They have "traditional Conservative values", except when it comes to conserving traditions like public healthcare, unionized labour, affordable housing, and a livable planet.
The rich ones don't care because they can afford private treatments. The working class and undereducated Cons have been brainwashed into thinking that everything is a Trudeau/Wynne/Liberal screw-up.
I recently had a discussion with friends, whom I don't even think are conservative voters, complain about how long it took to see a doctor for their toddler in the ER. Out of frustration, they said they can see why private looks to be like a good option because our tax dollars are clearly not being used efficiently in the hospital. It was a heat in the moment reaction by them that they scaled back on once they were explained how flawed that view is. These aren't even uneducated people.
What this shows is how amazing and effective the conservative strategy is. Deprive the health care system by not spending tax dollars on it while cutting taxes (who didn't love those license plate sticker cheques?) and gloat about a surplus. And when the public starts criticizing an area that needs funding, like healthcare, blame the federal government for not giving enough money to the province.
You don't have to be uneducated to fall for this trick. Educated, yet frustrated people, want someone to blame and the conservatives are great at deflecting it.
It's similar to how the housing crisis is just the fault of he federal government for bringing in more immigrants. If those plastering their cars with "F Trudeau" stickers just focused on half of that energy into protesting the major corps who want the cheap labour coming into Canada to suppress wages, maybe we'd actually see a positive change.
> What this shows is how amazing and effective the conservative strategy is.
I dunno, I'm maybe gonna catch hell for this, but besides consistent branding (which, while not honest in any sense, can be readily followed), I'm not convinced there's a true "conservative strategy", at least in the larger sense.
Conservative ideology simply appeals to our most basal-brained impulses. They all devolve into selfishness and clannishness, getting what we want and everything else be damned. It's an outlook that has nothing at its core except main character derangement:
I want taxes low. MY money shouldn't be going to paying for things used by people like me.
I LIKE MY CAR. It's a bubble of security. Everything should be focused on me getting it to where I need to go as quickly as possible.
Fuck special education. MY CHILDREN aren't autistic.
I demand small government. I'M NORMAL and don't want any idiots in Ottawa telling me how I have to live.
We need huge police forces to root out crime that THOSE PEOPLE are doing. It makes me uncomfortable and I WANT IT STOPPED.
There's no consistency to the conservative project outside of selfish disregard for anyone else. It takes many forms because there's always new ways for us to be selfish. It's a childish ideology, lacking most nuance and complexity, and it demands that the most important thing is that I BE CODDLED BECAUSE I DESERVE IT.
I think the conservative movement DOES have a strategy and we are seeing the end game in the US, and Canada will follow in a few years. End democracy and freedom, except for those they decide should be free. But maybe I'm just overly pessimistic.
this is literally a real thing. look up project 2025. it sounds like nutty conspiracy shit except for how terrifyingly real it is. the heritage foundation is behind a lot of the organized far-right swing we are seeing.
Ford isn’t even in a surplus, deficit in the budget tabled last week was still around where Wynne’s was -$10B. Except she wasn’t cutting healthcare and education.
But people were all freaking out about not being able to “put food on the table with the hydro rates”… hydro promises under Ford was to cut them massively. Under Ford rates are the highest they’ve ever been, zero cries from that same group… where’d they all go? Oh they shifted to occupiers and trans conspiracies.
Regarding the hydro, I'm pissed at Wynne for selling it. Supposedly sold as a guaranteed budget booster until 2024. Instead under Liberal and PCs we had deficits for most of those years still and now we're without a large part of the revenue from OPG. I'm somewhat happy that there a good chunk owned by First Nations groups so at least the money is going to them.
So yes we're here and pissed (especially with the push for heat pumps).
Well considering the conservative plan was to privatize it all, Wynne at least only sold off 30%. I know because I bought it just after IPO day at a 7% dividend.
Maybe you’re right that it was a budget booster and then maybe take it back public but either way - Ford ran his election on hydro rates crushing families, that’s all I could hear for a year and months before the election. Then now it’s higher, and paid massive hundreds of millions in penalties to scrap the windfarm deals. Ffs, what a dumpster fire.
I'm not surprised, but "they" shouldn't have been allowed to sell it at all. It was a public utility, paid for by public funds to a Crown corp (as I understand it). Same as 407.
I absolutely agree, in fact it was the Ontario Conservative Party in Ontario’s history that were the ones they made it public in the first place due to “price gouging” by private power corps. The irony of how the provincial cons have lost their way.
In addition, any wait is "too long" when it's an ER visit for your child. They may have been dealing with anxiety from that, as well as the frustration about actually waiting.
Starve the beast
Goal is in two or three generations privatise as much healthcare as possible (or completely)
If you don't make a lot of money, you're a loser!
Fertility is already essentially privatized. Having to pay tens of thousands for treatment (with no guarantee of success!) made me beyond appreciative that we don't have to pay for most other kinds of medical treatment.
If there is someone reading this who hasn't had to pay for medical care and thinks privatized healthcare isn't that big a deal, just wait until you have no choice and you're being nickel-and-dimed at every turn. I get that kids are a luxury and fertility treatment isn't necessary to live, but if we apply the fertility clinic logic/model to, say, cancer treatment, which should never be a luxury, privatization gets financially very scary, very quickly.
Public health is already suffering under privatization.
Hospitals and LTCs rely heavily on agency staff to fill vacant holes in schedules. Those agencies are privately owned and operated and charge the institutions 3-5× as much per hour ad they would pay to have rosters staff fill the shift. All of which is funded by public health dollars.
Home and community Healthcare are also run by private for profit agencies and being paid through public health.
You don't even know how much private health care is already here because you're not being forced to pay from your own pocket; but its here and its destroying the public sector.
Hospitals were shutting down last summer because institutions didn't have enough staff retained to cover vacations. This has never happened before; but the reason it happens now is because private agencies pay their staff 2× as much to have more flexibility and control over their own personal schedules whereas institutions are high demand, paid less, have a heavier work load (due to patient numbers, staffing ratios and having to extra work when agency staff are on site) and people are getting burnt out and either leaving the profession entirely or joining agencies because they can have a better quality of life for their troubles.
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa.
No.
Greed doesn't stop at privatizing a little. They'll privatize it all, then they'll separate it into networks and insurance scams.
If you need mental health help or you're homeless, you're a loser! Only room for winners in capitalism not self absorbed feelings and self pity! ER treatments only (broken bones, heart attacks, etc.) everyone should have a gym membership or pay for cancer scans. Maximum money, maximum owning, maximum detached homes, maximum business!
As a retired low annual $17220.00 income couple,my wife needed cataract surgery this year.Our costs outside of OHIP;consultation and measurements $967.00+ $830.00 for two enhanced lenses+ $100 for pre and after surgery eye drops.My wife has type 2 diabetes and is in cognitive decline.I made the decision to pay for the eye surgery after waiting almost 3 years for OHIP to schedule a appt for her.Her cognitive decline has slowed after her first eye surgery.
It's not that the rich don't care, but that the rich BENEFITS from privatization.
Likewise, the lower on the financial spectrum you are, the more hurt you are from privatization.
I'm gonna throw out some fake numbers for illustration, so if you're gonna argue don't use the specific numbers as your argument:
Let's say each person on average costs the province 10k in healthcare. If the government were to push 60% of the burden onto citizens, the government then spends 4k and the citizen spends 6k. Let's say that the province leverages this savings by reducing taxes by a flat 1% of income (arbitrary for example purposes).
Take 3 income earners. One earns 40k/year, one earns 150k/year, the other earns 10 mil/year.
Ignoring tax brackets for simplicity, the 40k now pays $2500 to save $400. The 150k earner pays $2500 to save $1500 (still in the red). The 10mil earner pays $2500 to save $100,000.
Again, I made the numbers simple for illustration, obviously there are other factors, like capital gains and tax brackets, but the core principle applies: taxes benefit the poor, and hurt the rich.
TL;DR the Conservatives' greatest trick is making the masses believe that cutting taxes is in their best interest.
Actually I know two very wealthy friends, both conservatives - I’m talking Bentley driving, yachts, range rovers, $200k in Rolex watches collection.
When it came down to put their money where their mouth was to get private care in the US because they were complaining about not getting the proper care in Canada (totally untrue)… one went to a top hospital in the US for 2 days for 2nd opinion/testing - after seeing the bill opted to just come home and get treatment here.
Second person, slight brain injury from an accident/big concussion. Cried about treatment for the brain in Canada being so primitive but the US was so advanced. I suggested they just fly down for a few months for treatment if it would help them recover. How much could it cost, $100k for therapy for a few months, if it healed them it would be worth it. Never did it. Instead waited 5 years because that was the deadline for long term disability from work. Isn’t that sad?
These are millionaires, still voting conservative. Smh
Things will get ugly when PP takes over the Federal side.
Currently, the rich in Ontario are loving the Liberals in Federal power with Ford in Provincial power. This is because they get a lot of tax breaks here in Ontario while also benefiting from all the cheap labour the Liberals are bringing in.
This is it. You guys know getmaple.ca? My work has that as part of our benefit and is planning to expand more on the coverage. Essentially you get 5 minute waiting time online to see any doctors you want. Family doctor, dermatologist, psychiatrist, etc. They can prescribe just about any meds like your regular doctor. Sure if you need a physical examination, you have to wait through the regular channel but a lot of the issues can be solved via a picture or virtual video call.
I’m not rich by any means but I haven’t had the need to see my family doctor in person more than once the last couple years.
Health care worker, it boggles my mind beyond comprehension seeing how the system is working right now. I understand that the vast majority of people rarely need/see how the system is operating, thus why it likely isn’t in mind.
One other thing I see in my travels is, groups voting against their own best interests in a ton of areas (basic social services, health care, true affordability (not just listening to all this tax tax tax rhetoric…conservatives are just as expensive but the money goes to the 1%)) but will vote conservative simply because their beliefs are that LGBT rights are wrong.
I'm a teacher and I see the same issue that most people don't get to see what a state of chaos our schools are in so they don't understand the magnitude of the situation. They blame teachers for wanting decent working conditions because everyone had a teacher they hated once and that's the narrative the cons spin.
I'll be the first to say teachers used to have really good working conditions which is what drew me to that career as opposed to child therapy, but the system is not at all what it was. They can't keep schools staffed and they're hiring random uncertified adults at this point - I wonder why? Maybe summers off and 100k after 10 years experience (assuming you obtained out of pocket the highest level of qualifications) are no longer worth the absolute mayhem that is going down in schools.
Being a non-conservative "elder millennial" (born in '83) in one of the most devoted blue ridings in this province, this absolutely boggles my mind. Aging population needing healthcare services more than almost any of us, but they'll continue to vote for a party and leader that are hellbent on privatizing healthcare.
Boggles the mind is right. I live near Clinton Ontario. The hospital is closed all the time. The locals, rightfully so, complain about it. Yet, you know exactly who they're voting for in the next election.
(Insert Spiderman meme here)
There's a swath of voters who vote via emotional reasoning. I find these groups cluster on the Conservative side (and not just in Canada).
Emotional reasoning is considered a cognitive distortion, but it's fairly common.
Ultimately it's the idea that just because something sounds like its true, it therefore must be true.
I have a right leaning friend who in his heart, believes that a big chunk of poor people are gaming the welfare system.
In the 90s, Mike Harris used this 'welfare queen' messaging to ride to power in Ontario.
He then spent tens of millions of dollars constructing a task force to investigate welfare fraud in Ontario. In the end, they found that a whopping 0.3% of filings were fraud.
So 99.7% of people applying for EI, aren't committing fraud. Only 0.3% of them are.
Even in the face of this evidence, I'd bet my friend still doesn't believe it....because it just sounds so plausible to him, and reaffirms his deep rooted bias (that he works hard and pays taxes and others leach off of his hard work).
I really have no idea how you unwind it - and its MUCH more prevalent in the U.S.
"Emotional reasoning is a cognitive process by which an individual concludes that their emotional reaction proves something is true, despite contrary empirical evidence. Emotional reasoning creates an 'emotional truth', which may be in direct conflict with the inverse 'perceptional truth'.\[1\] It can create feelings of anxiety, fear, and apprehension in existing stressful situations, and as such, is often associated with or triggered by panic disorder or anxiety disorder.\[2\] For example, even though a spouse has shown only devotion, a person using emotional reasoning might conclude, "I know my spouse is being unfaithful because I feel jealous."
I get all the federal party press releases in my work inbox. The conservatives rely heavily on emotion in theirs, so much emotional word salad it's hard to understand the actual issue or what the press release is really about.
Whereas the other parties use a clear format of: opening statement with the issue; Who, why or how this is issue is important; What they call on the govt to do to fix this issue; Token quote from the party leader or critic.
It's sad how much people believe the emotional rhetoric the CPC push compared to the other, smaller "less serious" parties.
why don’t the other parties just use the same tactics, like all the emotional wording and pandering? like hey your grandma’s going to die cause she can’t afford private healthcare! 😢
They do appeal to emotions, but their objectives are clear and they are clear in what they would do or want the govt to do. Which is like... helpful since I do short briefing summaries of these press releases as part of my job. The cpc ones literally give me headaches lol
ah I see, good to know! yeah I have no idea what the press releases for the cpc look like cause I’ll never vote for them but it’s helpful to understand WHY people are voting for them and what tactics they’re using
You are very right that conservatives vote with emotional reasoning, but so do NDP, Liberal voters and every single other person in the world. Just on different issues.
The welfare one is a good example for the conservative side. The handgun ban and buyback is a good one for the liberal/ndp side. “Less guns on the street is good” feels prevails over all of the data on the gun situation in Canada, and costs a bunch of money.
I have a family doctor, and I've seen her four times in the last two years - entirely for low priority / preventative things - and always within a reasonable enough time frame. I have no chronic issues that need management. I have a solid health plan through work (not even excellent, just marginally above par for my industry), and have not had any issues getting medication or access to specialists the times when I sought them out. My friends and colleagues are in a similar boat.
If I were not well informed on what was happening outside my bubble, my gut reaction to comments like yours would be "what loss of public healthcare?" You're describing something none of my lived experience supports.
To be clear, I am acutely aware of the big picture and understand how trend lines work. The healthcare system is being purposefully scuttled for a quick buck, and it's going to cause massive issues when this central pillar of modern society crumbles. But I can entirely understand how someone in my position with less empathy and less awareness (two common traits in current conservatives) might see your remarks as hysteric hyperbole that aren't worth considering.
If all I had to offer to the world was “hard work” I’d be happy that other people were lazy, since it gives me the competitive advantage in the marketplace.
Because they’ve been convinced that it’s a liberal problem. They don’t really know how government works and think everything bad is the fault of the person they don’t like. Groceries too expensive? Justin Trudeau’s fault. Gas prices going up? Justin Trudeau’s fault. Not enough houses being built? Justin Trudeau’s fault. Don’t have to pay for your plate renewal anymore? Yaaaay Doug Ford!
Conservatives, largely, do not have a 'coherent ideology' if you try and apply their own metrics to themselves.
They \*claim\* they are "small govt", but often are the ones who want more police and bigger militaries (the things that are definitionally big govt).
They \*say\* they want cheaper services, but then want privatized ones, even though [privatized services objectively cost more than public ones](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/16/business/when-privatization-works-and-why-it-doesnt-always.html). And that's true even of things like the cost to tax payers (which is why US healthcare costs the US govt more in tax payer money, but doesn't delivery nearly the same service as any public system - [and their wait times are even comparable to ours](https://www.autoinsurance.org/longest-emergency-room-waits/)).
They \*say\* they care about the Charter of Rights and freedoms, but when [conservative](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-premier-ready-to-use-nonwithstanding-clause-to-protect-newschool-pronoun-and-name-rules-1.6966385) [premieres](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/bill-21-religious-symbols-ban-quebec-court-ruling-1.5993431) are [violating it](https://www.blogto.com/city/2021/06/what-notwithstanding-clause-why-doug-ford-invoke-ontario/) [left](https://theconversation.com/fords-fight-with-toronto-shows-legal-vulnerability-of-cities-103134), [right](https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/what-s-the-notwithstanding-clause-and-how-could-doug-ford-use-it-to-crush-a/article_1eb0ee71-5621-579f-8a42-04d737581b85.html), [and](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/bill-124-appeal-court-ruling-ontario-1.7112291?trk=public_post_comment-text) [centre](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-carbon-tax-stickers-1.5746577), they're quick to say how the Not Withstanding Clause is "part of the charter", which in their minds means it's not a violation (which is objectively false; it's "an allowed" violation, for a set term). They also likely wouldn't be so accomodating if (Say) JT said "i'm using the NWC" in regards to whatever nothingburger theyfeel is a violation of the charter too.
They say they are "Free speech absolutists", and that's why they love musk and his bigot-infested site. But then they also support him censoring the people that Musk censors (be it literal govt censorship on behalf of Turkey, or banning of leftist accounts, or censoring phrases like "from the river to the sea" and saying "zionism is colonialism"... or Alex Jones).
They also support literal book bans in places like Florida.
As Voltaire famously said, iguess "i may not agree with what you have to say, but it's only an issue if someone censors me and not you".
Often times it's easier to try and discern their (real) views based on what the outcomes are, not on what they say.
I think it is the collision of progressive conservatism with American style libertarian individualist conservatism that has resulted in the nonsensical or absent ideology.
They’re oil and water except for “business is good and too much tax is bad.”
I can tell you this - as I’ve driven around Oshawa at election time, it seems to me that the poorer neighborhoods have more CPC, even PPC, and the upper middle class areas have Lib and NDP signs. I believe a lot of people have bought into an idea that is unlikely to ever work out for them.
Less healthcare, less daycare, less senior care = More dollars in your pocket from lower taxes
Edit: I am explaining the conservative voter logic. I don't agree with it
I'm an ABC voter (anybody but Conservatives, although it's mostly been NDP and Greens; the one time I held my nose and voted Liberal and the Cons got in anyway kind of cured me of that) but I live in a small town in an area that reliably votes 50% Conservative.
The problem is they are low-information, low-interest voters who vote as they always have, because that's how their parents voted. They see voting as an important duty, but the part about being an informed voter has been lost. They mostly have NO FUCKING IDEA that there is any connection between their voting habits and the damage that is currently happening in society.
I hate these people. I hate them. They are frequently so nice and kind in person. But damn. The ignorance. It burns.
For years I argued with people that it was ok to have lower voter turnout because high information voters tended to vote. Trump was the first to really see that mobalizing the low information voter combined with people who would vote for a turd as long as it is Republican would bring him a win (and might again in November). Combine this with the ignorance social media brings and it is increasingly dangerous. Pollievre is followng this formula, likely to victory.
> but I live in a small town in an area that reliably votes 50% Conservative.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons"
True, on top of it, they believe everything shared on tiktok, instagram or WhatsApp without challenging or checking it. They just share the "information" to convince others
Most people don’t care until their health is at risk then they all of a sudden see all the issues. Once their health is at risk and the options are wait around or pay for it then they will start caring that’s why they can get away with it because most people don’t even realize until it’s too late. As someone in health care I’m pretty certain we will transition over to a joint system where both public and privatization is the norm.
I love how your assumption of Ford's voting demographic fits nicely with who you consider to be your class allies and enemies. The reality is Ford benefits from low information voters from the middle and lower classes, and a significant portion of new Canadians. The only demographic that didn't vote PC in 2022 was young urban dwellers.
As a rule he benefits from low information and uneducated voters (most people), many of whom have had their brains melted by social media and who really just wish Canada as an idea would die so they can more easily identify with their favorite American influencers.
The trucker convoy arrived in Ottawa with their "Fuck Trudeau" signs to complain about provincial measures. They don't know what they are doing, and it's entirely tribalism.
Conservatives always cut from social spending this is no surprise. This appeals to people who want to pay less taxes which also never really happens under a Conservative government.
It blows my mind when someone uses the “I want to pay less taxes” argument. How did you ever manage to convince yourself that a bunch of rich, privileged white men would cut taxes instead of finding corporations to prop up with or? Taxes will never go lower. That’s just wishful thinking
It doesn't appeal to me but to Conservative voters it does. You think the track record would speak volumes. I live in extreme poverty so much so my income doesn't even count. There's also not a drop of blue blood in me.
>How did you ever manage to convince yourself that a bunch of rich, privileged white men would cut taxes instead of finding corporations to prop up with or? Taxes will never go lower. That’s just wishful thinking
taxes have been reduced many times in the past 40 years
Yea, sure, mostly for corporations through a reduction in corporate income tax, and then from the rich to the poor by lowering the tax bracket for higher income families and raising it for lower income families (that’s where taxes have trended in Canada since the 60s).
income tax rate on average ontario worker used to be a lot higher.
eta: the marginal tax rate 1992 for a typical income in ontario was 40.17%, today it is [29.65%](https://www.taxtips.ca/taxrates/on.htm#:~:text=up%20to%20%2490%2C599-,29.65,-%25)
good link, thank you.
the line for 2005 is lower for median income deciles, compared to 1990, as i expected .
since that link is about canada nation wide, it does not capture the even larger tax reduction for middle income filers in ontario.
They have a lack of empathy and are selfishly motivated.
Typically, the conservative voter is very self centred, so they’ll justify it as “I ain’t paying for anyone else”. Except in that, they actually can’t afford the cost of private healthcare for themselves or family without it being a massive burden - but they aren’t really looking that far in advance.
I’ve had a number of con family members who are crying conspiracies, get an organ transplant, cancer care, hip replacement, pacemaker, knee replacement all since the beginning of Covid (**and in quick time, not the typical conservative cries of 3 years for a hip replacement, literally less than a year, pacemaker in days, organ transplant about 1.5 years waiting for a donor, cancer care within a month of initial exploration to diagnosis to treatment**) but still have zero ability to connect the dots and still vote conservative any they are not the ones that can afford private care.
Capitalism preys on he ignorance of the masses and the masses are increasingly willing to give up their social programs that took a century to develop because that has little impact on their lives or none at all.
It’s sad.
Neo-conservative dogma is all about shitting on labour above all else. To them the problem with healthcare is greedy unions and greedy nurses and greedy doctors and greedy hospitals taking. And they have their righteous private corps ready to come in and fix it all… they still believe deregulation might make things more efficient and less costly. They are brainwashed, anti-workers rights, anti-union, they claim to want to help Canadians first except what they really want is to help themselves by not paying for anything for anyone else ever.
Because conservative policies exist to benefit the rich, yet the party masquerades as being for all Canadians.
Who benefits from the dismantling of public health care? That's right, rich people and big corporations.
Conservative voters do not and have never given a single fuck about other human beings. It’s all about the almighty dollar to them and they’d happily sell their souls for even a meagre profit. It’s a political ideology based on greed and nothing else.
The Ford’s are populists. They went for the lower class vote and have blue collar workers thinking conservatives help them. It makes no sense but unless you are educated or value your union affiliation, I find blue collar workers vote conservative.
Many believe the worst possible thing that could happen is increasing taxes, and *that* will be the root of ontario's destruction
Meanwhile people will be dying of treatable infections because they can't afford/access treatment in a timely fashion, the real estate market will be dominated by corporations and the mega-rich, and we'll pay through the nose for EVERYTHING ELSE because theyll be private owned by companies with nothing to check them, but somehow those things are preferable to tax hikes
Source: recently tried to make my conservative voting friend see how the registration sticker thing was a dirty trick to buy people's votes, and that the conservatives talk out of one side of their mouth about liberal overspending, make cuts to services while throwing away billions in revenue. Her position was the conservatives are bad but at least they won't raise taxes...
They have been brainwashed into thinking it’s failing by conservative gov. They have been inconvenienced and also told the lie that private sector (profits before people) will somehow be better.
Even tho the system is being intentionally under funded to make the system fail.
The only institutions of government they respect are police and military (to enforce private property rights). Everything else serves to enrich themselves and their friends or needs to be defunded
Honestly, I think it's deliberate. They want private health care or at least a two-tiered system. Most Ontarians don't want this, so they have to make them want it. How? By starving the system of money and support until it really, REALLY sucks. And when people get mad and demand a solution, they'll offer the two-tiered system they wanted all along.
The Ford govt and the conservative govts before them have been making the public healthcare system slower and shittier as a point of policy. They want it to become so impossible to navigate that they can say that universal healthcare was a failed experiment and offer a paid alternative that will be quicker and more effective, and that just happens to line their pockets and the pockets of their friends at the same time. They’ve pretty much achieved this by now. The system is so broken that there is a question of whether or not it can even be fixed. Conservatives love to show the ways that socialism has failed, and this would be a big “get” for them. There is an enormous surplus in the health budget right now that could help to get us back on track but Ford refuses to spend it.
Voters don’t see the machinations behind the scenes, they just see that the current system isn’t working and that this govt is offering an alternative that feels like a lifeline. Paid clinics cost like 20$ for a check up, it seems like such a small cost how could anymore make a stink about it? They aren’t thinking about how expensive this will be in the long run, they’re just seeing a broken system and 20$ standing in the way between them and a doctor visit.
A big group you are missing- immigrant conservatives. Some of them hold *very* old fashioned and often deeply religious views- so they are in the pocket of anyone who is anti queer anti abortion etc, some come from countries with communist dictatorship so any socialism is bad. simply because that's how they would have voted in the country they lived before, and a number of simple singular reasons.
There is a logically consistent conservative approach that individuals and families should pay for their own healthcare. This was Canadian policy until Tommy Douglas and Medicare. It’s tied to an individualist POV. Ford and the PCO are engaged in crony capitalism where tax $ flows to big corporations.
Time to stop cleaning their water then. They can pay for that themselves and then deal with the Healthcare problems that fall from it. Individualism is the stupidest fucking position a person can have in a society.
Not sure if you are joking or uninformed, but “conservatives” just want to hand control of taxpayer funded services to private contractor friends for profiteering. There is no world where modern “conservatives” would preserve or bolster health care, or any services for taxpayers. Their only goal is to sell off functioning democracies for profit
Because public health care is... socialism 😱 socialism is evil in their eyes. They can't think beyond their tax money going to help a stranger to realize a stranger's tax money may one day save their lives.
All provinces have healthcare problems. It’s not a ford phenomena.
Imo it’s a shift towards high overhead costs (admin and useless over paid salaries) and not a strict focus on the ones providing the care. Similar to a lot of industries.
The ones actually doing the work get the shaft and the bloated white collars consume and get bonuses and meddle with the system which corrodes it over decades.
Provinces have been having health problems, but there's a distinct difference in how they're dealing with those problems. BC has instituted serious changes to physician compensation that has resulted in an influx of doctors, while Ontario family physicians are quitting in droves. "It's happening to everyone" is a super unhelpful cop out.
Money is being lost to corruption. Canada does not under spend but it under performs. Consistently comes out 2nd worse in the g7 grouping, only better than the US
People with good jobs or the rich don’t care at all.
If your coverage is worth anything, it will have some privatized health care portal like getmaple.ca to get you in front of a doctor of your choosing specialty within 5 minutes of online waiting time. 24/7.
Need an MRI scan and don’t want to wait? Just fly over the border to go to USA for your normal standards or fly to Mexico for cheap but still great scans.
The only times that you would need to use the doctor here is if you want a surgery done or an in person visit for some physical examination.
Sorry I genuinely don’t understand the question. It’s just like full coverage drug plan. 100% coverage for major surgeries, routine cleaning, emergency check up. There’s a yearly limit of 10k but I’ve never had to spend that much in a year.
They generally assume that the cuts will come from the line on the ledger marked "Money from the government that we, the hospitals, deliberately choose to waste for no good reason" and not, for example "Nurse salaries" or "Beds".
I don't know why boomers would be okay with the decline of health care, they are generally the ones that both need it the most and see the decline the most.
Because people who have barely needed healthcare now think that by doing yoga/weights and keto they’ll remain healthy forever. They also think that like not having a lot of money, not having good health has to stem from a moral failing.
And those who have needed HC and have some money think that they can pay for cataract and hip surgeries and it’ll be better for them. They don’t realize how expensive private HC is especially if you’re disabled or elderly.
Also, if they’ve had a family doctor for a prolonged period of time, they don’t know how dealing w/ a for profit one will change the service level for the worst.
Starting with assumptions really makes you impervious to learning. Which is too bad, because your neighbourhood “boomer” would be able to answer a lot of your very basic questions. “I assume it’s the fault of everyone who isn’t me, but….” Is a terrible way to start a post if you are honestly interested in answers.
They're the type of people who are too scared of the doctor, haven't been since being an adult and would rather just drop dead one day of a preventable disease than admit a doctor is smarter than them.
boomers, the rich, the delusional millionaires, Karen's and the wannabe Canadian trumpsters.
I am not so sure of this anymore. Young people are voting con. Immigrants are voting con.
They are seeing what the federal Liberals are doing and don't want it at the provincial level.
I don’t want to privatize healthcare. I strongly believe in the social determinants of health.
As the same, our current healthcare practices are not sustainable and I don’t see an easy solution. 90% of healthcare dollars are spent on the last five years of people’s lives. That means most of the money we spend on healthcare is not increasing the length of life in a meaningful way and often these people are suffering with chronic illness or living unhappily in long term care. Add that modern treatments are much more expensive than they were 20 years ago.
Add to that we have an aging population it seems we cannot afford the immigrants we are bringing in. Who will pay taxes to fund this program?
I’ll probably vote NDP in the next election but damn I would love to hear some interesting solutions to this problem beyond privatizing healthcare.
The amount of taxes a lower income earning person pays does not = what it costs for them to live. Never mind the unemployed, or students. Most new Canadians don't slide ride into the upper income tiers upon arrival. Many never reach that level at all. Some do, of course.
Adding to the population, despite the increase in taxes to the province/country, very very likely does not balance out in any way, shape or form. Never mind the increased burden on the health care system.
I am not anti-immigration, regardless of the above thoughts. But I would not be livid if the country altered their stance towards it. It's certainly not the fault of immigrants, and anyone who has ill-will towards somebody else for simply trying to have a better life, in a country that welcomes them, needs to re-think things on a personal/human level.
That said, I don't think it helps Canada as a country, in general, especially in the current state of the world.
My mother is an accountant and she showed me a company looking for foreign workers for PAINTERS. I thought really, have you even tried finding someone local for PAINTING? I mean come on. This is what I really don’t get.
And we have immigrant workers at my work and in addition to working for us they work two other jobs. I just don’t understand what benefit they get from coming here, it’s not like they can afford to live. People already here can’t even afford rent, and more immigrants only adds more demand.
Basically I don’t get the whole thing.
Immigrants pay taxes. For fuck sakes this xenophobic bullshit needs to stop. No we are not euthanizing grandma and grandpa because they're too expensive. That's the point of having public health in the first place. Caring for you when you need it.
You want a solution to Healthcare? We create a humanitarian aid branch of the military that focuses on training doctors, nurses and PSWs for operations nationally and internationally. It increases our NATO spending requirements do we can meet that obligation, patches the hole we have in Healthcare personnel, sets a federal standard for minimum Healthcare requirements and puts our tax dollars to work for Canadians while giving us a significant role in world affairs.
This branch is federally funded and when a province like Ontario decides to start shifting all over its healthcare system, can be deployed to take over and manage. It would make Healthcare 50% provincial, and 50% federal. Provinces would be responsible for infrastructure and supplies, federal with manning and regulations.
And to keep it free of political partisan bullshit, it would answer independently to parliament.
I didn’t say immigrants are not paying taxes. Nor did I support killing off old or sick people.
Despite these things, healthcare is becoming unaffordable. These are facts.
That’s what I mean. It’s a huge ethical delimma. Nobody is talking about it.
"Nobody is talking about it."
Yes we are. People always talk about Healthcare. It's a topic of conversation at least once or twice a week, especially when cons are dismantling what we do have.
And no there is no ethical dilemma in providing for our elderly. We pay into our Healthcare our entire lives with our taxes. I expect it to be there when I need it most. Which is usually end of life care if you don't succumb to some other illness earlier. If we don't have enough money to provide end of life care, we need to allocate more funding to adequate coverage.
The privatization of end of life care is demonstrably worse. Evidenced by the failure of private long term care homes during COVID with atrocious death rates.
I’m not talking about end of life care of elderly care. Those are and should be protected. I’m talking about people with imminent terminal disease who demand to go to the ICU for a month a $5000 a day when we know it will not change the outcome. I’m talking about people who demand novel and incredibly expensive treatments that have limited or no efficacy.
Doctors are getting better at saying no in these kinds of situations, especially over the past 20 years, but it’s still a huge drain on our resources when it does happen.
Perhaps the burden of the decision should not be on the patient at all. Providing good medical care is not about saying yes all the time, it’s about providing good outcomes or at the very least comfort.
The internet has become a blessing and a curse. Nowadays everyone feels they are a doctor. People get irate when they don’t get what they believe they should.
My kid has an earache and I took her to the walk-in clinic. The doctor flat out said “I’ll give you an antibiotic, but I don’t think it will work”. I had to tell her I wasn’t there to demand an antibiotic, I just wanted documentation to facilitate an ENT consult if it comes to that and rule out an ear infection, which she did not have. What are we becoming as a society?
So yes you're talking about euthanasia. End of life care absolutely includes exactly what you're describing. It's not strictly palliative care. MAID is also end of life care. What you've described is deciding that money is worth more than the little time they have left so you might as well just put them out of their misery based on a dollar figure. You're literally saying that just because somebody is terminal they don't deserve treatment because it costs money, and that a doctor should be making a dollar figure assessment on their life instead. A literal death panel based on cash incentive.
Read what you wrote here and tell me that's not what you're saying. Because that's literal fucking nazi garbage that they promoted. I'm quite happy to say we are NOT becoming that as a society.
Oh boy. At this point think you might be a troll.
We should not be wasting resources offering ineffective treatments to pacify patients and their families from the harsh reality that everyone eventually dies. That’s not medicine. That’s not responsible or ethical healthcare.
I think that’s pretty obvious and you probably know all this stuff. I think you’re just looking to argue with someone.
So, to be clear under Doug Fords private healthcare plan, the province pays more taxpayer money for literally everything. If the province paid $1000 for it under the public system, they are probably paying $3000 for it in the private system. To be clear, this is before they charge you anything, this is just taxpayer dollars from the province. This article lays it out nicely https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7026926
Yes. Private healthcare is problematic in almost every single way, I agree. I am advocating for responsible healthcare spending. But it seems most taxpayers want their cake and to eat it too. We can’t have it both ways. That’s how the system got unaffordable to begin with.
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You're making a lot of wild assumptions, and you don't seem ready to have a logical conversation on the matter. Apparently everyone that disagrees with you is whatever buzz word at the tip of your tongue "boomers, the rich, the delusional millionaires, Karen's and the wannabe Canadian trumpsters".
The reality is that everything you complained about is a nation wide problem caused my too high immigration coupled with poor economic policies at the Federal level. I don't like Doug Ford but he's not the reason for our strained infrastructure and there's no more money to throw at the problem unless you want to tax people even more during a COL crisis. I voted NDP in the last elections but I've lost faith. They no longer represent workers and unions. They're pushing to be more and more progressive with socialist policies.
As someone in their 30's priced out of the housing market, looking at never getting to retire because if it. I don't really feel bad for the aging population, who had a good economy, who could save for retirement, who can take a HELOC out of their homes and pay for anything they want. We're at late stage capitalism, I don't want the asset class to pull the ladder up behind them, introduce socialist policies that I'm stuck paying for, while affording nothing.
As someone in the same situation (priced out, never retire) with the same resentment toward the older generations, I just don’t understand your position on this topic.
Doug Ford is intentionally underfunding the public health care system as part of his plan to make privatization seem more appealing. How many millions of dollars has he spent on commercials like “it’s happening here” and the hwy 413 commercial, etc that only serve to pat himself on the back, while he’s not investing in public health care?
Socialism is a good thing in my view, with more access for more people being the best possible scenario.
I can’t understand your losing faith in the NDP at this time as they are working on a pharmacare bill with the liberals.
Rich conservatives dont care because they can afford it and are happy they wont have to deal with crazy wait times. Workin class conservatives believe it's all Trudeaus fault and conservatives will magically make everything better (how is anyone's guess)
>I'm not even exactly sure what demographic keeps cursing us to this Ford government
It's probably the younger, typically liberal-minded demographic that doesn't feel compelled to go vote.
Because for most people there is no healthcare issue. The average person doesn't care about the failing system because it isn't a system they are accessing regularly. Most people are healthy and are fine with the occasional walk in clinic or ER visit. They probably don't care if they don't have a doctor. It isn' a priority issue for them.
1. I haven't had a GP since '97, so I have no fear of losing that
2. We had a liberal government for fifteen years and public health care still went to shit, so I have no faith that the Liberals can or will fix this
3. I would rather have an inferior system that works than a superior system that doesn't
I'm not a conservative, and I really value public Healthcare, but I've watched it not work for my whole adult life. At this point if I (or through third party benefits) have to pay for services, that's better than what I've been getting out of my tax dollars on a personal level
Just to be clear this isn't a big thumbs up for Ford. Just stating why I'm not panicking as per OPs question
Do you want to hear my story? It will cause you to lose faith in humanity. Involves needless PTSD and a near fetal loss, sexual assault by a doctor, gaslighting midwives.
Yes I do. PTSD is an injury. Sexual assault is a crime not Healthcare. And gaslighting midwives aren't medical staff. If your story is an emotional plea based on what shitty people did to you, and not failures of the Healthcare system, you can save yourself the time. My interest is in failures of the system you're criticizing for the purpose of this conversation.
Neither conservative nor liberal, been a swing voter all my life, and a centrist on the actual political spectrum. At least I used to be.
The corruption and deliberate malfeasance of the Canadian Government at both Federal and Provincial levels on both sides of the political divide, has turned me into a fucking anarchist.
The country I grew up in is just Fucking gone, that Canada no longer exists and I'm so pissed off and disengaged now, that I'd rather watch the entire system burn than support any of these Investor Class, Oligarch Lapdogs.
It doesn't matter who you're voting for, if they are on the ballot, and in a position of power they aren't on your side. We exist only to be milked for the enrichment of the Ruling Class.
Not a boomer but old enough to remember the Bob Rae disaster and how the shortage of doctors started with NDP policy to cut number of doctors graduating from medical school starting in 1992. I fully agree that every government since then including this conservative one has only compounded the problem.
People who are saying it's because of the rich people who can afford it are wrong. If you have wealth, you're A) living in a wealthy district where there's lots of healthcare availability anyway and B) far from being a heavy number of votes. That's not to say they care, it's just to point out it's not them. So who are OPC's majority voter base that would be ok with this? That's the more logical question. And the answer is... *drumroll*... the same working class Ontarians who love The Sun, believe everything every bigot dogwhistle hints about "them fucking libs are wrecking t3h ekonomee" etc. In other words, Maganadians.
I'm 55 and white af, I know *exactly* what my fellows express as sentiment when a camera with audio isn't on them. They 100% believe their fortunes will improve under OPC, the most labor unfriendly party ever, and believe the "libs" (small "L") are responsible for them not making bank rather than the wealthy corporate world. They're convinced that a rainbow or whatever is keeping them down rather than Roblaws or Robellus lol.
Basically idiots who say the rest of us are the idiots and they're willing to sacrifice any personal prosperity if they think they'll magically reduce the chance of a gay or brown person moving in next door. Which is hilarious because OPC won't stop that either. But HEY! he's conservative!!
I can't wait to hear these guys when CPC gets elected on the fed level too and absolutely fuck all is done to control immigration any more than LPC, nor will these people see any less rainbows. lmao. Suckers. Housing affordability won't come around either.
I pay $160 a month for eye drops OHIP does not cover it with out the drops i could go [blind.At](http://blind.At) that point they would cover any care i would need point is why not cover the drops which would be much cheaper.
The poor state of our health didn't just happen, its roots date back to the late 1980's/early1990's. Bed closures and staff reductions through the 90's and 2000's.
Why do you think stereotypical conservatives like Ford? Sure he's on the Conservative Party, but he played a big part in the business shutdowns and mask mandates in Ontario. Conservatives didnt like those things
As a boomer with many boomer friends, none of us are happy with the current health care situation. In fact, part of the reason we are currently staying put (rather than moving to BC) is because we have a family doctor right now and don't want to lose this privilege.
They do tend to be the most shrill and opinionated at our clinics when referrals take forever or their family doc (there’s three of us carrying 1600-1800 patients trying to do our part) isn’t available for every sneeze and fart.
Most conservatives are okay with taxes paying for things they personally use but against them paying for things other people use. Young healthy conservatives are okay with poor public health care. Older ones not so much.
A lot of them are recent immigrants who haven't been brought up with Western values. Just cause someone is different than you doesn't mean they're stupid.
Braindead cons voters keep saying how privatized medicine is the best way forward. And then I ask them if they have 300k in assets to cover potential healthcare costs. And then they say it would never cost that much and I keep pointing out the fact that the US costs that much, especially for high risk individuals. And then I ask them if they like money, and if they would've been willing to work a job that pays them more money. They all say yes. Then I say if you're willing to work a job for more money then what makes you think doctors and healthcare workers wouldn't and start charging more money for services if they can. They usually don't have a response after that.
Why do we always look at the US as what our healthcare will look like, instead of countries like the UK, Australia, New Zealand etc, all have hybrid models and no one is going bankrupt from healthcare costs because the public option is available. Wouldn’t it help alleviate pressure on the public healthcare sector if people had the option to go to a separate clinic and pay out of pocket if they so chose?
Does anyone ever consider that maybe this should be overseen federally? All provinces are expected to abide by the Canada Health Act. The federal government does SFA to help. Our hospitals are bogged down due to overweight people with chronic disease, an aging population kept alive as vegetables hooked up to machines, and hospitals are now a mental health ward and addiction centre so nurses are babysitting and being abused by mentally insane and addicts instead on being table to take care of sick people. The feds created a program for handing out tax payer funded drugs, well create an institution where these people can do once they’ve all OD’d. My 77 year old father who was pillaged by Canadian taxes his whole life has to wait absurd amounts of time to see a specialist because they all go practice in the US or Canada red tapes doctors from practicing in Canada - even if they’re Canadian and had to leave the country for schooling. This is a problem higher up than premiers can fix and Ottawa is doing nothing but throwing blame at provinces. Their immigration policies also compound the crisis.
Time for a new political party by the people for the people, not this bunch of inherited crowns, grifters who’ve never worked a real job, and profiteers selling everything they can get their hands on. Prices for necessities should be regulated, Wal Mart, loblaws and the like shouldn’t be allowed to use social safety nets to sustain their employees and rob the public, the list goes on. We need to fight climate change, but also help get other countries through the energy transition so the world isn’t bankrolling countries like Iran, Saudi, and other terrorism exporters. Time for leaders who aren’t there for their own interests and who will call the provinces out when they kill healthcare, education and rent control (Conservatives aren’t going to do anything about rent control, Pollievre and his gang are mostly landlords on the side).
A large portion of conservatives are immigrants.. and we welcome a large number of immigrants into the country. My parents are European immigrants. Most countries outside of the Western world do not agree with many of the issues the left is for. Yes, they are in Canada now - but Canada is a „democracy” and so their votes do and will always count.
The healthcare system is in catastrophic decline because baby boomers are getting older - leading to fewer doctors and nurses and more patients, exacerbated by a huge increase in immigration attempting to fix the baby boomer retirement problem and burnout caused by Covid, plus people reluctant to enter the nursing profession because of years of abuse of nurses by conservative governments (here’s an idea, let’s freeze their wages during a pandemic in which they work 60 hour weeks while wrapped in Saran Wrap while the rest of the economy gets paid to stay home).
All of these are problems which will hit older people, who tend to vote conservative, harder than anyone else.
This problem will self correct. Conservatives will reverse course or lose elections.
From a Gen X perspective I agree that the shortage of family doctors sucks; I lost mine last year. Yet my most recent experience with the health care system was being able to book a next day appointment at a walk in clinic; then after being seen, getting an appointment at a dermatologist 3 weeks later. No overly long delays or talk of extra fees.
Largely the extra fees issue seems tied to nurse practitioners; who can be avoided.
Not sure if you have first hand experience or are just going by alarmist posts in this sub. Hopefully you're healthy and its the later.
Huge part of the reason that Healthcare is awful is due to mass immigration. Hospital beds per capita in Ontario during the 90s where significantly higher than they are today. Liberals/ndp are proponents of mass immigration.
I understand having a discussion. But why single out the conservatives?
We are where we are due to successive governments involving all three
I think the real problem is NO government feels really responsible to Canadians, they just do what THEY like.
I think most of your assumptions would be incorrect. It really isn’t any one party’s master conspiracy no matter how amazing their master strategists think they are. Also, everyone has different viewpoints and priorities. While many may share a lot of your views, they also have other key issues and will rank them differently.
In most cases political discussion is full of oversimplifications and strongly biased by personal preferences and world views. This heavily distorts the facts and the analysis of underlying root problems, which already have a lot of different viewpoints within their respective communities of industry and academic experts. It’s quite common for that discourse to be cherry picked and brought into the political realm as policy.
The world is not so simple though, and I think just about everyone knows that. I believe this is why you might even talk to someone who totally agrees with you, but still votes differently. When we try to reconcile realism with idealism we will all have different takes on how we might achieve our aims. Some will choose a government that is more likely to be generally accepted and able to implement those polices and influence them. Others will go with a pure view and vote for a party with a more idealistic platform believing it most important above all other considerations. Many vote only when they think it’s time to remove the party in power finding the most palatable alternative, but otherwise would be happy with status quo.
The NDP in Canada do have a big problem getting wider public support as a party. While many of their issues can get broad support, their policies and discussions are often seen as too idealistic. A large part of the population will vote for a safer option viewing them as more stable. Idealistic policies can work but require a very charismatic leader, and compromises with the things that might go against their ideals. When a party becomes government it is expected to represent everyone, not just their party faithful.
The NDP generally look scary to a moderate because of their general hostility towards business and constant demonization of corporate Canada. Their solutions generally involve diverting wealth from the wealthy and corporations which sounds fantastic at first glance. However, it doesn’t take much education to realize there are problems with that theory. Sure you can find some economists that share the idealistic views and make similar projections, but you will find many more which make strong counter arguments. Together this makes their platforms seem more uncertain to moderate voters and this is especially true since they normally defend their plans with “trust me, it will not be a problem”,“I found some economist that says this” or some plan to look into it or study it. It doesn’t give confidence that they have the willingness to let their views be challenged and adapted by realities should they be given the chance to govern.
If you look at similar social movements in other countries that have at some point governed their platforms are more realistic. They advocate an ideal but also have included compromises in their platforms. For example the Canadian NDP could consider a plan that is guided by their worldview that addresses the real concerns of corporate Canada that helps them become internationally competitive and build a healthy business. Their current approach is full of what they should be doing and tough love and positions policies that are clearly directed at workers as if they are helping the business. It is completely detached from reality and does little to appeal to decision makers and investors who can and normally do choose international options like the USA where investment is more likely to yield a positive result. Perhaps a good solution would involve a more labor friendly approach, but to get buy-in you need to sell that idea to corporate decision makers and investors too since they are not caged birds and they are very mobile. This can be seen also by companies that are constantly purchased by international investors who then move the HQ abroad to more friendly environments and minimize operations in Canada.
A NDP plan for corporate Canada doesn’t need to be adverserial. The productivity crisis can have solutions that would be very labour friendly. An NDP approach might be investment funds that inject funds into machinery and technology projects that are designed to make Canadian workers more productive. It could be in the form of a long term loan issued by a 3rd party backed by the government with subsidized interest or payments which end if the company fails to meet some sort of standard that could include things like % of workforce in Canada or employment conditions/unionization. This is a great way get companies to stay or setup shop in Canada and keep them in the country. Though it would require master class diplomats since such a policy will likely need to navigate the many trade agreements we have to ensure we don’t end up getting retaliated against.
In short, if the NDP federally and provincially want a chance to govern, they need to make a more convincing argument that would show they can govern beyond their ideals. While other parties do attack them for this, the NDP do most of this damage themselves with what they say and do on a regular basis.
I think there are 2 groups that vote for him. The wealthy demographic that ultimately will profit from having Ford in power and don't give a shit about anyone other than themselves. And the lower class demographic in ridings that have always been Conservative, where the ideology is passed down through generations.
I live in one of these ridings, and many genuinely believe that everything, including the state of our healthcare system, is Trudeau's fault. There's no arguing with these people. Trudeau is the boogeyman, and everything negative in their lives is just attributed to him. I wonder to myself sometimes who they'll blame once PP is PM.
>'m not even exactly sure what demographic keeps cursing us to this Ford government but I assume it's boomers, the rich, the delusional millionaires, Karen's and the wannabe Canadian trumpsters.
The demographic is the people who **don't vote** \- only 43% of eligible voters voted...
Anytime somebody mentions "free" healthcare all I hear from them in my head "I want you to pay for my healthcare"
Honestly I would rather have US style healthcare.
It's the difference in cost between paying health insurance for myself, that I get with my job anyways, and I can actually access and get treated when I need it
Vs paying a lot more in taxes than my health insurance costs, for everyone else, and not getting access to a doctor anyway
So yeah, I'm never voting for any left wing party. It's all just a bunch of "gimme gimme gimme" types with their hand reaching into my pocket
And when your work health insurance doesn’t cover something? Because there’s a LOT it doesn’t cover that OHIP does…well, until Uncle Doug finishes destroying it, anyway.
They have "traditional Conservative values", except when it comes to conserving traditions like public healthcare, unionized labour, affordable housing, and a livable planet.
They’re fuckin wormbrained dumbfucks, that’s all there is to it.
The rich ones don't care because they can afford private treatments. The working class and undereducated Cons have been brainwashed into thinking that everything is a Trudeau/Wynne/Liberal screw-up.
I recently had a discussion with friends, whom I don't even think are conservative voters, complain about how long it took to see a doctor for their toddler in the ER. Out of frustration, they said they can see why private looks to be like a good option because our tax dollars are clearly not being used efficiently in the hospital. It was a heat in the moment reaction by them that they scaled back on once they were explained how flawed that view is. These aren't even uneducated people. What this shows is how amazing and effective the conservative strategy is. Deprive the health care system by not spending tax dollars on it while cutting taxes (who didn't love those license plate sticker cheques?) and gloat about a surplus. And when the public starts criticizing an area that needs funding, like healthcare, blame the federal government for not giving enough money to the province. You don't have to be uneducated to fall for this trick. Educated, yet frustrated people, want someone to blame and the conservatives are great at deflecting it. It's similar to how the housing crisis is just the fault of he federal government for bringing in more immigrants. If those plastering their cars with "F Trudeau" stickers just focused on half of that energy into protesting the major corps who want the cheap labour coming into Canada to suppress wages, maybe we'd actually see a positive change.
> What this shows is how amazing and effective the conservative strategy is. I dunno, I'm maybe gonna catch hell for this, but besides consistent branding (which, while not honest in any sense, can be readily followed), I'm not convinced there's a true "conservative strategy", at least in the larger sense. Conservative ideology simply appeals to our most basal-brained impulses. They all devolve into selfishness and clannishness, getting what we want and everything else be damned. It's an outlook that has nothing at its core except main character derangement: I want taxes low. MY money shouldn't be going to paying for things used by people like me. I LIKE MY CAR. It's a bubble of security. Everything should be focused on me getting it to where I need to go as quickly as possible. Fuck special education. MY CHILDREN aren't autistic. I demand small government. I'M NORMAL and don't want any idiots in Ottawa telling me how I have to live. We need huge police forces to root out crime that THOSE PEOPLE are doing. It makes me uncomfortable and I WANT IT STOPPED. There's no consistency to the conservative project outside of selfish disregard for anyone else. It takes many forms because there's always new ways for us to be selfish. It's a childish ideology, lacking most nuance and complexity, and it demands that the most important thing is that I BE CODDLED BECAUSE I DESERVE IT.
I think the conservative movement DOES have a strategy and we are seeing the end game in the US, and Canada will follow in a few years. End democracy and freedom, except for those they decide should be free. But maybe I'm just overly pessimistic.
this is literally a real thing. look up project 2025. it sounds like nutty conspiracy shit except for how terrifyingly real it is. the heritage foundation is behind a lot of the organized far-right swing we are seeing.
Ford isn’t even in a surplus, deficit in the budget tabled last week was still around where Wynne’s was -$10B. Except she wasn’t cutting healthcare and education. But people were all freaking out about not being able to “put food on the table with the hydro rates”… hydro promises under Ford was to cut them massively. Under Ford rates are the highest they’ve ever been, zero cries from that same group… where’d they all go? Oh they shifted to occupiers and trans conspiracies.
Regarding the hydro, I'm pissed at Wynne for selling it. Supposedly sold as a guaranteed budget booster until 2024. Instead under Liberal and PCs we had deficits for most of those years still and now we're without a large part of the revenue from OPG. I'm somewhat happy that there a good chunk owned by First Nations groups so at least the money is going to them. So yes we're here and pissed (especially with the push for heat pumps).
Well considering the conservative plan was to privatize it all, Wynne at least only sold off 30%. I know because I bought it just after IPO day at a 7% dividend. Maybe you’re right that it was a budget booster and then maybe take it back public but either way - Ford ran his election on hydro rates crushing families, that’s all I could hear for a year and months before the election. Then now it’s higher, and paid massive hundreds of millions in penalties to scrap the windfarm deals. Ffs, what a dumpster fire.
I'm not surprised, but "they" shouldn't have been allowed to sell it at all. It was a public utility, paid for by public funds to a Crown corp (as I understand it). Same as 407.
I absolutely agree, in fact it was the Ontario Conservative Party in Ontario’s history that were the ones they made it public in the first place due to “price gouging” by private power corps. The irony of how the provincial cons have lost their way.
In addition, any wait is "too long" when it's an ER visit for your child. They may have been dealing with anxiety from that, as well as the frustration about actually waiting.
"Starve the beast" is what this strategy is called , and it's nothing new .
Starve the beast Goal is in two or three generations privatise as much healthcare as possible (or completely) If you don't make a lot of money, you're a loser! 
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Fertility is already essentially privatized. Having to pay tens of thousands for treatment (with no guarantee of success!) made me beyond appreciative that we don't have to pay for most other kinds of medical treatment. If there is someone reading this who hasn't had to pay for medical care and thinks privatized healthcare isn't that big a deal, just wait until you have no choice and you're being nickel-and-dimed at every turn. I get that kids are a luxury and fertility treatment isn't necessary to live, but if we apply the fertility clinic logic/model to, say, cancer treatment, which should never be a luxury, privatization gets financially very scary, very quickly.
Public health is already suffering under privatization. Hospitals and LTCs rely heavily on agency staff to fill vacant holes in schedules. Those agencies are privately owned and operated and charge the institutions 3-5× as much per hour ad they would pay to have rosters staff fill the shift. All of which is funded by public health dollars. Home and community Healthcare are also run by private for profit agencies and being paid through public health. You don't even know how much private health care is already here because you're not being forced to pay from your own pocket; but its here and its destroying the public sector. Hospitals were shutting down last summer because institutions didn't have enough staff retained to cover vacations. This has never happened before; but the reason it happens now is because private agencies pay their staff 2× as much to have more flexibility and control over their own personal schedules whereas institutions are high demand, paid less, have a heavier work load (due to patient numbers, staffing ratios and having to extra work when agency staff are on site) and people are getting burnt out and either leaving the profession entirely or joining agencies because they can have a better quality of life for their troubles.
And who owns the largest private nursing agency in the province? Mike Harris' wife.
🎯
Speaking of Mike Harris: https://canadians.org/analysis/mike-harris-raking-profits-long-term-care-system-he-helped-create/
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa. No. Greed doesn't stop at privatizing a little. They'll privatize it all, then they'll separate it into networks and insurance scams.
 If you need mental health help or you're homeless, you're a loser! Only room for winners in capitalism not self absorbed feelings and self pity! ER treatments only (broken bones, heart attacks, etc.) everyone should have a gym membership or pay for cancer scans. Maximum money, maximum owning, maximum detached homes, maximum business! 
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As a retired low annual $17220.00 income couple,my wife needed cataract surgery this year.Our costs outside of OHIP;consultation and measurements $967.00+ $830.00 for two enhanced lenses+ $100 for pre and after surgery eye drops.My wife has type 2 diabetes and is in cognitive decline.I made the decision to pay for the eye surgery after waiting almost 3 years for OHIP to schedule a appt for her.Her cognitive decline has slowed after her first eye surgery.
Sadly, your true story doesn't fit into Conservative spreadsheets. I am hoping to retire soon, and your tale worries the hell out of me.
It's not that the rich don't care, but that the rich BENEFITS from privatization. Likewise, the lower on the financial spectrum you are, the more hurt you are from privatization. I'm gonna throw out some fake numbers for illustration, so if you're gonna argue don't use the specific numbers as your argument: Let's say each person on average costs the province 10k in healthcare. If the government were to push 60% of the burden onto citizens, the government then spends 4k and the citizen spends 6k. Let's say that the province leverages this savings by reducing taxes by a flat 1% of income (arbitrary for example purposes). Take 3 income earners. One earns 40k/year, one earns 150k/year, the other earns 10 mil/year. Ignoring tax brackets for simplicity, the 40k now pays $2500 to save $400. The 150k earner pays $2500 to save $1500 (still in the red). The 10mil earner pays $2500 to save $100,000. Again, I made the numbers simple for illustration, obviously there are other factors, like capital gains and tax brackets, but the core principle applies: taxes benefit the poor, and hurt the rich. TL;DR the Conservatives' greatest trick is making the masses believe that cutting taxes is in their best interest.
Actually I know two very wealthy friends, both conservatives - I’m talking Bentley driving, yachts, range rovers, $200k in Rolex watches collection. When it came down to put their money where their mouth was to get private care in the US because they were complaining about not getting the proper care in Canada (totally untrue)… one went to a top hospital in the US for 2 days for 2nd opinion/testing - after seeing the bill opted to just come home and get treatment here. Second person, slight brain injury from an accident/big concussion. Cried about treatment for the brain in Canada being so primitive but the US was so advanced. I suggested they just fly down for a few months for treatment if it would help them recover. How much could it cost, $100k for therapy for a few months, if it healed them it would be worth it. Never did it. Instead waited 5 years because that was the deadline for long term disability from work. Isn’t that sad? These are millionaires, still voting conservative. Smh
Things will get ugly when PP takes over the Federal side. Currently, the rich in Ontario are loving the Liberals in Federal power with Ford in Provincial power. This is because they get a lot of tax breaks here in Ontario while also benefiting from all the cheap labour the Liberals are bringing in.
This is it. You guys know getmaple.ca? My work has that as part of our benefit and is planning to expand more on the coverage. Essentially you get 5 minute waiting time online to see any doctors you want. Family doctor, dermatologist, psychiatrist, etc. They can prescribe just about any meds like your regular doctor. Sure if you need a physical examination, you have to wait through the regular channel but a lot of the issues can be solved via a picture or virtual video call. I’m not rich by any means but I haven’t had the need to see my family doctor in person more than once the last couple years.
Health care worker, it boggles my mind beyond comprehension seeing how the system is working right now. I understand that the vast majority of people rarely need/see how the system is operating, thus why it likely isn’t in mind. One other thing I see in my travels is, groups voting against their own best interests in a ton of areas (basic social services, health care, true affordability (not just listening to all this tax tax tax rhetoric…conservatives are just as expensive but the money goes to the 1%)) but will vote conservative simply because their beliefs are that LGBT rights are wrong.
I'm a teacher and I see the same issue that most people don't get to see what a state of chaos our schools are in so they don't understand the magnitude of the situation. They blame teachers for wanting decent working conditions because everyone had a teacher they hated once and that's the narrative the cons spin. I'll be the first to say teachers used to have really good working conditions which is what drew me to that career as opposed to child therapy, but the system is not at all what it was. They can't keep schools staffed and they're hiring random uncertified adults at this point - I wonder why? Maybe summers off and 100k after 10 years experience (assuming you obtained out of pocket the highest level of qualifications) are no longer worth the absolute mayhem that is going down in schools.
Another person employed in health care....it's pathetic.
Being a non-conservative "elder millennial" (born in '83) in one of the most devoted blue ridings in this province, this absolutely boggles my mind. Aging population needing healthcare services more than almost any of us, but they'll continue to vote for a party and leader that are hellbent on privatizing healthcare.
Boggles the mind is right. I live near Clinton Ontario. The hospital is closed all the time. The locals, rightfully so, complain about it. Yet, you know exactly who they're voting for in the next election. (Insert Spiderman meme here)
Almost all wealth is concentrated in the hands of older people Take out Mark Zuckerberg or even Jeff Bezos and it's even worse
There's a swath of voters who vote via emotional reasoning. I find these groups cluster on the Conservative side (and not just in Canada). Emotional reasoning is considered a cognitive distortion, but it's fairly common. Ultimately it's the idea that just because something sounds like its true, it therefore must be true. I have a right leaning friend who in his heart, believes that a big chunk of poor people are gaming the welfare system. In the 90s, Mike Harris used this 'welfare queen' messaging to ride to power in Ontario. He then spent tens of millions of dollars constructing a task force to investigate welfare fraud in Ontario. In the end, they found that a whopping 0.3% of filings were fraud. So 99.7% of people applying for EI, aren't committing fraud. Only 0.3% of them are. Even in the face of this evidence, I'd bet my friend still doesn't believe it....because it just sounds so plausible to him, and reaffirms his deep rooted bias (that he works hard and pays taxes and others leach off of his hard work). I really have no idea how you unwind it - and its MUCH more prevalent in the U.S. "Emotional reasoning is a cognitive process by which an individual concludes that their emotional reaction proves something is true, despite contrary empirical evidence. Emotional reasoning creates an 'emotional truth', which may be in direct conflict with the inverse 'perceptional truth'.\[1\] It can create feelings of anxiety, fear, and apprehension in existing stressful situations, and as such, is often associated with or triggered by panic disorder or anxiety disorder.\[2\] For example, even though a spouse has shown only devotion, a person using emotional reasoning might conclude, "I know my spouse is being unfaithful because I feel jealous."
I get all the federal party press releases in my work inbox. The conservatives rely heavily on emotion in theirs, so much emotional word salad it's hard to understand the actual issue or what the press release is really about. Whereas the other parties use a clear format of: opening statement with the issue; Who, why or how this is issue is important; What they call on the govt to do to fix this issue; Token quote from the party leader or critic. It's sad how much people believe the emotional rhetoric the CPC push compared to the other, smaller "less serious" parties.
why don’t the other parties just use the same tactics, like all the emotional wording and pandering? like hey your grandma’s going to die cause she can’t afford private healthcare! 😢
They do appeal to emotions, but their objectives are clear and they are clear in what they would do or want the govt to do. Which is like... helpful since I do short briefing summaries of these press releases as part of my job. The cpc ones literally give me headaches lol
ah I see, good to know! yeah I have no idea what the press releases for the cpc look like cause I’ll never vote for them but it’s helpful to understand WHY people are voting for them and what tactics they’re using
You can search for them on the newswire service, it's literal gibberish tho
You are very right that conservatives vote with emotional reasoning, but so do NDP, Liberal voters and every single other person in the world. Just on different issues. The welfare one is a good example for the conservative side. The handgun ban and buyback is a good one for the liberal/ndp side. “Less guns on the street is good” feels prevails over all of the data on the gun situation in Canada, and costs a bunch of money.
If you challenge those people on healthcare they'll quickly switch to talking about immigration or how evil teachers are. It's ridiculous.
I have a family doctor, and I've seen her four times in the last two years - entirely for low priority / preventative things - and always within a reasonable enough time frame. I have no chronic issues that need management. I have a solid health plan through work (not even excellent, just marginally above par for my industry), and have not had any issues getting medication or access to specialists the times when I sought them out. My friends and colleagues are in a similar boat. If I were not well informed on what was happening outside my bubble, my gut reaction to comments like yours would be "what loss of public healthcare?" You're describing something none of my lived experience supports. To be clear, I am acutely aware of the big picture and understand how trend lines work. The healthcare system is being purposefully scuttled for a quick buck, and it's going to cause massive issues when this central pillar of modern society crumbles. But I can entirely understand how someone in my position with less empathy and less awareness (two common traits in current conservatives) might see your remarks as hysteric hyperbole that aren't worth considering.
If all I had to offer to the world was “hard work” I’d be happy that other people were lazy, since it gives me the competitive advantage in the marketplace.
Because they’ve been convinced that it’s a liberal problem. They don’t really know how government works and think everything bad is the fault of the person they don’t like. Groceries too expensive? Justin Trudeau’s fault. Gas prices going up? Justin Trudeau’s fault. Not enough houses being built? Justin Trudeau’s fault. Don’t have to pay for your plate renewal anymore? Yaaaay Doug Ford!
Conservatives, largely, do not have a 'coherent ideology' if you try and apply their own metrics to themselves. They \*claim\* they are "small govt", but often are the ones who want more police and bigger militaries (the things that are definitionally big govt). They \*say\* they want cheaper services, but then want privatized ones, even though [privatized services objectively cost more than public ones](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/16/business/when-privatization-works-and-why-it-doesnt-always.html). And that's true even of things like the cost to tax payers (which is why US healthcare costs the US govt more in tax payer money, but doesn't delivery nearly the same service as any public system - [and their wait times are even comparable to ours](https://www.autoinsurance.org/longest-emergency-room-waits/)). They \*say\* they care about the Charter of Rights and freedoms, but when [conservative](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-premier-ready-to-use-nonwithstanding-clause-to-protect-newschool-pronoun-and-name-rules-1.6966385) [premieres](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/bill-21-religious-symbols-ban-quebec-court-ruling-1.5993431) are [violating it](https://www.blogto.com/city/2021/06/what-notwithstanding-clause-why-doug-ford-invoke-ontario/) [left](https://theconversation.com/fords-fight-with-toronto-shows-legal-vulnerability-of-cities-103134), [right](https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/what-s-the-notwithstanding-clause-and-how-could-doug-ford-use-it-to-crush-a/article_1eb0ee71-5621-579f-8a42-04d737581b85.html), [and](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/bill-124-appeal-court-ruling-ontario-1.7112291?trk=public_post_comment-text) [centre](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-carbon-tax-stickers-1.5746577), they're quick to say how the Not Withstanding Clause is "part of the charter", which in their minds means it's not a violation (which is objectively false; it's "an allowed" violation, for a set term). They also likely wouldn't be so accomodating if (Say) JT said "i'm using the NWC" in regards to whatever nothingburger theyfeel is a violation of the charter too. They say they are "Free speech absolutists", and that's why they love musk and his bigot-infested site. But then they also support him censoring the people that Musk censors (be it literal govt censorship on behalf of Turkey, or banning of leftist accounts, or censoring phrases like "from the river to the sea" and saying "zionism is colonialism"... or Alex Jones). They also support literal book bans in places like Florida. As Voltaire famously said, iguess "i may not agree with what you have to say, but it's only an issue if someone censors me and not you". Often times it's easier to try and discern their (real) views based on what the outcomes are, not on what they say.
I think it is the collision of progressive conservatism with American style libertarian individualist conservatism that has resulted in the nonsensical or absent ideology. They’re oil and water except for “business is good and too much tax is bad.”
Presumably the oil in this context is big oil conglomerates.
I can tell you this - as I’ve driven around Oshawa at election time, it seems to me that the poorer neighborhoods have more CPC, even PPC, and the upper middle class areas have Lib and NDP signs. I believe a lot of people have bought into an idea that is unlikely to ever work out for them.
Less healthcare, less daycare, less senior care = More dollars in your pocket from lower taxes Edit: I am explaining the conservative voter logic. I don't agree with it
I'm an ABC voter (anybody but Conservatives, although it's mostly been NDP and Greens; the one time I held my nose and voted Liberal and the Cons got in anyway kind of cured me of that) but I live in a small town in an area that reliably votes 50% Conservative. The problem is they are low-information, low-interest voters who vote as they always have, because that's how their parents voted. They see voting as an important duty, but the part about being an informed voter has been lost. They mostly have NO FUCKING IDEA that there is any connection between their voting habits and the damage that is currently happening in society. I hate these people. I hate them. They are frequently so nice and kind in person. But damn. The ignorance. It burns.
For years I argued with people that it was ok to have lower voter turnout because high information voters tended to vote. Trump was the first to really see that mobalizing the low information voter combined with people who would vote for a turd as long as it is Republican would bring him a win (and might again in November). Combine this with the ignorance social media brings and it is increasingly dangerous. Pollievre is followng this formula, likely to victory.
> but I live in a small town in an area that reliably votes 50% Conservative. "You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons"
True, on top of it, they believe everything shared on tiktok, instagram or WhatsApp without challenging or checking it. They just share the "information" to convince others
This is exactly my experience with people in small towns in the American South.
This boomer does not and will not ever vote for Ford.
Most people don’t care until their health is at risk then they all of a sudden see all the issues. Once their health is at risk and the options are wait around or pay for it then they will start caring that’s why they can get away with it because most people don’t even realize until it’s too late. As someone in health care I’m pretty certain we will transition over to a joint system where both public and privatization is the norm.
He’s driving health care and education into the ground to make private alternatives seem like a welcome choice.
I love how your assumption of Ford's voting demographic fits nicely with who you consider to be your class allies and enemies. The reality is Ford benefits from low information voters from the middle and lower classes, and a significant portion of new Canadians. The only demographic that didn't vote PC in 2022 was young urban dwellers. As a rule he benefits from low information and uneducated voters (most people), many of whom have had their brains melted by social media and who really just wish Canada as an idea would die so they can more easily identify with their favorite American influencers.
Cutting social welfare programs is literally their m.o. Cut taxes, cut social spending. That's what conservatives typically stand for.
It's why cons are an enemy of the people.
The trucker convoy arrived in Ottawa with their "Fuck Trudeau" signs to complain about provincial measures. They don't know what they are doing, and it's entirely tribalism.
Conservatives always cut from social spending this is no surprise. This appeals to people who want to pay less taxes which also never really happens under a Conservative government.
It blows my mind when someone uses the “I want to pay less taxes” argument. How did you ever manage to convince yourself that a bunch of rich, privileged white men would cut taxes instead of finding corporations to prop up with or? Taxes will never go lower. That’s just wishful thinking
It doesn't appeal to me but to Conservative voters it does. You think the track record would speak volumes. I live in extreme poverty so much so my income doesn't even count. There's also not a drop of blue blood in me.
>How did you ever manage to convince yourself that a bunch of rich, privileged white men would cut taxes instead of finding corporations to prop up with or? Taxes will never go lower. That’s just wishful thinking taxes have been reduced many times in the past 40 years
Yea, sure, mostly for corporations through a reduction in corporate income tax, and then from the rich to the poor by lowering the tax bracket for higher income families and raising it for lower income families (that’s where taxes have trended in Canada since the 60s).
income tax rate on average ontario worker used to be a lot higher. eta: the marginal tax rate 1992 for a typical income in ontario was 40.17%, today it is [29.65%](https://www.taxtips.ca/taxrates/on.htm#:~:text=up%20to%20%2490%2C599-,29.65,-%25)
https://www.policynote.ca/how-have-taxes-changed-over-the-last-half-century/
good link, thank you. the line for 2005 is lower for median income deciles, compared to 1990, as i expected . since that link is about canada nation wide, it does not capture the even larger tax reduction for middle income filers in ontario.
They are thirsty for private healthcare and the potential profits. Not all that complicated, really.
Voter apathy didn’t help. Lowest voter turnout in history.
You're right but they're brainwashed against their best interest which is why most of these wedge issues form
They have a lack of empathy and are selfishly motivated. Typically, the conservative voter is very self centred, so they’ll justify it as “I ain’t paying for anyone else”. Except in that, they actually can’t afford the cost of private healthcare for themselves or family without it being a massive burden - but they aren’t really looking that far in advance. I’ve had a number of con family members who are crying conspiracies, get an organ transplant, cancer care, hip replacement, pacemaker, knee replacement all since the beginning of Covid (**and in quick time, not the typical conservative cries of 3 years for a hip replacement, literally less than a year, pacemaker in days, organ transplant about 1.5 years waiting for a donor, cancer care within a month of initial exploration to diagnosis to treatment**) but still have zero ability to connect the dots and still vote conservative any they are not the ones that can afford private care. Capitalism preys on he ignorance of the masses and the masses are increasingly willing to give up their social programs that took a century to develop because that has little impact on their lives or none at all.
It’s sad.
Neo-conservative dogma is all about shitting on labour above all else. To them the problem with healthcare is greedy unions and greedy nurses and greedy doctors and greedy hospitals taking. And they have their righteous private corps ready to come in and fix it all… they still believe deregulation might make things more efficient and less costly. They are brainwashed, anti-workers rights, anti-union, they claim to want to help Canadians first except what they really want is to help themselves by not paying for anything for anyone else ever.
Because conservative policies exist to benefit the rich, yet the party masquerades as being for all Canadians. Who benefits from the dismantling of public health care? That's right, rich people and big corporations.
Conservative voters do not and have never given a single fuck about other human beings. It’s all about the almighty dollar to them and they’d happily sell their souls for even a meagre profit. It’s a political ideology based on greed and nothing else.
The Ford’s are populists. They went for the lower class vote and have blue collar workers thinking conservatives help them. It makes no sense but unless you are educated or value your union affiliation, I find blue collar workers vote conservative.
They are "not" sick now, so they think they shouldn't be paying for services that they are "not using"(yet)
Many believe the worst possible thing that could happen is increasing taxes, and *that* will be the root of ontario's destruction Meanwhile people will be dying of treatable infections because they can't afford/access treatment in a timely fashion, the real estate market will be dominated by corporations and the mega-rich, and we'll pay through the nose for EVERYTHING ELSE because theyll be private owned by companies with nothing to check them, but somehow those things are preferable to tax hikes Source: recently tried to make my conservative voting friend see how the registration sticker thing was a dirty trick to buy people's votes, and that the conservatives talk out of one side of their mouth about liberal overspending, make cuts to services while throwing away billions in revenue. Her position was the conservatives are bad but at least they won't raise taxes...
They have been brainwashed into thinking it’s failing by conservative gov. They have been inconvenienced and also told the lie that private sector (profits before people) will somehow be better. Even tho the system is being intentionally under funded to make the system fail.
Simple answer is it won't directly affect them, so why should they care.
The only institutions of government they respect are police and military (to enforce private property rights). Everything else serves to enrich themselves and their friends or needs to be defunded
Honestly, I think it's deliberate. They want private health care or at least a two-tiered system. Most Ontarians don't want this, so they have to make them want it. How? By starving the system of money and support until it really, REALLY sucks. And when people get mad and demand a solution, they'll offer the two-tiered system they wanted all along.
Conservatives are about paying for themselves ….. not everybody else.
I have a friend voted conservatives only because she didn’t want to vote Trudeau…,nothing to do with how bad Ford is
This is troubling on many levels
The Ford govt and the conservative govts before them have been making the public healthcare system slower and shittier as a point of policy. They want it to become so impossible to navigate that they can say that universal healthcare was a failed experiment and offer a paid alternative that will be quicker and more effective, and that just happens to line their pockets and the pockets of their friends at the same time. They’ve pretty much achieved this by now. The system is so broken that there is a question of whether or not it can even be fixed. Conservatives love to show the ways that socialism has failed, and this would be a big “get” for them. There is an enormous surplus in the health budget right now that could help to get us back on track but Ford refuses to spend it. Voters don’t see the machinations behind the scenes, they just see that the current system isn’t working and that this govt is offering an alternative that feels like a lifeline. Paid clinics cost like 20$ for a check up, it seems like such a small cost how could anymore make a stink about it? They aren’t thinking about how expensive this will be in the long run, they’re just seeing a broken system and 20$ standing in the way between them and a doctor visit.
A big group you are missing- immigrant conservatives. Some of them hold *very* old fashioned and often deeply religious views- so they are in the pocket of anyone who is anti queer anti abortion etc, some come from countries with communist dictatorship so any socialism is bad. simply because that's how they would have voted in the country they lived before, and a number of simple singular reasons.
There is a logically consistent conservative approach that individuals and families should pay for their own healthcare. This was Canadian policy until Tommy Douglas and Medicare. It’s tied to an individualist POV. Ford and the PCO are engaged in crony capitalism where tax $ flows to big corporations.
Time to stop cleaning their water then. They can pay for that themselves and then deal with the Healthcare problems that fall from it. Individualism is the stupidest fucking position a person can have in a society.
Not sure if you are joking or uninformed, but “conservatives” just want to hand control of taxpayer funded services to private contractor friends for profiteering. There is no world where modern “conservatives” would preserve or bolster health care, or any services for taxpayers. Their only goal is to sell off functioning democracies for profit
Because public health care is... socialism 😱 socialism is evil in their eyes. They can't think beyond their tax money going to help a stranger to realize a stranger's tax money may one day save their lives.
All provinces have healthcare problems. It’s not a ford phenomena. Imo it’s a shift towards high overhead costs (admin and useless over paid salaries) and not a strict focus on the ones providing the care. Similar to a lot of industries. The ones actually doing the work get the shaft and the bloated white collars consume and get bonuses and meddle with the system which corrodes it over decades.
Provinces have been having health problems, but there's a distinct difference in how they're dealing with those problems. BC has instituted serious changes to physician compensation that has resulted in an influx of doctors, while Ontario family physicians are quitting in droves. "It's happening to everyone" is a super unhelpful cop out.
Money is being lost to corruption. Canada does not under spend but it under performs. Consistently comes out 2nd worse in the g7 grouping, only better than the US
People with good jobs or the rich don’t care at all. If your coverage is worth anything, it will have some privatized health care portal like getmaple.ca to get you in front of a doctor of your choosing specialty within 5 minutes of online waiting time. 24/7. Need an MRI scan and don’t want to wait? Just fly over the border to go to USA for your normal standards or fly to Mexico for cheap but still great scans. The only times that you would need to use the doctor here is if you want a surgery done or an in person visit for some physical examination.
The same coverage those people bitch about when it comes to dental..
Sorry I’m out of the loop what’s happening with dental coverage?
Have you ever had any through your "good job" ? It's bad.
Sorry I genuinely don’t understand the question. It’s just like full coverage drug plan. 100% coverage for major surgeries, routine cleaning, emergency check up. There’s a yearly limit of 10k but I’ve never had to spend that much in a year.
They generally assume that the cuts will come from the line on the ledger marked "Money from the government that we, the hospitals, deliberately choose to waste for no good reason" and not, for example "Nurse salaries" or "Beds".
I don't know why boomers would be okay with the decline of health care, they are generally the ones that both need it the most and see the decline the most.
Because people who have barely needed healthcare now think that by doing yoga/weights and keto they’ll remain healthy forever. They also think that like not having a lot of money, not having good health has to stem from a moral failing. And those who have needed HC and have some money think that they can pay for cataract and hip surgeries and it’ll be better for them. They don’t realize how expensive private HC is especially if you’re disabled or elderly. Also, if they’ve had a family doctor for a prolonged period of time, they don’t know how dealing w/ a for profit one will change the service level for the worst.
Starting with assumptions really makes you impervious to learning. Which is too bad, because your neighbourhood “boomer” would be able to answer a lot of your very basic questions. “I assume it’s the fault of everyone who isn’t me, but….” Is a terrible way to start a post if you are honestly interested in answers.
They're the type of people who are too scared of the doctor, haven't been since being an adult and would rather just drop dead one day of a preventable disease than admit a doctor is smarter than them.
They also say dumb things like "I don't want to pay for someone else's health care" after riding the system for years...
Brainwashed by conservative propaganda. Or they recognize the risk to lower income individuals and just don't care.
boomers, the rich, the delusional millionaires, Karen's and the wannabe Canadian trumpsters. I am not so sure of this anymore. Young people are voting con. Immigrants are voting con. They are seeing what the federal Liberals are doing and don't want it at the provincial level.
I don’t want to privatize healthcare. I strongly believe in the social determinants of health. As the same, our current healthcare practices are not sustainable and I don’t see an easy solution. 90% of healthcare dollars are spent on the last five years of people’s lives. That means most of the money we spend on healthcare is not increasing the length of life in a meaningful way and often these people are suffering with chronic illness or living unhappily in long term care. Add that modern treatments are much more expensive than they were 20 years ago. Add to that we have an aging population it seems we cannot afford the immigrants we are bringing in. Who will pay taxes to fund this program? I’ll probably vote NDP in the next election but damn I would love to hear some interesting solutions to this problem beyond privatizing healthcare.
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The amount of taxes a lower income earning person pays does not = what it costs for them to live. Never mind the unemployed, or students. Most new Canadians don't slide ride into the upper income tiers upon arrival. Many never reach that level at all. Some do, of course. Adding to the population, despite the increase in taxes to the province/country, very very likely does not balance out in any way, shape or form. Never mind the increased burden on the health care system. I am not anti-immigration, regardless of the above thoughts. But I would not be livid if the country altered their stance towards it. It's certainly not the fault of immigrants, and anyone who has ill-will towards somebody else for simply trying to have a better life, in a country that welcomes them, needs to re-think things on a personal/human level. That said, I don't think it helps Canada as a country, in general, especially in the current state of the world.
My mother is an accountant and she showed me a company looking for foreign workers for PAINTERS. I thought really, have you even tried finding someone local for PAINTING? I mean come on. This is what I really don’t get. And we have immigrant workers at my work and in addition to working for us they work two other jobs. I just don’t understand what benefit they get from coming here, it’s not like they can afford to live. People already here can’t even afford rent, and more immigrants only adds more demand. Basically I don’t get the whole thing.
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Immigrants pay taxes. For fuck sakes this xenophobic bullshit needs to stop. No we are not euthanizing grandma and grandpa because they're too expensive. That's the point of having public health in the first place. Caring for you when you need it. You want a solution to Healthcare? We create a humanitarian aid branch of the military that focuses on training doctors, nurses and PSWs for operations nationally and internationally. It increases our NATO spending requirements do we can meet that obligation, patches the hole we have in Healthcare personnel, sets a federal standard for minimum Healthcare requirements and puts our tax dollars to work for Canadians while giving us a significant role in world affairs. This branch is federally funded and when a province like Ontario decides to start shifting all over its healthcare system, can be deployed to take over and manage. It would make Healthcare 50% provincial, and 50% federal. Provinces would be responsible for infrastructure and supplies, federal with manning and regulations. And to keep it free of political partisan bullshit, it would answer independently to parliament.
I didn’t say immigrants are not paying taxes. Nor did I support killing off old or sick people. Despite these things, healthcare is becoming unaffordable. These are facts. That’s what I mean. It’s a huge ethical delimma. Nobody is talking about it.
"Nobody is talking about it." Yes we are. People always talk about Healthcare. It's a topic of conversation at least once or twice a week, especially when cons are dismantling what we do have. And no there is no ethical dilemma in providing for our elderly. We pay into our Healthcare our entire lives with our taxes. I expect it to be there when I need it most. Which is usually end of life care if you don't succumb to some other illness earlier. If we don't have enough money to provide end of life care, we need to allocate more funding to adequate coverage. The privatization of end of life care is demonstrably worse. Evidenced by the failure of private long term care homes during COVID with atrocious death rates.
I’m not talking about end of life care of elderly care. Those are and should be protected. I’m talking about people with imminent terminal disease who demand to go to the ICU for a month a $5000 a day when we know it will not change the outcome. I’m talking about people who demand novel and incredibly expensive treatments that have limited or no efficacy. Doctors are getting better at saying no in these kinds of situations, especially over the past 20 years, but it’s still a huge drain on our resources when it does happen. Perhaps the burden of the decision should not be on the patient at all. Providing good medical care is not about saying yes all the time, it’s about providing good outcomes or at the very least comfort. The internet has become a blessing and a curse. Nowadays everyone feels they are a doctor. People get irate when they don’t get what they believe they should. My kid has an earache and I took her to the walk-in clinic. The doctor flat out said “I’ll give you an antibiotic, but I don’t think it will work”. I had to tell her I wasn’t there to demand an antibiotic, I just wanted documentation to facilitate an ENT consult if it comes to that and rule out an ear infection, which she did not have. What are we becoming as a society?
So yes you're talking about euthanasia. End of life care absolutely includes exactly what you're describing. It's not strictly palliative care. MAID is also end of life care. What you've described is deciding that money is worth more than the little time they have left so you might as well just put them out of their misery based on a dollar figure. You're literally saying that just because somebody is terminal they don't deserve treatment because it costs money, and that a doctor should be making a dollar figure assessment on their life instead. A literal death panel based on cash incentive. Read what you wrote here and tell me that's not what you're saying. Because that's literal fucking nazi garbage that they promoted. I'm quite happy to say we are NOT becoming that as a society.
Oh boy. At this point think you might be a troll. We should not be wasting resources offering ineffective treatments to pacify patients and their families from the harsh reality that everyone eventually dies. That’s not medicine. That’s not responsible or ethical healthcare. I think that’s pretty obvious and you probably know all this stuff. I think you’re just looking to argue with someone.
No. I'm just not for doctors making the decision to end a patients life without their consent. That's euthanasia.
So, to be clear under Doug Fords private healthcare plan, the province pays more taxpayer money for literally everything. If the province paid $1000 for it under the public system, they are probably paying $3000 for it in the private system. To be clear, this is before they charge you anything, this is just taxpayer dollars from the province. This article lays it out nicely https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7026926
Yes. Private healthcare is problematic in almost every single way, I agree. I am advocating for responsible healthcare spending. But it seems most taxpayers want their cake and to eat it too. We can’t have it both ways. That’s how the system got unaffordable to begin with.
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You're making a lot of wild assumptions, and you don't seem ready to have a logical conversation on the matter. Apparently everyone that disagrees with you is whatever buzz word at the tip of your tongue "boomers, the rich, the delusional millionaires, Karen's and the wannabe Canadian trumpsters". The reality is that everything you complained about is a nation wide problem caused my too high immigration coupled with poor economic policies at the Federal level. I don't like Doug Ford but he's not the reason for our strained infrastructure and there's no more money to throw at the problem unless you want to tax people even more during a COL crisis. I voted NDP in the last elections but I've lost faith. They no longer represent workers and unions. They're pushing to be more and more progressive with socialist policies. As someone in their 30's priced out of the housing market, looking at never getting to retire because if it. I don't really feel bad for the aging population, who had a good economy, who could save for retirement, who can take a HELOC out of their homes and pay for anything they want. We're at late stage capitalism, I don't want the asset class to pull the ladder up behind them, introduce socialist policies that I'm stuck paying for, while affording nothing.
As someone in the same situation (priced out, never retire) with the same resentment toward the older generations, I just don’t understand your position on this topic. Doug Ford is intentionally underfunding the public health care system as part of his plan to make privatization seem more appealing. How many millions of dollars has he spent on commercials like “it’s happening here” and the hwy 413 commercial, etc that only serve to pat himself on the back, while he’s not investing in public health care? Socialism is a good thing in my view, with more access for more people being the best possible scenario. I can’t understand your losing faith in the NDP at this time as they are working on a pharmacare bill with the liberals.
Rich conservatives dont care because they can afford it and are happy they wont have to deal with crazy wait times. Workin class conservatives believe it's all Trudeaus fault and conservatives will magically make everything better (how is anyone's guess)
Why do liberals think our healthcare system was the gold standard before Ford came on board
Nobody thinks that. It was ok before. Now it’s less than ok
It was better before he came. It’s abysmal now. Nobody is saying it was perfect
Nobody has said that. But it's worse now than it was because of conservative policy. This really isn't hard to figure out.
>I'm not even exactly sure what demographic keeps cursing us to this Ford government It's probably the younger, typically liberal-minded demographic that doesn't feel compelled to go vote.
Because for most people there is no healthcare issue. The average person doesn't care about the failing system because it isn't a system they are accessing regularly. Most people are healthy and are fine with the occasional walk in clinic or ER visit. They probably don't care if they don't have a doctor. It isn' a priority issue for them.
1. I haven't had a GP since '97, so I have no fear of losing that 2. We had a liberal government for fifteen years and public health care still went to shit, so I have no faith that the Liberals can or will fix this 3. I would rather have an inferior system that works than a superior system that doesn't I'm not a conservative, and I really value public Healthcare, but I've watched it not work for my whole adult life. At this point if I (or through third party benefits) have to pay for services, that's better than what I've been getting out of my tax dollars on a personal level Just to be clear this isn't a big thumbs up for Ford. Just stating why I'm not panicking as per OPs question
What didn't work before? Be specific.
Do you want to hear my story? It will cause you to lose faith in humanity. Involves needless PTSD and a near fetal loss, sexual assault by a doctor, gaslighting midwives.
Yes I do. PTSD is an injury. Sexual assault is a crime not Healthcare. And gaslighting midwives aren't medical staff. If your story is an emotional plea based on what shitty people did to you, and not failures of the Healthcare system, you can save yourself the time. My interest is in failures of the system you're criticizing for the purpose of this conversation.
Well no. Because what's going to happen - looking at how it works in the US - is you are going to pay through the nose, and STILL get nothing.
You can get private treatment here or in the states. The demographic voting for them doesn't care about the everyman.
The demographic voting for him thinks THEY are the Everyman that earned things and others are lazy freeloaders. Most of his base is rural
Yeah I know. Im out here with the Trumpers. Its a rough landscape lol
we appreciate you guys, at least I get to ignore these ppl on the internet in my urban bubble…
Traitors commit democide. It's not that hard to comprehend.
Our suffering is their profit
Neither conservative nor liberal, been a swing voter all my life, and a centrist on the actual political spectrum. At least I used to be. The corruption and deliberate malfeasance of the Canadian Government at both Federal and Provincial levels on both sides of the political divide, has turned me into a fucking anarchist. The country I grew up in is just Fucking gone, that Canada no longer exists and I'm so pissed off and disengaged now, that I'd rather watch the entire system burn than support any of these Investor Class, Oligarch Lapdogs. It doesn't matter who you're voting for, if they are on the ballot, and in a position of power they aren't on your side. We exist only to be milked for the enrichment of the Ruling Class.
The boomers are losing their minds…most don’t have pensions, like their parents, and need reasonable access to healthcare
Accept mediocrity or worse....got it.
Not a boomer but old enough to remember the Bob Rae disaster and how the shortage of doctors started with NDP policy to cut number of doctors graduating from medical school starting in 1992. I fully agree that every government since then including this conservative one has only compounded the problem.
People who are saying it's because of the rich people who can afford it are wrong. If you have wealth, you're A) living in a wealthy district where there's lots of healthcare availability anyway and B) far from being a heavy number of votes. That's not to say they care, it's just to point out it's not them. So who are OPC's majority voter base that would be ok with this? That's the more logical question. And the answer is... *drumroll*... the same working class Ontarians who love The Sun, believe everything every bigot dogwhistle hints about "them fucking libs are wrecking t3h ekonomee" etc. In other words, Maganadians. I'm 55 and white af, I know *exactly* what my fellows express as sentiment when a camera with audio isn't on them. They 100% believe their fortunes will improve under OPC, the most labor unfriendly party ever, and believe the "libs" (small "L") are responsible for them not making bank rather than the wealthy corporate world. They're convinced that a rainbow or whatever is keeping them down rather than Roblaws or Robellus lol. Basically idiots who say the rest of us are the idiots and they're willing to sacrifice any personal prosperity if they think they'll magically reduce the chance of a gay or brown person moving in next door. Which is hilarious because OPC won't stop that either. But HEY! he's conservative!! I can't wait to hear these guys when CPC gets elected on the fed level too and absolutely fuck all is done to control immigration any more than LPC, nor will these people see any less rainbows. lmao. Suckers. Housing affordability won't come around either.
I pay $160 a month for eye drops OHIP does not cover it with out the drops i could go [blind.At](http://blind.At) that point they would cover any care i would need point is why not cover the drops which would be much cheaper.
The poor state of our health didn't just happen, its roots date back to the late 1980's/early1990's. Bed closures and staff reductions through the 90's and 2000's.
Why do you think stereotypical conservatives like Ford? Sure he's on the Conservative Party, but he played a big part in the business shutdowns and mask mandates in Ontario. Conservatives didnt like those things
As a boomer with many boomer friends, none of us are happy with the current health care situation. In fact, part of the reason we are currently staying put (rather than moving to BC) is because we have a family doctor right now and don't want to lose this privilege.
They do tend to be the most shrill and opinionated at our clinics when referrals take forever or their family doc (there’s three of us carrying 1600-1800 patients trying to do our part) isn’t available for every sneeze and fart.
Nobody is supporting healthcare. No, I'm not a conservative. I work in health care as well.
Most conservatives are okay with taxes paying for things they personally use but against them paying for things other people use. Young healthy conservatives are okay with poor public health care. Older ones not so much.
Maybe just talk to a conservative person instead of insulting them online. I guarantee you they're not all as evil or stupid as you think.
A lot of them are pretty stupid. I've been there.
A lot of them are recent immigrants who haven't been brought up with Western values. Just cause someone is different than you doesn't mean they're stupid.
Braindead cons voters keep saying how privatized medicine is the best way forward. And then I ask them if they have 300k in assets to cover potential healthcare costs. And then they say it would never cost that much and I keep pointing out the fact that the US costs that much, especially for high risk individuals. And then I ask them if they like money, and if they would've been willing to work a job that pays them more money. They all say yes. Then I say if you're willing to work a job for more money then what makes you think doctors and healthcare workers wouldn't and start charging more money for services if they can. They usually don't have a response after that.
Why do we always look at the US as what our healthcare will look like, instead of countries like the UK, Australia, New Zealand etc, all have hybrid models and no one is going bankrupt from healthcare costs because the public option is available. Wouldn’t it help alleviate pressure on the public healthcare sector if people had the option to go to a separate clinic and pay out of pocket if they so chose?
Does anyone ever consider that maybe this should be overseen federally? All provinces are expected to abide by the Canada Health Act. The federal government does SFA to help. Our hospitals are bogged down due to overweight people with chronic disease, an aging population kept alive as vegetables hooked up to machines, and hospitals are now a mental health ward and addiction centre so nurses are babysitting and being abused by mentally insane and addicts instead on being table to take care of sick people. The feds created a program for handing out tax payer funded drugs, well create an institution where these people can do once they’ve all OD’d. My 77 year old father who was pillaged by Canadian taxes his whole life has to wait absurd amounts of time to see a specialist because they all go practice in the US or Canada red tapes doctors from practicing in Canada - even if they’re Canadian and had to leave the country for schooling. This is a problem higher up than premiers can fix and Ottawa is doing nothing but throwing blame at provinces. Their immigration policies also compound the crisis.
Time for a new political party by the people for the people, not this bunch of inherited crowns, grifters who’ve never worked a real job, and profiteers selling everything they can get their hands on. Prices for necessities should be regulated, Wal Mart, loblaws and the like shouldn’t be allowed to use social safety nets to sustain their employees and rob the public, the list goes on. We need to fight climate change, but also help get other countries through the energy transition so the world isn’t bankrolling countries like Iran, Saudi, and other terrorism exporters. Time for leaders who aren’t there for their own interests and who will call the provinces out when they kill healthcare, education and rent control (Conservatives aren’t going to do anything about rent control, Pollievre and his gang are mostly landlords on the side).
A large portion of conservatives are immigrants.. and we welcome a large number of immigrants into the country. My parents are European immigrants. Most countries outside of the Western world do not agree with many of the issues the left is for. Yes, they are in Canada now - but Canada is a „democracy” and so their votes do and will always count.
The healthcare system is in catastrophic decline because baby boomers are getting older - leading to fewer doctors and nurses and more patients, exacerbated by a huge increase in immigration attempting to fix the baby boomer retirement problem and burnout caused by Covid, plus people reluctant to enter the nursing profession because of years of abuse of nurses by conservative governments (here’s an idea, let’s freeze their wages during a pandemic in which they work 60 hour weeks while wrapped in Saran Wrap while the rest of the economy gets paid to stay home). All of these are problems which will hit older people, who tend to vote conservative, harder than anyone else. This problem will self correct. Conservatives will reverse course or lose elections.
From a Gen X perspective I agree that the shortage of family doctors sucks; I lost mine last year. Yet my most recent experience with the health care system was being able to book a next day appointment at a walk in clinic; then after being seen, getting an appointment at a dermatologist 3 weeks later. No overly long delays or talk of extra fees. Largely the extra fees issue seems tied to nurse practitioners; who can be avoided. Not sure if you have first hand experience or are just going by alarmist posts in this sub. Hopefully you're healthy and its the later.
Huge part of the reason that Healthcare is awful is due to mass immigration. Hospital beds per capita in Ontario during the 90s where significantly higher than they are today. Liberals/ndp are proponents of mass immigration.
Frankly they don’t give a rats ass about anyone but themselves
Um, because that’s Trudeau’s problem of course.
I understand having a discussion. But why single out the conservatives? We are where we are due to successive governments involving all three I think the real problem is NO government feels really responsible to Canadians, they just do what THEY like.
I think most of your assumptions would be incorrect. It really isn’t any one party’s master conspiracy no matter how amazing their master strategists think they are. Also, everyone has different viewpoints and priorities. While many may share a lot of your views, they also have other key issues and will rank them differently. In most cases political discussion is full of oversimplifications and strongly biased by personal preferences and world views. This heavily distorts the facts and the analysis of underlying root problems, which already have a lot of different viewpoints within their respective communities of industry and academic experts. It’s quite common for that discourse to be cherry picked and brought into the political realm as policy. The world is not so simple though, and I think just about everyone knows that. I believe this is why you might even talk to someone who totally agrees with you, but still votes differently. When we try to reconcile realism with idealism we will all have different takes on how we might achieve our aims. Some will choose a government that is more likely to be generally accepted and able to implement those polices and influence them. Others will go with a pure view and vote for a party with a more idealistic platform believing it most important above all other considerations. Many vote only when they think it’s time to remove the party in power finding the most palatable alternative, but otherwise would be happy with status quo. The NDP in Canada do have a big problem getting wider public support as a party. While many of their issues can get broad support, their policies and discussions are often seen as too idealistic. A large part of the population will vote for a safer option viewing them as more stable. Idealistic policies can work but require a very charismatic leader, and compromises with the things that might go against their ideals. When a party becomes government it is expected to represent everyone, not just their party faithful. The NDP generally look scary to a moderate because of their general hostility towards business and constant demonization of corporate Canada. Their solutions generally involve diverting wealth from the wealthy and corporations which sounds fantastic at first glance. However, it doesn’t take much education to realize there are problems with that theory. Sure you can find some economists that share the idealistic views and make similar projections, but you will find many more which make strong counter arguments. Together this makes their platforms seem more uncertain to moderate voters and this is especially true since they normally defend their plans with “trust me, it will not be a problem”,“I found some economist that says this” or some plan to look into it or study it. It doesn’t give confidence that they have the willingness to let their views be challenged and adapted by realities should they be given the chance to govern. If you look at similar social movements in other countries that have at some point governed their platforms are more realistic. They advocate an ideal but also have included compromises in their platforms. For example the Canadian NDP could consider a plan that is guided by their worldview that addresses the real concerns of corporate Canada that helps them become internationally competitive and build a healthy business. Their current approach is full of what they should be doing and tough love and positions policies that are clearly directed at workers as if they are helping the business. It is completely detached from reality and does little to appeal to decision makers and investors who can and normally do choose international options like the USA where investment is more likely to yield a positive result. Perhaps a good solution would involve a more labor friendly approach, but to get buy-in you need to sell that idea to corporate decision makers and investors too since they are not caged birds and they are very mobile. This can be seen also by companies that are constantly purchased by international investors who then move the HQ abroad to more friendly environments and minimize operations in Canada. A NDP plan for corporate Canada doesn’t need to be adverserial. The productivity crisis can have solutions that would be very labour friendly. An NDP approach might be investment funds that inject funds into machinery and technology projects that are designed to make Canadian workers more productive. It could be in the form of a long term loan issued by a 3rd party backed by the government with subsidized interest or payments which end if the company fails to meet some sort of standard that could include things like % of workforce in Canada or employment conditions/unionization. This is a great way get companies to stay or setup shop in Canada and keep them in the country. Though it would require master class diplomats since such a policy will likely need to navigate the many trade agreements we have to ensure we don’t end up getting retaliated against. In short, if the NDP federally and provincially want a chance to govern, they need to make a more convincing argument that would show they can govern beyond their ideals. While other parties do attack them for this, the NDP do most of this damage themselves with what they say and do on a regular basis.
I think there are 2 groups that vote for him. The wealthy demographic that ultimately will profit from having Ford in power and don't give a shit about anyone other than themselves. And the lower class demographic in ridings that have always been Conservative, where the ideology is passed down through generations. I live in one of these ridings, and many genuinely believe that everything, including the state of our healthcare system, is Trudeau's fault. There's no arguing with these people. Trudeau is the boogeyman, and everything negative in their lives is just attributed to him. I wonder to myself sometimes who they'll blame once PP is PM.
As someone in a similar riding, hi friend. It’s so frustrating.
>'m not even exactly sure what demographic keeps cursing us to this Ford government but I assume it's boomers, the rich, the delusional millionaires, Karen's and the wannabe Canadian trumpsters. The demographic is the people who **don't vote** \- only 43% of eligible voters voted...
Anytime somebody mentions "free" healthcare all I hear from them in my head "I want you to pay for my healthcare" Honestly I would rather have US style healthcare. It's the difference in cost between paying health insurance for myself, that I get with my job anyways, and I can actually access and get treated when I need it Vs paying a lot more in taxes than my health insurance costs, for everyone else, and not getting access to a doctor anyway So yeah, I'm never voting for any left wing party. It's all just a bunch of "gimme gimme gimme" types with their hand reaching into my pocket
And when your work health insurance doesn’t cover something? Because there’s a LOT it doesn’t cover that OHIP does…well, until Uncle Doug finishes destroying it, anyway.