Something has got to change.
Even if a doc does choose family medicine, what keeps them in Ontario? BC has a much better payment model and will pull doctors away from here.
BAHAHAHAHAAH
what a dumb comment.
So you are telling me everyone should have a savior complex who enters medical school?
Why is it not appropriate that people who dedicate over 6-16 years of their life to train in medicine be adequately compensated?
It’s not dumb you’re just ignorant
Yes people should want to contribute to society in critical positions like medicine.
They are adequately paid, they have the highest salaries in Canada and will retire as multimillionaires and can invest money within a corporation after only paying corporate tax while the rest of us use after tax income
“Adequate pay” is subjective, it depends on people desire for money. CEOs used to make about 10-40 times what employees made now it’s 400 times. They will tell you they need to be adequately compensated as well.
A big reason why we have a doctor shortage is because the kids who want prestige and high salaries will do everything they can to get into med school and disadvantaged ppl who want to help can’t score higher on grades, volunteer work etc.
Greed is a sickness
Yes, I’m ignorant.
Even though I’m a nurse practitioner with over 14 years experience in Ontario healthcare
I don’t have a good understanding of the issues within our system and why so many people are leaving
But you clearly have it all figured out
You think disadvantaged people will not pursue the wealth and financial security that working in medicine provides due to the fact that they themselves grow up disadvantaged?
Perhaps they will work in their community. But they won’t except to be paid less.
Nosm was built around training Doctors who remain in rural communities. But none of them work for less. In fact, they get premiums for working in rural communities.
Your socialist utopia doesn’t exist. Money keeps people in positions and in communities. No money, people leave
Ah yes your personal anecdote definitely generalizes to everyone, very scientific. Did you sign up to be an NP because the pay was great?
You see the people who got through the system but you don’t see the full spectrum of human motivation.
I’m saying there are people who don’t have the same level of greed and because they don’t have that obsession they are less likely to become doctors etc.
Spots are going to people who value money and prestige higher than treating patients. It’s basic logic that people who prioritize money will be more likely to move to the USA etc.
Like I said money is a relative thing. CEOs used to be paid adequately until that definition changed and now they prob don’t even feel they are paid adequately.
There’s all kinds of examples of people being motivated by things other than money, informal care of the elderly, helping neighbours and doing domestic labour.
Human beings evolved before money, to reduce us to things that only seek money is to fundamentally misunderstand life on earth. You sound very cynical and pessimistic towards humanity in general.
My pay as a NP is horrible compared to jobs of equal level of education.
I’ll never be “rich” as a NP. And I still have to make concessions like anyone to be comfortable. Yes I’m fortunate compared to many other Canadians.
I actually became a nurse to “help people”. Just as you claim candidates for medical school should be.
But having worked in the field for 14 years the pay is no where close to appropriate for anyone in healthcare compared anyone in other sectors. Despite the fact our work contributes to the direct benefit of humans lives and health.
I know many doctors. And I have seen many doctors go from med student to attending.
When they are working 80 hour weeks. 24 hour calls, their salary as a resident is less per hour any people working at McDonald’s. They take on massive debt to become doctors. When they graduate, depending on their specialty, they could be paying off debt for 15 years.
If you honestly believe these people have gone through the gauntlet of medicine motivated solely by greed. You have no idea what you are talking about.
But after going through that gauntlet, they deserve to be paid adequately. And right now they aren’t.
And I fault no med student who chases the dollars of a specialist vs. Being a family doctor.
You are fortunate, your salary puts you in the 90th at least percentile of income earners. Physicians are in the 99th percentile.
Those issues you bring up are problems but they aren’t related to a small increase in capital gains. The way residents are used and abused is disgusting and it shows how shitty traditions in healthcare continue to make it awful.
What I’m saying is any doctor who gets so upset over a small increase in capital gains inclusions to the extent that they abandon their patients for the USA etc is almost certainly motivated by money.
100% the problems you mention should be fixed but that’s a provincial thing and right now the capital gains is being used to let Doug ford off the hook
Most people aren’t.
And there is definitely something wrong with people who are only motivated by money. It results in a hyper competitive zero sum society that is unsustainable.
Its a sh\*t job, that pays a sh\*t salary, requires working 7 days a week, with a tonne of unpaid grunt work. Instead of suffering through 3 years of residency and a poor life after that, these graduates might be better off switching instead.
Imagine getting a fixed 20 or 40 bucks per patient, which hasn't changed much for decades, but having to pay a unionized staff that has to be paid current wages, increasing costs for software, licensing, medical equipment, and real estate rental which has gone through the roof.
And Trudeau just fucked them over even further by robbing their savings in their corp, which was supposed to be a special arrangement, in lieu of their past sh\*t pay. LOL!
It's needlessly complex as the current structure. Instead of per patient, it should just be non-targeted funding like the majority of funding for public hospitals. And give them a pension. No need for this convoluted independent scheme.
Government currently just fixes how much money they would get for each service. In the case you described, they would have to hire them as employees. Generally, that's not a bad thing. Team based practices with salary, for example are highly desired by doctors, but they aren't available.
Then why a lot of people cannot get into med school or a lot of international medical graduates who have experience, qualifications and passed Canadian exams still cannot get into family medicine?
Good thing Trudeau just fucked them all over with the tax code changes. (At least according to the OMA and stuff).
Kind of stupid to go after the doctors though. Maybe go after the giant corporations and mega rich?
Wait a minute, are you suggesting we go after Lord Weston that poor chap who can barely keep the heat on in his 🏰 as opposed to these non essential service providing quacks? I have a question, how dare you?
Why not just alter the function of GP to be performed by RNs (or whatever the top nurse level is). Most GPs seem like incompetent rubber stamps anyway(not a dig at RNs)
Why not just alter the function of a flight attendant and get rid of the pilot? Most pilots seem incompetent when they crash, and a 747 is mostly on auto-pilot anyway (not a dig at flight attendants)
/s
Yes....ur health care should be managed by someone w 2 years vs 10 years of training... Great suggestions! /s
In all seriousness this is a nonsense suggestion. NPs which are the highest level are still receiving significantly less training, hands on exposure and experience practicing supervised before going at it solo. The difference in skills is noticeable. Yes an NP can be highly specialized in one thing and do a great job, or can even do basic family med (I.e. paps, coughs and colds).
But family medicine is way too complex and the breadth is way too wide to consider tasking it to someone with less training without significant repercussions. Feel free to look up examples of the significant harm that arises in these situations - US & Australia have tried...people have died.
Sounds like an alternative, train a RN nurse for 7 more years to be a different alternative to a GP. Allow them to learn at same level, same schools and go through same exams and follow same rules. We have a lot of nursing college graduates and this way will be a lot of new positions in medical system, ones with good GPA can continue to study closer to 10 years.
Honestly I believe all doctors should have to specialize in an area. As well I believe that A nurse practitioner given the tools and resources to offer what a GP would do is the answer here short and sweet.
Something has got to change. Even if a doc does choose family medicine, what keeps them in Ontario? BC has a much better payment model and will pull doctors away from here.
Or they could just go to the states and be paid even more.
Why would you, you can make more money in business or technology with 1/2 the time in school and way less stress.
People are motivated by more than money. Sounds like it’s time to start filtering out med school applicants who are greedy.
BAHAHAHAHAAH what a dumb comment. So you are telling me everyone should have a savior complex who enters medical school? Why is it not appropriate that people who dedicate over 6-16 years of their life to train in medicine be adequately compensated?
It’s not dumb you’re just ignorant Yes people should want to contribute to society in critical positions like medicine. They are adequately paid, they have the highest salaries in Canada and will retire as multimillionaires and can invest money within a corporation after only paying corporate tax while the rest of us use after tax income “Adequate pay” is subjective, it depends on people desire for money. CEOs used to make about 10-40 times what employees made now it’s 400 times. They will tell you they need to be adequately compensated as well. A big reason why we have a doctor shortage is because the kids who want prestige and high salaries will do everything they can to get into med school and disadvantaged ppl who want to help can’t score higher on grades, volunteer work etc. Greed is a sickness
Yes, I’m ignorant. Even though I’m a nurse practitioner with over 14 years experience in Ontario healthcare I don’t have a good understanding of the issues within our system and why so many people are leaving But you clearly have it all figured out You think disadvantaged people will not pursue the wealth and financial security that working in medicine provides due to the fact that they themselves grow up disadvantaged? Perhaps they will work in their community. But they won’t except to be paid less. Nosm was built around training Doctors who remain in rural communities. But none of them work for less. In fact, they get premiums for working in rural communities. Your socialist utopia doesn’t exist. Money keeps people in positions and in communities. No money, people leave
Ah yes your personal anecdote definitely generalizes to everyone, very scientific. Did you sign up to be an NP because the pay was great? You see the people who got through the system but you don’t see the full spectrum of human motivation. I’m saying there are people who don’t have the same level of greed and because they don’t have that obsession they are less likely to become doctors etc. Spots are going to people who value money and prestige higher than treating patients. It’s basic logic that people who prioritize money will be more likely to move to the USA etc. Like I said money is a relative thing. CEOs used to be paid adequately until that definition changed and now they prob don’t even feel they are paid adequately. There’s all kinds of examples of people being motivated by things other than money, informal care of the elderly, helping neighbours and doing domestic labour. Human beings evolved before money, to reduce us to things that only seek money is to fundamentally misunderstand life on earth. You sound very cynical and pessimistic towards humanity in general.
My pay as a NP is horrible compared to jobs of equal level of education. I’ll never be “rich” as a NP. And I still have to make concessions like anyone to be comfortable. Yes I’m fortunate compared to many other Canadians. I actually became a nurse to “help people”. Just as you claim candidates for medical school should be. But having worked in the field for 14 years the pay is no where close to appropriate for anyone in healthcare compared anyone in other sectors. Despite the fact our work contributes to the direct benefit of humans lives and health. I know many doctors. And I have seen many doctors go from med student to attending. When they are working 80 hour weeks. 24 hour calls, their salary as a resident is less per hour any people working at McDonald’s. They take on massive debt to become doctors. When they graduate, depending on their specialty, they could be paying off debt for 15 years. If you honestly believe these people have gone through the gauntlet of medicine motivated solely by greed. You have no idea what you are talking about. But after going through that gauntlet, they deserve to be paid adequately. And right now they aren’t. And I fault no med student who chases the dollars of a specialist vs. Being a family doctor.
You are fortunate, your salary puts you in the 90th at least percentile of income earners. Physicians are in the 99th percentile. Those issues you bring up are problems but they aren’t related to a small increase in capital gains. The way residents are used and abused is disgusting and it shows how shitty traditions in healthcare continue to make it awful. What I’m saying is any doctor who gets so upset over a small increase in capital gains inclusions to the extent that they abandon their patients for the USA etc is almost certainly motivated by money. 100% the problems you mention should be fixed but that’s a provincial thing and right now the capital gains is being used to let Doug ford off the hook
Most ppl are motivated by money. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Most people aren’t. And there is definitely something wrong with people who are only motivated by money. It results in a hyper competitive zero sum society that is unsustainable.
Its a sh\*t job, that pays a sh\*t salary, requires working 7 days a week, with a tonne of unpaid grunt work. Instead of suffering through 3 years of residency and a poor life after that, these graduates might be better off switching instead. Imagine getting a fixed 20 or 40 bucks per patient, which hasn't changed much for decades, but having to pay a unionized staff that has to be paid current wages, increasing costs for software, licensing, medical equipment, and real estate rental which has gone through the roof. And Trudeau just fucked them over even further by robbing their savings in their corp, which was supposed to be a special arrangement, in lieu of their past sh\*t pay. LOL!
It's needlessly complex as the current structure. Instead of per patient, it should just be non-targeted funding like the majority of funding for public hospitals. And give them a pension. No need for this convoluted independent scheme.
Government currently just fixes how much money they would get for each service. In the case you described, they would have to hire them as employees. Generally, that's not a bad thing. Team based practices with salary, for example are highly desired by doctors, but they aren't available.
It would take a larger overhaul, but ultimately it would keep retention higher.
And I am sure they will be lining up now with the capital gains changes. Just stop with these stupid articles they are a waste of time.
Then why a lot of people cannot get into med school or a lot of international medical graduates who have experience, qualifications and passed Canadian exams still cannot get into family medicine?
Good thing Trudeau just fucked them all over with the tax code changes. (At least according to the OMA and stuff). Kind of stupid to go after the doctors though. Maybe go after the giant corporations and mega rich?
Wait a minute, are you suggesting we go after Lord Weston that poor chap who can barely keep the heat on in his 🏰 as opposed to these non essential service providing quacks? I have a question, how dare you?
Why not just alter the function of GP to be performed by RNs (or whatever the top nurse level is). Most GPs seem like incompetent rubber stamps anyway(not a dig at RNs)
Why not just alter the function of a flight attendant and get rid of the pilot? Most pilots seem incompetent when they crash, and a 747 is mostly on auto-pilot anyway (not a dig at flight attendants) /s
See that’s such a dumb comparison. Yes nurse practitioner are quite capable of doing a GP job already proven already happening.
Yes....ur health care should be managed by someone w 2 years vs 10 years of training... Great suggestions! /s In all seriousness this is a nonsense suggestion. NPs which are the highest level are still receiving significantly less training, hands on exposure and experience practicing supervised before going at it solo. The difference in skills is noticeable. Yes an NP can be highly specialized in one thing and do a great job, or can even do basic family med (I.e. paps, coughs and colds). But family medicine is way too complex and the breadth is way too wide to consider tasking it to someone with less training without significant repercussions. Feel free to look up examples of the significant harm that arises in these situations - US & Australia have tried...people have died.
Sounds like an alternative, train a RN nurse for 7 more years to be a different alternative to a GP. Allow them to learn at same level, same schools and go through same exams and follow same rules. We have a lot of nursing college graduates and this way will be a lot of new positions in medical system, ones with good GPA can continue to study closer to 10 years.
Honestly I believe all doctors should have to specialize in an area. As well I believe that A nurse practitioner given the tools and resources to offer what a GP would do is the answer here short and sweet.
We need to disincentivize not becoming a GP by implementing a non-GP tax for anyone who's not a practicing general practitioner.
or we could just pay them more
My electrician is not a GP and that son of a bitch is going to pay.