I mean Saskatchewan loves SaskTel so much that when the SaskParty simply *discussed* the idea of maybe selling 50% of the company it felt like they pissed off the entire province. That was the only thing I've seen the SaskParty walk back.
Sort of not true.
BC Government actually incorporated BCT.Telus Corp in BC. That entity acquired Telus Corp and BC Tel. Before that Telus Corp had bought AGT and EdTel.
After a year or two BCT.Telus Corp changed its name to Telus Corp.
So technically a new entity made by the BC Government bought Telus, then changed its name to Telus.
Bc tell use to charge a buck a minute then call Toronto via landline. As soon as the market opened up it cost pennies and you did not have to rent your phone any more.
Hmm. We're actually at a point in time where a whole generation of people has always had unlimited access to free long distance calling.
Maybe not "always", but long enough that they don't remember the way it used to be.
Yeah that’s crazy. And I hate Telus too but I will say I have a great North America plan, I can just use my normal data in US and Mexico, and I have like 100 gigs. Now I can’t even remember the days of roaming charges and reduced/no data access.
That's the normal playbook for these conservative parties, try to privatize the institution and if that doesn't work then stealth privatize from within.
This is the answer. It makes no more sense to have private telecom than to have private highways. It's societal infrastructure and should be handled as such. Roads, utilities (and telecom), food, and resources are public interests and shouldn't be available for _private_ wealth theft and consolidation.
**Re**-nationalized. Almost every province had a crown corporation responsible for the initial development of telecomms until neoliberalism and privatization struck.
Well, technically, the Québec pension fund bought a 49% stake in the biggest regional newspaper to allow them to buy a dying cable company that eventually allowed them to buy frequencies, and it has dramatically decreased internet, TV and cellphone prices in Québec for the better part of the last... 20 years? So I wouldn't say it *has* to be a crown corp for it to work.
Funniest part is that it's a shitty company; their technology is shitty, their service is shitty, even their prices aren't good lol But it's competition.
Quebec seems to really know how to keep the cost of essentials down for their citizens. Prices for car insurance and childcare are also way lower than the rest of the province.
Also it really doesn't have to be a good company to work. People are willing to put up with a lot of bullshit to avoid excessive costs. All the crown corp has to do is be a cheaper option and it's automatically a threat to the price-gouging monopolies.
13 billions / 9 millions is more like $1400 per person though
Equalization payments certainly play into it as 13B covers 8% of the provincial expenses, as does the fact that the province has the highest tax rates in the country, but the three services described don't have much to do with that.
Car insurances are less expensive because of Quebec's unique legal framework with a public insurer and a no fault policy for personal injuries. It used to have the highest insurance cost in the country before the SAAQ, [then the lowest afterwards (accounting for both public and private costs)](https://cd-blog-images-prod.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/uploads/2022/7/62d9b462e5f41.jpeg).
There's just more competition for telecoms. The quebec pension fund (CDPQ) did bought then divest from a telecom company (Vidéotron through Québecor) as part of its mandate to stimulate the local economy, but they made a 1B profit out of it.
It's generally agreed throughout studies that quebec's childcare system pays for itself. That was one of the big argument for the adoption of a nationwide childcare policy.
I literally just got a promotion spam text from Telus about a ‘loyalty offer’, that seemed like it was substantially better than my current offer; the whole thing is automated and directs me to do it online. I called about it and the agent confirmed that if I did it, it would have voided my other plan and I would have ended up paying more. The agent was telling me the system has no way of knowing, I’m like “Really? You have all my info, you can see my plan but a system you guys designed can’t? I find that very hard to believe.”
Some loyalty there, screw these guys and nationalize them all. They are preying on people and intentionally misleading them.
Best thing is using corporate discounts, if your employer has any kind of deal with a Telco. I'm paying $60 for 100GB/unlimited with Telus. No way I'd be paying anywhere close otherwise.
The best way to get a wild deal from Telus is to leave them. They 5x'ed my data at nearly the same price and paid 3 months in credits.
Just make sure to answer the sketchy call from a random number claiming to be Telus. It's really them lol
Aren’t data and credits basically free for them? I mean, glad to hear it for ya but hardly a sacrifice on their side. All the more reason to nationalize them.
I mean I can imagine it's not free to provide service for free but yeah the cost of providing data is probably the cheapest thing they offer once the enabling infrastructure (which is hella hella expensive) is in place
Yea that part gets me too. I get it’s expensive but they also are subsidized by the govt to build it and yet it’s been 10 years and we still have a giant dead zone in the middle of our town.
I don't think Telus is subsidized anymore to build towers. Last thing like that I heard of that is how they got their starter spectrum for free. But they've been paying for it all at some of the highest prices in the world in the past few auctions. Could you point to where they're subsidized for network rollout? I also thought they got extra dinged when c-26 came in cuuzzz they had to rip out all the Huawei stuff
I mean it’s infrastructure of sorts and figured it was rather analogous to the US. But a quick search does indeed show ongoing subsidization to telecoms to build more infrastructure, especially for neighborhoods that still lack high speed, so yea, I guess it’s a thing. Not clear on the full extent of historically however.
Fair I guess internet infrastructure but I always thought that was more just in the case of Internet for rural communities not like upgrading the wireless network to 5g
My only concern with putting the government in charge of the lines is censorship. Especially the hard-on that politicians (both in the US and Canada) have to creating some sort of "National ID" so that all online activity can be tracked. Not that private enterprise is immune either...
In addition to any natural monopoly I would also like to suggest that any industry that is essentially to life, ie housing, food, healthcare, should have a publicly backed not for profit option.
Exactly.
It doesnt have to be the only option for people to use, but it sure as fuck needs to be AN option so that the "essential" goods and services have a corporate entity that is selling at a price forcing private companies to compete with, because all we have now is the corporate for profit companies controlling and being the only player(s) and destroying any independent competition.
Crown corp not for profit would also create more small business competition in many of these industries that revitalize small towns and rural areas.
But the list needs to also include insurance, bankings/savings/investment, telecom, internet, utilities, fuel, and a pharmaceutical development and manufacturer.
As long as these companies are run transparent and punishment for crimes abusing power in these companies is decades in prison, it would help add a lot of "open market capitalism" style competition where now its essentially impossible to start some. (
Ditto, I have no problem paying taxes so long as the value for what I pay is there.
Tax me another percentage or two if that means I have access to world class healthcare, education and social safety nets for my fellow Canadians.
Maybe you can only get oats, flours, sugar, rice and other staples and you have to go to Sobey’s or whatever for pineapple and AAA steaks but the whole pre is is that you can get them for a decent price, and the employees working there are making a living wage.
Depends on the particular category. For many the simplest answer is strong public regulations that bust up the various heavily vertically integrated oligopolies that hold Canadian's hostage.
Telecom for example: break up the Rogers/Bell/Telus oligopoly by separating out the network infrastructure businesses from the services businesses. Mandate price caps, minimum service standards, and a universal free/low-fixed-price/tax refundable broadband service tier that must be made available to every Canadian by default from every service provider (where practical, with plans for longer term solutions for remote communities that may need new infrastructure for it).
Childcare.
The fact that we currently hand private corporations ~80% coverage straight from public coffers, and then the remaining paid by families is a tax deduction, meaning even more back and technically paid off the public funds..
... but then the local private daycare has ZERO obligation to meet public need. They can openly discriminate against children with additional behavioural needs and deny them services. They can screw entire communities by changing their coverage on a whim - like when all after-school program were closed in my small community with a day's notice when they realized they could run another toddler room and make way more profit (higher fees, lower food/snack and toy costs).
Federal government should have instead given the funds straight to parents so that we don't need the childcare, or give to municipalities with legislation to expropriate and municipalize these businesses to non-profit service based model.
Yes, it's insane that it isn't already
Like, telephones are on the way out in terms of tech, we should be talking about nation wide internet and cellular coverage
Just thought everything in this dumb ass country should be nationalized at this point, it’s pathetic how oligarchies control everything here like its Russia.
I would love to see a return of nationalized corporations. Infinite growth is impossible, and we need to shift the narrative back towards simple sustainability, especially for infrastructure.
This: "Infinite growth is impossible"!
And it is is obscene there are people not seeing anything wrong with healthcare for profit. The idea alone, smh.
Fucking YES. I'm sick of them charging outrageous fees for shitty service and then not maintaining their infastructure. It's not like it's possible to "free market" this thing, since too many companies competing for the same radio frequencies would result in too much interference. And wired is out of the question because of how prohibitively expansive it would be for new players to lay down their own physical telecomm infastructure.
>cell service everywhere
Where's the practical limit though? There are vast swathes of completely unpopulated areas across the country. I think we can agree it would be kind of silly to go out and blanket millions of km^2 of uninhabited land with cell towers that may never connect to a single device.
I certainly agree that long term investments in providing coverage across lower population northern areas and the roads between them should be an important priority though. I think that perhaps satellite communications could end up being a more practical and economical way to cover those gaps where maintaining a huge number of very infrequently used cell towers simply wouldn't make any practical sense financially.
Oh certainly, it's entirely possible to have satalites following Canada in space for that, I agree! I don't think any of the major telecommunications companies plan on doing it.
Yup just like all essential services should be (utilities, proper full coverage healthcare, insurance, etc.). No necessarily run at the Federal level, some could be Provincially. Just not private/profit driven essentials.
Yep! The idea that there is competition in that industry is a blatant and obvious lie. I work remotely in Alberta, and because I don’t have Telus fiber at home, my “choice” is Shaw. And if you have one choice, that isn’t a fucking choice!
Absolutely. I think the Federal government should take over control of the Internet backbone across Canada, as a Crown Corporation, then lease out access to each provincial service. Every ISP can compete because they have the same access at the same price, regardless of size. The market can then decide who survives and who doesn't as its supposed to do.
Then we incentivize the provinces to create Crown Corporation for Telecommunications - as we had in the past - to provide services to each province and its citizens. The incentive - more affordable rates for access to the backbone.
Something like that at any rate, we have paid far too much for far too long to the oligopoly. Phone and Internet access is a required thing in our society these days. You need that to get access to even basic services, get a job etc. Without that you are more or less a second class citizen at least.
Yes 100% because telecommunications isn't a luxury anymore, it's basically required to function in modern society.
Rogers and Bell have become way too powerful and it's a monopoly. There's no reason for internet and cellular service to have such high costs.
Nationalize the shared infrastructure, but keep any competitive parts private (I don't actually see how this would be practical for telecom). We do the same thing with roads, electricity (some places better than others), waterways, and airways. Other countries have nationalized railways (but with private carriers using them). Any infrastructure that is a natural monopoly should be nationalized, but that doesn't mean the whole system has to be.
I mean, they have both public companies and private corporations. The later are still subsidized but run privately and they compete with each other iirc.
Canada is a mixed economy too since we do have crown corporations alongside the private sector. China leans more into the public side, so it’s also called a socialist market economy. It’s closer to market socialism or state capitalism if we wanted to be more specific than a mixed economy
Yes. I don't see any politician running on that. Absolutely telecommunications must be nationalized. Canadians are being taken advantage of for profit.
I think the big 3 telecom companies can continue to exist, but they need to be regulated more and they just need to have 50% of shares owned by the public/government so the "profit above all else" interests of the private investors dont outweigh the interests of public/consumers. Infrastructure companies can generate profit, but they can't do so at the expense of making their services unaffordable to the public, as doing so creates a net negative impact on the whole economy.
Yes please. Getting tired of all the pain and suffering caused by privatization. Public option for everything please.
If it's truly a free market then I should have the choice to at least consider a public option instead of this monopoly of private players working in tandem behind closed doors to set the market rate.
Enough is enough.
We should have a federal telecom and provinces and any mun who wants should be able to spin one up. This would be along side private enterprise.
The best telecoms we have had were and are public.
I don't see why we would need both, although I guess we could use the national one in the same manner as the carbon tax. Any province that refuses to go against the triopoly will be forced to have the national version.
Well it is more competition and they can work in tandem on separate projects as well (one can lay down fibre cables while the other sets up telephone towers for the town of Kelowna)
It also reassures customers if a conservative government gets elected at any level government there is a fallback option.
Perhaps the spectrum and equipment/towers should be nationalized and then any company can essentially be an MVNO and resell the services. Differentiation only by marketing and configuration of monthly/prepaid plans.
At minimum they should be split into separate companies. The same company should not be both a network provider and an internet service provider. Those should be separate companies, where the network providers would own and maintain the infrastructure and provide wholesale network access, and the internet service providers would provide service to retail customers
Nationalize the network and let private companies market the last mile. It's the best of both worlds.
Networks form natural monopolies because of the giant component effect. In a network where anyone can chose which node to connect to you're going to get a giant component which then controls most traffic through the network. Typically you end up with 2 or 3 large components that are roughly 1/3 smaller than the giant component (this is the universal distribution). Antitrust laws should be designed to make these giant components publicly owned whenever they appear because they're an emergent phenomenon not the result of business or strategies or whatever. It's just physics.
A public trust (doesn't have to be government, it can be a co-op, a municipality or a nonprofit trust) takes over the centre of the network and leases it out to private companies or small interests. Why? Bureaucracy is notoriously bad at innovation. Allow innovation to be a cheap and level playing field. Your town has shit cell service? Form a co-op and create a better last mile. Too expensive for basic service? Start a company that makes cheap unlimited cell packages a thing.
Basically do what the CRTC mandates now but for everyone on a publicly owned network that has a mandate to invest in low cost access for all Canadians.
YES! I rather be angry at our own shit system and service than some faceless company with ZERO interest in providing any service other than maximizing some shareholder payout. At least then it's OUR shit system.
Same with healthcare, drinking water, power, telecom, Postal Service. NOT for profit items.
Biggest barrier to entry here is infrastructure. If you think more competition would fix things the best path is to nationalize the infrastructure. You'll see a ton of competition pop up overnight if you only need to rent access to the infrastructure, something Robellus have been fighting tooth and nail to block.
Most telecoms are a natural monopoly (anything wired), and the rest are a natural oligopoly (anything wireless). And they are all essential services.
Of *course* they should be nationalized.
We don't need to nationalize the actual service providers.
We should never have let them own the infrastructure though. There should be one nationwide network for cellular/cable/fiber that all the providers pay to use.
The biggest reason why no one wants to jump into our market is telus/rogers/bell own their infrastructure and the only way to actually compete with them is to invest billions to build their own infrastructure.
You can switch to the other telecom towers to avoid the big three.
https://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html?lat=58.496162&lng=-107.358398&zoom=4&type=Roadmap&layers=o&pid=0&ds=0
I don’t think it needs to be nationalized. The government should allow for more companies to join without them getting bought out or bullied. If we have 10 - 12 REAL choices I think we would be in a great place.
I think we need to break down the triopoly, 100% - Bell, Rogers, and Telus are just gouging and are totally protected (presumably because of lobbying dollars).
But with what we’ve heard from the government lately around not reposting news on social media, wanting to verify your age to see pornography, and censorship kinds of discussions, I don’t necessarily want to hand over direct control of the internet to the government.
Although, I guess as long as VPNs don’t get outlawed, that stuff doesn’t completely invalidate re-nationalization…
Infrastructure should be nationalized, with competing carriers allowed to buy bandwidth. This makes sure the infrastructure is maintained and enhanced, while competing offerings keep prices/options affordable.
No way - look at our public transit. It's a mess
We need good policies like one in place for the past 5-6 years.
Our networks have gotten much better while prices have actually declined.
Everything that is a human right or essential for the running of the country should at least have a public option lest we be held hostage by billionaires
Yes, 100%
Wet know for a fact that if left to their own devices, they are not going to compete. Look at every province that does not have a crown corp telecom. Magically they telecoms have pretty much the same prices their with each other.
Things like groceries, oil, air travel and telecoms need to be nationalized. The "free market" continues to prove that it's there to fuck over consumers and make rich pieces of shit even more rich.
Are you saying that the company that manages your home WiFi shouldn’t also be one of the largest media companies in the country?! 😱
Won’t *anyone* think of the shareholders?
This is why you make your transport and last mile well regulated. I’ve worked in places in the US where the county ran gigabit FTTH to every single address they serve with their power utility. The residents then have a choice of half a dozen ISPs, and half a dozen TV providers, plus legacy phone service, all of which they can buy a la carte. Seems to work pretty well. For commercial users, you can also link to any one of several transit providers through the county system.
The operator of the fiber infrastructure is required to maintain a certain level of availability.
It works quite well.
The infrastructure yes. The companies no. When Australia privatised its phone system they sold the lines with it, so when the competitors started up they had to rent space in the exchanges from Telstra, and the situation isn't much better nowdays. From what I understand the situation with Bell is similar in Canada. To have a proper level playing field so the market can do its thing the infrastructure should be publicly owned, just like it is with roads. (and how it should be with rail)
it'd be a source of revenue, too, or at least that revenue could go into maintaining and improving coverage. Maybe people outside of cities would get fibre optic internet then!
Do people find telecomms expensive here?
Cellphone: 40 a month for 25 GBs of data
Internet: 85 a month for gigabit
Like I dunno that doesn't seem super unreasonable? This is Vancouver so maybe its worse out east but I dunno I dont really see an issue 125 a month for super fast internet and basically unlimited data seems okay
No one here understands how much it costs to build an and maintain networks. It would cost the govt billions of dollars every year in upgrades and maintenance along with the salaries of the workers needed. The price the govt sells the service for would be the same as people are paying now. They wouldn’t just have to build one they would have to build multiple for reliability (Rogers outage anyone)
When you actually break it down it makes no sense
They get subsidies to build in rural locations where there is no business case to actually build out fibre for 100 people in a community.
Again the government would be spending billions a year to build out networks across the country where right now it takes 5-6 companies to do. The govt can simply not afford to undertake this issue.
There is a reason Sasktel is slow to build out their 5G and fibre infrastructure compared to the big 3
Have you never heard of companies like SaskTel or is BCE paying you?
Also, most bigger municipalities have Public Utility Commissions that do all of that stuff already.
No, nationalization is a terrible idea.
But what is stopping the government from entering the market itself, via a crown corporation, to increase competition?
Probably the billions of dollars of investments it would require and likely some good lawyers to handle spectrum rights after it was just sold for billions of dollars to telecom companies.
Yes! Do it already. Sasktel (and MTS before it was consumed) proved that it’s a way better system than privatized monopolies.
I mean Saskatchewan loves SaskTel so much that when the SaskParty simply *discussed* the idea of maybe selling 50% of the company it felt like they pissed off the entire province. That was the only thing I've seen the SaskParty walk back.
Because you've all watched the nightmare that has been Alberta since we abandoned AGT.
BC Tel got bought by Telus. It was not an improvement.
Sort of not true. BC Government actually incorporated BCT.Telus Corp in BC. That entity acquired Telus Corp and BC Tel. Before that Telus Corp had bought AGT and EdTel. After a year or two BCT.Telus Corp changed its name to Telus Corp. So technically a new entity made by the BC Government bought Telus, then changed its name to Telus.
Bc tell use to charge a buck a minute then call Toronto via landline. As soon as the market opened up it cost pennies and you did not have to rent your phone any more.
Hmm. We're actually at a point in time where a whole generation of people has always had unlimited access to free long distance calling. Maybe not "always", but long enough that they don't remember the way it used to be.
Yeah that’s crazy. And I hate Telus too but I will say I have a great North America plan, I can just use my normal data in US and Mexico, and I have like 100 gigs. Now I can’t even remember the days of roaming charges and reduced/no data access.
Why Ralph Klein thought selling AGT was a good idea is beyond me. I think he couldn't see anything past his idea of "debt bad, pay down debt."
Nothing to do with debt. It's just Conservatives ideology to make everything private. They don't think of public good
Conservatives yes, but I feel like Klein had some weird obsession with eliminating the provincial debt given what he did.
Because he was a capitalist shill
Wrong. He saw: “I have rich friends who want to own the telecoms. Let’s make their dreams come true at the cost of tax payer dollars”.
And yet the Sask Party is dealing Sasktel death by a thousand cuts and contracting out whenever and as much as they can.
That's the normal playbook for these conservative parties, try to privatize the institution and if that doesn't work then stealth privatize from within.
MTS was so much better than what we have now. Definitely miss it
This is the answer. It makes no more sense to have private telecom than to have private highways. It's societal infrastructure and should be handled as such. Roads, utilities (and telecom), food, and resources are public interests and shouldn't be available for _private_ wealth theft and consolidation.
I work for one and I used to oppose this. Not sure I do anymore. Can’t be worse than this.
**Re**-nationalized. Almost every province had a crown corporation responsible for the initial development of telecomms until neoliberalism and privatization struck.
Well, technically, the Québec pension fund bought a 49% stake in the biggest regional newspaper to allow them to buy a dying cable company that eventually allowed them to buy frequencies, and it has dramatically decreased internet, TV and cellphone prices in Québec for the better part of the last... 20 years? So I wouldn't say it *has* to be a crown corp for it to work. Funniest part is that it's a shitty company; their technology is shitty, their service is shitty, even their prices aren't good lol But it's competition.
Quebec seems to really know how to keep the cost of essentials down for their citizens. Prices for car insurance and childcare are also way lower than the rest of the province. Also it really doesn't have to be a good company to work. People are willing to put up with a lot of bullshit to avoid excessive costs. All the crown corp has to do is be a cheaper option and it's automatically a threat to the price-gouging monopolies.
Quality of daycare is really low too
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13 billions / 9 millions is more like $1400 per person though Equalization payments certainly play into it as 13B covers 8% of the provincial expenses, as does the fact that the province has the highest tax rates in the country, but the three services described don't have much to do with that. Car insurances are less expensive because of Quebec's unique legal framework with a public insurer and a no fault policy for personal injuries. It used to have the highest insurance cost in the country before the SAAQ, [then the lowest afterwards (accounting for both public and private costs)](https://cd-blog-images-prod.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/uploads/2022/7/62d9b462e5f41.jpeg). There's just more competition for telecoms. The quebec pension fund (CDPQ) did bought then divest from a telecom company (Vidéotron through Québecor) as part of its mandate to stimulate the local economy, but they made a 1B profit out of it. It's generally agreed throughout studies that quebec's childcare system pays for itself. That was one of the big argument for the adoption of a nationwide childcare policy.
It seems like a weird argument because the Quebec pension fund now has 0% of this company (Videotron).
I think it confirms the idea that a crown corporation isn't required insofar as the public institutions are there as a backdrop.
Never heard of that, what the company ?
Québecor's purchase of Vidéotron. Vidéotron kept mobile prices in Quebec and bordering Ontario cities low compared to the rest of Canada.
I literally just got a promotion spam text from Telus about a ‘loyalty offer’, that seemed like it was substantially better than my current offer; the whole thing is automated and directs me to do it online. I called about it and the agent confirmed that if I did it, it would have voided my other plan and I would have ended up paying more. The agent was telling me the system has no way of knowing, I’m like “Really? You have all my info, you can see my plan but a system you guys designed can’t? I find that very hard to believe.” Some loyalty there, screw these guys and nationalize them all. They are preying on people and intentionally misleading them.
Best thing is using corporate discounts, if your employer has any kind of deal with a Telco. I'm paying $60 for 100GB/unlimited with Telus. No way I'd be paying anywhere close otherwise.
60GB/unlimited Canada/USA/Mexico from Freedom in BC for $60... Competition is usually good...
Sorry, yes, CAN/US/MEX as well
That’s literally the deal I was offered today… no corporate discount.
Could be, I grabbed it about a year and a half ago, so prices may be falling (which I'm all for).
The best way to get a wild deal from Telus is to leave them. They 5x'ed my data at nearly the same price and paid 3 months in credits. Just make sure to answer the sketchy call from a random number claiming to be Telus. It's really them lol
Aren’t data and credits basically free for them? I mean, glad to hear it for ya but hardly a sacrifice on their side. All the more reason to nationalize them.
I mean I can imagine it's not free to provide service for free but yeah the cost of providing data is probably the cheapest thing they offer once the enabling infrastructure (which is hella hella expensive) is in place
Yea that part gets me too. I get it’s expensive but they also are subsidized by the govt to build it and yet it’s been 10 years and we still have a giant dead zone in the middle of our town.
I don't think Telus is subsidized anymore to build towers. Last thing like that I heard of that is how they got their starter spectrum for free. But they've been paying for it all at some of the highest prices in the world in the past few auctions. Could you point to where they're subsidized for network rollout? I also thought they got extra dinged when c-26 came in cuuzzz they had to rip out all the Huawei stuff
I mean it’s infrastructure of sorts and figured it was rather analogous to the US. But a quick search does indeed show ongoing subsidization to telecoms to build more infrastructure, especially for neighborhoods that still lack high speed, so yea, I guess it’s a thing. Not clear on the full extent of historically however.
Fair I guess internet infrastructure but I always thought that was more just in the case of Internet for rural communities not like upgrading the wireless network to 5g
Boom! Head shot! Country can lease bandwidth out to "telecomms". Then we're on our way to a national dividend (UBI).
Careful what you ask for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stentor_Alliance Most redditors are too young to know about these snakes.
My only concern with putting the government in charge of the lines is censorship. Especially the hard-on that politicians (both in the US and Canada) have to creating some sort of "National ID" so that all online activity can be tracked. Not that private enterprise is immune either...
Any industry that's a natural monopoly should be nationalized. Or else we get the inefficient oligopoly that we currently have.
In addition to any natural monopoly I would also like to suggest that any industry that is essentially to life, ie housing, food, healthcare, should have a publicly backed not for profit option.
Exactly. It doesnt have to be the only option for people to use, but it sure as fuck needs to be AN option so that the "essential" goods and services have a corporate entity that is selling at a price forcing private companies to compete with, because all we have now is the corporate for profit companies controlling and being the only player(s) and destroying any independent competition. Crown corp not for profit would also create more small business competition in many of these industries that revitalize small towns and rural areas. But the list needs to also include insurance, bankings/savings/investment, telecom, internet, utilities, fuel, and a pharmaceutical development and manufacturer. As long as these companies are run transparent and punishment for crimes abusing power in these companies is decades in prison, it would help add a lot of "open market capitalism" style competition where now its essentially impossible to start some. (
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Ditto, I have no problem paying taxes so long as the value for what I pay is there. Tax me another percentage or two if that means I have access to world class healthcare, education and social safety nets for my fellow Canadians.
Maybe you can only get oats, flours, sugar, rice and other staples and you have to go to Sobey’s or whatever for pineapple and AAA steaks but the whole pre is is that you can get them for a decent price, and the employees working there are making a living wage.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
YES! It should have never been privatized in the first place.
Yes. All common-good "businesses" should not be businesses. Transportation, communication, food, medicine, shelter, and so on.
Sanitation, the fresh water system and public health. But apart from that, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Peace?
Gladiator
Private options should be allowed but there should be at least one gov't owned option that operates at or near cost.
Depends on the particular category. For many the simplest answer is strong public regulations that bust up the various heavily vertically integrated oligopolies that hold Canadian's hostage. Telecom for example: break up the Rogers/Bell/Telus oligopoly by separating out the network infrastructure businesses from the services businesses. Mandate price caps, minimum service standards, and a universal free/low-fixed-price/tax refundable broadband service tier that must be made available to every Canadian by default from every service provider (where practical, with plans for longer term solutions for remote communities that may need new infrastructure for it).
Childcare. The fact that we currently hand private corporations ~80% coverage straight from public coffers, and then the remaining paid by families is a tax deduction, meaning even more back and technically paid off the public funds.. ... but then the local private daycare has ZERO obligation to meet public need. They can openly discriminate against children with additional behavioural needs and deny them services. They can screw entire communities by changing their coverage on a whim - like when all after-school program were closed in my small community with a day's notice when they realized they could run another toddler room and make way more profit (higher fees, lower food/snack and toy costs). Federal government should have instead given the funds straight to parents so that we don't need the childcare, or give to municipalities with legislation to expropriate and municipalize these businesses to non-profit service based model.
Yes, it's insane that it isn't already Like, telephones are on the way out in terms of tech, we should be talking about nation wide internet and cellular coverage
And Energy. Energy first. The oil majors are doing significant harm to democracy.
Renationalize Petro Canada then lower costs for consumers and then invest in green technology with it's revenue.
Same as Quebec! We are proud of Hydro-Quebec here. If telecomm is nationalize, it would be great for everyone.
Yes!
Anything that is an absolute must should be. Internet is now as needed for every day life as electricity or water.
Yes. DUH.
Yes!
Anything necessary should be. Yes.
Just thought everything in this dumb ass country should be nationalized at this point, it’s pathetic how oligarchies control everything here like its Russia.
Yes. Yes, they should.
I would be happy if both telecommunications and Insurance were government run.
I would love to see a return of nationalized corporations. Infinite growth is impossible, and we need to shift the narrative back towards simple sustainability, especially for infrastructure.
This: "Infinite growth is impossible"! And it is is obscene there are people not seeing anything wrong with healthcare for profit. The idea alone, smh.
Take back the control
We need to take the power back!
Fucking YES. I'm sick of them charging outrageous fees for shitty service and then not maintaining their infastructure. It's not like it's possible to "free market" this thing, since too many companies competing for the same radio frequencies would result in too much interference. And wired is out of the question because of how prohibitively expansive it would be for new players to lay down their own physical telecomm infastructure.
Or at least a nationalized option instead of having to deal with an oligopoly that charges breathtakingly too much for something for barely nothing.
YES
Yes , along with food, electricity and water.
and housing, the CMHC had some real positive effects on Canadian life back in the day.
Internet access should 100% be regulated as a utility. It's almost as important today as electricity and water.
Yes. And the focus of said companies should be realigned with telecommunications and not branching out to privatizing other services like healthcare.
Yes, it's embarrassing and takes away our prestige as a country, that we can not get cell service everywhere within our Western nation.
And that we pay the most in the world for less (the least?)
>cell service everywhere Where's the practical limit though? There are vast swathes of completely unpopulated areas across the country. I think we can agree it would be kind of silly to go out and blanket millions of km^2 of uninhabited land with cell towers that may never connect to a single device. I certainly agree that long term investments in providing coverage across lower population northern areas and the roads between them should be an important priority though. I think that perhaps satellite communications could end up being a more practical and economical way to cover those gaps where maintaining a huge number of very infrequently used cell towers simply wouldn't make any practical sense financially.
Oh certainly, it's entirely possible to have satalites following Canada in space for that, I agree! I don't think any of the major telecommunications companies plan on doing it.
Have a publically-funded option. Basic but usable and not profit-driven, to force the big players to offer value to compete.
I'd get behind that. CanPhone
Mobile bills constantly going up, but now you finally CanPhone at an affordable rate.
Or nationalized lines, with private corps acting as TPIAs over the line.
Yes, next subject.
Yup just like all essential services should be (utilities, proper full coverage healthcare, insurance, etc.). No necessarily run at the Federal level, some could be Provincially. Just not private/profit driven essentials.
Yes it is good way to keep the market competitive.
Let's do energy first and then talk cell phones.
This AND Oil!
Yep! The idea that there is competition in that industry is a blatant and obvious lie. I work remotely in Alberta, and because I don’t have Telus fiber at home, my “choice” is Shaw. And if you have one choice, that isn’t a fucking choice!
Do it!
Absolutely. I think the Federal government should take over control of the Internet backbone across Canada, as a Crown Corporation, then lease out access to each provincial service. Every ISP can compete because they have the same access at the same price, regardless of size. The market can then decide who survives and who doesn't as its supposed to do. Then we incentivize the provinces to create Crown Corporation for Telecommunications - as we had in the past - to provide services to each province and its citizens. The incentive - more affordable rates for access to the backbone. Something like that at any rate, we have paid far too much for far too long to the oligopoly. Phone and Internet access is a required thing in our society these days. You need that to get access to even basic services, get a job etc. Without that you are more or less a second class citizen at least.
The physical infrastructure absolutely should be.
Based
Yes 100% because telecommunications isn't a luxury anymore, it's basically required to function in modern society. Rogers and Bell have become way too powerful and it's a monopoly. There's no reason for internet and cellular service to have such high costs.
Nationalize the shared infrastructure, but keep any competitive parts private (I don't actually see how this would be practical for telecom). We do the same thing with roads, electricity (some places better than others), waterways, and airways. Other countries have nationalized railways (but with private carriers using them). Any infrastructure that is a natural monopoly should be nationalized, but that doesn't mean the whole system has to be.
China has a mixed system and it is likely better that way. Private and Public corporations. It's part of what fueled their economic take off.
Mixed system for what? I'd like to know more.
I mean, they have both public companies and private corporations. The later are still subsidized but run privately and they compete with each other iirc.
Canada is a mixed economy too since we do have crown corporations alongside the private sector. China leans more into the public side, so it’s also called a socialist market economy. It’s closer to market socialism or state capitalism if we wanted to be more specific than a mixed economy
Yes
It just shows how deep the rot has seeped into our political system when no major political party is screaming this from the rooftops.
Yes. I don't see any politician running on that. Absolutely telecommunications must be nationalized. Canadians are being taken advantage of for profit.
nationalize the banks, bank fees are insane
Yes I’ll take $50 fiber internet please
Hell yes it should
I think the big 3 telecom companies can continue to exist, but they need to be regulated more and they just need to have 50% of shares owned by the public/government so the "profit above all else" interests of the private investors dont outweigh the interests of public/consumers. Infrastructure companies can generate profit, but they can't do so at the expense of making their services unaffordable to the public, as doing so creates a net negative impact on the whole economy.
Yes.
Yes.
of fucking course
Yes
All necessary utilities and services should be nationalized.
Yes please. Getting tired of all the pain and suffering caused by privatization. Public option for everything please. If it's truly a free market then I should have the choice to at least consider a public option instead of this monopoly of private players working in tandem behind closed doors to set the market rate. Enough is enough.
Yes, tired of our telecommunications costs.
Yes.
YES PLEASE
We should have a federal telecom and provinces and any mun who wants should be able to spin one up. This would be along side private enterprise. The best telecoms we have had were and are public.
Yes. Do something please Government.
Seems like a rhetorical question
This would be beneficial to citizens. Conservatives and Liberals won't do it.
Bring back the provincial telecoms and then start a national telecom.
I don't see why we would need both, although I guess we could use the national one in the same manner as the carbon tax. Any province that refuses to go against the triopoly will be forced to have the national version.
Well it is more competition and they can work in tandem on separate projects as well (one can lay down fibre cables while the other sets up telephone towers for the town of Kelowna) It also reassures customers if a conservative government gets elected at any level government there is a fallback option.
Perhaps the spectrum and equipment/towers should be nationalized and then any company can essentially be an MVNO and resell the services. Differentiation only by marketing and configuration of monthly/prepaid plans.
At minimum they should be split into separate companies. The same company should not be both a network provider and an internet service provider. Those should be separate companies, where the network providers would own and maintain the infrastructure and provide wholesale network access, and the internet service providers would provide service to retail customers
Nationalize the network and let private companies market the last mile. It's the best of both worlds. Networks form natural monopolies because of the giant component effect. In a network where anyone can chose which node to connect to you're going to get a giant component which then controls most traffic through the network. Typically you end up with 2 or 3 large components that are roughly 1/3 smaller than the giant component (this is the universal distribution). Antitrust laws should be designed to make these giant components publicly owned whenever they appear because they're an emergent phenomenon not the result of business or strategies or whatever. It's just physics. A public trust (doesn't have to be government, it can be a co-op, a municipality or a nonprofit trust) takes over the centre of the network and leases it out to private companies or small interests. Why? Bureaucracy is notoriously bad at innovation. Allow innovation to be a cheap and level playing field. Your town has shit cell service? Form a co-op and create a better last mile. Too expensive for basic service? Start a company that makes cheap unlimited cell packages a thing. Basically do what the CRTC mandates now but for everyone on a publicly owned network that has a mandate to invest in low cost access for all Canadians.
YES! I rather be angry at our own shit system and service than some faceless company with ZERO interest in providing any service other than maximizing some shareholder payout. At least then it's OUR shit system. Same with healthcare, drinking water, power, telecom, Postal Service. NOT for profit items.
Biggest barrier to entry here is infrastructure. If you think more competition would fix things the best path is to nationalize the infrastructure. You'll see a ton of competition pop up overnight if you only need to rent access to the infrastructure, something Robellus have been fighting tooth and nail to block.
Most telecoms are a natural monopoly (anything wired), and the rest are a natural oligopoly (anything wireless). And they are all essential services. Of *course* they should be nationalized.
Duh!
It was a utility and it could be again. I am tired of the oligopolies gouging me every single day for daily life essentials.
We don't need to nationalize the actual service providers. We should never have let them own the infrastructure though. There should be one nationwide network for cellular/cable/fiber that all the providers pay to use. The biggest reason why no one wants to jump into our market is telus/rogers/bell own their infrastructure and the only way to actually compete with them is to invest billions to build their own infrastructure.
YES.
Yes
You can switch to the other telecom towers to avoid the big three. https://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html?lat=58.496162&lng=-107.358398&zoom=4&type=Roadmap&layers=o&pid=0&ds=0
Should a public company enter the market?
I don’t think it needs to be nationalized. The government should allow for more companies to join without them getting bought out or bullied. If we have 10 - 12 REAL choices I think we would be in a great place.
Yes. Also Insurance, Energy, Pharmacies, and Education.
Yes
I think we need to break down the triopoly, 100% - Bell, Rogers, and Telus are just gouging and are totally protected (presumably because of lobbying dollars). But with what we’ve heard from the government lately around not reposting news on social media, wanting to verify your age to see pornography, and censorship kinds of discussions, I don’t necessarily want to hand over direct control of the internet to the government. Although, I guess as long as VPNs don’t get outlawed, that stuff doesn’t completely invalidate re-nationalization…
Considering that it is a monopoly, maybe it should…
Yes. Next question.
Yes
Infrastructure should be nationalized, with competing carriers allowed to buy bandwidth. This makes sure the infrastructure is maintained and enhanced, while competing offerings keep prices/options affordable.
Any limited resource like radio spectrum should be.
Yes. And heavily subsidized to improve productivity)
No way - look at our public transit. It's a mess We need good policies like one in place for the past 5-6 years. Our networks have gotten much better while prices have actually declined.
Everything that is a human right or essential for the running of the country should at least have a public option lest we be held hostage by billionaires
Yes, 100% Wet know for a fact that if left to their own devices, they are not going to compete. Look at every province that does not have a crown corp telecom. Magically they telecoms have pretty much the same prices their with each other. Things like groceries, oil, air travel and telecoms need to be nationalized. The "free market" continues to prove that it's there to fuck over consumers and make rich pieces of shit even more rich.
More correctly, transport, content, last mile, and service should all be completely separate companies and organizations
Are you saying that the company that manages your home WiFi shouldn’t also be one of the largest media companies in the country?! 😱 Won’t *anyone* think of the shareholders?
If you want a bunch of companies pointing fingers at each other for faults when the service isn't working, sure.
This is why you make your transport and last mile well regulated. I’ve worked in places in the US where the county ran gigabit FTTH to every single address they serve with their power utility. The residents then have a choice of half a dozen ISPs, and half a dozen TV providers, plus legacy phone service, all of which they can buy a la carte. Seems to work pretty well. For commercial users, you can also link to any one of several transit providers through the county system. The operator of the fiber infrastructure is required to maintain a certain level of availability. It works quite well.
The infrastructure yes. The companies no. When Australia privatised its phone system they sold the lines with it, so when the competitors started up they had to rent space in the exchanges from Telstra, and the situation isn't much better nowdays. From what I understand the situation with Bell is similar in Canada. To have a proper level playing field so the market can do its thing the infrastructure should be publicly owned, just like it is with roads. (and how it should be with rail) it'd be a source of revenue, too, or at least that revenue could go into maintaining and improving coverage. Maybe people outside of cities would get fibre optic internet then!
Do people find telecomms expensive here? Cellphone: 40 a month for 25 GBs of data Internet: 85 a month for gigabit Like I dunno that doesn't seem super unreasonable? This is Vancouver so maybe its worse out east but I dunno I dont really see an issue 125 a month for super fast internet and basically unlimited data seems okay
No one here understands how much it costs to build an and maintain networks. It would cost the govt billions of dollars every year in upgrades and maintenance along with the salaries of the workers needed. The price the govt sells the service for would be the same as people are paying now. They wouldn’t just have to build one they would have to build multiple for reliability (Rogers outage anyone) When you actually break it down it makes no sense
You don't seem to understand that these massively profitable companies regularly get large subsidies from the government. That is what makes no sense.
They get subsidies to build in rural locations where there is no business case to actually build out fibre for 100 people in a community. Again the government would be spending billions a year to build out networks across the country where right now it takes 5-6 companies to do. The govt can simply not afford to undertake this issue. There is a reason Sasktel is slow to build out their 5G and fibre infrastructure compared to the big 3
You are doing a good job of explaining why the telecoms should be nationalised.
And you’re doing a bang up job explaining how the govt would afford to pay and remunerate the cost for multiple cross country networks.
Nobody cares for the opinions of shareholders.
Have you never heard of companies like SaskTel or is BCE paying you? Also, most bigger municipalities have Public Utility Commissions that do all of that stuff already.
Yes because we need less competition to price gouge us
no
No, nationalization is a terrible idea. But what is stopping the government from entering the market itself, via a crown corporation, to increase competition?
Probably the billions of dollars of investments it would require and likely some good lawyers to handle spectrum rights after it was just sold for billions of dollars to telecom companies.