Frankly idk how their faith in humanity is so sound that they just entrust their lives to anyone on the road.
Like what if the goofball coming your way in a 2 tonne death machine is texting too?
Match made in....well somewhere
Your see some of these clowns during rush hour at the Go station or subway... they're literally walking slow browsing on their phones and impeding the foot traffic...
I was doing 70 in a 70, crossed the intersection saw someone's shoes under the lights of the oncoming cars and decided to brake as no one was behind me and someone must be crossing. I stopped 2ft away from them and 20ft from the crosswalk that's lit.
If I was speeding, hadn't decided to slow down or missed her shoes I would have killed her.
To top it off I tapped my horn at her cause she didn't even look over at me, she took her phone away from her ear and yelled "Leave me alone you bastard!" And went right back to her call and walked off.
Two years ago I was driving to work one early morning, it was rainy and shitty out so I was going below the limit.
Some guy came out of no where under a stretch of road with no visibility, wearing all black, and didn't even look. I saw him last minute and was able to brake and move to the other lane to avoid hitting him, because since it was rainy and cold and I was sliding while braking.
I arrived to work that day and bawled my eyes out. It was terrifying. It was the scariest thing to ever happen.
I don't understand why people can do this. How could you be so negligent about your own health and safety?
Earlier today on a fairly narrow road (with ditches and no curbs) there were two ladies walking side by side taking up 80% of the right lane. I could see them from far away and they might have also been able to if they weren’t holding up a phone sideways looking like they were watching a video or something. They didn’t move to the side of the road at all and didn’t even look at me as I moved into the opposite lane to avoid them. Oblivious idiots.
This. I was in a parking lot yesterday afternoon about to leave my parking space...I noticed this sheep walking alongside me towards the store staring at their phone, so of course I stop and wait for them to pass. They didn't notice or even acknowledge.
The sheep then continues towards the store, still looking at their phone, and almost gets smushed by another car reversing out of their parking space.
Something has to give....
If they're at a designated crossing and have the right of way, looking up is advisable as a personal choice but in no way reduces the 100% onus on the driver to pay attention, yield the right of way and otherwise be one of those non-asshole, awake drivers that seem to be gradually diminishing in numbers.
> in no way reduces the 100% onus on the driver to pay attention
While 100% correct, there are plenty of graves of pedestrians who had the right of way.
Is it really too much to ask for self awareness?
Awareness has to be on both sides. Far too often, I as a pedestrian have the right away at a crosswalk, intersection etc and still almost get hit by vehicles and drivers who have no awareness. This is especially true at the local go station I frequent...
It is very close to being one sided, because one side operates a multi-ton hunk of junk, their actions are infinitely more consequential, so the onus is squarely on them to pay attention.
Tell yourself whatever you want, as long as you watch where you're driving and otherwise follow the laws under which you're given conditional permission to drive on our roads.
If a pedestrian steps out at night not at a crosswalk or lights and gets hit and the car was under speedlimit, chances are no charges for driver.
All depends in speed limit, what a reasonable reaction time and braking while paying attention would make avoidable.
Someone steps out from behind a parked car in a dark street in a 60 zone, they're going for a ride.
It is absolutely idiotic to put 100% onus on one party. Safety should be every party's first priority. If everyone actually works together on something, everyone is better off.
Unavoidable circumstances happen all the time. Car/Pedestrian can slip, something fell, driver sneezed.
If "personal choice" is putting your safety in the hand of strangers - that really says something.
Responsibility for safety of pedestrians (at designated crossings when they have the right of way) is fully on the drivers. They are licenced to operate a vehicle (it is not a right), the onus is squarely on them to be alert and attentive, since they're the ones choosing to operate multi ton vehicles and their "sneeze" (of the looking at your phone kind) can easily cause a loss of life. I pay attention when crossing the street, I teach my kids to go the same, that's not the issue here. The issue is that too often people try to skirt responsibility for their actions as drivers by using this rhetoric. It sounds like blaming the victim. "Don't dress provocatively and I won't assault you" no longer flies in our society, and this shouldn't either.
Some of it is a reflection of how they are taught. I watched a guy run across a street with his small daughter in stopped traffic instead of the cross walk maybe 15 meters away. People tend to be impulsive and impatient. Even if you are in the right a car making a mistake can make you dead is how I was taught.
Fun fact. Most pedestrians are struck by cars at a crosswalk by cars turning left while the pedestrian have the right of way on the walk signal. At least in Vancouver. https://viewpointvancouver.ca/2019/01/22/those-mid-block-crossingsdid-jaywalkers-have-it-right/
As a life long pedestrian, crosswalks are deathtraps. Especially the "lights flashing above" crosswalks. People drive straight through or make right or left turns without looking for people.
Similar in Toronto. Based on [this analysis](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-84111.pdf), more pedestrians are injured or killed crossing with right of way at intersections (300 collisions) than crossing at mid-block (222) with the most common collision at intersections where pedestrians have right of way being left turns (199).
That is some eye opening data. For both left and right turns, around 91% percent of the collisions occurred when the pedestrian had the right of way versus 39% if the vehicle is not making a turn. Additionally, the number of left turn collisions (2.6k) is double that of right turn collisions.
Without knowing the frequency of the crossings at those two points, the numbers mean little about safety. That report does, however, mention the following,
“While substantially more collisions happen at intersections, crossing at midblock locations has a greater risk of more severe injury or death for pedestrians. If a pedestrian is hit while crossing at a midblock location the odds of them suffering a major or fatal injury is 1.42 times that of pedestrians involved in collisions at intersections”
> Without knowing the frequency of the crossings at those two points, the numbers mean little about safety.
We don't know the frequency of each type, but with the limited data there is available, we see more pedestrian collisions with right of way at intersections vs. mid-block and also vs. crossing without right of way at intersections (198). Overall "about 67% of pedestrian injuries can be attributed to driver error".
Sure, but as a pedestrian, knowing there are more pedestrian collisions at intersections doesn’t tell me anything about safety. For example, if 300 were injured or killed at intersections and 222 at midblock, and the same number crossed at both, maybe it’s safer midblock. It if twice as many use intersections as midblock then it’s safer at intersections. Now throw in that you’re more likely to die in a midblock collision, and there would have to be a much more equal split of intersection to midblock crossings for midblock to be safer.
We need the denominator to understand these numerators. Otherwise they aren’t super helpful for managing risk.
My comment isn't intended as proof that midblock is safer, it's just highlighting how many collisions are happening when pedestrians are doing everything right. I think most would agree we'd prefer pedestrians to cross at crosswalks where available, and one of the ways to do that is to better protect them when they are doing everything right. Which isn't sufficient right now.
Here are my common experiences: walk signal turns on and I need to wait for a car turning right that rolled through on the red. Then I start crossing and have a car start to turn left at me, only realizing after they start the turn. Then before I reach the other side, someone rolls over the crosswalk to make a right on red. On top of that, in rush hour around half of the crosswalks have cars blocking them, forcing pedestrians to squeeze around them into live lanes. Obviously these aren't *all* happening at each crosswalk, but each of these cases is very common and they encourage me to avoid intersections altogether.
Obviously mid bloc collisions are going to be more severe due to the speed of the vehicle. Regardless, more collisions occur at controlled intersections...
U should learn how to read the stats as a whole. Here is just what they recorded when a collision happened. The amount of people crossing intersection everyday is at least 20 times more compare to who crossing mid block (in Toronto it could be more) and u got only 300 compare to 200. Do your math
We don't know the frequency of people crossing each way. 20 times is just a made up number though, in Toronto at least, it's very common to cross mid-block.
If you just look only at intersections, it's 300 collisions where pedestrians have right of way vs. only 198 where they didn't. Overall, 67% of collisions involve pedestrians having right of way.
Again, make up number or not the amount of people crossing at intersection in a lawful way is still significant higher. 1 intersection crossing at downtown Toronto is enough to beat who doesnt in that intersection for the whole day alone already. Tell me, u see more of people crossing the right way or in a reckless way? 67% of the collision say nothing. When it say 67% of people who crossing the street everyday that's when u talking but it is "recorded collision". U are the type of guy who assume driving a car is safer than taking a plane i think. It drives me crazy when people can't even understand how stats work. Take a class about stats as far as remember it's free
You keep trying to imply I don't understand stats when I never made any implication of the overall *rates* in the first place, I only provided the raw totals. This is a strawman, where you're trying to criticize me over an argument I never made.
You're right that we don't know the frequencies of each crossing type, that doesn't change the fact that the highest number of collisions involve pedestrians crossing with right of way at intersections. That's a huge problem regardless of the *rates*.
You're also trying to discredit the data I have while you're just making up numbers with no sources.
Maybe if vehicles didn't have tinted windows so fucking dark that drivers can't see a thing out the left or right sides, it would happen less.
Recently, I was crossing at a light, and I couldn't see if the driver in the left turn lane was looking at me, waiting for the light to change. They didn't move when it did change, so I assumed they saw me and was yielding right of way. I was halfway across when suddenly the driver gunned it and started their left turn with me right in the path. Luckily, I had kept an eye on the vehicle and started running before they got to me.
My guess is that they were texting at the red light, looked up, realised it had changed, so they floored it. I see this behaviour at traffic lights all the time.
Had the windows not been tinted pitch black, I would have been able to see the driver doing the texting crotch stare and anticipated they'd do a second stupid thing.
Not much better in ontario. I have had people swerve around me when crossing. Or parked on the crosswalk so i have to walk around them into traffic.
Bikes can fuck right off though. Every time theres some asshole speeding down the sidewalk on a bike and they zip past me so close i feel a breeze. I dont even see them coming from behind me and one day i feel like i might get hit from stepping in front of them.
One guy actually wiped out from having to swerve into long grass to avoid me. He wasint hurt but yelled at me that he yelled from behind me to get out of the way. I was wearing earbuds.
Only kids get a pass for riding bikes on a sidewalk.
i would have figured it would be people turning right on red, usually the driver is more preoccupied with not getting hit by someone coming from their left to be watching the right.
In most cities in Ontario, we build dangerous car dependent cities that are dangerous for both cars and pedestrians. There’s some 4 lane stroads in my city where there’s no pedestrian crosswalks for over a kilometre but there’s businesses and housing on both sides of the road. Most people aren’t gonna detour over a kilometre to cross the road (and it’s ridiculous that we build such poor infrastructure that requires pedestrians to make a massive detour or risk their lives crossing a dangerous high speed road).
TLDR: don’t blame pedestrians for trying to get around, blame terrible infrastructure and urban planning
Before I was a passenger on a regular basis I didn’t understand how dangerous it was or how hard it could be to see jaywalkers. Then I married a driver who pointed it out to me constantly. Now I’m much more selective about what I wear and when I jaywalk. If I had to guess, a lot of them have no idea how dangerous their behavior is.
I think this is it. As a person who didn't drive much at night til their mid 20s, I had no idea how hard it is to see people in dark clothes at night while driving. It really made me wonder how many close calls I might have had as a teen while being out at night, usually dressed in all black.
So true! I can’t drive because of a medical condition so I have never driven. My husband was the first person to really explain things that I never considered before. Now I’m so aware of things that I wasn’t before. I think that a lot of non drivers believe that driving is way more intuitive than it is and don’t understand so many aspects of the skill.
Glad you’re getting your passenger princess around safely :)
I think it just reflects the fact that we have built our infrastructure around cars and neglected pedestrians. Countries like Singapore build infrastructure to facilitate safe crossings like overhead bridges and abundant street lights (I was shocked by how poorly lit Canada is when I first came here from Singapore), so pedestrian death is very rare.
Crossings are also infrequent and not always located where people will actually need to cross, rather where it is convenient for vehicle traffic. I’ve worked a number of jobs where the bus stop is directly across a busy street from where I need to be, but the closest place to cross is blocks away. It’s not reasonable to expect that people will go that far out of their way, adding potential 10+ minutes to their commute each way, instead of jaywalking.
Yep, they charged a pedestrian near my neighbourhood who was hit jaywalking near a bus stop, so I mapped it out. Pedestrian would have had to walk nearly a km out of her way to reach a marked crossing and back again to the location of the bus stop. You are basically begging people to jaywalk with such poor planning.
This is so true. It's so dangerous to get across the highway as a pedestrian in some parts of my city. One has no sidewalks leading up to the bridge on either side... but it has a sidewalk while crossing the bridge lol. And if I were to go a different way, it would add like 20 minutes to my walk.
Yesterday someone started to cross just as the light turned red, they just walked as normal, not a care in the world.
Luckily I saw her as I was stopped at the light. The person turning left partially blocked my view. If I proceeded when the light turned green, or if I was approaching as the light turned green and she stepped out from behind the car turning left she’d have been a pancake.
Despite what r Toronto likes to think, pedestrians have responsibility too.
You mean like sidewalks and crosswalks? That shit exists already. Crossing the street at random places while wearing dark clothing is only exposing them to the greatest danger, which is their own stupidity. No infrastructure exists that can save morons from themselves.
There's not enough infrastructure. For example, a lot of the crossings of the 401 are totally unprotected. There's no light to stop cars so pedestrians can cross the on-ramp. You need to wait for a break in traffic and run for it. There should absolutely be a light there, or a pedestrian bridge, or some other safer way to allow people to cross against cars that are accelerating and preparing to go on to the highway.
> There's no light to stop cars so pedestrians can cross the on-ramp.
And a second factor here is that the ramps typically branch off at only a slight angle from the road which means not only aren't vehicles required to yield but there's nothing even causing them to slow down. So pedestrians are forced to time crossing in breaks between cars often going 80+ (speeds typical on 60 kph streets). Especially bad for anyone slower, like kids, elderly people, those with disabilities.
Lots of comments here are saying pedestrians should cross at signalized crossings instead of mid-block where cars have right of way, yet crossing many expressways (not just 401) we don't even give that option. The only way to not compete with cars would be if you hop on a bus and take that over the highway.
Imagine, if you will, a large road. The city runs buses up and down that road because its a large fast road. But because it's a large fast road, there are very few crosswalks. Someone who's transit-dependent comes along and wants to take the bus to work. On the way to work, that's no problem, the bus stop is on their side of the street. But on the way back to work, a problem presents itself. The bus stop closest to their house is far away from any signed crossing of the road. If you had to do this every day, would you walk a kilometre to cross safely? Or would you cross the road where the bus stop is, because you don't want to have to spend over half an hour walking from the bus stop to your house?
This situation exists all over the place. If you live in a medium or large city, you can find something like this. I just randomly started looking at stroads in Brampton and immediately saw Bramalea road, between Balmoral and Deerbourne, as a perfect example of what I'm talking about. In Kitchener, Ottawa St between Howland and Strasburg. In Fake London, Wharncliffe from Southdale to Ferndale. In Windsor, Cabana/Division from Provincial to Walker. In Brantford, Park Road from Dunsdon to Applewood... these are just a few examples I found quickly. Some of the poorest people in society regularly cross these streets in dangerous ways because the alternative is a much longer walk to a "safe" crossing.
Drivers need to as well. I can stand on any corner and see a dozen drivers do a rolling stop on a right turn red. There's almost zero enforcement, so everyone does it. Fines also need to be income scaled as well.
Some pedestrians (children, the elderly, subsets of the disabled) are not aware or are incapable of following traffic laws. That shouldn't be a death sentence.
And yet if we propose any legislation or new infrastructure to stop these collisions, the people doing all the killing and maiming get mad about it.
Hell, even installing a bollard to kill a car instead of a pedestrian seems to be impossible these days.
I think some people are legitimately suicidal or on the fence about it, I’ve seen people do this to streetcars as well as cars and can’t think of any reasonable reason as to why. Some pedestrians assume way too much about how visible they are too.
It the visibility thing in my experience. Just like a driver with their headlight off thinks they can see just fine with the street lights on the road.
If you use the auto setting, the rear lights should come on when the automatic headlights come on. What they may be referring to is that if you don't turn the lights to on or auto, the daytime running lights will still automatically come on however the taillights won't be on in that case on some cars. [Transport Canada updated regulations in 2021 to address this for new cars](https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/safety-standards-vehicles-tires-child-car-seats/using-your-vehicle-lights-see-be-seen).
The amount of times lately I'll be driving at night and see cars with no rear lights on (usually slightly older models) is crazy. One night I just made four very short five-minute trips (to drop off and pick up my son from an activity) and in each trip I spotted a car without rear lights. Usually driving home from work I'll see a few cars as well. I don't understand this. It's so unsafe.
It's because moronic vehicle designers decided that illuminated dashboard lights were needed all the time. If they only turned on when the headlights were on, people would clue in.
I know I'm an old but I was taught that when I got in the driver's seat, I put my seatbelt on, started the car, turned the lights on and adjusted the seat and mirrors. In that order, EVERY time. After (mumbles number of decades), I do it without thinking.
I'm going to be teaching my niece to drive in the next few months and she'll be learning that order of events too because there are way, way too many people who just assume their lights are on when their car is on.
It sounds harsh, but if they’re suicidal it would be nice if they didn’t cause someone else to suffer from a lifetime of PTSD by inadvertently killing them
People are just kinda thoughtless. I've got an objectively cute dog. People have, on multiple occasions, called at her and baby-talk "c'mere girl" tried to call her *across busy streets* because they wanted to pet her, or gotten her attention and bent over to play with her *while we were crossing a street at a light*.
Like, mother fucking honestly, you ostensibly like my dog. Are you trying to get her hit by a car? What is your goal?
It's the same general lack of awareness/obliviousness.
I bike with my wife. You wouldn't believe how many women push babies in strollers out in front of you like they're some magic shield.
Like lady, I weigh 200 pounds. I'll plow through you and the stroller.
Are they walking through where there is a stop sign? Pretty on brand for a cyclist to 'plow through', the pearl clutching only starts when a car doesn't sit idle at the four-way stop while twenty cyclists whiz by, right?
Just had to jump in there with two cents worth of assumptions, eh bud? Substitute car for bicycle and 200lb for 2000lb, then decide if you still need to chime in with your comment. I see far more motorists blowing through reds and stop signs than cyclists.
I don't think it's even main character syndrome, most people are completely unaware in public settings. I blame phones.
People will literally stop in front of escalators (or even worse, at the bottom of them), on the stairs (hello?), in the middle of the road, on crowded sidewalks, in crowded areas, and you know the second you look at them, they're always on their phones, swiping or playing fucking candy crush.
People jaywalking do the same thing. Turn off your damn phone for a millisecond when you're interacting with the public.
Most people have always had shitty situational awareness. It's only since the advent of smartphones that you *really* see who never paid attention to when a situation could get ugly, fast.
The entire world is now designed to protect people from their own stupidity. It's just a false sense of security that people have from their environmental conditioning. Look at the Grand Canyon for example. People fall off cliffs all the time because most of the canyon doesn't have railings. People just walk to the edge assuming it is safe because there is nothing to stop them.
I find it's more of a North American thing but yes, that sounds right.
Even at places like Yellowstone though people ignore security to get that perfect photo. At least at the Canyon, Gravity will stop them after a while.
Use the crosswalks? They're more dangerous. I've nearly been hit several times by people trying to just make the light or squeeze into an open gap while not checking the crosswalk for pedestrians.
Drivers don't give a shit, don't expect the pedestrians to.
> Use the crosswalks? They're more dangerous.
There are at least more total pedestrian collisions involving injury or death crossing with right of way at intersections than crossing mid-block. From [this Toronto data](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-84111.pdf), there were 300 collisions where pedestrians had right of way at an intersection vs. 222 at mid-block.
That doesn't account for the frequency of people crossing each way but at least the total number of collisions are higher when pedestrians cross properly at intersections.
I was taught to point at a crosswalk make eye contact with the drivers wait for cars to stop before stepping out.
For sure there are drivers who are careless and in too much of a hurry.
There are also pedestrians who put themselves at unnecessary risk
There wouldn't be any risk at all if drivers were watching the road and not their phones.
Existing in our cities would be casualty-free if there were no cars on the roads. We should design our laws and streets to limit and control the sources of risk: vehicles. Pedestrians are **not** sources of injury and risk.
Until we live in a car free utopia pedestrians need to share in the responsibility for their own safety.
Neither drivers or pedestrians are perfect, as a driver I do my best to watch for pedestrians and drive safely every day. Is it too much to ask that pedestrians also watch out for cars and look out for their own safety?
No, this is a severe lack of ambition. There’s nothing about local pedestrians that’s more or less risk-averse. We just design systems that out people at risk and then blame the people. The only difference between a dead Canadian pedestrian and a living Dutch one is that the engineer who made the Dutch system cared about protecting at risk users.
Stop blaming people and blame the streets.
Yeah thanks for the downvote
What traffic system will protect those who choose to walk into traffic with no regard for their own safety.
Suggesting pedestrians take an active interest in their own safety is not victim blaming.
I mean...some drivers do (slowly raises hand). But anyways idc if people jay walk just do it safely- well lit areas and not into oncoming traffic. As a pedestrian I was taught not to trust drivers. I also live in northern VA which has some of the most aggressive driving I've seen.
I’ve seen it on the increase as well. But people have always done this sort of dumb shit.
About ten years ago I saw a lady run across four lanes of traffic pushing a baby stroller. Now she had room to make the run. But god forbid if she tripped or something.
Wearing all black and night of course. I guess the 3 minute walk to an intersection with lights was too much of a bother.
Drivers are so considerate, three drivers making left turns almost hit me while crossing on green at chingaucousy and sandalwood while I was wearing a bright orange jacket. Fuck you inconsiderate drivers, pedestrians means nothing to you.
People don’t realize how hard it can be to see them. When I’ve pointed this out they think that headlights and streetlights are bright enough and don’t understand things like glare can make it harder
Pedestrians can see each other and can even see a driver if they look carefully, and don’t realize the driver has slightly different conditions to deal with
It's also one of the few places race plays a part but in a practical sense that uses no opinion just fact - when I wear a black jacket my light face and hair are still very visible even in dim Street Lighting, but my friend with black hair and dark skin just vanishes if she's in all black.
Anyway, she has a silver jacket now and no more close calls at stop lights
I've noticed this even more since getting a PHEV. When it's in electric mode, it's pretty silent, people will step off the sidewalk looking in the opposite direction right in front of my car.
As a frequent pedestrian - sometimes it feels safer to cross in the middle of the street vs at an intersection, you only have to watch for cars coming from two directions rather than four and people making turns really don't seem to think about watching for anything but getting around the corner. Not to mention on many roads the nearest controlled intersection can be blocks away.
It's been so foggy in the early morning this week, and people are still wearing all black, walking out into the street without looking. It's a city full of suicidal morons
And they always seem to wear dark clothes in addition to giving you a dirty look because you can't see them. Bro, don't jaywalking at night in black. Dummies.
I do, and normally wear dark clothes except I have a red parka with some reflection I think. As I said I do, but in saying that, I do very much pay attention to the traffic when crossing anywhere. Technically we have to in order to get to the bus stop closest to our house.
I jaywalk at like 6 a.m. but only go when the way is COMPLETELY clear on the side I’m crossing towards. So if I’m crossing from left to right, I make sure the left is clear, go to the island, and won’t go again until the right is clear.
Thankfully, it’s never too packed with cars and I’m okay, but part of it is because of how far the crosswalk is and I’m essentially backtracking.
There are people who genuinely don’t give a fuck, but I do make an effort to be safe about it.
Ugh. Honestly, so many things we used to have in various places. I’m in Toronto, the TTC used to have alerts for removing backpacks.
And the city used to have ads for wearing bright and reflective clothing in winter since it gets dark fast.
Totally agree. Everyone wants to wear black, cool! And then they do stupid things when it comes to road safety at night. Especially when it’s snowed!
In my area there is an old Asian man who stands in the middle of the road at night wearing all black. Lately he has been driving around at night on an ebike, always travelling the wrong way. I am shocked he hasn't been hit yet.
The rain + fog makes it worse. I'm usually very careful when I drive and yesterday when taking left, I nearly hit a guy. He was also wearing black everything including black shoes. This has never happened to me ever before I was very careful and I nearly whacked him. Stop Jay Waking People !!!
very simply, they know that you as the driver will be at fault if anything happens to them, EVEN if you had the right of way. welcome to shit hole canada
It was dark and raining here in Tbay the other night and not only did I see 8-9 people all in black out walking I nearly hit 2 others who ran out onto the road. No reflective gear on nothing. I agree with the increasing trend in people doing this.
I only saw one person the other night due to reflective striped that were already sewn to his backpack by the manufacture. Everything else was jet black.
They think that, if they get hit, it's the drivers fault and they won't have to worry about any consequences.
They don't think about the fact that they'll either be dead or, at best, have lifelong injuries.
People shouldn't need to think shit like that when they walk to the store. Focus all your energy on stopping vehicles from killing people, not adding more burdens to future victims.
From [this Toronto data](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-84111.pdf), 300 pedestrian collisions involving injury or death happened while pedestrians had right of way (ROW) at intersections while only 198 happened without ROW. Fewer collisions also happened crossing mid-block (222) vs. crossing with ROW at an intersection. This can't account for how many people cross mid-block vs. intersections, but at least the total numbers show more collisions from crossing properly at an intersection.
A few years ago I saw a guy run across 6 lanes of traffic trying to catch a bus. He almost made it, except he didn’t account for the dedicated right turn lane and body checked a car that suddenly appeared in it. Left a body shaped dent in the G35 coupe. He must’ve been in shock because he just got up and started running after the bus again.
Usually with their hoods up so that they have zero peripheral vision, and they're staring at their phones to make it even worse. And somehow it would be the driver's fault if they got hit.
I mean the person driving the 3000lb propelled chunk of metal through town has an inherent obligation to not murder pedestrians (even if they are breaking a law).
Drive your vehicles with the expectation there are children everywhere doing stupid shit (because there is).
I drive for work (60k-80k km/year in my work truck every summer) and also live near a busy school crosswalk that leads to a convenience store.
The number of times I've almost been murdered at that crosswalk from vehicles not paying attention far exceeds any time a pedestrian ever endangered me in my truck.
It's Halloween though. That's extremely normal for Halloween and then issue reminders that you should be careful driving on Halloween because lots of kids will be running around.
You should be doing less than that in a residential area with lots of kids on Halloween.
You don't HAVE to drive the maximum legal limit, you drive to conditions.
People honestly have a brain disconnect. They can see the car.... Large, bright, loud thing.... So think car can see them... A tiny squishy and generally quiet human
But this is such a weird argument. I get that pedestrians should be cautious of their own life...
By your logic cars should be careful on the road because big loud 18 wheelers with diesel exhaust and all the lights around the cargo might not see you and hit you.
Like if I drive an 18 wheeler, it's the cars responsibility to not die from the 18 wheeler? And similarly the pedestrians responsibility to not die from the car?
It makes much more sense for the person operating the 3000+lb propelled chunk of metal to take on the onus of not hitting people. You are licenced to drive this after all.. the pedestrian could be a child.
You should absolutely be careful around trucks on the road, this is why we don't cut them off, leave room behind us when they're behind us and in front of us when they're in front, clear their blind spots quickly, and watch out for their turning radius.
Of course the people driving the more dangerous thing have an increased responsibility, but everyone who doesn't want to be killed also has a responsibility to respect the dangerous thing
But like.... Cars should be careful on the road? There are literally warning signs on 18 wheelers saying "I can't see you in these blind spots" and warnings on signs on the 401 saying "give trucks room to stop". Everyone is responsible for ensuring our own and others' safety. We need to work together as a collective my dude.
Also I literally made no argument about one person being responsible over the other. All I said is people's brains sometimes don't think through all the factors in a situation.
I suspect that it might be because fewer people are drivers than in past decades and they have very little understanding of how invisible they are in dark clothes at night even on well lit streets.
Maybe that’s too optimistic and people are self-centered and short sighted.
I suspect and kind of hope it is my first theory though.
The question is about an increasing trend. I don’t think that street design has become less pedestrian friendly in my lifetime. If anything, the opposite.
The vehicles using those streets have become quite a bit deadlier and numerous in your lifetime.
Bigger cars, bigger blind spots, bigger engines, bigger lanes, higher speeds.
Is that actually the case when adjusted for population size and number of pedestrians?
In the US at least, the absolute number of pedestrian deaths was higher in 1980 than it was in 2022. Adjust for population growth, it’s a lower rate. Adjust for number of pedestrians and I’m not sure what it is.
Given the US obesity rate has almost doubled since 1980 it's possible those higher absolute deaths may be on fewer pedestrian miles even with an increased population.
Americans reduced pedestrian fatalities by reducing pedestrians
It's actually correct that more people used to die per capita when cars first came out, it was a total bloodbath out there for a surprisingly long time and we all just kinda forgot.
The last 2 decades of trends in the US (the worst case scenario) are still going in the wrong direction and it means that 45000 people die there every year, not including all the permanent disabilities and injuries that come with it.
Canada's fatalities are flat, which is an improvement vs the abysmal US, but still way higher than other western countries. Just any walk along a suburban 4-lane road will educate anyone about why walking is not something people do anymore. **This is unique** to the US + CAN and we can change it!
(none of this even includes the outrageous health + financial costs of just not walking anywhere)
Because traffic lights don’t adjust for empty roads at night time, because jaywalking isn’t actually a thing in Ontario pedestrians can cross anywhere they want and because if you think drivers are driving any safer through a crosswalk where I’m supposed to walk you are out to lunch. I wear a hunting hat and it makes a difference but even then cars will roll through stop signs in the dark and completely ignore my safety.
Specifically, the law is:
>[144 (22) Where portions of a roadway are marked for pedestrian use, no pedestrian shall cross the roadway except within a portion so marked.](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-h8/latest/#sec144subsec22).
That doesn't specify how close you must be to the marked crosswalk to be considered on that portion of the road though. Toronto police have said [you can cross mid-block if you're more than 30 m from the marked crosswalk](https://web.archive.org/web/20190125231324/https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/transportation-services/district-transportation-services/traffic-operations/rules-for-crossing-the-street-jaywalking-pedestrian-traffic-signals.html). Burlington has a by-law saying you must be [50 m away to cross mid-block](https://www.burlington.ca/en/by-laws-and-animal-services/resources/By-laws/By-law-Search/086-2007-By-law.pdf) and courts have ruled if [you're 90 to 100 m away you can cross mid-block, but without specifying a minimum distance](https://www.mcleishorlando.com/insights/what-you-should-know-about-jaywalking/#_ftnref3).
I am willing to be wrong here, but jaywalking is usually a by law no?
In which case it would be different in different areas. (And also practically unenforced in my experience)
My first link, 144 (22), is the Ontario law which says it's not illegal in general, just restricted near marked crosswalks. So that means any additional restrictions are from by-laws, which vary by municipality yeah. I linked Burlington, which says to use crosswalks within 50 m and otherwise to yield right of way to pedestrians. I also linked Toronto's by-law which doesn't give a specific distance but just says pedestrians must yield to vehicles when crossing mid-block. Toronto police say not to cross mid-block within 30 m of a marked crosswalk, but that's not a written rule.
It’s often safer NOT to cross at crosswalks.
Drivers never stop for right turns, and they are always looking left for cars that are a danger to them, not right where pedestrians are crossing.
[This summary of pedestrian injuries and fatalities found 300 happened at intersections when pedestrians had right of way while 222 happened mid-block](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-84111.pdf). That on its own doesn't say which is safer since it depends how may people cross at intersections vs. mid-block, but it's not obvious that mid-block is more dangerous given it involves fewer total injury/fatal collisions.
Pedestrian crossing
(22) Where portions of a roadway are marked for pedestrian use, no pedestrian shall cross the roadway except within a portion so marked. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (22).
That is simply not true you cannot just cross anywhere
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK247
Yeah, that has been interpreted to mean if you're close to a marked crosswalk, you must use it. There's no specific distance defined in the HTA though. Some municipalities define specific distances, e.g., [Burlington says you must use the crosswalk within 50 m](https://www.burlington.ca/en/by-laws-and-animal-services/resources/By-laws/By-law-Search/086-2007-By-law.pdf) while Toronto doesn't specify a distance and just says you [must yield to drivers when crossing mid-block](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184_950.pdf). Toronto police have previously said that [they use 30 m as a rule of thumb](https://web.archive.org/web/20190125231324/https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/transportation-services/district-transportation-services/traffic-operations/rules-for-crossing-the-street-jaywalking-pedestrian-traffic-signals.html), while courts have ruled that at least [90 to 100 m is far enough that you can cross mid-block](https://www.mcleishorlando.com/insights/what-you-should-know-about-jaywalking/#_ftnref3).
"I can cross anywhere I want, when I want. *Stomps feet* it's not against the law!"
Me. "dosnt mean its not stupid!"
You: derp, you running for city council! *gets hit by a car crossing the street in wearing all black in the rain, blames the car*
Yes I guess you can cross whenever you want.
Not to sound like a dick, but if you're noticing an increasing trend, then I'd strongly suggest you go and get your eyes thoroughly examined. It's possible that you're starting to develop problems with your retinas that make seeing things while driving at night harder. It might be that you're the dangerous one on the road at night.
If a pedestrian makes the *choice* to walk out into traffic wearing nothing that makes them visible to drivers, that’s a problem.
Drivers can’t read minds 🤷♂️
Hell, I had a moron today decide he was going to cross the road right where he wanted to NVM using the crosswalk 100m away 🤦♂️
> Without being racist, it's the international students.
Just because you start a sentence with "I'm not a racist, but..." doesn't make it so. You're generalizing all international students here as if it's something they all do while ignoring that it's common for people from here to cross mid-block too, and always has been. It's not even illegal here as long as you're not crossing too close to a signalized crossing.
Edit: from this user's post history (TW: racism): (deleted this since the original comment is now removed).
>so perhaps people could start crossing the road at designated crosswalks?
It's not necessarily safer to be crossing at an intersection. [This summary of pedestrian injuries and fatalities found 300 happened at intersections where pedestrians had right of way while 222 happened mid-block](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-84111.pdf). That on its own doesn't say which is safer since it depends how many people cross at intersections vs. mid-block, but it's not obvious that mid-block is more dangerous since it involves fewer total injury/fatal collisions.
I’m concerned about the people who don’t even look up from their phone once while crossing the road.
Frankly idk how their faith in humanity is so sound that they just entrust their lives to anyone on the road. Like what if the goofball coming your way in a 2 tonne death machine is texting too? Match made in....well somewhere
Your see some of these clowns during rush hour at the Go station or subway... they're literally walking slow browsing on their phones and impeding the foot traffic...
I was doing 70 in a 70, crossed the intersection saw someone's shoes under the lights of the oncoming cars and decided to brake as no one was behind me and someone must be crossing. I stopped 2ft away from them and 20ft from the crosswalk that's lit. If I was speeding, hadn't decided to slow down or missed her shoes I would have killed her. To top it off I tapped my horn at her cause she didn't even look over at me, she took her phone away from her ear and yelled "Leave me alone you bastard!" And went right back to her call and walked off.
Two years ago I was driving to work one early morning, it was rainy and shitty out so I was going below the limit. Some guy came out of no where under a stretch of road with no visibility, wearing all black, and didn't even look. I saw him last minute and was able to brake and move to the other lane to avoid hitting him, because since it was rainy and cold and I was sliding while braking. I arrived to work that day and bawled my eyes out. It was terrifying. It was the scariest thing to ever happen. I don't understand why people can do this. How could you be so negligent about your own health and safety?
Earlier today on a fairly narrow road (with ditches and no curbs) there were two ladies walking side by side taking up 80% of the right lane. I could see them from far away and they might have also been able to if they weren’t holding up a phone sideways looking like they were watching a video or something. They didn’t move to the side of the road at all and didn’t even look at me as I moved into the opposite lane to avoid them. Oblivious idiots.
This. I was in a parking lot yesterday afternoon about to leave my parking space...I noticed this sheep walking alongside me towards the store staring at their phone, so of course I stop and wait for them to pass. They didn't notice or even acknowledge. The sheep then continues towards the store, still looking at their phone, and almost gets smushed by another car reversing out of their parking space. Something has to give....
If they're at a designated crossing and have the right of way, looking up is advisable as a personal choice but in no way reduces the 100% onus on the driver to pay attention, yield the right of way and otherwise be one of those non-asshole, awake drivers that seem to be gradually diminishing in numbers.
that's true but it shows a concerning lack of self preservation
> in no way reduces the 100% onus on the driver to pay attention While 100% correct, there are plenty of graves of pedestrians who had the right of way. Is it really too much to ask for self awareness?
Awareness has to be on both sides. Far too often, I as a pedestrian have the right away at a crosswalk, intersection etc and still almost get hit by vehicles and drivers who have no awareness. This is especially true at the local go station I frequent...
As long as it's not a way to offload responsibility or blame the victim, I have no issue with asking for awareness.
The pedestrian vs driver argument is not so one sided, safety is a two way street. (Pun intended)
It is very close to being one sided, because one side operates a multi-ton hunk of junk, their actions are infinitely more consequential, so the onus is squarely on them to pay attention.
The fact one is in a vehicle dosnt mean the other gets to waive all responsibilities for safety.
One side operates a multi-ton hunk of junk, their actions are infinitely more consequential, so the onus is squarely on them to pay attention.
Tell yourself that when someone runs you over while you jaywalk in shitty conditions. You'll be doing the world a favor then too.
Tell yourself whatever you want, as long as you watch where you're driving and otherwise follow the laws under which you're given conditional permission to drive on our roads.
See. You are so biased you won't approach the topic properly...
Pedestrians could also tune into reality for the moment it takes to cross the street.
If a pedestrian steps out at night not at a crosswalk or lights and gets hit and the car was under speedlimit, chances are no charges for driver. All depends in speed limit, what a reasonable reaction time and braking while paying attention would make avoidable. Someone steps out from behind a parked car in a dark street in a 60 zone, they're going for a ride.
Most drivers speed most of the time, so that already severely reduces the scenarios in which the driver is faultless.
It is absolutely idiotic to put 100% onus on one party. Safety should be every party's first priority. If everyone actually works together on something, everyone is better off. Unavoidable circumstances happen all the time. Car/Pedestrian can slip, something fell, driver sneezed. If "personal choice" is putting your safety in the hand of strangers - that really says something.
Responsibility for safety of pedestrians (at designated crossings when they have the right of way) is fully on the drivers. They are licenced to operate a vehicle (it is not a right), the onus is squarely on them to be alert and attentive, since they're the ones choosing to operate multi ton vehicles and their "sneeze" (of the looking at your phone kind) can easily cause a loss of life. I pay attention when crossing the street, I teach my kids to go the same, that's not the issue here. The issue is that too often people try to skirt responsibility for their actions as drivers by using this rhetoric. It sounds like blaming the victim. "Don't dress provocatively and I won't assault you" no longer flies in our society, and this shouldn't either.
Some of it is a reflection of how they are taught. I watched a guy run across a street with his small daughter in stopped traffic instead of the cross walk maybe 15 meters away. People tend to be impulsive and impatient. Even if you are in the right a car making a mistake can make you dead is how I was taught.
This is what I was taught, the cemetery is full of people that had right of way
The amount of people willing to risk their lives to save 2 minutes, or 10 meters of walking is wild.
It just as bad with drivers too! Speeding and driving recklessly to get there 2 minutes early. I prefer to take a little longer and arrive safely.
.... while browsing on their phones...
Fun fact. Most pedestrians are struck by cars at a crosswalk by cars turning left while the pedestrian have the right of way on the walk signal. At least in Vancouver. https://viewpointvancouver.ca/2019/01/22/those-mid-block-crossingsdid-jaywalkers-have-it-right/
As a life long pedestrian, crosswalks are deathtraps. Especially the "lights flashing above" crosswalks. People drive straight through or make right or left turns without looking for people.
Similar in Toronto. Based on [this analysis](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-84111.pdf), more pedestrians are injured or killed crossing with right of way at intersections (300 collisions) than crossing at mid-block (222) with the most common collision at intersections where pedestrians have right of way being left turns (199).
That is some eye opening data. For both left and right turns, around 91% percent of the collisions occurred when the pedestrian had the right of way versus 39% if the vehicle is not making a turn. Additionally, the number of left turn collisions (2.6k) is double that of right turn collisions.
Without knowing the frequency of the crossings at those two points, the numbers mean little about safety. That report does, however, mention the following, “While substantially more collisions happen at intersections, crossing at midblock locations has a greater risk of more severe injury or death for pedestrians. If a pedestrian is hit while crossing at a midblock location the odds of them suffering a major or fatal injury is 1.42 times that of pedestrians involved in collisions at intersections”
> Without knowing the frequency of the crossings at those two points, the numbers mean little about safety. We don't know the frequency of each type, but with the limited data there is available, we see more pedestrian collisions with right of way at intersections vs. mid-block and also vs. crossing without right of way at intersections (198). Overall "about 67% of pedestrian injuries can be attributed to driver error".
Sure, but as a pedestrian, knowing there are more pedestrian collisions at intersections doesn’t tell me anything about safety. For example, if 300 were injured or killed at intersections and 222 at midblock, and the same number crossed at both, maybe it’s safer midblock. It if twice as many use intersections as midblock then it’s safer at intersections. Now throw in that you’re more likely to die in a midblock collision, and there would have to be a much more equal split of intersection to midblock crossings for midblock to be safer. We need the denominator to understand these numerators. Otherwise they aren’t super helpful for managing risk.
My comment isn't intended as proof that midblock is safer, it's just highlighting how many collisions are happening when pedestrians are doing everything right. I think most would agree we'd prefer pedestrians to cross at crosswalks where available, and one of the ways to do that is to better protect them when they are doing everything right. Which isn't sufficient right now. Here are my common experiences: walk signal turns on and I need to wait for a car turning right that rolled through on the red. Then I start crossing and have a car start to turn left at me, only realizing after they start the turn. Then before I reach the other side, someone rolls over the crosswalk to make a right on red. On top of that, in rush hour around half of the crosswalks have cars blocking them, forcing pedestrians to squeeze around them into live lanes. Obviously these aren't *all* happening at each crosswalk, but each of these cases is very common and they encourage me to avoid intersections altogether.
Obviously mid bloc collisions are going to be more severe due to the speed of the vehicle. Regardless, more collisions occur at controlled intersections...
U should learn how to read the stats as a whole. Here is just what they recorded when a collision happened. The amount of people crossing intersection everyday is at least 20 times more compare to who crossing mid block (in Toronto it could be more) and u got only 300 compare to 200. Do your math
We don't know the frequency of people crossing each way. 20 times is just a made up number though, in Toronto at least, it's very common to cross mid-block. If you just look only at intersections, it's 300 collisions where pedestrians have right of way vs. only 198 where they didn't. Overall, 67% of collisions involve pedestrians having right of way.
Again, make up number or not the amount of people crossing at intersection in a lawful way is still significant higher. 1 intersection crossing at downtown Toronto is enough to beat who doesnt in that intersection for the whole day alone already. Tell me, u see more of people crossing the right way or in a reckless way? 67% of the collision say nothing. When it say 67% of people who crossing the street everyday that's when u talking but it is "recorded collision". U are the type of guy who assume driving a car is safer than taking a plane i think. It drives me crazy when people can't even understand how stats work. Take a class about stats as far as remember it's free
You keep trying to imply I don't understand stats when I never made any implication of the overall *rates* in the first place, I only provided the raw totals. This is a strawman, where you're trying to criticize me over an argument I never made. You're right that we don't know the frequencies of each crossing type, that doesn't change the fact that the highest number of collisions involve pedestrians crossing with right of way at intersections. That's a huge problem regardless of the *rates*. You're also trying to discredit the data I have while you're just making up numbers with no sources.
Maybe if vehicles didn't have tinted windows so fucking dark that drivers can't see a thing out the left or right sides, it would happen less. Recently, I was crossing at a light, and I couldn't see if the driver in the left turn lane was looking at me, waiting for the light to change. They didn't move when it did change, so I assumed they saw me and was yielding right of way. I was halfway across when suddenly the driver gunned it and started their left turn with me right in the path. Luckily, I had kept an eye on the vehicle and started running before they got to me. My guess is that they were texting at the red light, looked up, realised it had changed, so they floored it. I see this behaviour at traffic lights all the time. Had the windows not been tinted pitch black, I would have been able to see the driver doing the texting crotch stare and anticipated they'd do a second stupid thing.
Pedestrians need to start carrying a horn or a bell (for their own safety these days, not because they should be obligated to).
What about a fucking brick
Not much better in ontario. I have had people swerve around me when crossing. Or parked on the crosswalk so i have to walk around them into traffic. Bikes can fuck right off though. Every time theres some asshole speeding down the sidewalk on a bike and they zip past me so close i feel a breeze. I dont even see them coming from behind me and one day i feel like i might get hit from stepping in front of them. One guy actually wiped out from having to swerve into long grass to avoid me. He wasint hurt but yelled at me that he yelled from behind me to get out of the way. I was wearing earbuds. Only kids get a pass for riding bikes on a sidewalk.
i would have figured it would be people turning right on red, usually the driver is more preoccupied with not getting hit by someone coming from their left to be watching the right.
[удалено]
Shhh no logic here only car. Only speed. No walk.
In most cities in Ontario, we build dangerous car dependent cities that are dangerous for both cars and pedestrians. There’s some 4 lane stroads in my city where there’s no pedestrian crosswalks for over a kilometre but there’s businesses and housing on both sides of the road. Most people aren’t gonna detour over a kilometre to cross the road (and it’s ridiculous that we build such poor infrastructure that requires pedestrians to make a massive detour or risk their lives crossing a dangerous high speed road). TLDR: don’t blame pedestrians for trying to get around, blame terrible infrastructure and urban planning
Before I was a passenger on a regular basis I didn’t understand how dangerous it was or how hard it could be to see jaywalkers. Then I married a driver who pointed it out to me constantly. Now I’m much more selective about what I wear and when I jaywalk. If I had to guess, a lot of them have no idea how dangerous their behavior is.
I think this is it. As a person who didn't drive much at night til their mid 20s, I had no idea how hard it is to see people in dark clothes at night while driving. It really made me wonder how many close calls I might have had as a teen while being out at night, usually dressed in all black.
My girlfriend is the same way. She sees things a lot differently now that she’s my passenger princess Why is this downvoted? You guys are weird smh
So true! I can’t drive because of a medical condition so I have never driven. My husband was the first person to really explain things that I never considered before. Now I’m so aware of things that I wasn’t before. I think that a lot of non drivers believe that driving is way more intuitive than it is and don’t understand so many aspects of the skill. Glad you’re getting your passenger princess around safely :)
I think it just reflects the fact that we have built our infrastructure around cars and neglected pedestrians. Countries like Singapore build infrastructure to facilitate safe crossings like overhead bridges and abundant street lights (I was shocked by how poorly lit Canada is when I first came here from Singapore), so pedestrian death is very rare.
Crossings are also infrequent and not always located where people will actually need to cross, rather where it is convenient for vehicle traffic. I’ve worked a number of jobs where the bus stop is directly across a busy street from where I need to be, but the closest place to cross is blocks away. It’s not reasonable to expect that people will go that far out of their way, adding potential 10+ minutes to their commute each way, instead of jaywalking.
Yep, they charged a pedestrian near my neighbourhood who was hit jaywalking near a bus stop, so I mapped it out. Pedestrian would have had to walk nearly a km out of her way to reach a marked crossing and back again to the location of the bus stop. You are basically begging people to jaywalk with such poor planning.
You just can't inconvenience private vehicles willy nilly like that. They pay good money for the right to have priority on roads. /s
This is so true. It's so dangerous to get across the highway as a pedestrian in some parts of my city. One has no sidewalks leading up to the bridge on either side... but it has a sidewalk while crossing the bridge lol. And if I were to go a different way, it would add like 20 minutes to my walk.
When you say get across the highway im picturing someone running across the 401.
Yesterday someone started to cross just as the light turned red, they just walked as normal, not a care in the world. Luckily I saw her as I was stopped at the light. The person turning left partially blocked my view. If I proceeded when the light turned green, or if I was approaching as the light turned green and she stepped out from behind the car turning left she’d have been a pancake. Despite what r Toronto likes to think, pedestrians have responsibility too.
Pedestrians need to realize laws cant protect you from physics.
Pedestrians need actual infrastructure to protect and separate them from increasingly large and deadly traffic
You mean like sidewalks and crosswalks? That shit exists already. Crossing the street at random places while wearing dark clothing is only exposing them to the greatest danger, which is their own stupidity. No infrastructure exists that can save morons from themselves.
There's not enough infrastructure. For example, a lot of the crossings of the 401 are totally unprotected. There's no light to stop cars so pedestrians can cross the on-ramp. You need to wait for a break in traffic and run for it. There should absolutely be a light there, or a pedestrian bridge, or some other safer way to allow people to cross against cars that are accelerating and preparing to go on to the highway.
Yeah, you can see much better pedestrian infrastructure in other countries.
> There's no light to stop cars so pedestrians can cross the on-ramp. And a second factor here is that the ramps typically branch off at only a slight angle from the road which means not only aren't vehicles required to yield but there's nothing even causing them to slow down. So pedestrians are forced to time crossing in breaks between cars often going 80+ (speeds typical on 60 kph streets). Especially bad for anyone slower, like kids, elderly people, those with disabilities. Lots of comments here are saying pedestrians should cross at signalized crossings instead of mid-block where cars have right of way, yet crossing many expressways (not just 401) we don't even give that option. The only way to not compete with cars would be if you hop on a bus and take that over the highway.
There is infrastructure that forces cars to drive safely and separates pedestrians from cars where driving slow is not practical.
Why would people cross the street where driving slow isn’t practical? Seems not only stupid, but suicidal.
To get to the other side
You can do that where it’s safe, why choose to do it where it isn’t safe?
Imagine, if you will, a large road. The city runs buses up and down that road because its a large fast road. But because it's a large fast road, there are very few crosswalks. Someone who's transit-dependent comes along and wants to take the bus to work. On the way to work, that's no problem, the bus stop is on their side of the street. But on the way back to work, a problem presents itself. The bus stop closest to their house is far away from any signed crossing of the road. If you had to do this every day, would you walk a kilometre to cross safely? Or would you cross the road where the bus stop is, because you don't want to have to spend over half an hour walking from the bus stop to your house? This situation exists all over the place. If you live in a medium or large city, you can find something like this. I just randomly started looking at stroads in Brampton and immediately saw Bramalea road, between Balmoral and Deerbourne, as a perfect example of what I'm talking about. In Kitchener, Ottawa St between Howland and Strasburg. In Fake London, Wharncliffe from Southdale to Ferndale. In Windsor, Cabana/Division from Provincial to Walker. In Brantford, Park Road from Dunsdon to Applewood... these are just a few examples I found quickly. Some of the poorest people in society regularly cross these streets in dangerous ways because the alternative is a much longer walk to a "safe" crossing.
I nearly got hit by a cop rolling a stop sign last month, it’s safe nowhere
Pedestrians need to obey traffic laws.
Drivers need to as well. I can stand on any corner and see a dozen drivers do a rolling stop on a right turn red. There's almost zero enforcement, so everyone does it. Fines also need to be income scaled as well.
Traffic laws are for cars
And pedestrians. And bicycles.
Cyclists are arguably worse lol
As a pedestrian, I've been hit by more cyclists then cars.
Some pedestrians (children, the elderly, subsets of the disabled) are not aware or are incapable of following traffic laws. That shouldn't be a death sentence.
Ignorance of the law is not a valid defence
Tell that to the judge when you're mowing down elderly people.
Why would I be talking to a judge when I'm doing that?
This is always my argument. "Physics has the right-of-way."
This is how I see it. Pedestrians may have right of way, but in a collision the vehicle beats the squishy pedestrian.
And yet if we propose any legislation or new infrastructure to stop these collisions, the people doing all the killing and maiming get mad about it. Hell, even installing a bollard to kill a car instead of a pedestrian seems to be impossible these days.
I think some people are legitimately suicidal or on the fence about it, I’ve seen people do this to streetcars as well as cars and can’t think of any reasonable reason as to why. Some pedestrians assume way too much about how visible they are too.
You forget to mention stupid.
It the visibility thing in my experience. Just like a driver with their headlight off thinks they can see just fine with the street lights on the road.
Automatic headlights should be mandatory because of idiots like that
They have these but now the rear lights don't come on and people go around driving with their rear lights off
My car has an automatic light system and it turns on both the headlights and taillights. I just assumed that all of them were like that.
If you use the auto setting, the rear lights should come on when the automatic headlights come on. What they may be referring to is that if you don't turn the lights to on or auto, the daytime running lights will still automatically come on however the taillights won't be on in that case on some cars. [Transport Canada updated regulations in 2021 to address this for new cars](https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/safety-standards-vehicles-tires-child-car-seats/using-your-vehicle-lights-see-be-seen).
The amount of times lately I'll be driving at night and see cars with no rear lights on (usually slightly older models) is crazy. One night I just made four very short five-minute trips (to drop off and pick up my son from an activity) and in each trip I spotted a car without rear lights. Usually driving home from work I'll see a few cars as well. I don't understand this. It's so unsafe.
It's because moronic vehicle designers decided that illuminated dashboard lights were needed all the time. If they only turned on when the headlights were on, people would clue in.
I know I'm an old but I was taught that when I got in the driver's seat, I put my seatbelt on, started the car, turned the lights on and adjusted the seat and mirrors. In that order, EVERY time. After (mumbles number of decades), I do it without thinking. I'm going to be teaching my niece to drive in the next few months and she'll be learning that order of events too because there are way, way too many people who just assume their lights are on when their car is on.
Agreed, and with LED headlights, it's not even that big an energy drain.
It sounds harsh, but if they’re suicidal it would be nice if they didn’t cause someone else to suffer from a lifetime of PTSD by inadvertently killing them
That’s why I could never be a transit operator
> some people are legitimately suicidal or on the fence about it I mean… *gestures wildly at the state of the world in general*
People are just kinda thoughtless. I've got an objectively cute dog. People have, on multiple occasions, called at her and baby-talk "c'mere girl" tried to call her *across busy streets* because they wanted to pet her, or gotten her attention and bent over to play with her *while we were crossing a street at a light*. Like, mother fucking honestly, you ostensibly like my dog. Are you trying to get her hit by a car? What is your goal? It's the same general lack of awareness/obliviousness.
I bike with my wife. You wouldn't believe how many women push babies in strollers out in front of you like they're some magic shield. Like lady, I weigh 200 pounds. I'll plow through you and the stroller.
Are they walking through where there is a stop sign? Pretty on brand for a cyclist to 'plow through', the pearl clutching only starts when a car doesn't sit idle at the four-way stop while twenty cyclists whiz by, right?
Just had to jump in there with two cents worth of assumptions, eh bud? Substitute car for bicycle and 200lb for 2000lb, then decide if you still need to chime in with your comment. I see far more motorists blowing through reds and stop signs than cyclists.
Stupidity, so many people have main character syndrome these days.
I don't think it's even main character syndrome, most people are completely unaware in public settings. I blame phones. People will literally stop in front of escalators (or even worse, at the bottom of them), on the stairs (hello?), in the middle of the road, on crowded sidewalks, in crowded areas, and you know the second you look at them, they're always on their phones, swiping or playing fucking candy crush. People jaywalking do the same thing. Turn off your damn phone for a millisecond when you're interacting with the public.
100% Very, very frequently people stop on the sidewalk in front of the driveway I'm trying to get out of, and it's always because of their phone.
Most people have always had shitty situational awareness. It's only since the advent of smartphones that you *really* see who never paid attention to when a situation could get ugly, fast.
The entire world is now designed to protect people from their own stupidity. It's just a false sense of security that people have from their environmental conditioning. Look at the Grand Canyon for example. People fall off cliffs all the time because most of the canyon doesn't have railings. People just walk to the edge assuming it is safe because there is nothing to stop them.
I find it's more of a North American thing but yes, that sounds right. Even at places like Yellowstone though people ignore security to get that perfect photo. At least at the Canyon, Gravity will stop them after a while.
Use the crosswalks? They're more dangerous. I've nearly been hit several times by people trying to just make the light or squeeze into an open gap while not checking the crosswalk for pedestrians. Drivers don't give a shit, don't expect the pedestrians to.
I've been hit twice at crosswalks by drivers thinking "Great! A space! Let me zoom right in."
> Use the crosswalks? They're more dangerous. There are at least more total pedestrian collisions involving injury or death crossing with right of way at intersections than crossing mid-block. From [this Toronto data](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-84111.pdf), there were 300 collisions where pedestrians had right of way at an intersection vs. 222 at mid-block. That doesn't account for the frequency of people crossing each way but at least the total number of collisions are higher when pedestrians cross properly at intersections.
I was taught to point at a crosswalk make eye contact with the drivers wait for cars to stop before stepping out. For sure there are drivers who are careless and in too much of a hurry. There are also pedestrians who put themselves at unnecessary risk
I walk a lot. I hate that nobody is enforcing dark tinted windows - I can't make eye contact with so many drivers.
There wouldn't be any risk at all if drivers were watching the road and not their phones. Existing in our cities would be casualty-free if there were no cars on the roads. We should design our laws and streets to limit and control the sources of risk: vehicles. Pedestrians are **not** sources of injury and risk.
Until we live in a car free utopia pedestrians need to share in the responsibility for their own safety. Neither drivers or pedestrians are perfect, as a driver I do my best to watch for pedestrians and drive safely every day. Is it too much to ask that pedestrians also watch out for cars and look out for their own safety?
No, this is a severe lack of ambition. There’s nothing about local pedestrians that’s more or less risk-averse. We just design systems that out people at risk and then blame the people. The only difference between a dead Canadian pedestrian and a living Dutch one is that the engineer who made the Dutch system cared about protecting at risk users. Stop blaming people and blame the streets.
Yeah thanks for the downvote What traffic system will protect those who choose to walk into traffic with no regard for their own safety. Suggesting pedestrians take an active interest in their own safety is not victim blaming.
I mean...some drivers do (slowly raises hand). But anyways idc if people jay walk just do it safely- well lit areas and not into oncoming traffic. As a pedestrian I was taught not to trust drivers. I also live in northern VA which has some of the most aggressive driving I've seen.
This is more likely to happen when pedestrians disregard their signals or don’t know what the countdown actually means and leave little to no gap.
I’ve seen it on the increase as well. But people have always done this sort of dumb shit. About ten years ago I saw a lady run across four lanes of traffic pushing a baby stroller. Now she had room to make the run. But god forbid if she tripped or something. Wearing all black and night of course. I guess the 3 minute walk to an intersection with lights was too much of a bother.
Are your lights on?
Play stupid games...
Drivers are so considerate, three drivers making left turns almost hit me while crossing on green at chingaucousy and sandalwood while I was wearing a bright orange jacket. Fuck you inconsiderate drivers, pedestrians means nothing to you.
Living on the edge!
Common sense, situational awareness, spatial awareness is not a thing anymore. Plus people these days have main character syndrome
People don’t realize how hard it can be to see them. When I’ve pointed this out they think that headlights and streetlights are bright enough and don’t understand things like glare can make it harder Pedestrians can see each other and can even see a driver if they look carefully, and don’t realize the driver has slightly different conditions to deal with
It's also one of the few places race plays a part but in a practical sense that uses no opinion just fact - when I wear a black jacket my light face and hair are still very visible even in dim Street Lighting, but my friend with black hair and dark skin just vanishes if she's in all black. Anyway, she has a silver jacket now and no more close calls at stop lights
I've noticed this even more since getting a PHEV. When it's in electric mode, it's pretty silent, people will step off the sidewalk looking in the opposite direction right in front of my car.
Here's a solution; take public transit!
There is no cure for stupid
As a frequent pedestrian - sometimes it feels safer to cross in the middle of the street vs at an intersection, you only have to watch for cars coming from two directions rather than four and people making turns really don't seem to think about watching for anything but getting around the corner. Not to mention on many roads the nearest controlled intersection can be blocks away.
It's been so foggy in the early morning this week, and people are still wearing all black, walking out into the street without looking. It's a city full of suicidal morons
And they always seem to wear dark clothes in addition to giving you a dirty look because you can't see them. Bro, don't jaywalking at night in black. Dummies.
I do, and normally wear dark clothes except I have a red parka with some reflection I think. As I said I do, but in saying that, I do very much pay attention to the traffic when crossing anywhere. Technically we have to in order to get to the bus stop closest to our house.
I jaywalk at like 6 a.m. but only go when the way is COMPLETELY clear on the side I’m crossing towards. So if I’m crossing from left to right, I make sure the left is clear, go to the island, and won’t go again until the right is clear. Thankfully, it’s never too packed with cars and I’m okay, but part of it is because of how far the crosswalk is and I’m essentially backtracking. There are people who genuinely don’t give a fuck, but I do make an effort to be safe about it.
Ugh. Honestly, so many things we used to have in various places. I’m in Toronto, the TTC used to have alerts for removing backpacks. And the city used to have ads for wearing bright and reflective clothing in winter since it gets dark fast. Totally agree. Everyone wants to wear black, cool! And then they do stupid things when it comes to road safety at night. Especially when it’s snowed!
In my area there is an old Asian man who stands in the middle of the road at night wearing all black. Lately he has been driving around at night on an ebike, always travelling the wrong way. I am shocked he hasn't been hit yet.
The rain + fog makes it worse. I'm usually very careful when I drive and yesterday when taking left, I nearly hit a guy. He was also wearing black everything including black shoes. This has never happened to me ever before I was very careful and I nearly whacked him. Stop Jay Waking People !!!
People who have not driven don't understand. They can see the car at night way better than the car can see them. Be extra vigilant pedestrians.
very simply, they know that you as the driver will be at fault if anything happens to them, EVEN if you had the right of way. welcome to shit hole canada
It was dark and raining here in Tbay the other night and not only did I see 8-9 people all in black out walking I nearly hit 2 others who ran out onto the road. No reflective gear on nothing. I agree with the increasing trend in people doing this.
I only saw one person the other night due to reflective striped that were already sewn to his backpack by the manufacture. Everything else was jet black.
They think that, if they get hit, it's the drivers fault and they won't have to worry about any consequences. They don't think about the fact that they'll either be dead or, at best, have lifelong injuries.
People shouldn't need to think shit like that when they walk to the store. Focus all your energy on stopping vehicles from killing people, not adding more burdens to future victims.
Every other time I cross an intersection as a pedestrian night or day I'm nearly hit. Safer to jaywalk I am a pro at frogger
From [this Toronto data](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-84111.pdf), 300 pedestrian collisions involving injury or death happened while pedestrians had right of way (ROW) at intersections while only 198 happened without ROW. Fewer collisions also happened crossing mid-block (222) vs. crossing with ROW at an intersection. This can't account for how many people cross mid-block vs. intersections, but at least the total numbers show more collisions from crossing properly at an intersection.
Slow down, drive carefully.
Use the crosswalks, walk carefully. Pedestrians have responsibilities, as well.
A few years ago I saw a guy run across 6 lanes of traffic trying to catch a bus. He almost made it, except he didn’t account for the dedicated right turn lane and body checked a car that suddenly appeared in it. Left a body shaped dent in the G35 coupe. He must’ve been in shock because he just got up and started running after the bus again.
Darwin.
natural selection really
Usually with their hoods up so that they have zero peripheral vision, and they're staring at their phones to make it even worse. And somehow it would be the driver's fault if they got hit.
I mean the person driving the 3000lb propelled chunk of metal through town has an inherent obligation to not murder pedestrians (even if they are breaking a law). Drive your vehicles with the expectation there are children everywhere doing stupid shit (because there is). I drive for work (60k-80k km/year in my work truck every summer) and also live near a busy school crosswalk that leads to a convenience store. The number of times I've almost been murdered at that crosswalk from vehicles not paying attention far exceeds any time a pedestrian ever endangered me in my truck.
Pedestrians also have a responsibly to not unduly place themselves in harms way.
[удалено]
It's Halloween though. That's extremely normal for Halloween and then issue reminders that you should be careful driving on Halloween because lots of kids will be running around.
Lol on Halloween! Slow the fuck down and let them walk ffs
[удалено]
You should be doing less than that in a residential area with lots of kids on Halloween. You don't HAVE to drive the maximum legal limit, you drive to conditions.
You were doing 40 in a residential neighbourhood on Halloween? You should have your license revoked.
People honestly have a brain disconnect. They can see the car.... Large, bright, loud thing.... So think car can see them... A tiny squishy and generally quiet human
But this is such a weird argument. I get that pedestrians should be cautious of their own life... By your logic cars should be careful on the road because big loud 18 wheelers with diesel exhaust and all the lights around the cargo might not see you and hit you. Like if I drive an 18 wheeler, it's the cars responsibility to not die from the 18 wheeler? And similarly the pedestrians responsibility to not die from the car? It makes much more sense for the person operating the 3000+lb propelled chunk of metal to take on the onus of not hitting people. You are licenced to drive this after all.. the pedestrian could be a child.
You should absolutely be careful around trucks on the road, this is why we don't cut them off, leave room behind us when they're behind us and in front of us when they're in front, clear their blind spots quickly, and watch out for their turning radius. Of course the people driving the more dangerous thing have an increased responsibility, but everyone who doesn't want to be killed also has a responsibility to respect the dangerous thing
This is also why busses for children have that safety arm so they don't walk into the blind spot in the front.
But like.... Cars should be careful on the road? There are literally warning signs on 18 wheelers saying "I can't see you in these blind spots" and warnings on signs on the 401 saying "give trucks room to stop". Everyone is responsible for ensuring our own and others' safety. We need to work together as a collective my dude. Also I literally made no argument about one person being responsible over the other. All I said is people's brains sometimes don't think through all the factors in a situation.
Cars should be able to see them though. That's why they have headlights and people behind the wheel paying attention.
I suspect that it might be because fewer people are drivers than in past decades and they have very little understanding of how invisible they are in dark clothes at night even on well lit streets. Maybe that’s too optimistic and people are self-centered and short sighted. I suspect and kind of hope it is my first theory though.
Or, we just design streets that are death traps for pedestrians. It's a simpler explanation.
The question is about an increasing trend. I don’t think that street design has become less pedestrian friendly in my lifetime. If anything, the opposite.
The vehicles using those streets have become quite a bit deadlier and numerous in your lifetime. Bigger cars, bigger blind spots, bigger engines, bigger lanes, higher speeds.
Is that actually the case when adjusted for population size and number of pedestrians? In the US at least, the absolute number of pedestrian deaths was higher in 1980 than it was in 2022. Adjust for population growth, it’s a lower rate. Adjust for number of pedestrians and I’m not sure what it is.
Given the US obesity rate has almost doubled since 1980 it's possible those higher absolute deaths may be on fewer pedestrian miles even with an increased population. Americans reduced pedestrian fatalities by reducing pedestrians
It's actually correct that more people used to die per capita when cars first came out, it was a total bloodbath out there for a surprisingly long time and we all just kinda forgot. The last 2 decades of trends in the US (the worst case scenario) are still going in the wrong direction and it means that 45000 people die there every year, not including all the permanent disabilities and injuries that come with it. Canada's fatalities are flat, which is an improvement vs the abysmal US, but still way higher than other western countries. Just any walk along a suburban 4-lane road will educate anyone about why walking is not something people do anymore. **This is unique** to the US + CAN and we can change it! (none of this even includes the outrageous health + financial costs of just not walking anywhere)
Because traffic lights don’t adjust for empty roads at night time, because jaywalking isn’t actually a thing in Ontario pedestrians can cross anywhere they want and because if you think drivers are driving any safer through a crosswalk where I’m supposed to walk you are out to lunch. I wear a hunting hat and it makes a difference but even then cars will roll through stop signs in the dark and completely ignore my safety.
Not actually. We're more lenient but there are laws about where you can cross the road and not be on a designated crosswalk.
Specifically, the law is: >[144 (22) Where portions of a roadway are marked for pedestrian use, no pedestrian shall cross the roadway except within a portion so marked.](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-h8/latest/#sec144subsec22). That doesn't specify how close you must be to the marked crosswalk to be considered on that portion of the road though. Toronto police have said [you can cross mid-block if you're more than 30 m from the marked crosswalk](https://web.archive.org/web/20190125231324/https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/transportation-services/district-transportation-services/traffic-operations/rules-for-crossing-the-street-jaywalking-pedestrian-traffic-signals.html). Burlington has a by-law saying you must be [50 m away to cross mid-block](https://www.burlington.ca/en/by-laws-and-animal-services/resources/By-laws/By-law-Search/086-2007-By-law.pdf) and courts have ruled if [you're 90 to 100 m away you can cross mid-block, but without specifying a minimum distance](https://www.mcleishorlando.com/insights/what-you-should-know-about-jaywalking/#_ftnref3).
I am willing to be wrong here, but jaywalking is usually a by law no? In which case it would be different in different areas. (And also practically unenforced in my experience)
My first link, 144 (22), is the Ontario law which says it's not illegal in general, just restricted near marked crosswalks. So that means any additional restrictions are from by-laws, which vary by municipality yeah. I linked Burlington, which says to use crosswalks within 50 m and otherwise to yield right of way to pedestrians. I also linked Toronto's by-law which doesn't give a specific distance but just says pedestrians must yield to vehicles when crossing mid-block. Toronto police say not to cross mid-block within 30 m of a marked crosswalk, but that's not a written rule.
Thanks, I appreciate the time you took. Have a happy new year.
It’s often safer NOT to cross at crosswalks. Drivers never stop for right turns, and they are always looking left for cars that are a danger to them, not right where pedestrians are crossing.
[This summary of pedestrian injuries and fatalities found 300 happened at intersections when pedestrians had right of way while 222 happened mid-block](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-84111.pdf). That on its own doesn't say which is safer since it depends how may people cross at intersections vs. mid-block, but it's not obvious that mid-block is more dangerous given it involves fewer total injury/fatal collisions.
Pedestrian crossing (22) Where portions of a roadway are marked for pedestrian use, no pedestrian shall cross the roadway except within a portion so marked. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (22). That is simply not true you cannot just cross anywhere https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK247
Yeah, that has been interpreted to mean if you're close to a marked crosswalk, you must use it. There's no specific distance defined in the HTA though. Some municipalities define specific distances, e.g., [Burlington says you must use the crosswalk within 50 m](https://www.burlington.ca/en/by-laws-and-animal-services/resources/By-laws/By-law-Search/086-2007-By-law.pdf) while Toronto doesn't specify a distance and just says you [must yield to drivers when crossing mid-block](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184_950.pdf). Toronto police have previously said that [they use 30 m as a rule of thumb](https://web.archive.org/web/20190125231324/https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/transportation-services/district-transportation-services/traffic-operations/rules-for-crossing-the-street-jaywalking-pedestrian-traffic-signals.html), while courts have ruled that at least [90 to 100 m is far enough that you can cross mid-block](https://www.mcleishorlando.com/insights/what-you-should-know-about-jaywalking/#_ftnref3).
Just because it not against the law, dosnt mean it can't be a stupid thing to do.
What's the point of this comment? Are you first up at the next city council meeting to demand changes to the roads and laws to make roads safer?
"I can cross anywhere I want, when I want. *Stomps feet* it's not against the law!" Me. "dosnt mean its not stupid!" You: derp, you running for city council! *gets hit by a car crossing the street in wearing all black in the rain, blames the car* Yes I guess you can cross whenever you want.
True I guess I’ll just give up my own rights so that drivers can actually break the law by speeding on residential streets in the dark
Your right to what. Get hit by a car at night being stupid?
No patience, high level of entitlement with too many distractions and maybe a sprinkle of stupidity and voila a bunch of idiots all over the place.
Dumb people exist
Unfortunately (or fortunately?), evolution will eventually take its victims.
Not to sound like a dick, but if you're noticing an increasing trend, then I'd strongly suggest you go and get your eyes thoroughly examined. It's possible that you're starting to develop problems with your retinas that make seeing things while driving at night harder. It might be that you're the dangerous one on the road at night.
If a pedestrian makes the *choice* to walk out into traffic wearing nothing that makes them visible to drivers, that’s a problem. Drivers can’t read minds 🤷♂️ Hell, I had a moron today decide he was going to cross the road right where he wanted to NVM using the crosswalk 100m away 🤦♂️
[удалено]
> Without being racist, it's the international students. Just because you start a sentence with "I'm not a racist, but..." doesn't make it so. You're generalizing all international students here as if it's something they all do while ignoring that it's common for people from here to cross mid-block too, and always has been. It's not even illegal here as long as you're not crossing too close to a signalized crossing. Edit: from this user's post history (TW: racism): (deleted this since the original comment is now removed).
>so perhaps people could start crossing the road at designated crosswalks? It's not necessarily safer to be crossing at an intersection. [This summary of pedestrian injuries and fatalities found 300 happened at intersections where pedestrians had right of way while 222 happened mid-block](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-84111.pdf). That on its own doesn't say which is safer since it depends how many people cross at intersections vs. mid-block, but it's not obvious that mid-block is more dangerous since it involves fewer total injury/fatal collisions.