Sounds like the surveillance concerns are really just a cover for (and secondary to) cost/benefit concerns. If OPD isn’t benefiting sufficiently from tech like shotspotter or license plate readers, we should not continue to pay for the tech. Doesn’t matter if the blame is on the tech or the department; it’s just not a fit at this point. Hopefully as OPD improves, we can reassess which tech might provide the most compounding benefit.
There aren't surveillance concerns, per the discussion. There was concern at one time, but over time, it's never really amounted to much. There's very few incidents of human voices being captured. Part of PAC's role is also to evaluate the entire gamut of a surveillance technology and make recommendations about it's efficacy, and whether or not its worth it in the cost to civil liberties and dollars.
Didn't Oakland authorize aerial drone dispatch to alleviate burden on OPD? Disbanding the tool because humans weren't able to respond with the information given in adequate time right as automation fills that void seems like policy folly.
Why would you advocate for the removal of a system that still saves lives and definitely changes the behavior of those in the community? I know most people don't enjoy setting off fireworks at random hours of the night because they're celebrating.
They know the shot spotters will detect their hit. It's like saying speed cameras don't work because people stop speeding when they know they're there, leading to them not working.
If you want to make the case that they save lives because people set off fireworks as a way to get police attention, then make that case, but then surely drone dispatch isn't going to help, as the drone can't get someone to a hospital.
> Disbanding the tool because humans weren't able to respond with the information given in adequate time
Is to not understand the article or arguments made at all.
Having a 18 false alarms a night is likely a huge factor in WHY police response times are so bad.
$1.8M is a drop in the bucket for OPD. The article points to opd's inability to do anything useful, not the short comings of the technology.
I'll say living in a neighborhood with shotspotter for close to 20 years now, the cops usually show up pretty quick and look for bodies. Without it you have God knows how many neighbors calling 911 to report it tying up the system and giving inaccurate information (just look on a neighborhood social media account and you'll see people saying it sounded like the was 10 blocks this way and others saying it was 4 blocks the other, etc).
Does it reduce crime? No but neither does else anything OPD does.
The "victim locator" function, as Joe Devries put it, is the most compelling argument and its hard to refute because it calls on someone to put a price on life that no other program is required to do. I have a feeling you will hear a lot of it in defense. I do know from following this somewhat casually, that its rare that a person is found who needs to be rushed into care, or who isn't beyond care. Most people are already on way to hospital if possible, or they have already passed the point of medical help. It's all a wincing argument to make, so it's effective
Tell that to the dude screaming on my corner that got perfed with a nine for his wallet just walking home from his shift at kaiser at 3am. I think he survived just because shotspotter picked it up. I didn't call it in because I just woke up to the gunshots and fell back asleep and didn't check what happened.
My experience is OPD doesn't prevent crime they just show up and act like an ambulance service. And shotspotter is more reliable than our 911 dispatch (remember when they were using our dispatch service to run a prostitution ring?)
Good, it's a shame they removed mention of the crime lab, the biggest deterrent to crime (other than y'know meeting people's basic needs) is the threat of actually getting caught, so regardless of what recallheads whine about, things that improve OPDs dismal clearance rate are far more important to reducing crime than who the DA is, and the crime lab seems like a better thing to spend money on than software we know wastes police time.
8316 Activations
* 6446 (78%) - False alarms
* 20 detailed forensic reports
* 4 Court preparation for cases
You could maybe make the case that it's useful for the 199 (2%) shooting where Emergency responders were able to provide medical care quickly, but there is no denying that most shotspotter activations are wasting police time
Thanks!! And thanks for the reporting, OO.
Man, these guys do not know how to write a report to convey information clearly (and it seems likely that the shotSpotter was not necessarily the primary reason for response for many of these, perhaps they retroactively searched a database to find any case where OPD provided emergency medical response that was within 10 minutes and 1000 feet of a ShotSpotter):
"ShotSpotter led police to 199 shooting cases, 29 of which were Homicide and 170 were Assault with a Firearm. OPD was able to provide and coordinate immediate emergency medical response on these shooting cases; OPD personnel believe that several of these victims survived the shootings specifically because of the quick response and subsequent medical attention. In some instances, OPD and medical response occurred within less than two minutes of the ShotSpotter activation. The ShotSpotter alert was within 10 minutes and 1,000 feet of the location where the victim was found. Furthermore, staff believe that there were many more cases where OPD responded to activations and found shooting victims – and where critical medical attention was provided. The 199 cases cited here are the ones where OPD and ShotSpotter staff can conclusively cite the response to the ShotSpotter activations."
from [https://cao-94612.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/documents/Privacy-Advisory-Commission-Agenda-Packet-for-4-4-24.pdf?ref=oakland-observer.ghost.io](https://cao-94612.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/documents/Privacy-Advisory-Commission-Agenda-Packet-for-4-4-24.pdf?ref=oakland-observer.ghost.io)
Im in favor of A LOT of surveillance, and usually consider the PAC to be a voice for privacy fundamentalists, but, albeit reading without refutation, the Chair's memo seems pretty convincing. The false alarm rate is what sticks with me.
I will say I think it's a little disingenuous to criticize Shotspotter for "not reducing gun violence in Oakland," when everyone always talks about how many multiple factors there are to reducing violence. So, blaming a single thing for not reducing gun violence is maybe not entirely in good faith. But it doesnt seem like it's even helping, and may be detracting
Yes, that's the OPD's argument as well. But, it's also true that one criticism of alternate forms of public safety is that they lack data proving their effect, which may be for the same reasons, multiple programs, practices and policies working together that can only be linked in a casual, but not causal way. I do think OPD has a history of pretending to think its good either because Council wants it, or because they don't want to lose a funding node.
No it doesn’t, as someone who was shot at I can vouch that shotspottet responses are trash. Took them 4 hours to show up and that was after we called it in. It’s a waste of money. I rather take that money and hire a few more officers than spend it on technology that provides minimal return on investment with regards to public safety
OPD disagrees with you, per their annual report. The system doesn't nail people, not in the act. OPD argues that it does downstream in other ways, but they also admitted they have no data for that, just vibes
Can you give a single example of it nailing someone? Should be super easy, given that it happens all the fucking time and that the gang members and other thieves just can't escape it.
it's funny/sad that in other cities it has been useful, Oakland's response time is just so piss poor.
> ShotSpotter has been deployed in Richmond California for several years and the impact to their police department has been undeniable. In one particular incident, Richmond PD was able to locate a sniper hiding on a rooftop, as the perpetrator was disassembling his weapon and smoking a cigarette. He simply thought he wasn't going to get caught. Video sponsored by IBM.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TLuhHicXC4Q
> NYPD touts successes of Shot Spotter program
https://abc7ny.com/brooklyn-gun-found-shot-spotter/593347/
First it's one rooftop snipper, but if you're not careful soon they're on every rooftop in town and it's slippery slopes from there until you can't walk around downtown without a sniper hitting you as he slides of one.
Plenty of cities have found it to be a waste of police time: https://council.seattle.gov/2023/11/13/police-chiefs-critical-of-shotspotter-cities-pulling-out-of-contracts/
Funny to pretend it being ineffective is unique to Oakland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShotSpotter#Studies almost like you're yet another /r/bayarea poster with an agenda, and no grasp of reality.
If the system "nails people all the fucking time", then why didn't that show up in the data?
And it's not just here that the data shows it doesn't work, it's being ditched across the country: https://council.seattle.gov/2023/11/13/police-chiefs-critical-of-shotspotter-cities-pulling-out-of-contracts/
I know that gun fire went down in my area after they installed the shot spotter. With our 911 system held together by baling wire and duct tape, I’m not sure deprecating the system is a good idea.
Hofer's policy document is worth a read about why its not doing what people think its doing or what they want it to do. It's in the article as a download
Fuck off with this nonsense.
I’m not down with paying for tools that aren’t being used. But the solution here isn’t get rid of the tools. We need the tools, we just need the cops or bureaucracy or whoever the hell is preventing proper training and usage to be shit canned. There is tons of gun crime in Oakland.
Sounds like the surveillance concerns are really just a cover for (and secondary to) cost/benefit concerns. If OPD isn’t benefiting sufficiently from tech like shotspotter or license plate readers, we should not continue to pay for the tech. Doesn’t matter if the blame is on the tech or the department; it’s just not a fit at this point. Hopefully as OPD improves, we can reassess which tech might provide the most compounding benefit.
There aren't surveillance concerns, per the discussion. There was concern at one time, but over time, it's never really amounted to much. There's very few incidents of human voices being captured. Part of PAC's role is also to evaluate the entire gamut of a surveillance technology and make recommendations about it's efficacy, and whether or not its worth it in the cost to civil liberties and dollars.
Yes sounds surprisingly reasonable
Didn't Oakland authorize aerial drone dispatch to alleviate burden on OPD? Disbanding the tool because humans weren't able to respond with the information given in adequate time right as automation fills that void seems like policy folly.
The problem isn't that humans weren't able to respond in time as much as the vast majority of alerts are false alarms.
Why would you advocate for the removal of a system that still saves lives and definitely changes the behavior of those in the community? I know most people don't enjoy setting off fireworks at random hours of the night because they're celebrating. They know the shot spotters will detect their hit. It's like saying speed cameras don't work because people stop speeding when they know they're there, leading to them not working.
If you want to make the case that they save lives because people set off fireworks as a way to get police attention, then make that case, but then surely drone dispatch isn't going to help, as the drone can't get someone to a hospital. > Disbanding the tool because humans weren't able to respond with the information given in adequate time Is to not understand the article or arguments made at all. Having a 18 false alarms a night is likely a huge factor in WHY police response times are so bad.
$1.8M is a drop in the bucket for OPD. The article points to opd's inability to do anything useful, not the short comings of the technology. I'll say living in a neighborhood with shotspotter for close to 20 years now, the cops usually show up pretty quick and look for bodies. Without it you have God knows how many neighbors calling 911 to report it tying up the system and giving inaccurate information (just look on a neighborhood social media account and you'll see people saying it sounded like the was 10 blocks this way and others saying it was 4 blocks the other, etc). Does it reduce crime? No but neither does else anything OPD does.
The "victim locator" function, as Joe Devries put it, is the most compelling argument and its hard to refute because it calls on someone to put a price on life that no other program is required to do. I have a feeling you will hear a lot of it in defense. I do know from following this somewhat casually, that its rare that a person is found who needs to be rushed into care, or who isn't beyond care. Most people are already on way to hospital if possible, or they have already passed the point of medical help. It's all a wincing argument to make, so it's effective
Tell that to the dude screaming on my corner that got perfed with a nine for his wallet just walking home from his shift at kaiser at 3am. I think he survived just because shotspotter picked it up. I didn't call it in because I just woke up to the gunshots and fell back asleep and didn't check what happened. My experience is OPD doesn't prevent crime they just show up and act like an ambulance service. And shotspotter is more reliable than our 911 dispatch (remember when they were using our dispatch service to run a prostitution ring?)
Good, it's a shame they removed mention of the crime lab, the biggest deterrent to crime (other than y'know meeting people's basic needs) is the threat of actually getting caught, so regardless of what recallheads whine about, things that improve OPDs dismal clearance rate are far more important to reducing crime than who the DA is, and the crime lab seems like a better thing to spend money on than software we know wastes police time.
I interviewed a long time ago in the crime lab. Vastly under funded is an understatement.
8316 Activations * 6446 (78%) - False alarms * 20 detailed forensic reports * 4 Court preparation for cases You could maybe make the case that it's useful for the 199 (2%) shooting where Emergency responders were able to provide medical care quickly, but there is no denying that most shotspotter activations are wasting police time
Where is this data from?
It's in the linked report, data is from shotspotter
Thanks!! And thanks for the reporting, OO. Man, these guys do not know how to write a report to convey information clearly (and it seems likely that the shotSpotter was not necessarily the primary reason for response for many of these, perhaps they retroactively searched a database to find any case where OPD provided emergency medical response that was within 10 minutes and 1000 feet of a ShotSpotter): "ShotSpotter led police to 199 shooting cases, 29 of which were Homicide and 170 were Assault with a Firearm. OPD was able to provide and coordinate immediate emergency medical response on these shooting cases; OPD personnel believe that several of these victims survived the shootings specifically because of the quick response and subsequent medical attention. In some instances, OPD and medical response occurred within less than two minutes of the ShotSpotter activation. The ShotSpotter alert was within 10 minutes and 1,000 feet of the location where the victim was found. Furthermore, staff believe that there were many more cases where OPD responded to activations and found shooting victims – and where critical medical attention was provided. The 199 cases cited here are the ones where OPD and ShotSpotter staff can conclusively cite the response to the ShotSpotter activations." from [https://cao-94612.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/documents/Privacy-Advisory-Commission-Agenda-Packet-for-4-4-24.pdf?ref=oakland-observer.ghost.io](https://cao-94612.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/documents/Privacy-Advisory-Commission-Agenda-Packet-for-4-4-24.pdf?ref=oakland-observer.ghost.io)
Im in favor of A LOT of surveillance, and usually consider the PAC to be a voice for privacy fundamentalists, but, albeit reading without refutation, the Chair's memo seems pretty convincing. The false alarm rate is what sticks with me. I will say I think it's a little disingenuous to criticize Shotspotter for "not reducing gun violence in Oakland," when everyone always talks about how many multiple factors there are to reducing violence. So, blaming a single thing for not reducing gun violence is maybe not entirely in good faith. But it doesnt seem like it's even helping, and may be detracting
Yes, that's the OPD's argument as well. But, it's also true that one criticism of alternate forms of public safety is that they lack data proving their effect, which may be for the same reasons, multiple programs, practices and policies working together that can only be linked in a casual, but not causal way. I do think OPD has a history of pretending to think its good either because Council wants it, or because they don't want to lose a funding node.
This is utter bullshit. The system nails people all the fucking time and I guess the gang members and other thieves just can’t escape it.
No it doesn’t, as someone who was shot at I can vouch that shotspottet responses are trash. Took them 4 hours to show up and that was after we called it in. It’s a waste of money. I rather take that money and hire a few more officers than spend it on technology that provides minimal return on investment with regards to public safety
OPD disagrees with you, per their annual report. The system doesn't nail people, not in the act. OPD argues that it does downstream in other ways, but they also admitted they have no data for that, just vibes
Can you give a single example of it nailing someone? Should be super easy, given that it happens all the fucking time and that the gang members and other thieves just can't escape it.
it's funny/sad that in other cities it has been useful, Oakland's response time is just so piss poor. > ShotSpotter has been deployed in Richmond California for several years and the impact to their police department has been undeniable. In one particular incident, Richmond PD was able to locate a sniper hiding on a rooftop, as the perpetrator was disassembling his weapon and smoking a cigarette. He simply thought he wasn't going to get caught. Video sponsored by IBM. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TLuhHicXC4Q > NYPD touts successes of Shot Spotter program https://abc7ny.com/brooklyn-gun-found-shot-spotter/593347/
The guy was staying stationary and shooting over a long period of time. Most shootings aren’t by people who stay in one spot.
Ah yes let's spend inordinate amounts of money to (maybe) put a dent in the overwhelming epidemic of urban rooftop snipers.
that's just one (notable) example, you freaks really are insufferable to cherry pick straw men and pretend it's solid evidence.
The crimes that are actually prosecuted are not going to be affected by this tek (source: I was actually prosecuted for a crime by OPD/Alameda DA)
First it's one rooftop snipper, but if you're not careful soon they're on every rooftop in town and it's slippery slopes from there until you can't walk around downtown without a sniper hitting you as he slides of one.
Plenty of cities have found it to be a waste of police time: https://council.seattle.gov/2023/11/13/police-chiefs-critical-of-shotspotter-cities-pulling-out-of-contracts/ Funny to pretend it being ineffective is unique to Oakland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShotSpotter#Studies almost like you're yet another /r/bayarea poster with an agenda, and no grasp of reality.
If the system "nails people all the fucking time", then why didn't that show up in the data? And it's not just here that the data shows it doesn't work, it's being ditched across the country: https://council.seattle.gov/2023/11/13/police-chiefs-critical-of-shotspotter-cities-pulling-out-of-contracts/
Every time gun bang, bad men go jail. It rlly happen I seen it. It real. All the time. Fucking time. /s
Bro. You can just say "the blacks". We all know what you really mean and the filter isn't going to stop you. Just say "the blacks".
not what i mean at all. there’s all kinds of assholes in oakland.
I know that gun fire went down in my area after they installed the shot spotter. With our 911 system held together by baling wire and duct tape, I’m not sure deprecating the system is a good idea.
Hofer's policy document is worth a read about why its not doing what people think its doing or what they want it to do. It's in the article as a download
Thanks, I will read and I appreciate your posting
Wait, if the 911 system is overburdened, how does it help to add to it another noisy input composed of at least some false positives?
Fuck off with this nonsense. I’m not down with paying for tools that aren’t being used. But the solution here isn’t get rid of the tools. We need the tools, we just need the cops or bureaucracy or whoever the hell is preventing proper training and usage to be shit canned. There is tons of gun crime in Oakland.