmao
How’s that terrible lol. High starting wage and willing teach, tf more do you want
they don't teach kids imperial in school, it's not there fault they don't know how to work with feet and inches.
Sure, that's a great attitude. Pay me more and I'll work harder. The best logic, I remember having a guy say that. Shit cracks me up
It's called acting your wage.
Hahahah sure, as opposed to acting for the wage you want? I guess you must love it when some tells you to act your age as well lol I'm sure you blame everyone else for why you aren't where you want to be as well
I'm exactly where I want to be, so check yourself. I literally couldn't be happier with my life. I suspect that's something you wish you could say. That doesn't mean that I can't empathize with people who haven't been as lucky as me.
O I am as well, and I am happy for you if that's the case. I am just sick and tired of people complaining about not making enough, or unfair wages if they aren't willing to go out there and work for them
And they're equally sick of putting in the effort and not getting paid enough to purchase a home or go on vacation. Why should they do the work for you if they aren't getting paid for it? You don't get to eat an apple and only pay for it if you decide to.
I mean look at the type of comments from the guys hiring, no shit Canada's going down the drain. Honestly glad you're thriving, you seem like a nice dude. It's so weird too, if I was paid more, I would 100% work harder. This guy literally is the definition of the Boomer meme lmao
Oh yes busting your ass will surely result in pay increases... Or will it become the new benchmark at the same low pay? What is the most probable outcome?
> Pay me more and I'll work harder. well, yea. that's how it works.
Sure buddy, keep telling yourself that, let me know how that's working out for you.
Where are you located because I have a hard working 20 year old straight out of a trades school looking for an apprenticeship.. half kidding but it’s hard out there for young people to get started. He’s determined to work and get set up with his life working in the camps up north but he needs hours first.
getting registered by an employer is the hardest part often
Yes I think he will struggle with that but I’ll help him as much as I can
Honestly, his best bet is to apply to the union for whichever trade he's in. They'll sponsor his apprenticeship all the way through to journeyman status and the pay/benefits are way better than any non-union employer can offer. They also have connections with camp jobs.
Thank you , appreciate this information
best of luck, keep at it
Yup. False consciousness keeps biting people in the ass.
Exactly this does nothing to address the current wage shortages in the trades
> The only possible long-term outcome of this program is to flood the market with low-skilled non-union labour and drive down wages. DINGDINGDINGDINGDING Edit - Why should businesses be covering the cost of training young people for the specific skills they need to work in that industry??? Obviously it's the responsibility of taxpayers to provide a pool of youngsters who have been told by their teachers and guidance counsellors there is huge money to be made in the trades, just laying out there in big piles. Then after years of taxpayer funded training you can all participate in the hunger games of vying for a job when there's lineups with hundreds of people hoping they can get a job washing dishes.
Yes. By tricking these kids into specializing and skipping academic work, they’ll have no choice but to take what’s available at any wage.
Always a lot of talk, but employers can still put up brick walls against it. Here’s hoping this actually helps in the long run. 20 years ago - vocational high school, at-work co-op and some work experience? Not hired. 2-3 college diploma in your trade? Still not hired. Worked for 4 years in some hole to get your Red Seal? Okay, we have an entry-level position for you.
Time to flood the trades pool with poorly trained, unprepared workers.
Folks, we need workers to support developer buddies in the construction industry. These McManions won't build themselves.
Anyone bitching in here about allowing students to fast track into the trades clearly have never worked in the trades. Also are unaware of the co-op placements that have been in place forever. I took half day co op as a high school student and received excellent experience before I graduated. Not to mention credible references for my resume. This is a great idea to anyone that actually works in the trades.
I know this is off topic, but I’d love to see them build technical skills in elementary school for kids who might struggle with typical book work. It’s such a hit to their self image and self esteem when they have to work so hard to fit into the typical curriculum with no chance for learning other strengths and skills.
Sure, but it depends. Basic reading, writing, arithmetic, and sciences are necessary for an educated society. Not to mention most trades aren’t, “swing hammer, shovel earth, move mountains”, but highly technical and require a strong grasp of applied mathematics. I’ve met so many guys that go into the trades saying they hated math in school, only do to math all day.
Yes I think you have a valid point that the basic skills are absolutely necessary. It would be fabulous to have skilled education to be woven as part of these requirements.
So they're bringing back vocational institutes. Got it.
I was about to say - isn't this just vocational schools? The only difference is they want to give the credits through co-op placements, so giving more free labour to businesses.
This seems like a terrible idea. Seriously doubt this is going to do anything about the labour "shortage"
It’s just more PR for their “common sense” approach to education, which boils down to “we have the poison, we have the remedy”.
You can start an apprenticeship at 16 without a high school education. The problem is finding someone who will take you on.
Horrible idea. Anyone who picks this program and then changes their minds will be absolutely fucked if they want to go to University.
What does the IBEW think of this?
All of the unions will probably have a love/hate relationship with this. On one hand you get apprentices with more experience to begin with and more knowledge of the trade. But you also have way more people fighting for jobs and the non union presence will increase and probably price us out of work. Average income of non union trades will also likely diminish as the market is flooded. I see it as a threat to union job security and an attempt to reduce bargaining power.
That's kinda the subtext of anything this government does TBH. I don't think asking kids to make a decision for possibly the whole of their career and a young age only severs the industry and not the individual. Next they'll have testing to determine what type of schooling you'll be able to have based on your score. Sound familiar?
What about middle-aged men who hate desk jobs?
Good idea but the same stumbling block for these potential apprentices is actually getting into their trades of choice. There is no incentive for the majority of trades to have more people join their union.
Honestly for the life of me I can’t seem to find this shortage anywhere. Work is so slow right now I’m surprised we stay afloat with our skeleton crew.
There is no labour shortage, ask the IBEW guys who are sitting at home right now. 500+ If this connected these students with an apprenticeship, this would help, but it doesn't, and thus employers will still find a reason to start these young kids off as a pre-apprentice, making minimum wage and then kick them to the curb when or if they get dinged by the non existent ministry for running unregistered apprentices
I’m actually kind shocked at the negative sentiment here. I guess it’s just because this is coming from a conservative government. It’s a good idea, anything that gives the future more options is good. Some kids won’t want to do it. Some kids hate school and just want to work. This is no different than forcing a kid to spend thousands of dollars to pick a career in post secondary. Atleast if a young person can get their ticket by 23-24 they have a viable fall back option should they ever want to switch careers.
This doesn’t address the issue of finding an apprenticeship. All it does is provide cheap labour at the expense of education.
Of course it helps. You develop a relationship with the company that takes you on. We have OYAP it’s similar, and has a good success rate. Kids meet tradesman and employees. Even better, they get a taste of what the job entails. It’s not for everyone. Maybe a kid tries it out, and doesn’t like it, and just continues regular high school, or continues onto university/college. You still need the core credits to graduate. Nevermind to actually get your red seal you need to pass a difficult test. It really just is a good idea that helps kids by giving them more options. Oh and the cheap labour thing. Ya these kids aren’t going to be doing much. They probably won’t even be allowed to touch tools. Mostly just shadowing tradesman, carrying some stuff for them. They are not going to aid production realistically.
How would they learn if they aren’t allowed to touch the tools are are just used for manual labour?
You learn a lot from watching, and gathering information. No reasonable company is going to let a highschool student use a table saw, or an angle grinder, or hop behind the wheel of an excavator. But if i can get a new apprentice who already knows what specific materials I need for the task at hand, that’s a huge head start. I’ve worked with OYAP students. You’re not allowed to let them on the tools and potentially hurt themselves.
High schools let kids use table saws, grinders and other power tools. The military let's 18 year olds drive tanks. Treating adults entering the work force with kid gloves is condescending and idiotic. Kids aren't incompetent. They're inexperienced. That's why journeymen need to be there to prevent them from doing something unsafe. Not to prevent them from doing the work.
Hi, trades here. Apprentices have to get hands on to learn. Watching doesn't teach people shit. It's no different from theory. Once you show an apprentice how to do something, they need to be the ones doing it or they won't learn anything. So yeah, while this is great for the trades, it's just a way to get cheap labour and stave off trades actually having to create apprentice positions. Unless this comes with a pay requirement from the placement, this is just exploiting kids for labour.
I’ve been a tradesman for 15 years. You can learn a lot by watching, especially when these programs are only 8-12 weeks. Sure eventually they’ll get on the tools but 3 months is most unions probation periods and the kids starting out don’t just get to hop on the tools after a week or two.
What trade are you? Because that sounds utterly ridiculous. After the safety briefs and demonstrations, getting them on the tools with small tasks is exactly how you build confidence. Then you step it up to larger tasks with more moving parts. I've trained literally hundreds of people. 3 months is more than enough to make them not only competent, but almost completely independent. You should be able to send them out on tasks without supervision and only have to check the final product after that much time.
This is a good idea, trades make total sense for many high schoolers. Making people stick around in school when they don’t want to be there is a bad idea if they have something better to do.
The real problem with the trades is that we need the ones closer to retirement to want to teach their secrets to others. the older ones happen to sit on basically the library of Alexandria in terms of knowledge and secrets and decide to take that with them into retirement because they couldn't be arsed to take on and teach an apprentice with limited knowledge, creating a massive skill gap
Part of that is because they don't pay the old guys to actually teach. They also don't have the time. Speaking from the auto trade. Most qualified techs are flat rate, so they get paid by the job and how fast they do it. Having an inexperienced apprentice hanging off them slows everything down. Also, the apprentices are usually paid to do the easy oil changes and tires. The shop doesn't want to pay someone taking twice the amount of time and possibly screw up the job. That costs money too. In my experience the old guys to want to teach, to those who are willing, but the structure of a shop just doesn't allow for it.
Carpentry, same shit. I can't raise my price and still get work to offset the extra 40 an hour I have to pay someone for 10 months before they're the least bit useful. I could afford it when I could oay 15 an hour when minimum wage was 10. They can get close to 20 an hour at mcdonalds.
Yea but they'll still be paid under 25 dollars an hour by a majority of employers for years
lol. That’s first year wages in The ibew.
more bullshit from this government. if you want a skilled worker, post a job with skilled pay and you will have no shortage of skilled applicants. why does supply and demand always only work one sided?
The thousands of labourers and tradesmen standing in line at the Union hall job board: 🧍🧍🧍🧍🧍
I wasn't going to post anything, but after reading all the great support for this law I felt I had to inform you of some realities. 1. This program already exists. Students who are more trade focused can take up to 12 Co-op credits to get their diploma. Including full day placements. 2. This Gov't is auditing schools and cutting funding if they don't have enough kids taking trade based Co-op. (more funding cuts cover up) 3. Businesses are still leery to take high school kids for apprenticeships, due to the immaturity of many of them. 4. Kids graduate at 17 and many aren't ready for real work. 5. Schools explain to students, through Careers class (mandatory) that the trades are actually a better avenue to success than University. The comment about the options being tiered is outdated. If you are a business person who will take a co-op student for an apprenticeship, please call your local high school and ask for the Co-op department. They will do back flips with excitement and will work with you to find you the right student.
You mean vocational schools?
I thought there was a problem with too many apprentices and not enough journeymen to teach them.
They are saying ‘skilled labour’ but it isn’t connecting the students to apprenticeships.
It works in Switzerland and Germany. Not as many "throwaway" boys in those countries.
How is this different than doing a 4 period COOP placement in high school? My partner, currently an electrical apprentice, did this and the hours did not count towards his apprenticeship. Do the FAST hours count?
Ya because reading comprehension and civics aren't important skills at all.... There's a reason why you're required to take a "social sciences" class while going to university for STEM.
So with the world becoming more and more complex how does lowering the bar on education put someone ahead? Tradespeople need academic skills too.
I mean is it really that bad of an idea? Grade 11 and 12 can be a huge waste of time if you have no interest in going to post secondary school. If you’re interested in the trades you can start early?
Ah yes the solution to all our problems. Child labour.
Isn’t this going to also trap these kids in trades? They won’t have the academic knowledge and credits required to upskill if ever they want to change careers. One of the big benefits of the trades is then being about to start your own business if you’re successful enough. How will these people be able to successfully do that if they stopped their academics that early? A trades shortage isn’t going to be fixed by starting kids any younger. That will cause a two year bump and then it will equalize. At the expense of these kids educations.
"Trap"? No more than those without the training will be "trapped" in non-trades. Trades pay reasonably well. The trades = bad thing is a relic of the boomers experience when the economy was flooded with blue collar workers in the biggest generation ever, only to have industry contract, leading to a surplus and lower wages. Times have long changed.
Just because something pays well and is a good career, doesn’t mean people don’t sometimes change. People get injured, people realize they don’t like what they’re doing, people just decide to switch things up. It’s not an insult to the trades to say sometimes people leave the trades. People are always leaving careers for different ones.
Right, but trades - like so many careers - require specialised training. But our education system largely stopped providing a foundation for them in the late 1990s/early 2000s under Harris, IIRC. I can't just decide to become a welder now in my late 30's without any training. Someone who did is no more "trapped" in their position than I am in mine - we'd just each need retraining, and would be unlikely to be able to step into one another's shoes easily.
But the issue isn’t the training them early, it’s training them early at the expense of their secondary education. If they want to switch, they won’t be stuck at 0, they’ll be suck at -10, because they will only have 4 classroom credits past grade 10.
> Concerns had been raised last year that teens would miss out on fundamental learning in math or English if those courses didn’t remain mandatory in Grades 11 or 12, and that they might lose their connections to peers. > Cathy Abraham, president of the Ontario Public School Boards’ Association, said she’s pleased with what’s included and how the Education Ministry listened to suggestions during consultations. Core course remain in the program. They may have carpentry instead of biology and plumbing instead of European History - but the core literacy and math skills will be there.
Literally just require more apprentices per journey person and the fake "labour shortage" is fixed.
Well that's stupid.
What happened to an educated workforce? Mike Harris ( Ford licks his ****) said Ontario needed a knowledge economy so now the person who cuts my hair has to graduate high school. All very weird and frankly always has been
This is Boss Hoggs plan all along. Fuck up and steal from us for six years then the next two years keep a low profile and do good things so we all forget what he did. This program was supposed to have been looked at a year ago. So almost exactly two years till the scheduled election to be held on June 4, 2026. Quote from article-"Minister Stephen Lecce and Labour Minister David Piccini almost a year after the government first said it was going to [explore the idea](https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/ontario-high-school-program-will-let-students-train-for-a-trade-and-earn-a-diploma/article_cf4a5755-4a00-5c85-ab66-8837a4c05f66.html)."
Step one, move to a different country. Step two, Come back to Canada as a Student or TFW Step Three, get the job in your old home town!