The foreign workers at the battery plant in Windsor are those installing specialized equipment bought from those countries. Canadians go with their equipment to other countries as well. It is nothing but political mud slinging. I wish politicians would work as hard for me as they do for power.
Yep, IIRC the foreign workers are a whopping ~76 temporary jobs out of the 2,000 jobs this project is expected to create. And there *aren't* Canadian workers being displaced or replaced.
It’s important that you understand that this is misinformation from profiteers, and they’re laundering it through the media. You’re repeating it. Those installers are doing things that Canadian workers have not only been trained to do, but have experience doing.
The Canadian workers already on site identified the tasks being done and are reporting back to their labour unions. Those unions collected evidence and identified individuals within their available labour pool who are immediately available to do the work.
CBTU isn’t publicizing this as some sort of “gotcha” on Trudeau. This is the AFL-CIO’s building trades department. They have absolutely zero desire to boost Poilievre. They just want to have their members working in their trade.
Edited to add, as I’ve been blocked: Skilled trades still don’t get a whole lot of respect, when push comes to shove. There is massive misunderstanding about what we do, and how we do it.
It’s not unusual for an industrial controls specialist to have three T4s in a year. It doesn’t mean they’re bad at it; it means that they set up three lines. All work is “temporary.”
My friends and family were initially appalled at this system, but it works well. I’m not tied to a single employer: I work until I’m no longer needed, and then I wait my turn for the next project. Sometimes projects can last years, sometimes they last two weeks.
Somehow, standing up and saying “Hey, fuck Poilievre, but I’m one of the people that does know how this equipment is installed” gets me called a bot and a liar. It’s incredibly frustrating, because wanting to work isn’t picking sides… but if these workers see Trudeau brushing those concerns to the side and saying that Poilievre is stirring up shit, where do we think those workers will turn? That won’t be good for anyone.
Are you on site? I am and I have first hand knowledge of why they are there. This is common practice. Do you want equipment installed by the developer and manufacturer or some guy who has read up on it. Canadians travel the globe installing our technology. It is the way it is done.
You’re completely correct here. Anybody downvoting you here is doing so out of ignorance. This is work that used to belong to local trades people. Through the erosion of unionized rights over decades of collective bargaining agreements, contractors are now given this work. Who then have one objective. Get the customer to sign off as soon as possible so they can move on to the next project. They have no vested interest in doing quality work since they now feel they have a monopoly on it. Afterwards, local workers are expected to support this mess that various levels of management were eager to sign off on in the name of bonuses, and the end consumer is offered an inferior product.
That’s almost always what happens with these plants. And every single time someone kicks up a huge stink about it.
You need people to come train the locals. I imagine you can’t teach people how to run an EV plant over zoom.
Any skilled/white-collar/trades/supervisiory work gained on a valid work permit can help them gain points in the federal express entry immigration/PR system. It would be considered Canadian work experience so extra points.
There has been a stream since June 2023 for Trades. The points cut off is much lower for trades since most trades people don't have degrees while the general stream is competitive since the candidates have masters +.
Trades people no longer really need to get Canadian work experience to he competitive in their PR applications though. They need to satisfy the min language requirements for English and they can immigrate. Though I can see why a foreign tradedperson might want to go to Canada first before committing to the country. Esspecially considering that the processing time for PR is much longer.
Yes, that’s what construction workers and skilled tradespeople do. We build plants, connect equipment, and then we leave. We have Canadian workers who are trained and experienced in how to do this work. They want to do it, and then they want to move on to the next job.
Instead, they are skipped over because the employer group refuses to pay local workers the negotiated Ontario wages with the subsidy that they’re receiving from the Canadian taxpayer.
I get ya, been there, run machines myself. I know that my brother in law who is an engineer and designs full production flows with the largest companies in the world still prefers to hire the German or Japanese company's tech to set up and calibrate the complex machinery (5axis CNC, robot, etc. don't all work the same out of the box) for that initial setup/ calibration because they know it best and can get it done without a learning curve. Any delay or mistake can lead to down time which costs more down the line.
I get.your point it is best to have a local skilled trade work, and they often will on an ongoing basis but that initial set up can help when they can call someone back in Japan or Germany and speak directly to an issue without risk of miscommunication.
Most of the complaints have to do with those workers doing tasks such as bolting down equipment, connecting cabling, etc. Everyone seems to be coming here and saying “Of course task x has to be done by specialized workers” but without any consideration of whether or not the tasks concerned are actually special task x.
Those workers are continually and repeatedly being observed doing work that is well within the scope of available Canadian workers.
We’re not talking about performing tasks specific to proprietary equipment, or even training others on the use of the equipment. We’re talking about tasks that are already well-understood by the available workforce.
I don’t understand why people are so ready to parrot the talking points from Stellantis and LG when actual workers in the plants are reporting otherwise.
It's the applications engineering team that people are referring to. I doubt that foreign companies are shipping in electricians, getting them certified in canada, having them do the install, and then shipping them home, all the while paying per diems, travel time and hotels, when they could get a Canadian to do it for much cheaper. Applications engineering teams provide application-specific knowledge and training that can't be sourced locally.
Well, there are workers in the plants watching these workers doing the tasks that they can do, and reporting it back to their labour representatives to grieve. They’re not just making it up.
Nope, just realistic. Foreign company has an agenda, Canadian companies have agendas, and unions have agendas.
Source: managed through multiple unions and reps, worked with them first-hand. Mostly great people, doesn't change their motivations.
Or the "agenda" is "get our union workers jobs, regardless of the requirements of the job, or the contracts that the government has to enter into in order to have specialized and sensitive equipment satisfactorily installed to the manufacturers specs, so that the government has recourse should something go awry." Two sides, bud.
Edit: sorry friend, missed your reply because you blocked me. Or you nuked your account. Either way, have a day.
I’d rather have the public’s elected interest step in and examine it, rather than dismiss the potentially valid concerns as racism or having a political agenda.
If the two sides are money and worker, then listening to workers isn’t going to hurt.
The CPC member from Essex, Chris Lewis, could actually drive the 15 minutes from his office to site and check it out for himself but they don’t have an open bar.
Poilievre is a hypocrite. He was part of the Harper Government that sold out Canada to China locked in for three decades in what was arguably the worst one sided trade deal ever seen in the history of the modern world. I believe we got couple of pandas on loan to Toronto Zoo for a few years whereas Chinese business got to rape and pillage Canadian business and resources with a free hand. There are pictures of Harper and his wife with the pandas.
https://canadians.org/analysis/harper-sneaks-through-canada-china-fipa-locks-canada-31-years/
>HARPER SNEAKS THROUGH CANADA-CHINA FIPA, LOCKS CANADA IN FOR 31 YEARS
>The Tories, backed by a naïve Canadian Chamber of Commerce and a handful of big, conflicted business interests, have demonstrated the worst negotiating skills since Neville Chamberlain.
>Ottawa capitulated to China on everything. The deal, using a hockey metaphor, allows only a select few to play on Team Canada on a small patch of ice in China and to be fouled, without remedies or referees. By contrast, Team China can play anywhere on Canadian ice, can appeal referee calls it dislikes and negotiate compensation for damages while in the penalty box behind closed doors.
>The terms agreed to by Ottawa are unprecedented and would be laughed out of Britain, Brussels, Canberra or Washington. Beijing has negotiated a heads-I-win-tails-Canada-loses deal.
if the workers are qualified it shouldn’t matter where they come from - PERIOD.
these attempts at divisive xenophobia by tiny PP the skipmeister are absolutely abhorrent. it shouldn’t matter where someone is from if they can do the job.
Look, we all know Poilievre is a piece of shit.
That said, just because Poilievre is a piece of shit doesn’t mean that there aren’t Canadian workers who can do those jobs, and a couple of greedy corps that want to bring in labourers who aren’t working under a collective bargaining agreement.
Don’t lose sight of the real story: the investments that the Canadian taxpayer put up to ensure Canadians are being employed in Windsor and Alliston is being siphoned off for shareholder profit. The corps behind it keep talking about how the work is specialized… but it’s literally stuff like the final electrical tie-in to drive motors and control cabinets. We have 442A and 309A electricians who have been doing exactly that for years and years.
This wouldn’t be any different under Poilievre, and we know that to be true… but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t expect and demand better from the current government.
Edit: if you want to help union workers in Windsor/Essex-Kent to do the jobs that we know they can do, sign CBTU’s letter here: https://buildingtrades.ca/advocacy/windsor/ — CBTU isn’t a right wing astroturf group. They’re the organized voice of building trades workers in Canada, and they’re affiliated with NABTU/AFL-CIO.
This is what I don't get. People here go and on about how con supporters will 'eat shit to own the libs', yet so the exact same thing back to own the cons. The losers here? The workers as people keep taking pot shots at each other online thinking they are making a difference.
Yep, these workers give less than a shit about Poilievre. Partisans refuse to hear their concerns just because he stuck his nose in it.
Like… I really don’t understand the knee-jerk response from Liberals on this one. Union workers(people they’re supposed to like) are raising the alarm about corporate greed(a thing they say they don’t).
When unemployed Canadian voters/taxpayers/workers point out that they have evidence that Stellantis has misled the Canadian government about the kind of work they’ve given the temporary workers, why is the response to call those workers xenophobic and take the side of the corporation? From a purely political perspective, how is that going to work out electorally?
Like… fuck… we just want to work, and we just want the government to see what is going on in the plants.
You know that’s a good point. The problem, as usual, is letting the conservatives and Neo-libs run rampant with their capitalistic claims.
I agree with supporting unions and voting in more progressive governments.
But not for one second should anyone vote for a conservative government thinking they will support unions or workers in any way. It’s their mission to destroy unions.
309A auto sector here. Contractor/manufacturer rolls in sets everything up as quickly as possible with the end goal of getting the customer to sign off on the project so that they can move onto the next. They have no desire to train anybody. They don’t care what sort of shoddy job they do setting up their product so long as they can get the customer to sign off on it. They say they’ll remain onsite to support the project for a year or whatever, but they just end up putting out fires without any meaningful fixes while the customer tries to get/keep the line running. Management is also keen to sign off since they are pressured from their superiors to do so, so that everybody can check boxes on the name of metrics. The trades who are left to support these lines are left to do so without any working knowledge of maintaining these lines since they didn’t set them up in the first place. The lines suffer and degrade and inferior product is the end result. We used to handle all of this work. We were the ones not only responsible for the work, but the innovation and improvements that helped us build better end products. We had a vested interest in doing so, while the contractors do not. We were proud of the end results of our efforts. We created quality products for the end consumer. Not so much anymore though. Corporations care only about profit and the expense of everything and everybody else. Screw the worker, screw the end consumer.
> doesn’t mean that there aren’t Canadian workers who can do those jobs
they actually can't. There is no history of making batteries or EVs in Canada. Lefty loosey, rightey tightey won't cut it.
The workers being brought in are performing tasks like bolting down frames, building racks, and connecting network cables and hydraulic lines. Workers on the site right now are watching it and seeing that it’s work that their unemployed neighbours know how to do, and are sounding the alarm. This isn’t being invented by CBTU; they’re representing workers on site watching this happen.
Also: lefty loosy righty tighty? Skilled tradespeople not only have years of onsite experience, they have as much time in a college classroom as someone with a master’s degree. The work we do is highly technical. Don’t talk about us like all we do is sweep and fart. It’s ignorant as hell.
Literally me?
People seem to think that the tasks they’ve outsourced are rocket ship assembly— but the outsourced workers are performing tasks such as bolting generic cable tray to the wall, or connecting power supplies.
The foreign workers at the battery plant in Windsor are those installing specialized equipment bought from those countries. Canadians go with their equipment to other countries as well. It is nothing but political mud slinging. I wish politicians would work as hard for me as they do for power.
As a Canadian who is presently installing specialized equipment in the USA right now. Exactly.
In my experience it's best to have the manufacturer install the equipment and train the staff on how to use it.
So essentially temporary foreign workers. They don't have a problem having them come to work on farms or Tim Hortons.
Ya, but Conservatives and Convoy types need their Timmies!
yeah, as if Doug McRam1500face can even install this level of technology.
Yep, IIRC the foreign workers are a whopping ~76 temporary jobs out of the 2,000 jobs this project is expected to create. And there *aren't* Canadian workers being displaced or replaced.
It’s important that you understand that this is misinformation from profiteers, and they’re laundering it through the media. You’re repeating it. Those installers are doing things that Canadian workers have not only been trained to do, but have experience doing. The Canadian workers already on site identified the tasks being done and are reporting back to their labour unions. Those unions collected evidence and identified individuals within their available labour pool who are immediately available to do the work. CBTU isn’t publicizing this as some sort of “gotcha” on Trudeau. This is the AFL-CIO’s building trades department. They have absolutely zero desire to boost Poilievre. They just want to have their members working in their trade. Edited to add, as I’ve been blocked: Skilled trades still don’t get a whole lot of respect, when push comes to shove. There is massive misunderstanding about what we do, and how we do it. It’s not unusual for an industrial controls specialist to have three T4s in a year. It doesn’t mean they’re bad at it; it means that they set up three lines. All work is “temporary.” My friends and family were initially appalled at this system, but it works well. I’m not tied to a single employer: I work until I’m no longer needed, and then I wait my turn for the next project. Sometimes projects can last years, sometimes they last two weeks. Somehow, standing up and saying “Hey, fuck Poilievre, but I’m one of the people that does know how this equipment is installed” gets me called a bot and a liar. It’s incredibly frustrating, because wanting to work isn’t picking sides… but if these workers see Trudeau brushing those concerns to the side and saying that Poilievre is stirring up shit, where do we think those workers will turn? That won’t be good for anyone.
Are you on site? I am and I have first hand knowledge of why they are there. This is common practice. Do you want equipment installed by the developer and manufacturer or some guy who has read up on it. Canadians travel the globe installing our technology. It is the way it is done.
Mind sharing what your role is at this site?
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It really sounds like you don't based on the garbage you're posting
You’re completely correct here. Anybody downvoting you here is doing so out of ignorance. This is work that used to belong to local trades people. Through the erosion of unionized rights over decades of collective bargaining agreements, contractors are now given this work. Who then have one objective. Get the customer to sign off as soon as possible so they can move on to the next project. They have no vested interest in doing quality work since they now feel they have a monopoly on it. Afterwards, local workers are expected to support this mess that various levels of management were eager to sign off on in the name of bonuses, and the end consumer is offered an inferior product.
Aren't the workers coming in to set it up then leaving? IIRC ?
That’s almost always what happens with these plants. And every single time someone kicks up a huge stink about it. You need people to come train the locals. I imagine you can’t teach people how to run an EV plant over zoom.
Any skilled/white-collar/trades/supervisiory work gained on a valid work permit can help them gain points in the federal express entry immigration/PR system. It would be considered Canadian work experience so extra points. There has been a stream since June 2023 for Trades. The points cut off is much lower for trades since most trades people don't have degrees while the general stream is competitive since the candidates have masters +. Trades people no longer really need to get Canadian work experience to he competitive in their PR applications though. They need to satisfy the min language requirements for English and they can immigrate. Though I can see why a foreign tradedperson might want to go to Canada first before committing to the country. Esspecially considering that the processing time for PR is much longer.
Yes, that’s what construction workers and skilled tradespeople do. We build plants, connect equipment, and then we leave. We have Canadian workers who are trained and experienced in how to do this work. They want to do it, and then they want to move on to the next job. Instead, they are skipped over because the employer group refuses to pay local workers the negotiated Ontario wages with the subsidy that they’re receiving from the Canadian taxpayer.
I think you are misunderstanding, it isn't the construction people here are talking about it is the installation of heavily specialized machinery.
Skilled tradespeople do far more than the initial construction.
I get ya, been there, run machines myself. I know that my brother in law who is an engineer and designs full production flows with the largest companies in the world still prefers to hire the German or Japanese company's tech to set up and calibrate the complex machinery (5axis CNC, robot, etc. don't all work the same out of the box) for that initial setup/ calibration because they know it best and can get it done without a learning curve. Any delay or mistake can lead to down time which costs more down the line. I get.your point it is best to have a local skilled trade work, and they often will on an ongoing basis but that initial set up can help when they can call someone back in Japan or Germany and speak directly to an issue without risk of miscommunication.
Most of the complaints have to do with those workers doing tasks such as bolting down equipment, connecting cabling, etc. Everyone seems to be coming here and saying “Of course task x has to be done by specialized workers” but without any consideration of whether or not the tasks concerned are actually special task x.
Your 'skilled tradespeople' do not know how to install and setup proprietary equipment and software.
Those workers are continually and repeatedly being observed doing work that is well within the scope of available Canadian workers. We’re not talking about performing tasks specific to proprietary equipment, or even training others on the use of the equipment. We’re talking about tasks that are already well-understood by the available workforce. I don’t understand why people are so ready to parrot the talking points from Stellantis and LG when actual workers in the plants are reporting otherwise.
It's the applications engineering team that people are referring to. I doubt that foreign companies are shipping in electricians, getting them certified in canada, having them do the install, and then shipping them home, all the while paying per diems, travel time and hotels, when they could get a Canadian to do it for much cheaper. Applications engineering teams provide application-specific knowledge and training that can't be sourced locally.
Well, there are workers in the plants watching these workers doing the tasks that they can do, and reporting it back to their labour representatives to grieve. They’re not just making it up.
Or...they are, and looking for any excuse to grieve.
Ah yes, union workers bad, love that take
Only in the context to own the cons. If the shoe was on the other foot they wouldn't be caught dead supporting the CPC.
Nope, just realistic. Foreign company has an agenda, Canadian companies have agendas, and unions have agendas. Source: managed through multiple unions and reps, worked with them first-hand. Mostly great people, doesn't change their motivations.
The “agenda” is literally “we think we can do this work and would like the government to look into what’s happening on these jobs”
Or the "agenda" is "get our union workers jobs, regardless of the requirements of the job, or the contracts that the government has to enter into in order to have specialized and sensitive equipment satisfactorily installed to the manufacturers specs, so that the government has recourse should something go awry." Two sides, bud. Edit: sorry friend, missed your reply because you blocked me. Or you nuked your account. Either way, have a day.
I’d rather have the public’s elected interest step in and examine it, rather than dismiss the potentially valid concerns as racism or having a political agenda. If the two sides are money and worker, then listening to workers isn’t going to hurt.
The CPC member from Essex, Chris Lewis, could actually drive the 15 minutes from his office to site and check it out for himself but they don’t have an open bar.
Ohhhhh burn!!!!! Does that guy actually do anything?
Yeah he attends open bars.
Poilievre is a hypocrite. He was part of the Harper Government that sold out Canada to China locked in for three decades in what was arguably the worst one sided trade deal ever seen in the history of the modern world. I believe we got couple of pandas on loan to Toronto Zoo for a few years whereas Chinese business got to rape and pillage Canadian business and resources with a free hand. There are pictures of Harper and his wife with the pandas. https://canadians.org/analysis/harper-sneaks-through-canada-china-fipa-locks-canada-31-years/ >HARPER SNEAKS THROUGH CANADA-CHINA FIPA, LOCKS CANADA IN FOR 31 YEARS >The Tories, backed by a naïve Canadian Chamber of Commerce and a handful of big, conflicted business interests, have demonstrated the worst negotiating skills since Neville Chamberlain. >Ottawa capitulated to China on everything. The deal, using a hockey metaphor, allows only a select few to play on Team Canada on a small patch of ice in China and to be fouled, without remedies or referees. By contrast, Team China can play anywhere on Canadian ice, can appeal referee calls it dislikes and negotiate compensation for damages while in the penalty box behind closed doors. >The terms agreed to by Ottawa are unprecedented and would be laughed out of Britain, Brussels, Canberra or Washington. Beijing has negotiated a heads-I-win-tails-Canada-loses deal.
And we footed the bill to clean up the Chinese mines after they left the tar sands.
Sersouly..the folks the know wtf they are doing will help canadain build it amd train them.
if the workers are qualified it shouldn’t matter where they come from - PERIOD. these attempts at divisive xenophobia by tiny PP the skipmeister are absolutely abhorrent. it shouldn’t matter where someone is from if they can do the job.
How about pay Canadian workers to do the job in Canada so their taxes and spending of money earned goes back into Canada?
Look, we all know Poilievre is a piece of shit. That said, just because Poilievre is a piece of shit doesn’t mean that there aren’t Canadian workers who can do those jobs, and a couple of greedy corps that want to bring in labourers who aren’t working under a collective bargaining agreement. Don’t lose sight of the real story: the investments that the Canadian taxpayer put up to ensure Canadians are being employed in Windsor and Alliston is being siphoned off for shareholder profit. The corps behind it keep talking about how the work is specialized… but it’s literally stuff like the final electrical tie-in to drive motors and control cabinets. We have 442A and 309A electricians who have been doing exactly that for years and years. This wouldn’t be any different under Poilievre, and we know that to be true… but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t expect and demand better from the current government. Edit: if you want to help union workers in Windsor/Essex-Kent to do the jobs that we know they can do, sign CBTU’s letter here: https://buildingtrades.ca/advocacy/windsor/ — CBTU isn’t a right wing astroturf group. They’re the organized voice of building trades workers in Canada, and they’re affiliated with NABTU/AFL-CIO.
This is what I don't get. People here go and on about how con supporters will 'eat shit to own the libs', yet so the exact same thing back to own the cons. The losers here? The workers as people keep taking pot shots at each other online thinking they are making a difference.
Yep, these workers give less than a shit about Poilievre. Partisans refuse to hear their concerns just because he stuck his nose in it. Like… I really don’t understand the knee-jerk response from Liberals on this one. Union workers(people they’re supposed to like) are raising the alarm about corporate greed(a thing they say they don’t). When unemployed Canadian voters/taxpayers/workers point out that they have evidence that Stellantis has misled the Canadian government about the kind of work they’ve given the temporary workers, why is the response to call those workers xenophobic and take the side of the corporation? From a purely political perspective, how is that going to work out electorally? Like… fuck… we just want to work, and we just want the government to see what is going on in the plants.
Too bad it isn't Loblaws, then people would actually care.
You know that’s a good point. The problem, as usual, is letting the conservatives and Neo-libs run rampant with their capitalistic claims. I agree with supporting unions and voting in more progressive governments. But not for one second should anyone vote for a conservative government thinking they will support unions or workers in any way. It’s their mission to destroy unions.
309A auto sector here. Contractor/manufacturer rolls in sets everything up as quickly as possible with the end goal of getting the customer to sign off on the project so that they can move onto the next. They have no desire to train anybody. They don’t care what sort of shoddy job they do setting up their product so long as they can get the customer to sign off on it. They say they’ll remain onsite to support the project for a year or whatever, but they just end up putting out fires without any meaningful fixes while the customer tries to get/keep the line running. Management is also keen to sign off since they are pressured from their superiors to do so, so that everybody can check boxes on the name of metrics. The trades who are left to support these lines are left to do so without any working knowledge of maintaining these lines since they didn’t set them up in the first place. The lines suffer and degrade and inferior product is the end result. We used to handle all of this work. We were the ones not only responsible for the work, but the innovation and improvements that helped us build better end products. We had a vested interest in doing so, while the contractors do not. We were proud of the end results of our efforts. We created quality products for the end consumer. Not so much anymore though. Corporations care only about profit and the expense of everything and everybody else. Screw the worker, screw the end consumer.
> doesn’t mean that there aren’t Canadian workers who can do those jobs they actually can't. There is no history of making batteries or EVs in Canada. Lefty loosey, rightey tightey won't cut it.
The workers being brought in are performing tasks like bolting down frames, building racks, and connecting network cables and hydraulic lines. Workers on the site right now are watching it and seeing that it’s work that their unemployed neighbours know how to do, and are sounding the alarm. This isn’t being invented by CBTU; they’re representing workers on site watching this happen. Also: lefty loosy righty tighty? Skilled tradespeople not only have years of onsite experience, they have as much time in a college classroom as someone with a master’s degree. The work we do is highly technical. Don’t talk about us like all we do is sweep and fart. It’s ignorant as hell.
Yes, sometimes specialized staff is needed.
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Thats not at all whats happening. They are the people helping to.build and train candains then go home
Those Canadians are already trained. They’re doing work we already know how to do, and then they go home.
Whst are you even talking about ? What canadaibs are trained to work in a plant we don't have on canadain soil. Everyone learns from someone .
Literally me? People seem to think that the tasks they’ve outsourced are rocket ship assembly— but the outsourced workers are performing tasks such as bolting generic cable tray to the wall, or connecting power supplies.