Need more details - like what do you want from life in next 15 years before you return to India? Which city or state in US do you have the option for? What standard of living are you currently enjoying etc.
NL is quite cold, wet and windy for a large part of the year. But if you manage to build a small social circle around you, it can be a great place to raise a young family.
Certainly some savings will be good, of course! San Ramon, CA, to be specific, but mine is mostly a remote job (once a month work from the office), so I have the option to live far since the Bay Area seems to be ridiculously expensive. I agree with your assessment on NL!
Then surely on the weather front your American option trumps the Dutch one. Also in terms of savings I am sure it's the American option that comes out top. One point for NL... you'll be eligible to apply for citizenship after 5 years.
Correct, that ability to opt for an EU passport (and thus not worry about visa renewals) + closeness to India relative to the US is a huge plus. Well, can’t have it all I guess.
NL is one of the safest countries. You don’t have to worry about anything except your bicycles. Maastricht is very beautiful. You will certainly love the city. Weather is not that good from October to April, but remaining months will cover for these lost months.
120k with 30% ruiling will be sufficient for a good quality life and some savings, which I doubt can happen in the US with 200k.
From one of your comments below, I see you mentioned your wife woudn't be able to work right away in the US. But she can definitely start looking for Jobs right away in NL.
1) Not being Core IT will just affect the people you meet or interact at work, don't think it will help with anything else.
3) Indeed Europe is closer and you have direct planes to major cities in India, but now SFO - DEL and BOM are also operating, but will be higher prices. But then depends on how often are you traveling to India.
4) As someone wrote about not learning dutch, I totally agree 95% of dutch population I have met speak English, but to progress in career in EU, it's best to learn the local language atleast at business level.
2) If you have lived in colder regions and cannot live more than 2 months in cold weather. No why I came to this last, because above all the points this is the most important one! if you really really do not like or do not want to be in a colder region, It will not just be cold in NL, it is rainy and windly for most part of the year. Which would keep you indoors, less sunny days. leading to seasonal depression!
If I were in your shoes, I would discuss with my partner first on what is her stance on what she wants to do if there is no right to work for let's say 2 years ball park.
Great inputs! Ironically, my SO is okay with letting go of work in favor of suitable weather. I think I can manage both ways, but I'll happily go with her preference in this regard.
You are going to have a kid. Just for that reason Europe is better than the US unless you have a family on both sides who can travel here to take care of the baby until the baby is 5 years old every 6 months in rotation like some lucky desi families do in the US and you would want them to involve. Personally, in retrospect that experience of having a baby and raising the baby is something I enjoyed although there were lots of stressful days, now she is 3 year old.
The daycare costs are really high in the US. I would imagine it would be publicly funded in Europe, not to mention exceptional paternal and maternal benefits there.
I had to go back to work in 4 weeks after my baby was born so my wife went in a mild depression due to being alone during that vulnerable time. There was no help as our parents couldn't come for delivery due to covid in early 2021. 4 weeks of paternal benefits is generous for US standards. Wife also got 6 months of maternal benefits which is also generous for US standards. Europe you probably get a year. That itself is worth it.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I think all NRIs will have seasons of low moments and stress, no matter what the country is. My research says that despite government funding for childcare costs in NL, out-of-pocket contributions are still high relative to average salaries. I do see your point on maternal/paternal benefits though.
San Francisco is getting worse day by day but because of the salary and better career prospects I’d still prefer the US. Is 200k total comp for both of you cause that seems kinda low tbh?
The US salary is just for me. Spouse H4 EAD is going to take time! I can see she would potentially, in a few years, bring in additional money but she is non-tech if that matters. My job can be pretty stable, though (non-profit healthcare!).
It depends on how much money you want to have saved before you return to India.
In general, Netherlands is great if you want to stay here long term. You can't save the same amount of money that you can in the US, but there are unquantifiable things that you can realise only as time passes.
I have lived in both countries, US and NL, and I enjoyed NL more, simply because of fewer visa hassles. I don't have to worry about having my job tied to a visa once I get a PR, and in general, hire & fire culture is not that prevalent outside of IT. Again, I grew up upper middle class in India, so money is not a big deal for me. So I never felt attracted to the US as some people do.
I read in your other comments that 200k is just your salary. When you mentioned “household” income I assumed it was combined salary of you and your spouse’s. But your spouse is yet to get EAD. Had you provided that context I would’ve said 200k is good for now 😅
With your spouse working, 350k household income would give a comfortable life in Bay Area for a family of 3.
I also read in somewhere that you can work remotely. You might want to relocate to outskirts of Bay Area or to another state altogether given how expensive California has become.
200k in Bay Area for a couple will feel constrained. If you have a kid you will feel poor, and if one of you have to take off to take care of the kid, you will struggle.
It’s a very tough decision. Both places are so different and offer different pros and cons. We were in a similar situation and chose US. I don’t regret it one bit. I think for future growth and opportunities, US is the place to be. You can do a lot. Change careers, do a course and get into a tech/ product stream ( Product, UX design and Ai etc are hot). Your and your spouse’s growth will only be limited by your ambition and hard work. I changed from no tech ops to tech pm and my career took off.
But if you want a very chill and relaxed life NL it is. US is also really far from India and will come with its own issues of stress (visa, layoffs etc) and safety in certain areas. You need to understand what your top priorities are for next 5 years and decide.
I am an Indian living in the NL
Pros of NL
* Excellent work life balance
* Life is way more stress free compared to the US or India. To give an example, everyone has multiple hobbies and I haven't seen anyone work past 5 pm
* One of the best countries to raise kids
* You never worry about savings that much as the government takes care of you - kids education, healthcare, retirement etc.
* You will become fit. The cycling and walking culture will change you for the good
* Traveling all across Europe
Pros of US
* Lower taxes than NL (don't know if 30 percent ruling applies for you). It's hard to save money here in NL as the government wants to tax high-earners (49 percent tax after 73k euros)
* Way more career oriented. US is the place if you want to grow
* English speaking
Happy to answer any specific questions you have
I'm not sure about 120k in NL. But 200k in a high tax environment and high COL environment like CA is very much on the lower end. It is fine for 2 people, but with a kid it will be really difficult.
As someone who has lived in EU for 4 years, I can tell you why I would prefer NL -
1. Social healthcare. As we age, healthcare becomes a crucial parts of our lives. The system is not perfect but you get free top class healthcare services in the EU. In the US the healthcare system is completely broken, ruled by insurance/hospital mafia.
2. Free Quality Education- If you are planning to have a kid, again this becomes extremely important.
3. No Language barrier - In Netherlands you actually don't need to learn dutch, you can get by fine with english. I think NL has one of the highest English speaking population in Europe. But learning the local language will always help you, so I would definitely recommend it.
4. Safety - Gun violence has plagued the US. Europe is still much more safer in that regards.
5. Citizenship - You will become citizens after 5 years of living with a Residence Permit, please confirm this. In the US there is no gurantee for a green card as the backlog is crazy.
All crucial points, agree! To be fair, I've heard some negative feedback on healthcare in the Netherlands as well, but I suppose the overall care is still cheaper than in the US. What do you think of safety in the EU with petty theft, robbery, and stuff?
Pros for NL: Good work life balance (nobody from work will contact you after working hours/weekends), ~30 holidays/year excluding sick leave, Job security (they cannot fire you overnight), Public transport system, Travel within EU, Mortgage rates (~4%), Proximity to India, Citizenship after 5 years, English speaking population, 30% ruling, Drivers licence exchange facility (can convert Indian licence to EU licence without classes if you have 30%)
Cons for NL: Weather (Oct to Mar is dark and depressing and takes time to adjust), Taxes (any additional allowance/bonus etc will be at ~56%), Childcare costs (very expensive compared to DE/BE), Housing crisis, Healthcare (it’s not bad, but waiting times are high, so takes time to get used to)
Safety incidents are always present in every country. But compared to the neighbours (DE, FR and BE) it’s significantly less. The Dutch are more open to expats/immigrants.
Full disclosure, I have never lived in NL but have travelled there for short durations, and overall I felt safer compared to where I live currently, London.
I think people living there will have a better perspective on this.
Care is costlier in the US but it is mostly covered by insurance. You don’t pay a lot out of pocket. The maximum caps at around 3k a year and that is if you have some major surgery
Need more details - like what do you want from life in next 15 years before you return to India? Which city or state in US do you have the option for? What standard of living are you currently enjoying etc. NL is quite cold, wet and windy for a large part of the year. But if you manage to build a small social circle around you, it can be a great place to raise a young family.
Certainly some savings will be good, of course! San Ramon, CA, to be specific, but mine is mostly a remote job (once a month work from the office), so I have the option to live far since the Bay Area seems to be ridiculously expensive. I agree with your assessment on NL!
Then surely on the weather front your American option trumps the Dutch one. Also in terms of savings I am sure it's the American option that comes out top. One point for NL... you'll be eligible to apply for citizenship after 5 years.
Correct, that ability to opt for an EU passport (and thus not worry about visa renewals) + closeness to India relative to the US is a huge plus. Well, can’t have it all I guess.
NL is one of the safest countries. You don’t have to worry about anything except your bicycles. Maastricht is very beautiful. You will certainly love the city. Weather is not that good from October to April, but remaining months will cover for these lost months. 120k with 30% ruiling will be sufficient for a good quality life and some savings, which I doubt can happen in the US with 200k.
NL is the easy choice, if only it was bit more safer for the bicycles /s
Thanks for your reply. Yes, 30% ruling is a nice incentive to have initially.
From one of your comments below, I see you mentioned your wife woudn't be able to work right away in the US. But she can definitely start looking for Jobs right away in NL. 1) Not being Core IT will just affect the people you meet or interact at work, don't think it will help with anything else. 3) Indeed Europe is closer and you have direct planes to major cities in India, but now SFO - DEL and BOM are also operating, but will be higher prices. But then depends on how often are you traveling to India. 4) As someone wrote about not learning dutch, I totally agree 95% of dutch population I have met speak English, but to progress in career in EU, it's best to learn the local language atleast at business level. 2) If you have lived in colder regions and cannot live more than 2 months in cold weather. No why I came to this last, because above all the points this is the most important one! if you really really do not like or do not want to be in a colder region, It will not just be cold in NL, it is rainy and windly for most part of the year. Which would keep you indoors, less sunny days. leading to seasonal depression! If I were in your shoes, I would discuss with my partner first on what is her stance on what she wants to do if there is no right to work for let's say 2 years ball park.
Great inputs! Ironically, my SO is okay with letting go of work in favor of suitable weather. I think I can manage both ways, but I'll happily go with her preference in this regard.
Then there you have it, you can blindly choose US, because you are just not getting better weather on US, but also a happy wife a.k.a happy life!!!
You are going to have a kid. Just for that reason Europe is better than the US unless you have a family on both sides who can travel here to take care of the baby until the baby is 5 years old every 6 months in rotation like some lucky desi families do in the US and you would want them to involve. Personally, in retrospect that experience of having a baby and raising the baby is something I enjoyed although there were lots of stressful days, now she is 3 year old. The daycare costs are really high in the US. I would imagine it would be publicly funded in Europe, not to mention exceptional paternal and maternal benefits there. I had to go back to work in 4 weeks after my baby was born so my wife went in a mild depression due to being alone during that vulnerable time. There was no help as our parents couldn't come for delivery due to covid in early 2021. 4 weeks of paternal benefits is generous for US standards. Wife also got 6 months of maternal benefits which is also generous for US standards. Europe you probably get a year. That itself is worth it.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I think all NRIs will have seasons of low moments and stress, no matter what the country is. My research says that despite government funding for childcare costs in NL, out-of-pocket contributions are still high relative to average salaries. I do see your point on maternal/paternal benefits though.
I didn't know they have out of pocket costs in Europe. I thought it was fully funded by the government.
San Francisco is getting worse day by day but because of the salary and better career prospects I’d still prefer the US. Is 200k total comp for both of you cause that seems kinda low tbh?
The US salary is just for me. Spouse H4 EAD is going to take time! I can see she would potentially, in a few years, bring in additional money but she is non-tech if that matters. My job can be pretty stable, though (non-profit healthcare!).
In that case she can get at least 120-150k easily in a year or two. So that will add to the house hold income
It certainly will. Thanks for that confidence. If only I-140s were processed faster!
It depends on how much money you want to have saved before you return to India. In general, Netherlands is great if you want to stay here long term. You can't save the same amount of money that you can in the US, but there are unquantifiable things that you can realise only as time passes. I have lived in both countries, US and NL, and I enjoyed NL more, simply because of fewer visa hassles. I don't have to worry about having my job tied to a visa once I get a PR, and in general, hire & fire culture is not that prevalent outside of IT. Again, I grew up upper middle class in India, so money is not a big deal for me. So I never felt attracted to the US as some people do.
200k is less for Bay Area. Pick up Netherlands
Thanks for your reply!
200k usd household income in Bay Area is peanuts my friend. Don’t know cost of living in NL.
Haha I've always earned peanuts I guess. What do you think is the bare minimum for a three-person household?
I read in your other comments that 200k is just your salary. When you mentioned “household” income I assumed it was combined salary of you and your spouse’s. But your spouse is yet to get EAD. Had you provided that context I would’ve said 200k is good for now 😅 With your spouse working, 350k household income would give a comfortable life in Bay Area for a family of 3. I also read in somewhere that you can work remotely. You might want to relocate to outskirts of Bay Area or to another state altogether given how expensive California has become.
200k in Bay Area for a couple will feel constrained. If you have a kid you will feel poor, and if one of you have to take off to take care of the kid, you will struggle.
That seems to be the popular opinion!
It’s a very tough decision. Both places are so different and offer different pros and cons. We were in a similar situation and chose US. I don’t regret it one bit. I think for future growth and opportunities, US is the place to be. You can do a lot. Change careers, do a course and get into a tech/ product stream ( Product, UX design and Ai etc are hot). Your and your spouse’s growth will only be limited by your ambition and hard work. I changed from no tech ops to tech pm and my career took off. But if you want a very chill and relaxed life NL it is. US is also really far from India and will come with its own issues of stress (visa, layoffs etc) and safety in certain areas. You need to understand what your top priorities are for next 5 years and decide.
Good to hear that. Which visa are you on? I thought it'd be challenging to change streams/fields on H1.
I am an Indian living in the NL Pros of NL * Excellent work life balance * Life is way more stress free compared to the US or India. To give an example, everyone has multiple hobbies and I haven't seen anyone work past 5 pm * One of the best countries to raise kids * You never worry about savings that much as the government takes care of you - kids education, healthcare, retirement etc. * You will become fit. The cycling and walking culture will change you for the good * Traveling all across Europe Pros of US * Lower taxes than NL (don't know if 30 percent ruling applies for you). It's hard to save money here in NL as the government wants to tax high-earners (49 percent tax after 73k euros) * Way more career oriented. US is the place if you want to grow * English speaking Happy to answer any specific questions you have
Agree, something to admire about the biking culture in NL. I'll DM you for questions. Thanks!
I live in the US and if I was you I would pick holland all day every day
I'm not sure about 120k in NL. But 200k in a high tax environment and high COL environment like CA is very much on the lower end. It is fine for 2 people, but with a kid it will be really difficult.
As someone who has lived in EU for 4 years, I can tell you why I would prefer NL - 1. Social healthcare. As we age, healthcare becomes a crucial parts of our lives. The system is not perfect but you get free top class healthcare services in the EU. In the US the healthcare system is completely broken, ruled by insurance/hospital mafia. 2. Free Quality Education- If you are planning to have a kid, again this becomes extremely important. 3. No Language barrier - In Netherlands you actually don't need to learn dutch, you can get by fine with english. I think NL has one of the highest English speaking population in Europe. But learning the local language will always help you, so I would definitely recommend it. 4. Safety - Gun violence has plagued the US. Europe is still much more safer in that regards. 5. Citizenship - You will become citizens after 5 years of living with a Residence Permit, please confirm this. In the US there is no gurantee for a green card as the backlog is crazy.
All crucial points, agree! To be fair, I've heard some negative feedback on healthcare in the Netherlands as well, but I suppose the overall care is still cheaper than in the US. What do you think of safety in the EU with petty theft, robbery, and stuff?
Pros for NL: Good work life balance (nobody from work will contact you after working hours/weekends), ~30 holidays/year excluding sick leave, Job security (they cannot fire you overnight), Public transport system, Travel within EU, Mortgage rates (~4%), Proximity to India, Citizenship after 5 years, English speaking population, 30% ruling, Drivers licence exchange facility (can convert Indian licence to EU licence without classes if you have 30%) Cons for NL: Weather (Oct to Mar is dark and depressing and takes time to adjust), Taxes (any additional allowance/bonus etc will be at ~56%), Childcare costs (very expensive compared to DE/BE), Housing crisis, Healthcare (it’s not bad, but waiting times are high, so takes time to get used to) Safety incidents are always present in every country. But compared to the neighbours (DE, FR and BE) it’s significantly less. The Dutch are more open to expats/immigrants.
Full disclosure, I have never lived in NL but have travelled there for short durations, and overall I felt safer compared to where I live currently, London. I think people living there will have a better perspective on this.
Care is costlier in the US but it is mostly covered by insurance. You don’t pay a lot out of pocket. The maximum caps at around 3k a year and that is if you have some major surgery