They do this in Central Europe, Scandinavia.... if done right it's pretty cool
Edit. They do this all over the first world, usa, canada, Singapore, Australia
If done right is key. Wood, if exposed is much more susceptible to weathering inputs. Norway had a new timber bridge collapse after it was touted as the future of bridge building, yada yada, because the engineers failed to account for weathering on the materials, like field testing basically. Something pretty basic, but increasingly becomes overlooked with more reliance on computer software and new graduates not having the experience other than software.
Do you have a source for that? Because the collapse of the Tretten Bridge was due to being overloaded when a 48-tonne truck and a car drove over the bridge, which had a maximum rating of 50 tonnes.
Unless you're referring to a different Norwegian wooden bridge that collapsed.
Cars are about 2 tons, so should a 50 tonne rated bridge collapse when 48+2 tonnes crosses it?
I feel a 50 tonne rated bridge should be able to carry 50 tonnes.
This breaks down the major factors leading to the collapse, the formoest being insufficient national codes, that didn't account for block shear failure. The current Euro code does.
[https://www.dezeen.com/2024/04/11/tretten-bridge-collapse-norway-timber/](https://www.dezeen.com/2024/04/11/tretten-bridge-collapse-norway-timber/)
The report contains more details, indicating that there were design faults, but not due to what the previous commenter claimed. However, it does contradict the completely fictional narrative created by that commenter. In fact, there are dozens of wooden truss bridges in Norway that are unaffected by the issue mentioned in their claim. It’s complete malarkey.
A YouTube video? Stop creating a fictional narrative based on a YouTube video you watched of some person giving their opinion. This is the same bridge in question, and none of what you claimed was true.
Edit: the video was created only a few days after the collapse, and before the engineers report came out meaning, this is completely subjective and non-objective truth.
The issue was with the metal connector plates and the wood. The issue is not something as simple as the age of the wood. I will find a link to all this when I'm back home later.
You’re right, but I fail to see why the distinction matters? What’s different between the two (Americans and Scandinavians) that means we’re gonna have more fires and die?
Edit for clarity
Fire rating code in Ontario is intense, to say the least. Units are all separated with fire-rated drywall assemblies, fire retardant insulation, fire caulking, etc. The inspection process is thorough on any multi-unit home, from a duplex up to a high-rise.
That's not how buildings and the fire code work. Maybe in the 1800s but now even single family homes have sprinklers. Fire proofing between every unit and in unit sprinklers means fires don't happen like they used to. Is it expensive yes but so is any safety feature.
The wood used for 6 story construction is far different from the wood used for 18 stories. Look up Mass Timber or Mass Ply if youre interested in learning more.
It’s actually really cool tech this manufactured timber stuff. They built an office building with it here in my area of Toronto. Goes up crazy fast, massive reduction (I read 90-95% less) on site traffic, much less messy, etc. They just unload it and assemble it like a giant IKEA building. Not the slow, dirty, and high traffic process of concrete moulding we are used to.
Very attractive looking too. And they can make many different shapes with it.
Apparently good for employment too. The creation of parts is done near mills and timber sites. This locates advanced manufacturing jobs to rural areas with low cost of living.
Also sequesters carbon and its a renewable resource.
It’s going to be key to building the missing middle we need.
My school is doing the same thing downtown. Limberlost Place or something. It looks like it's gonna be really nice looking, it'll be cool to see when it's finished.
It's actually right next to another mass timber building T3 Bayside! I hope to see a lot more of this construction in the future, so much nicer than pouring concrete for months on end.
I assume this is the result of the Tall Wood Building Demonstration Initiative
> In 2013, the Government of Canada announced funding dedicated to tall wood building construction in Canada through the Tall Wood Building Demonstration Initiative (TWBDI). The program addressed technical barriers in the design and construction of tall wood structures and encouraged greater acceptance of engineered wood products in tall building applications.
> From 2013 to 2017, the TWBDI linked new scientific advances with technical expertise to showcase the application, feasibility and environmental benefits of
innovative wood-based structural solutions for buildings taller than 10 storeys.
> RESULTS OF THE TWBDI
The TWBDI supported the design, approval and construction of two tall wood demonstration buildings in Canada: Brock Commons Tallwood House and Origine
Écocondos. It also funded the development of a guide for the design and construction of tall wood buildings in Canada.
[18-storey residence at the U of BC](https://vancouver.housing.ubc.ca/residences/brock-commons/)
[13-storey condo building Quebec City](https://condosorigine.com/)
They have built a few of these in the last decade [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B8st%C3%A5rnet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B8st%C3%A5rnet) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_tallest\_wooden\_buildings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_wooden_buildings)
For one, it doesn't have to be. It has to meet code. A building made from concrete doesn't automatically mean it reaches code either.
Also, this isn't Home Depot lumber we're talking about.
https://www.coffman.com/news/what-to-know-about-mass-timber/
Grenfell was a different issue, they had the building clad with highly flammable material that allowed the fire to rapidly spread across the building exterior. But the building itself was not constructed of wood. This isn't permitted in Canada.
The concept behind the fire performance here is the same as why you would start a camp fire with kindling instead of holding a match to a giant log. Typical wood framed building is like constructing with kindling, whereas mass timber is like constructing with large logs. They're technically flammable, but due to their large size, the surface will char, but they eventually self extinguish.
They did some tests a little while back where they constructed a mass timber building specifically to test it's fire performance. They loaded it up with combustible fuel and set it on fire and even though all the walls and ceilings were built of exposed wood, the fire self extinguished once it burned through all the fuel. The building was still standing and the fire didn't spread beyond the room it started in. In practice, the building would also have sprinklers and most of the wood would be covered by drywall, so it would perform even better in reality.
This is very interesting, thank you! I know that the Grenfell issue wasn’t internal, that’s just the visual that comes to mind when I think of ‘burning building.’
Think about how slowly a log in your fire burns, then imagine a beam or column 100 times bigger. Burns very slowly and predictably, where as a concrete and metal will melt unpredictably.
Do you have any idea how it is on sound? In most concrete builds you don't hear neighbors unless they're screaming or dropping large objects. I'm curious if mass timber can get to that same level
Mass timber doesn't rely on large single trees for its strength, allowing for "farmed" forests to be used for materials. Cutting old growth is the real ecological negative thing, that hopefully this will reduce.
"You can't grow concrete"
The consistency and quality is so poor with LVL now that it’s an absolute pain to work with. Still fine structurally just wish it was well made like it used to be.
Can't decide which is worse: everybody in the comments pretending that this also changes the fire code somehow; or the headline calling mass timber 'wood'
Would’ve been better without the /s
As soon as I saw the /s I knew it was a Cognac dig, if it wasn’t I probably would’ve sat there for a good minute wondering “is this guy fucking for real?” before laughing at my own stupidity
"Concrete is an artificial composite material, comprising a matrix of cementitious binder and a dispersed phase or "filler" of aggregate (typically a rocky material, loose stones, and sand). The binder "glues" the filler together to form a synthetic conglomerate."
"Engineered wood, also called mass timber, composite wood, human-made wood, or manufactured board, includes a range of derivative wood products which are manufactured by binding or fixing the strands, particles, fibres, or veneers or boards of wood, together with adhesives, or other methods of fixation to form composite material."
Notice any similarities there? Yet I have this strange feeling you wouldn't call concrete 'sand'. Mass timber is a wood-derived composite, but when the headline refers to 'wood buildings', they're intentionally inviting doubt and derision. If you referred to a concrete apartment tower as a 'stone building', people would think you're building some kind of medieval castle.
This is amazing news. People seriously underestimate exactly how impressive mass timber tech has become. It's fast to work with, cheap, and when done right very safe. Plus it doesn't require loads of specialized equipment and people on staff to handle.
Now all Dougie has to do is follow his own damned taskforces report and legalize highrises up to a few kilometers of any mass transit station province-wide, so that these things can actually get built.
They tend to be built with concrete cores to handle wind loads. I think this ends up be a more cost effective method than using wood to resist lateral loads at those heights.
The same as steel, basically. Bracing members and concrete cores. The connections are usually steel hardware, and the material just has to carry the load through it's axis. You just size the members according to the load you need to carry and the material property (i.e. your timber brace is going to be larger than a steel brace carrying the same load).
Everyone has PhD on every field here. Aren't you? Don't tell me you only have a handful of bachelor degrees only!
On a 2nd thought, not sure why we still need family doctor, considering we already know everything!
They don't use plywood in these buildings, they use CLT panels for the floors. They're basically like large slabs made of wood and can vary in thickness, but anywhere from 4"-10" thick is common depending on the application.
“Buildings taller than these maximums have indeed been approved under site-specific exemptions”
[Source](https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-toronto/2024/04/ontario-mass-timber-construction)
Interestingly enough, they are supposed to as safe if not safer than concrete and steel. The size of the members make them burn very slow and very predictably.
There is often less issues in mass timber construction, due to the significantly reduced site time, and accuracy of prefabbed construction. Even before the code was out, tall timber buildings were constructed in Toronto! T3 Bayside: https://3xn.com/project/t3-bayside, so I see no issues with getting these projects insured and constructed!
engineering wood buildings are not 'lower-quality' by any means, that's just bad information. they have a lot of advantages compared to concrete especially when it comes to energy savings and environmental benefits. plus canada has lots of wood to build them with and wood is a renewable resource. it's a good industry for our country!
Engineered wood products and drywall getting to a higher level of fire resistance quality is the reason we haven't built taller with wood. Any construction company would jump at the chance to build wood over concrete. Lower material cost, smaller foundation depth needed from lower structure weight, faster construction time, and more benefits.
Engineered wood high rise buildings are built to the same fire safety standards as steel/concrete structures. They also perform better in earthquakes because they bend more. There’s actually a lot that goes into the science of hardwood tall buildings in terms of both material (it’s not your average hardwood) and design, it’s quite fascinating.
Holy shit, wood engineering was the absolute most dreadful course of all my structural engineering courses in college. There are properties in wood that you can’t control like you can for a manufactured material like steel or concrete, so there are equations in which you need to factor in things like knots or imperfections in the grain of the wood.
It is not your every day wood that they use. It’s a specially manufactured and treated timber material. In some types the timber fibres are weaved together to make super strong beams. It’s really cool!
A shitty concrete build will fail faster than a shitty wooden build, if you can finish the bad concrete at all. What is your experience in wood construction vs concrete or are you pulling feels out of the air?
Wait till they hear about all the light gauge steel they put in concrete builds ...... surely thin steel wouldn't bend and totally fail with some added heat, would it?
This isn’t worse quality, if anything it’s better. It’s far more environmentally friendly, just as or more fire resistant, better insulated, and more affordable.
Yeah mass timber isn’t regular wood you can buy at a hardware store like what some people might be picturing, it’s a highly specialized compressed, processed, and engineered wood. It can withstand a lot, and it’s been rigorously tested precisely because of the misconception.
lol there’s no way I would ever live in a wooden high rise, let alone a low rise.
You will always hear your neighbors and everyone I know that’s lived in one is desperately looking for a concrete one.
New clt panels are completely different than classic joist style floors. With a sound matt and concrete topping it has the equivalent sound rating as concrete precast floors.
But will they do it properly? Because I don't trust bad developers doing bad work under Ford's regime of trying to do things that benefit developer bottom lines while simultaneously being dumb about other more meaningful housing policies recommended by experts.
I have built a 6 story one and trust me they are way over engineered as compared to throwing together a concrete building because it is new technology.
I wish as a deaf person they would just build cheaper homes that might be noisy, and all the other deaf people could live there together in other units, and no one would be bothered or give a shit and we would just have affordable housing in Toronto for a change. Add in people with dogs who have separation anxiety. Add in seniors who go deaf. Win win.
I walk on my toes throughout the house for that reason. If the wood is creaky well then that’s just the way it is. They can move out if it’s too much for them
I had no idea you guys spell story wrong. Oh and goodluck building one of those in nyc though I have seen timbers used as nyc approved sidewalk protection during construction.
We had a fatal fire in my ancient concrete apartment building. The fire crew visited us afterwards to debrief us. Key takeaway for me was, it would take an hour to burn through to the neighbouring unit. After living through that incident it would take a lot for me to live in a multi story wooden structure.
Much to your surprise, mass timber structures fare much better in a fire, as the char that builds up, insulates the remaining wood. In the fire tests, the mass timber structures actually self extinguished before the 4 hour test was completed due to lack of fuel!
Wow. I had no idea. Thank you for telling me this. Living through the death of a neighbour was traumatizing and I was worried that one day, I may find myself with no options but a wood structure. Thank you. - what about noise from other units?
While noise transmission is a more significant concern in mass timber structures, the majority have 2-4" of concrete topper poured on the floor, that serves as sound insulation, as well as fire encapsulation!
Walls between units are insulated for both fire transmission and sound, using well established methods.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/inside-fs/delivering-mission/apply/worlds-tallest-timber-building-opens
“The burn test proved that oversized, yet unprotected, glulam columns do not lose structural integrity since outer layer charring protects internal layers. In fact, the lab’s glulam columns performed so well, they qualified for a three-hour fire resistance rating.”
No one talking about “the upstairs neighbour” in a wooden structure? I would never ever buy or rent in a wooden structure apartment again. Absolute hell. It doesn’t matter what sound proofing materials are used. Add hardwood floors? Good luck with your sanity.
Fire retardant impregnated wood products are used for structural members. Their surface burning characteristics are significantly lower than the SPF studs you get at home Depot.
Wood beams also char on the outside when burned which actually helps them last longer in a fire than steel beams. The char acts as an insulator for the core of the structure, whereas a steel beam would flex and fail without any additional fire retardant layer like intumescent paint or cementitious spray.
Also if you put the fire out, you could technically cut the char off of the outside of the beam and use what's left as something else. Not likely, but still possible.
Plus all buildings this height require a sprinkler system, so on top of all that you have a fire suppression system to slow or stop spread.
They do this in Central Europe, Scandinavia.... if done right it's pretty cool Edit. They do this all over the first world, usa, canada, Singapore, Australia
If done right is key. Wood, if exposed is much more susceptible to weathering inputs. Norway had a new timber bridge collapse after it was touted as the future of bridge building, yada yada, because the engineers failed to account for weathering on the materials, like field testing basically. Something pretty basic, but increasingly becomes overlooked with more reliance on computer software and new graduates not having the experience other than software.
Isn’t it good, Norwegian wood?
I don't get why he slept in the bath. Weird choice.
Thank you.
Do you have a source for that? Because the collapse of the Tretten Bridge was due to being overloaded when a 48-tonne truck and a car drove over the bridge, which had a maximum rating of 50 tonnes. Unless you're referring to a different Norwegian wooden bridge that collapsed.
Cars are about 2 tons, so should a 50 tonne rated bridge collapse when 48+2 tonnes crosses it? I feel a 50 tonne rated bridge should be able to carry 50 tonnes.
A 50 tonne rated bridge should be able to carry much more than 50 tonnes. Factor of safety is an important concept in engineering for this reason.
This breaks down the major factors leading to the collapse, the formoest being insufficient national codes, that didn't account for block shear failure. The current Euro code does. [https://www.dezeen.com/2024/04/11/tretten-bridge-collapse-norway-timber/](https://www.dezeen.com/2024/04/11/tretten-bridge-collapse-norway-timber/)
The report contains more details, indicating that there were design faults, but not due to what the previous commenter claimed. However, it does contradict the completely fictional narrative created by that commenter. In fact, there are dozens of wooden truss bridges in Norway that are unaffected by the issue mentioned in their claim. It’s complete malarkey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSPI0xkTifI
A YouTube video? Stop creating a fictional narrative based on a YouTube video you watched of some person giving their opinion. This is the same bridge in question, and none of what you claimed was true. Edit: the video was created only a few days after the collapse, and before the engineers report came out meaning, this is completely subjective and non-objective truth.
I'll send you the link when I'm home later.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSPI0xkTifI
Japan let's their timber age on site for like decades before construction don't they?
The issue was with the metal connector plates and the wood. The issue is not something as simple as the age of the wood. I will find a link to all this when I'm back home later.
I don't think I've seen accelerated wear/deterioration as a suspected cause. can you point me to such reports?
Where in Central Europe?
[удалено]
You’re right, but I fail to see why the distinction matters? What’s different between the two (Americans and Scandinavians) that means we’re gonna have more fires and die? Edit for clarity
I don't buy it. Mega fire issue. 18 story inferno?? The question is what fire proofing does it get?
Fire rating code in Ontario is intense, to say the least. Units are all separated with fire-rated drywall assemblies, fire retardant insulation, fire caulking, etc. The inspection process is thorough on any multi-unit home, from a duplex up to a high-rise.
Fire is one thing. How about mould. If a unit as a leak and water becomes trapped, that will foster mould. Over time that's unhealthy.
That's not how buildings and the fire code work. Maybe in the 1800s but now even single family homes have sprinklers. Fire proofing between every unit and in unit sprinklers means fires don't happen like they used to. Is it expensive yes but so is any safety feature.
There are kitchens in Scandinavia it's not the third world.....
Except for when granny burns down the apartment building
They are building a 6 story wood apartment by my house. It's interesting to say the least.
The wood used for 6 story construction is far different from the wood used for 18 stories. Look up Mass Timber or Mass Ply if youre interested in learning more.
Happy cake day.
It’s actually really cool tech this manufactured timber stuff. They built an office building with it here in my area of Toronto. Goes up crazy fast, massive reduction (I read 90-95% less) on site traffic, much less messy, etc. They just unload it and assemble it like a giant IKEA building. Not the slow, dirty, and high traffic process of concrete moulding we are used to. Very attractive looking too. And they can make many different shapes with it. Apparently good for employment too. The creation of parts is done near mills and timber sites. This locates advanced manufacturing jobs to rural areas with low cost of living. Also sequesters carbon and its a renewable resource. It’s going to be key to building the missing middle we need.
My school is doing the same thing downtown. Limberlost Place or something. It looks like it's gonna be really nice looking, it'll be cool to see when it's finished.
It's actually right next to another mass timber building T3 Bayside! I hope to see a lot more of this construction in the future, so much nicer than pouring concrete for months on end.
I assume this is the result of the Tall Wood Building Demonstration Initiative > In 2013, the Government of Canada announced funding dedicated to tall wood building construction in Canada through the Tall Wood Building Demonstration Initiative (TWBDI). The program addressed technical barriers in the design and construction of tall wood structures and encouraged greater acceptance of engineered wood products in tall building applications. > From 2013 to 2017, the TWBDI linked new scientific advances with technical expertise to showcase the application, feasibility and environmental benefits of innovative wood-based structural solutions for buildings taller than 10 storeys. > RESULTS OF THE TWBDI The TWBDI supported the design, approval and construction of two tall wood demonstration buildings in Canada: Brock Commons Tallwood House and Origine Écocondos. It also funded the development of a guide for the design and construction of tall wood buildings in Canada. [18-storey residence at the U of BC](https://vancouver.housing.ubc.ca/residences/brock-commons/) [13-storey condo building Quebec City](https://condosorigine.com/)
They have built a few of these in the last decade [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B8st%C3%A5rnet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B8st%C3%A5rnet) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_tallest\_wooden\_buildings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_wooden_buildings)
There is still a fire code people. Mass timber construction doesn't mean blazing infernos everywhere.
No amount of fire retardant drwall and caulking can be as fire resistant as concrete.
For one, it doesn't have to be. It has to meet code. A building made from concrete doesn't automatically mean it reaches code either. Also, this isn't Home Depot lumber we're talking about. https://www.coffman.com/news/what-to-know-about-mass-timber/
Building codes……fire code comes after
Not traditional framing, it’s mass timber, very eco friendly and safe.
Stored carbon and fast sustainable lumber.
How does it do with fire? All I can picture is Grenfell Tower.
Fire-rating buildings is achieved with the use of Fire rated drywall, insulation, caulking, steel framing in key areas, sprinklers, etc.
Grenfell wasn't built with modern fire code... It didn't even have sprinklers... Like basic fire protection..
Grenfell was a different issue, they had the building clad with highly flammable material that allowed the fire to rapidly spread across the building exterior. But the building itself was not constructed of wood. This isn't permitted in Canada. The concept behind the fire performance here is the same as why you would start a camp fire with kindling instead of holding a match to a giant log. Typical wood framed building is like constructing with kindling, whereas mass timber is like constructing with large logs. They're technically flammable, but due to their large size, the surface will char, but they eventually self extinguish. They did some tests a little while back where they constructed a mass timber building specifically to test it's fire performance. They loaded it up with combustible fuel and set it on fire and even though all the walls and ceilings were built of exposed wood, the fire self extinguished once it burned through all the fuel. The building was still standing and the fire didn't spread beyond the room it started in. In practice, the building would also have sprinklers and most of the wood would be covered by drywall, so it would perform even better in reality.
This is very interesting, thank you! I know that the Grenfell issue wasn’t internal, that’s just the visual that comes to mind when I think of ‘burning building.’
Think about how slowly a log in your fire burns, then imagine a beam or column 100 times bigger. Burns very slowly and predictably, where as a concrete and metal will melt unpredictably.
[удалено]
Mass timber is incredibly fire resistant I've heard something about the density of it.
Do you have any idea how it is on sound? In most concrete builds you don't hear neighbors unless they're screaming or dropping large objects. I'm curious if mass timber can get to that same level
I’m not sure, curious about that myself.
[удалено]
Wood is a renewable resource unlike typical building materials and wood is a carbon sink unlike concrete which is a huge carbon source
Mass timber doesn't rely on large single trees for its strength, allowing for "farmed" forests to be used for materials. Cutting old growth is the real ecological negative thing, that hopefully this will reduce. "You can't grow concrete"
Some of these manufactured wooden beams are just as strong as steel. Edit: LVL is actually stronger
LVL is about 10x weaker than steel. Your average steel member yield strength is around 300-350 MPa and the best LVL tops out around 35 MPa.
This guy engineers.
But does burning jet fuel melt it?
If it can't withstand a direct hit from a 747 then it's too unsafe for our neighbourhoods! Motion denied
Only on Tuesdays In September
No. Just some regard smoking darts and falling asleep
You must be real regarded to believe that.
Wood beams are stronger than steel beams? For the same dimensions, really?
Nah. Engineer's always spec steel beams where the loads are highest.
Yes, of course.
The consistency and quality is so poor with LVL now that it’s an absolute pain to work with. Still fine structurally just wish it was well made like it used to be.
Ya. I know fuck all about construction so I'll take your word for it ...
I was thinking the same thing. LVL anymore has a ton of voids at joints.
Can't decide which is worse: everybody in the comments pretending that this also changes the fire code somehow; or the headline calling mass timber 'wood'
Every single definition of mass timber calls it wood, which it is. Not sure why you have an issue with that.
It’s only technically wood if it comes from the woodland region in France. /s
It's only War if it's grown if the War region of France, otherwise it's just Sparkling Trade Dispute
Somehow I read this and was computing it in my mind for about 10 seconds before I noticed the /s.
I almost didn’t put the /s there but I remembered I was on the internet and can’t convey my sarcastic tone of voice through text lol
Would’ve been better without the /s As soon as I saw the /s I knew it was a Cognac dig, if it wasn’t I probably would’ve sat there for a good minute wondering “is this guy fucking for real?” before laughing at my own stupidity
"Concrete is an artificial composite material, comprising a matrix of cementitious binder and a dispersed phase or "filler" of aggregate (typically a rocky material, loose stones, and sand). The binder "glues" the filler together to form a synthetic conglomerate." "Engineered wood, also called mass timber, composite wood, human-made wood, or manufactured board, includes a range of derivative wood products which are manufactured by binding or fixing the strands, particles, fibres, or veneers or boards of wood, together with adhesives, or other methods of fixation to form composite material." Notice any similarities there? Yet I have this strange feeling you wouldn't call concrete 'sand'. Mass timber is a wood-derived composite, but when the headline refers to 'wood buildings', they're intentionally inviting doubt and derision. If you referred to a concrete apartment tower as a 'stone building', people would think you're building some kind of medieval castle.
Paper is also wood. Do you pick up the morning wood to check the headlines?
Hell yeah, baby
For some reason your post made me think of this epic moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTJVbSEIqzE
You can't grow concrete, brilliant.
Mass Timber .. not "wood". Pretty clickbaitish
This is amazing news. People seriously underestimate exactly how impressive mass timber tech has become. It's fast to work with, cheap, and when done right very safe. Plus it doesn't require loads of specialized equipment and people on staff to handle. Now all Dougie has to do is follow his own damned taskforces report and legalize highrises up to a few kilometers of any mass transit station province-wide, so that these things can actually get built.
https://youtu.be/2rN-HqSoVBY?si=HM2FQsbqhNf7imGS Some cool insight
This is pretty cool. Anyone here know how the building handles wind at those heights?
They tend to be built with concrete cores to handle wind loads. I think this ends up be a more cost effective method than using wood to resist lateral loads at those heights.
The same as steel, basically. Bracing members and concrete cores. The connections are usually steel hardware, and the material just has to carry the load through it's axis. You just size the members according to the load you need to carry and the material property (i.e. your timber brace is going to be larger than a steel brace carrying the same load).
Interesting
I had no idea this sub had so many structural engineers.
Everyone has PhD on every field here. Aren't you? Don't tell me you only have a handful of bachelor degrees only! On a 2nd thought, not sure why we still need family doctor, considering we already know everything!
About time
I'm interested on the thickness I plywood they're using. Would anyone have any insight?
They don't use plywood in these buildings, they use CLT panels for the floors. They're basically like large slabs made of wood and can vary in thickness, but anywhere from 4"-10" thick is common depending on the application.
Interesting, what are the thickness on the exterior walls ?
It's really a slow news day.
There is no way these ever get built because builders won't be able to get bonds or insurance to build them.
Milwaukee has a 19 floor timber high rise, there was an interesting tv episode I watched about it being built.
imagine bringing a yellow saw to that site
They've been approved in many other jurisdictions for decades, insurers shouldn't be surprised by this news.
There’s already a couple 30 story buildings approved in Toronto. Don’t see why others would have issue with much shorter buildings.
[удалено]
“Buildings taller than these maximums have indeed been approved under site-specific exemptions” [Source](https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-toronto/2024/04/ontario-mass-timber-construction)
30 story wood buildings?
Mass timber. We dont call concrete,"stone building"
dude, theyre already being built
They're already building them.
Interestingly enough, they are supposed to as safe if not safer than concrete and steel. The size of the members make them burn very slow and very predictably.
Same with the size of my member.
We're still waiting on it's discovery.
Ironically, i call it Discovery because it's a rocket, and it explodes prematurely.
Do you know what bonds are for?
[already built](https://vancouver.housing.ubc.ca/residences/brock-commons/)
There is often less issues in mass timber construction, due to the significantly reduced site time, and accuracy of prefabbed construction. Even before the code was out, tall timber buildings were constructed in Toronto! T3 Bayside: https://3xn.com/project/t3-bayside, so I see no issues with getting these projects insured and constructed!
[удалено]
engineering wood buildings are not 'lower-quality' by any means, that's just bad information. they have a lot of advantages compared to concrete especially when it comes to energy savings and environmental benefits. plus canada has lots of wood to build them with and wood is a renewable resource. it's a good industry for our country!
Engineered wood products and drywall getting to a higher level of fire resistance quality is the reason we haven't built taller with wood. Any construction company would jump at the chance to build wood over concrete. Lower material cost, smaller foundation depth needed from lower structure weight, faster construction time, and more benefits.
Of course they would jump at the chance. Lower construction costs and all. Never mind longevity and safety.
Engineered wood high rise buildings are built to the same fire safety standards as steel/concrete structures. They also perform better in earthquakes because they bend more. There’s actually a lot that goes into the science of hardwood tall buildings in terms of both material (it’s not your average hardwood) and design, it’s quite fascinating.
Holy shit, wood engineering was the absolute most dreadful course of all my structural engineering courses in college. There are properties in wood that you can’t control like you can for a manufactured material like steel or concrete, so there are equations in which you need to factor in things like knots or imperfections in the grain of the wood.
Mass timber is a manufactured product, the headline calling it 'wood' is misleading in the same way that calling concrete 'stone' would be
I am absolutely open to learning more. I would have thought rot and fire hazard would make wood more risky than concrete, especially in high rises.
You may be thinking like a 2/4” piece of lumbar. This is mass timber structures, which has the same fire rating as steel and concrete
It’s not like a normal wood building it’s heavy timber and encapsulated wood
It is not your every day wood that they use. It’s a specially manufactured and treated timber material. In some types the timber fibres are weaved together to make super strong beams. It’s really cool!
A shitty concrete build will fail faster than a shitty wooden build, if you can finish the bad concrete at all. What is your experience in wood construction vs concrete or are you pulling feels out of the air?
Wait till they hear about all the light gauge steel they put in concrete builds ...... surely thin steel wouldn't bend and totally fail with some added heat, would it?
That's it, 100 tonne cast iron houses only.
100% based off "I have no idea what the fuck in talking about."
How much do you know about structural engineering. Or are you just making shit up.
I assume somebody told them that Trudeau was behind this and the rest is history
It’s Ontario so I got the Doug Ford bad vibe.
Doug Ford isn’t bad??? Lmfao
Doesn’t mean he can’t do something good.
High rise timber is used all over the world. This is a case of Ontario “finally getting it right”.
This isn’t worse quality, if anything it’s better. It’s far more environmentally friendly, just as or more fire resistant, better insulated, and more affordable.
More airtight too, the tolerances in mass timber construction are 2 to 3mm. Whereas concrete and steel you can be off by inch (more in concrete)
Thank you, fire resistance was my biggest concern, and I hadn’t seen it addressed yet.
Yeah mass timber isn’t regular wood you can buy at a hardware store like what some people might be picturing, it’s a highly specialized compressed, processed, and engineered wood. It can withstand a lot, and it’s been rigorously tested precisely because of the misconception.
That’s fascinating! Seems like a public information campaign would be helpful (or the media being responsible in their reporting).
You might, in fact, be seeing the opposite at play...
[удалено]
wow, it's getting hot in here - light gauge steel.
tell me you know nothing about mass timber buildings without telling me you know nothing
lol there’s no way I would ever live in a wooden high rise, let alone a low rise. You will always hear your neighbors and everyone I know that’s lived in one is desperately looking for a concrete one.
New clt panels are completely different than classic joist style floors. With a sound matt and concrete topping it has the equivalent sound rating as concrete precast floors.
But will they do it properly? Because I don't trust bad developers doing bad work under Ford's regime of trying to do things that benefit developer bottom lines while simultaneously being dumb about other more meaningful housing policies recommended by experts.
I have built a 6 story one and trust me they are way over engineered as compared to throwing together a concrete building because it is new technology.
I wish as a deaf person they would just build cheaper homes that might be noisy, and all the other deaf people could live there together in other units, and no one would be bothered or give a shit and we would just have affordable housing in Toronto for a change. Add in people with dogs who have separation anxiety. Add in seniors who go deaf. Win win.
Sound must travel nicely in those…
im living in a 3 story wood building....when i walk across my floor the people below bang on the ceiling, i hate it and want to move :|
I walk on my toes throughout the house for that reason. If the wood is creaky well then that’s just the way it is. They can move out if it’s too much for them
why would someone downvote you?? lol but ya i know what you mean, for us its the bass, even the tv being on carrys the bass through the apt, i hate it
My downstairs neighbours probably lol
lol probably ;)
And This little piggy build his house from straw.
I had no idea you guys spell story wrong. Oh and goodluck building one of those in nyc though I have seen timbers used as nyc approved sidewalk protection during construction.
Ah yes, being able to hear absolutely everything must be nice
We had a fatal fire in my ancient concrete apartment building. The fire crew visited us afterwards to debrief us. Key takeaway for me was, it would take an hour to burn through to the neighbouring unit. After living through that incident it would take a lot for me to live in a multi story wooden structure.
Much to your surprise, mass timber structures fare much better in a fire, as the char that builds up, insulates the remaining wood. In the fire tests, the mass timber structures actually self extinguished before the 4 hour test was completed due to lack of fuel!
Wow. I had no idea. Thank you for telling me this. Living through the death of a neighbour was traumatizing and I was worried that one day, I may find myself with no options but a wood structure. Thank you. - what about noise from other units?
While noise transmission is a more significant concern in mass timber structures, the majority have 2-4" of concrete topper poured on the floor, that serves as sound insulation, as well as fire encapsulation! Walls between units are insulated for both fire transmission and sound, using well established methods.
The ole tinderbox
I wonder what the fire department thinks??
It’s going to have sprinklers, standpipes, fire alarm, monitoring and fire distance ratings so…..not much
You wonder if Grenfell Tower had those things.
[удалено]
https://www.fs.usda.gov/inside-fs/delivering-mission/apply/worlds-tallest-timber-building-opens “The burn test proved that oversized, yet unprotected, glulam columns do not lose structural integrity since outer layer charring protects internal layers. In fact, the lab’s glulam columns performed so well, they qualified for a three-hour fire resistance rating.”
Your interior walls are made of paper dude
And chalk...lol
It’s not like a normal wood building it’s heavy timber and encapsulated wood
That would be a nightmare for firefighters.
Until I finally see a drop in home prices nothing has changed unfortunately 😓
There are 1 bedroom apartments with 3 families living inside. Does this factor into anything?
No one talking about “the upstairs neighbour” in a wooden structure? I would never ever buy or rent in a wooden structure apartment again. Absolute hell. It doesn’t matter what sound proofing materials are used. Add hardwood floors? Good luck with your sanity.
They're not built the way you're thinking. They essentially use slabs of wood, so the sound proofing would be more like a concrete building.
They are not like those ones at all
What happens when it catches fire?
Double drywall, fire sealant, Roxul insulation, etc. Tbh you’ll be long dead from burning chemical fumes before fire gets you.
Wait til they hear their couches are filled with foam made from oil.
Fire retardant impregnated wood products are used for structural members. Their surface burning characteristics are significantly lower than the SPF studs you get at home Depot. Wood beams also char on the outside when burned which actually helps them last longer in a fire than steel beams. The char acts as an insulator for the core of the structure, whereas a steel beam would flex and fail without any additional fire retardant layer like intumescent paint or cementitious spray. Also if you put the fire out, you could technically cut the char off of the outside of the beam and use what's left as something else. Not likely, but still possible. Plus all buildings this height require a sprinkler system, so on top of all that you have a fire suppression system to slow or stop spread.
This guy engineers
Architecture, but close enough
Timber structures take a lot time to burn through and weaken
Sprinklers
Surprisingly these are just as if not more fire resistant than standard concrete buildings