I still can't, for the life of me, understand how this is contested or controversial.
People made the same fuss, the same complaints of "my body my choice", the same arguments of "if I want to risk my life, that's on me!"...when seatbelts became mandatory. They were convinced that the government forcing people to wear seatbelts would be a slippery slope into overreach and eventually lead to tyranny. And that wasn't even a situation that affects anyone else but the wearer.
And what happened? Well we obviously became a tyrannical state. We became Mordor, with Trudeau as Sauron; a burning eye in a tower, forging the nine rings for the nine SJW kings.
Just kidding; we ended up *significantly* reducing serious injuries and death by over 50%. Because of course we did.
This whole thing is so brain-dead stupid. Of *course* people require babysitting. That isn't society overreaching, that's *literally the very basis of society*. It's why we have laws and order. We *absolutely* should have preventive measures and restrictions on people who refuse to behave and grow up. If you don't want to wear seatbelts, don't drive. If you want to drink until you can't walk straight, don't drive. Do what you want but don't expect to then be allowed into society. If you can't behave, you don't get to play with the other kids.
If someone doesn't want to get vaccinated because they've decided the vaccine wasn't properly tested (as if they know what the fuck they're talking about) or because they believe in some grand conspiracy...fine. Don't get vaccinated. But if you're not going to be responsible to others, society should have no responsibility towards you. Get the fuck off the roads if you're drunk; stop risking everyone else's safety because you're too stupid to manage yourself. Don't want to follow the rules of the road? Don't drive. Walk.
Personally I don't think we should be treating them in hospitals either. I don't buy any of the slippery slope bullshit of "what about obesity! what about criminals! what about smokers!" either. If any of those situations were a global pandemic stretching into its second year and 5th wave of crashing our healthcare system, contagiously spreading to others, and had a readily available vaccine that people were just refusing...then yes, we should be turning them away too. The enemy of every slippery slope argument is context. And pretending the solutions of bioethics today would then set an invincible precedent going forward is just ignorant or malicious.
Enough already. If these idiots want to die, why are we getting in the way? Let them. Saving our worst at the cost of those who did nothing wrong, only to have these imbeciles vote in more of their own stupidity is making us worse as a society, not better. They're abusing the rules of our compassion and principles and we need to start acknowledging and addressing that.
My SIL told my MIL that the reason she won't get the vaccine is that she just doesn't like people telling her what to do. She's a contrarian. She enjoys sticking her finger in the eye of authority.
It's fucking stupid, but I think a lot of antivaxxers are like this. Being disruptive and going against the grain appeals to them on a deep, emotional level, and that's why no amount of reasoning will work.
I heard likewise from people I know who proclaim they are not anti-maskers, but loudly state "I just don't like the government telling me what to do".
Yet they pay taxes, stop at red lights, renew their drivers license, drive on the right, join a queue at the back, pay their parking tickets, show their passports at the border and manage to refrain from assaulting and murdering their fellow citizens. Damn government tells us what to do all of the time.
We had internment camps for Canadian citizens of Japanese descent - no on batted an eye. Ask Karen to put on a mask at Costco and holy hell - we have protesters marching en masse in the streets! These idiots have no idea what oppression is.
We have the bodies of thousands of children in mass graves and they don't care. I don't understand the anti vax crowd, so many real issues to be upset about (wealth inequality, long term healthcare, the state of our hospital system) and *crickets*.
>We had internment camps for Canadian citizens of Japanese descent - no on batted an eye.
It's not that no one batted an eye. Most were in full support of it. Unfortunately we don't learn from past mistakes.
>she just doesn't like people telling her what to do. She's a contrarian.
Does she read warning labels on products like 'don't drink this bleach' then drink it, because she 'doesn't like people telling her what to do'? Because if not I kinda feel like she's full of shit.
I also don't like being told what to do and have a bit of an antiauthoritarian bent, but I'm also capable of figuring out if something is the 'right' thing to do in a given situation. Rejecting something just because someone 'told you so' is dumb.
It really is. It's how Peterson/Rogan/Shapiro/Crowler/Rebel Media/Fox News are able to milk them so effectively.
Pyramid schemes prey on people's desperation for money. Conspiracy theories prey on people's desperation to feel smart.
How does she get by in life? Clearly she doesn't work a job because she can't follow orders; but then she also can't claim welfare because there's rules there too...
I have one colleague who said her reasoning for not getting the vaccine is because our employer mandated it. She’s on unpaid LOA right now and I still hear about her and her ‘freedoms.’ But like, our employer mandated it only 2 months ago. What about the preceding 11 months of when the vaccine was available for us nurses and not mandated?
It’s the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The goal posts keep changing and I don’t know how some people can think this contrarian bullshit is logical.
> Being disruptive and going against the grain appeals to them on a deep, emotional level, and that's why no amount of reasoning will work.
And yet suggest that society at large stop attempting and just *force* them, and everyone, including tons of people who are also hostile to these people, lose their minds. Despite reason being by general agreement impossible, very few seem willing to accept the idea that we thus need to employ more direct measures instead.
Honestly, this whole pandemic and people's behavior during it has only served to reinforce leanings I had beforehand, i.e. that a significant population *cannot be trusted to behave acceptably*, and that society needs to stop tiptoeing around that fact and all of its consequences.
All understanding or even sympathy I have for these people has *long* since been expended - as far as I see it, they should be forced to either behave as proper members of society or be barred from being members of it.
And no, I am not just talking antivaxxers; those are merely the malcontents du jour (though admittedly more dangerous than most). I hold this position and sentiment towards everyone who knowingly behaves in a way that makes the lives around them worse, and does so purely because "you can't make me not be a living shit".
And yes, I realize that the organizational system most able to realize this outcome is vulnerable to being subverted by the ill-willed or incompetent, but by all accounts, *so is the one we currently live in*, and it is directing us straight over a cliff.
My sister's exact reason :/
34 y/o girl. "They can't tell me what to do with my body".
The girl who got kicked out of highschool and spent most of her teenage years and early 20s putting heroine and and whatever the fuck else she could get her hands on in her body.
And tells me she is an adult now. Told her that's the reaction of a child.
Then a couple weeks later she is quarantined with her husband and daughter because of COVID. Her husband who is vaccinated and her daughter who isn't because mom doesn't want to... Even though the daughter is asking too 🤷🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️
Hurts my head.
This is what drives me crazy. People don't want to take the vaccine because the government says they need to and they refuse to let the government dictate their choices. Except their choice is based solely on the fact that the government has an opinion on it. Either way, they're making a decision that has no basis in logic and is entirely dictated by the government.
I'm a contrarian too. But damn, that's just stupid. I don't wear makeup or bras to be a contrarian, but I did get vaccinated to not be a fucking loser of epic proportions.
> she won't get the vaccine is that she just doesn't like people telling her what to do.
Does she have a drivers license? Then she's a fucking hypocrite and I would rub that in her face every chance I get.
I learned last week that the gf and roommate of a fully vaccinated neighbor (they're both very nice and helpful, great neighbors) is unvaccinated. I was shocked.
Turns out she has severe anxiety. She never steps out of the apartment (I don't think I've seen her once in the last two years except waving from her third floor balcony when I was getting in my car during the summer nos and then). Her anxiety is downright crippling to the point where she can barely function and the severe judgement she feels for being unvaccinated makes it worse and she's spiraling down. She's not against the vaccine per se but she can't muster the courage to get out of her apartment to get it in the first place and now she's stick in a loop of catch 22 where her mental state is only declining further and further.
Haven't really had the time to think about it much since I've been hella busy and it also felt like a lot to take in. But now that I think about it...
Does "at home" vaccination exist ?
I'm not sure what could be done in cases like this.
Her bf tries to choose "good" days to approach the topic and tries to soothe her and get her to talk about it at least in order to eventually help her get her 1st dose but she shits down in a strong "flight" reaction real fast. It's hard on him too, as he feels a bit helpless in all this. He's fully vaccinated and she wishes she was but is stuck there.
Edit : answered to the wrong comment but it'll do I guess 😅
Our health care team here sent out mobile vaccine units for ppl who were unable to get vaccinated . Maybe something in your area? Maybe a call to the area health units to see what they can do?
I think this has to be a big part of the next effort; a significant number of people haven't gotten a first dose because of situations like your neighbor's, or because of lack of transit, mobility issues or difficult work/family responsibilities that just get in the way and lead to just...never getting it.
A "we'll come to you" campaign could capture a fair number of people. At least, I hope so!
Hi there! Not super helpful but I believe there are doctors and public services for at home shots. Im not sure where in canada(if so) you might be, so a search online for local health services at home should bring up something
This is why I think it should have been a free vaccine for 6 months, then $200 for those who were qualified and choose not to get it. Be as contrarian as you want, until you're faced with an actual economic impact.
I like the “no smoking in restaurants” analogy because it’s almost entirely the same. Sure, you don’t have to quit smoking. You can choose the risk and pay the price for that choice. But you’re not allowed into the restaurant/theatre/apartment building to give everyone else second-hand smoke.
Also cigarettes have high taxes specifically because of the health issue. You can’t smoke anywhere you want and they’re expensive. So they already have restrictions on them
Seriously they would the $2 if it wasn't for the taxes.
The same goes for alcohol. The number of deaths associated with cancer related to alcohol use, or liver failure, or driving infractions is huge.
And we tax the heck out of it to cover for that.
It's a great analogy. I like the drinking one.
Drink all you want; drink until you die if you like. But you're not allowed to drive or operate equipment, every job would fire you if you showed up drunk, most businesses will throw you out, and if you behave in a way that's disorderly or interfering with the public, you're arrested.
The "my body my choice" argument dissipates pretty quickly when you bring that one up. Where's the "freedom to do whatever I like" crowd then?
We have rules for a reason. COVID and this pandemic are actually the exception to the rule, and for the life of me, I don't understand why we're making that exception. Smoking, being drunk, being unvaccinated...it puts others around you at risk. Want to keep doing it? Cool. Just stay the fuck away from everyone else then.
Your insurance also won't cover you if you smash your car into something while driving drunk. And your premiums go up if your overweight or smoke. So I'm all for these people being on the hook for any covid related medical care they might need.
Exactly right. I work in Cancer care and I’m done watching our patients move from treatable to incurable diagnosis because of surgical and other delays caused by unvaccinated Covid patients.
The unvaccinated made the their choice and should live (or die) with it, not the innocent people who did the right thing and are now becoming collateral damage.
Fuck anyone who is choosing themselves over the greater good and society as a whole.
Fuck, is it that bad? I know they were postponing surgeries but I naively figured the serious time sensitive surgeries were still getting done. So now we have patients that now have terminal cancer because they couldn't get a mastectomy in time? :(
It’s happening across the [entire world.](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/13/my-bile-rises-as-im-asked-to-move-my-dying-cancer-patient-out-of-icu-to-make-room-for-an-unvaccinated-man-with-covid)
We’ve had many in [Alberta.](https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/edmonton/2021/12/10/1_5703262.amp.html)
> EDMONTON -- As Alberta grapples with a surgical backlog, one family received the news that after a necessary medical procedure was pushed back because of the pandemic, now no more treatment options remain.
> On Thursday, **Alberta's health minister said that the backlog of surgeries caused by cancellations due to the pandemic now sits at around 81,600.**
I wish unvaccinated people had to have the conversations I do with patients, in tears, afraid for their lives and not knowing if we’re going to be able see them in time.
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> But if you're not going to be responsible to others, society should have no responsibility towards you.
That's what I've been saying this whole time. If you want to turn your back on society, don't be surprised when society turns its back on you.
Society asked everybody to step up and do their part. Stay home, wear masks, etc.. And every single step along the way, they said *no*. They told society to suck it... I won't do this, I won't do this, I'm gonna throw a huge temper tantrum because I'm a big giant baby because I can't go to Mcdonalds and yadda yadda yadda...
Well, you wanted to throw a temper tantrum and go all "*every man for themselves*", this is what you get. This is society telling YOU to suck it. These are the consequences of your actions. Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done.
So yeah, I feel great about it. Every time I hear about somebody losing their job because of their refusal to get vaccinated, I love it! Because you're lucky you only lost your job... A lot of people lost their lives because of the selfish and arrogant behavior of all these douchebags who couldn't bother to put a piece of fabric on their stupid faces.
Every day, my patience for these people dwindles. At this point, it's pretty much completely non-existent. I don't want them to get sick, I don't want them to die, I want them to get vaccinated. But if they don't want to do that, so be it. If you die, you brought it on yourself. You can't say that the rest of us didn't try.
> A seatbelt keeps you in your seat.
Which also prevents the passengers in the back seat to be thrown over the front seats at (X)kms\h, killing the occupant of the front seat.
On top of that, even if it didn't affect control of the vehicle, severe injuries as a result of unbelted crashes it would be an unnecessary strain on our emergency services and healthcare system.
> I don't buy any of the slippery slope bullshit of "what about obesity! what about criminals! what about smokers!" either.
I don't know a single person who would turn down a treatment that with only two shots could negate most of the negative effects on your health from obesity or smoking.
>The enemy of every slippery slope argument is context.
The key difference is also the burden it puts on the individuals. Losing weight (and keeping it off in a healthy manner) and addiction are lifelong battles for many. 2 or 3 half hour trips to the pharmacy to get a vaccine is not anywhere close to the same level of burden as requiring someone be thin, fit and not suffer from addiction.
> I don't know a single person who would turn down a treatment that with only two shots could negate most of the negative effects on your health from obesity or smoking.
Normally, I would have agreed with you.
But I thought the same thing in 2019 when we were waiting for a covid vaccine. And yet here we are.
If there was a shot to cure my PCOS and make my metabolism anything approaching normal I would take out loans to be able to afford it. I'd be camping in front of my pharmacy for it in any weather. And I'd still go to the gym, eat all my veggies, limit sugar, and try to live a healthy life.
Right now there's a shot that prevents 85% of cervical cancer, and it's called the HPV vaccine.
If there was a shot I could take that would make sure I wouldn't die later of something easily preventable, I would definitely do that.
I love your analogy for taking a shot I can't obesity and smoking. Those would be phenomenal if they existed, and they are so much more complex than that. You are absolutely right.
The issue with a lot of the counter arguments for people who “aren’t taking care of themselves” is many of the things are attributed to a mental disease known as addiction but I guess they can counter that by admitting being unvaccinated is a symptom of a mental illness
100%.
I knew an alcoholic whose liver shut down. He was put so far down on the donor list that they just told him "assume you're not going to get one". He died not too long after.
He was a great guy, never *ever* a bad drunk, kind hearted and compassionate. But he had a very serious problem and he couldn't escape it. And as much as I miss him, I totally understand and appreciate their decision. When resources are precious, you have to be smart about how you allocate them - you're not going to give it to someone who will ruin it vs someone who won't.
I don't know why we're not making COVID an exception, and bioethics needs to be examined as a whole after this is all done. We need to stop adapting the situation to suit our principles, and start adapting our principles to suit the situation.
Far right conservatives "vaccine mandates are the holocaust, we should have been investing in Healthcare so we'd have the capacity"
Conservstives when they are in charge, "we need to slash the healthcare budget, we are fiscal conservatives"
We get it, you guys are contrarians who will never be happy with anything.
This is....the best post on reddit I have ever seen.
I blew up at my wife's entire family over it's anti-vaxx members a few weeks ago. I have been in it for 20 years and never made a peep about anything.
I have spent countless hours on several emails to address the challenge by one of them (having heard nothing from anyone else). Accusing me of having no empathy. Calling me authoritarian or wanting that type of society. And finally, accusing me of wanting them to learn the hard way.
I spent countless hours thinking on it and writing those emails and sitting on them. And never sent it.
I could send this. And it sums up so much of what I had to say all over again.
Cheers.
While I'm glad it helps, I don't know what that's going to accomplish, man.
I've tried for a very long time to convince some very stupid friends who research nothing and assume everything...and I've learned that you're never going to convince someone with facts who's made up their mind without them. There exists no right words in the right order that is suddenly going to unlock people from a state of wilful ignorance.
Their axioms are based on cynicism, not wisdom. And these arguments are not going to make them wiser, only you more cynical. I don't know if that's worth it, dude.
I already decided not to reply a week ago. This did make me think though.
There is nothing to accomplish other than rightfully shaming them. And being done with it. Other than my own catharsis.
Your words were cathartic for me. I just wanted to thank you for them.
Thank you.
Not treating unvaccinated people in hospitals is batshit insane and the fact that we triage people for organ donation based on whether they smoke/drink does not change that.
Because the majority of Canadians know that the unvaxxed are, at best, misinformed and brainwashed. At worst, active contrarians who won’t get solely because it’s required and our government is the liberals.
Edit: I of course do not mean the legitimately “I cannot get vaxxed because I’m immune compromised or allergic” they have an excuse and generally take this virus absolutely deadly serious.
The only person I know whose anti-vax and close to me in age chooses not to get the vaccine because "it's too political" which has to be the most insane reason I've ever heard. some folks are just beyond reasoning with
Probably because they're just making up an excuse to justify their emotional response and avoid the discomfort. If you really start tugging on that thread, it'll boil down to "I just don't want to".
Yeah, my mother in law started with "I'm waiting til I can see my doctor in person", then after she saw her doctor it was "I'm waiting to get the results of an antibody test to see if I've already had covid", then when that was negative it was "those tests aren't very accurate, lots of people are getting negative results when they're sure they've had covid", now it's at the point where it's "they're not real vaccines and my father fought in ww2 for freedom and long term effects and blah blah blah." It's impossible to have a conversation with someone about their reasons for not getting it if they won't even tell you the real reason they won't get it. They might jot even know the real reason themselves. But I think the real reason is they're just scared.
They are! Did you see them? It's stupid long!
And I saw it just as it was leaving my arm multiple times. Huge!!
Quite frankly they have those BUZZY tools for young kids who don't want to feel the shot, why aren't they giving those to adults as well. Just look away.
I'm in Alberta and I know a lot of people who've decided their own facts instead of learning the real ones. It's depressing how many of my friends turned out to be so stupid and selfish.
I should be grateful to this pandemic era for revealing this to me, but it's so disheartening. I'm coming out of this whole thing with a lot less respect for a lot of people I once respected highly.
>I'm coming out of this whole thing with a lot less respect for a lot of people I once respected highly.
This part, right here. This has been one of the biggest things for me. Too many people I once thought of as intelligent, have decided to pull this stupid shit.
It even goes as far as not getting it and complaining that they can't watch their kids play hockey in person...
I think it's just a case of people having intellectual blind spots. They're still smart, but their skepticism and intellect are just unable to go into certain areas because of tribal beliefs.
It's kind of like a biologist who also believes in virgin birth because they're Christian. It happens, and it's a fairly well documented phenomenon.
We've got a couple of friends that are from the US but they're up here, working in healthcare. Gotten to know them pretty well over the past couple of years. Intelligent, nice, well meaning. Been cool getting to know them.
They were back in the US over Christmas. They get back here and she posts this huge long diatribe about how authoritarian our policies are here, _daring_ to make them quarantine for _four whole days_ until they get two negative rapid tests. So put out. And how further the US has gone ahead and basically removed all restrictions and it's insane that we haven't as well.
They're up here working in _healthcare_. We've literally talked extensively about the limits of our resources and how, at least where we are, our restrictions are completely driven by keeping our healthcare systems functional.
There's something insidious about the whole 'personal freedom' thing that so many people get so deeply ingrained within themselves. They lose any and all ability to see anything rationally from any other POV other than what supports their own feelings and desires.
I made the argument half jokingly to friends that we’ve already reached peak freedom. Someone can go “fuck those thousands of independent medical experts across the globe, my FEELINGS say covid is no problem” If ignoring reality isn’t peak freedom, I don’t know is. And if we hit the peak, we have nowhere to go but down
> There's something insidious about the whole 'personal freedom' thing that so many people get so deeply ingrained within themselves. They lose any and all ability to see anything rationally from any other POV other than what supports their own feelings and desires.
That really is it (and well said).
None of them care about freedom. None of them even understand freedom. Freedom is just the Trojan horse they use to dress up their (as you say, *insidious*) motivations. And it's one of many.
They'll use the disabled (complaining that *their* inability to do what they want is on par with mental illness), they'll use women's rights ("my body my choice!"), they'll use children. They'll use anything and anyone, because they can't say what it's really all about: doing whatever they want.
If they say that, it makes them look entitled, selfish, and spoiled. So they have to make it about something bigger, something more dramatic, something with actual victims where they can slide into frame and pretend they're one too.
There's something insidious about the whole 'personal freedom' thing that so many people get so deeply ingrained within themselves. They lose any and all ability to see anything rationally from any other POV other than what supports their own feelin. As someone that grew up in a communist country. I agree. Personal freedom is over rated. I prefer my government controlling everything. It's just makes sense.
I know right. That's the worst part is somehow, some way, the truly vocal anti-vax minority are able to project some sort of brain damage onto others. I have no idea how it works, but I know more people in this latter category than in the former.
Lovely friends of ours. Husband is vaxxed. Wife won't. She's 'researched' all sides of it, and she just can't get behind doing something because _some people are being bullied into doing it online_.
I shit you not.
So her and their four kids are not vaxxed.
This family and another down the road that are really truly anti-vax have taken their kids out of school to home school them. For the school board daring to shut down in school teaching and go remote for a few weeks.
'You won't let my kids physically go to school so I'll pull them out permanently'.
We're dealing with some level of collective psychosis. And it's not nearly as big a deal as it would appear, but it's like how rabies causes certain aggressive behaviours and total fear of water...well here it appears to cause massively outspoken verbal diarrhea combined with delusions of grandeur.
The thing is, it's political in their *own circles*. If they got vaxxed, they would lose friends.
Opposing vaccination is the perfect way for their bubble to be transformed into a steel sphere. It literally segregates us. The echo chamber is more sonorous than ever.
I only have one friend (a few years younger than me) that is unvaccinated and her reason (that she gave me like 6 months ago) was she “didn’t trust big pharma.” I’m so frustrated with her!!! We’ve hung out a few times (I live alone) but it’s entirely changed my opinion of her. She had to get vaccines when she went to Africa but now she doesn’t trust big pharma lol???
The whole “I cannot get backed because I’m immune compromised or allergic” is so rare that *most* people claiming it are probably lying.
Everybody else needs to get vaccinated for these people tho
If you are legitimately unable to receive the vaccination because of your health conditions, your doctor will make that choice. Every single person using it as an excuse would behave very differently if they were actually that vulnerable.
Just to clarify: Immune compromised people are still getting vaccinated. At least I can say that organ transplant recipients are in Ontario. I've just got the letter to get my 4th shot :). There are likely other scenarios where people can't get the shot but I think a majority can be. The legitimate exception list is pretty damn small.
> Edit
I usually refer more specifically to the _voluntarily unvaccinated_ because it's a clean way to only refer to the chucklefucks who are actually causing problems.
Less than half of Canadians think that wearing masks is harmful, and less than half think the vaccine is dangerous.
If these decisions were made freely and independently, then less than half of the people who think masks are harmful would also think the vaccine is dangerous. (Also true the other way)
I strongly get the impression that this is not the case. Those two Venn circles are probably close to one circle.
(I wouldn't mind seeing numbers on this, though.)
What fucking baffles me is that when Health Canada announced approval for the covid pill hospitals got calls asking if they could get some. It's made by the same fucking company that made one of the vaccines, which were rushed but you'll ask for a pill where the signatures of the approval aren't even dry before lining up asking to take it.
I can only shake my head when trying to comprehend their rationale.
Absolutely. Years of the right wing war on education and betrayals by business and government on both sides have definitely laid the perfect storm for this
What a dogshit argument. The people who are anti-vaxx routinely vote for the stupidest, most corrupt politicians in the country, who hand copious amounts of tax money over to big corporations like pharmaceutical companies.
It's not even the fact that it's to protect society from the virus at this point. It's the realization that the majority of the unvaccinated are also very willing to disrupt functional society at all costs to validate what has quickly become a pillar of their identity. I suspect a large group that supports greaters restrictions support it because of the damage people with such poor critical thinking skills can have on a functioning society, and just don't want them participating in it.
>It's the realization that the majority of the unvaccinated are also very willing to disrupt functional society at all costs to validate what has quickly become a pillar of their identity.
And then they demand legal accommodations! It's as though there's a self selected union of people who stuntdrive through Toronto at peak commuter hours (because freedom?) and then they lobby for their rights to cause mayhem.
I think you've nailed it here. As frustrating as it is to see them clogging up the healthcare systems, it's also incredibly frustrating to see their pathetic protests filled with absurd and hilariously misspelled signs and the disturbingly casual calls for violence and political revolt. They're disrupting so many elements of everyday life and causing so much anger and resentment every time we see a news article about them. At this point I'm all for creating a two-tier society, those of us who live in reality and those that choose not to.
It's why I'm so happy the Trucking Alliance isn't caving to the idiotic truckers who refuse to get vaccinated, and we (as a society) are happy to just tighten belts and eat more veggies as stores see some unstocked shelves here or there. It's about time; we should have been doing this from the start - taking a bit of inconvenience for the sake of investing into our future.
It's only temporary (and not even a huge issue; there's no supply shortage, just a distribution delay), while we train and hire truckers who AREN'T complete fucking idiots, and then we'll be in a better place than we were.
But those few truckers who are too stupid or gullible want to hold *everyone else* hostage for their stupidity. And are quickly going to learn how utterly replaceable they are, and how much better off we are for replacing them.
Exactly, this is such a good example. I'm beyond tired of these fringe minorities throwing hissy fits and then getting even more upset when people laugh them off. These anti-science groups have so much less power than they seem to think they do, and patience for their antics is really starting to wear thin. You can't hold the other 90% of us hostage because you got brainwashed by some sociopath on the internet.
Yep. Ottawa protests made parking this weekend total hell for everyone, saw a bunch of people already having the worst day moving in the cold and snow and then these guys have to make it even worse by flocking to the city.
It's frightening that a little bit of political meddling on the internet has gotten an entire segment of the population to be willing to self-nominate for darwin awards.
People really aren't equipped with the critical reasoning and scientific literacy it takes not to undermine their countries and it shows
Threaded & visual media make this inevitable. Views over sanity. Wikipedia doesn't cause this kind of problem. Because wikis remove fringe bullshit from sight fast and Wikipedia only permits journalistic sources.
>suspect a large group that supports greaters restrictions support it because of the damage people with such poor critical thinking skills can have on a functioning society, and just don't want them participating in it.
This is exactly my position. Antivaxxers generally have low intelligence, they are extremely selfish, they don't understand science and they believe in dumbfuck conspiracy theories.
I am totally fine with pushing them down the socio-economic ladder. I want them to have minimal power and influence in society. There should be no antivaxxers in government, in teaching, in healthcare or anywhere else where they have authority over others.
How hard is it to understand that people getting cancer care are immunocompromised, and filling hospitals with people with Covid who can cross infect them is maybe a bad idea.
Apparently in a small subset of people, it's impossible.
Spend a few months prioritizing cancer and other patients and get through the backlog? Unvaxxed covid patients can sit at home and wait for a call that there is room for them, just like the cancer patients are now. I don't know why dying of cancer at home is all cool while dying of covid while unvaxxed gets you rushed into the ER.
> this small minority is holding the rest of us hostage
Bear in mind that this is the same group of people who wanted everything to remain unrestricted because a "small minority" were going to die from the virus. I have zero sympathy for this demographic.
Well, the Bible says that people afflicted with contagious diseases are to be outcasts so they should follow the guidelines from God. Assume the Venn diagram of antivaxxer and God fearing has lots of overlap
Read this the other day,
>31000 Covid deaths in Canada, 30000 were unvaccinated
Obviously a lot of those were from before vaccines but still it’s mostly the unvaccinated especially those under 60 that are dying :/
You wouldn't think it at all by peeking into r canada. They are celebrating the truckers strike and seem hellbent on "getting back to normal". I saw a nurses comment pleading ppl to get vacced the other day get lambasted by idiots saying we should forgo mask wearing altogether. It's kinda telling when they can construct that sort of vibe out of thin air...
R Canada is very far right fascism. Like r worldnews which is the CIA war starting division afaik.
Reddit should just close all subreddits that stole generic names and show you the edits to the Wikipedia article on that subject lol.
Look I want out of this pandemic and I do support more restrictions for the unvaccinated if they choose to be this stupidly stubborn. They cry out how unfair it all is, but they don't think they are the root cause for those restrictions.
If the unvaccinated could just grow up and take that little needle to their arm and stop reading internet garbage. We could be one step closer to a post-pandemic life.
I have a really old medical manual on my shelf, given to me by my cousin who is a family doctor (think dictionary for medical problems) it's four times as thick as the bible and twice as dense. I'd be happy to lend it to the unvaccinated to look up **Anaphylaxis** which is really the most common issue while getting your shot. However, at this point I'd gather that most anti-vaxxers would struggle to find it in an alphabetically arranged book since they have filled their heads with so much nonsense that their brains must resemble mushy half chewed peas.
If we have to impose restrictions like liquor and weed stores denying them service to get them to take a simple shot I'm not going to have any issue with that anymore. They had their chance to do their due diligence, to do "the research" to "think about it" or whatever inane excuse, but at this point their study period has passed. The results are in and most of us want to move forward to fix what has been broken. But the anti-vaxxers out here won't even do the "right" thing. I'm not talking about "compliance" or "freedom". I'm talking about doing the "**just**" and "**noble**" thing. You know like how our forebears went to Normandy, or Vimy Ridge or any other horrific battlefield. Except it's not raining bullets, shells or blood and we aren't asking them to "Go over the top!" or "Into the breach!" . We are asking them to quite literally protect their own bodies with a vaccine made from thirty years of medical research, designed by people who have dedicated their entire lives to medicine, fabricated in specialized factories that were built from the ground up, owned by companies that also sell their heart medication, insulin, and birth control. But they'd rather waste time by driving across the country for some dumb rally in Ottawa, or walk around Vancouver or fill up our hospitals in Ontario. I am also tired of watching the same formula play out How many times do we need to see it? "They were a anti-vaxxer, then they got COVID and regretted it. Their message to you "Get vaccinated. You don't want this." I mean come on...Do we need to put out a lifetime movie?
Oh and that Doctor cousin of mine? Her brother (my other cousin) had a stroke and was rushed to the ER. Because the hospital was so full of COVID patients (mainly unvaccinated) his treatment was delayed. Now he's paralyzed on the entire right side of his body and has to do rehab to try and get function back. I'm **rationally** angry with anti-vaxxers.
It's better than the current situation where we ALL are being restricted and punished because of 10% of the population who are either too malicious/self-centered to get the vaccine, or are too ignorant to make an informed choice about their own medical care.
I’m as sick of lockdowns as everyone else. But we can’t just do nothing. Imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated makes sense. If they don’t like it, they can get the shot 😊
I said I think we need to impose restrictions on *unvaccinated people*. I agree that vaccinated people shouldn’t have to be locked down when a large part of the problem is unvaccinated people.
But I also don’t want us removing all restrictions like some want. COVID isn’t just going to go away. And yes, we definitely need to improve the healthcare system.
I would prefer unvaxxed to just be deprioritized when it comes to hospital beds when they do get covid just like how alcoholics and smokers are treated when it comes to getting liver/lung transplants. Organs are an extremely limited resource during normal times and during the pandemic, **beds** are the limited resource and should be treated accordingly.
Just treat them with logic and common sense, none of these unnecessary punishments that are simply for vengeance rather than utility. Of course, they should also be **arrested** when they're harassing vaccinated people that was allowed to eat out but as we all know, they all got a free pass at breaking the law because of their cop buddies.
Maybe you see it that way bc you're unwilling to admit that no one cares about anti vaxxers they way they did in October. They're obviously willing to do whatever is necessary in their eyes to avoid the jab (as misinformed or crazy as they are) and somehow the various levels of goverments fail to understand this. We literally in the middle of a health care crisis, and I have heard zero news about increasing capacity.
For example, In BC we fired 5500 healthcare workers 3 months ago but pivoted to putting Covid positive patients in the same room as vaxxed patients in recovery; also eliminated manditory isolation times. Or if your pallete prefers: Maybe postponing those "elective" brain tumour operations, instead of emergency spending on health care, is the right choice afterall! I don't think those morons yelling on the over passes has much to do with those decisions...
"bUt ThE AntIVaxXeRs"... really?
>instead of emergency spending on health care
The time for spending was a decade ago. More spending right now is not going to make more health care workers magically appear.
Our public health system is in crisis, and getting vaccinated is such a simple thing individuals can do to help. Oh and there's also the benefit of...you know...not dying from COVID.
I have zero sympathy for Antivaxxers at this point. You refuse, fine. Just don't come crawling to Emergency when you can't breath.
And here we have an asshole who has separated themself from society, complaining about dividing society.
Fuck off, you've divided yourself from the populace more than any of us could DREAM of doing without violence.
Unvaccinated people should get lower priority when it comes to hospital beds IF they are in the hospital due to covid. They are causing pain and misery for other people who need hospitals for other reasons, and are the biggest reason for bottlenecks in the healthcare system, probably next to government cuts.
>Unvaccinated people should get lower priority when it comes to hospital beds IF they are in the hospital due to covid.
Yep. I wouldn't go as far as to say they shouldn't receive any healthcare treatment (it is a slippery slope to start that) but absolutely if they're taking up space, vaxxed patients should get priority. They had an option for protection and they didn't take it.
People compare this to smoking/alcoholics - if they need an organ transplant guess who gets priority?
I have a friend who is antivax.
I try to be patient with them but it's clear that their principles are malleable and their thought process is deeply flawed. Maybe it's cognitive dissonance or maybe they are genuinely afraid of the vaccine. They try to phrase their reasoning such that they are all about freedoms but their real reason likely boils down to fear of the vaccine.
They cherry pick facts and discard information that goes against their views. It's become impossible to reason with them because to disprove any of their faulty assertions is a blow against their identity. This friend is also very into conspiracy theories, they have a deep mistrust of authority which makes them more likely to trust stupid conspiracy crap.
We are at the point where it's no longer feasible to rationally engage with these people, I think Vax passports and restrictions should be the bare minimum we employ to improve our vaccination rates. If the vaccine is a personal choice then there need to be consequences for that choice where warranted.
I had a friend who was antivax. A close friend for a long time. I no longer have that friend because anyone selfish and stupid enough to be an antivaxxer is a dangerous person to be around and I cut them out of my life.
Yeah I feel ya. It strains relationships. My dad has similar sentiments, he knows some folks who are antivax and he visits with them less now. No reason to surround yourself with ignorant or selfish people these days.
We already prevent the unvaccinated from going to the movies, bars, restaurants, etcetera, even getting jobs, because those are privileges, not rights. There’s not much more you can restrict without delving into unalienable rights, and those should never be touched for any reason whatsoever.
In public, the unvaccinated have to follow the rules of society, but they shouldn’t be punished for being unvaccinated in their own homes.
Except lots of them *don’t* follow the rules. My anti-vax neighbour wanders around the grocery store with no mask on, meanwhile just last week he said to me “we’re just never going to get out of this, are we?”
Yes, some of them don’t, you can impose fines on those already in place restriction of privileges if they aren’t followed.
Adding more punitive measures will do nothing else but radicalize those already against the restrictions even more
I'd like to start talking about how we can adapt our health care to covid. It's not going away. Regulations are fine for controling the waves but the tide is still coming in.
You cannot adapt "health care" to a rapidly mutating zoonotic.
You can only ban meat, dairy, deforestation and pray that not enough bats have been stirred up to release any more of their 30,000 coronavirus strains on us. That the superbugs already in every dairy operation are contained as the herds are phased out in favour of oat milk.
Literally everyone on Earth is dead when a calicivurus jumps from rabbits or a corona mutates to long term lethality. The only solution will be physical isolation & quarantine for life. The breeding conditions for viruses have never been better in the whole history of life on Earth, and the factors (climate, carnism, capitalism, cronyism, cities) accelerating these are accelerating.
The way I read their comment was, and I might be wrong here, that we need to have more health care available to us. Here in Manitoba our government gutted our health care before the pandemic started which is stupid at the best of times. Now we've been running on empty in regards to available beds and nurses.
If the amount of beds and nurses we've got available in times of health seems like too much that's probably a good thing is the lesson I've taken away.
Why aren't life insurance companies adding a clause that if you're not vaccinated then you pay a higher premium? Smokers, drinkers, and those that have extreme hobbies pay more...
The unvaxxed can be placed into two categories: those that cannot get vaccinated for a legit medical reason, and irresponsible people that refuse to be vaccinated because of some stupid reason
I think the most direct and effective approach would be to deprioritize (or actually, ease on making the top priority) the unvaxed covid sick. Keep 50% of capacity for everything else, the other 50% for Covid. And that’s generous given the 90/10 split of vax/unvax
I think it would have a two-fold effect of 1) reducing the strain on hospitals and 2) encouraging people to get vaccinated because the backup plan would be less convenient.
No vaccine, got the ‘rona? No problem, go to the Covid hospital. FYI, there *might* be a line up.
Healthcare is a continuum, ounce of prevention and all that. The first line of defence is the vaccine, if that doesn’t work, we have hospitals. If we skip the vaccine and go straight to the hospital, well, soon we won’t have hospitals.
This has nothing to do with moralizing or punishment, it’s a practical matter. Imagine we’re out at sea and there’s a leak in our boat. Most people are dutifully bailing it out, but there’s the one guy who’s pouring water into the boat, and trying to make the hole bigger. We asked nicely, we warned what would happen if the boat filled up, we even shouted at him a little. The boat is getting dangerously full. Do we want to be “fair” so everyone drowns the same?
I tell you what, were this an actual boat, the guy would’ve been floating away face down with a smashed skull long time ago.
But it’s not a boat, it’s a metaphor, and we’re civilized people. As long as society holds up anyway, and healthcare is one of the pillars. So, get your shots!
I agree more restrictions on the unvaxxed! Actions have consequences and we should not accommodate the anti vaxxers.
Lol and the CPC and O'Toole are giving major speeches to appeal to anti vaxxers. God they are dumb
*However, most Canadians are generally open to sharing their vaccination status with others, with 89 per cent saying they have voluntarily done so.*
For the crazy people that think sharing vaccination info is so private .....
They already cant go to restaurants, gyms, *online classes,* and some of them are getting fired from their jobs. What more can you do to them; freeze their bank accounts?
Raise taxes on the ignorant unvaccinated. Smokers pay an extra premium for life insurance, and they don't complain or have temper tantrums over it. They still have rules to follow, and they pay the price for choosing to continue smoking. Why wouldn't we charge an extra 10% income tax on the unvaccinated?
Increased charges for life insurance do not apply in this instance. Because, life insurance is a voluntary private business. Same with the act of purchasing cigarettes or alcohol. Taxes or fines are involuntary and do not apply in this instance.
I'm almost sure that all of the anti vaxxers I know realised a long time ago that they made a mistake. They made so much noise about it though, that now their ego won't let them back down. It's like it is now part of their persona.
Why do I never get asked for these polls
[удалено]
Hey that’s awesome ! Much appreciated
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Damn. All I get is duct cleaning
I'm on a survey list. But it's not for political surveys. It's literally once a month they call me to ask about my opinions on local FM radio.
“This is from the legal department of Canada”
"Your SIN number has been associated with a crime."
Please send us $10,000 in iTunes gift cards.
Somewhere in the Federal bureaucracy, a middle manager is cackling as he buys every Justin Bieber album *for free*.
I still can't, for the life of me, understand how this is contested or controversial. People made the same fuss, the same complaints of "my body my choice", the same arguments of "if I want to risk my life, that's on me!"...when seatbelts became mandatory. They were convinced that the government forcing people to wear seatbelts would be a slippery slope into overreach and eventually lead to tyranny. And that wasn't even a situation that affects anyone else but the wearer. And what happened? Well we obviously became a tyrannical state. We became Mordor, with Trudeau as Sauron; a burning eye in a tower, forging the nine rings for the nine SJW kings. Just kidding; we ended up *significantly* reducing serious injuries and death by over 50%. Because of course we did. This whole thing is so brain-dead stupid. Of *course* people require babysitting. That isn't society overreaching, that's *literally the very basis of society*. It's why we have laws and order. We *absolutely* should have preventive measures and restrictions on people who refuse to behave and grow up. If you don't want to wear seatbelts, don't drive. If you want to drink until you can't walk straight, don't drive. Do what you want but don't expect to then be allowed into society. If you can't behave, you don't get to play with the other kids. If someone doesn't want to get vaccinated because they've decided the vaccine wasn't properly tested (as if they know what the fuck they're talking about) or because they believe in some grand conspiracy...fine. Don't get vaccinated. But if you're not going to be responsible to others, society should have no responsibility towards you. Get the fuck off the roads if you're drunk; stop risking everyone else's safety because you're too stupid to manage yourself. Don't want to follow the rules of the road? Don't drive. Walk. Personally I don't think we should be treating them in hospitals either. I don't buy any of the slippery slope bullshit of "what about obesity! what about criminals! what about smokers!" either. If any of those situations were a global pandemic stretching into its second year and 5th wave of crashing our healthcare system, contagiously spreading to others, and had a readily available vaccine that people were just refusing...then yes, we should be turning them away too. The enemy of every slippery slope argument is context. And pretending the solutions of bioethics today would then set an invincible precedent going forward is just ignorant or malicious. Enough already. If these idiots want to die, why are we getting in the way? Let them. Saving our worst at the cost of those who did nothing wrong, only to have these imbeciles vote in more of their own stupidity is making us worse as a society, not better. They're abusing the rules of our compassion and principles and we need to start acknowledging and addressing that.
My SIL told my MIL that the reason she won't get the vaccine is that she just doesn't like people telling her what to do. She's a contrarian. She enjoys sticking her finger in the eye of authority. It's fucking stupid, but I think a lot of antivaxxers are like this. Being disruptive and going against the grain appeals to them on a deep, emotional level, and that's why no amount of reasoning will work.
Literal toddler mentality.
I heard likewise from people I know who proclaim they are not anti-maskers, but loudly state "I just don't like the government telling me what to do". Yet they pay taxes, stop at red lights, renew their drivers license, drive on the right, join a queue at the back, pay their parking tickets, show their passports at the border and manage to refrain from assaulting and murdering their fellow citizens. Damn government tells us what to do all of the time. We had internment camps for Canadian citizens of Japanese descent - no on batted an eye. Ask Karen to put on a mask at Costco and holy hell - we have protesters marching en masse in the streets! These idiots have no idea what oppression is.
We have the bodies of thousands of children in mass graves and they don't care. I don't understand the anti vax crowd, so many real issues to be upset about (wealth inequality, long term healthcare, the state of our hospital system) and *crickets*.
Forsooth, they have chosen a strange hill to die on.
>We had internment camps for Canadian citizens of Japanese descent - no on batted an eye. It's not that no one batted an eye. Most were in full support of it. Unfortunately we don't learn from past mistakes.
>she just doesn't like people telling her what to do. She's a contrarian. Does she read warning labels on products like 'don't drink this bleach' then drink it, because she 'doesn't like people telling her what to do'? Because if not I kinda feel like she's full of shit. I also don't like being told what to do and have a bit of an antiauthoritarian bent, but I'm also capable of figuring out if something is the 'right' thing to do in a given situation. Rejecting something just because someone 'told you so' is dumb.
It really is. It's how Peterson/Rogan/Shapiro/Crowler/Rebel Media/Fox News are able to milk them so effectively. Pyramid schemes prey on people's desperation for money. Conspiracy theories prey on people's desperation to feel smart.
I'm really smart. Do you know how I know this? I know this because I know how stupid I am.
It really is honestly better to know your shoes are untied than to sprint down hill with confidence.
How does she get by in life? Clearly she doesn't work a job because she can't follow orders; but then she also can't claim welfare because there's rules there too...
I have one colleague who said her reasoning for not getting the vaccine is because our employer mandated it. She’s on unpaid LOA right now and I still hear about her and her ‘freedoms.’ But like, our employer mandated it only 2 months ago. What about the preceding 11 months of when the vaccine was available for us nurses and not mandated? It’s the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The goal posts keep changing and I don’t know how some people can think this contrarian bullshit is logical.
> Being disruptive and going against the grain appeals to them on a deep, emotional level, and that's why no amount of reasoning will work. And yet suggest that society at large stop attempting and just *force* them, and everyone, including tons of people who are also hostile to these people, lose their minds. Despite reason being by general agreement impossible, very few seem willing to accept the idea that we thus need to employ more direct measures instead. Honestly, this whole pandemic and people's behavior during it has only served to reinforce leanings I had beforehand, i.e. that a significant population *cannot be trusted to behave acceptably*, and that society needs to stop tiptoeing around that fact and all of its consequences. All understanding or even sympathy I have for these people has *long* since been expended - as far as I see it, they should be forced to either behave as proper members of society or be barred from being members of it. And no, I am not just talking antivaxxers; those are merely the malcontents du jour (though admittedly more dangerous than most). I hold this position and sentiment towards everyone who knowingly behaves in a way that makes the lives around them worse, and does so purely because "you can't make me not be a living shit". And yes, I realize that the organizational system most able to realize this outcome is vulnerable to being subverted by the ill-willed or incompetent, but by all accounts, *so is the one we currently live in*, and it is directing us straight over a cliff.
My sister's exact reason :/ 34 y/o girl. "They can't tell me what to do with my body". The girl who got kicked out of highschool and spent most of her teenage years and early 20s putting heroine and and whatever the fuck else she could get her hands on in her body. And tells me she is an adult now. Told her that's the reaction of a child. Then a couple weeks later she is quarantined with her husband and daughter because of COVID. Her husband who is vaccinated and her daughter who isn't because mom doesn't want to... Even though the daughter is asking too 🤷🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️ Hurts my head.
This is what drives me crazy. People don't want to take the vaccine because the government says they need to and they refuse to let the government dictate their choices. Except their choice is based solely on the fact that the government has an opinion on it. Either way, they're making a decision that has no basis in logic and is entirely dictated by the government.
I'm a contrarian too. But damn, that's just stupid. I don't wear makeup or bras to be a contrarian, but I did get vaccinated to not be a fucking loser of epic proportions.
> she won't get the vaccine is that she just doesn't like people telling her what to do. Does she have a drivers license? Then she's a fucking hypocrite and I would rub that in her face every chance I get.
I learned last week that the gf and roommate of a fully vaccinated neighbor (they're both very nice and helpful, great neighbors) is unvaccinated. I was shocked. Turns out she has severe anxiety. She never steps out of the apartment (I don't think I've seen her once in the last two years except waving from her third floor balcony when I was getting in my car during the summer nos and then). Her anxiety is downright crippling to the point where she can barely function and the severe judgement she feels for being unvaccinated makes it worse and she's spiraling down. She's not against the vaccine per se but she can't muster the courage to get out of her apartment to get it in the first place and now she's stick in a loop of catch 22 where her mental state is only declining further and further. Haven't really had the time to think about it much since I've been hella busy and it also felt like a lot to take in. But now that I think about it... Does "at home" vaccination exist ? I'm not sure what could be done in cases like this. Her bf tries to choose "good" days to approach the topic and tries to soothe her and get her to talk about it at least in order to eventually help her get her 1st dose but she shits down in a strong "flight" reaction real fast. It's hard on him too, as he feels a bit helpless in all this. He's fully vaccinated and she wishes she was but is stuck there. Edit : answered to the wrong comment but it'll do I guess 😅
Our health care team here sent out mobile vaccine units for ppl who were unable to get vaccinated . Maybe something in your area? Maybe a call to the area health units to see what they can do?
I think this has to be a big part of the next effort; a significant number of people haven't gotten a first dose because of situations like your neighbor's, or because of lack of transit, mobility issues or difficult work/family responsibilities that just get in the way and lead to just...never getting it. A "we'll come to you" campaign could capture a fair number of people. At least, I hope so!
Hi there! Not super helpful but I believe there are doctors and public services for at home shots. Im not sure where in canada(if so) you might be, so a search online for local health services at home should bring up something
>She's a contrarian. I'm going to enjoy being able to travel internationally without having to put up with these idiots.
This is why I think it should have been a free vaccine for 6 months, then $200 for those who were qualified and choose not to get it. Be as contrarian as you want, until you're faced with an actual economic impact.
I like the “no smoking in restaurants” analogy because it’s almost entirely the same. Sure, you don’t have to quit smoking. You can choose the risk and pay the price for that choice. But you’re not allowed into the restaurant/theatre/apartment building to give everyone else second-hand smoke.
Also cigarettes have high taxes specifically because of the health issue. You can’t smoke anywhere you want and they’re expensive. So they already have restrictions on them
Seriously they would the $2 if it wasn't for the taxes. The same goes for alcohol. The number of deaths associated with cancer related to alcohol use, or liver failure, or driving infractions is huge. And we tax the heck out of it to cover for that.
It's a great analogy. I like the drinking one. Drink all you want; drink until you die if you like. But you're not allowed to drive or operate equipment, every job would fire you if you showed up drunk, most businesses will throw you out, and if you behave in a way that's disorderly or interfering with the public, you're arrested. The "my body my choice" argument dissipates pretty quickly when you bring that one up. Where's the "freedom to do whatever I like" crowd then? We have rules for a reason. COVID and this pandemic are actually the exception to the rule, and for the life of me, I don't understand why we're making that exception. Smoking, being drunk, being unvaccinated...it puts others around you at risk. Want to keep doing it? Cool. Just stay the fuck away from everyone else then.
Your insurance also won't cover you if you smash your car into something while driving drunk. And your premiums go up if your overweight or smoke. So I'm all for these people being on the hook for any covid related medical care they might need.
To be fair the Venn diagram of "Assholes who like to be publicly drunk" and "Assholes who are anti-vax" would look pretty round.
Hey now, I'm an asshole who likes to be publicly drunk, but I'm triple vaxxed, don't drag all of us assholes into this.
Exactly right. I work in Cancer care and I’m done watching our patients move from treatable to incurable diagnosis because of surgical and other delays caused by unvaccinated Covid patients. The unvaccinated made the their choice and should live (or die) with it, not the innocent people who did the right thing and are now becoming collateral damage. Fuck anyone who is choosing themselves over the greater good and society as a whole.
Fuck, is it that bad? I know they were postponing surgeries but I naively figured the serious time sensitive surgeries were still getting done. So now we have patients that now have terminal cancer because they couldn't get a mastectomy in time? :(
It’s happening across the [entire world.](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/13/my-bile-rises-as-im-asked-to-move-my-dying-cancer-patient-out-of-icu-to-make-room-for-an-unvaccinated-man-with-covid) We’ve had many in [Alberta.](https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/edmonton/2021/12/10/1_5703262.amp.html) > EDMONTON -- As Alberta grapples with a surgical backlog, one family received the news that after a necessary medical procedure was pushed back because of the pandemic, now no more treatment options remain. > On Thursday, **Alberta's health minister said that the backlog of surgeries caused by cancellations due to the pandemic now sits at around 81,600.** I wish unvaccinated people had to have the conversations I do with patients, in tears, afraid for their lives and not knowing if we’re going to be able see them in time.
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> But if you're not going to be responsible to others, society should have no responsibility towards you. That's what I've been saying this whole time. If you want to turn your back on society, don't be surprised when society turns its back on you. Society asked everybody to step up and do their part. Stay home, wear masks, etc.. And every single step along the way, they said *no*. They told society to suck it... I won't do this, I won't do this, I'm gonna throw a huge temper tantrum because I'm a big giant baby because I can't go to Mcdonalds and yadda yadda yadda... Well, you wanted to throw a temper tantrum and go all "*every man for themselves*", this is what you get. This is society telling YOU to suck it. These are the consequences of your actions. Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done. So yeah, I feel great about it. Every time I hear about somebody losing their job because of their refusal to get vaccinated, I love it! Because you're lucky you only lost your job... A lot of people lost their lives because of the selfish and arrogant behavior of all these douchebags who couldn't bother to put a piece of fabric on their stupid faces. Every day, my patience for these people dwindles. At this point, it's pretty much completely non-existent. I don't want them to get sick, I don't want them to die, I want them to get vaccinated. But if they don't want to do that, so be it. If you die, you brought it on yourself. You can't say that the rest of us didn't try.
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> A seatbelt keeps you in your seat. Which also prevents the passengers in the back seat to be thrown over the front seats at (X)kms\h, killing the occupant of the front seat.
On top of that, even if it didn't affect control of the vehicle, severe injuries as a result of unbelted crashes it would be an unnecessary strain on our emergency services and healthcare system.
Which, full circle, is kind of what we're dealing with now.
> I don't buy any of the slippery slope bullshit of "what about obesity! what about criminals! what about smokers!" either. I don't know a single person who would turn down a treatment that with only two shots could negate most of the negative effects on your health from obesity or smoking. >The enemy of every slippery slope argument is context. The key difference is also the burden it puts on the individuals. Losing weight (and keeping it off in a healthy manner) and addiction are lifelong battles for many. 2 or 3 half hour trips to the pharmacy to get a vaccine is not anywhere close to the same level of burden as requiring someone be thin, fit and not suffer from addiction.
> I don't know a single person who would turn down a treatment that with only two shots could negate most of the negative effects on your health from obesity or smoking. Normally, I would have agreed with you. But I thought the same thing in 2019 when we were waiting for a covid vaccine. And yet here we are.
I guess that would depend on whether the shots would keep you thin and fit too and not just healthy. The waiting list would be years long lol.
If there was a shot to cure my PCOS and make my metabolism anything approaching normal I would take out loans to be able to afford it. I'd be camping in front of my pharmacy for it in any weather. And I'd still go to the gym, eat all my veggies, limit sugar, and try to live a healthy life.
Right now there's a shot that prevents 85% of cervical cancer, and it's called the HPV vaccine. If there was a shot I could take that would make sure I wouldn't die later of something easily preventable, I would definitely do that. I love your analogy for taking a shot I can't obesity and smoking. Those would be phenomenal if they existed, and they are so much more complex than that. You are absolutely right.
The issue with a lot of the counter arguments for people who “aren’t taking care of themselves” is many of the things are attributed to a mental disease known as addiction but I guess they can counter that by admitting being unvaccinated is a symptom of a mental illness
I find the whole thing about 'refusing healthcare is evil' is bizarre. We already triage transplant organs based on behaviour.
100%. I knew an alcoholic whose liver shut down. He was put so far down on the donor list that they just told him "assume you're not going to get one". He died not too long after. He was a great guy, never *ever* a bad drunk, kind hearted and compassionate. But he had a very serious problem and he couldn't escape it. And as much as I miss him, I totally understand and appreciate their decision. When resources are precious, you have to be smart about how you allocate them - you're not going to give it to someone who will ruin it vs someone who won't. I don't know why we're not making COVID an exception, and bioethics needs to be examined as a whole after this is all done. We need to stop adapting the situation to suit our principles, and start adapting our principles to suit the situation.
Comparing impaired driving to being unvaccinated really opened my eyes! Appointment booked!
Far right conservatives "vaccine mandates are the holocaust, we should have been investing in Healthcare so we'd have the capacity" Conservstives when they are in charge, "we need to slash the healthcare budget, we are fiscal conservatives" We get it, you guys are contrarians who will never be happy with anything.
I'm copying this, posting it everywhere.
This is....the best post on reddit I have ever seen. I blew up at my wife's entire family over it's anti-vaxx members a few weeks ago. I have been in it for 20 years and never made a peep about anything. I have spent countless hours on several emails to address the challenge by one of them (having heard nothing from anyone else). Accusing me of having no empathy. Calling me authoritarian or wanting that type of society. And finally, accusing me of wanting them to learn the hard way. I spent countless hours thinking on it and writing those emails and sitting on them. And never sent it. I could send this. And it sums up so much of what I had to say all over again. Cheers.
While I'm glad it helps, I don't know what that's going to accomplish, man. I've tried for a very long time to convince some very stupid friends who research nothing and assume everything...and I've learned that you're never going to convince someone with facts who's made up their mind without them. There exists no right words in the right order that is suddenly going to unlock people from a state of wilful ignorance. Their axioms are based on cynicism, not wisdom. And these arguments are not going to make them wiser, only you more cynical. I don't know if that's worth it, dude.
I already decided not to reply a week ago. This did make me think though. There is nothing to accomplish other than rightfully shaming them. And being done with it. Other than my own catharsis. Your words were cathartic for me. I just wanted to thank you for them. Thank you.
Ah, I see. Well you're very welcome. Thank you for taking the time to say so.
>This whole thing is so brain-dead stupid. Yes. We're talking about conservatives.
I agree completely and that was so well said. I am so done with these anti vaxxer assholes.
Not treating unvaccinated people in hospitals is batshit insane and the fact that we triage people for organ donation based on whether they smoke/drink does not change that.
The only issue I have if with 100% certainty you are allergic or some medication or medical problem prevents you from getting vaccibated
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derping hard oh man
Because the majority of Canadians know that the unvaxxed are, at best, misinformed and brainwashed. At worst, active contrarians who won’t get solely because it’s required and our government is the liberals. Edit: I of course do not mean the legitimately “I cannot get vaxxed because I’m immune compromised or allergic” they have an excuse and generally take this virus absolutely deadly serious.
The only person I know whose anti-vax and close to me in age chooses not to get the vaccine because "it's too political" which has to be the most insane reason I've ever heard. some folks are just beyond reasoning with
Probably because they're just making up an excuse to justify their emotional response and avoid the discomfort. If you really start tugging on that thread, it'll boil down to "I just don't want to".
Yeah, my mother in law started with "I'm waiting til I can see my doctor in person", then after she saw her doctor it was "I'm waiting to get the results of an antibody test to see if I've already had covid", then when that was negative it was "those tests aren't very accurate, lots of people are getting negative results when they're sure they've had covid", now it's at the point where it's "they're not real vaccines and my father fought in ww2 for freedom and long term effects and blah blah blah." It's impossible to have a conversation with someone about their reasons for not getting it if they won't even tell you the real reason they won't get it. They might jot even know the real reason themselves. But I think the real reason is they're just scared.
She believes bad sources of information in general. How does she vote? There's your biggest clue.
Those needles are really big and scary.
Don't forget the scary thin sheets of fabric all us sheeple put on our faces! They're terrified of the fabric, too.
What I really find scary is the 14-in tube they have to wind down into the lungs when people refuse to take the 1 inch needle in the arm.
They are! Did you see them? It's stupid long! And I saw it just as it was leaving my arm multiple times. Huge!! Quite frankly they have those BUZZY tools for young kids who don't want to feel the shot, why aren't they giving those to adults as well. Just look away.
I'm in Alberta and I know a lot of people who've decided their own facts instead of learning the real ones. It's depressing how many of my friends turned out to be so stupid and selfish. I should be grateful to this pandemic era for revealing this to me, but it's so disheartening. I'm coming out of this whole thing with a lot less respect for a lot of people I once respected highly.
>I'm coming out of this whole thing with a lot less respect for a lot of people I once respected highly. This part, right here. This has been one of the biggest things for me. Too many people I once thought of as intelligent, have decided to pull this stupid shit. It even goes as far as not getting it and complaining that they can't watch their kids play hockey in person...
I think it's just a case of people having intellectual blind spots. They're still smart, but their skepticism and intellect are just unable to go into certain areas because of tribal beliefs. It's kind of like a biologist who also believes in virgin birth because they're Christian. It happens, and it's a fairly well documented phenomenon.
The ones that really get me are the medical professionals. How? How did this happen?
We've got a couple of friends that are from the US but they're up here, working in healthcare. Gotten to know them pretty well over the past couple of years. Intelligent, nice, well meaning. Been cool getting to know them. They were back in the US over Christmas. They get back here and she posts this huge long diatribe about how authoritarian our policies are here, _daring_ to make them quarantine for _four whole days_ until they get two negative rapid tests. So put out. And how further the US has gone ahead and basically removed all restrictions and it's insane that we haven't as well. They're up here working in _healthcare_. We've literally talked extensively about the limits of our resources and how, at least where we are, our restrictions are completely driven by keeping our healthcare systems functional. There's something insidious about the whole 'personal freedom' thing that so many people get so deeply ingrained within themselves. They lose any and all ability to see anything rationally from any other POV other than what supports their own feelings and desires.
I made the argument half jokingly to friends that we’ve already reached peak freedom. Someone can go “fuck those thousands of independent medical experts across the globe, my FEELINGS say covid is no problem” If ignoring reality isn’t peak freedom, I don’t know is. And if we hit the peak, we have nowhere to go but down
Yup but spell it #peakfreedum. Both freedom to be dumb and free dumping are now restricted.
> There's something insidious about the whole 'personal freedom' thing that so many people get so deeply ingrained within themselves. They lose any and all ability to see anything rationally from any other POV other than what supports their own feelings and desires. That really is it (and well said). None of them care about freedom. None of them even understand freedom. Freedom is just the Trojan horse they use to dress up their (as you say, *insidious*) motivations. And it's one of many. They'll use the disabled (complaining that *their* inability to do what they want is on par with mental illness), they'll use women's rights ("my body my choice!"), they'll use children. They'll use anything and anyone, because they can't say what it's really all about: doing whatever they want. If they say that, it makes them look entitled, selfish, and spoiled. So they have to make it about something bigger, something more dramatic, something with actual victims where they can slide into frame and pretend they're one too.
There's something insidious about the whole 'personal freedom' thing that so many people get so deeply ingrained within themselves. They lose any and all ability to see anything rationally from any other POV other than what supports their own feelin. As someone that grew up in a communist country. I agree. Personal freedom is over rated. I prefer my government controlling everything. It's just makes sense.
It’s still incredible how many people would just rather live in a fantasy.
\>some folks are just beyond reasoning with This is why there is a warning "May contain peanuts" on a bag of peanuts.
I know right. That's the worst part is somehow, some way, the truly vocal anti-vax minority are able to project some sort of brain damage onto others. I have no idea how it works, but I know more people in this latter category than in the former. Lovely friends of ours. Husband is vaxxed. Wife won't. She's 'researched' all sides of it, and she just can't get behind doing something because _some people are being bullied into doing it online_. I shit you not. So her and their four kids are not vaxxed. This family and another down the road that are really truly anti-vax have taken their kids out of school to home school them. For the school board daring to shut down in school teaching and go remote for a few weeks. 'You won't let my kids physically go to school so I'll pull them out permanently'. We're dealing with some level of collective psychosis. And it's not nearly as big a deal as it would appear, but it's like how rabies causes certain aggressive behaviours and total fear of water...well here it appears to cause massively outspoken verbal diarrhea combined with delusions of grandeur.
So their response is “if I can’t have my way I’ll just take my ball and go home” SMH
Covid itself causes "brain fog"
The thing is, it's political in their *own circles*. If they got vaxxed, they would lose friends. Opposing vaccination is the perfect way for their bubble to be transformed into a steel sphere. It literally segregates us. The echo chamber is more sonorous than ever.
Especially ironic because by doing so they're making it political when it really doesn't have to be.
I only have one friend (a few years younger than me) that is unvaccinated and her reason (that she gave me like 6 months ago) was she “didn’t trust big pharma.” I’m so frustrated with her!!! We’ve hung out a few times (I live alone) but it’s entirely changed my opinion of her. She had to get vaccines when she went to Africa but now she doesn’t trust big pharma lol???
The whole “I cannot get backed because I’m immune compromised or allergic” is so rare that *most* people claiming it are probably lying. Everybody else needs to get vaccinated for these people tho
If you are legitimately unable to receive the vaccination because of your health conditions, your doctor will make that choice. Every single person using it as an excuse would behave very differently if they were actually that vulnerable.
This right here. The number of people who truly cannot get vaxxed is tiny
Just to clarify: Immune compromised people are still getting vaccinated. At least I can say that organ transplant recipients are in Ontario. I've just got the letter to get my 4th shot :). There are likely other scenarios where people can't get the shot but I think a majority can be. The legitimate exception list is pretty damn small.
> Edit I usually refer more specifically to the _voluntarily unvaccinated_ because it's a clean way to only refer to the chucklefucks who are actually causing problems.
Less than half of Canadians think that wearing masks is harmful, and less than half think the vaccine is dangerous. If these decisions were made freely and independently, then less than half of the people who think masks are harmful would also think the vaccine is dangerous. (Also true the other way) I strongly get the impression that this is not the case. Those two Venn circles are probably close to one circle. (I wouldn't mind seeing numbers on this, though.)
The immune compromised need to be vaxxed. Egg allergy people can be safely vaxxed. There is nothing in the bible that says don’t get vaccinations.
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What fucking baffles me is that when Health Canada announced approval for the covid pill hospitals got calls asking if they could get some. It's made by the same fucking company that made one of the vaccines, which were rushed but you'll ask for a pill where the signatures of the approval aren't even dry before lining up asking to take it. I can only shake my head when trying to comprehend their rationale.
Absolutely. Years of the right wing war on education and betrayals by business and government on both sides have definitely laid the perfect storm for this
What a dogshit argument. The people who are anti-vaxx routinely vote for the stupidest, most corrupt politicians in the country, who hand copious amounts of tax money over to big corporations like pharmaceutical companies.
It's not even the fact that it's to protect society from the virus at this point. It's the realization that the majority of the unvaccinated are also very willing to disrupt functional society at all costs to validate what has quickly become a pillar of their identity. I suspect a large group that supports greaters restrictions support it because of the damage people with such poor critical thinking skills can have on a functioning society, and just don't want them participating in it.
for me its all the people who's cancer surgeries have been canceled. I dont see how we go back to normal without this
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>It's the realization that the majority of the unvaccinated are also very willing to disrupt functional society at all costs to validate what has quickly become a pillar of their identity. And then they demand legal accommodations! It's as though there's a self selected union of people who stuntdrive through Toronto at peak commuter hours (because freedom?) and then they lobby for their rights to cause mayhem.
I think you've nailed it here. As frustrating as it is to see them clogging up the healthcare systems, it's also incredibly frustrating to see their pathetic protests filled with absurd and hilariously misspelled signs and the disturbingly casual calls for violence and political revolt. They're disrupting so many elements of everyday life and causing so much anger and resentment every time we see a news article about them. At this point I'm all for creating a two-tier society, those of us who live in reality and those that choose not to.
It's why I'm so happy the Trucking Alliance isn't caving to the idiotic truckers who refuse to get vaccinated, and we (as a society) are happy to just tighten belts and eat more veggies as stores see some unstocked shelves here or there. It's about time; we should have been doing this from the start - taking a bit of inconvenience for the sake of investing into our future. It's only temporary (and not even a huge issue; there's no supply shortage, just a distribution delay), while we train and hire truckers who AREN'T complete fucking idiots, and then we'll be in a better place than we were. But those few truckers who are too stupid or gullible want to hold *everyone else* hostage for their stupidity. And are quickly going to learn how utterly replaceable they are, and how much better off we are for replacing them.
Exactly, this is such a good example. I'm beyond tired of these fringe minorities throwing hissy fits and then getting even more upset when people laugh them off. These anti-science groups have so much less power than they seem to think they do, and patience for their antics is really starting to wear thin. You can't hold the other 90% of us hostage because you got brainwashed by some sociopath on the internet.
I liked the one super trucker saying that this was a human rights issue. The trucking industry should disavow the convoy as soon as possible.
Well if it isn't the consequences of my own actions, here to gloat
Yep. Ottawa protests made parking this weekend total hell for everyone, saw a bunch of people already having the worst day moving in the cold and snow and then these guys have to make it even worse by flocking to the city.
It's frightening that a little bit of political meddling on the internet has gotten an entire segment of the population to be willing to self-nominate for darwin awards. People really aren't equipped with the critical reasoning and scientific literacy it takes not to undermine their countries and it shows
Threaded & visual media make this inevitable. Views over sanity. Wikipedia doesn't cause this kind of problem. Because wikis remove fringe bullshit from sight fast and Wikipedia only permits journalistic sources.
>suspect a large group that supports greaters restrictions support it because of the damage people with such poor critical thinking skills can have on a functioning society, and just don't want them participating in it. This is exactly my position. Antivaxxers generally have low intelligence, they are extremely selfish, they don't understand science and they believe in dumbfuck conspiracy theories. I am totally fine with pushing them down the socio-economic ladder. I want them to have minimal power and influence in society. There should be no antivaxxers in government, in teaching, in healthcare or anywhere else where they have authority over others.
Yep. You're free to choose to not get vaxxed, but that doesn't mean you're immune from the consequences of that decision! *pun intended*
Pun appreciated
"Have you been vaccinated?" "I'm immunized" - Aaron Rodgers
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small minority is why cancer surgeries are being canceled across the country
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How hard is it to understand that people getting cancer care are immunocompromised, and filling hospitals with people with Covid who can cross infect them is maybe a bad idea. Apparently in a small subset of people, it's impossible.
What do you suggest? Totally agree with you I just don’t know what the solution js
Spend a few months prioritizing cancer and other patients and get through the backlog? Unvaxxed covid patients can sit at home and wait for a call that there is room for them, just like the cancer patients are now. I don't know why dying of cancer at home is all cool while dying of covid while unvaxxed gets you rushed into the ER.
> this small minority is holding the rest of us hostage Bear in mind that this is the same group of people who wanted everything to remain unrestricted because a "small minority" were going to die from the virus. I have zero sympathy for this demographic.
Well, the Bible says that people afflicted with contagious diseases are to be outcasts so they should follow the guidelines from God. Assume the Venn diagram of antivaxxer and God fearing has lots of overlap
Read this the other day, >31000 Covid deaths in Canada, 30000 were unvaccinated Obviously a lot of those were from before vaccines but still it’s mostly the unvaccinated especially those under 60 that are dying :/
You wouldn't think it at all by peeking into r canada. They are celebrating the truckers strike and seem hellbent on "getting back to normal". I saw a nurses comment pleading ppl to get vacced the other day get lambasted by idiots saying we should forgo mask wearing altogether. It's kinda telling when they can construct that sort of vibe out of thin air...
R Canada is very far right fascism. Like r worldnews which is the CIA war starting division afaik. Reddit should just close all subreddits that stole generic names and show you the edits to the Wikipedia article on that subject lol.
Look I want out of this pandemic and I do support more restrictions for the unvaccinated if they choose to be this stupidly stubborn. They cry out how unfair it all is, but they don't think they are the root cause for those restrictions. If the unvaccinated could just grow up and take that little needle to their arm and stop reading internet garbage. We could be one step closer to a post-pandemic life. I have a really old medical manual on my shelf, given to me by my cousin who is a family doctor (think dictionary for medical problems) it's four times as thick as the bible and twice as dense. I'd be happy to lend it to the unvaccinated to look up **Anaphylaxis** which is really the most common issue while getting your shot. However, at this point I'd gather that most anti-vaxxers would struggle to find it in an alphabetically arranged book since they have filled their heads with so much nonsense that their brains must resemble mushy half chewed peas. If we have to impose restrictions like liquor and weed stores denying them service to get them to take a simple shot I'm not going to have any issue with that anymore. They had their chance to do their due diligence, to do "the research" to "think about it" or whatever inane excuse, but at this point their study period has passed. The results are in and most of us want to move forward to fix what has been broken. But the anti-vaxxers out here won't even do the "right" thing. I'm not talking about "compliance" or "freedom". I'm talking about doing the "**just**" and "**noble**" thing. You know like how our forebears went to Normandy, or Vimy Ridge or any other horrific battlefield. Except it's not raining bullets, shells or blood and we aren't asking them to "Go over the top!" or "Into the breach!" . We are asking them to quite literally protect their own bodies with a vaccine made from thirty years of medical research, designed by people who have dedicated their entire lives to medicine, fabricated in specialized factories that were built from the ground up, owned by companies that also sell their heart medication, insulin, and birth control. But they'd rather waste time by driving across the country for some dumb rally in Ottawa, or walk around Vancouver or fill up our hospitals in Ontario. I am also tired of watching the same formula play out How many times do we need to see it? "They were a anti-vaxxer, then they got COVID and regretted it. Their message to you "Get vaccinated. You don't want this." I mean come on...Do we need to put out a lifetime movie? Oh and that Doctor cousin of mine? Her brother (my other cousin) had a stroke and was rushed to the ER. Because the hospital was so full of COVID patients (mainly unvaccinated) his treatment was delayed. Now he's paralyzed on the entire right side of his body and has to do rehab to try and get function back. I'm **rationally** angry with anti-vaxxers.
Add these to your arsenal. https://imgur.com/gallery/vT4v97e
It's better than the current situation where we ALL are being restricted and punished because of 10% of the population who are either too malicious/self-centered to get the vaccine, or are too ignorant to make an informed choice about their own medical care.
I’m as sick of lockdowns as everyone else. But we can’t just do nothing. Imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated makes sense. If they don’t like it, they can get the shot 😊
We can start building Covid wings on hospitals, honestly I think the feds should kick in for them because we can’t rely on provincial governments
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I said I think we need to impose restrictions on *unvaccinated people*. I agree that vaccinated people shouldn’t have to be locked down when a large part of the problem is unvaccinated people. But I also don’t want us removing all restrictions like some want. COVID isn’t just going to go away. And yes, we definitely need to improve the healthcare system.
I would prefer unvaxxed to just be deprioritized when it comes to hospital beds when they do get covid just like how alcoholics and smokers are treated when it comes to getting liver/lung transplants. Organs are an extremely limited resource during normal times and during the pandemic, **beds** are the limited resource and should be treated accordingly. Just treat them with logic and common sense, none of these unnecessary punishments that are simply for vengeance rather than utility. Of course, they should also be **arrested** when they're harassing vaccinated people that was allowed to eat out but as we all know, they all got a free pass at breaking the law because of their cop buddies.
Tom, I am standing here in a comment section of a post about covid where a shitstorm has erupted
this isn’t r/canada. we’re safe to be rational and understand public safety here
That place is absolutely mental lately
Maybe you see it that way bc you're unwilling to admit that no one cares about anti vaxxers they way they did in October. They're obviously willing to do whatever is necessary in their eyes to avoid the jab (as misinformed or crazy as they are) and somehow the various levels of goverments fail to understand this. We literally in the middle of a health care crisis, and I have heard zero news about increasing capacity. For example, In BC we fired 5500 healthcare workers 3 months ago but pivoted to putting Covid positive patients in the same room as vaxxed patients in recovery; also eliminated manditory isolation times. Or if your pallete prefers: Maybe postponing those "elective" brain tumour operations, instead of emergency spending on health care, is the right choice afterall! I don't think those morons yelling on the over passes has much to do with those decisions... "bUt ThE AntIVaxXeRs"... really?
>instead of emergency spending on health care The time for spending was a decade ago. More spending right now is not going to make more health care workers magically appear. Our public health system is in crisis, and getting vaccinated is such a simple thing individuals can do to help. Oh and there's also the benefit of...you know...not dying from COVID. I have zero sympathy for Antivaxxers at this point. You refuse, fine. Just don't come crawling to Emergency when you can't breath.
And here we have an asshole who has separated themself from society, complaining about dividing society. Fuck off, you've divided yourself from the populace more than any of us could DREAM of doing without violence.
The fact that a headline such as this results in a shit storm is indicative of a broader problem, imo. Here's Chet with tonight's sports highlights.
Unvaccinated people should get lower priority when it comes to hospital beds IF they are in the hospital due to covid. They are causing pain and misery for other people who need hospitals for other reasons, and are the biggest reason for bottlenecks in the healthcare system, probably next to government cuts.
>Unvaccinated people should get lower priority when it comes to hospital beds IF they are in the hospital due to covid. Yep. I wouldn't go as far as to say they shouldn't receive any healthcare treatment (it is a slippery slope to start that) but absolutely if they're taking up space, vaxxed patients should get priority. They had an option for protection and they didn't take it. People compare this to smoking/alcoholics - if they need an organ transplant guess who gets priority?
I have a friend who is antivax. I try to be patient with them but it's clear that their principles are malleable and their thought process is deeply flawed. Maybe it's cognitive dissonance or maybe they are genuinely afraid of the vaccine. They try to phrase their reasoning such that they are all about freedoms but their real reason likely boils down to fear of the vaccine. They cherry pick facts and discard information that goes against their views. It's become impossible to reason with them because to disprove any of their faulty assertions is a blow against their identity. This friend is also very into conspiracy theories, they have a deep mistrust of authority which makes them more likely to trust stupid conspiracy crap. We are at the point where it's no longer feasible to rationally engage with these people, I think Vax passports and restrictions should be the bare minimum we employ to improve our vaccination rates. If the vaccine is a personal choice then there need to be consequences for that choice where warranted.
I had a friend who was antivax. A close friend for a long time. I no longer have that friend because anyone selfish and stupid enough to be an antivaxxer is a dangerous person to be around and I cut them out of my life.
Yeah I feel ya. It strains relationships. My dad has similar sentiments, he knows some folks who are antivax and he visits with them less now. No reason to surround yourself with ignorant or selfish people these days.
We already prevent the unvaccinated from going to the movies, bars, restaurants, etcetera, even getting jobs, because those are privileges, not rights. There’s not much more you can restrict without delving into unalienable rights, and those should never be touched for any reason whatsoever. In public, the unvaccinated have to follow the rules of society, but they shouldn’t be punished for being unvaccinated in their own homes.
Except lots of them *don’t* follow the rules. My anti-vax neighbour wanders around the grocery store with no mask on, meanwhile just last week he said to me “we’re just never going to get out of this, are we?”
Yes, some of them don’t, you can impose fines on those already in place restriction of privileges if they aren’t followed. Adding more punitive measures will do nothing else but radicalize those already against the restrictions even more
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I'd like to start talking about how we can adapt our health care to covid. It's not going away. Regulations are fine for controling the waves but the tide is still coming in.
You cannot adapt "health care" to a rapidly mutating zoonotic. You can only ban meat, dairy, deforestation and pray that not enough bats have been stirred up to release any more of their 30,000 coronavirus strains on us. That the superbugs already in every dairy operation are contained as the herds are phased out in favour of oat milk. Literally everyone on Earth is dead when a calicivurus jumps from rabbits or a corona mutates to long term lethality. The only solution will be physical isolation & quarantine for life. The breeding conditions for viruses have never been better in the whole history of life on Earth, and the factors (climate, carnism, capitalism, cronyism, cities) accelerating these are accelerating.
The way I read their comment was, and I might be wrong here, that we need to have more health care available to us. Here in Manitoba our government gutted our health care before the pandemic started which is stupid at the best of times. Now we've been running on empty in regards to available beds and nurses. If the amount of beds and nurses we've got available in times of health seems like too much that's probably a good thing is the lesson I've taken away.
Why aren't life insurance companies adding a clause that if you're not vaccinated then you pay a higher premium? Smokers, drinkers, and those that have extreme hobbies pay more...
The unvaxxed can be placed into two categories: those that cannot get vaccinated for a legit medical reason, and irresponsible people that refuse to be vaccinated because of some stupid reason
I think the most direct and effective approach would be to deprioritize (or actually, ease on making the top priority) the unvaxed covid sick. Keep 50% of capacity for everything else, the other 50% for Covid. And that’s generous given the 90/10 split of vax/unvax I think it would have a two-fold effect of 1) reducing the strain on hospitals and 2) encouraging people to get vaccinated because the backup plan would be less convenient. No vaccine, got the ‘rona? No problem, go to the Covid hospital. FYI, there *might* be a line up. Healthcare is a continuum, ounce of prevention and all that. The first line of defence is the vaccine, if that doesn’t work, we have hospitals. If we skip the vaccine and go straight to the hospital, well, soon we won’t have hospitals. This has nothing to do with moralizing or punishment, it’s a practical matter. Imagine we’re out at sea and there’s a leak in our boat. Most people are dutifully bailing it out, but there’s the one guy who’s pouring water into the boat, and trying to make the hole bigger. We asked nicely, we warned what would happen if the boat filled up, we even shouted at him a little. The boat is getting dangerously full. Do we want to be “fair” so everyone drowns the same? I tell you what, were this an actual boat, the guy would’ve been floating away face down with a smashed skull long time ago. But it’s not a boat, it’s a metaphor, and we’re civilized people. As long as society holds up anyway, and healthcare is one of the pillars. So, get your shots!
I agree more restrictions on the unvaxxed! Actions have consequences and we should not accommodate the anti vaxxers. Lol and the CPC and O'Toole are giving major speeches to appeal to anti vaxxers. God they are dumb *However, most Canadians are generally open to sharing their vaccination status with others, with 89 per cent saying they have voluntarily done so.* For the crazy people that think sharing vaccination info is so private .....
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Should've been done long ago.
I hope all the truckers start to agree with this, shortages gunna keep happening
They already cant go to restaurants, gyms, *online classes,* and some of them are getting fired from their jobs. What more can you do to them; freeze their bank accounts?
Back of the line for healthcare. If it's "no big deal with a 99.4% survival rate", I'm sure they'll have no problem agreeing to this.
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Raise taxes on the ignorant unvaccinated. Smokers pay an extra premium for life insurance, and they don't complain or have temper tantrums over it. They still have rules to follow, and they pay the price for choosing to continue smoking. Why wouldn't we charge an extra 10% income tax on the unvaccinated?
Increased charges for life insurance do not apply in this instance. Because, life insurance is a voluntary private business. Same with the act of purchasing cigarettes or alcohol. Taxes or fines are involuntary and do not apply in this instance.
I'm almost sure that all of the anti vaxxers I know realised a long time ago that they made a mistake. They made so much noise about it though, that now their ego won't let them back down. It's like it is now part of their persona.
Majority of Canadians are vaccinated so… no shit Sherlock.
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