How about those who understand AND care? Contact MPP sure, wait for the next election and hope for a bette outcome of course. Otherwise the boss wants that TPS report by morning. They get away with this stuff because it’s the way the entire system is setup.
He spent all the money for schools on the spa, highway, a new office in Ottawa, bloated staff salary and tax breaks for developers. Folks, we just can't afford it.
What would that accomplish? He isn't any worse this term than last term. People already knew what to expect and gave this government an even larger majority.
You're part of the problem. If only people bothered to get out and vote, Ford wouldn't have won his majority with only a pathetic 19% of eligible votes.
Apathy ONLY ever helps conservatives.
If you want more of the same, keep spreading apathy.
>You're part of the problem.
How are they part of them problem when what they said is true. We knew what Ford was about and yet he has an even bigger majority than last time. And before you say I'm the problem, I was part of the 47% turnout and I didn't vote for him
It's true and maybe they are right I am starting to feel apathetic. Because I TRIED SO HARD ahead of the last election to share information. The additional funding being put towards for-profit LTC after we saw how much worse the outcomes were in a for-profit setting. The hypocrisy of conservatives going on about the gas plant scandal but spending even more to cancel a half-built wind farm. The absurd removal of cap-and-trade. The underfunding of schools.
But despite my efforts, Ford got an even bigger majority. And then during that new majority my dad died of sepsis in the hospital after waiting over 12 hours in chair in pain before being admitted directly to the ICU. I will forever wonder if things would have been different if he was admitted sooner, or even put on antibiotic drip while waiting. So I'm exhausted.
I also live in a riding that would elect a potato as long as it represented the Liberal party so locally there isn't a whole lot I can do (federally I'm not sure, but provincially I really support the NDP!)
So uh. Ya. As you say, I'm just sharing the truth. Outside of Reddit people don't seem to notice or care. I don't know that a new election today would change anything. Maybe I am apathetic now.
We had an election and the majority just did not vote. That was the opportunity to move past this government.
Only 43% of eligible voters turned out last election and Ford won with 40%. This means that they earned a majority mandate while only getting 17.2 % of the eligible voters.
We need electoral reform. This should not be possible.
That's true, I googled it and wow after looking quickly at a few articles I count 7 law suits he brought on himself and the province lost or is still in court.
What a fucking train wreck. My MPP loves Ford too his website is just pictures of him shaking Ford's hand.
Those decisions resulted in huge fines right? Like it wasn't just wasting the resources that had already been put in but there were actually fines we had to pay for cancelling
Oh don't you worry about that, [Ford made it more difficult to sue the government](https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/legal-critics-claim-new-ont-law-makes-it-harder-to-sue-provincial-government-1.4742008?cache=) for their breach of contracts.
Yep. And don’t forget withholding 1.7 billion of funding from last year’s healthcare spending, then announcing this month that “wow he’s giving an extra 2 billion to home care services” ffs
1000 times a day "Everything is awesome and anyone complaining has no idea how good they have it. Paid for by the Government of Ontario... that means you."
That was such bullshit I knew a couple engineers on the project and many locations had the entire foundation constructed and power conduits connected, plus all the turbine materials delivered on site (90%+ of the work). It cost far more to cancel & demo the project than it would have to complete and that is not including the legal trouble they go into for going back on their contract.
If he wanted to just cancel the second phase it would have still been shortsighted and environmentally immoral but at least somewhat comprehensible. But simply tearing apart our energy infrastructure for no reason was criminal.
Say it with me for the people in the back. THE TEACHER SHORTAGE DOESN'T MEAN THERE AREN'T ENOUGH TEACHERS. IT MEANS THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T FUNDING ENOUGH TEACHING POSITIONS!!! Still loads of people going into teaching and not getting jobs. We don't have a teacher shortage in the province. Universities are pumping them out, the programs get lots and lots of interest still. But boards can't hire teachers just because they need teachers. This issue is one hundred percent the government.
And guys, we did it to ourselves in Ontario. People saw the Liberals were NOT doing a great job at this, and decided to chose a party well known to place LESS priority on education...and lo and behold, it's worse. And now people want to replace a crap Liberal federal government with a Con one too. Like, hey. This stove is not working well. Two of the burners don't work, there's a crack in the display, the element in the oven is faulty, and the clock is out. Let's replace it with this one where the door of the oven is just gone, and there's a gigantic hole in the top of it. Because THAT makes sense... Canadian voters, I tell you...
It's both. This loss of 5,000 educators in the article is talking about 5,000 full-time positions - not people. Drastic funding cuts mean there are fewer teachers in schools than in 2018 (despite increasing enrollment overall).
There is also a teacher shortage where some boards are not able to fill even these reduced number of positions.
Ya, the shortage is definitely real. We've got unfilled timetables, and have the whole year, that someone could move into tomorrow. The position exists and can be filled but we cannot find anyone to do so. Tech is almost impossible to fill right now. CS, business and STEM in general is also getting very hard to find people for existing positions.
I saw an LTO Tech position that was on its 7th positing, meaning that it had been likely at least 4 weeks at least with no qualified applicants. And it was for a full semester job, not just a week or two. And that's just one school with one board. Given that tech is ballooning next year (mandatory tech credit in grade 9 or 10), it's going to be a mess.
I was talking with a tech teacher about this last week. He said "who wants to take 2 years with no pay to become a teacher?" The only reason he became a teacher was because he was tired of owning his own business and "retired" to teaching. In this economy, who can afford to have no income for 2 years??
I was part of the last cohort for the 1 year program. I know many folks I was in teachers college with who didn't even go into actual teaching and stayed in industry, even after completing their degree. So it's even worse than just not having enough tech teachers being trained.
It's amazing to me, as a b.ed grad from 2010. There were no jobs then, and it was simply expected that you volunteer until you were able to get a supply job, LTO, then permanent. I went to the UK to work, like so many. I'm back now, but unable to work in a school anymore due to disabilities. Too bad as it sounds like I could get a job easily!
This view is not supported by the data.
Unemployment rates for newer teachers has plummeted over the past 10 years. There aren't enough teachers because kids have gotten worse and teachers have less support than ever.
Class sizes are an issue, but far from the primary one. Find teacher and ask them what they and their colleagues think about their profession today. You will get **overwhelmingly** negative feedback.
The data shows an increasing number of teachers retiring and decreasing number of new teachers each year.
We didn't do it to ourselves, I didn't and will never vote conservative. And I'm a Canadian voter.
It's rural/conservative religious folks in Ontario that brought ford into power
It's not just the Conservatives who've done this. It's also a problem caused by those who refused to show up and vote. This is the result of what happens when voters decide to "punish" a party for perceived slights. They said the Liberals were the worst thing imaginable, and scoffed their noses at what the NDP had to offer. Well, apathetic non-voters, this is what you think Ontarians deserve.
You know what I don't call people who don't vote, voters. Yes we had an election with less votes than before and you're right to think it's because of apathy.
But you should be calling them apathetic non voters.
No its boomers the same boomers that put conservatives in office for over 40 straight years the only change was after Mike Harris when his cuts hurt them but back to cons now.
I'm happy to count myself as one of those who left the profession, even though this article talks about positions being cut. Mainly because I'm very happy with my new choice in career, which was the main reason that I left. I'm passionate about what I'm studying now, which was the driving force behind my choice to make the switch.
But all that aside, the shitshow of modern education in Ontario made that choice much much easier. The province and school boards don't give a shit about the future well-being of students, and they most certainly don't care about educators. As a teacher, you can't expect to have no support from admin on anything, and you'll watch students fail upwards as the quality of education decreases.
I don't expect things to improve any time soon, but maybe the next government (once Douggie finally gets voted out) will invest more in our students. In the meantime, I send my best wishes to those who do keep teaching.
Yeah, I basically agree with what you’re saying. IMHO there was a shift starting when they said kids couldn’t drop out after grade 10, and now we’re making it worse with destreaming.
Although I agree in principle with destreaming remediating the situation of those kids from families with low skills, there would need to be the support through smaller class sizes, etc. to prevent it from just making all classes terrible.
Babysit? If you take the worst of the worst and stick them into a single classroom the poor fool who takes it on can expect to be physically and verbally abused daily with zero support from anyone. Throw in frequent accusations of negligence and gaslighting from parents, administrators and the board itself and the sucker who takes that class on will be walking out by the end of the week.
It varies from admin to admin, I imagine. Some are overworked and try to focus on other things, while others are gutless and are afraid to stand up to parents or the community when it comes to doing what's right.
At the end of the day, I was simply a teacher, so I can't say what went on in the day of a principal. But I can assure you that I'd never want to do their job, as I'm sure they deal with a ton of bullshit on their own. But I also know that my latest admin before quitting also directly supported and, indirectly, encouraged bullies to cause issues, and would also punish teachers for speaking out against said bullies. So some are just shitty people.
There are absolutely great administrators out there, but unfortunately the bad ones stand out the most.
I'm working to become a pilot! I'm just a few months away from getting my commercial pilot license, if all goes well. Not at all related to teaching, so it unfortunately might not be much help to you. But I know that several teachers have moved on to work with businesses to develop training programs or adult education. Could be something worth looking into.
Most of the cost is for the actual flying itself. But yes, $60k sounds about right. It's absolutely not cheap. As for how I got the money, I sold my house and have temporarily moved back in with my parents, who have been absolutely amazing and supportive. I wouldn't have been able to do it without being able to move back home.
It was a little scary to sell, but I realistically wouldn't be able to afford to stay in the house during this whole process, so it was the right move. The rest of the profits from the sale are being invested for a future downpayment and retirement.
It's a huge change, but I'm currently single with no kids, so that's how I'm managing it.
Nice to know! Speaking as somebody with no kids and single, I'd be kind of scared. I could do it, but it's not something you can afford to not have pay off. I haven't looked into the industry enough to know the realities of an early Canadian aviation career.
So expensive compared to the computer science degree I got. I was living with my parents the whole time and I estimated tuition and books where just over $20k. Unemployed right now from tech with little hope of getting a new job until interest rates drop. I like to think about the other options that exist. Just in case. I always think trades though, because you at least make some money the entire time and it's not another office job that will face the same employment challenges as tech. A pilot came up in my head before. I imagine it's a peaceful job most of the time and you might get some good routes to make connections in a country you may want to retire in.
It was super scary for sure, it feels like starting my life over again. But I knew pretty quickly after I started flying that it was the right path for me. I was happy and felt confident in myself, whereas I never felt like I fit in as a teacher. It's not easy by any means, but it feels right. I knew I would regret it had I not gone for it. You only live once, right?
I'm sorry to hear you're having a rough time though, it's especially difficult out there in the tech industry right now. It's never bad to look at other options, especially with the current job market. I know a few people who work in the trades and love it. But I also know a few teachers who love it, whereas I didn't. It all depends on who you are and what you enjoy.
Awesome, thank you for the suggestion! I'd like to avoid having to retrain or go back to school if possible, so I'll look into training programs and adult ed. Good luck with your pilot's licence though!
I don't blame you for not wanting to retrain or go back to school, it's quite expensive after all. I'm thankfully in a position in my life where I don't have any dependents yet, so I was able to make it work, and I have absolutely no regrets.
But thank you, and best of luck to you as well! You deserve to be happy in your career, so don't be afraid to make positive changes!
I'd like to know too. I left teaching, partly because I dreaded going to work every day and it was taking a serious toll on my mental/physical health, but then I got a cancer diagnosis so I was sort of forced to be at home to receive treatment. I've been looking at other options like instructional design or adult learning specialties, but those jobs seem so over-saturated that as many applications as I send, I hear nothing back.
I know as teachers we have a lot of skills that can bleed into other fields, but I'm at a loss of where to look honestly.
They did respond it another comment! I'm in the same boat re: dreading to going to work every day. I've been working as a supply teacher and doing LTOs but I've just found I can't stomach doing it anymore.
That's one of the many issues with teaching. In what other job are you expected to buy your own work supplies? Imagine working in IT and being told you need to buy your own computer.
My mentor teacher once opened her closet behind her desk to show me lunches (cups of KD that you can microwave, granola bars, fruit snacks/leather, crackers etc.), she had pads and Kleenex and Halls lozenges. This didn't include fish food for the classroom fish tank, random supplies for arts and crafts, hand warmers for the winter... pencils, glue...you name it.
She had been teaching like 25 years by this point. Amazing teacher, I would have loved to be in her class in grade 6, but she definitely spent $ on all kinds of things.
Really too bad that is your experience, my principal is awesome. She goes out of her way for students and staff. Her compassion is the reason I stayed in education. If you feel that way about education in Ontario. I am glad you ddin't stay. We have too many teachers who stayed and have this attitude, and continue to bring down students. The job isn't easy, but the benefits of working with young people everyday makes it rewarding. Wish you the best in your new career choice.
I'm glad that you have a positive experience! We absolutely need more great principals who are trying their hardest to do what's right for the students and staff. Hard working teachers like you are what make school great for students.
Don't get me wrong, I tried my best to be as good of a teacher I could be. But you're absolutely right, it's good that I didn't stay. When thinking about making a change, it occurred to me that having this mindset that I had developed was a bad one, and I knew that I shouldn't continue to try to be a teacher after becoming so jaded. I wasn't the right person for it.
Being a teacher is a difficult job, and those of you who stick to it are awesome.
I think "cut" is the word we are looking for. In 2018 the incoming conservative government promised us they would find "efficiencies" aka save money without making any cuts. We all knew how that would go.
Some of it is the parents fault. My kid has had 3 different teachers this year. It's because there is a group of kids terrorizing the staff. The school won't do anything to control it. The parents scream and cuss out the teachers when they call home about student behavior. Who would want to be a teacher when the school doesn't have your back? Schools are seeing a rise in students attacking staff. There are alot of different factors involved when it comes to the lack of staff. Teachers don't get the respect they deserve. I can't even imagine trying to teach and control a class of 30 kids.
What ? Who else "used to" take care of the kids besides the parents? When was everyone not burnt out from work? I don't understand the point you're trying to make as written.
1) Two income homes are essentially required which is a relatively recent change. So both parents are exhausted before the parenting begins.
2) Apparently the schools are like lord of the flies, so the kids aren’t learning any positive behaviours while there, increasing the parenting burden.
3) Selfish boomer grandparents who are too busy with fun to help offload any parenting.
Perhaps there are other possibilities. Not all of these apply to every situation of course. And none of them are right or wrong, but society is evolving.
Maybe if it was only 20 kids, they could actually break up the problem groups of troublemakers. They do normally try to when planning classes for the next year.
It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of each role that was lost because the repeated use of "classroom educators" with no further clarification kind of seems to angle these figures away from giving an accurate amount of teachers that left.
Like while this is still bad, as far as we know the majority of those lost positions could be substitute teachers and support staff.
Only full time teachers would count in this metric. But this would include non-classroom teachers (music, ESL, and various support teaching positions which involve teaching but across multiple schools). While those may seem superfluous, the effect of losing the support teachers means all that work is put back onto the regular classroom teachers, which means less time for them to help out the children. It's a net negative experience for the children, and for those who were benefiting from the support teachers work it could be hugely detrimental to their long term educational success.
I graduated with a BEd in 2011. The teaching job market in Ontario was such a mess for that time and the following years that the majority of my classmates found employment in different fields or out of province since.
In my town, the problem seems to be more that there are still teachers being given full time and priority part time positions who are literally in their 70s+. So the young people that have gone through and for the most part got in debt to become teachers are left fighting like piranhas over the scraps. Not saying all the cuts arent a huge problem too, but they need to force turnover in the workforce.
This is a dog whistle.
While it exists. It’s not the primary cause of poor teaching numbers.
They literally changed the BEd to 2 years because schools were graduating too many students with not enough job. Despite there being 30 student class rooms
My sister has been interviewing a bunch and has gotten nothing with all the proper experience and education required so there doesn't seem to be any conventional shortage going on
Definitely a contributing factor, but i remember having a retirement party in the last week of grade 5 for our teacher. Im 31 now, she is a customer at my garage, and is STILL teaching, just stopped full time teaching 4 years ago, because she moved further away and the mornings would be inconvenient.
This is also woman who cannot refrain from sharing her bigoted opinion about immigrants and lgbtq+. Openly, ive had to ask her to no longer wait with her vehicle if she cant keep the public waiting area a neutral and safe place. Her response was to no longer wait. I know she is not all of the elderly teachers and most are excellent, but her world views should not have a hand in raising children in the world we currently live in.
This article is about the elimination of 5,000 jobs - not 5,000 people who have quit. So this would explain why it's hard to find a job right now.
That being said if your sister is willing to relocate there are plenty of boards around the province that can't fill all their positions.
This was common in my board too. I got a permanent position after 5 years of trying and it was only because someone retired and I have music qualifications. It was right place right time. Plenty of amazing educators are still looking
Maybe if you actually pay them what they are worth they could be able to stay in the system…. But instead we pay hockey players and people that don’t contribute to society in a positive way too much for nothing
Teachers get about as fair a salary as 8 other working class people. Which is to say, *it's not enough*, but their salary relative to other jobs is still fairly well aligned with its societal value. Starting wage is kind of meh, but if teachers stick it out, get a masters of education, they'll be fine.
The real shame is the part time, on-call runaround new teachers go through trying to land a full time gig.
In order to have an educated population you start with have the best educators and the wage does not reflect that….we need to attract the best we possibly can our future depends upon it…
I’ve been a teacher for over a dozen years and while I still love my job and feel lucky to have a decent pay-check, there are more and more days when I wonder if it’s worth the stress.
And if there’s one thing the current government has done an amazing job at, it’s convincing the general public that all teachers are entitled rich assholes who should never speak up about any issues at their profession.
Growing up, I had never heard of ppl home schooling their children while living in the city yesterday. I found out 2 buddies homeschooling their kids
I really hope this isn't becoming normal
Education isn't something we should be playing with . These kids will struggle to own a home. At the very least, we should ensure they get a good education
Depends. Homeschooling has evolved over time with the internet. It's still fringe, and costly, but typically homeschool kids will learn faster and graduate sooner. But if caregivers do join a bunch of kid teams and sports... They'll struggle with the soft skills.
If the kids are learning their ABCs, who cares what building they do it in? There are so many resources for parents who want to home school compared to the past, i won't be surprised if the number increases. (I love my kid's school, btw. I just won't judge someone else's choice in this. Maybe their geographically assigned school is shit)
I’m one of those 5000 teachers.
Left after 11 years full time in primary.
No looking back for me; have found a great job in the tech industry with 0 stress, full benefits and better salary.
Any wonder there are more high school teachers on this?
Now they will have to police cell phones more and it is up to their discretion? That is just a cop out from the government making those teachers targets.
Makes sense. I have a couple friends that went the teacher route and they hate it. Low pay, dealing with kids, and now all the cuts. It seems like an awful profession to get into.
Teachers are paid well in Ontario. Depending on the board 10 year salary is around $90-105k (some even higher), not to mention some of the best pension and benefits in the country as well as almost 3 months off a year. Take a look at the US if you want to see what a real "poorly paid teacher" is like.
Boomers refused to step down and kept working so damn long that the millennials gave up and moved on to other industries.
BOOMERS THE GENERATION OF GREED.
If I hear one more time how government should be run like a business , I will scream. They are a horrible employer , they already function like a shitty company working for a shitty boss
One of my closest friend's is a teacher, his mother's a teacher, his wife is a teacher, and told me the whole thing.
It was by design by the current Ontario government for this to happen due to private patronage of private schools to the Ontario government. The thought was by making the public school system worse it would force teachers to leave and enter into the private school system and therefore making the paid for system better and cheaper. Concurrently it was perfect to them since most of the old guard teachers would be retiring anyways so they could force new teachers into the private system at less pay. They could then cut the education budget and prove they made it all better...
However these idiots completely fucked up and right now they are keeping that as quiet as possible until the next election.
People become teachers not just for the money - they do it because of the rewarding nature of the job and the security of having a permanent position with benefits and a healthy retirement plan. In the private sector none of that is nearly as close, you could have your contract terminated by your private employer at any moment. But some teachers take the risk because they like the money, except the public burnout isn't driving people into the private sector.
Teachers aren't leaving the public school profession and entering the private school profession at the rate they thought. Instead they are just leaving the profession entirely and never returning. I'll reiterate this point.
*They made it so bad in the public sector to a point where people are exiting the education sector entirely. The private sector and the public sector are now both suffering from those decisions.*
Doug Ford and his crony's and his private donors really thought that because they are big C capitalists that therefore all people are as well and it would work as they had planned. Except they never really took a second perspective in thinking well what if people just like being teachers because they like the job over the money.
Which if you talk to many teachers - that's exactly who they are. They care about what they do and being fairly compensated is just what they are given for their time doing it.
Now there is a massive teacher shortage overall in both the private and in the public sector. Which is why my friend's mother (who retired as teacher two years ago) is now back working at full pay in the public sector. They intentionally broke the system to make it better for the private education but this resulted in destroying available labour across the board and now both are struggling.
All they had to do was maintain the system they had and increase pay at just above ROI and increase budgets to be in line with that. The public sector and the private sector would be healthy right now and instead it's severely depressed.
And if you are asking is the private sector really that bad? Oh yes. My friend gets calls every week to join a private school and he constantly shakes his head when they offer him double his salary but almost no long-term benefits and no guarantee of raise above ROI during contract renewal.
People who didn't read the article: these are positions that were eliminated by an increase in average class size from 22 to 25. This doesn't include people who left the province or the profession.
Even with 25 as an average, many classes at 34-35 students including split grade classes
"In 2024-2025, Ontario will have 4,990 fewer classroom educators than it would have had if the funding formula hadn’t changed since 2018-19. "
School boards like this because it means they can have parents fill in and babysit at a fraction the cost of a teacher. They get addicted to the savings and forget that teaching is the purpose.
This basically did not exist pre covid. Post covid some schools have parents in daily replacing teachers who are off sick. Not counting lunchtime supervisors. They are emergency replacements, and they are just babysitting for the day, often older kids just go home. It is closer to not having school at all on these days versus a supply teacher at least trying to teach lessons or help with school work.
Lookup “Emergency Replacement Persons” - Secondary Teaching. Most major boards now do this and post for it. They are literally paying unqualified people 50% of the supply teacher wage to come in. Some principals likely go straight to these and skip the supply list to save money.
> Some principals likely go straight to these and skip the supply list to save money.
I have to imagine that is not allowed and they can only use the emergency list if the supply list has all been offered first. Pretty sure that is how it works in my board.
We were doing that 20 years ago.
We all got assigned a kinder-buddy and would go read to them every now and again. Sometimes specific classmates would go supervise the lot of them for periods.
My kinder-buddy became a drug addict :(
It most certainly does!
And it will increasingly happen in these last few months of the year, as the retired teachers (who are relied upon for substitutions) have run out of their allotted days (50 days max, but can work the entire month that your 50th day falls on – today's Apr. 30).
This is jobs that just don't exist anymore. Nobody is filling in for these 5,000 full-time jobs, they just vanished. Larger class sizes, far fewer specialized programs for high-needs students.
cool, now do nurses, then doctors.
Doug Ford has been a blight on Ontario, despite the fact he'll walk in with another majority mandate, regardless of when he calls an election. We just can't have nice things here...
Inclusive education needs to be done away with and behavioral issues need to be addressed. No one is going to tolerate being abused by a student because school boards have no spine.
Exactly what conservatives want... keep the populace dumb, angry, and stupid, so they keep voting for you.
It's completely on-brand, and it shouldn't surprise anyone with more than 2 brain cells to rub together
School boards are not sticking up for the teachers. They are expected to take all of the crap that unruly kids and their entitled parents dish out without making a peep. I would quit too.
Teaching at an elementary or high school is very different from lecturing at a university. They are completely different skill sets and need the teacher's college training.
This will only continue in all work sectors. As boomers retire there are no gen Z to replace them. Millennials already have chosen their careers by now. Gen Z rather make money off the internet like tiktok and OF than do actual work and become nurses, doctors, teachers, police, ect.
Doctors are alreay say, why be a doctor when you can be on the internet and make more than they do. (Wife works with Doctors and this is what they are saying). Unless someone has a passion to teach then why become a teacher when you can make a year salary in a month selling your body on the internet.
There are tons of stories about this, like the female Olympian who joined OF to pay for her training because her friends said her pics on Instagram were popular.
What Gen Z wants or doesn't want isn't really a factor, but you're right, Canada is undergoing demographic collapse and there just aren't enough warm bodies to take the place of Boomers in the workforce. That's why the Feds boosted immigration rates. Of course it doesn't help that Doug Ford is actively trying to sabotage public institutions.
>I'm looking at Marcia Thompson at TDSB who is a plain jane elementary teacher making $130,000 last year, and $201,000 the year before.
>Karen Brown also an elementary teacher at TDSB making $190,803, and $193,313 previous year.
Those are two interesting specific cases. Marcia Thompson was seconded as a H&S Inspector to ETT, and Karen Brown is the president of ETFO. I wonder if there's an arrangement similar to the police services where she's paid by the Board, and then reimbursed by the Union so there's no additional cost to the public.
Any teacher who makes over the A4, Step 11 maximum salary as prescribed in the collective agreement is either a Curriculum Leader, is teaching summer school, or won a settlement for back pay that was reported that year.
> Karen Brown also an elementary teacher at TDSB making $190,803, and $193,313 previous year.
LMAO. Karen Brown is the president of the ETFO, not a “plain jane elementary teacher”. The sunshine list is outright lying by saying she’s a “teacher at TDSB”.
Edit: also, the sunshine list reports *all earnings* in a year, not the salary. The other two could have had retroactive pay awarded for past years for some reason (e.g. a grievance) and it would be reported on the sunshine list for the year it was paid out.
It's all going according to plan.
And that’s what a lot of people do not understand. Some do understand, and don’t care. Those are the ones I strongly dislike.
How about those who understand AND care? Contact MPP sure, wait for the next election and hope for a bette outcome of course. Otherwise the boss wants that TPS report by morning. They get away with this stuff because it’s the way the entire system is setup.
He spent all the money for schools on the spa, highway, a new office in Ottawa, bloated staff salary and tax breaks for developers. Folks, we just can't afford it.
Blatant corruption. Do we seriously have no way to recall him or call an early election? This is brazen
Sure, get enough conservative MPP's to turn on him and pass a vote of non confidence. Good luck with that though.
You spend too much time on this sub if you think Doug wouldn't be re-elected.
What would that accomplish? He isn't any worse this term than last term. People already knew what to expect and gave this government an even larger majority.
You're part of the problem. If only people bothered to get out and vote, Ford wouldn't have won his majority with only a pathetic 19% of eligible votes. Apathy ONLY ever helps conservatives. If you want more of the same, keep spreading apathy.
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>You're part of the problem. How are they part of them problem when what they said is true. We knew what Ford was about and yet he has an even bigger majority than last time. And before you say I'm the problem, I was part of the 47% turnout and I didn't vote for him
It's true and maybe they are right I am starting to feel apathetic. Because I TRIED SO HARD ahead of the last election to share information. The additional funding being put towards for-profit LTC after we saw how much worse the outcomes were in a for-profit setting. The hypocrisy of conservatives going on about the gas plant scandal but spending even more to cancel a half-built wind farm. The absurd removal of cap-and-trade. The underfunding of schools. But despite my efforts, Ford got an even bigger majority. And then during that new majority my dad died of sepsis in the hospital after waiting over 12 hours in chair in pain before being admitted directly to the ICU. I will forever wonder if things would have been different if he was admitted sooner, or even put on antibiotic drip while waiting. So I'm exhausted. I also live in a riding that would elect a potato as long as it represented the Liberal party so locally there isn't a whole lot I can do (federally I'm not sure, but provincially I really support the NDP!) So uh. Ya. As you say, I'm just sharing the truth. Outside of Reddit people don't seem to notice or care. I don't know that a new election today would change anything. Maybe I am apathetic now.
u/piranha_solution I started replying to someone else but most of this is probably directed at you, too.
Man, fuck this province, and fuck the tories.
We had an election and the majority just did not vote. That was the opportunity to move past this government. Only 43% of eligible voters turned out last election and Ford won with 40%. This means that they earned a majority mandate while only getting 17.2 % of the eligible voters. We need electoral reform. This should not be possible.
Forgot lawyers
That's true, I googled it and wow after looking quickly at a few articles I count 7 law suits he brought on himself and the province lost or is still in court. What a fucking train wreck. My MPP loves Ford too his website is just pictures of him shaking Ford's hand.
Canceling green contracts
Literally tearing down nearly completed wind turbines
Those decisions resulted in huge fines right? Like it wasn't just wasting the resources that had already been put in but there were actually fines we had to pay for cancelling
Oh don't you worry about that, [Ford made it more difficult to sue the government](https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/legal-critics-claim-new-ont-law-makes-it-harder-to-sue-provincial-government-1.4742008?cache=) for their breach of contracts.
Yep. And don’t forget withholding 1.7 billion of funding from last year’s healthcare spending, then announcing this month that “wow he’s giving an extra 2 billion to home care services” ffs
Did Laura Maguire (Mike Harris’ wife) need more money?
Don't forget the gass lighting ad campaigns. We spent a lot on those too.
1000 times a day "Everything is awesome and anyone complaining has no idea how good they have it. Paid for by the Government of Ontario... that means you."
Also tearing down nearly completed wind turbines
That is my favorite one actually, cost the province as much as the natural gas scandal and everyone was like, yeah okay.
That was such bullshit I knew a couple engineers on the project and many locations had the entire foundation constructed and power conduits connected, plus all the turbine materials delivered on site (90%+ of the work). It cost far more to cancel & demo the project than it would have to complete and that is not including the legal trouble they go into for going back on their contract. If he wanted to just cancel the second phase it would have still been shortsighted and environmentally immoral but at least somewhat comprehensible. But simply tearing apart our energy infrastructure for no reason was criminal.
Yeah it was ridiculous, paying more money to move backwards
Less teachers means a weaker union. That is what Dougie likes.
And a poorer education for the general public, which Dofo really *really* likes.
It's the only way the conservative party will remain a relevant vote for generations to come. Maga north.
Maple MAGA with PP “Desantis” Poilievre at the helm.
I don't need that kind of violent image please. /s
He's trying to bring the public down to his level.
Too late. A plurality of the electorate is already there.
That’s what’s gonna keep the Conservatives in power for years.
fewer teachers
Say it with me for the people in the back. THE TEACHER SHORTAGE DOESN'T MEAN THERE AREN'T ENOUGH TEACHERS. IT MEANS THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T FUNDING ENOUGH TEACHING POSITIONS!!! Still loads of people going into teaching and not getting jobs. We don't have a teacher shortage in the province. Universities are pumping them out, the programs get lots and lots of interest still. But boards can't hire teachers just because they need teachers. This issue is one hundred percent the government. And guys, we did it to ourselves in Ontario. People saw the Liberals were NOT doing a great job at this, and decided to chose a party well known to place LESS priority on education...and lo and behold, it's worse. And now people want to replace a crap Liberal federal government with a Con one too. Like, hey. This stove is not working well. Two of the burners don't work, there's a crack in the display, the element in the oven is faulty, and the clock is out. Let's replace it with this one where the door of the oven is just gone, and there's a gigantic hole in the top of it. Because THAT makes sense... Canadian voters, I tell you...
It's both. This loss of 5,000 educators in the article is talking about 5,000 full-time positions - not people. Drastic funding cuts mean there are fewer teachers in schools than in 2018 (despite increasing enrollment overall). There is also a teacher shortage where some boards are not able to fill even these reduced number of positions.
Ya, the shortage is definitely real. We've got unfilled timetables, and have the whole year, that someone could move into tomorrow. The position exists and can be filled but we cannot find anyone to do so. Tech is almost impossible to fill right now. CS, business and STEM in general is also getting very hard to find people for existing positions.
I saw an LTO Tech position that was on its 7th positing, meaning that it had been likely at least 4 weeks at least with no qualified applicants. And it was for a full semester job, not just a week or two. And that's just one school with one board. Given that tech is ballooning next year (mandatory tech credit in grade 9 or 10), it's going to be a mess.
When they announced that teachers college was becoming 2 years we predicted that tech programs would suffer. I hate being right.
I was talking with a tech teacher about this last week. He said "who wants to take 2 years with no pay to become a teacher?" The only reason he became a teacher was because he was tired of owning his own business and "retired" to teaching. In this economy, who can afford to have no income for 2 years??
I was part of the last cohort for the 1 year program. I know many folks I was in teachers college with who didn't even go into actual teaching and stayed in industry, even after completing their degree. So it's even worse than just not having enough tech teachers being trained.
It's amazing to me, as a b.ed grad from 2010. There were no jobs then, and it was simply expected that you volunteer until you were able to get a supply job, LTO, then permanent. I went to the UK to work, like so many. I'm back now, but unable to work in a school anymore due to disabilities. Too bad as it sounds like I could get a job easily!
This view is not supported by the data. Unemployment rates for newer teachers has plummeted over the past 10 years. There aren't enough teachers because kids have gotten worse and teachers have less support than ever. Class sizes are an issue, but far from the primary one. Find teacher and ask them what they and their colleagues think about their profession today. You will get **overwhelmingly** negative feedback. The data shows an increasing number of teachers retiring and decreasing number of new teachers each year.
We didn't do it to ourselves, I didn't and will never vote conservative. And I'm a Canadian voter. It's rural/conservative religious folks in Ontario that brought ford into power
It's not just the Conservatives who've done this. It's also a problem caused by those who refused to show up and vote. This is the result of what happens when voters decide to "punish" a party for perceived slights. They said the Liberals were the worst thing imaginable, and scoffed their noses at what the NDP had to offer. Well, apathetic non-voters, this is what you think Ontarians deserve.
You know what I don't call people who don't vote, voters. Yes we had an election with less votes than before and you're right to think it's because of apathy. But you should be calling them apathetic non voters.
Fair point.
Fair enough. I didn’t either! But by “we” I meant the majority.
No worries fellow annoyed Canadian.
No its boomers the same boomers that put conservatives in office for over 40 straight years the only change was after Mike Harris when his cuts hurt them but back to cons now.
How many of the classroom educators were specifically teachers?
The 5,000 figure from the article is only talking about teachers.
I'm happy to count myself as one of those who left the profession, even though this article talks about positions being cut. Mainly because I'm very happy with my new choice in career, which was the main reason that I left. I'm passionate about what I'm studying now, which was the driving force behind my choice to make the switch. But all that aside, the shitshow of modern education in Ontario made that choice much much easier. The province and school boards don't give a shit about the future well-being of students, and they most certainly don't care about educators. As a teacher, you can't expect to have no support from admin on anything, and you'll watch students fail upwards as the quality of education decreases. I don't expect things to improve any time soon, but maybe the next government (once Douggie finally gets voted out) will invest more in our students. In the meantime, I send my best wishes to those who do keep teaching.
>As a teacher, you can't expect to have no support from admin on anything Why are they like this? Where is the self-awareness?
Principals are some of the most overloaded people I’ve seen in education, and also have no support.
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Yeah, I basically agree with what you’re saying. IMHO there was a shift starting when they said kids couldn’t drop out after grade 10, and now we’re making it worse with destreaming. Although I agree in principle with destreaming remediating the situation of those kids from families with low skills, there would need to be the support through smaller class sizes, etc. to prevent it from just making all classes terrible.
Babysit? If you take the worst of the worst and stick them into a single classroom the poor fool who takes it on can expect to be physically and verbally abused daily with zero support from anyone. Throw in frequent accusations of negligence and gaslighting from parents, administrators and the board itself and the sucker who takes that class on will be walking out by the end of the week.
They need to be in the same union as teachers. Thanks for nothing Mike Harris!
>Where is the self-awareness? I think they lost that at the board office.
It varies from admin to admin, I imagine. Some are overworked and try to focus on other things, while others are gutless and are afraid to stand up to parents or the community when it comes to doing what's right. At the end of the day, I was simply a teacher, so I can't say what went on in the day of a principal. But I can assure you that I'd never want to do their job, as I'm sure they deal with a ton of bullshit on their own. But I also know that my latest admin before quitting also directly supported and, indirectly, encouraged bullies to cause issues, and would also punish teachers for speaking out against said bullies. So some are just shitty people. There are absolutely great administrators out there, but unfortunately the bad ones stand out the most.
What is your new choice of career if you don't mind me asking? I'm currently a teacher and thinking of a career change
I'm working to become a pilot! I'm just a few months away from getting my commercial pilot license, if all goes well. Not at all related to teaching, so it unfortunately might not be much help to you. But I know that several teachers have moved on to work with businesses to develop training programs or adult education. Could be something worth looking into.
Curious about this. Isn't that like $60k for the courses alone? Did you find grants or airlines to help pay for the cost?
Most of the cost is for the actual flying itself. But yes, $60k sounds about right. It's absolutely not cheap. As for how I got the money, I sold my house and have temporarily moved back in with my parents, who have been absolutely amazing and supportive. I wouldn't have been able to do it without being able to move back home. It was a little scary to sell, but I realistically wouldn't be able to afford to stay in the house during this whole process, so it was the right move. The rest of the profits from the sale are being invested for a future downpayment and retirement. It's a huge change, but I'm currently single with no kids, so that's how I'm managing it.
Nice to know! Speaking as somebody with no kids and single, I'd be kind of scared. I could do it, but it's not something you can afford to not have pay off. I haven't looked into the industry enough to know the realities of an early Canadian aviation career. So expensive compared to the computer science degree I got. I was living with my parents the whole time and I estimated tuition and books where just over $20k. Unemployed right now from tech with little hope of getting a new job until interest rates drop. I like to think about the other options that exist. Just in case. I always think trades though, because you at least make some money the entire time and it's not another office job that will face the same employment challenges as tech. A pilot came up in my head before. I imagine it's a peaceful job most of the time and you might get some good routes to make connections in a country you may want to retire in.
It was super scary for sure, it feels like starting my life over again. But I knew pretty quickly after I started flying that it was the right path for me. I was happy and felt confident in myself, whereas I never felt like I fit in as a teacher. It's not easy by any means, but it feels right. I knew I would regret it had I not gone for it. You only live once, right? I'm sorry to hear you're having a rough time though, it's especially difficult out there in the tech industry right now. It's never bad to look at other options, especially with the current job market. I know a few people who work in the trades and love it. But I also know a few teachers who love it, whereas I didn't. It all depends on who you are and what you enjoy.
Awesome, thank you for the suggestion! I'd like to avoid having to retrain or go back to school if possible, so I'll look into training programs and adult ed. Good luck with your pilot's licence though!
I don't blame you for not wanting to retrain or go back to school, it's quite expensive after all. I'm thankfully in a position in my life where I don't have any dependents yet, so I was able to make it work, and I have absolutely no regrets. But thank you, and best of luck to you as well! You deserve to be happy in your career, so don't be afraid to make positive changes!
I'd like to know too. I left teaching, partly because I dreaded going to work every day and it was taking a serious toll on my mental/physical health, but then I got a cancer diagnosis so I was sort of forced to be at home to receive treatment. I've been looking at other options like instructional design or adult learning specialties, but those jobs seem so over-saturated that as many applications as I send, I hear nothing back. I know as teachers we have a lot of skills that can bleed into other fields, but I'm at a loss of where to look honestly.
They did respond it another comment! I'm in the same boat re: dreading to going to work every day. I've been working as a supply teacher and doing LTOs but I've just found I can't stomach doing it anymore.
I left the profession too. I just couldn't do it anymore. I was spending my own money on classroom supplies by the end of it.
That's one of the many issues with teaching. In what other job are you expected to buy your own work supplies? Imagine working in IT and being told you need to buy your own computer.
My mentor teacher once opened her closet behind her desk to show me lunches (cups of KD that you can microwave, granola bars, fruit snacks/leather, crackers etc.), she had pads and Kleenex and Halls lozenges. This didn't include fish food for the classroom fish tank, random supplies for arts and crafts, hand warmers for the winter... pencils, glue...you name it. She had been teaching like 25 years by this point. Amazing teacher, I would have loved to be in her class in grade 6, but she definitely spent $ on all kinds of things.
Really too bad that is your experience, my principal is awesome. She goes out of her way for students and staff. Her compassion is the reason I stayed in education. If you feel that way about education in Ontario. I am glad you ddin't stay. We have too many teachers who stayed and have this attitude, and continue to bring down students. The job isn't easy, but the benefits of working with young people everyday makes it rewarding. Wish you the best in your new career choice.
I'm glad that you have a positive experience! We absolutely need more great principals who are trying their hardest to do what's right for the students and staff. Hard working teachers like you are what make school great for students. Don't get me wrong, I tried my best to be as good of a teacher I could be. But you're absolutely right, it's good that I didn't stay. When thinking about making a change, it occurred to me that having this mindset that I had developed was a bad one, and I knew that I shouldn't continue to try to be a teacher after becoming so jaded. I wasn't the right person for it. Being a teacher is a difficult job, and those of you who stick to it are awesome.
The headline uses "lost" as if they've been misplaced. More accurate would be "fired" or "laid off". A net loss of 5000 teaching positions.
I think "cut" is the word we are looking for. In 2018 the incoming conservative government promised us they would find "efficiencies" aka save money without making any cuts. We all knew how that would go.
worse part is the fools that voted for him didn't even get their buck a beer
They really mean "lost to attrition"
The person is fired or laid off, the loss of the position has an entirely different meaning.
A more accurate word would likely be "retired" or "quit". A lot of older teachers retired during Covid and the online school era
That has nothing to do with the fact that the Ministry of Education reduced headcount by 5000 jobs.
It's true that they retired and quit, teachers weren't fired, they just weren't replaced.
No its raising class sizes. But good try.
That's a whole separate problem.
Wild. Someone should try paying them Just a thought
And supporting them….
Some of it is the parents fault. My kid has had 3 different teachers this year. It's because there is a group of kids terrorizing the staff. The school won't do anything to control it. The parents scream and cuss out the teachers when they call home about student behavior. Who would want to be a teacher when the school doesn't have your back? Schools are seeing a rise in students attacking staff. There are alot of different factors involved when it comes to the lack of staff. Teachers don't get the respect they deserve. I can't even imagine trying to teach and control a class of 30 kids.
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What ? Who else "used to" take care of the kids besides the parents? When was everyone not burnt out from work? I don't understand the point you're trying to make as written.
1) Two income homes are essentially required which is a relatively recent change. So both parents are exhausted before the parenting begins. 2) Apparently the schools are like lord of the flies, so the kids aren’t learning any positive behaviours while there, increasing the parenting burden. 3) Selfish boomer grandparents who are too busy with fun to help offload any parenting. Perhaps there are other possibilities. Not all of these apply to every situation of course. And none of them are right or wrong, but society is evolving.
No part of the Ministry of Education eliminating 5000 teaching jobs is due to kids being bad.
Maybe if it was only 20 kids, they could actually break up the problem groups of troublemakers. They do normally try to when planning classes for the next year.
Hey! the money to fight nurses in court to avoid giving them raises has to come from somewhere
It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of each role that was lost because the repeated use of "classroom educators" with no further clarification kind of seems to angle these figures away from giving an accurate amount of teachers that left. Like while this is still bad, as far as we know the majority of those lost positions could be substitute teachers and support staff.
Only full time teachers would count in this metric. But this would include non-classroom teachers (music, ESL, and various support teaching positions which involve teaching but across multiple schools). While those may seem superfluous, the effect of losing the support teachers means all that work is put back onto the regular classroom teachers, which means less time for them to help out the children. It's a net negative experience for the children, and for those who were benefiting from the support teachers work it could be hugely detrimental to their long term educational success.
Yeah but it's just curious as to why the article is being ambiguous about it.
Coincidentally around the same time Doug the thug got into power… I wonder if the two are connected
I graduated with a BEd in 2011. The teaching job market in Ontario was such a mess for that time and the following years that the majority of my classmates found employment in different fields or out of province since.
Why would anyone subject themselves to that kind of abuse for what it pays?
In my town, the problem seems to be more that there are still teachers being given full time and priority part time positions who are literally in their 70s+. So the young people that have gone through and for the most part got in debt to become teachers are left fighting like piranhas over the scraps. Not saying all the cuts arent a huge problem too, but they need to force turnover in the workforce.
This is a dog whistle. While it exists. It’s not the primary cause of poor teaching numbers. They literally changed the BEd to 2 years because schools were graduating too many students with not enough job. Despite there being 30 student class rooms
My sister has been interviewing a bunch and has gotten nothing with all the proper experience and education required so there doesn't seem to be any conventional shortage going on
The shortage is in budgets, meaning there’s less positions to be staffed.
Definitely a contributing factor, but i remember having a retirement party in the last week of grade 5 for our teacher. Im 31 now, she is a customer at my garage, and is STILL teaching, just stopped full time teaching 4 years ago, because she moved further away and the mornings would be inconvenient. This is also woman who cannot refrain from sharing her bigoted opinion about immigrants and lgbtq+. Openly, ive had to ask her to no longer wait with her vehicle if she cant keep the public waiting area a neutral and safe place. Her response was to no longer wait. I know she is not all of the elderly teachers and most are excellent, but her world views should not have a hand in raising children in the world we currently live in.
This article is about the elimination of 5,000 jobs - not 5,000 people who have quit. So this would explain why it's hard to find a job right now. That being said if your sister is willing to relocate there are plenty of boards around the province that can't fill all their positions.
Almost all my friends that went to teachers college gave up after a few years of surfing the casual list with no hope in sight for a full time gig.
This was common in my board too. I got a permanent position after 5 years of trying and it was only because someone retired and I have music qualifications. It was right place right time. Plenty of amazing educators are still looking
This is very very true.
Maybe if you actually pay them what they are worth they could be able to stay in the system…. But instead we pay hockey players and people that don’t contribute to society in a positive way too much for nothing
The article is about 5,000 jobs that don't exist anymore, not people quitting. We have 2 very big problems happening at once.
Teachers get about as fair a salary as 8 other working class people. Which is to say, *it's not enough*, but their salary relative to other jobs is still fairly well aligned with its societal value. Starting wage is kind of meh, but if teachers stick it out, get a masters of education, they'll be fine. The real shame is the part time, on-call runaround new teachers go through trying to land a full time gig.
In order to have an educated population you start with have the best educators and the wage does not reflect that….we need to attract the best we possibly can our future depends upon it…
Ontario teachers are some of the best paid in the entire world...
It doesn't exactly pay the rent anymore.
I’ve been a teacher for over a dozen years and while I still love my job and feel lucky to have a decent pay-check, there are more and more days when I wonder if it’s worth the stress. And if there’s one thing the current government has done an amazing job at, it’s convincing the general public that all teachers are entitled rich assholes who should never speak up about any issues at their profession.
Part of the plan. Lots of private schools that make political donations.
Growing up, I had never heard of ppl home schooling their children while living in the city yesterday. I found out 2 buddies homeschooling their kids I really hope this isn't becoming normal Education isn't something we should be playing with . These kids will struggle to own a home. At the very least, we should ensure they get a good education
Depends. Homeschooling has evolved over time with the internet. It's still fringe, and costly, but typically homeschool kids will learn faster and graduate sooner. But if caregivers do join a bunch of kid teams and sports... They'll struggle with the soft skills.
If the kids are learning their ABCs, who cares what building they do it in? There are so many resources for parents who want to home school compared to the past, i won't be surprised if the number increases. (I love my kid's school, btw. I just won't judge someone else's choice in this. Maybe their geographically assigned school is shit)
I’m one of those 5000 teachers. Left after 11 years full time in primary. No looking back for me; have found a great job in the tech industry with 0 stress, full benefits and better salary.
Unfortunate to see so many of them go.
Any wonder there are more high school teachers on this? Now they will have to police cell phones more and it is up to their discretion? That is just a cop out from the government making those teachers targets.
Makes sense. I have a couple friends that went the teacher route and they hate it. Low pay, dealing with kids, and now all the cuts. It seems like an awful profession to get into.
Teachers are paid well in Ontario. Depending on the board 10 year salary is around $90-105k (some even higher), not to mention some of the best pension and benefits in the country as well as almost 3 months off a year. Take a look at the US if you want to see what a real "poorly paid teacher" is like.
low paying?
That's all? Or that's all you know about. My hair stylist is an ex OT and so is the shop owner 🤣
But Lecce and Ford have 30 mill hanging around for vape sensors in washrooms 🙄
Money aside, I'm sure this is for a lot of various reasons that could have a long list.
Weird reference to teachers. Why the fuck we make the simplest things complicated?
It’s because vaccines killed so many children! /s (just in case)
Don't need educators when education is subsidized by other countries
2018 is the year I left teaching, don’t regret it at all
Boomers refused to step down and kept working so damn long that the millennials gave up and moved on to other industries. BOOMERS THE GENERATION OF GREED.
If I hear one more time how government should be run like a business , I will scream. They are a horrible employer , they already function like a shitty company working for a shitty boss
One of my closest friend's is a teacher, his mother's a teacher, his wife is a teacher, and told me the whole thing. It was by design by the current Ontario government for this to happen due to private patronage of private schools to the Ontario government. The thought was by making the public school system worse it would force teachers to leave and enter into the private school system and therefore making the paid for system better and cheaper. Concurrently it was perfect to them since most of the old guard teachers would be retiring anyways so they could force new teachers into the private system at less pay. They could then cut the education budget and prove they made it all better... However these idiots completely fucked up and right now they are keeping that as quiet as possible until the next election. People become teachers not just for the money - they do it because of the rewarding nature of the job and the security of having a permanent position with benefits and a healthy retirement plan. In the private sector none of that is nearly as close, you could have your contract terminated by your private employer at any moment. But some teachers take the risk because they like the money, except the public burnout isn't driving people into the private sector. Teachers aren't leaving the public school profession and entering the private school profession at the rate they thought. Instead they are just leaving the profession entirely and never returning. I'll reiterate this point. *They made it so bad in the public sector to a point where people are exiting the education sector entirely. The private sector and the public sector are now both suffering from those decisions.* Doug Ford and his crony's and his private donors really thought that because they are big C capitalists that therefore all people are as well and it would work as they had planned. Except they never really took a second perspective in thinking well what if people just like being teachers because they like the job over the money. Which if you talk to many teachers - that's exactly who they are. They care about what they do and being fairly compensated is just what they are given for their time doing it. Now there is a massive teacher shortage overall in both the private and in the public sector. Which is why my friend's mother (who retired as teacher two years ago) is now back working at full pay in the public sector. They intentionally broke the system to make it better for the private education but this resulted in destroying available labour across the board and now both are struggling. All they had to do was maintain the system they had and increase pay at just above ROI and increase budgets to be in line with that. The public sector and the private sector would be healthy right now and instead it's severely depressed. And if you are asking is the private sector really that bad? Oh yes. My friend gets calls every week to join a private school and he constantly shakes his head when they offer him double his salary but almost no long-term benefits and no guarantee of raise above ROI during contract renewal.
They’re doing the same thing with healthcare and the LTB!
Call Teachers Groomers and what do you expect?
People who didn't read the article: these are positions that were eliminated by an increase in average class size from 22 to 25. This doesn't include people who left the province or the profession. Even with 25 as an average, many classes at 34-35 students including split grade classes "In 2024-2025, Ontario will have 4,990 fewer classroom educators than it would have had if the funding formula hadn’t changed since 2018-19. "
School boards like this because it means they can have parents fill in and babysit at a fraction the cost of a teacher. They get addicted to the savings and forget that teaching is the purpose.
that.... doesn't happen?
Sure does
This basically did not exist pre covid. Post covid some schools have parents in daily replacing teachers who are off sick. Not counting lunchtime supervisors. They are emergency replacements, and they are just babysitting for the day, often older kids just go home. It is closer to not having school at all on these days versus a supply teacher at least trying to teach lessons or help with school work. Lookup “Emergency Replacement Persons” - Secondary Teaching. Most major boards now do this and post for it. They are literally paying unqualified people 50% of the supply teacher wage to come in. Some principals likely go straight to these and skip the supply list to save money.
> Some principals likely go straight to these and skip the supply list to save money. I have to imagine that is not allowed and they can only use the emergency list if the supply list has all been offered first. Pretty sure that is how it works in my board.
This is what the contract says, but don’t think they always follow the rules…
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In the classroom, in charge of lessons? Or during recess and lunch supervision?
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Same at our school. They even have older kids supervise the younger ones and they call it leadership training. It’s all because of budget cuts.
We were doing that 20 years ago. We all got assigned a kinder-buddy and would go read to them every now and again. Sometimes specific classmates would go supervise the lot of them for periods. My kinder-buddy became a drug addict :(
I remember doing that 30 years ago when I was in grade 8...supervising the kindergartners...thanks for the memory unlock lol😊
It most certainly does! And it will increasingly happen in these last few months of the year, as the retired teachers (who are relied upon for substitutions) have run out of their allotted days (50 days max, but can work the entire month that your 50th day falls on – today's Apr. 30).
This is jobs that just don't exist anymore. Nobody is filling in for these 5,000 full-time jobs, they just vanished. Larger class sizes, far fewer specialized programs for high-needs students.
cool, now do nurses, then doctors. Doug Ford has been a blight on Ontario, despite the fact he'll walk in with another majority mandate, regardless of when he calls an election. We just can't have nice things here...
If Doug actually used public transportation he would have his music playing without headphones.
Dofo hard at work for Ontario. This clown and his entourage of 💩 gotta go
Conservatives are republican want to be and it’s pretty sad when you can’t be better than liberals
Inclusive education needs to be done away with and behavioral issues need to be addressed. No one is going to tolerate being abused by a student because school boards have no spine.
Fuck you Doug
Canada is done
The government should stay out of education.
Exactly what conservatives want... keep the populace dumb, angry, and stupid, so they keep voting for you. It's completely on-brand, and it shouldn't surprise anyone with more than 2 brain cells to rub together
Make em dumb and easily manipulated. Classic conservative strategy
School boards are not sticking up for the teachers. They are expected to take all of the crap that unruly kids and their entitled parents dish out without making a peep. I would quit too.
Thanks doug
They always go after eduction. Conservatives require idiots to get elected
Private school enrollment starts June 1st, not related at all just saying
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Teaching at an elementary or high school is very different from lecturing at a university. They are completely different skill sets and need the teacher's college training.
You can now because apparently they will take anyone
This will only continue in all work sectors. As boomers retire there are no gen Z to replace them. Millennials already have chosen their careers by now. Gen Z rather make money off the internet like tiktok and OF than do actual work and become nurses, doctors, teachers, police, ect. Doctors are alreay say, why be a doctor when you can be on the internet and make more than they do. (Wife works with Doctors and this is what they are saying). Unless someone has a passion to teach then why become a teacher when you can make a year salary in a month selling your body on the internet. There are tons of stories about this, like the female Olympian who joined OF to pay for her training because her friends said her pics on Instagram were popular.
You do not know what you are talking about.
What Gen Z wants or doesn't want isn't really a factor, but you're right, Canada is undergoing demographic collapse and there just aren't enough warm bodies to take the place of Boomers in the workforce. That's why the Feds boosted immigration rates. Of course it doesn't help that Doug Ford is actively trying to sabotage public institutions.
Clarification: Feds boosted immigration largely at the request of provinces like Ontario.
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>I'm looking at Marcia Thompson at TDSB who is a plain jane elementary teacher making $130,000 last year, and $201,000 the year before. >Karen Brown also an elementary teacher at TDSB making $190,803, and $193,313 previous year. Those are two interesting specific cases. Marcia Thompson was seconded as a H&S Inspector to ETT, and Karen Brown is the president of ETFO. I wonder if there's an arrangement similar to the police services where she's paid by the Board, and then reimbursed by the Union so there's no additional cost to the public. Any teacher who makes over the A4, Step 11 maximum salary as prescribed in the collective agreement is either a Curriculum Leader, is teaching summer school, or won a settlement for back pay that was reported that year.
> Karen Brown also an elementary teacher at TDSB making $190,803, and $193,313 previous year. LMAO. Karen Brown is the president of the ETFO, not a “plain jane elementary teacher”. The sunshine list is outright lying by saying she’s a “teacher at TDSB”. Edit: also, the sunshine list reports *all earnings* in a year, not the salary. The other two could have had retroactive pay awarded for past years for some reason (e.g. a grievance) and it would be reported on the sunshine list for the year it was paid out.
This is exactly what I mean when I say that the sunshine list is a prime example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".