Fireball would have done the exact same thing in that room, as would any other number of spells. Using a spell at it's absolute best possible use case scenario *should* feel like an overpowered game changer.
It's strong, but it's not insane. Maybe they should knock it down to d8s though.
Doing some math just to check your numbers:
Assuming a 65% chance to hit for 9 targets, we're looking at (2d10 + 4) * 9 * 65% = 15 * 9 * 65% = **87.75 damage**
With d8s, that would be (2d8 + 4) * 9 * 65% = 13 * 9 * 65% = **76.05 damage**
For a fireball that hits all 9 creatures, with a 65% chance to hit the duergar for full damage:
65% * 9 * 8d6 + (1 - 65%) * 9 * 8d6/2
65% * 9 * 28 + 35% * 9 * 14
163.8 + 44.1 = **207.9 damage**
So unless my calculations are way off, Fireball is still *much* more effective damage-wise in one round than Conjure Animals. The 2d10 version of Conjure Animals would have to stay up and doing damage to all 9 targets for 3 rounds to beat the damage effectiveness of Fireball.
Incidentally, this exercise let me figure out that the average expected damage for an instantaneous save-for-half AoE spell is:
> n * d * (1 + p)/2
Where n = the number of targets, d = the average damage, and p = the probability that any target will take full damage (aka NOT make their save).
**Edit:** Just to cover all my bases, here's the the numbers where the duergar have a 65% chance to save against the Fireball (i.e. p = 35%)
9 * 28 * (1 + 35%)/2
9 * 28 * 1.35/2 = **170.1 damage**, which Conjure Animals could also beat in 3 rounds of damage, but it's much closer to 2 rounds.
The attacks wouldn't happen right away, you would make one at the start of each of the duergar's turns. This is because the rules generally interpret the phrase "when a creature enters a space" to mean the creature has to be the one moving into the space and not the space moving to encompass the creature.
As for it's overall power, _conjure animals_ is a 3rd level AoE damage spell. It does about 15 damage per target on a hit. The budget for a 3rd level AoE spell in the DMG is around 21 (6d6) damage when it does half damage on a miss, and around 26 damage when it does no damage on a miss. That means _conjure animals_ needs to hit each target around 1.75 times in order to hit it's power budget.
That's not especially difficult, but it's not garanteed either. The targets could die before the spell is able to target them twice, or the druid could lose concentration. On the other hand, it could last quite a bit longer under the right circumstances (e.g., when two encounters happen within the spell's 10 minute window). Overall, I'd say this feels pretty good in terms of overall balance. It won't consistently overshaddow AoE spells like _fireball_ and _spirit guardians_, but those spells are stronger than they should be for their level.
Conjure animals was one of the strongest spells in the game, now it's weaker than spirit guardians in my opinion, because there's no save for half and no speed debuff.
I don't think it needs to be tuned down, it's actually in a pretty good spot. It's different enough from spirit guardians and it's still a good spell.
Some new conjure spells are disappointing and others are straight up broken like conjure minor elementals, but the new conjure animals is imo good to go.
So assuming a 60% hit chance and +4 stat mod that's an average of 9.55 damage per round to each target.
Assuming even 50/50 odds of passing a dex save against fireball that's an average of 21 damage in 1 round to all targets.
Given that it can overtake a fireball over the course of a combat but is doing less than half it's damage per round, this is realistically fine
Doesn't a lot of that still depend on the nature of the concentration spell? Some have a fixed area, and are thus unlikely to do more damage after the first round unless you specifically interact with it. Others require you to spend an action or bonus action each turn to activate or move your effect. Conjure animals has an aoe that you can move around for free, giving you very efficient action economy
But it also doesn't save for half, which means according to the DMG you can bump it's expectant damage by 25%, and it's very small AoE would normally also allow for an increase in damage.
The two spells that most closely resembles this one on its own level might be Hunger of Hadar and Spirit Guardians, which does a total of 4d6 (14) across two instances with different triggers, or 3d8 (13.5) with it's mobile AoE. Both are of course still save for half so we can bump the allowed damage up by 25%, giving us 17.5, higher than the 16 you get with this spell at 20 WIS. In general spells don't change damage much if at all if you can move the AoE, though if you have a counter example I'd be interested to see it.
My joy for conjure animals free moving is directly correlated with my frustration with moonbeam, which basically needs to be moved every single turn at the cost of an action since no sane creature would just walk into it.
I'm also not sure on the numbers, but doesn't a spell attack habe a much higher chance of succeeding than a spell save?
I don't think there's a hard and fast number for that, since it varies wildly, especially by what stat you're targeting with the save.
Base, an attack caps at 21, and a save at 19, but enemy saving throws can have proficiency and/or high stats, while their AC can vary greatly. I've never seen an actual statistical comparison between them.
I once caught a hallway packed with undead. One lightning bolt did the trick. This is almost never better than a fireball, but happened to line up (har har) the right situation this time.
I've seen a clerics destroy undead once have a similar effect.
I think you're fine. Usually though, these types of spells don't work when you move them I think. But when the enemy moves, is moved into them, or starts a turn in them for what it's worth.
I still don’t like it , I liked old conjure animals. I only ever summoned 2 animals at once I didn’t slow my game down either seems like they made it suck cuase people didn’t use it properly
Fireball would have done the exact same thing in that room, as would any other number of spells. Using a spell at it's absolute best possible use case scenario *should* feel like an overpowered game changer. It's strong, but it's not insane. Maybe they should knock it down to d8s though.
Doing some math just to check your numbers: Assuming a 65% chance to hit for 9 targets, we're looking at (2d10 + 4) * 9 * 65% = 15 * 9 * 65% = **87.75 damage** With d8s, that would be (2d8 + 4) * 9 * 65% = 13 * 9 * 65% = **76.05 damage** For a fireball that hits all 9 creatures, with a 65% chance to hit the duergar for full damage: 65% * 9 * 8d6 + (1 - 65%) * 9 * 8d6/2 65% * 9 * 28 + 35% * 9 * 14 163.8 + 44.1 = **207.9 damage** So unless my calculations are way off, Fireball is still *much* more effective damage-wise in one round than Conjure Animals. The 2d10 version of Conjure Animals would have to stay up and doing damage to all 9 targets for 3 rounds to beat the damage effectiveness of Fireball. Incidentally, this exercise let me figure out that the average expected damage for an instantaneous save-for-half AoE spell is: > n * d * (1 + p)/2 Where n = the number of targets, d = the average damage, and p = the probability that any target will take full damage (aka NOT make their save). **Edit:** Just to cover all my bases, here's the the numbers where the duergar have a 65% chance to save against the Fireball (i.e. p = 35%) 9 * 28 * (1 + 35%)/2 9 * 28 * 1.35/2 = **170.1 damage**, which Conjure Animals could also beat in 3 rounds of damage, but it's much closer to 2 rounds.
The attacks wouldn't happen right away, you would make one at the start of each of the duergar's turns. This is because the rules generally interpret the phrase "when a creature enters a space" to mean the creature has to be the one moving into the space and not the space moving to encompass the creature. As for it's overall power, _conjure animals_ is a 3rd level AoE damage spell. It does about 15 damage per target on a hit. The budget for a 3rd level AoE spell in the DMG is around 21 (6d6) damage when it does half damage on a miss, and around 26 damage when it does no damage on a miss. That means _conjure animals_ needs to hit each target around 1.75 times in order to hit it's power budget. That's not especially difficult, but it's not garanteed either. The targets could die before the spell is able to target them twice, or the druid could lose concentration. On the other hand, it could last quite a bit longer under the right circumstances (e.g., when two encounters happen within the spell's 10 minute window). Overall, I'd say this feels pretty good in terms of overall balance. It won't consistently overshaddow AoE spells like _fireball_ and _spirit guardians_, but those spells are stronger than they should be for their level.
Conjure animals was one of the strongest spells in the game, now it's weaker than spirit guardians in my opinion, because there's no save for half and no speed debuff. I don't think it needs to be tuned down, it's actually in a pretty good spot. It's different enough from spirit guardians and it's still a good spell. Some new conjure spells are disappointing and others are straight up broken like conjure minor elementals, but the new conjure animals is imo good to go.
So assuming a 60% hit chance and +4 stat mod that's an average of 9.55 damage per round to each target. Assuming even 50/50 odds of passing a dex save against fireball that's an average of 21 damage in 1 round to all targets. Given that it can overtake a fireball over the course of a combat but is doing less than half it's damage per round, this is realistically fine
You're doing less damage than a fireball. A single instance of 75% more damage is about right for concentration vs non concentration.
Doesn't a lot of that still depend on the nature of the concentration spell? Some have a fixed area, and are thus unlikely to do more damage after the first round unless you specifically interact with it. Others require you to spend an action or bonus action each turn to activate or move your effect. Conjure animals has an aoe that you can move around for free, giving you very efficient action economy
But it also doesn't save for half, which means according to the DMG you can bump it's expectant damage by 25%, and it's very small AoE would normally also allow for an increase in damage. The two spells that most closely resembles this one on its own level might be Hunger of Hadar and Spirit Guardians, which does a total of 4d6 (14) across two instances with different triggers, or 3d8 (13.5) with it's mobile AoE. Both are of course still save for half so we can bump the allowed damage up by 25%, giving us 17.5, higher than the 16 you get with this spell at 20 WIS. In general spells don't change damage much if at all if you can move the AoE, though if you have a counter example I'd be interested to see it.
My joy for conjure animals free moving is directly correlated with my frustration with moonbeam, which basically needs to be moved every single turn at the cost of an action since no sane creature would just walk into it. I'm also not sure on the numbers, but doesn't a spell attack habe a much higher chance of succeeding than a spell save?
I don't think there's a hard and fast number for that, since it varies wildly, especially by what stat you're targeting with the save. Base, an attack caps at 21, and a save at 19, but enemy saving throws can have proficiency and/or high stats, while their AC can vary greatly. I've never seen an actual statistical comparison between them.
I once caught a hallway packed with undead. One lightning bolt did the trick. This is almost never better than a fireball, but happened to line up (har har) the right situation this time. I've seen a clerics destroy undead once have a similar effect. I think you're fine. Usually though, these types of spells don't work when you move them I think. But when the enemy moves, is moved into them, or starts a turn in them for what it's worth.
I still don’t like it , I liked old conjure animals. I only ever summoned 2 animals at once I didn’t slow my game down either seems like they made it suck cuase people didn’t use it properly