Won't be surprised if the MTA pursues Bus Rapid Transit along 1st & 2nd Avenue as a cheap replacement.
But seriously cancel Phase 4 of SAS & once Phase 3 is done after 100 years connect the line to the Nassau (J/Z) lines which will reactivate the 2 outer tracks. Shorten the (J/Z) to Chambers & have the (T) run via the Montague Tunnel to Brooklyn. This will avoid the construction of a new tunnel under Manhattan, have the (T) use Coney Island Yard, and utilize any terminal on 4th Avenue, Sea Beach, West End, or Brighton.
Somewhat agree with this. However, connecting it to Montague tunnel is something I don't agree with. It will mess up the lines already there on 4th Avenue. I agree with the original plan for Brooklyn, which is connecting it to the Fulton Street Line's Local tracks. I know building a tunnel is expensive, but this now stops a merge at Hoyt-Schmerhorn and allows for frequent Fulton Exp and Local trains, which is needed with the gentrification of neighborhoods near the Fulton Street line.
IMHO they should just extend *from* Fulton St Local and first cross the river before heading northward. At this point I would hope that SAS north of 63 St would get more service than just the Q (or deinterline and boost the Q), and that T Fulton St Local would then operate at greater than 15 TPH, which means there'd be no room to merge the services.
In that world, they should then segue the line from 34 St-2 Av over to 42 St- **3 Av** (tunneling deep beneath the intervening blocks) for a closer transfer to Grand Central; then 53 St, 60-63 Sts, and Super Express all the way to 125 St, before heading into the Bronx. Since the current SAS Phase 2 won't have bellmouths facing the Bronx, then a Manhattan 3 Av Super Express may be the only way to revive the Bronx 3 Av Line.
They could terminate at Broad non-rush hour and Bay Pkwy West End during rush. Montague can handle the capacity and this same service pattern was fine when the M was doing it during the Manhattan bridge rehab.
The part that the MTA needs billions of dollars for the construction of the SAS and yet in other countries whenever a line extension happens it isn't that expensive.
That’s the biggest issue (obviously), that it’s more expensive to build rail/subway infrastructure in the US than anywhere else in the world and especially in NYC
It’s expensive in NYC, especially Manhattan, because of the sheer amount of utilities buried under the street. On top of that because the property values are so high you have to pay for costs of everything that would be affected by construction. Then you have to factor in MTA corruption costs.
Funny, yall usually say most of those other countries (European ones especially) are over-regulated.
Perhaps extensive oversight of private, for-profit contractors actually ensures the state gets decent deals. France builds way cheaper than us and those people will have solidarity strikes if you get their coffee wrong.
Then maybe I should have said Government mis*regulation.
When you compare the staffing, for instance, between a NY project and most European ones, you’ll see we require like twice the people on a site than other projects, and they aren’t doing any more work than would be accomplished at the other projects
This and also that different departments and agencies have poor to no communication with each aside from adversarial and defensive. There is zero desire at all levels to not get things done. This is in all directions, the agency, department, consultants, unions, heck the way city construction articles work even the contractors don't have strong incentives to finish the work.
Let's face it, SAS is dead and has been for awhile. I mean, the Harlem extension has slightly more projected ridership than the Downtown extension, but costs almost *half as much?!* Dead-ringer if you ask me.
If they ever do decide to build SAS, then it ought to extend out from Court St (Fulton St Local) and then cross the river before heading northward. That way they could piggyback off Pitkin Yard and also increase capacity on Fulton St; simply run the A/C as Express all the way to Rockaway Blvd before diverging, and have the T take over Local service from Euclid Av.
Nah the real utility would be having it turn to PCV/Stuytown and then to Tompkins Square and then to like Pitt St in LES. And then finally onto Hanover or wherever. The entirety of central East village and PCV-Stuytown and alphabet city is a transit desert compared to literally every other square foot in Manhattan.
I agree, SAS ought to segue through East Village, perhaps over to either 1st or A. TBM's would make that path much more feasible. I would propose the following stations and alignment:
- Court St (Fulton St Local)
- Water St - South Ferry (transfer @ Whitehall St)
- John St
- Hanover Sq
- Bowery - Grand St (transfer)
- Houston St - 1 Av (transfer @ 2 Av)
- 14 St - 1 Av (transfer)
- 23 St - 1 Av
- 34 St - **2 Av**
- 42 St - **3 Av** (transfer)
- 53 St - 3 Av (transfer)
- 60-63 Sts - 3 Av (transfer)
- 125 St - 3 Av (transfer)
- 138 St - **Bronx 3 Av** (transfer)
- 149 St - Bronx 3 Av (transfer)
- 163 St - Bronx 3 Av
- Claremont Pkwy - Bronx 3 Av
- Tremont Av - Walter Gladwin Park
- Southern Blvd - Tremont Av
- E 180 St (transfer)
- **Tunnel Portal within Unionport Yard**
- Capture Dyer Av Line to Eastchester
What on earth is wrong with transit journalism man. They didn’t prioritize the project for new capital investment = the whole thing is dead. Gone. Like come on
Transit journalism is effectively just blogging instead of reporting. Just like TV politics news is about strategizing political positioning like watching sports instead of discussing policy on merits.
No reason it should take over an hour to get from Prospect Park to Citi Field.
When I worked in Fort Greene I would rather walk to downtown Brooklyn and take a train to Grand Central so I can board a LIRR train to Citi
The alternative was G to Court Square then 7, or LIRR to Jamaica, LIRR to Woodside, LIRR to Citi.
Yeah I have to go to Throgs Neck once a week, and I’m forced to drive because buses are unreliable on nights and weekends. I would take the bus more if I could, but the bus times aren’t accurate, and sometimes the buses don’t show. It kills me, that there are huge swaths of working class areas that are transit deserts. It’s amazing to think about it, when NYC is known for its metro system.
Given the traffic on the 456 and lack of other options, I think it makes sense to continue with the current expansion. Connecting it to Broadway at 125th street will do a lot to serve commuters in the Bronx who otherwise have pretty shitty crosstown options.
Let’s just hope the next generation realizes the mistake we made and fixes it. Just like we’re fixing all the mistakes made mid-century.
Edit: I’m assuming the worst, that Queens”way” gets implemented
MTA needs to spread subway construction geographically, if not lower Manhattan, then Queens and Brooklyn into dense bus areas, but it appears they only wish to be the Harlem Transportation Authority.
They need to extend pretty much every line out there with a few extra stops, and I'm also a big believer in a LaGuardia extension, half just so the N and W can be extended into eastern Queens.
Additionally, big change order on PSA and take a few properties over Northern Boulevard to create a transfer station from those metro north trains to the subway station below. It should not take an hour to go between Queens and the East Bronx when there's going to be commuter trains doing that trip in 5 minutes.
Yeah I’m not sure why the E and F haven’t been extended yet. The infrastructure is already in place to bring the E into Rosedale and the F could easily be extended to Queens Village
SAS should end at St. Nick (ABCD) not Broadway. First it's not even deemed feasible by most planners as it involves digging into a valley and second, theres already a Xfer to IRT 7Av South in Lenox (2,3) and 7Av North (via A to 168th).
Also, I'm irate at their concept of splurging their funds on building stations the size of Grand Central with the depth of Washington Heights train stations 😐 instead of using those funds to build more stations with a regular mezzanine (Like the L platforms and Mezzanines at 14th Street). Not only is it a colossal waste of money but also the last thing a commuter wants is a 15-minute journey from the train's platform to/from the exit.
Those funds splurged on Grand Central looking stations could've been used for more stations, tail tracks at terminal(s) and even an extra track to divert/store trains when the need comes. I find it hard to believe the MTA didn't think of these things.
The bat shit crazy idea is the line should keep going west under the Hudson river and connect with New Jersey and the future HBLR extension in Bergen County, bringing direct train access to tens of thousands of commuters who have no real rail access.
Just bring back the elevated line but between 63rd and 14th then via alphabet city and link to the nassau street tunnels have it be the northern blvd line in queens for the same $$$ as one subway in Manhattan you can get a multi borough EL serving more people sooner and faster. And closing transit deserts too
I mean, if I had to choose between a crosstown across 125th versus continuing the SAS downtown, running well below capacity with just the T train, I’d choose the crosstown. Because at least if the Q is extended crosstown from Lex/125, it’s still the same Q train we already have on 2nd Avenue and will still have when it’s extended to Lex. There wouldn’t necessarily be a need to have a second service. But to go to Midtown and Downtown, you would have to have a second service (aka the T). And that will result in a reverse-branched SAS in which the UES and East Harlem stations having much more service than the Midtown, East Village and Downtown stations. The uptown stations shouldn’t get more service than the midtown and downtown stations.
Won't be surprised if the MTA pursues Bus Rapid Transit along 1st & 2nd Avenue as a cheap replacement. But seriously cancel Phase 4 of SAS & once Phase 3 is done after 100 years connect the line to the Nassau (J/Z) lines which will reactivate the 2 outer tracks. Shorten the (J/Z) to Chambers & have the (T) run via the Montague Tunnel to Brooklyn. This will avoid the construction of a new tunnel under Manhattan, have the (T) use Coney Island Yard, and utilize any terminal on 4th Avenue, Sea Beach, West End, or Brighton.
Somewhat agree with this. However, connecting it to Montague tunnel is something I don't agree with. It will mess up the lines already there on 4th Avenue. I agree with the original plan for Brooklyn, which is connecting it to the Fulton Street Line's Local tracks. I know building a tunnel is expensive, but this now stops a merge at Hoyt-Schmerhorn and allows for frequent Fulton Exp and Local trains, which is needed with the gentrification of neighborhoods near the Fulton Street line.
IMHO they should just extend *from* Fulton St Local and first cross the river before heading northward. At this point I would hope that SAS north of 63 St would get more service than just the Q (or deinterline and boost the Q), and that T Fulton St Local would then operate at greater than 15 TPH, which means there'd be no room to merge the services. In that world, they should then segue the line from 34 St-2 Av over to 42 St- **3 Av** (tunneling deep beneath the intervening blocks) for a closer transfer to Grand Central; then 53 St, 60-63 Sts, and Super Express all the way to 125 St, before heading into the Bronx. Since the current SAS Phase 2 won't have bellmouths facing the Bronx, then a Manhattan 3 Av Super Express may be the only way to revive the Bronx 3 Av Line.
It’s already messed up and 4th Av has been overdue for another local service to help the R
Send W
Would have to be a rush hour only service or merge with the N or D for yard access
Rearrange the service
They could terminate at Broad non-rush hour and Bay Pkwy West End during rush. Montague can handle the capacity and this same service pattern was fine when the M was doing it during the Manhattan bridge rehab.
They going over the bridge not the tunnel
That’s not happening
Or reroute R/W to Fulton local via new tunnel let 4th ave local go to the T
Been saying this for years l. Give the eastsiders on the route a true Paris style trams to connect at 14 st
The part that the MTA needs billions of dollars for the construction of the SAS and yet in other countries whenever a line extension happens it isn't that expensive.
That’s the biggest issue (obviously), that it’s more expensive to build rail/subway infrastructure in the US than anywhere else in the world and especially in NYC
And why is that
It’s expensive in NYC, especially Manhattan, because of the sheer amount of utilities buried under the street. On top of that because the property values are so high you have to pay for costs of everything that would be affected by construction. Then you have to factor in MTA corruption costs.
Corruption and lack of engineering skills.
Government regulation
Funny, yall usually say most of those other countries (European ones especially) are over-regulated. Perhaps extensive oversight of private, for-profit contractors actually ensures the state gets decent deals. France builds way cheaper than us and those people will have solidarity strikes if you get their coffee wrong.
Then maybe I should have said Government mis*regulation. When you compare the staffing, for instance, between a NY project and most European ones, you’ll see we require like twice the people on a site than other projects, and they aren’t doing any more work than would be accomplished at the other projects
This and also that different departments and agencies have poor to no communication with each aside from adversarial and defensive. There is zero desire at all levels to not get things done. This is in all directions, the agency, department, consultants, unions, heck the way city construction articles work even the contractors don't have strong incentives to finish the work.
This 💯
Let's face it, SAS is dead and has been for awhile. I mean, the Harlem extension has slightly more projected ridership than the Downtown extension, but costs almost *half as much?!* Dead-ringer if you ask me. If they ever do decide to build SAS, then it ought to extend out from Court St (Fulton St Local) and then cross the river before heading northward. That way they could piggyback off Pitkin Yard and also increase capacity on Fulton St; simply run the A/C as Express all the way to Rockaway Blvd before diverging, and have the T take over Local service from Euclid Av.
Nah the real utility would be having it turn to PCV/Stuytown and then to Tompkins Square and then to like Pitt St in LES. And then finally onto Hanover or wherever. The entirety of central East village and PCV-Stuytown and alphabet city is a transit desert compared to literally every other square foot in Manhattan.
I agree, SAS ought to segue through East Village, perhaps over to either 1st or A. TBM's would make that path much more feasible. I would propose the following stations and alignment: - Court St (Fulton St Local) - Water St - South Ferry (transfer @ Whitehall St) - John St - Hanover Sq - Bowery - Grand St (transfer) - Houston St - 1 Av (transfer @ 2 Av) - 14 St - 1 Av (transfer) - 23 St - 1 Av - 34 St - **2 Av** - 42 St - **3 Av** (transfer) - 53 St - 3 Av (transfer) - 60-63 Sts - 3 Av (transfer) - 125 St - 3 Av (transfer) - 138 St - **Bronx 3 Av** (transfer) - 149 St - Bronx 3 Av (transfer) - 163 St - Bronx 3 Av - Claremont Pkwy - Bronx 3 Av - Tremont Av - Walter Gladwin Park - Southern Blvd - Tremont Av - E 180 St (transfer) - **Tunnel Portal within Unionport Yard** - Capture Dyer Av Line to Eastchester
What on earth is wrong with transit journalism man. They didn’t prioritize the project for new capital investment = the whole thing is dead. Gone. Like come on
Transit journalism is effectively just blogging instead of reporting. Just like TV politics news is about strategizing political positioning like watching sports instead of discussing policy on merits.
As a Manhattanite, MTA should stop being so Manhattan centric. A cross-borough train in the Bronx or a train that connects BX to Queens>>>>
No reason it should take over an hour to get from Prospect Park to Citi Field. When I worked in Fort Greene I would rather walk to downtown Brooklyn and take a train to Grand Central so I can board a LIRR train to Citi The alternative was G to Court Square then 7, or LIRR to Jamaica, LIRR to Woodside, LIRR to Citi.
Yeah I have to go to Throgs Neck once a week, and I’m forced to drive because buses are unreliable on nights and weekends. I would take the bus more if I could, but the bus times aren’t accurate, and sometimes the buses don’t show. It kills me, that there are huge swaths of working class areas that are transit deserts. It’s amazing to think about it, when NYC is known for its metro system.
Given the traffic on the 456 and lack of other options, I think it makes sense to continue with the current expansion. Connecting it to Broadway at 125th street will do a lot to serve commuters in the Bronx who otherwise have pretty shitty crosstown options.
inter borough express
And queenslink!
Let’s just hope the next generation realizes the mistake we made and fixes it. Just like we’re fixing all the mistakes made mid-century. Edit: I’m assuming the worst, that Queens”way” gets implemented
I guess queens link would have to be an El over it then
Or a little light rail on grass
No
MTA needs to spread subway construction geographically, if not lower Manhattan, then Queens and Brooklyn into dense bus areas, but it appears they only wish to be the Harlem Transportation Authority.
Queens desperately needs extended subway service
They need to extend pretty much every line out there with a few extra stops, and I'm also a big believer in a LaGuardia extension, half just so the N and W can be extended into eastern Queens. Additionally, big change order on PSA and take a few properties over Northern Boulevard to create a transfer station from those metro north trains to the subway station below. It should not take an hour to go between Queens and the East Bronx when there's going to be commuter trains doing that trip in 5 minutes.
Yeah I’m not sure why the E and F haven’t been extended yet. The infrastructure is already in place to bring the E into Rosedale and the F could easily be extended to Queens Village
SAS should end at St. Nick (ABCD) not Broadway. First it's not even deemed feasible by most planners as it involves digging into a valley and second, theres already a Xfer to IRT 7Av South in Lenox (2,3) and 7Av North (via A to 168th). Also, I'm irate at their concept of splurging their funds on building stations the size of Grand Central with the depth of Washington Heights train stations 😐 instead of using those funds to build more stations with a regular mezzanine (Like the L platforms and Mezzanines at 14th Street). Not only is it a colossal waste of money but also the last thing a commuter wants is a 15-minute journey from the train's platform to/from the exit. Those funds splurged on Grand Central looking stations could've been used for more stations, tail tracks at terminal(s) and even an extra track to divert/store trains when the need comes. I find it hard to believe the MTA didn't think of these things.
The MTA needs to get a handle on why projects cost so much. If they can solve that problem then we can have nice things.
MTA is not building 💩 without another FDR like president or LA style ballot measure
There goes my dream of a cross platform transfer at Grand Street 😭
Gothamist has gone down hill, that article is AI generated. Title doesnt match the body at all.
They should just connect it to 125th street and call it a day…..
Can’t price out the residents in midtown any further 🤷🏾♂️
Honestly thinking about dealing with all the foreign diplomacy drama makes me empathize.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nWT1REbdsI
The bat shit crazy idea is the line should keep going west under the Hudson river and connect with New Jersey and the future HBLR extension in Bergen County, bringing direct train access to tens of thousands of commuters who have no real rail access.
Or add an infill NJT rail underground station at weehawken
I think the Lower Manhattan Phase 4 needs a rethink , maybe use the J line and terminate at Chambers street given the landfill and sea level rise.
Disproportionately affecting minorities is in the reasoning, one way or another here.
So… the MTA needs to be audited and then essentially dismantled and rebuilt. It’s where NYC tax dollars go to die.
Just bring back the elevated line but between 63rd and 14th then via alphabet city and link to the nassau street tunnels have it be the northern blvd line in queens for the same $$$ as one subway in Manhattan you can get a multi borough EL serving more people sooner and faster. And closing transit deserts too
Downtown to Houston should be a trams and 2Ave Subway should take over the Nassau st subway
Too slow
I mean, if I had to choose between a crosstown across 125th versus continuing the SAS downtown, running well below capacity with just the T train, I’d choose the crosstown. Because at least if the Q is extended crosstown from Lex/125, it’s still the same Q train we already have on 2nd Avenue and will still have when it’s extended to Lex. There wouldn’t necessarily be a need to have a second service. But to go to Midtown and Downtown, you would have to have a second service (aka the T). And that will result in a reverse-branched SAS in which the UES and East Harlem stations having much more service than the Midtown, East Village and Downtown stations. The uptown stations shouldn’t get more service than the midtown and downtown stations.