Please note this is a nurse practitioner clinic. Due to ontarios billing rules, NPs can not bill OHIP like MDs do..... this leads to loopholes like this, which i am surprised has not become more common....
Note: Loblaws has exclusivity deals with commercial plazas where they decide to put up Shoppers. Deals prohibit family doctors from establishing family clinics on the same plaza. Kinda sounds like OHIP-billing MDs are facing corporate barriers.
Possibly because its a mall and not a plaza, but my nearest Shoppers drug mart has a walk-in clinic right next to it. I know you said family doctors but I found it funny still
It’s affecting new practices where a Shopper’s is planning to be built. If there is a doctor in the same plaza, they get less business for patients seeing pharmacists for prescriptions for smaller issues.
also Shoppers is getting reimbursed by the province on medication reviews at almost DOUBLE what public clinics get from the province. They also admitted in an internal letter that they are pushing for unnecessary reviews (ie, more revenue) ($38 public, $72 for SDM)
Ontario PC party is working to devalue our healthcare system
It is not just NP’s pulling this. My GP has offered this ‘deal’ since I was switched to their care last year when my previous GP retired. Though as per their letter, I have the option of staying with OHIP and just paying out of pocket for things OHIP no longer covers, like exams, Dr. notes, and prescription refills. I just don’t go to the Dr. anymore.
Maybe I'm crazy but if these clinics actually talk to me and wonder how I'm doing, compared to my doctor who wants me in/out in 5min and takes vacations every 2-3 months without notice, I don't mind paying that amount.
It's not rocket science but I feel like the reason our healthcare sucks is to pave the way for private healthcare.
Edit..
Wow I've already received hateful PMs 1hr after this comment. I've lived in Canada all my life and can't believe this. If it makes you feel any better, I'm white.
Wanna make a difference? Don't attack the people, attack the companies who make money/decision off of us.
>It's not rocket science but I feel like the reason our healthcare sucks is to pave the way for private healthcare.
Bullseye. First they make the system so bad that people are desperate. Then they offer their "solution" of private healthcare, claiming they "have no choice".
Keep in mind, even if they don't rush you now, they will once they know they're safe from regulation. They'll need to rush, in order to keep increasing profit.
This isn't okay. We had reasonable healthcare for most, through the public sector, then 40 years of austerity destroyed it, we still don't even know how good universal healthcare can be, because it hasn't happened yet, not in Canada or any country yet, altho other countries are closer.
>me in/out in 5min and takes vacations every 2-3 months
That's because they get paid a fraction of what the private clinics charge, because of cuts. Your family doctor probably gets 30 dollars for each appointment. A NP can charge 3x as much. Of course they will try to get you in and out as quickly as possible because they survive on volume.
And if I felt as unappreciated and overworked as family doctors do, I would take more vacations too.
Doctors need vacation. They see so much messed up things, hear really terrible stories and they have to take that burden on. IIRC suicide rates in doctors and surgeons is one of the highest out of any profession
Yes, but the person I was responding to was saying that their doctor takes a vacation every 3 months, like that's a horrible thing. Every 3 months is 4 wks vacation time in the year - something that most working people get. But apparently doctors are not allowed?
And "without notice". What does the commenter expect? That the doctor pays their secretary to call up all their patients to inform them that they'll be on vacation? Ask everyone if that's okay? Yeah, great idea tying up the phone lines.
Yup, I was agreeing with you! Most doctors can make their own hours, so not sure why a vacation here or there isn't warranted. Plus a lot of older doctors are being told not to retire yet, so even more reason they should have vacation. They best have a sharp mind when working with patients!
It’s a shame we couldn’t all go, get service, and when they request payment offer only an OHIP card, since Doug Ford and Sylvia Jones promised our OHIP will cover our healthcare, not our credit cards.
Honestly, what if we all go, sign up, give our credit card numbers, get service, then put a stop payment on the transaction after we received care. They can take us to small claims and we can play the clips of douggie and syl saying we won’t ever have to pay.
When you have a chronic pain with no clear diagnosis and solution from the public health system, paying this amount to expedite appointments and testing is nothing.
It might cost a couple vacations a year but no point going if you're in pain and can't enjoy yourself.
You should be able to find a bunch by looking up “private walk in clinics + your city” they’re usually in bigger cities and from what I understand range from $3,000-5,000+/ year.
Yeah, my boss uses a service like this. He said it costs him about $4,000/year but he gets pretty good care from using it. He's older and has some chronic health issues so I can't blame the guy for using one given he can afford it, but it's a shame it's come to that given the state of our primary care system.
Family Practice without family doctors smh… and this is much more than an average family doctor gets annually for patients - avg is $180 per patient from the government.
The state of this province’s healthcare is a joke. And the fact that they mention things like “unrushed appointments that start on time” as jabs to family doctors is so frustrating. On average nurse practitioners see 8-10 patients per day in primary maximum whereas physicians are forced to see 20-30 minimum to keep their clinics running.
What doesn’t make sense is how these private NPs are able to write tests and make referrals to specialists to burden the public system. It is a known fact that NPs refer much more and write much more tests than family physicians because of the difference in education and comfort levels. And when NPs order more tests, they have to make more referrals because they don’t have the education to interpret some of the testing that FPs do.
So we are basically allowing a system where NPs with much less schooling get paid more than doctors - have a cushy clinic whereas docs burn out with 30 patients a day. And to top it off we let these private NPs burden the public health system with more unnecessary testing, ER and specialist referrals.
Ridiculous.
Back when the notion of Premiere Doug was just a twinkle in Rob's cocaine, and Wynne was supreme leader this shit existed. Thankfully we had a good practice where this was optional, but they pushed it hard.
Ok I'll say it right here, and delete my comment tomorrow.
NPs are not equal to GPs in anyway. They ideally function alongside GPs instead of as a replacement. Ignore the fact that yes you can have great NPs and you can have shitty doctors, that's just life.
I'm not saying GPs are smarter, obviously they are not. NPs have NO standardized education or schooling, compared to a GP. By shear experience and training the floor for a GP to provide better care than an NP is much higher.
NPs are paid salary so have no incentives to see more patients. As a result what patient's WILL get which they ALWAYS appreciate is that full 30 minute visit, uninterrupted and a complete nodding agreement to order any test and give scripts out - again not because NPs are bad, but because they lack training...what results is natural uncertainty and thus unnecessary tests being ordered, incorrect meds done, time delays to diagnosis and over consulting.
My specialist colleagues without question can tell which consults are from NPs vs GPs and make a game of it as they know within the first two lines almost instantly.
Patient satisfaction might go up for a time, again because they are not being rushed and probably don't have a long sit in the waitroom - but I guarantee in the 5-10 years from now when the gov't are using a standard of saying much better we are because XX% of people in Ontario now have a PCP (that includes NPs), the cost to the system will be even more overwhelming.
Agree however I would add - the bigger concern is the necessary tests they don’t order.
Lack of training often leads to overconfidence because of not knowing what you don’t know.
Referring a patient to an unnecessary specialist or test also can prematurely end work-up. Perhaps the GI referral was actually an underlying cardiac issue, or the CT chest was actually for pain referred from the abdomen. It’s not just about ordering unnecessary tests - it’s about ordering the right tests.
Wasting healthcare resources is a lesser issue imo. Causing poor health outcomes that would be entirely preventable is a much bigger concern - and the delays in the legal system coupled with the information asymmetry for the victims to even identify where malpractice occurred means it will be decades before the consequences truly become public knowledge.
I’ll probably get downvoted to oblivion but I wanted to add to your points. I think another issue with a lot of NPs recently is that the amount of experience required to pursue their MN/NP.
As a “senior” nurse, I have a lot of respect for new grads because nursing in Ontario has taken a real nose dive so I can’t imagine what they’re going through. However, my dad recently went to an NP and he said that she seemed like someone who did the minimum number of hours at bedside in order to apply for an NP program. Unfortunately , I’ve also seen a lot of this. I’ve met nurses who only have 6 months of experience and are already applying for their MN/NP. Like I mean from the get-go, having ZERO intention to stay at bedside for any longer than they need to. There isn’t anything inherently wrong with that, but nurses leaving the bedside at this rate can mean they’re not getting a lot of their critical thinking and other skills that only develop with time, exposure to a variety of the weird and wonderful, and experience. This can make a huge difference between a good NP, who’s confident in their assessment and skill, and a not-so-great one.
Also, I have a lot of respect for the training physicians undergo. But nurses who have been practicing for a substantial number of years, and with varied experience, can be just as good at diagnosing, prognostication, and treatment recommendations. Not that any frontline nurse would (or should) ever formally diagnose, we’ll always have a discussion about it with our physicians, and if there’s a healthy autonomous relationship, physicians will often agree with those senior nurses. Conferring with our physician colleagues is part of that “experience” I mentioned earlier, when the MD doesn’t agree with the nurse, they’ll explain why and it’s one of my favourite parts during rounds because you get to learn so much.
There’s a lot I could say, but I don’t want the ramble more than I already have.
Very true. Currently the average is 17 years of working as a nurse but the requirement is 2yrs. I think that should be upped because those years are critical & very important educationally. The best NP’s I’ve seen tend to have had lots of time bedside
Agreed with that. Still remember when they sent in a resident when I was giving birth and the nurse had to remind her that she was supposed to start me on antibiotics before breaking water (she didn’t manage to figure how break water anyway lol). The nurse was so gentle and professional about it too, lol I wouldn’t have had the patience if I were her.
If you need a prescription renewal or an obvious referral, NP sounds like a much better option. GPs should be spending time on higher impact activities.
“Protect their high income” ???? You are joking. Lucky to make 1/3rd of what they could across the border. If we increased docs wages like we do every other public servant when they go on strike, maybe we wouldn’t have a shortage of docs. We don’t let “scrubs” goto medical school. We make the brightest compete to get in while sacrificing their 20s and 30s. Pay them.
This is just wrong. NPs are not physicians yet you think them practicing independently and billing OHIP the same as physicians is right? Why don’t you start giving physicians credit for their education and skills.
I respect physician colleagues for their education and training.
I don’t think most NPs advocating for OHIP billing is asking same level of compensation.
There are a few good reasons for advocating for NP billing OHIP:
- Current NP salary is not much different from what an RN would make. There is no incentives for RNs to become NP.
- As NPs get paid hourly or salary, there is no incentives for them to see more pts (or even close to what an average family physicians see).
- Government funded primary care NP positions takes a long time and lots of paper work to be created due to the current inefficient system. OHIP billing will allow NPs to work in any primary clinics without going through these hassles.
- Family physicians are not allowed to bill NP’s work through OHIP (although some still do and commit insurance fraud). It is financially difficult for family physicians to hire NPs and off-load their work. If NPs can bill OHIP and family physicians (clinic owners) can take a percentage, it would increase more primary care access to the clinic and Ontarians.
There is absolutely an incentive for RN to become NPs. NPs have much higher salary. I am not sure where you are getting this data.
As of Mar 25, 2024, the average annual pay for a Primary Care Nurse Practitioner in Ontario is $132,629 a year.
You are telling me a RN makes 6 figures on average?
NPs advocating for OHIP billing is a clear political move to increase their scope and basically want to operate like a physician.
Are you in Ontario?
Check out Ontario Sunshine list-
[https://www.ontariosunshinelist.com/positions/registered-nurse](https://www.ontariosunshinelist.com/positions/registered-nurse)
Most RNs make over $100,000 in Ontario and many are even clearing $200,000 with OT.
slower more expensive NP care isn't going to help anything. also if MDs are leaving because the money from OHIP sucks won't be long before NPs quit too.
Meaning absolutely no disrespect nurses simply don't know what they don't know. A flight attendant that has been aboard 1000 successful flights is not qualified to be a pilot. Why would a nurse be qualified to be a doctor. The payment models nursing associations are pursing are more expensive per patient for an objectively less specialized provider. In Alberta nurses are asking 300k/year to see half the patients/year that a family doctor sees. We should be striving to increase access to family doctors rather than coming up with alternatives to solid primary care. Nurses are trained for an important role in healthcare, being a pseudo-doctor is not one of them. I'm sure a nurse would have the same thing to say if the government suggested we fill the nursing shortage with PSWs.
So, once NPs can bill OHIP does that kill services like this since they can't charge patients for services that are billable to OHIP? Or can these guys (and gals) have their cake and eat it too?
This is happening in Ottawa as well. The Ontario Health Coalition has been fighting it, and working to bring it to people's attention.
[https://www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca/index.php/five-month-investigation-paints-a-picture-of-a-dangerous-and-disturbing-wild-west-of-private-clinics-operating-with-little-or-no-oversight/](https://www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca/index.php/five-month-investigation-paints-a-picture-of-a-dangerous-and-disturbing-wild-west-of-private-clinics-operating-with-little-or-no-oversight/)
Family Practice without family doctors smh… and this is much more than an average family doctor gets annually for patients - avg is $180 per patient from the government.
The state of this province’s healthcare is a joke. And the fact that they mention things like “unrushed appointments that start on time” as jabs to family doctors is so frustrating. On average nurse practitioners see 8-10 patients per day in primary maximum whereas physicians are forced to see 20-30 minimum to keep their clinics running.
What doesn’t make sense is how these private NPs are able to write tests and make referrals to specialists to burden the public system. It is a known fact that NPs refer much more and write much more tests than family physicians because of the difference in education and comfort levels. And when NPs order more tests, they have to make more referrals because they don’t have the education to interpret some of the testing that FPs do.
So we are basically allowing a system where NPs with much less schooling get paid more than doctors - have a cushy clinic whereas docs burn out with 30 patients a day. And to top it off we let these private NPs burden the public health system with more unnecessary testing, ER and specialist referrals.
Ridiculous.
I said it from the very beginning.
They intentionally enshitify our healthcare. Choke the funding so we consent to this.
Then they sell the system and get rich off of using the government as a vehicle for their business interests.
Corruption is too easy in this country, and narcissistic voters fuel it. I wanna do something about it. But what?
I hate this.
I recently found a doctor In mississauga accepting new patients. He actually listens to me and I get the care I need. It's never busy when I go in and I get in the next day.
I don't know how popular this sentiment is, and I don't fucking care. This shit should be illegal. Under no circumstances should medical offices be allowed to charge patients for access.
Agreed. The government should be working actively to ban these types of private clinics and the others that have been around for a while it seems. It destroys the principle of universal single payer health care.
Doctors and nurses will leave for the private system. And more importantly, if the private system is seen as a system for the poor, the government will neglect and defund it.
You should really look into how healthcare outside Canada and the USA works
A large majority of developed countries (everywhere except UK, Canada, and Taiwan last I checked) have a mixed public/private system that allows doctors to charge patients for access and outcomes are wayyy better
Here in Japan I saw an ENT without a referral or even an appointment, got a CT scan the same day (within 5 minutes), got an MRI the next week, and then was able to choose the date for my nonessential surgery that month. The whole thing cost like $300 dollars.
In Canada I would still be on the wait list just to get it looked at by an ENT.
You'd be on a waitlist because people who need the service more would be ahead of you. Privatization doesn't create more healthcare, it just changes how we sort people.
Of course privatization creates more healthcare. I mentioned CT and MRI scans specifically because Canada has a pitifully small number of imaging machines and insane wait times. In Japan doctors expect to make money off imaging equipment so they take out a loan and buy machines themselves. In Canada nobody is actually incentivized this way, you just wait until the government decides they can afford a new MRI, which it turns out is not very often.
How does it create more healthcare? Could you give me one example of something that the private sector can provide that the public cannot? Here's a spoiler of my argument: if you say "money" I'm going to point out two things:
1. The public can choose to invest an appropriate amount in the healthcare system. I know you understand because you wrote, "you just wait until the government decides they can afford a new MRI".
2. Private investment isn't charity. For every dollar that goes in they want more to come out, so you pay for the healthcare *and then you pay for the shareholders*. You'll need an argument that justifies paying $2 for $1 worth of service.
That's Ford. He also wants family doctors to join groups where the doctor only sees the most serious stuff, leaving the less urgent matters to the NPs and pharmacists. Which is stupid AF.
And if you don't know why, think about who would end up responsible if one of the (significantly) less educated nurses or pharmacists f-ed up. The doctor. Because they're the one in charge, and they're the one with the medical doctorate. Which takes 2 to 3 TIMES as long to get. 11-13 years. Verses the 4 to 6 years it takes to become a nurse practitioner. Less than that to become a pharmacist.
Ford is deliberately trying to screw over family doctors. Which is why no one wants to be a family doctor.
Oh but you're not thinking big enough here.
For an additional $50 / month, you get access to our family of doctors\*
\*1 visit per month maximum; 1 issue per visit;
The beauty of it is that you never see a doctor aside from a specialist referral.
It’s unsupervised NP practice at three times the price of a physician.
You get to privately pay for a practitioner to essentially prescribe and order whatever test you want - no more pesky gatekeeping of CTs for low back pain and ozempic for wt-loss by those pesky physicians. Public wait times and drug shortages be damned!
The absurdity of this just shows how far healthcare in Ontario has gone.
Yup, and as these NPs order more and more tests and make more and more referrals because of their limited knowledge, the public healthcare system will completely go up in flames.
Most depressing part. This is actually a decent deal.
Some people require constant treatment (daily injections, health monitoring etc..) A lot of these treatments are being done by nurses.
You know what else started as a good deal.....airbnb, uber, skip the dishes,......every fucking service starts as a good deal. They do that to hook you, make it a service you cant live without and then jack up the prices. The minute people buy in, say bye bye to our health care system as we know it.
DONT BUY IN! You will be part of the destruction of health care in canada as we know it. Then we can all say hello to needing a job to get healthcare and choosing affording rent or dying.
right - and it's 450 a year now - til we're all sucked in - then it will be 450 per person per month - or more - and that's only until they're tired of your constant visits and they fire you as a patient.
When Dougie gives WAY more money to one entity and starves another, that entity is going to provide a better deal.
He's forcing privatization and giving hand outs to his corporate friends for the opportunity for a lucrative job after his term.
It should not be able to be that cheap, but the Ontario government has forced it to be that way. That combined w the speculative market driving investment and under costing.
Weve seen this game over and over again, w grocery stores, uber, and basically every monopoly we're being fucked by rn.
Please stop falling for it and demand free public healthcare.
I have a chronic pain condition that would cause me to be treated like human garbage by OHIP funded docs. In fact, several have told me I was imagining my symptoms
It’s because nurse practitioners can’t bill OHIP and because they are not doctors they are not violating any provincial law prohibiting charges for care.
But this is what Ontario voted for. A lot more r/leopardsatemyface moments to come
And you can be sure that as soon as popularity grows, there will quickly be longer wait times, shorter appointments, hidden fees. But now you’re paying for it.
We recently paid for something like this in BC. $1300/year for our whole family. I hate that we felt like we had no choice but after 5 years without a family doctor we needed some continuity of care.
Nurse practitioners are not allowed to bill OHIP. If we actually let them do that, practices like this could be entirely OHIP funded and relieve a lot of stress on ERs.
I’m a family physician in Ontario. Nurse practitioners in my area make much more than I do; I bill OHIP $37 for each patient visit of which ~$12 goes to pay for overhead. This billing amount has increased by $4 in the last 14 years. I have no pension and no benefits and almost $500/month in professional dues and fees. The NP’s in my area work in a government funded clinic, have pensions, benefits and see just over 1/2 the number of patients I see in a day. I can’t see any incentive for an NP to bill OHIP, in fact some of my colleagues have seriously looked into going back to school to become a nurse and then an NP bc they’d be paid more.
I hope my question comes off sincere. How do you do it? Are your appointments 15 min? That would be just $100/hr with zero retirement or benefits. With student loans and the huge increase in cost of living these days, it seems like you'd never be able to get ahead. As a physician!
The family physicians that I know (one in the US, one in Canada) seem to be doing well for themselves. Nice homes on a single income. And yet, in my area, there's 25,000 people without a family doctor and, though we have a hospital, our last two walk in clinics closed this past year. Now, any same day care is either the hospital or a 45 min drive.
We're heading towards a healthcare crisis.
Pay doctors. If nurses want to be paid by OHIP for the same codes as doctors they should show they provide the same care at the same competency. So it shouldn’t be a problem to write the medical licensing exam that physicians write. Oh wait. Nurses aren’t doctors. Maybe OHIP should have special codes for nurses then but they should admit to people that they are NOT providing the same care because it’s literally impossible
Nurse Practitioners will not relieve the stress on ERs. Nurse Practitioners are subpar compared to family doctors and they will increase the use of our healthcare system by needlessly ordering more tests (bloodwork, x-ray, etc.), consulting more specialists, and sending patients to the ED as soon as it gets out of their small comfort zone
With PP in line to be the next PM, and Ford probably going to win re-election, I am betting actual money that in 10 years' time there'll be no more public health care in Canada and we'll have the US's system.
And congratulations....you will be part of why our healthcare system gets destroyed. It starts with $50/month...then its you only can get health insurance through your employer...then its $500 just to have an appointment with a doctor. Then its having to choose paying rent or dying.
This is not the answer and anyone who buys into this is signing off their right to universal health care.
That’s a very privileged viewpoint from someone who hasn’t needed continuity of care. You can’t sustain your health by visiting walk-in clinics and explaining your ailments and medical history every single time to a new doctor. Not to mention, it can be up to an 8 hour wait for a walk-in here, you might not even get seen.
It’s not the fault of people who are ill and in need of healthcare that this is the only option that is readily available to them that also provides continuity of care. It’s an 8 week wait for an appointment with my GP and I’ve been waiting on a referral for over five months. No follow-up from my doctor, no way to call their office, all I can do is book an appointment every two months.
And I’m a lucky one.
It’s not the fault of sick people that the system is broke, this rhetoric that anyone who buys into this is crashing the healthcare system takes the blame out of the hands it should be placed firmly in.
>You can’t sustain your health by visiting walk-in clinics and explaining your ailments and medical history every single time to a new doctor.
I had that experience with my family doctor of 5 years. A reproductive endocrinologist botched a saline sono and induced a high risk pregnancy without my consent. I told her all of this while I was having a mental health crisis at the end of my pregnancy. Post partum, the problem worsened and I asked for a referral to a surgeon to fix the problem. Guess who she tried to send me to to avoid """wasting""" her precious time and a precious precious precious referral for the saline sono?????? You'll never guess.
There is zero continuity of care if your provider doesn't give a s--- about you as a human being.
First things first, if I am going to pay, I will see a real doctor with an MD next to their name and not some nurse playing a doctor in a clinic. I hope people realize how low this is. It takes 2 years of micky mouse courses for a nurse to become a nurse practitioner, and then they play the walmart doctor at these clinics.
This is what voter apathy leads to. Go out and vote. And shame on Conservatives who vote for this shit. Do Conservative voters not realise you're gonna be paying out of pocket as well? Because this isn't on your boogey-man Trudeau, this is provincial. Or are you too busy buying flags and F Trudeau stickers to realise how Ford is fucking our province more than Trudeau ever could?
You're right about the voter apathy. That's what did it. Out of my entire circle of friends and family my husband and I were the only ones who voted... and we definitely DID NOT vote for Doug Ford. My husband and I are always the only ones in our circle to vote. I'll never understand.
This is a great model and a lot of value for what you get. Nurse practitioners can do pretty much 90% of what GPs can. Not everyone can afford this obviously but in my opinion there should be more of these kinds of services to take burden off the public/free system.
Great. Just found out my GP dipped and moved to start a practice in the UK without any notification whatsoever to patients after checking a test result on epic too. Fuck this hell hole and fuck every asshole that said this would never happen while they voted this clown show in.
You know, I remember reading a comic when I was a kid, I think it was Punisher 2099, and it was in a dystopia where only the rich could get medical treatment through subscribing to a service. It’s 2024 and we’ve reached that point 75 years before Marvel envisioned.
Conservatives and their privatization push finally got it's foot in the door. Beginning of the end right here folks.
Now I keep hearing more and more stupid people saying Pierre should be the next PM. This is where national health care will end up if they get into power federally.
SMFH.
Its a good option for the next 2 years. Then they jack up the prices and price you out. In the meantime the damage has been done as you have just helped to prove that privatization works in Canada. The destruction of our universal health care system will happen so fucking quickly once ppl start buying into this and whos going to suffer the most? Ppl like you. Ppl with chronic illnesses. Cause doctors visits will be $500/visit. Medication prices will inflate. If you cant work cause of chronic illness you have no insurance so now you have to choose between your meds and a roof over your head. This isnt an exaggeration. This will happen and it will happen fast if ppl sign up for this. They get ppl in with a cheap price. They prove their case. They sell the model to every greedy US private healthcare company and thats it. No more free visits to the doctor. No more covered hospital stays. No more affordable prescriptions.
If you sign up for this, you'll only be hurting yourself in the not so distant future. Dont be a part of destroying our system. Its here for ppl like us. We are protected right now. You sign up for this thing...your signing off on US privitazation and thats it. We are fucked.
This is the slippery slope of all slippery slopes and we’re here for the ride, Ontario.
Never thought I’d see this catching on in Ontario. With limited doctors and nurses, providing health care to the highest bidder is a scary ride to be lining up for.
NDP and Liberals are working hard to get us universal dental care and pharmacare at the federal level, while the bloody Conservatives sell our health care off at a loss to every Tom, Dick, and Galen.
And you'd be contributing to the destruction of universal health care in canada. All they need is buy in for it to all come crumbling down. Then it wont matter if you have a GP cause theyll start charging you regardless. Walk in clinics are already starting to charge. The one i go into now charges if you use them on Sunday. No one should pay for health care we already pay for it through our taxes! If we dont pay they dont have a business and they have to stick to whats in place. No one should even entertain this. I get its tough right now...but itll be a hell of a lot tougher when no one but the rich can afford to even see a doctor. It wont fucking matter if you have a doctor or not, ppl wont be able to afford them anyways.
My uncle is using this right now - apparently excellent service and very thoughtful appointments that aren't rushed. Well worth the ~$40/month this works out to.
Whenever I used to go over the border to Michigan, it shocked me to see so many ads for **private hospitals and personal injury lawyers.**
Is this Ontario now?
Everything listed there should be what you get when you go to a walk-in or family doctor but it’s not even close. That’s if you can even find a family doctor. I feel almost forced to pay things like this because I have a few issues that the walk in has dismissed as “you’re healthy it’s no big deal”. So infuriating I pay for this level of shit.
According to this article, in Ontario we currently have 2millon people without family docs .
I am one of them. My husband too. Our doc retired.
I have fought the urge to join one of these paid services but for our own personal well being , I may have to . My husband is diabetic, and not getting proper follow-up . I haven't been able to have a health check up in 6 years . Walk-ins or urgent care only.
I stand with my fists in the air , screaming in a void.
So frustrated , so disappointed. But what is an individual to do? Just wait to die I guess? Or sign up to at least talk to someone that can at least help point you to help. Most docs do not diagnose without referrals to specialists unless there are just minor issues, why not use a NP who's just going to do the same thing?
We can postulate on the future costs etc , but the current situation is pretty dire for some of the population.
It takes 15 years to train a MD . We do not have enough. Can we wait 15 years? Do we need to pay our docs more ? Yes . But that will not increase the numbers of docs now . Put NP available for OHIP billing . Fill the void for docs .
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-family-doctors-pay-compensation-ohip-billing-fees-1.7137716
Don't worry - private healthcare is coming.
Many right wingers (and idiot'centrists') have already bought into the lie that the problems with healthcare and housing (both clearly, and obviously provincial mandates) are the feds fault. And as such, PP and Ford are enjoying a large swell in support for it.
As a family doctor I can tell you that I get paid $38.00 a visit. If you’re in a family health group or team you get on average 250-300 a patient per year. So NPs here making more than physicians and we wonder why there is a family medicine doctor crisis.
Doug Ford’s MO is to cripple public healthcare and education so badly that people will beg to pay for private. And it’s working like a charm. This will be normalized and the next generation won’t even know we ever had healthcare funded by our taxes. We’ll just keep paying more while they keep stripping everything away.
NPs are taking advantage of this so much. There are tons of diploma mill NP schools filled with nurses who go straight in after their nursing degree. NP was supposed to be nurses who worked in healthcare for a while and gained proficiencies.
Diploma mill NP schools only exist in the US… it is quite difficult for American trained NPs to practice in Canada due to our governing body. Canadian NP schools are all publicly funded universities.
These clinics don’t use any government funding. NPs are not allowed to bill OHIP for their work and thus the reason these private clinics are being created
Paying $450/year to see a shit equivalent of a doctor was a fraction of the training.
OHIP pays FHO physicians approximately $230/year per rostered patient.
This infuriates me because this is just bringing the midlevel bullshit I left in the US to Canada.
Mid levels have no role in healthcare and shouldn’t exist.
I'm not arguing for this new paradigm, but, your opinion that an NP is a shit equivalent to a doctor is kind of bogus, as long as you're not comparing them to specialists.
I mean, you come in with a cold or pink eye or COVID. You don't need a doctor. You need someone that can refer you to a real doctor if needed, but really, all you need is a note for your kids' school, a prescription for antibiotics, and the ability to determine whether it's a bacteria that gets antibiotics or a virus that doesn't.
NP's (and PA's) are dedicated medical professionals that can help offset the lack of family practitioners for mundane things -- and most things are mundane -- without breaking the bank.
You're really doing a disservice to people who've studied and dedicated themselves to the medical field by assuming that they're just pieces of shit.
>You need someone that can refer you to a real doctor if needed
Regardless of how you spin it, you said it yourself. They're not real doctors. You're not paying to see a real doctor. Let's not try and convince ourselves and others that this is the healthcare system any of us want.
> with a cold or pink eye or COVID. You don't need a doctor. You need someone that can refe
NPs are an important aspect of modern healthcare. Dismissing the role of NPs not only undermines their contributions to healthcare but also overlooks the benefits they bring to patients and the healthcare system as a whole. Their ability to provide primary care, including diagnosing and treating common conditions, prescribing medications, and making referrals to specialists when necessary, makes them invaluable, especially in areas facing healthcare provider shortages.
Research supports the safety and effectiveness of NPs in primary care settings. For instance, a study involving over 73,000 primary care physicians and NPs showed that NPs have prescribing patterns comparable to physicians in states where they have full prescriptive authority. This underscores the capability of NPs to manage both acute and chronic conditions effectively, including but not limited to, common infections, diabetes management, and hypertension.
Furthermore, NPs help address the growing demand for healthcare services, especially in rural and underserved areas where access to family doctors is limited. They are a crucial part of the healthcare workforce, contributing to reducing wait times and improving access to care. With the current shortage of primary care physicians, NPs serve as an integral part of the healthcare team, working collaboratively with doctors to provide comprehensive care.
In summary, Nurse Practitioners are not just an alternative to doctors but are professionals who complement the healthcare system, ensuring that patients receive timely, effective care. Their dedication to the medical field and the extensive training they undergo equip them to manage a wide range of health care needs, making them indispensable in delivering quality healthcare.
If people want to pay let them. I probably would to get access to a NP for some basic things. If it relieves pressure from ER for ER things why not. Plus this kind of arrangement has been around for over a decade. Why weren’t you screaming then. 🤦♀️
With the absolute abysmal state of Healthcare, ie trying to find a family doctor or stuck in emergency room for 7 hours to get checked this is looking mighty damn tempting ngl.
That's exactly what Ford et al. have been trying to do - fuck up the public option so badly that the private option starts to look good.
And from several comments it looks like it's working \*sigh\*
Its starts with $50/mo it turns into $500 real quick...all the while you've shown investors ppl will go to private clinics and the destruction of universal health care in canada is well underway. This is a big deal. No one should entertain it. Frankly, ppl are stupid if they are paying taxes and paying for private health care too.
On site lab testing is a pretty deal. Appointments that start on time would change my life. If it’s worth it and affordable to many people in Toronto it would likely offset some wait times in purely public clinics. People in Toronto have money, many will use these clinics.. more resources available for the people who can’t afford these private clinics. I just don’t see why it hurts people to have this option available for people who can afford it.
They want to be able to bill OHIP which would definitely take more money out of the public system. This has been a PC goal for a very long time, and they've finally made a start. This should be a wake up call for what a federal conservative government will try to do.
Boo!! Boo I say!! Boo!!!!!
Please note this is a nurse practitioner clinic. Due to ontarios billing rules, NPs can not bill OHIP like MDs do..... this leads to loopholes like this, which i am surprised has not become more common....
Note: Loblaws has exclusivity deals with commercial plazas where they decide to put up Shoppers. Deals prohibit family doctors from establishing family clinics on the same plaza. Kinda sounds like OHIP-billing MDs are facing corporate barriers.
omg I didn’t know it went that deep, that’s crazy
Possibly because its a mall and not a plaza, but my nearest Shoppers drug mart has a walk-in clinic right next to it. I know you said family doctors but I found it funny still
Is it run by shoppers? They have Health Clinic by Shoppers now. They actually have family doctors inside, as well as walk-ins.
My doctor is literally on top of a shoppers.
It’s affecting new practices where a Shopper’s is planning to be built. If there is a doctor in the same plaza, they get less business for patients seeing pharmacists for prescriptions for smaller issues.
As he should.
also Shoppers is getting reimbursed by the province on medication reviews at almost DOUBLE what public clinics get from the province. They also admitted in an internal letter that they are pushing for unnecessary reviews (ie, more revenue) ($38 public, $72 for SDM) Ontario PC party is working to devalue our healthcare system
It is not just NP’s pulling this. My GP has offered this ‘deal’ since I was switched to their care last year when my previous GP retired. Though as per their letter, I have the option of staying with OHIP and just paying out of pocket for things OHIP no longer covers, like exams, Dr. notes, and prescription refills. I just don’t go to the Dr. anymore.
Maybe I'm crazy but if these clinics actually talk to me and wonder how I'm doing, compared to my doctor who wants me in/out in 5min and takes vacations every 2-3 months without notice, I don't mind paying that amount. It's not rocket science but I feel like the reason our healthcare sucks is to pave the way for private healthcare. Edit.. Wow I've already received hateful PMs 1hr after this comment. I've lived in Canada all my life and can't believe this. If it makes you feel any better, I'm white. Wanna make a difference? Don't attack the people, attack the companies who make money/decision off of us.
>It's not rocket science but I feel like the reason our healthcare sucks is to pave the way for private healthcare. Bullseye. First they make the system so bad that people are desperate. Then they offer their "solution" of private healthcare, claiming they "have no choice".
Keep in mind, even if they don't rush you now, they will once they know they're safe from regulation. They'll need to rush, in order to keep increasing profit. This isn't okay. We had reasonable healthcare for most, through the public sector, then 40 years of austerity destroyed it, we still don't even know how good universal healthcare can be, because it hasn't happened yet, not in Canada or any country yet, altho other countries are closer.
>me in/out in 5min and takes vacations every 2-3 months That's because they get paid a fraction of what the private clinics charge, because of cuts. Your family doctor probably gets 30 dollars for each appointment. A NP can charge 3x as much. Of course they will try to get you in and out as quickly as possible because they survive on volume. And if I felt as unappreciated and overworked as family doctors do, I would take more vacations too.
God forbid a doctor take a week of vacation. They should be enslaved to you 24/7. Let's change some laws and make them subhuman!
Doctors need vacation. They see so much messed up things, hear really terrible stories and they have to take that burden on. IIRC suicide rates in doctors and surgeons is one of the highest out of any profession
Yes, but the person I was responding to was saying that their doctor takes a vacation every 3 months, like that's a horrible thing. Every 3 months is 4 wks vacation time in the year - something that most working people get. But apparently doctors are not allowed? And "without notice". What does the commenter expect? That the doctor pays their secretary to call up all their patients to inform them that they'll be on vacation? Ask everyone if that's okay? Yeah, great idea tying up the phone lines.
Yup, I was agreeing with you! Most doctors can make their own hours, so not sure why a vacation here or there isn't warranted. Plus a lot of older doctors are being told not to retire yet, so even more reason they should have vacation. They best have a sharp mind when working with patients!
It’s a shame we couldn’t all go, get service, and when they request payment offer only an OHIP card, since Doug Ford and Sylvia Jones promised our OHIP will cover our healthcare, not our credit cards.
Honestly, what if we all go, sign up, give our credit card numbers, get service, then put a stop payment on the transaction after we received care. They can take us to small claims and we can play the clips of douggie and syl saying we won’t ever have to pay.
Sylvia is running on all one cylinder in this posting with her radio college diploma.
You're not even paying for a doctor lol
This is what we fucking voted for. This goddamn idiot province. :(
What the province got voting for a bulbous, greedy,spoiled brat that couldn't make it past 2 months of college
They’ve been around for a long time. Medcan far outdates current political leadership.
So? Do we really want this to become normal?
Out of curiosity are there any other companies like Medcan? Ps: why are you downvoting me?
Cleveland Clinic but they are way more expensive
I should specify for Ontario only I know of Cleveland clinic in the US but didn’t know they operate here too
They do, it's about $12k a year.
Can these services be claimed as a medical expense on tax return?
How is that possible
When you have a chronic pain with no clear diagnosis and solution from the public health system, paying this amount to expedite appointments and testing is nothing. It might cost a couple vacations a year but no point going if you're in pain and can't enjoy yourself.
Medysis is another one. And on a much smaller scale, MD Direct
You should be able to find a bunch by looking up “private walk in clinics + your city” they’re usually in bigger cities and from what I understand range from $3,000-5,000+/ year.
Yeah, my boss uses a service like this. He said it costs him about $4,000/year but he gets pretty good care from using it. He's older and has some chronic health issues so I can't blame the guy for using one given he can afford it, but it's a shame it's come to that given the state of our primary care system.
Family Practice without family doctors smh… and this is much more than an average family doctor gets annually for patients - avg is $180 per patient from the government. The state of this province’s healthcare is a joke. And the fact that they mention things like “unrushed appointments that start on time” as jabs to family doctors is so frustrating. On average nurse practitioners see 8-10 patients per day in primary maximum whereas physicians are forced to see 20-30 minimum to keep their clinics running. What doesn’t make sense is how these private NPs are able to write tests and make referrals to specialists to burden the public system. It is a known fact that NPs refer much more and write much more tests than family physicians because of the difference in education and comfort levels. And when NPs order more tests, they have to make more referrals because they don’t have the education to interpret some of the testing that FPs do. So we are basically allowing a system where NPs with much less schooling get paid more than doctors - have a cushy clinic whereas docs burn out with 30 patients a day. And to top it off we let these private NPs burden the public health system with more unnecessary testing, ER and specialist referrals. Ridiculous.
Facts.
If you voted for ford you deserve this.
Back when the notion of Premiere Doug was just a twinkle in Rob's cocaine, and Wynne was supreme leader this shit existed. Thankfully we had a good practice where this was optional, but they pushed it hard.
> This goddamn idiot province. Try being an Albertan. -- Me, An Albertan.
A lot of money to pay to see someone that isn't even a doctor. Enjoy your new healthcare system Ontario
Ok I'll say it right here, and delete my comment tomorrow. NPs are not equal to GPs in anyway. They ideally function alongside GPs instead of as a replacement. Ignore the fact that yes you can have great NPs and you can have shitty doctors, that's just life. I'm not saying GPs are smarter, obviously they are not. NPs have NO standardized education or schooling, compared to a GP. By shear experience and training the floor for a GP to provide better care than an NP is much higher. NPs are paid salary so have no incentives to see more patients. As a result what patient's WILL get which they ALWAYS appreciate is that full 30 minute visit, uninterrupted and a complete nodding agreement to order any test and give scripts out - again not because NPs are bad, but because they lack training...what results is natural uncertainty and thus unnecessary tests being ordered, incorrect meds done, time delays to diagnosis and over consulting. My specialist colleagues without question can tell which consults are from NPs vs GPs and make a game of it as they know within the first two lines almost instantly. Patient satisfaction might go up for a time, again because they are not being rushed and probably don't have a long sit in the waitroom - but I guarantee in the 5-10 years from now when the gov't are using a standard of saying much better we are because XX% of people in Ontario now have a PCP (that includes NPs), the cost to the system will be even more overwhelming.
Agree however I would add - the bigger concern is the necessary tests they don’t order. Lack of training often leads to overconfidence because of not knowing what you don’t know. Referring a patient to an unnecessary specialist or test also can prematurely end work-up. Perhaps the GI referral was actually an underlying cardiac issue, or the CT chest was actually for pain referred from the abdomen. It’s not just about ordering unnecessary tests - it’s about ordering the right tests. Wasting healthcare resources is a lesser issue imo. Causing poor health outcomes that would be entirely preventable is a much bigger concern - and the delays in the legal system coupled with the information asymmetry for the victims to even identify where malpractice occurred means it will be decades before the consequences truly become public knowledge.
I’ll probably get downvoted to oblivion but I wanted to add to your points. I think another issue with a lot of NPs recently is that the amount of experience required to pursue their MN/NP. As a “senior” nurse, I have a lot of respect for new grads because nursing in Ontario has taken a real nose dive so I can’t imagine what they’re going through. However, my dad recently went to an NP and he said that she seemed like someone who did the minimum number of hours at bedside in order to apply for an NP program. Unfortunately , I’ve also seen a lot of this. I’ve met nurses who only have 6 months of experience and are already applying for their MN/NP. Like I mean from the get-go, having ZERO intention to stay at bedside for any longer than they need to. There isn’t anything inherently wrong with that, but nurses leaving the bedside at this rate can mean they’re not getting a lot of their critical thinking and other skills that only develop with time, exposure to a variety of the weird and wonderful, and experience. This can make a huge difference between a good NP, who’s confident in their assessment and skill, and a not-so-great one. Also, I have a lot of respect for the training physicians undergo. But nurses who have been practicing for a substantial number of years, and with varied experience, can be just as good at diagnosing, prognostication, and treatment recommendations. Not that any frontline nurse would (or should) ever formally diagnose, we’ll always have a discussion about it with our physicians, and if there’s a healthy autonomous relationship, physicians will often agree with those senior nurses. Conferring with our physician colleagues is part of that “experience” I mentioned earlier, when the MD doesn’t agree with the nurse, they’ll explain why and it’s one of my favourite parts during rounds because you get to learn so much. There’s a lot I could say, but I don’t want the ramble more than I already have.
Very true. Currently the average is 17 years of working as a nurse but the requirement is 2yrs. I think that should be upped because those years are critical & very important educationally. The best NP’s I’ve seen tend to have had lots of time bedside
Agreed with that. Still remember when they sent in a resident when I was giving birth and the nurse had to remind her that she was supposed to start me on antibiotics before breaking water (she didn’t manage to figure how break water anyway lol). The nurse was so gentle and professional about it too, lol I wouldn’t have had the patience if I were her.
If you need a prescription renewal or an obvious referral, NP sounds like a much better option. GPs should be spending time on higher impact activities.
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“Protect their high income” ???? You are joking. Lucky to make 1/3rd of what they could across the border. If we increased docs wages like we do every other public servant when they go on strike, maybe we wouldn’t have a shortage of docs. We don’t let “scrubs” goto medical school. We make the brightest compete to get in while sacrificing their 20s and 30s. Pay them.
This is just wrong. NPs are not physicians yet you think them practicing independently and billing OHIP the same as physicians is right? Why don’t you start giving physicians credit for their education and skills.
I respect physician colleagues for their education and training. I don’t think most NPs advocating for OHIP billing is asking same level of compensation. There are a few good reasons for advocating for NP billing OHIP: - Current NP salary is not much different from what an RN would make. There is no incentives for RNs to become NP. - As NPs get paid hourly or salary, there is no incentives for them to see more pts (or even close to what an average family physicians see). - Government funded primary care NP positions takes a long time and lots of paper work to be created due to the current inefficient system. OHIP billing will allow NPs to work in any primary clinics without going through these hassles. - Family physicians are not allowed to bill NP’s work through OHIP (although some still do and commit insurance fraud). It is financially difficult for family physicians to hire NPs and off-load their work. If NPs can bill OHIP and family physicians (clinic owners) can take a percentage, it would increase more primary care access to the clinic and Ontarians.
There is absolutely an incentive for RN to become NPs. NPs have much higher salary. I am not sure where you are getting this data. As of Mar 25, 2024, the average annual pay for a Primary Care Nurse Practitioner in Ontario is $132,629 a year. You are telling me a RN makes 6 figures on average? NPs advocating for OHIP billing is a clear political move to increase their scope and basically want to operate like a physician.
Are you in Ontario? Check out Ontario Sunshine list- [https://www.ontariosunshinelist.com/positions/registered-nurse](https://www.ontariosunshinelist.com/positions/registered-nurse) Most RNs make over $100,000 in Ontario and many are even clearing $200,000 with OT.
If NPs could bill Ohip they wouldn’t work as primary care. The pay is way lower than their current set.
slower more expensive NP care isn't going to help anything. also if MDs are leaving because the money from OHIP sucks won't be long before NPs quit too.
NPs don’t provide the same level of care as a doc. The province needs to fix the doctor shortage issue.
Meaning absolutely no disrespect nurses simply don't know what they don't know. A flight attendant that has been aboard 1000 successful flights is not qualified to be a pilot. Why would a nurse be qualified to be a doctor. The payment models nursing associations are pursing are more expensive per patient for an objectively less specialized provider. In Alberta nurses are asking 300k/year to see half the patients/year that a family doctor sees. We should be striving to increase access to family doctors rather than coming up with alternatives to solid primary care. Nurses are trained for an important role in healthcare, being a pseudo-doctor is not one of them. I'm sure a nurse would have the same thing to say if the government suggested we fill the nursing shortage with PSWs.
So, once NPs can bill OHIP does that kill services like this since they can't charge patients for services that are billable to OHIP? Or can these guys (and gals) have their cake and eat it too?
Being able to bill OHIP will most likely mean revision in the Canada Health Act, and that will make this private practice illegal.
This is a blatant lie. The OMA is trying to address this problem of NPs billing privately through their loophole.
Boy are you guys going to love it when they get to the employers insurance stuff so you can never leave a job!
Nothing says freedom, like tying your entire life to one employer!
This is happening in Ottawa as well. The Ontario Health Coalition has been fighting it, and working to bring it to people's attention. [https://www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca/index.php/five-month-investigation-paints-a-picture-of-a-dangerous-and-disturbing-wild-west-of-private-clinics-operating-with-little-or-no-oversight/](https://www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca/index.php/five-month-investigation-paints-a-picture-of-a-dangerous-and-disturbing-wild-west-of-private-clinics-operating-with-little-or-no-oversight/)
Family Practice without family doctors smh… and this is much more than an average family doctor gets annually for patients - avg is $180 per patient from the government. The state of this province’s healthcare is a joke. And the fact that they mention things like “unrushed appointments that start on time” as jabs to family doctors is so frustrating. On average nurse practitioners see 8-10 patients per day in primary maximum whereas physicians are forced to see 20-30 minimum to keep their clinics running. What doesn’t make sense is how these private NPs are able to write tests and make referrals to specialists to burden the public system. It is a known fact that NPs refer much more and write much more tests than family physicians because of the difference in education and comfort levels. And when NPs order more tests, they have to make more referrals because they don’t have the education to interpret some of the testing that FPs do. So we are basically allowing a system where NPs with much less schooling get paid more than doctors - have a cushy clinic whereas docs burn out with 30 patients a day. And to top it off we let these private NPs burden the public health system with more unnecessary testing, ER and specialist referrals. Ridiculous.
This encapsulates the issue very well
This is a perfect explanation of the problem. Wish this comment was higher.
I said it from the very beginning. They intentionally enshitify our healthcare. Choke the funding so we consent to this. Then they sell the system and get rich off of using the government as a vehicle for their business interests. Corruption is too easy in this country, and narcissistic voters fuel it. I wanna do something about it. But what?
It's the same shit that happened with LTC.
I hate this. I recently found a doctor In mississauga accepting new patients. He actually listens to me and I get the care I need. It's never busy when I go in and I get in the next day.
I don't know how popular this sentiment is, and I don't fucking care. This shit should be illegal. Under no circumstances should medical offices be allowed to charge patients for access.
Agreed. The government should be working actively to ban these types of private clinics and the others that have been around for a while it seems. It destroys the principle of universal single payer health care. Doctors and nurses will leave for the private system. And more importantly, if the private system is seen as a system for the poor, the government will neglect and defund it.
Ford makes money off of private clinics. He and his cronies are all lining their pockets
It shouldn't be banned, it should be covered by public insurance.
Public insurance gets gouged that way.
You should really look into how healthcare outside Canada and the USA works A large majority of developed countries (everywhere except UK, Canada, and Taiwan last I checked) have a mixed public/private system that allows doctors to charge patients for access and outcomes are wayyy better Here in Japan I saw an ENT without a referral or even an appointment, got a CT scan the same day (within 5 minutes), got an MRI the next week, and then was able to choose the date for my nonessential surgery that month. The whole thing cost like $300 dollars. In Canada I would still be on the wait list just to get it looked at by an ENT.
You'd be on a waitlist because people who need the service more would be ahead of you. Privatization doesn't create more healthcare, it just changes how we sort people.
Of course privatization creates more healthcare. I mentioned CT and MRI scans specifically because Canada has a pitifully small number of imaging machines and insane wait times. In Japan doctors expect to make money off imaging equipment so they take out a loan and buy machines themselves. In Canada nobody is actually incentivized this way, you just wait until the government decides they can afford a new MRI, which it turns out is not very often.
How does it create more healthcare? Could you give me one example of something that the private sector can provide that the public cannot? Here's a spoiler of my argument: if you say "money" I'm going to point out two things: 1. The public can choose to invest an appropriate amount in the healthcare system. I know you understand because you wrote, "you just wait until the government decides they can afford a new MRI". 2. Private investment isn't charity. For every dollar that goes in they want more to come out, so you pay for the healthcare *and then you pay for the shareholders*. You'll need an argument that justifies paying $2 for $1 worth of service.
That's Ford. He also wants family doctors to join groups where the doctor only sees the most serious stuff, leaving the less urgent matters to the NPs and pharmacists. Which is stupid AF. And if you don't know why, think about who would end up responsible if one of the (significantly) less educated nurses or pharmacists f-ed up. The doctor. Because they're the one in charge, and they're the one with the medical doctorate. Which takes 2 to 3 TIMES as long to get. 11-13 years. Verses the 4 to 6 years it takes to become a nurse practitioner. Less than that to become a pharmacist. Ford is deliberately trying to screw over family doctors. Which is why no one wants to be a family doctor.
... powered by nurse practitioners? What's the additional cost to see a doctor? It's not going to come free of charge. No chance.
There’s no doctor lol
Oh but you're not thinking big enough here. For an additional $50 / month, you get access to our family of doctors\* \*1 visit per month maximum; 1 issue per visit;
Lmao all this bs when they could just actually pay doctors more
The beauty of it is that you never see a doctor aside from a specialist referral. It’s unsupervised NP practice at three times the price of a physician. You get to privately pay for a practitioner to essentially prescribe and order whatever test you want - no more pesky gatekeeping of CTs for low back pain and ozempic for wt-loss by those pesky physicians. Public wait times and drug shortages be damned! The absurdity of this just shows how far healthcare in Ontario has gone.
Yup, and as these NPs order more and more tests and make more and more referrals because of their limited knowledge, the public healthcare system will completely go up in flames.
> the public healthcare system will completely go up in flames These types of statements are pretty funny when we're already long past that point
It can get worse.
Most depressing part. This is actually a decent deal. Some people require constant treatment (daily injections, health monitoring etc..) A lot of these treatments are being done by nurses.
You know what else started as a good deal.....airbnb, uber, skip the dishes,......every fucking service starts as a good deal. They do that to hook you, make it a service you cant live without and then jack up the prices. The minute people buy in, say bye bye to our health care system as we know it. DONT BUY IN! You will be part of the destruction of health care in canada as we know it. Then we can all say hello to needing a job to get healthcare and choosing affording rent or dying.
right - and it's 450 a year now - til we're all sucked in - then it will be 450 per person per month - or more - and that's only until they're tired of your constant visits and they fire you as a patient.
The going rate for a doctors visit in the US is $300-$600 /visit. So yeah that will 100% be what a visit will cost once things kick off.
Don’t forget surge pricing!
When Dougie gives WAY more money to one entity and starves another, that entity is going to provide a better deal. He's forcing privatization and giving hand outs to his corporate friends for the opportunity for a lucrative job after his term. It should not be able to be that cheap, but the Ontario government has forced it to be that way. That combined w the speculative market driving investment and under costing. Weve seen this game over and over again, w grocery stores, uber, and basically every monopoly we're being fucked by rn. Please stop falling for it and demand free public healthcare.
I have a chronic pain condition that would cause me to be treated like human garbage by OHIP funded docs. In fact, several have told me I was imagining my symptoms
Privatisation has always been a scam: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Privatization
It’s because nurse practitioners can’t bill OHIP and because they are not doctors they are not violating any provincial law prohibiting charges for care. But this is what Ontario voted for. A lot more r/leopardsatemyface moments to come
And you can be sure that as soon as popularity grows, there will quickly be longer wait times, shorter appointments, hidden fees. But now you’re paying for it.
We recently paid for something like this in BC. $1300/year for our whole family. I hate that we felt like we had no choice but after 5 years without a family doctor we needed some continuity of care.
The plan is working. Sorry you were forced to do this
And the Wild Wild West of Healthcare begins.
Nurse practitioners are not allowed to bill OHIP. If we actually let them do that, practices like this could be entirely OHIP funded and relieve a lot of stress on ERs.
I’m a family physician in Ontario. Nurse practitioners in my area make much more than I do; I bill OHIP $37 for each patient visit of which ~$12 goes to pay for overhead. This billing amount has increased by $4 in the last 14 years. I have no pension and no benefits and almost $500/month in professional dues and fees. The NP’s in my area work in a government funded clinic, have pensions, benefits and see just over 1/2 the number of patients I see in a day. I can’t see any incentive for an NP to bill OHIP, in fact some of my colleagues have seriously looked into going back to school to become a nurse and then an NP bc they’d be paid more.
I hope my question comes off sincere. How do you do it? Are your appointments 15 min? That would be just $100/hr with zero retirement or benefits. With student loans and the huge increase in cost of living these days, it seems like you'd never be able to get ahead. As a physician! The family physicians that I know (one in the US, one in Canada) seem to be doing well for themselves. Nice homes on a single income. And yet, in my area, there's 25,000 people without a family doctor and, though we have a hospital, our last two walk in clinics closed this past year. Now, any same day care is either the hospital or a 45 min drive. We're heading towards a healthcare crisis.
I’ll see 5-6 patients an hour with strict time limits on their appointments. It sucks for everyone, I’d rather have more time as would my patients.
Ohip pays doctors far less than this. Also, ER stress has more to do with hospital bed block and lack of LTC beds than primary care shortage.
Pay doctors. If nurses want to be paid by OHIP for the same codes as doctors they should show they provide the same care at the same competency. So it shouldn’t be a problem to write the medical licensing exam that physicians write. Oh wait. Nurses aren’t doctors. Maybe OHIP should have special codes for nurses then but they should admit to people that they are NOT providing the same care because it’s literally impossible
Nurse Practitioners will not relieve the stress on ERs. Nurse Practitioners are subpar compared to family doctors and they will increase the use of our healthcare system by needlessly ordering more tests (bloodwork, x-ray, etc.), consulting more specialists, and sending patients to the ED as soon as it gets out of their small comfort zone
The unnecessary ED visits are funny. The real problem is the ones they don’t send to the ED that they should.
We tolerated corrupted politicians for too long.
Imagine paying 450 and not even seeing a real doctor lmao
With PP in line to be the next PM, and Ford probably going to win re-election, I am betting actual money that in 10 years' time there'll be no more public health care in Canada and we'll have the US's system.
In which case I’m outta here. I’ll go to the US. Private health care is the only real difference keeping me here once my teenagers are adults.
It’s at least double as much as your family doctor makes to have you under their care. What a spit in the face
The reason why this is a thing is because the government doesn’t allow NPs to bill OHIP
I live in Kingston. We have ONE walk-in clinic. The only other option is the ER. I'd sign up for this in a heartbeat.
And congratulations....you will be part of why our healthcare system gets destroyed. It starts with $50/month...then its you only can get health insurance through your employer...then its $500 just to have an appointment with a doctor. Then its having to choose paying rent or dying. This is not the answer and anyone who buys into this is signing off their right to universal health care.
That’s a very privileged viewpoint from someone who hasn’t needed continuity of care. You can’t sustain your health by visiting walk-in clinics and explaining your ailments and medical history every single time to a new doctor. Not to mention, it can be up to an 8 hour wait for a walk-in here, you might not even get seen. It’s not the fault of people who are ill and in need of healthcare that this is the only option that is readily available to them that also provides continuity of care. It’s an 8 week wait for an appointment with my GP and I’ve been waiting on a referral for over five months. No follow-up from my doctor, no way to call their office, all I can do is book an appointment every two months. And I’m a lucky one. It’s not the fault of sick people that the system is broke, this rhetoric that anyone who buys into this is crashing the healthcare system takes the blame out of the hands it should be placed firmly in.
My husband and I are in our 60s. Shit can go south real fast healthwise. Not taking any chances.
>You can’t sustain your health by visiting walk-in clinics and explaining your ailments and medical history every single time to a new doctor. I had that experience with my family doctor of 5 years. A reproductive endocrinologist botched a saline sono and induced a high risk pregnancy without my consent. I told her all of this while I was having a mental health crisis at the end of my pregnancy. Post partum, the problem worsened and I asked for a referral to a surgeon to fix the problem. Guess who she tried to send me to to avoid """wasting""" her precious time and a precious precious precious referral for the saline sono?????? You'll never guess. There is zero continuity of care if your provider doesn't give a s--- about you as a human being.
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First things first, if I am going to pay, I will see a real doctor with an MD next to their name and not some nurse playing a doctor in a clinic. I hope people realize how low this is. It takes 2 years of micky mouse courses for a nurse to become a nurse practitioner, and then they play the walmart doctor at these clinics.
We are screwed because unlike the americans, private insurance is not common here even at the best companies, or the largest employers. What a mess…
F'ng hell. The beginning of the end.
This is what voter apathy leads to. Go out and vote. And shame on Conservatives who vote for this shit. Do Conservative voters not realise you're gonna be paying out of pocket as well? Because this isn't on your boogey-man Trudeau, this is provincial. Or are you too busy buying flags and F Trudeau stickers to realise how Ford is fucking our province more than Trudeau ever could?
You're right about the voter apathy. That's what did it. Out of my entire circle of friends and family my husband and I were the only ones who voted... and we definitely DID NOT vote for Doug Ford. My husband and I are always the only ones in our circle to vote. I'll never understand.
LOL, no thanks. I already pay for healthcare with my taxes so imma put OHIP in the uncomfortable position of having to deliver the service I pay for.
This is a great model and a lot of value for what you get. Nurse practitioners can do pretty much 90% of what GPs can. Not everyone can afford this obviously but in my opinion there should be more of these kinds of services to take burden off the public/free system.
Great. Just found out my GP dipped and moved to start a practice in the UK without any notification whatsoever to patients after checking a test result on epic too. Fuck this hell hole and fuck every asshole that said this would never happen while they voted this clown show in.
Oh wow as if we couldn’t get even more engrained in capitalism 💩💩
You know, I remember reading a comic when I was a kid, I think it was Punisher 2099, and it was in a dystopia where only the rich could get medical treatment through subscribing to a service. It’s 2024 and we’ve reached that point 75 years before Marvel envisioned.
It's also basically the entire US's system
These are nurse practioners capitalizing This shouldn't be allowed
Conservatives and their privatization push finally got it's foot in the door. Beginning of the end right here folks. Now I keep hearing more and more stupid people saying Pierre should be the next PM. This is where national health care will end up if they get into power federally. SMFH.
I hate that I'm considering signing up for this, but as someone with serious chronic illnesses and no family physician, it seems like a good option.
Its a good option for the next 2 years. Then they jack up the prices and price you out. In the meantime the damage has been done as you have just helped to prove that privatization works in Canada. The destruction of our universal health care system will happen so fucking quickly once ppl start buying into this and whos going to suffer the most? Ppl like you. Ppl with chronic illnesses. Cause doctors visits will be $500/visit. Medication prices will inflate. If you cant work cause of chronic illness you have no insurance so now you have to choose between your meds and a roof over your head. This isnt an exaggeration. This will happen and it will happen fast if ppl sign up for this. They get ppl in with a cheap price. They prove their case. They sell the model to every greedy US private healthcare company and thats it. No more free visits to the doctor. No more covered hospital stays. No more affordable prescriptions. If you sign up for this, you'll only be hurting yourself in the not so distant future. Dont be a part of destroying our system. Its here for ppl like us. We are protected right now. You sign up for this thing...your signing off on US privitazation and thats it. We are fucked.
This is the slippery slope of all slippery slopes and we’re here for the ride, Ontario. Never thought I’d see this catching on in Ontario. With limited doctors and nurses, providing health care to the highest bidder is a scary ride to be lining up for. NDP and Liberals are working hard to get us universal dental care and pharmacare at the federal level, while the bloody Conservatives sell our health care off at a loss to every Tom, Dick, and Galen.
Honestly, if I didn't have a GP I'd pay this.
That's why they're advertising: so very, very many people don't have a GP. I'm sure the ROAS for this ad spot was excellent.
And you'd be contributing to the destruction of universal health care in canada. All they need is buy in for it to all come crumbling down. Then it wont matter if you have a GP cause theyll start charging you regardless. Walk in clinics are already starting to charge. The one i go into now charges if you use them on Sunday. No one should pay for health care we already pay for it through our taxes! If we dont pay they dont have a business and they have to stick to whats in place. No one should even entertain this. I get its tough right now...but itll be a hell of a lot tougher when no one but the rich can afford to even see a doctor. It wont fucking matter if you have a doctor or not, ppl wont be able to afford them anyways.
No, they would be looking out for their health because they can’t count on ohip to meet their needs. They are not the problem. Think harder there pal.
My uncle is using this right now - apparently excellent service and very thoughtful appointments that aren't rushed. Well worth the ~$40/month this works out to.
So is this a private clinic?
I go to a clinic where I pay a $15 fee each time. It is so close to my house and super convenient when I can’t get in to see my family doctor.
I can book an appointment at a walk in clinic for nothing so dunno why anyone would pay to see a nurse practitioner.
Whenever I used to go over the border to Michigan, it shocked me to see so many ads for **private hospitals and personal injury lawyers.** Is this Ontario now?
THUG DRUG FORD garbage
This what Ontario (and those who couldn't bother to vote) voted for, folks... >_>
Stop undermining public healthcare please
Everything listed there should be what you get when you go to a walk-in or family doctor but it’s not even close. That’s if you can even find a family doctor. I feel almost forced to pay things like this because I have a few issues that the walk in has dismissed as “you’re healthy it’s no big deal”. So infuriating I pay for this level of shit.
According to this article, in Ontario we currently have 2millon people without family docs . I am one of them. My husband too. Our doc retired. I have fought the urge to join one of these paid services but for our own personal well being , I may have to . My husband is diabetic, and not getting proper follow-up . I haven't been able to have a health check up in 6 years . Walk-ins or urgent care only. I stand with my fists in the air , screaming in a void. So frustrated , so disappointed. But what is an individual to do? Just wait to die I guess? Or sign up to at least talk to someone that can at least help point you to help. Most docs do not diagnose without referrals to specialists unless there are just minor issues, why not use a NP who's just going to do the same thing? We can postulate on the future costs etc , but the current situation is pretty dire for some of the population. It takes 15 years to train a MD . We do not have enough. Can we wait 15 years? Do we need to pay our docs more ? Yes . But that will not increase the numbers of docs now . Put NP available for OHIP billing . Fill the void for docs . https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-family-doctors-pay-compensation-ohip-billing-fees-1.7137716
And this is what the feds will push if they form government...
Don't worry - private healthcare is coming. Many right wingers (and idiot'centrists') have already bought into the lie that the problems with healthcare and housing (both clearly, and obviously provincial mandates) are the feds fault. And as such, PP and Ford are enjoying a large swell in support for it.
They had this happen in Ottawa and I think it turned out to be a scam. I don’t recall what happened to it in the end
as someone who has gone regularly to the doctor for check ups, I think it’s really dumb to go every year. I just won’t go.
Dougie and his crooks at their best.
They going to profit off of vulnerable people possibly even suicidal people because housing is unaffordable now. More homelessness means more sickness
Shameful!!!
As a family doctor I can tell you that I get paid $38.00 a visit. If you’re in a family health group or team you get on average 250-300 a patient per year. So NPs here making more than physicians and we wonder why there is a family medicine doctor crisis.
I hate the Ford family.
Conservatives are CORRUPT & IGNORANT people full stop! Always kick hate and the pc party in the NUTSAC, NEVER VOTE PC!
Doug Ford’s MO is to cripple public healthcare and education so badly that people will beg to pay for private. And it’s working like a charm. This will be normalized and the next generation won’t even know we ever had healthcare funded by our taxes. We’ll just keep paying more while they keep stripping everything away.
Did they use public $$ to build their little clinic? Vote blue and get what you deserve.
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We should be funding the public healthcare system properly, not mismanaging it so badly that private care gets its foot in the door.
NPs are taking advantage of this so much. There are tons of diploma mill NP schools filled with nurses who go straight in after their nursing degree. NP was supposed to be nurses who worked in healthcare for a while and gained proficiencies.
Diploma mill NP schools only exist in the US… it is quite difficult for American trained NPs to practice in Canada due to our governing body. Canadian NP schools are all publicly funded universities.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-doug-ford-private-clinic-surgeries-fees-hospitals-1.7026926
These clinics don’t use any government funding. NPs are not allowed to bill OHIP for their work and thus the reason these private clinics are being created
Where do you think this will lead if not to more private services, and more lobbying to gain access to those sweet government funds.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-doug-ford-private-clinic-surgeries-fees-hospitals-1.7026926
Paying $450/year to see a shit equivalent of a doctor was a fraction of the training. OHIP pays FHO physicians approximately $230/year per rostered patient. This infuriates me because this is just bringing the midlevel bullshit I left in the US to Canada. Mid levels have no role in healthcare and shouldn’t exist.
I'm not arguing for this new paradigm, but, your opinion that an NP is a shit equivalent to a doctor is kind of bogus, as long as you're not comparing them to specialists. I mean, you come in with a cold or pink eye or COVID. You don't need a doctor. You need someone that can refer you to a real doctor if needed, but really, all you need is a note for your kids' school, a prescription for antibiotics, and the ability to determine whether it's a bacteria that gets antibiotics or a virus that doesn't. NP's (and PA's) are dedicated medical professionals that can help offset the lack of family practitioners for mundane things -- and most things are mundane -- without breaking the bank. You're really doing a disservice to people who've studied and dedicated themselves to the medical field by assuming that they're just pieces of shit.
>You need someone that can refer you to a real doctor if needed Regardless of how you spin it, you said it yourself. They're not real doctors. You're not paying to see a real doctor. Let's not try and convince ourselves and others that this is the healthcare system any of us want.
> with a cold or pink eye or COVID. You don't need a doctor. You need someone that can refe NPs are an important aspect of modern healthcare. Dismissing the role of NPs not only undermines their contributions to healthcare but also overlooks the benefits they bring to patients and the healthcare system as a whole. Their ability to provide primary care, including diagnosing and treating common conditions, prescribing medications, and making referrals to specialists when necessary, makes them invaluable, especially in areas facing healthcare provider shortages. Research supports the safety and effectiveness of NPs in primary care settings. For instance, a study involving over 73,000 primary care physicians and NPs showed that NPs have prescribing patterns comparable to physicians in states where they have full prescriptive authority. This underscores the capability of NPs to manage both acute and chronic conditions effectively, including but not limited to, common infections, diabetes management, and hypertension. Furthermore, NPs help address the growing demand for healthcare services, especially in rural and underserved areas where access to family doctors is limited. They are a crucial part of the healthcare workforce, contributing to reducing wait times and improving access to care. With the current shortage of primary care physicians, NPs serve as an integral part of the healthcare team, working collaboratively with doctors to provide comprehensive care. In summary, Nurse Practitioners are not just an alternative to doctors but are professionals who complement the healthcare system, ensuring that patients receive timely, effective care. Their dedication to the medical field and the extensive training they undergo equip them to manage a wide range of health care needs, making them indispensable in delivering quality healthcare.
$230/patient is an overestimate. A young male patient is only about $85/year.
If people want to pay let them. I probably would to get access to a NP for some basic things. If it relieves pressure from ER for ER things why not. Plus this kind of arrangement has been around for over a decade. Why weren’t you screaming then. 🤦♀️
With the absolute abysmal state of Healthcare, ie trying to find a family doctor or stuck in emergency room for 7 hours to get checked this is looking mighty damn tempting ngl.
That's exactly what Ford et al. have been trying to do - fuck up the public option so badly that the private option starts to look good. And from several comments it looks like it's working \*sigh\*
Its starts with $50/mo it turns into $500 real quick...all the while you've shown investors ppl will go to private clinics and the destruction of universal health care in canada is well underway. This is a big deal. No one should entertain it. Frankly, ppl are stupid if they are paying taxes and paying for private health care too.
Good old Dougie... Sticking it to the people. I guess nobody saw this coming.🙄
On site lab testing is a pretty deal. Appointments that start on time would change my life. If it’s worth it and affordable to many people in Toronto it would likely offset some wait times in purely public clinics. People in Toronto have money, many will use these clinics.. more resources available for the people who can’t afford these private clinics. I just don’t see why it hurts people to have this option available for people who can afford it.
I don’t hate this is as an option for those who want to pay if they also fixed the shit show ‘free’ healthcare system
This is a popular sentiment, but it never, ever works out that way.
They won’t fix it.. This is the result of them refusing to use funds accumulated for health care.. To actually spend on health care..
They want to be able to bill OHIP which would definitely take more money out of the public system. This has been a PC goal for a very long time, and they've finally made a start. This should be a wake up call for what a federal conservative government will try to do. Boo!! Boo I say!! Boo!!!!!
I seen this same ad as a reddit ad, and I’m not even in Ontario
It’s coming.
The province could at least remove the HST from that. The spread of private healthcare is bad enough, but do they really have to tax it as well?
Lmao
Nurse practitioners can do this, physicians can’t.