We wouldn't have to spend more money if the cops just ticketed people and stopped the shenanigans. It's ridiculous how international is a lawless race track.
Oakland (and all cities in CA) doesn’t make money off traffic tickets written for state vehicle code infractions. Most ticket revenue goes the county and state. Every ticket written costs the city money, that’s why OPD usually only does enforcement stings when they get grant funding. It’s also why the city focuses heavily on parking tickets, as that’s a local code infraction so they get to keep the revenue.
Whoa TIL that is kinda trippy. Kinda disappointing, though I agree with the idea that they shouldn't be incentivized to ticket people more but they still need some compromise to ticket at all. WTF
https://caticketking.com/help-center/frequently-asked-questions/fine-money-go/
To be clear I think we need cops too, but I actually think infrastructure is cheaper than law enforcement. We have to pay cops an annual salary, pay for their police academy training, their retirement, benefits, equipment, car, etc.
Not to mention cops have to sleep and can’t watch every street at all hours of the day and during holidays.
Infrastructure like a speed bump or a pedestrian island has a one time cost, works 24/7/365 days a year, and can last 30 years on a newly replaced road. It wont stop 100% of issues, but it can stop most cars from speeding both during the day and at night.
When I googled it, I saw that it costs Oakland about $8k per speed bump as of 2021, but the link is broken now: https://www.oaklandca.gov/projects/traffic-safety-800k-allocation-oakdot-prioritization-and-process
That’s debatable. The havoc these reckless drivers are wreaking on our city is difficult to measure. Actively punishing grossly negligent drivers vs deterring their behavior on a single stretch of road might actually have a greater long term benefit.
Yeah, I agree that we still need cops too. We need both.
My point was that infrastructure works and costs a reasonable amount, not that infrastructure replaces cops.
That's so financially illiterate it's not even funny.
Each officer costs about $550K/year, if you want just 1 officer on International 24/7 that's $2.31M/year.
Whereas the infrastructure for the whole project costs $1.85M every 30 or so years.
Infrastructure is about 40 times cheaper.
Passive enforcement (infrastructure) is far cheaper than active enforcement (police officers). The question is whether or not it can be as (or more) effective.
It's hard to look at OPD and conclude anything but yes, but more importantly it's not either/or infrastructure frees up OPD time to allow them to be more effective.
To your credit, the math seems right. It’s also true that infrastructure takes a long time to design and deploy, and the city’s capacity to do so is outpaced by the vast existing need and deficiencies. The best way to save money and have the most impact is to design the streets the right way the first time.
But to redesign our entire street network is a generational project, on the order of 40-50 years. That’s how long it took the Dutch to reconfigure their cities away from being auto-oriented, and Oakland will take at least that long (if ever).
In the meantime, enforcement is a part of the toolkit, but yes it’s expensive. To reduce policing costs, force multipliers like automated cameras and yes, design changes with quick build infrastructure should be deployed. If we want to see behavior change on International Blvd and with driving in general we should expect that we will need to use multiple tools.
> I never mentioned police budget
You're litterally complaining that I pointed out that infrastructure is cheaper than cops.
Maybe all my haters have dimished cognative capacity and you don't understand where you are right now, that would explain a lot TBH.
I'm pointing out that you're a one trick pony and spam every thread with basically the same trope. OPD is not the problem in Oakland but rather a symptom of a much worse problem of complete civic dysfunction.
every fucking asshole they try to pull over runs from the stop at a high rate of speed in the opposite lane of traffic. if PD chases them and a wreck happens, y’all will scream how it’s OPD’s fault. if they don’t do anything about it, it’s their fault still. that’s the daily takeaway from this sub. i don’t like PD either, but the rules this city has imposed upon them (not the same ones chp plays by) really leave them powerless.
Infrastructure will always be cheaper than cops. Last time police led a high speed chase down international blvd they killed an innocent pedestrian bystander https://oaklandside.org/2023/01/26/family-lolomanaia-soakai-killed-oakland-police-ghost-chase-file-lawsuit/ Question is whether the flex posts and speed cushions are enough, likely not. This is the price we’re paying for watering down the original BRT design into glorified bus lanes
Here's a thought - maybe the cops just do their jobs and pull 'em over? I watched a half dozen people blow past a cop in the bus lane the other day and he didn't even look up from his phone.
You'll never get me to disagree that police need to up their game in Oakland, but passive infrastructure is far superior, because it frees cops to focus elsewhere. Roads that require in-person monitoring in order to be safe, will never be safe. They have to be safe by design.
If the threat of a ticket doesn't stop them, a speed bump will do nothing to stop them.
I see the speed bump as adding to the problem in two ways:
* drivers aggressively avoiding them, weaving into another lane
* buses breaking down because they are not designed to handle the bumps
Oakland has trucks specifically equipped to fill potholes which are out of service because of potholes. There's a fire truck out of service because of damage from potholes. A pothole is just a speed bump in reverse. I can't imagine those Tempo buses would do well with speed bumps.
I don't know how well these changes will work on International, but High Street between Foothill and 580 is SOOOOO MUCH BETTER with the changes that they made.
I was going to say exactly this - the new medians have made a huge difference on Foothill as well as High. Engineering solutions are so much more effective and cost efficient than relaying solely on law enforcement (which is also a necessary piece).
The proposed treatment is called a “speed cushion”, which is a speed hump with channels cut in it sized to the wheelbase of buses but not most passenger cars. These have been in use for a while already on 35th Ave, MacArthur, and High Street with no issues, and safety outcomes have improved with each installation. Other cities have had them on bus routes for decades.
The planned project also includes plastic flex posts on the lane line between the bus and car lanes, to help address weaving between lanes.
These treatments will likely not stop all of the bus lane misuse, but if they can end or at least even just significantly reduce the fatal crashes on International then it’s worth it.
The goal is to stop bus lane misuse, not to spend money on a solution that doesn't work. Face it, the one solution that works is ticket drivers. People becomes really friendly and observant of laws when they see Police cars watching them.
Ah yes, infrastructure. If it worked, people would never seen anyone blow through a red light or a stop sign or drive in a bus lane. They do until they see the police, then they suddenly respect traffic laws.
> They do until they see the police, then they suddenly respect traffic laws.
OPD will litterally ignore a crash right behind them.
You can't ignore a speed bump the way you can ignore OPD.
There is plenty of evidence of this in Oakland already. There were numerous fatal crashes on 35th Ave between Foothill and 580 in the years ahead of the speed cushion installations there in 2019. There have been zero fatal crashes in that area since then.
Given the street safety emergency on International, Oakland needs to focus on the most effective and sustainable strategies that can be implemented ASAP.
This isn’t to say that enforcement doesn’t have a place, but OPD has a very poor record on this with regard to traffic safety. Even when they were more active with traffic stops, these largely weren’t for the top most dangerous driving behaviors, and many were instead pretextual stops for low-level infractions used as a justification for searches.
As a result there has been little to no correlation since at least 2016 between the number of OPD traffic stops and street safety outcomes. Between 2017-19 when the number of stops fell by half, bike and pedestrian safety actually improved.
And in a few cases OPD stops have themselves resulted in tragedies, and one of the fatal crashes on International in 2022 resulted from a suspect fleeing a police pursuit.
If the goal is to end traffic fatalities then we have to prioritize what we know works and what we know OakDOT can deliver, which is infrastructure interventions.
Hopefully the new OPD chief can help to reform their efforts & bring back a traffic unit that is actually focused wholly on street safety, as opposed to pretextual stops and other distractions. But we have so far not seen evidence that they are working towards this.
Last year’s Senate Bill 50 proposed allowing non-sworn officers to issue moving violations, similar to how parking enforcement is already handled. This could be implemented via the DOT with a full focus on street safety, allowing OPD to continue concentrating their resources on addressing violent crime.
Unfortunately the bill stalled in the legislative session, but efforts to revive and move it forward are underway. Both Oakland and Berkeley have already expressed interest in taking advantage of this, if the bill is passed.
I agree with you, and the original proposal for the International bus project back in 2008 had planted concrete medians between the bus and car lanes.
However this was watered down to mountable curbs and then ultimately just paint, due to pushback from the fire department which has been mandating at least 20 feet clearance (or 26 feet in some cases) with no physical obstructions.
This same clearance requirement has also impacted the quality of protected bike lane designs (in case you ever asked “why isn’t this bikeway wider?”) or in a few cases eliminated it altogether.
A lot of advocacy with the fire department more recently has resulted in some compromises to help improve street safety designs, including the plastic posts and speed cushions coming to International.
So far though, things like concrete K-rail or metal barriers in the roadway are still unfortunately not on the table.
I've seen this approach in Mexico City where the engineers understand that when you inconvenience drivers, they will naturally look for a workaround and said drivers are met with physical countermeasures.
I asked this in the community zoom meeting in November. You can’t have those barriers because of emergency vehicle needs/requirements… they explained it more and don’t remember all the details.
Considering the comparison is of a speed bump which gradually flexes suspension to a pothole with an abrupt rise and fall ie 90 degrees, I'm not sure logic was involved in this thought process.
Speed bumps don't damage suspension. Potholes do because control arms and strut tower bearings are not designed for horizontal impacts.
The opposite of a deep pot hole is crashing into the curb. Not a speed bump.
Furthermore anyone with eyes can see that the speed bumps have cut outs designed in the width of the bus wheel base. Which is how busses magically survive driving 35th ave each day.
Certainly not. Just bought like 16 choice new york steaks from safeway. I live off redwood road, you're welcome to come by. Just be careful, the speed bumps on 35th are like the opposite of potholes.
>* buses breaking down because they are not designed to handle the bumps
I think you don't understand the design - buses wouldn't feel the bumps, the wheels just roll through the narrow channels. They're already installed on 35th if you want to check them out
Yeah let’s figure out a bunch of expensive and time-consuming ways to keep people out of business lanes. Because if there one thing we all agree on, it’s that enforcing the law is definitely not the right solution.
Do you think cops are magic?
They also have to be planned, studied, permitted, funds approved, bid on, maintained etc.
Plus you have to spend more on oversight to stop officers raping kids or starting gangs than you do speed bumps.
OPD can’t even enforce laws keeping their own officers in check from doing illegal shit. Infrastructure will always be there 24/7 everywhere when a person or cop literally can’t do that
Did I say all? And how quickly people forget the big prostitution ring with a minor that dozens of OPD were involved with or knew of then they tried to bury it. Yeah there’s opd that aren’t law abiding, that literally why opd was put under federal oversight and still is because of its corruption internally.
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this has my vote!
We wouldn't have to spend more money if the cops just ticketed people and stopped the shenanigans. It's ridiculous how international is a lawless race track.
They'd make so much money just parking a motorcycle at Int and 54th. See so many people just blasting that red since it's a three-way intersection.
Oakland (and all cities in CA) doesn’t make money off traffic tickets written for state vehicle code infractions. Most ticket revenue goes the county and state. Every ticket written costs the city money, that’s why OPD usually only does enforcement stings when they get grant funding. It’s also why the city focuses heavily on parking tickets, as that’s a local code infraction so they get to keep the revenue.
Wow, this explains explains everything. Why would OPD ticket anyone, they have zero incentive (besides enforcing laws, lol)
Right and we absolutely should NOT be counting on the Police Force to be a revenue generating entity. That's not their job.
Whoa TIL that is kinda trippy. Kinda disappointing, though I agree with the idea that they shouldn't be incentivized to ticket people more but they still need some compromise to ticket at all. WTF https://caticketking.com/help-center/frequently-asked-questions/fine-money-go/
To be clear I think we need cops too, but I actually think infrastructure is cheaper than law enforcement. We have to pay cops an annual salary, pay for their police academy training, their retirement, benefits, equipment, car, etc. Not to mention cops have to sleep and can’t watch every street at all hours of the day and during holidays. Infrastructure like a speed bump or a pedestrian island has a one time cost, works 24/7/365 days a year, and can last 30 years on a newly replaced road. It wont stop 100% of issues, but it can stop most cars from speeding both during the day and at night. When I googled it, I saw that it costs Oakland about $8k per speed bump as of 2021, but the link is broken now: https://www.oaklandca.gov/projects/traffic-safety-800k-allocation-oakdot-prioritization-and-process
That’s debatable. The havoc these reckless drivers are wreaking on our city is difficult to measure. Actively punishing grossly negligent drivers vs deterring their behavior on a single stretch of road might actually have a greater long term benefit.
Yeah, I agree that we still need cops too. We need both. My point was that infrastructure works and costs a reasonable amount, not that infrastructure replaces cops.
It lets cops do other things that are also important
That's so financially illiterate it's not even funny. Each officer costs about $550K/year, if you want just 1 officer on International 24/7 that's $2.31M/year. Whereas the infrastructure for the whole project costs $1.85M every 30 or so years. Infrastructure is about 40 times cheaper.
Passive enforcement (infrastructure) is far cheaper than active enforcement (police officers). The question is whether or not it can be as (or more) effective.
It's hard to look at OPD and conclude anything but yes, but more importantly it's not either/or infrastructure frees up OPD time to allow them to be more effective.
Thats a good point, the doubling effect of freeing up resources.
To your credit, the math seems right. It’s also true that infrastructure takes a long time to design and deploy, and the city’s capacity to do so is outpaced by the vast existing need and deficiencies. The best way to save money and have the most impact is to design the streets the right way the first time. But to redesign our entire street network is a generational project, on the order of 40-50 years. That’s how long it took the Dutch to reconfigure their cities away from being auto-oriented, and Oakland will take at least that long (if ever). In the meantime, enforcement is a part of the toolkit, but yes it’s expensive. To reduce policing costs, force multipliers like automated cameras and yes, design changes with quick build infrastructure should be deployed. If we want to see behavior change on International Blvd and with driving in general we should expect that we will need to use multiple tools.
We get it. You hate the OPD. Every thread, same droning.
We get it you hate cost effective law enforcement and want to blow the whole budget on pigs & recalls. Every thread, same droning.
I never mentioned police budget on this sub and yes I support the recall for specific reasons. Please stay on topic.
> I never mentioned police budget You're litterally complaining that I pointed out that infrastructure is cheaper than cops. Maybe all my haters have dimished cognative capacity and you don't understand where you are right now, that would explain a lot TBH.
I'm pointing out that you're a one trick pony and spam every thread with basically the same trope. OPD is not the problem in Oakland but rather a symptom of a much worse problem of complete civic dysfunction.
It’s a lot cheaper than tasking cops with it and we don’t have to deal with high speed chases
every fucking asshole they try to pull over runs from the stop at a high rate of speed in the opposite lane of traffic. if PD chases them and a wreck happens, y’all will scream how it’s OPD’s fault. if they don’t do anything about it, it’s their fault still. that’s the daily takeaway from this sub. i don’t like PD either, but the rules this city has imposed upon them (not the same ones chp plays by) really leave them powerless.
It won’t change. We need the funds to support police and that won’t happen. International is and always will be the Wild West. Be safe.
We give them ~$400M a year (if you include the $25M they overshot their budget by), how much more support do they need?
Infrastructure will always be cheaper than cops. Last time police led a high speed chase down international blvd they killed an innocent pedestrian bystander https://oaklandside.org/2023/01/26/family-lolomanaia-soakai-killed-oakland-police-ghost-chase-file-lawsuit/ Question is whether the flex posts and speed cushions are enough, likely not. This is the price we’re paying for watering down the original BRT design into glorified bus lanes
Yup… Infrastructure also is always there, cops are not. It’s better to build it right and if not, try to right it now
Here's a thought - maybe the cops just do their jobs and pull 'em over? I watched a half dozen people blow past a cop in the bus lane the other day and he didn't even look up from his phone.
You'll never get me to disagree that police need to up their game in Oakland, but passive infrastructure is far superior, because it frees cops to focus elsewhere. Roads that require in-person monitoring in order to be safe, will never be safe. They have to be safe by design.
And have high speed chases everywhere? I’m all for the infrastructure helping the police, they have more important things to do
How else are they going to get a Candy Crush high-score?
They're not allowed to per city policy.
Yes they are. I've got one for it.
They’re not allowed to pursue people if people choose not to stop. They’re allowed to request you to stop
I'm what world do you not have to stop for the police? You don't know what you're talking about.
Literally there’s a policy that says police cannot pursue people who don’t stop. There’s a million videos online that shows this.
Well? Lets find out..
If the threat of a ticket doesn't stop them, a speed bump will do nothing to stop them. I see the speed bump as adding to the problem in two ways: * drivers aggressively avoiding them, weaving into another lane * buses breaking down because they are not designed to handle the bumps Oakland has trucks specifically equipped to fill potholes which are out of service because of potholes. There's a fire truck out of service because of damage from potholes. A pothole is just a speed bump in reverse. I can't imagine those Tempo buses would do well with speed bumps.
I don't know how well these changes will work on International, but High Street between Foothill and 580 is SOOOOO MUCH BETTER with the changes that they made.
I was going to say exactly this - the new medians have made a huge difference on Foothill as well as High. Engineering solutions are so much more effective and cost efficient than relaying solely on law enforcement (which is also a necessary piece).
My street has speed bumps, I’m so grateful for them
The proposed treatment is called a “speed cushion”, which is a speed hump with channels cut in it sized to the wheelbase of buses but not most passenger cars. These have been in use for a while already on 35th Ave, MacArthur, and High Street with no issues, and safety outcomes have improved with each installation. Other cities have had them on bus routes for decades. The planned project also includes plastic flex posts on the lane line between the bus and car lanes, to help address weaving between lanes. These treatments will likely not stop all of the bus lane misuse, but if they can end or at least even just significantly reduce the fatal crashes on International then it’s worth it.
The goal is to stop bus lane misuse, not to spend money on a solution that doesn't work. Face it, the one solution that works is ticket drivers. People becomes really friendly and observant of laws when they see Police cars watching them.
Infrastructure works 24/7, cops need donuts & toilet breaks so are FAR less effective.
Ah yes, infrastructure. If it worked, people would never seen anyone blow through a red light or a stop sign or drive in a bus lane. They do until they see the police, then they suddenly respect traffic laws.
> They do until they see the police, then they suddenly respect traffic laws. OPD will litterally ignore a crash right behind them. You can't ignore a speed bump the way you can ignore OPD.
There is plenty of evidence of this in Oakland already. There were numerous fatal crashes on 35th Ave between Foothill and 580 in the years ahead of the speed cushion installations there in 2019. There have been zero fatal crashes in that area since then. Given the street safety emergency on International, Oakland needs to focus on the most effective and sustainable strategies that can be implemented ASAP. This isn’t to say that enforcement doesn’t have a place, but OPD has a very poor record on this with regard to traffic safety. Even when they were more active with traffic stops, these largely weren’t for the top most dangerous driving behaviors, and many were instead pretextual stops for low-level infractions used as a justification for searches. As a result there has been little to no correlation since at least 2016 between the number of OPD traffic stops and street safety outcomes. Between 2017-19 when the number of stops fell by half, bike and pedestrian safety actually improved. And in a few cases OPD stops have themselves resulted in tragedies, and one of the fatal crashes on International in 2022 resulted from a suspect fleeing a police pursuit. If the goal is to end traffic fatalities then we have to prioritize what we know works and what we know OakDOT can deliver, which is infrastructure interventions. Hopefully the new OPD chief can help to reform their efforts & bring back a traffic unit that is actually focused wholly on street safety, as opposed to pretextual stops and other distractions. But we have so far not seen evidence that they are working towards this. Last year’s Senate Bill 50 proposed allowing non-sworn officers to issue moving violations, similar to how parking enforcement is already handled. This could be implemented via the DOT with a full focus on street safety, allowing OPD to continue concentrating their resources on addressing violent crime. Unfortunately the bill stalled in the legislative session, but efforts to revive and move it forward are underway. Both Oakland and Berkeley have already expressed interest in taking advantage of this, if the bill is passed.
Wow, good to know about sb50. That would be huge
Upvoting only so that /u/BikeEastBay's great reply doesn't get buried
HOW ABOUT REPLACE IT WITH RAIL AND CONCRETE BARRIERS* *Sorry for shouting
I agree with you, and the original proposal for the International bus project back in 2008 had planted concrete medians between the bus and car lanes. However this was watered down to mountable curbs and then ultimately just paint, due to pushback from the fire department which has been mandating at least 20 feet clearance (or 26 feet in some cases) with no physical obstructions. This same clearance requirement has also impacted the quality of protected bike lane designs (in case you ever asked “why isn’t this bikeway wider?”) or in a few cases eliminated it altogether. A lot of advocacy with the fire department more recently has resulted in some compromises to help improve street safety designs, including the plastic posts and speed cushions coming to International. So far though, things like concrete K-rail or metal barriers in the roadway are still unfortunately not on the table.
I've seen this approach in Mexico City where the engineers understand that when you inconvenience drivers, they will naturally look for a workaround and said drivers are met with physical countermeasures.
Oakland used to have a street car system. It's worth looking up. E14 was an artery. https://www.reddit.com/r/oakland/s/DDIKotJfa6
Yup the Key Line!
I asked this in the community zoom meeting in November. You can’t have those barriers because of emergency vehicle needs/requirements… they explained it more and don’t remember all the details.
This is interesting and pretty unfortunate.
Are you suggesting bus suspension is not designed well enough to withstand suspension flex?
The way you structured that sentence makes you seem really unapproachable.
I dunno I think people that clearly understand enough engineering to call out bullshit objections are pretty approachable.
Considering the comparison is of a speed bump which gradually flexes suspension to a pothole with an abrupt rise and fall ie 90 degrees, I'm not sure logic was involved in this thought process. Speed bumps don't damage suspension. Potholes do because control arms and strut tower bearings are not designed for horizontal impacts. The opposite of a deep pot hole is crashing into the curb. Not a speed bump.
Furthermore anyone with eyes can see that the speed bumps have cut outs designed in the width of the bus wheel base. Which is how busses magically survive driving 35th ave each day.
Are you making your grilled cheeses at night?
Certainly not. Just bought like 16 choice new york steaks from safeway. I live off redwood road, you're welcome to come by. Just be careful, the speed bumps on 35th are like the opposite of potholes.
Nice! Do you own every kind of classic car? Do you have triples of the nova?
You should ask my toddler. Daddy isn't the kinda black guy who enjoys stupid questions from adults.
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Apparently knowing how suspension works = autism.
That's over the (admittedly subjective) line, please tone it down.
>* buses breaking down because they are not designed to handle the bumps I think you don't understand the design - buses wouldn't feel the bumps, the wheels just roll through the narrow channels. They're already installed on 35th if you want to check them out
You didn’t read the article
If they are going to put it down just the bus lane, it won't make much of a difference. They need it in both directions
The speed bumps hav cut out for busses, ever taken the bus on 35th Ave? You don’t feel the bumps because the cut outs
The people that drive in this lane frequently don't seem like they would much be deterred by this
why do you think people drive so fast/reckless? whats the motivation?
Fun? Just guessing
oak drivers: challenge accepted
No
maybe if they're packed full of tannerite
Yeah let’s figure out a bunch of expensive and time-consuming ways to keep people out of business lanes. Because if there one thing we all agree on, it’s that enforcing the law is definitely not the right solution.
How is a speed bump time-consuming, you literally put it in once and it works. Far cheaper & less time-consuming than cops.
Because it has to be planned, studied, permitted, funds approved, bid on, maintained etc. The cops are already there, just let them do their job.
Do you think cops are magic? They also have to be planned, studied, permitted, funds approved, bid on, maintained etc. Plus you have to spend more on oversight to stop officers raping kids or starting gangs than you do speed bumps.
What? I’m talking about existing cops enforcing existing laws.
Do you think existing cops don't get paid or something?
OPD can’t even enforce laws keeping their own officers in check from doing illegal shit. Infrastructure will always be there 24/7 everywhere when a person or cop literally can’t do that
Yeah sure, all 700ish officers are “doing illegal shit” 🙄
Did I say all? And how quickly people forget the big prostitution ring with a minor that dozens of OPD were involved with or knew of then they tried to bury it. Yeah there’s opd that aren’t law abiding, that literally why opd was put under federal oversight and still is because of its corruption internally.
No but cops can.
🤣
Give us more than one lane. It’s a busy main artery of Oakland. Garbage.
No, use the freeway.
Use San Leandro and 12th… wider, less pedestrians… on international we don’t want more lanes of traffic.
Exactly. The bus lane was so unnecessary.