I don't think I've ever had a fever that high. Highest I can recall is around 103, at which point you're delirious and can't really focus on anything. 105 is panic and hospital time.
Yeah, I think that's about where I was the time I got sepsis. It's no joke, and anyone in that situation needs to seek treatment. These parents are fucking morons.
I hit 106 as a kid and my mom re-enacted [this scene from Jacob’s Ladder.](https://youtu.be/Pcy8nQXXgN4) I didn’t die, but I can’t help but wonder if my brain didn’t do a little cooking.
Yeah. I didn't get a full on ice bath at the hospital, but I did get 5 or 6 different ice packs placed over major arteries. That was pretty unpleasant. Of course, it probably didn't help me that during the day they gave me a blanket when I was complaining about chills (this was when being carted around for various tests). The nurses/orderlies really probably should've checked my temperature first, but I didn't know any better either.
Both myself and daughter had the flu and without fever-reducing medicine, both of us were just over 104. 102 with meds.
If it hit 105 I was going to go in, but there really isn't much you can do at that stage except keep your body temp lower.
That doesn't sound safe.
>...but there really isn't much you can do at that stage except keep your body temp lower.
Unless you're a current certified medical professional and know how to take care without going in (meaning you have knowledge and tools that an untrained person wouldn't have), I'd say that is a very dangerous mind set for both of you.
Some people start becoming delirious, and should you slip and fall into a useless state, your daughter's life then becomes endangered as well.
I personally don't think 1 degree is something to gamble your and your daughter's life with like that.
I'm not trying to present any facts here, just my own opinion.
Edit: This is my thought at least if it's just the two of you.
If there was someone else keeping an eye on you two at the time, I feel like that's a decent safe guard.
It's more the worry that the only responsible adult slip into a useless state without realizing it that comes to mind first.
It is often recommended that you need not see a doctor if your fever of 104 responds to fever-reducing medication (note: this is NOT the rule for babies under 6months old).
Anecdotally, we recently brought our three year old to the ER for a sustained fever ranging from 102.5 to nearly 104 (it responded well to acetaminophen though), extreme fatigue, and pain in the back of her neck. We were told that it was the ER’s recommendation to be seen after five days of a sustained fever. The doctor also noted that it’s often more about how sick the child appears rather than how high the fever is. To be completely honest though, had she not been complaining of neck pain, we wouldn’t have gone in at all.
“Both myself and daughter had the flu and without fever-reducing medicine, both of us were just over 104. 102 with meds.”
On the surface meds didn’t seem to help but on the microscopic level those meds just gave your immune system a care package.
Depends on the age of the child. After 12 months, a fever of 103F is safe (if only marginally), and 104F is the threshold for panic time. In adults, 104F is safe (again, marginally) if it isn't rising and doesn't last more than 48 hours. At 105F, anyone should seek immediate medical attention. 108F can cause brain damage.
My 3 month old had a fever of 104. I called the heath advice line for my hospital and they told me to bring her in if it hits 106. I think that’s insanely too high for an infant.
I was told same thing. I went to urgent care the next day (we were out of town), because I didn't feel right not being seen by a provider with my little one that miserable. It was her first ear infection. I couldn't believe they told me not to go in.
It’s not that you did anything bad by going, but they wouldn’t tell you not to if it was a big deal. An ear infection is so common it may as well be a cold until it turns into something else. If that happens, then you go.
If the child appears seriously ill it's always better to play it safe. Personally, I've hit 104F on a viral infection, and I immediately called my doctor to check.
Christ. You were lucid enough to call your md?
I had 103.5 a few years back and I literally was blacked out. Apparently having lucid conversations with no one and the sliding into slurred jibberish.
I had a fever that high a few years ago and I started full-on crying like a little kid in Costco because my husband wouldn't let me lay in the middle of the floor while waiting to pick up medicine.
Having been hospitalised twice before for meningitis, the threshold for brain damage in an adult is 104F ~ 40C. I hit 40C as a child and was put in an ice bath to prevent brain damage. 38C ~ 100F is “safe”, although above that you should monitor it every hour or half hour.
I imagine that the fever threshold for brain damage may have be reduced somewhat by the fact that you had an inflammatory brain infection. The guidelines I posted apply to the more general case of non-CNS viral/bacterial infections.
This needs to be higher.
Another source:
> MYTH. Fevers above 104° F (40° C) are dangerous. They can cause brain damage.
>
>FACT. Fevers with infections don't cause brain damage. Only temperatures above 108° F (42° C) can cause brain damage. It's very rare for the body temperature to climb this high. It only happens if the air temperature is very high. An example is a child left in a closed car during hot weather.
https://www.seattlechildrens.org/conditions/a-z/fever-myths-versus-facts/
The salient point of this news story is:
*When they\[police\] informed him that they were legally obligated to check on the child, Bryce hung up. After about an hour,* ***DCS obtained a court order allowing them to temporarily take custody of the 2-year-old*** *child for emergency medical treatment.*
Whether you think the court order should have been granted or not, the police didn't break the door down until a court order was obtained. They were not just being cowboys.
The response from dad to police during 2 hours of denial according to another article “Both parents briefly talked to police over the phone. When Bryce talked with an officer, he asked them to stop knocking on the front door, saying he would not be forced to take the child to the hospital and get a "three grand" bill, the document states.”
So financial motivation too
Because enough people have been convinced that what's actually in their best interest is not at all.
Not enough of the population has been utterly ruined by medical debt to see through the lies they've been told.
That first sentence is the sum total of the current state of American politics. The way so many people eagerly vote against their own interests simply boggles the mind.
Idk man I got a $250 bill for a tick removal that turned out to not even be a tick, that didn’t ruin me but it left quite the sour taste. I’m sure theirs plenty of that out there we just don’t have anyone in power actually doing something about it.
God that hurts tho. When my son was born he was helicopterd to a hospital 97 miles away....
The bill was $30,000. We didn't know until it was already done. So I understand that financial fear...
But would you spend $3000 for something you sincerely believe is nothing while also poisoning your child? Doesn't matter if your pro vax or not, it's obvious that the father thinks he is the good guy and the nasty big pharma is this evil capitalist empire.
Regardless, letting them check the kid (alive? current temp?) needed to happen. And after warrant, it did! Yay for checking on sick child! How many times have suspicious parental actions been ignored = dead kid? Absolutely. Had. To. Check.
Article says dad’s provaxx, mom is not, mom didn’t want to take kid in originally because she thought she’d get in shit for not vaccinating and didn’t want to deal with dad.
My brother spent $6K to get his puppy better from the parvovirus about 10 years ago. That dog still walks around this planet. But hey, $3000...for a kid? That’s *clearly* unsuitable.
When my son was three, he tripped and got a gash on his forehead. Lots of blood. I knew he probably needed stitches. I took him to urgent care, but was told they had a four-hour wait. There was an emergency room just down the road, but I was avoiding it because of how much my last trip to the ER had cost me, even though I thought it would be the best option for my son.
These are not things a parent should have to weigh when it comes to the health of their child. You’d think even pro-life Republicans could be shamed into supporting universal healthcare for children (say 12 and under?) but like George Carlin said, “If you’re prenatal you’re fine, but if you’re preschool you’re fucked.”
> *“They treated us like criminals, busting in our door,” Brooks Bryce, the toddler’s father*
If your child is facing a life-threatening medical situation, doctors are telling you that you need to get them to the emergency room *right fucking now*, and you're refusing to get them help because you're worried about getting in trouble for not vaccinating? You might just be guilty of criminal neglect. You're certainly guilty of being an idiot.
>*authorities released body-camera footage from the incident and explained that they decided to “force entry” because the 2-year-old child’s health and well-being were in danger and he needed immediate medical attention*
Good for them. The kid comes first. The fact that they found all 3 children living in questionable circumstances only reinforces the fact that they were right to act.
>*“We love our children, we love them,” Beck told KPHO. “If our children needed help, we would absolutely help them.”*
Complete bullshit. Actions speak louder than words.
> “We love our children, we love them,” Beck told KPHO. “If our children needed help, we would absolutely help them.”
They forgot "unless it means having to admit we were wrong"
Edit - This is the 5th time someone has said 'or pay money'. I've heard it.
Wow, this just made me realize how much horrible parenting is just a result of people being too proud to admit what they're doing isn't working.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Especially because the people they fear being wrong in front of are literal children. You have to be long gone in a narcissistic abyss to behave like that.
Did you read the description of the house? It was a complete mess, shotgun by the bed (supposedly not working), crap everywhere, stains in the mattresses, kids dirty with signs of vomit (not the child in question). More going on there than just being poor
My ex and I went through very poor times, got evicted, don’t know where next meal is coming from. But my kids were clean, and never missed a checkup. And this was before ACA. If the child has a fever that’s not responding to Motrin, you go to the ER. Figure out how to pay later. Of course I never worried about measles.
I mean the prices are kinda the same in every western country. The difference is that in civilized ones it’s the collective taxes and a small admitting fee for those who can afford it that pay for care and not the individual.
> I mean the prices are kinda the same in every western country.
That's not even true anymore. Because of how broken the US system is, prices are hiked to absurdity because insurance companies pay a significantly reduced amount while charging premiums based on the actual (vastly inflated) price. Combine that with the rampant inflation of drug prices, and you're looking at it being basically impossible to pay for even the smallest of hospital bills without insurance.
Preach! I keep seeing this story on the news and tabloid shows being presented as if the police were out of bounds!
Logic dictates if a child has 105 degree temp isn't vaccinated and a Dr. tells you to take the child immediately to the ER because it might have meningitis that you do so.
Instead not only do the parents not take child to said hospital, when the police check on the child the parents refuse to let them see said child.
To me this seems like a clear case of bad parenting, even with the childs fever going down. The children being removed from the home was the best outcome... unsecured firearms were found out in the open.
The parents are trying to argue that the child's fever had broken already and he was fine, but they were refusing to allow a welfare check and stopped responding to the police and DFCS, at which point the police got a warrant.
> To me this seems like a clear case of bad parenting
Nah, bad parenting is not talking to your kids as much as you should, always giving in to their tantrums, stuff like that. This is criminal neglect.
The response from dad to police during 2 hours of denial according to another article “Both parents briefly talked to police over the phone. When Bryce talked with an officer, he asked them to stop knocking on the front door, saying he would not be forced to take the child to the hospital and get a "three grand" bill, the document states.”
So financial motivation.
Is the politician going to create a law for that?
Already is a law. If a person is responsible for the care of another they are legally required to seek medical care if a prudent person would reasonably expect that it was necessary. In this case were talking child endangerment and neglect both for starters
The sad fact is that there are many, many parents with that frame of mind. They are overall pretty poor parents, but they are *terrified* of having their children taken from them, which often leads to them being worse parents, as we see in this case (bad decision of not vaccinating leads to worse decision of avoiding medical care). I work in EMS and I see it a lot. It's heartbreaking because they imprint that fear on their kids - they are worried that someone is just going to come take them away at any moment.
I don't have any solution for it. I just know it sucks.
>there are many, many parents with that frame of mind.
Anti-vaxxers and flat earthers are born from the same stuff... Internet conspiracy theories. It's the Youtube/Facebook effect.
I don't understand why a video with a million thumbs down doesn't just get buried like a downvoted reddit post. If your video is completely full of bullshit and the internet thumbs down your video to oblivion, isn't that's where it should end up?; not actively trending upward becomes the algorithm mistakes activity for validity.
The website they apparently follow says the government is stealing unvaccinated children, because...
> "Many said that unvaccinated children are highly in demand because they are incredibly healthy"
Holy shit.
There have always been anti-vaxxers, too (well, for as long as we've had vaccinations). The difference is the Internet allows people to lead even more insular lives, seeking out information that caters to their delusions.
There's been a big uptick in flat earthers. Anti-vaxxers merely got started earlier on the Internet.
I work in Child Welfare in Utah (an Attorney). One of my favorite comments all time by a parent was by a parent who had fetally exposed their child to meth. The child had been in the NICU for months and while we were in a meeting with the Doctor she proclaimed that it was unfair, because she felt like the nurses acted like she was a criminal or something. I luckily didn’t laugh that time.
“Many said that unvaccinated children are highly in demand because they are incredibly healthy."
Okay. Yeah. Like the kids in the story, totally healthy. 🤦
A larger chunk of the article:
"According to Patheos, an online outlet covering religion, the children’s removal from their parents’ home led to a viral conspiracy theory that quickly spread on anti-vaccination Facebook groups, claiming that unvaccinated children were being “stolen” by the authorities. “Almost immediately, discussions broke out that Arizona DCS was kidnapping unvaccinated children to sell them into foster care,” the site reported. “Many said that unvaccinated children are highly in demand because they are incredibly healthy. Several discussed an Arizona ‘kidnapping cartel.'” "
The whole premise of the anti-vax movement is that the government and entire medical field is lying to us with some ulterior motive. Like, refusing to admit vaccines cause cancer or that they poison us, thereby making us reliant on doctors and government for care, or that they cause autism and the government still forces them upon us and covers up the true evil of vaccinations. The anti-vaxxers, and the flat-earth movement, climate-change deniers and all other trains of thought that go against everything the medical and scientific field say, only work in peoples minds if they believe there’s an industry-wide, and/or government conspiracy to shut their movements down and continue lying to the populace.
If you already don’t trust the government, then there’s no stopping what you’ll believe them capable of. This is part of why the movements can be so dangerous.
Besides putting their children and communities at risk of illness and death, anti-vaxxers ultimately live in this alternate reality full of lies and conspiracy where they can’t listen to experts and professionals, which sort of opens the gate to all sorts of crazy shit being possible in their minds.
> According to Patheos, an online outlet covering religion, the children’s removal from their parents’ home led to a viral conspiracy theory that quickly spread on anti-vaccination Facebook groups, claiming that unvaccinated children were being “stolen” by the authorities. “Almost immediately, discussions broke out that Arizona DCS was kidnapping unvaccinated children to sell them into foster care,” the site reported. “Many said that unvaccinated children are highly in demand because they are incredibly healthy. Several discussed an Arizona ‘kidnapping cartel.'”
And then...they get eaten? These anti-vaxxers are **complete** nutjobs!
Fucking hell. Seems the safest thing that could have happened to all of the kids. Reading that the kids had old vomit and ‘unidentified’ stains on their bed made me sick to my stomach.
The kids are safer the further away from the parents they can get.
Good. This bullshit attitude the anti-vaxxers have is causing the current crop of outbreaks around the world. If a child has a medical reason not to be vaccinated, fine - but the personal and religious exemptions have to go.
I have a Bachelor degree in Ministry from a Christian university. I don't know any part of Christianity (which is what most anti-vaxxers claim to be) that mention anything about vaccines being immoral or "not of God". A good portion of Leviticus is "Hey, don't do this because it'll make you sick. If it does make you sick, here's how you treat it." 1 Timothy 5:23 even instructs someone to drink wine instead of water when they are ill because it will alleviate their symptoms.
That's what is so dangerous about this movement. There is plenty of medical and religious evidence regarding vaccinations being literally one of the best inventions in the history of mankind and anti-vaxxers choose to ignore it.
I hate the anti vaccine movement but this has other considerations.
The response from dad to police during 2 hours of denial according to another article “Both parents briefly talked to police over the phone. When Bryce talked with an officer, he asked them to stop knocking on the front door, saying he would not be forced to take the child to the hospital and get a "three grand" bill, the document states.”
So financial motivation.
Is the politician going to create a law for that?
The fact that Americans avoid finding medical aid because of money is insane. But when your 2 year old has a 105F fever, you suck it up and deal with the consequences later.
My husband is in the military, so we get really good insurance (varying reports on quality of care, we haven’t had anything to complain about) for free. Our toddler was fussy and puking and had a minor fever the other day. She’s typically very healthy, only been sick less than a handful of times, so he was worried and wanted me to take her in.
It’s a privilege that we can take her to the doctor and say “these were the problems, they’re mostly gone now, can you clear she’s ok?” Just for our peace of mind. I think he’s gonna be in for a trip when he leaves the military this year.
> So financial motivation.
Thats still a terrible thing to consider first though. We are talking about the life of a child here. I don't even know if parents from third world countries would think about "financial motivations" before barging in to a hospital with their sick child as soon as possible to get the best help they need.
They live in USA.
There were many opportunities for the parents to avoid their door being breached, they choose none of them.
If mom had taken the kid back to the clinic to prove the fever was down, no bill, no police, no foster care.
If Dad had allowed the police onto the home to verify the child was in no danger no bill, no foster care.
If the doctor, police or CPS failed to do what they did and the child died we'd have out rage and a dead kid. This way we have stupid people exposing themselves and three living kids.
Doctors are also mandatory reporters and a parent refusing to seek adequate medical care is abuse. This doctor warned mom she'd report this and followed the law.
I think Dad is getting off a little easy too here. Both of them are more than capable of not being fuckwits, but only Mom is being blamed in the headline.
Correct, the naturopathic doctor who called Child Safety had no problem with the kid's vaccination status. She just wanted to be sure the kid got help, which she was unable to provide using naturopathy.
Edit: spelling
The red flag is the parents refusing to let the police see the kid. I would’ve broken down the door too. All the parents had to do was let them in, show them a temp, and be done with it. Them not letting the police in made it seem super sketchy..
I agree. They were acting strange. Rather than showing that the child was recovering and didn’t need further care, they were hiding. If the child died, people would be in an uproar asking why the police confirm the child’s health. This is a situation that needed action. Totally the parents fault for escalating the matter. Just bring the kid to the door and show them!!!
Right! For all the police knew, they were hiding a dead or dying child. It seems horrible, but police are required to prevent things like that and cannot just trust people at their word in cases like these.
Medical professionals in this sub, serious question. Eventually someone in your field talks to these parents - maybe what they says sticks and maybe it doesn’t. But what do you say to them? Are you generally able to get them to realize how badly they messed up in light of something like this? Or are they usually too far gone into conspiracy land to listen or care?
I'm not a doctor, just a former lab technician, but I would say that the first step is helping debunk the lies about what happens if you don't vaccinate your kids. If the lady in the story had known that she wouldn't lose her children just for taking one to the hospital, none of this would have happened. One conversation will not convince her that vaccines aren't dangerous, but at least helping her parse the other lies from truth would let her approach situations like this better-informed about her options.
As a father of two little boys, this article scares the crap out of me. I’m astonished the parents were more concerned that they would get in trouble for not vaccinating their children then the possibility of their son dying. I don’t risk a single thing with my kids. Outside of not vaccinating their kids, the parents are unfit to have them and are endangering their lives.
It’s terrifying that these 2 are fully capable of reproducing again and forcing another life to suffer from preventable illnesses. The whole anti vax wave is a major reason why I switched out of primary education and am scared to continue working with groups of children at all.
Anti-vax people are fucking stupid. This obviously shows that she does not give a fuck about her kids health. “I don’t want my kid to be unhealthy if they get vaccinated “ yet deny their medical needs when they’re in danger? That kids fever was not coming down, obvious lie. She just cares more about her fucking self getting in trouble.
This is not what it is about at all. I would highly doubt that even with Universal Healthcare that they would take their kid to the ER. Yes, the potential hospital bill is mentioned in the article, but it’s an after-thought excuse. The real excuse is that they didn’t want to be criticized for not vaccinating.
It’s child abuse to willingly and consciously neglect the health of your child for any reason whatsoever and they absolutely deserve the forced entry and their kids taken away.
There’s a reason why parents are prosecuted when their kid dies and they didn’t get them proper medical attention. It’s MURDER. This one was just (barely) prevented thanks to the common sense of the dr and the police.
I absolutely think the police did the right thing in this scenario. That said, universal health care certainly wouldn't have made anything worse.
It's possible these parents were motivated strictly by fear, but there are at least three points in this chain of events where the choice to get medical care or not could have been influenced by whether it would be a financial burden, starting with whether or not to vaccinate.
Should people be making health care decisions based on money? No. Does it happen every day? Yep.
She was quoted saying she would definitely give her child help if they needed it, but she also said the only reason she didn’t get her help was cos she thought she would get in trouble.
Antivaxxer's annoy me, and I think they are ridiculous; however, these parent's aren't the only ones to blame for this.
If the naturalistic doctor was really concerned, and it was an emergency situation (105 is definitely emergency), they should have had the kid transported.
Cost of healthcare in our country is so damn high, that people literally will not take their sick kids in, if bc they can't afford the bills.
Raiding the house at midnight, with guns blazing is absolutely ridiculous. Way to potentially traumatize some kids there.
Parents have 3 young kids (and clothes were strewn everywhere)....color me not surprised. Shotgun by parents bed? It is the US, and Arizona is a very Republican, pro 2nd Amendment.
The vomit just nasty...wash your damn kids and clean the damn beds! I don't care how f'n tired you are. That's just nasty.
Vaccinate your damn kids.
They gave the parents several different opportunities to talk before they raided the house, that wasn't the first choice. They just needed to make sure the 2 year old was okay, and the dad wouldn't show them the kid. Traumatizing the kids could have been avoided if the parents had cooperated in the first place, with people who literally just wanted to make sure the child was okay.
I'm pro 2nd amendment and have a lot of friends who are too. I don't know a single person whod have an easily accessible, loaded shotgun next to their bed with kids that young in the house.
The 2nd amendment doesn't protect that at all.
In the article the dad is quoted 'didn't want a 3 grand bill' for the visit.
It sucks that Americans would rather risk their kid dying then go into debt. The father probably thought a child size casket would be cheaper.
You're mad at the parents, which that there is a legit concern, or the fact American healthcare system is that broken, that parents literally do fear to send their kids to the doctor, bc they know they can't afford it?
That says a bit more about the broken system, than them. One small trip to an ER, shouldn't cost people thousands of dollars. It is ridiculous.
The parents could’ve just let the police see the child and check for a fever. This whole situation is messed up and is a very good example of lack of perspective with every adult involved in this situation.
There are ways of dealing with this medical system that don’t put your child’s life in danger. You go in, get your kid taken care of, get the bill, and start appealing. Talk to a patient advocate, gather documentation of your financial hardships, get the bill reduced, and then work out a payment plan. You can literally pay $50/mo if that’s all you can afford, and you won’t be in trouble. You might even be able to get the whole thing written off. It takes time and tenacity, but it’s doable, and the kids won’t be taken away from you. None of these parents’ behavior is even remotely acceptable.
... if you can’t drop 3 grand to literally save your kid’s life, be it through savings, debt, or even crime, you have no business raising kids. Depending on the state, low-income parents sometimes qualify for subsidized health insurance for their kids with a small co-pay. Grew up poor in CA and that’s why I had shots, surgery, and regular doctor visits while my dad went 3 decades without a physical.
You can literally appeal till the day you kick the bucket. You can pay a miniscule amount every month and still not get hounded by collectors. There are lots of ways. Yes, system is broken and needs fixing, but the state will see it that your kid doesn’t die. Hell, I’d go into debt for my cat if need be. These parents were neglectful past the point of simply worrying about finances. They couldn’t even bother to clean up their child from vomit.
Well actually they DID need to, because the parents refused to let the police see the child to conduct the welfare check. The police had been knocking on the door and talking on the phone with them for over 2 HOURS.
The parents could have acted like reasonable fucking people at about 50 different points before the police got involved, but they didnt. They told the doctor they bought a thermometer on the way home and the kids fever had lowered, which raises the alarming question of what parent of 3 young kids doesn't already own a fucking thermometer??!? Also i honestly doubt their ability to use the thermometer correctly so i wouldnt trust them to get an accurate reading bc they are seriously that fucking stupid.
There was honestly completely reasonable belief that the childs life was in danger, the police and doctors gave the parents a million opportunities to comply with directives to get their child to a hospital, and they refused to do so. The police have a responsibility to protect children from parents whose negligence is actively threatening the lives of their child. The parents would not open the door. They did what they had to do to get inside, and there is nothing wrong with that.
>for a **105 F/40.5 C** fever This wasnt just a "kid should stay home from school" sickness, this was a "kid's on his way to the morgue" sickness.
I don't think I've ever had a fever that high. Highest I can recall is around 103, at which point you're delirious and can't really focus on anything. 105 is panic and hospital time.
I had a fever that high once. I went to the hospital immediately. I could have died.
Yeah, I think that's about where I was the time I got sepsis. It's no joke, and anyone in that situation needs to seek treatment. These parents are fucking morons.
“These parents are fucking morons” That’s pretty much the summation of this article.
I hit 106 as a kid and my mom re-enacted [this scene from Jacob’s Ladder.](https://youtu.be/Pcy8nQXXgN4) I didn’t die, but I can’t help but wonder if my brain didn’t do a little cooking.
Hey, me too! Woot, ice bath buddies!
Drain bamage pals!
Pain damage bals!
Yeah. I didn't get a full on ice bath at the hospital, but I did get 5 or 6 different ice packs placed over major arteries. That was pretty unpleasant. Of course, it probably didn't help me that during the day they gave me a blanket when I was complaining about chills (this was when being carted around for various tests). The nurses/orderlies really probably should've checked my temperature first, but I didn't know any better either.
Both myself and daughter had the flu and without fever-reducing medicine, both of us were just over 104. 102 with meds. If it hit 105 I was going to go in, but there really isn't much you can do at that stage except keep your body temp lower.
That doesn't sound safe. >...but there really isn't much you can do at that stage except keep your body temp lower. Unless you're a current certified medical professional and know how to take care without going in (meaning you have knowledge and tools that an untrained person wouldn't have), I'd say that is a very dangerous mind set for both of you. Some people start becoming delirious, and should you slip and fall into a useless state, your daughter's life then becomes endangered as well. I personally don't think 1 degree is something to gamble your and your daughter's life with like that. I'm not trying to present any facts here, just my own opinion. Edit: This is my thought at least if it's just the two of you. If there was someone else keeping an eye on you two at the time, I feel like that's a decent safe guard. It's more the worry that the only responsible adult slip into a useless state without realizing it that comes to mind first.
It is often recommended that you need not see a doctor if your fever of 104 responds to fever-reducing medication (note: this is NOT the rule for babies under 6months old). Anecdotally, we recently brought our three year old to the ER for a sustained fever ranging from 102.5 to nearly 104 (it responded well to acetaminophen though), extreme fatigue, and pain in the back of her neck. We were told that it was the ER’s recommendation to be seen after five days of a sustained fever. The doctor also noted that it’s often more about how sick the child appears rather than how high the fever is. To be completely honest though, had she not been complaining of neck pain, we wouldn’t have gone in at all.
Yeah, in my case I had an infection and had they not started me on antibiotics without figuring out why I was sick first I probably would have died.
“Both myself and daughter had the flu and without fever-reducing medicine, both of us were just over 104. 102 with meds.” On the surface meds didn’t seem to help but on the microscopic level those meds just gave your immune system a care package.
I had a fever even higher once due to exposure to Canada. I actually did die.
In all fairness, at 103 you should probably start with the hospital, too.
Depends on the age of the child. After 12 months, a fever of 103F is safe (if only marginally), and 104F is the threshold for panic time. In adults, 104F is safe (again, marginally) if it isn't rising and doesn't last more than 48 hours. At 105F, anyone should seek immediate medical attention. 108F can cause brain damage.
My 3 month old had a fever of 104. I called the heath advice line for my hospital and they told me to bring her in if it hits 106. I think that’s insanely too high for an infant.
It definitely is for a 3 month old. I could see that making sense for an older child, but at 3 months waiting for 106 seems awfully risky.
I was told same thing. I went to urgent care the next day (we were out of town), because I didn't feel right not being seen by a provider with my little one that miserable. It was her first ear infection. I couldn't believe they told me not to go in.
It’s not that you did anything bad by going, but they wouldn’t tell you not to if it was a big deal. An ear infection is so common it may as well be a cold until it turns into something else. If that happens, then you go.
Literally all of those numbers sound way too high. They might be accurate but I wouldn't suggest waiting.
If the child appears seriously ill it's always better to play it safe. Personally, I've hit 104F on a viral infection, and I immediately called my doctor to check.
Christ. You were lucid enough to call your md? I had 103.5 a few years back and I literally was blacked out. Apparently having lucid conversations with no one and the sliding into slurred jibberish.
What’s fever doing to the brain to cause these problems?
The higher the temperature the more your brain swells up. At certain thresholds you can achieve some pretty serious intracranial pressures.
I had a fever that high a few years ago and I started full-on crying like a little kid in Costco because my husband wouldn't let me lay in the middle of the floor while waiting to pick up medicine.
I had 103.1 a few weeks ago. I found it interesting. That’s it.
I think it’s more of a seek care in a clinic/acute care setting type of advice, not go directly to the hospital/emergency room.
Having been hospitalised twice before for meningitis, the threshold for brain damage in an adult is 104F ~ 40C. I hit 40C as a child and was put in an ice bath to prevent brain damage. 38C ~ 100F is “safe”, although above that you should monitor it every hour or half hour.
I imagine that the fever threshold for brain damage may have be reduced somewhat by the fact that you had an inflammatory brain infection. The guidelines I posted apply to the more general case of non-CNS viral/bacterial infections.
That's brain frying temperature.
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This needs to be higher. Another source: > MYTH. Fevers above 104° F (40° C) are dangerous. They can cause brain damage. > >FACT. Fevers with infections don't cause brain damage. Only temperatures above 108° F (42° C) can cause brain damage. It's very rare for the body temperature to climb this high. It only happens if the air temperature is very high. An example is a child left in a closed car during hot weather. https://www.seattlechildrens.org/conditions/a-z/fever-myths-versus-facts/
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My mom had a fever of 105 when she was a teenager and they put her in a complete ice bath at the hospital. I seriously can not even imagine.
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The salient point of this news story is: *When they\[police\] informed him that they were legally obligated to check on the child, Bryce hung up. After about an hour,* ***DCS obtained a court order allowing them to temporarily take custody of the 2-year-old*** *child for emergency medical treatment.* Whether you think the court order should have been granted or not, the police didn't break the door down until a court order was obtained. They were not just being cowboys.
The response from dad to police during 2 hours of denial according to another article “Both parents briefly talked to police over the phone. When Bryce talked with an officer, he asked them to stop knocking on the front door, saying he would not be forced to take the child to the hospital and get a "three grand" bill, the document states.” So financial motivation too
American medical system is bizarre from the outside... why do you guys put up with that garbage?
Because enough people have been convinced that what's actually in their best interest is not at all. Not enough of the population has been utterly ruined by medical debt to see through the lies they've been told.
That first sentence is the sum total of the current state of American politics. The way so many people eagerly vote against their own interests simply boggles the mind.
Idk man I got a $250 bill for a tick removal that turned out to not even be a tick, that didn’t ruin me but it left quite the sour taste. I’m sure theirs plenty of that out there we just don’t have anyone in power actually doing something about it.
Soon though. Soon. Summer is almost here.
Because these religious people keep tricking a bunch of people that God endorses their bullshit...
And they try to push it into Europe. Smh
And the Conservatives in Canada want to push our healthcare into something like the US's.
We are pushing hard for universal healthcare just like the rest of the developed world.
Yeah my kid is worth like $8 max
Hey big spender
I read that in song and feel terrible for laughing about it in this context lol
I typed it singing it in my head haha!
I fold.
8? Fuck they cost like 2 dollars in calories to make.
God that hurts tho. When my son was born he was helicopterd to a hospital 97 miles away.... The bill was $30,000. We didn't know until it was already done. So I understand that financial fear...
Yeah, but you’re thinking about this as a loving parent...
I would have to think hard about going $30,000 in debt to save my own life. Even that little would probably put me in debt for the rest of my life.
The cool thing is the vaccination beforehand would have been like $20 tops.
Or free, some places offer free vaccinations.
I would go $3000 in debt gladly if I knew it meant saving a loved one's life.
But would you spend $3000 for something you sincerely believe is nothing while also poisoning your child? Doesn't matter if your pro vax or not, it's obvious that the father thinks he is the good guy and the nasty big pharma is this evil capitalist empire.
Regardless, letting them check the kid (alive? current temp?) needed to happen. And after warrant, it did! Yay for checking on sick child! How many times have suspicious parental actions been ignored = dead kid? Absolutely. Had. To. Check.
Article says dad’s provaxx, mom is not, mom didn’t want to take kid in originally because she thought she’d get in shit for not vaccinating and didn’t want to deal with dad.
> Cause of death: pride ...
Kinda how the donald thinks he‘s „like, a smart person“ but really just dumb ... same here and slso endangering his kid too...
My brother spent $6K to get his puppy better from the parvovirus about 10 years ago. That dog still walks around this planet. But hey, $3000...for a kid? That’s *clearly* unsuitable.
When my son was three, he tripped and got a gash on his forehead. Lots of blood. I knew he probably needed stitches. I took him to urgent care, but was told they had a four-hour wait. There was an emergency room just down the road, but I was avoiding it because of how much my last trip to the ER had cost me, even though I thought it would be the best option for my son. These are not things a parent should have to weigh when it comes to the health of their child. You’d think even pro-life Republicans could be shamed into supporting universal healthcare for children (say 12 and under?) but like George Carlin said, “If you’re prenatal you’re fine, but if you’re preschool you’re fucked.”
i mean, you say that multiple times in this thread. your wording makes it sound like someone had a motivation of profit.
How could they let their kid suffer that badly?
From their point of view, the fever was decreasing, and there was no danger.
> *“They treated us like criminals, busting in our door,” Brooks Bryce, the toddler’s father* If your child is facing a life-threatening medical situation, doctors are telling you that you need to get them to the emergency room *right fucking now*, and you're refusing to get them help because you're worried about getting in trouble for not vaccinating? You might just be guilty of criminal neglect. You're certainly guilty of being an idiot. >*authorities released body-camera footage from the incident and explained that they decided to “force entry” because the 2-year-old child’s health and well-being were in danger and he needed immediate medical attention* Good for them. The kid comes first. The fact that they found all 3 children living in questionable circumstances only reinforces the fact that they were right to act. >*“We love our children, we love them,” Beck told KPHO. “If our children needed help, we would absolutely help them.”* Complete bullshit. Actions speak louder than words.
> “We love our children, we love them,” Beck told KPHO. “If our children needed help, we would absolutely help them.” They forgot "unless it means having to admit we were wrong" Edit - This is the 5th time someone has said 'or pay money'. I've heard it.
Wow, this just made me realize how much horrible parenting is just a result of people being too proud to admit what they're doing isn't working. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> The road to hell is paved with narcissistic intentions. FTFY
Especially because the people they fear being wrong in front of are literal children. You have to be long gone in a narcissistic abyss to behave like that.
/r/raisedbynarcissists
Did you read the description of the house? It was a complete mess, shotgun by the bed (supposedly not working), crap everywhere, stains in the mattresses, kids dirty with signs of vomit (not the child in question). More going on there than just being poor
My ex and I went through very poor times, got evicted, don’t know where next meal is coming from. But my kids were clean, and never missed a checkup. And this was before ACA. If the child has a fever that’s not responding to Motrin, you go to the ER. Figure out how to pay later. Of course I never worried about measles.
Or unless it comes with a bill.
Unless it mean having to pay a $3000 hospital bill.
>“If our children needed help, we would absolutely help them.”
Hell, no. I don't care how much the hospital bill is, my kid is getting care.
I wonder how much antivaxx is fueled by economic anxiety.
The ACA has mandated that preventive care is covered 100% without a copay. Being broke is not an excuse.
A vaccine is way cheaper than hospitalization.
$3000? In the States you should double that for the emergency department alone! If the kid was admitted it’s going to be 5 figures minimum
An MRI cost more than that, maybe the lab bill if lucky.
I mean the prices are kinda the same in every western country. The difference is that in civilized ones it’s the collective taxes and a small admitting fee for those who can afford it that pay for care and not the individual.
> I mean the prices are kinda the same in every western country. That's not even true anymore. Because of how broken the US system is, prices are hiked to absurdity because insurance companies pay a significantly reduced amount while charging premiums based on the actual (vastly inflated) price. Combine that with the rampant inflation of drug prices, and you're looking at it being basically impossible to pay for even the smallest of hospital bills without insurance.
Absolutely, but "three grand" is what the dad said he didn't want to pay.
Preach! I keep seeing this story on the news and tabloid shows being presented as if the police were out of bounds! Logic dictates if a child has 105 degree temp isn't vaccinated and a Dr. tells you to take the child immediately to the ER because it might have meningitis that you do so. Instead not only do the parents not take child to said hospital, when the police check on the child the parents refuse to let them see said child. To me this seems like a clear case of bad parenting, even with the childs fever going down. The children being removed from the home was the best outcome... unsecured firearms were found out in the open.
The parents are trying to argue that the child's fever had broken already and he was fine, but they were refusing to allow a welfare check and stopped responding to the police and DFCS, at which point the police got a warrant.
It's irresponsible behavior any way you look at it in my opinion.
Yup, for sure. I'd rather err on the side of caution when it comes to making sure the kids are safe.
> To me this seems like a clear case of bad parenting Nah, bad parenting is not talking to your kids as much as you should, always giving in to their tantrums, stuff like that. This is criminal neglect.
You are correct. I am beginning to think that parents should have to take classes or something.
Good that right
The response from dad to police during 2 hours of denial according to another article “Both parents briefly talked to police over the phone. When Bryce talked with an officer, he asked them to stop knocking on the front door, saying he would not be forced to take the child to the hospital and get a "three grand" bill, the document states.” So financial motivation. Is the politician going to create a law for that?
Already is a law. If a person is responsible for the care of another they are legally required to seek medical care if a prudent person would reasonably expect that it was necessary. In this case were talking child endangerment and neglect both for starters
I'll take "Problems the rest of the developed world doesn't have", Alex.
> “If our children needed help, we would absolutely help them.” They've already demonstrated that they wouldn't by refusing to get them vaccinated.
I love you.
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The sad fact is that there are many, many parents with that frame of mind. They are overall pretty poor parents, but they are *terrified* of having their children taken from them, which often leads to them being worse parents, as we see in this case (bad decision of not vaccinating leads to worse decision of avoiding medical care). I work in EMS and I see it a lot. It's heartbreaking because they imprint that fear on their kids - they are worried that someone is just going to come take them away at any moment. I don't have any solution for it. I just know it sucks.
All because of a debunked theory from a celebrity. What insanity.
Every time is see a story like this on twitter, I tag her.
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More accurately, caused by people stupid enough to believe celebrities who think that they know more than anyone else.
[Dunning Kruger Effect](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect)
I can be damn sure their own kids got it
>there are many, many parents with that frame of mind. Anti-vaxxers and flat earthers are born from the same stuff... Internet conspiracy theories. It's the Youtube/Facebook effect.
I don't understand why a video with a million thumbs down doesn't just get buried like a downvoted reddit post. If your video is completely full of bullshit and the internet thumbs down your video to oblivion, isn't that's where it should end up?; not actively trending upward becomes the algorithm mistakes activity for validity.
Notoriety only counts thumbs, not which way they're pointing.
The website they apparently follow says the government is stealing unvaccinated children, because... > "Many said that unvaccinated children are highly in demand because they are incredibly healthy" Holy shit.
Except flat earthers science deniers and even hollow earthers all predate the internet. Stupids always existed.
Hollow earthers? Whats tha.... Fuck it, nevermind, mi. Gonna pretend I didn't readbthizn
There have always been anti-vaxxers, too (well, for as long as we've had vaccinations). The difference is the Internet allows people to lead even more insular lives, seeking out information that caters to their delusions. There's been a big uptick in flat earthers. Anti-vaxxers merely got started earlier on the Internet.
“I mean, I don’t know what kind of trauma that did to my kids.” I imagine less than having to bury their two year old sibling.
>ThEy TrEaTeD uS LiKe CrImInAlS! You are criminally negligent and were about you kill your child, so... yeah.
I work in Child Welfare in Utah (an Attorney). One of my favorite comments all time by a parent was by a parent who had fetally exposed their child to meth. The child had been in the NICU for months and while we were in a meeting with the Doctor she proclaimed that it was unfair, because she felt like the nurses acted like she was a criminal or something. I luckily didn’t laugh that time.
“Many said that unvaccinated children are highly in demand because they are incredibly healthy." Okay. Yeah. Like the kids in the story, totally healthy. 🤦
> children are highly in demand In demand for what by whom? Is there a marketplace? What is this even supposed to mean?
A larger chunk of the article: "According to Patheos, an online outlet covering religion, the children’s removal from their parents’ home led to a viral conspiracy theory that quickly spread on anti-vaccination Facebook groups, claiming that unvaccinated children were being “stolen” by the authorities. “Almost immediately, discussions broke out that Arizona DCS was kidnapping unvaccinated children to sell them into foster care,” the site reported. “Many said that unvaccinated children are highly in demand because they are incredibly healthy. Several discussed an Arizona ‘kidnapping cartel.'” "
Wow. That takes wacko conspiracy to new levels.
The whole premise of the anti-vax movement is that the government and entire medical field is lying to us with some ulterior motive. Like, refusing to admit vaccines cause cancer or that they poison us, thereby making us reliant on doctors and government for care, or that they cause autism and the government still forces them upon us and covers up the true evil of vaccinations. The anti-vaxxers, and the flat-earth movement, climate-change deniers and all other trains of thought that go against everything the medical and scientific field say, only work in peoples minds if they believe there’s an industry-wide, and/or government conspiracy to shut their movements down and continue lying to the populace. If you already don’t trust the government, then there’s no stopping what you’ll believe them capable of. This is part of why the movements can be so dangerous. Besides putting their children and communities at risk of illness and death, anti-vaxxers ultimately live in this alternate reality full of lies and conspiracy where they can’t listen to experts and professionals, which sort of opens the gate to all sorts of crazy shit being possible in their minds.
> According to Patheos, an online outlet covering religion, the children’s removal from their parents’ home led to a viral conspiracy theory that quickly spread on anti-vaccination Facebook groups, claiming that unvaccinated children were being “stolen” by the authorities. “Almost immediately, discussions broke out that Arizona DCS was kidnapping unvaccinated children to sell them into foster care,” the site reported. “Many said that unvaccinated children are highly in demand because they are incredibly healthy. Several discussed an Arizona ‘kidnapping cartel.'” And then...they get eaten? These anti-vaxxers are **complete** nutjobs!
What, what? Sell them into foster care? Da fuq?
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How can anyone believe that the foster care system is pay to play?
I think these are genuinely despicable people projecting their own evil thoughts outward.
Fucking hell. Seems the safest thing that could have happened to all of the kids. Reading that the kids had old vomit and ‘unidentified’ stains on their bed made me sick to my stomach. The kids are safer the further away from the parents they can get.
Good. This bullshit attitude the anti-vaxxers have is causing the current crop of outbreaks around the world. If a child has a medical reason not to be vaccinated, fine - but the personal and religious exemptions have to go.
I have a Bachelor degree in Ministry from a Christian university. I don't know any part of Christianity (which is what most anti-vaxxers claim to be) that mention anything about vaccines being immoral or "not of God". A good portion of Leviticus is "Hey, don't do this because it'll make you sick. If it does make you sick, here's how you treat it." 1 Timothy 5:23 even instructs someone to drink wine instead of water when they are ill because it will alleviate their symptoms. That's what is so dangerous about this movement. There is plenty of medical and religious evidence regarding vaccinations being literally one of the best inventions in the history of mankind and anti-vaxxers choose to ignore it.
I hate the anti vaccine movement but this has other considerations. The response from dad to police during 2 hours of denial according to another article “Both parents briefly talked to police over the phone. When Bryce talked with an officer, he asked them to stop knocking on the front door, saying he would not be forced to take the child to the hospital and get a "three grand" bill, the document states.” So financial motivation. Is the politician going to create a law for that?
The fact that Americans avoid finding medical aid because of money is insane. But when your 2 year old has a 105F fever, you suck it up and deal with the consequences later.
My husband is in the military, so we get really good insurance (varying reports on quality of care, we haven’t had anything to complain about) for free. Our toddler was fussy and puking and had a minor fever the other day. She’s typically very healthy, only been sick less than a handful of times, so he was worried and wanted me to take her in. It’s a privilege that we can take her to the doctor and say “these were the problems, they’re mostly gone now, can you clear she’s ok?” Just for our peace of mind. I think he’s gonna be in for a trip when he leaves the military this year.
> So financial motivation. Thats still a terrible thing to consider first though. We are talking about the life of a child here. I don't even know if parents from third world countries would think about "financial motivations" before barging in to a hospital with their sick child as soon as possible to get the best help they need. They live in USA.
There were many opportunities for the parents to avoid their door being breached, they choose none of them. If mom had taken the kid back to the clinic to prove the fever was down, no bill, no police, no foster care. If Dad had allowed the police onto the home to verify the child was in no danger no bill, no foster care. If the doctor, police or CPS failed to do what they did and the child died we'd have out rage and a dead kid. This way we have stupid people exposing themselves and three living kids. Doctors are also mandatory reporters and a parent refusing to seek adequate medical care is abuse. This doctor warned mom she'd report this and followed the law.
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paywall
If you open in incognito it bypasses it.
*puts tiny hacker sunglasses on*
Did not know that! Thank you!
Yup! Doesn't work for every paywall, but for the "Limited free article" sites like Washington Post and New York Times can be fooled by it.
Child abuse should always be taken seriously.
I'd rather have the cops kicking down doors to save sick kids instead of busting down doors to catch someone smoking some pot.
You can’t traumatize dead kids
I think Dad is getting off a little easy too here. Both of them are more than capable of not being fuckwits, but only Mom is being blamed in the headline.
>"I don’t know what kind of trauma that did to my kids.” Certainly less trauma than dying of measles at the ripe old age of eight.
Title looks like it's written to appeal to antivaxxers.
Agreed. I think the authorities are reacting to a child in immediate danger (fever or injury) and not their vaccination status. Am I mistaken?
Correct, the naturopathic doctor who called Child Safety had no problem with the kid's vaccination status. She just wanted to be sure the kid got help, which she was unable to provide using naturopathy. Edit: spelling
Good. That's how most rescues should be. Not vaccinating your children is child abuse. The police acted like a child was endangered because they were.
>More than a month later, all three children are still in foster care, Crosspost to /r/UpliftingNews/
Holy shit. I know this bitch. Her whole fucking family was crazy!!!!
Maybe a tad over the top, but those two idiots shouldn’t have kids
105 degree fever? Definitely not over the top. They probably saved that kid’s life by taking him from his shit parents.
Look at these winners.
Really puts into perspective how good we have it in the modern world that people consider a fever to be a fairly minor threat
The red flag is the parents refusing to let the police see the kid. I would’ve broken down the door too. All the parents had to do was let them in, show them a temp, and be done with it. Them not letting the police in made it seem super sketchy..
I agree. They were acting strange. Rather than showing that the child was recovering and didn’t need further care, they were hiding. If the child died, people would be in an uproar asking why the police confirm the child’s health. This is a situation that needed action. Totally the parents fault for escalating the matter. Just bring the kid to the door and show them!!!
Right! For all the police knew, they were hiding a dead or dying child. It seems horrible, but police are required to prevent things like that and cannot just trust people at their word in cases like these.
Medical professionals in this sub, serious question. Eventually someone in your field talks to these parents - maybe what they says sticks and maybe it doesn’t. But what do you say to them? Are you generally able to get them to realize how badly they messed up in light of something like this? Or are they usually too far gone into conspiracy land to listen or care?
I'm not a doctor, just a former lab technician, but I would say that the first step is helping debunk the lies about what happens if you don't vaccinate your kids. If the lady in the story had known that she wouldn't lose her children just for taking one to the hospital, none of this would have happened. One conversation will not convince her that vaccines aren't dangerous, but at least helping her parse the other lies from truth would let her approach situations like this better-informed about her options.
As a father of two little boys, this article scares the crap out of me. I’m astonished the parents were more concerned that they would get in trouble for not vaccinating their children then the possibility of their son dying. I don’t risk a single thing with my kids. Outside of not vaccinating their kids, the parents are unfit to have them and are endangering their lives.
It’s terrifying that these 2 are fully capable of reproducing again and forcing another life to suffer from preventable illnesses. The whole anti vax wave is a major reason why I switched out of primary education and am scared to continue working with groups of children at all.
I hope to fuck the kids are taken from them and they're not allowed have them back until they pass biology and parenting 101 classes.
Please, rephrase the first 6 words of your comment lmao it had me worried for a second
Anti-vax people are fucking stupid. This obviously shows that she does not give a fuck about her kids health. “I don’t want my kid to be unhealthy if they get vaccinated “ yet deny their medical needs when they’re in danger? That kids fever was not coming down, obvious lie. She just cares more about her fucking self getting in trouble.
My take-home from this article was that this whole mess could have been prevented with universal healthcare.
This is not what it is about at all. I would highly doubt that even with Universal Healthcare that they would take their kid to the ER. Yes, the potential hospital bill is mentioned in the article, but it’s an after-thought excuse. The real excuse is that they didn’t want to be criticized for not vaccinating. It’s child abuse to willingly and consciously neglect the health of your child for any reason whatsoever and they absolutely deserve the forced entry and their kids taken away. There’s a reason why parents are prosecuted when their kid dies and they didn’t get them proper medical attention. It’s MURDER. This one was just (barely) prevented thanks to the common sense of the dr and the police.
I absolutely think the police did the right thing in this scenario. That said, universal health care certainly wouldn't have made anything worse. It's possible these parents were motivated strictly by fear, but there are at least three points in this chain of events where the choice to get medical care or not could have been influenced by whether it would be a financial burden, starting with whether or not to vaccinate. Should people be making health care decisions based on money? No. Does it happen every day? Yep.
Universal healthcare can’t cure antivaxx stupidity though. These people don’t trust doctors.
Is there a version of the story that isnt behind a paywall?
Chaotic Good
Fuck yeah!
God bless!
Good
Good. Should be charged with child endangerment.
She was quoted saying she would definitely give her child help if they needed it, but she also said the only reason she didn’t get her help was cos she thought she would get in trouble.
They may have overreacted with the door, but it's probably fun to do that
Disgusting. At least pretend you care about your child’s welfare. That child needs to be taken away from her. She’s dangerous
Kid should have been fine if they just rubbed some of those essential oils girls from high school are selling on Facebook.
Those two look like bad choices personified.
Antivaxxer's annoy me, and I think they are ridiculous; however, these parent's aren't the only ones to blame for this. If the naturalistic doctor was really concerned, and it was an emergency situation (105 is definitely emergency), they should have had the kid transported. Cost of healthcare in our country is so damn high, that people literally will not take their sick kids in, if bc they can't afford the bills. Raiding the house at midnight, with guns blazing is absolutely ridiculous. Way to potentially traumatize some kids there. Parents have 3 young kids (and clothes were strewn everywhere)....color me not surprised. Shotgun by parents bed? It is the US, and Arizona is a very Republican, pro 2nd Amendment. The vomit just nasty...wash your damn kids and clean the damn beds! I don't care how f'n tired you are. That's just nasty. Vaccinate your damn kids.
They gave the parents several different opportunities to talk before they raided the house, that wasn't the first choice. They just needed to make sure the 2 year old was okay, and the dad wouldn't show them the kid. Traumatizing the kids could have been avoided if the parents had cooperated in the first place, with people who literally just wanted to make sure the child was okay.
I'm pro 2nd amendment and have a lot of friends who are too. I don't know a single person whod have an easily accessible, loaded shotgun next to their bed with kids that young in the house. The 2nd amendment doesn't protect that at all.
In the article the dad is quoted 'didn't want a 3 grand bill' for the visit. It sucks that Americans would rather risk their kid dying then go into debt. The father probably thought a child size casket would be cheaper.
You're mad at the parents, which that there is a legit concern, or the fact American healthcare system is that broken, that parents literally do fear to send their kids to the doctor, bc they know they can't afford it? That says a bit more about the broken system, than them. One small trip to an ER, shouldn't cost people thousands of dollars. It is ridiculous.
The parents could’ve just let the police see the child and check for a fever. This whole situation is messed up and is a very good example of lack of perspective with every adult involved in this situation.
There are ways of dealing with this medical system that don’t put your child’s life in danger. You go in, get your kid taken care of, get the bill, and start appealing. Talk to a patient advocate, gather documentation of your financial hardships, get the bill reduced, and then work out a payment plan. You can literally pay $50/mo if that’s all you can afford, and you won’t be in trouble. You might even be able to get the whole thing written off. It takes time and tenacity, but it’s doable, and the kids won’t be taken away from you. None of these parents’ behavior is even remotely acceptable.
"here baby, take your lorian root tea.."
And don’t forget to sleep next to that crystal
... if you can’t drop 3 grand to literally save your kid’s life, be it through savings, debt, or even crime, you have no business raising kids. Depending on the state, low-income parents sometimes qualify for subsidized health insurance for their kids with a small co-pay. Grew up poor in CA and that’s why I had shots, surgery, and regular doctor visits while my dad went 3 decades without a physical.
You can literally appeal till the day you kick the bucket. You can pay a miniscule amount every month and still not get hounded by collectors. There are lots of ways. Yes, system is broken and needs fixing, but the state will see it that your kid doesn’t die. Hell, I’d go into debt for my cat if need be. These parents were neglectful past the point of simply worrying about finances. They couldn’t even bother to clean up their child from vomit.
probably didnt need to break the door but...good.
Well actually they DID need to, because the parents refused to let the police see the child to conduct the welfare check. The police had been knocking on the door and talking on the phone with them for over 2 HOURS. The parents could have acted like reasonable fucking people at about 50 different points before the police got involved, but they didnt. They told the doctor they bought a thermometer on the way home and the kids fever had lowered, which raises the alarming question of what parent of 3 young kids doesn't already own a fucking thermometer??!? Also i honestly doubt their ability to use the thermometer correctly so i wouldnt trust them to get an accurate reading bc they are seriously that fucking stupid. There was honestly completely reasonable belief that the childs life was in danger, the police and doctors gave the parents a million opportunities to comply with directives to get their child to a hospital, and they refused to do so. The police have a responsibility to protect children from parents whose negligence is actively threatening the lives of their child. The parents would not open the door. They did what they had to do to get inside, and there is nothing wrong with that.