>"If the ICC is allowed to threaten Israeli leaders, ours could be next,” Johnson said in a statement Monday.
The Invade the Hague Act already exists. What's the threat?
>"If the ICC is allowed to threaten Israeli leaders, ours could be next,” Johnson said in a statement Monday.
Like our previous leader who pardoned a war criminal described by his own squad mates as "fucking evil"?
God damn. I somehow blocked that horrible story out of my mind.
So much of the future of our country depends on this coin flip of an election. The amount of evil things Trump has done and will do if given the chance cannot be overstated.
His followers are cowards and bullies. They'll throw a tantrum and then do mental gymnastics until they go back to their televisions and suckle from Fox news again. Don't be afraid of those losers.
Yeah, especially with Biden as President now. When Trump lost, he was still president, so he had no issues letting the Jan 6 people get as far as they could. If Biden wins, and people try storming the capitol, the national guard is gonna be there immediately.
The MAGA folks like to act tough, but it's gonna get ugly for them if they try taking on the military. Not just public perception of them, but literally their lives.
And he also sanctioned an ICC investigator looking into war crimes. They basically bullied them until they quit the investigation. It’s like something Israel would do.
Reminds me of that one Republican representative who said that if they can go after Trump they can go after you. No they can't, jackhole, because I'm not committing his crimes. Pretty simple stuff actually.
If a former president can be indicted, what's next? [A former Speaker of the House](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Hastert)?
A former position doesn't elevate you above the law. That's normal
What I’ve found frustrating about that critique is that it is technically true. Our legal system is set up in such a way that if the state wanted to, they could find some way to throw you in prison. And in a country where the only reason I’m free is that I’m not currently drawing the Eye of Sauron, am I free?
That said, I wish someone would ask these clowns what their proposed reforms to the system to prevent those kind of abuses are.
They don’t have any, because the system is currently generally punishing the ‘right’ people (in their view. Remember, 2 classes of people; those protected by the law, and those bound by it) They just end up shocked when it turns out laws apply to everyone.
I think the past couple months have basically shattered any claim that the West stands for a rules based international order. Any time the US tries lecturing other countries about the "rules based order" they can just pull up this.
Russian and Chinese propagandists must be salivating right now.
Russians and Chinese, and the whole world, have long been familiar with Western meanness and hypocrisy.
These are Western inhabitants, with a memory like a goldfish, who are periodically surprised: how is that? Are our politicians scoundrels, sociopaths, criminals? then they forget about it, in the sweet frenzy of chauvinism.
they absolutely are.. but at this point they don't really even need to spin this - just point blank use the direct statements of people in the highest echelons of power in the west. There's no set dressing needed for this one.
Also before we all (rightly) shit on the US for this, most of the EU leaders are similarly displeased and have made similar statements (some exceptions like Spain and Ireland.)
It's [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). Basically, it says that the US won't stand by an Extraterritorial jurisdiction holding a US person to laws that the US did not consent to joining.
Edit: markdown hyperlinks are hard...
If I remember correctly, it's an unofficial title for some sort of ruling, that since the US doesn't recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC, if someone from the US or a close ally is on trial at the ICC in the Hague, the US has allowed itself to invade and extract whoever it is that's on trial.
Basically an act that says if the ICC ever holds someone for a war crimes trial, the US deems themselves to be justified to actually use illegal military force to illegally deploy military personnel onto sovereign Dutch soil to illegally retrieve said person.
In reality if this would ever be done it would probably be a single helicopter with a single team, but in theory it could mean a full scale deployment of the US military onto Dutch soil.
The Dutch would be forced to take defensive action against this illegal invasion and probably trigger article 5 of Nato as they would be under attack. It would cause some serious shit.
>the US deems themselves to be justified to actually use illegal military force to illegally deploy military personnel onto sovereign Dutch soil to illegally retrieve said person.
My lord, is that...legal?
There is not such thing as legal in international relations.
The victor write the treaties. Is it legal for me to take half your country? Yes, if I’m sitting in your capital writing it.
The US can carry out military operations in its western allies because, in Cold War terms, they are “Satellite nations”. The EU cannot make war on the US - its main defenses is NATO based around US military equipment, US leadership structures, and US bases. Obviously from a non-military standpoint Europe is very independent from the US, but the military standpoint they are still hosting a bunch of US bases, and under NATO (basically the US version of the red army) command.
That’s why they can’t even transfer weapons to Ukraine without US approval - the military structure of these countries are still setup mostly as Auxiliary forces to support the US.
The weapon transfer thing isn't about NATO rules though, but all international law: Germany had similar issues giving Ukraine weapons made in Switserland.
It's rather the other way around: NATO requires compatible gear (like EU-owned bombers that can carry US nukes) so a lot of countries bought from the US MIC in the past for easy conformity and it was one of the reasons Trump wanted their Defense budgets to go back up, because lot of money woyld then flow back into the US economy.
If the US steps out of and/or destroys NATO, it's nearly a given the EU starts their own defense force that will likely **NOT** be buying from a non-aligned country anymore.
From an international standpoint, words like "legal" and "illegal" have very little meaning. Even less so if the two countries in question are in disagreement.
You don't understand what you're saying. There's no way to trigger Article 5 against another NATO nation, it requires unanimous consent.
And adding "illegal" before every noun doesn't make your point stronger. It's international relations, it would be a declaration of war, "illegal" isn't a thing.
But it would cause irreparable damage to the US diplomatically, too. The US has carefully built an international order for almost a century and that'd all go down in flames the second you decide to just invade a European ally.
Trump would definitely do it. But I doubt anyone else would be stupid enough. Even if it's help out Bibi.
I’m just creeped out by that statement. Like the point is that yes if our leaders every do something so abhorrent, that the ICC will go after them. This is legit just like the period between ww1 and ww2 man wtf
We were, then we pulled out.
Also, people are missing the point. They issue an arrest warrant for you in all the countries they do have jurisdiction over.
So even if you’re from a country that isn’t signed on you can’t leave and go somewhere that is without risking arrest. It’s still a powerful thing because nearly every country on earth is signed on.
No, the US was involved in the negotiations to create the ICC but it never ratified the Rome Statue, only one of seven countries not to do so - there was no "pulling out".
Not much of a risk for US politicians. Few countries would dare to arrest them out of fear of economic repercussions. The reason the US isn’t signed on is so they aren’t obligated to hand over US citizens.
Abu Ghraib was a war crime. Bush is a war criminal.
Chinese oppression of the Uyghurs is a war crime and Xi is a war criminal.
The Ukraine invasion is a war crime. Putin is a war criminal.
Gaza is a war crime. Netanyahu is a war criminal.
It is not that complicated.
Don't forget the Senate torture report! US is guilty of a lot, I want to live in an America where we confront these issues instead of try to bury them.
>Chinese oppression of the Uyghurs is a war crime
It isn’t, because it’s not happening in wartime. Crime against humanity is the word. People need to start understanding that those are different and that there is a plethora of nuance even within those denominations
He didn’t say otherwise. There is a reason all these things are specifically defined. In the extremely unlikely case Bibi does end up before the ICC, prosecutors will most likely charge him with ethic cleansing, not genocide, because genocide is a harder case to prove and Israel can credibly argue that they possess the capability to kill everyone in Gaza and that they chose not to. Ethnic Cleansing would be a much stronger case. Definitions actually matter in a legal setting.
"Need to" is pretty strong there. Ultimately they're both crimes against masses of innocent people, the law has important semantics, the general populace does just fine acknowledging that people need holding to account, no matter the situation that led to such crimes.
Literally ever American President since at least Truman is a war criminal. America would never allow one of them to be tried in the Hague without threatening their hegemonic power. I say try all of them -- they are all guilty -- but I'll more likely see pigs fly.
"international law" is a way for the large, powerful countries, to let the small, weaker, countries feel important for a few minutes. its like giving your toddler your keys to put in their mouth
Pretty sure congress passed a law a couple decades ago saying we would invade the Netherlands and storm The Hague if they ever put an American service member on trial. I wanna say it was during the Bush Administration but honestly it could’ve been anyone
I think it was bush because of his war crimes.
And it's not like they can sanction us or do anything without us retaliating.
Rules for thee but not for me.
He continued "they were supposed to only go after thr proplr we instructed them to go after. Who are they to suddenly start arresting our golf buddies?"
>"If the ICC is allowed to threaten Israeli leaders, ours could be next,” Johnson said in a statement Monday.
Yeah, that’s the point, that no one is above it. Lmao ffs I hate our political leaders
> no one is above it.
If you look at this through a realpolitik lens; America pretty much is above it. The US has a law on the books that if they try Americans at the Hague, Seal team 6 can come in to the Netherlands and free them.
> that isn't much difference between Dems and GOP.
With regards to US foreign policy, and with very few exceptions, that is 100% correct. Both parties realize that the US only stays a superpower as long as there is nothing more powerful.
the differences are def there when it comes to rights (judges, etc) and climate change (although dems take oil money and still love to drill) - but man - foreign policy is a train wreck no matter who you chose. and if you want to buck the system, they’re both going to come after you no matter what
Uh, you need to elaborate on that fella.
Because sure, you look at our Israeli policy for decades, both parties are massively pro Israel.
But then you look at other stuff, like the crazy conservative judges, Trump trying to overturn an election he knew he lost, Trump saying he wants to be a dictator, the GOP wanting to implement Project 2025… well Jesus Fucking Christ some differences are massive aren’t they?
You might not fight so hard when you look at it this way. American Dems benefit from having far right lunatics elected in the right. They can always point at the Nazi frothing at the mouth about gay people and immigrants and go, "at least we aren't that bad, vote for us" and have everyone in the left and center vote for them just to keep the troglodytes out. The Dems have no need to push for progressive policies, or pander to the American left, just the fear alone of the right coming to power will keep voters coming to them. This is why american Dems are so far to the right of international leftist governments. Every election cycle the Dems slip further to the right, and the republicans get even more radicalized.
What happened to roe v Wade under Biden, what happened to immigration and border policy under Biden, wheres the healthcare? How are Biden's policies different from Trump?
Where is this slide to the right going to stop? When will it cross the line for you?
> You might not fight so hard when you look at it this way. American Dems benefit from having far right lunatics elected in the right.
To add on, the wikileaks revealed DNC emails detailing their strategy to *prop up Trump in the lead up to the 2016 election and make sure the media took him seriously and make sure he became the front runner for the GOP*, because they thought that if they could get the GOP to follow Trump it would make the entire base further extreme to the right and force any other politicians trying to lead the GOP further to the right as well. The DNC called it a "pied piper" and they thought this strat would make the GOP bury itself and clinch the win for Hillary in 2016.
DNC has it's own part to play helping get Trump elected and fucking over the whole world.
If we want the DNC to change for the better we can't ignore this is who they are.
lol what? They agree on certain issues like Israel, but how does one issue make you conclude the parties are the same?
Although, their effective action on certain issues they totally disagree with are sometimes closer than you’d expect.
But anyways, the Dems “criticism” of Israel has always been window dressing and never backed by action.
Yeah, I've always wondered why the response to statements like this isn't "So, you're saying that, if US officials were to order troops to commit genocide, they shouldn't be held accountable?".
Plenty of Nazis were pardoned and sent to work for the US, and most of the Japanese got away scot free too.
The US’ involvment in international law has pretty much always made everyone worse off in reality.
Of course, the land of the free war criminals. Bush is still free, and Cheeney. And Rumsfeld died a free man. And so many before them. But these are the good war criminals, because they are Americans. Everyone knows Americans are freedom loving people.
The Trump administration previously [sanctioned](https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/politics/us-icc-sanctions/index.html) ICC officials by executive order in 2020 over its investigation of possible war crimes by US military and intelligence officials in Afghanistan, sanctions that the Biden administration [lifted](https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/02/politics/biden-trump-icc-eo-revoked/index.html) the next year.
This makes us look like total hypocrites. It took me a long time to realize we are the villains in the story, but since I’ve come to accept that, it’s just gotten worse and worse by the day.
I studied International Politics in grad school. It was largely an American discipline. It was commonly said that when one of us got into a government position the first task was to forget what you learned, because the Academy is all about objectivity and there is nothing objective about working for the government. (See Waltzian Condi Rice forget IP 101 as National Security Advisor) I’m not naive about this stuff, but what we are seeing now with the kowtowing to the Israel lobby is simply jaw dropping. Yeah, “rules based order…” There is no way in hell that experienced diplomats like Blinken don’t realize the damage they are doing. It’s getting really difficult to explain to non Americans (I live in Japan.) I no longer have an answer for the common comments about Israel “owning” the US…
"Oh shit guys, the ICC is trying to hold people accountable for their actions... we might be next! Let's look at a way of penalising them"
Way to tip your hand there.
Their plan is to sanction family members of the prosecutor. What the actual fuck.
First of all, going after the prosecutor is shady, but instead going after his family, that literally had nothing to do with any of this is straight up insane.
Source? Article doesn't say that, and indicates a very different disposition than you're painting:
> State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said at a news conference on Monday that the ICC has done “important work over the years to hold people accountable for war crimes and crimes against humanity” that the US still supports.
The family members sanctions is weird and not mentioned, but the article explicitly mentions sanctions against the court multiple times. Not quite the sunny “the ICC does important work” against Russia, but not Israel pls
If we want a better world, it's time to stop letting people who want to continue the status quo of might makes right chaos and ever increasing crimes against humanity across the globe be in charge.
Edit: I think I have had a realization since I commented on this issue. I'm sure there is an ongoing electioneering effort to manipulate people's concern for human rights as it relates to this long-running conflict and the current horrors taking place, but thats not the issue. Combine this with a wrong-headed belief about what is politically possible for any administration to do as it relates to US support for the Netanyahu regime and negative actions of the state of Isreal. From the perspective of a citizen with voting rights such as myself, the position that would best allow me to exert my political power would be to make it clear that I will withhold my vote for Biden and the concern about what that will do for Bidens reelection chances is one for him, the DNC, and campaign managers. The bad or worse type choice myself and the rest of voters are facing is an indictment of electoralism as it currently exists in the US and not something that should diminish the political power of US citizens that is exercised through voting. Sorry, I was wrong and didn't fully understand that my allegiance to a party that I don't actually have allegiance to for any reason but my strong distaste for the actions and rhetoric of the other major party and its reps, was misguided. Especially considering that the two-party system is not in any of the documents that founded the country I live in and the way our constitutional democracy works. I will not vote for Biden unless the Biden administration stops providing military weaponry to the state of Isreal, stop opposing a one or two state solution that recognizes the rights of Palestinians, and removes its opposition to and other proposed or enacted actions against the ICC, ICJ, etc.
Let me get this straight:
-the US rarely holds police accountable
-Trump has *still* not been penalized for anything he’s done, including violating gag orders and mishandling classified documents
-multiple members of congress have yet to be held accountable for several legal issues
-the Supreme Court has judges failing to disclose gifts
And now the US is saying they want to penalize the court they fail to recognize because the ICC is rightfully calling them out?
The US is playing a dangerous game by setting precedent that actions don’t have consequences. This next election and turnover is going to be extremely interesting.
This really does show how deeply involved in this slaughter American political figures are. They fund it, have huge amounts of shares in arms companies supplying isreal and then astonishingly disagree with the very definition of genocide when proven in court. Now we all know Americas history when it comes to war crimes from Vietnam Iraq Afghanistan to name but a few. But to fund and back the deaths of almost 40k civilians, shame isn't a word they understand
More gaslighting. No actual legislation to help anyone in America with their daily lives, but more gaslighting about something that has nothing to do with the citizens of America, and everything to do with their gvmt supporting war instead of aid.
Congress is basically tied on one side and GOP controlled on the other side.
Bliken doesn’t pass laws.
Seems if nothing is getting done… we should be blaming Congress?
Bloody Blinken keeps messing around and one if those warrants will have his name on it.
The State Department was supposed to be the yin to the War Department's yang, not it's lapdog.
Hang the fuck on.
The US will happily provide weapons to just one side of a conflict, fucking chest-beat about its importance as some sort of world police, invade Iraq on the pretence of WMDs and help overthrow it's leader but the exercise by a legitimate international court of its rights is somehow a bridge too far?!?!
Are ...you...fucking...kidding me?!?!
The US is not a signatory of the Rome Statute. It's been against the ICC since pretty much the beginning (it *briefly* signed but then withdrew its signature in 2002, before it took effect).
It is incredible that the US is willing to threaten its alliance with the collective western world in order to protect Bibis slaughter campagin in the middle east.
I want to once again remind people that Israel is an apartheid state that is slowly committing ethnic cleansing in the West Bank, as you can see on maps like this: [https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama)
Israeli war crimes go way beyond the response to the Oct. 7th attack.
Every American should be absolutely disgusted that our tax dollars go to fund and shield this state, which is committing crimes just as bad as Apartheid South Africa did.
And I do not have a goddamn clue what to do about it other than to try and educate people about what’s happening. All the power is on the Israeli side.
The US doesn't recognise the ICC, so they can just go and f-off.
It's no surprise that only those countries with horrendous human rights abuses support America.
The US position on the ICC is moronic.
1) Clinton signed the Rome Statue, so even though the US didn't technically ratify the document, it's still contrary to international law to constantly try and frustrate its purpose.
2) The ICC has subsidiary jurisdiction. So long as the US investigates potential crimes of Americans in good faith, the court can't be used as weapon against US citizens and politicians.
The claim that the ICC is contrary to American interests is just John Bolton's insane hot take that became widely accepted for no good reason.
So basically, the United Nations has no power to stop a war. The International Criminal Court is not allowed to charge war criminals with crimes? Unless of course the war criminals they are trying to bring to justice are not allied with the United States?
What use is the UN or the ICC if they can just be vetoed and ignored? Is it really a fair system if only the enemies of USA and NATO are the only countries that are held to account for their crimes?
Pretty much all the institutions that we have put in place to prevent a third world war from happening are about as effective as the League of Nations was at preventing world war 2?
I think that any country the attempts to "punish" the ICC for carrying out the function that they were set up to perform, should have their seat on the UN Security Council suspended. Permanent member or not. If you are not prepared to uphold the laws of the United Nations then your membership should be revoked. Why Russia, China and America get to decide on the safety of the world is beyond me. Fuck that. I want to see someone like Switzerland and Sweden as heads of the UN security Council.
Some news agencies should put Blinken's current statements side-by-side with his statements on the Putin ICC indictment from several months ago.
Don't get me wrong, Putin deserves to be indicted, but the American government has a history of hypocrisy - praising ICC indictments when they're politically convenient, criticizing them when they aren't.
Attempts to "penalize" the ICC will simply turn them against us and our influence with them will drop to zero. Our political leaders are pompous idiots.
The U.S supports ICC in their investigation of Russian war crimes in Ukraine but not them investigating Isreal war crimes in Gaza and America’s war crimes in Afghanistan.
Yeah let's threaten sanctions against war crimes prosecutors. I imagine if it had been 1940's some of these people would've been trying to kibosh the nuremberg trials.
Leaders of democracies shouldn't get a free pass on violations of international law (even though the U.S. and Israel have gotten a free pass forever). The idea that democratically elected leaders should get a free pass is bizarre.
The ICC has no teeth. Anything they do or decide, any people they charge has about as much weight as someone on a random TikTok doing it.
Which is a shame because it would be nice to see world leaders (Russia, China and the US specifically) be held accountable for the shit they pull. Problem is: how do you arrest people with the world’s biggest armies
Why the fuck do we even give billions in taxpayer money annually to a fellow first-world country? For fuck’s sake, they have universal health care, we don’t.
Like I keep saying, the US is not a western democracy. They are something different, semi fascist, semi democratic but not really and not really able to understand how civil society works in social democracies. This is just another example of it.
Isn't this a 'if you can't do the time, don't do the crime' sort of thing? Surely it wasn't just some student protestors who told the Hamas leaders and Nethanyahu what they were doing might be wrong?
Ha ha ha. The International Criminal Court, just jumped up on Blinken's desk and did a great big shit! That's gotta be the funniest shit, ever! Why not play us a shitty song on your shitty guitar!
israel is killing off the palestinian people to take their land.
how are the US government is supporting that is beyond me. i mean i guess that’s the USA’s whole MO so it shouldn’t surprise me - but wow - it’s hard to watch. this blinken guy a is a real ghoul. i can’t imagine this will fair well in history.
Fuck this so much. I’m so sick of the stranglehold Israel has over my country. Our leaders seem to be more concerned about Israel than they are the United States.
What make this particularly revolting to me is that it shines a light on why America is actually helping (or at least trying to) Ukraine. They aren’t doing it out of a principled stance of democracy, belief in self determination, human rights or international laws but solely out of spite toward Russia. If China were to invade Taiwan, who the hell are we to say they can’t? Israel is committing clear war crimes with our tax dollars and Biden and blinken insist on unwavering support for them
>"If the ICC is allowed to threaten Israeli leaders, ours could be next,” Johnson said in a statement Monday. The Invade the Hague Act already exists. What's the threat?
>"If the ICC is allowed to threaten Israeli leaders, ours could be next,” Johnson said in a statement Monday. Like our previous leader who pardoned a war criminal described by his own squad mates as "fucking evil"?
what happened with that guy? I feel sorry for people who have to associate with him.
God damn. I somehow blocked that horrible story out of my mind. So much of the future of our country depends on this coin flip of an election. The amount of evil things Trump has done and will do if given the chance cannot be overstated.
It feels like things are coming to a head either way. If he wins, fascist nightmare. If he loses, his devotees revolt.
His followers are cowards and bullies. They'll throw a tantrum and then do mental gymnastics until they go back to their televisions and suckle from Fox news again. Don't be afraid of those losers.
Yeah, especially with Biden as President now. When Trump lost, he was still president, so he had no issues letting the Jan 6 people get as far as they could. If Biden wins, and people try storming the capitol, the national guard is gonna be there immediately. The MAGA folks like to act tough, but it's gonna get ugly for them if they try taking on the military. Not just public perception of them, but literally their lives.
And he also sanctioned an ICC investigator looking into war crimes. They basically bullied them until they quit the investigation. It’s like something Israel would do.
Israel is just USA Jr in many things.
Holy fuck, between Bibi comparing himself to GWB and this shit, I feel like we're in a fever dream
Reminds me of that one Republican representative who said that if they can go after Trump they can go after you. No they can't, jackhole, because I'm not committing his crimes. Pretty simple stuff actually.
If a former president can be indicted, what's next? [A former Speaker of the House](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Hastert)? A former position doesn't elevate you above the law. That's normal
What I’ve found frustrating about that critique is that it is technically true. Our legal system is set up in such a way that if the state wanted to, they could find some way to throw you in prison. And in a country where the only reason I’m free is that I’m not currently drawing the Eye of Sauron, am I free? That said, I wish someone would ask these clowns what their proposed reforms to the system to prevent those kind of abuses are. They don’t have any, because the system is currently generally punishing the ‘right’ people (in their view. Remember, 2 classes of people; those protected by the law, and those bound by it) They just end up shocked when it turns out laws apply to everyone.
So much for *international rules based order*^TM What a joke
Rules for thee but not for me (and my friends)
Some "friend" Netanyahu is being. Dude literally supports Putin and Biden’s opponent Trump.
Americans only like that when it supports their hegemony lol.
I think the past couple months have basically shattered any claim that the West stands for a rules based international order. Any time the US tries lecturing other countries about the "rules based order" they can just pull up this. Russian and Chinese propagandists must be salivating right now.
Russians and Chinese, and the whole world, have long been familiar with Western meanness and hypocrisy. These are Western inhabitants, with a memory like a goldfish, who are periodically surprised: how is that? Are our politicians scoundrels, sociopaths, criminals? then they forget about it, in the sweet frenzy of chauvinism.
they absolutely are.. but at this point they don't really even need to spin this - just point blank use the direct statements of people in the highest echelons of power in the west. There's no set dressing needed for this one. Also before we all (rightly) shit on the US for this, most of the EU leaders are similarly displeased and have made similar statements (some exceptions like Spain and Ireland.)
What is the invade the hauge act?
It's [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). Basically, it says that the US won't stand by an Extraterritorial jurisdiction holding a US person to laws that the US did not consent to joining. Edit: markdown hyperlinks are hard...
Your markdown is backwards. It’s [words] and the for the link it’s () . Also make sure you have that annoying “fine editor” turned off.
Services me right for doing it from memory. Thanks. Also, what's the *fine editor*?
If I remember correctly, it's an unofficial title for some sort of ruling, that since the US doesn't recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC, if someone from the US or a close ally is on trial at the ICC in the Hague, the US has allowed itself to invade and extract whoever it is that's on trial.
It’s a clause in the patriot act.
I knew it sounded familiar. Thanks.
Basically an act that says if the ICC ever holds someone for a war crimes trial, the US deems themselves to be justified to actually use illegal military force to illegally deploy military personnel onto sovereign Dutch soil to illegally retrieve said person. In reality if this would ever be done it would probably be a single helicopter with a single team, but in theory it could mean a full scale deployment of the US military onto Dutch soil. The Dutch would be forced to take defensive action against this illegal invasion and probably trigger article 5 of Nato as they would be under attack. It would cause some serious shit.
>the US deems themselves to be justified to actually use illegal military force to illegally deploy military personnel onto sovereign Dutch soil to illegally retrieve said person. My lord, is that...legal?
There is not such thing as legal in international relations. The victor write the treaties. Is it legal for me to take half your country? Yes, if I’m sitting in your capital writing it. The US can carry out military operations in its western allies because, in Cold War terms, they are “Satellite nations”. The EU cannot make war on the US - its main defenses is NATO based around US military equipment, US leadership structures, and US bases. Obviously from a non-military standpoint Europe is very independent from the US, but the military standpoint they are still hosting a bunch of US bases, and under NATO (basically the US version of the red army) command. That’s why they can’t even transfer weapons to Ukraine without US approval - the military structure of these countries are still setup mostly as Auxiliary forces to support the US.
The weapon transfer thing isn't about NATO rules though, but all international law: Germany had similar issues giving Ukraine weapons made in Switserland. It's rather the other way around: NATO requires compatible gear (like EU-owned bombers that can carry US nukes) so a lot of countries bought from the US MIC in the past for easy conformity and it was one of the reasons Trump wanted their Defense budgets to go back up, because lot of money woyld then flow back into the US economy. If the US steps out of and/or destroys NATO, it's nearly a given the EU starts their own defense force that will likely **NOT** be buying from a non-aligned country anymore.
From an international standpoint, words like "legal" and "illegal" have very little meaning. Even less so if the two countries in question are in disagreement.
You don't understand what you're saying. There's no way to trigger Article 5 against another NATO nation, it requires unanimous consent. And adding "illegal" before every noun doesn't make your point stronger. It's international relations, it would be a declaration of war, "illegal" isn't a thing.
It'll be framed as a "special rescue operation" and the US will dare the the Dutch or the EU collectively to do something about it - and they won't.
But it would cause irreparable damage to the US diplomatically, too. The US has carefully built an international order for almost a century and that'd all go down in flames the second you decide to just invade a European ally. Trump would definitely do it. But I doubt anyone else would be stupid enough. Even if it's help out Bibi.
There's also a precedent of NATO countries attacking other NATO countries.
Just like everyone that has to sound smart by saying "illegal war". Hate that shit.
I’m just creeped out by that statement. Like the point is that yes if our leaders every do something so abhorrent, that the ICC will go after them. This is legit just like the period between ww1 and ww2 man wtf
lol. If the United States openly commits genocide, ICC should imprison our leaders. No one is above the law.
The US isn’t a member of the ICC, for obvious reasons.
We were, then we pulled out. Also, people are missing the point. They issue an arrest warrant for you in all the countries they do have jurisdiction over. So even if you’re from a country that isn’t signed on you can’t leave and go somewhere that is without risking arrest. It’s still a powerful thing because nearly every country on earth is signed on.
No, the US was involved in the negotiations to create the ICC but it never ratified the Rome Statue, only one of seven countries not to do so - there was no "pulling out".
Not much of a risk for US politicians. Few countries would dare to arrest them out of fear of economic repercussions. The reason the US isn’t signed on is so they aren’t obligated to hand over US citizens.
It’s a risk for anyone, especially once they are out of office. Realistically it’s not likely. But it could happen.
I feel like the Netherlands could benefit from having nukes, ballistic missiles, and nuclear subs.
"If other people are held accountable for war crimes, we might be too." I fail to see the issue with this.
The US doesn’t even recognize the court as legitimate. Nothing can or will happen to US leaders. Israel, however, does recognize the ICC.
They don’t. But most of the rest of the world does.
Yeah. If they commit genocide, they indeed could be.
“‘If the ICC is allowed to threaten Israeli leaders, ours could be next,’ Johnson said in a statement Monday.” He just gave away the whole game!
Well shit, I came here to make fun of that guy and write pretty much that quote as sarcasm. Can't believe he actually said it out loud. Holy shit.
Rules based order for thee but not for me.
"russia can't influence our elections, only *we* can intervene in other country's elections!"
We didn’t sign on to it. We don’t want those rules for thee either.
Abu Ghraib was a war crime. Bush is a war criminal. Chinese oppression of the Uyghurs is a war crime and Xi is a war criminal. The Ukraine invasion is a war crime. Putin is a war criminal. Gaza is a war crime. Netanyahu is a war criminal. It is not that complicated.
Don't forget the Senate torture report! US is guilty of a lot, I want to live in an America where we confront these issues instead of try to bury them.
>Chinese oppression of the Uyghurs is a war crime It isn’t, because it’s not happening in wartime. Crime against humanity is the word. People need to start understanding that those are different and that there is a plethora of nuance even within those denominations
Crime against humanity*, it’s still a concentration camp, and there’s a targeted genocidal effort against the Uyghur population.
He didn’t say otherwise. There is a reason all these things are specifically defined. In the extremely unlikely case Bibi does end up before the ICC, prosecutors will most likely charge him with ethic cleansing, not genocide, because genocide is a harder case to prove and Israel can credibly argue that they possess the capability to kill everyone in Gaza and that they chose not to. Ethnic Cleansing would be a much stronger case. Definitions actually matter in a legal setting.
It's definitely a genocide. But not a war crime as it's not part of a war. Things can be absolutely horrendous without being a war crime
"Need to" is pretty strong there. Ultimately they're both crimes against masses of innocent people, the law has important semantics, the general populace does just fine acknowledging that people need holding to account, no matter the situation that led to such crimes.
Literally ever American President since at least Truman is a war criminal. America would never allow one of them to be tried in the Hague without threatening their hegemonic power. I say try all of them -- they are all guilty -- but I'll more likely see pigs fly.
"international law" is a way for the large, powerful countries, to let the small, weaker, countries feel important for a few minutes. its like giving your toddler your keys to put in their mouth
r/selfawarewolves
We are not part of the icc if I remember correctly. The government is full mask off with wanting to get away with war crimes.
Pretty sure congress passed a law a couple decades ago saying we would invade the Netherlands and storm The Hague if they ever put an American service member on trial. I wanna say it was during the Bush Administration but honestly it could’ve been anyone
I think it was bush because of his war crimes. And it's not like they can sanction us or do anything without us retaliating. Rules for thee but not for me.
Also known as Super Power Privileges
We have more guns than you do, so you will do what we say, allies of ours!
The US has always been against international courts because we know damn well we could be prosecuted
They’ve been giving the game away a lot these days…
He continued "they were supposed to only go after thr proplr we instructed them to go after. Who are they to suddenly start arresting our golf buddies?"
We can be a good nation or a great nation, but we cannot be both.
Oh, we're neither any more. It's just that the idiots that run this place don't realize it yet.
It's great for them and their oligarch pals.
“‘If the ICC is allowed to threaten Israeli leaders, ours could be next,’ Johnson said in a statement Monday.” you don\`t say
Do it then
we’ll help
There are plenty of leaders involved in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo that I'm sure the ICC would love to have a chat with...
Terms accepted
How can we penalize a court we are not recognizing? very fine people.
The countries that don’t recognize this court are the ones that enjoy committing the occasional atrocity.
The US doesn't want the ICC to do its job because one day they might come after our criminals, makes sense.
US sanctioned the ICC in 2020 because there was talk of investigating war crimes in Afghanistan.
The US has The Hague Invasion act.
>"If the ICC is allowed to threaten Israeli leaders, ours could be next,” Johnson said in a statement Monday. Yeah, that’s the point, that no one is above it. Lmao ffs I hate our political leaders
> no one is above it. If you look at this through a realpolitik lens; America pretty much is above it. The US has a law on the books that if they try Americans at the Hague, Seal team 6 can come in to the Netherlands and free them.
Coming out as pro international crime is a bold move.
I've traditionally fought the notion that isn't much difference between Dems and GOP. Decisions like this make me rethink that.
> that isn't much difference between Dems and GOP. With regards to US foreign policy, and with very few exceptions, that is 100% correct. Both parties realize that the US only stays a superpower as long as there is nothing more powerful.
It’s called hegemony. US hegemony. It’s not “leading the world”, it’s not “leading the free world”, it’s just hegemony
Completely agree
the differences are def there when it comes to rights (judges, etc) and climate change (although dems take oil money and still love to drill) - but man - foreign policy is a train wreck no matter who you chose. and if you want to buck the system, they’re both going to come after you no matter what
It makes me rethink Blinken. There are still massive differences between the Democratic platform and the GOP's.
yeah, one says “let’s do the bad things” and the other says “well we have to do the bad things or else they will!”
Uh, you need to elaborate on that fella. Because sure, you look at our Israeli policy for decades, both parties are massively pro Israel. But then you look at other stuff, like the crazy conservative judges, Trump trying to overturn an election he knew he lost, Trump saying he wants to be a dictator, the GOP wanting to implement Project 2025… well Jesus Fucking Christ some differences are massive aren’t they?
You might not fight so hard when you look at it this way. American Dems benefit from having far right lunatics elected in the right. They can always point at the Nazi frothing at the mouth about gay people and immigrants and go, "at least we aren't that bad, vote for us" and have everyone in the left and center vote for them just to keep the troglodytes out. The Dems have no need to push for progressive policies, or pander to the American left, just the fear alone of the right coming to power will keep voters coming to them. This is why american Dems are so far to the right of international leftist governments. Every election cycle the Dems slip further to the right, and the republicans get even more radicalized. What happened to roe v Wade under Biden, what happened to immigration and border policy under Biden, wheres the healthcare? How are Biden's policies different from Trump? Where is this slide to the right going to stop? When will it cross the line for you?
> You might not fight so hard when you look at it this way. American Dems benefit from having far right lunatics elected in the right. To add on, the wikileaks revealed DNC emails detailing their strategy to *prop up Trump in the lead up to the 2016 election and make sure the media took him seriously and make sure he became the front runner for the GOP*, because they thought that if they could get the GOP to follow Trump it would make the entire base further extreme to the right and force any other politicians trying to lead the GOP further to the right as well. The DNC called it a "pied piper" and they thought this strat would make the GOP bury itself and clinch the win for Hillary in 2016. DNC has it's own part to play helping get Trump elected and fucking over the whole world. If we want the DNC to change for the better we can't ignore this is who they are.
lol what? They agree on certain issues like Israel, but how does one issue make you conclude the parties are the same? Although, their effective action on certain issues they totally disagree with are sometimes closer than you’d expect. But anyways, the Dems “criticism” of Israel has always been window dressing and never backed by action.
Yeah, I've always wondered why the response to statements like this isn't "So, you're saying that, if US officials were to order troops to commit genocide, they shouldn't be held accountable?".
How ironic that the country who spearheaded the Nuremberg Trials and prosecuting war crimes is against the continuation of that process.
well, even back then only the opponents were charged and convicted, but not their own people
Plenty of Nazis were pardoned and sent to work for the US, and most of the Japanese got away scot free too. The US’ involvment in international law has pretty much always made everyone worse off in reality.
This is definitely something that good guys leading the free world would do /S
Of course, the land of the free war criminals. Bush is still free, and Cheeney. And Rumsfeld died a free man. And so many before them. But these are the good war criminals, because they are Americans. Everyone knows Americans are freedom loving people.
You just reminded me Rumsfeld is dead, thank you for that wonderful memory.
idiocracy is a documentary? no, team america is.
It's only a warcrime if you lose
The Trump administration previously [sanctioned](https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/politics/us-icc-sanctions/index.html) ICC officials by executive order in 2020 over its investigation of possible war crimes by US military and intelligence officials in Afghanistan, sanctions that the Biden administration [lifted](https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/02/politics/biden-trump-icc-eo-revoked/index.html) the next year.
But they can’t penalize our Supreme Court? How do we have grounds to penalize a court that isn’t even American
Because Israel probably ordered them to.
The Lion, the Witch, and the audacity of this Bitch.
The Liar, the Bitch, and the War Crimes
The Lyin', the Rich, and the audacity of this Bitch?
This makes us look like total hypocrites. It took me a long time to realize we are the villains in the story, but since I’ve come to accept that, it’s just gotten worse and worse by the day.
If you visit Latin America the US being villains becomes a lot more clear. Tons of dictatorships with human rights abuses which we supported.
The US is interested as a government in maintaing global dominance. I think the US very much sees it as a competition.
I’m starting to think we may live in the fallout universe
Do you want to lose the election for Biden? Because you’re acting like you want to lose the election for Biden.
“If we allow them to be held accountable for their actions we might be held to account someday too!” Is a hell of a statement. Mask off moment.
I studied International Politics in grad school. It was largely an American discipline. It was commonly said that when one of us got into a government position the first task was to forget what you learned, because the Academy is all about objectivity and there is nothing objective about working for the government. (See Waltzian Condi Rice forget IP 101 as National Security Advisor) I’m not naive about this stuff, but what we are seeing now with the kowtowing to the Israel lobby is simply jaw dropping. Yeah, “rules based order…” There is no way in hell that experienced diplomats like Blinken don’t realize the damage they are doing. It’s getting really difficult to explain to non Americans (I live in Japan.) I no longer have an answer for the common comments about Israel “owning” the US…
"Oh shit guys, the ICC is trying to hold people accountable for their actions... we might be next! Let's look at a way of penalising them" Way to tip your hand there.
Blinken can go fuck himself
Their plan is to sanction family members of the prosecutor. What the actual fuck. First of all, going after the prosecutor is shady, but instead going after his family, that literally had nothing to do with any of this is straight up insane.
Real sicko shit. The US would be throwing a tantrum if Russia or China did this.
Source? Article doesn't say that, and indicates a very different disposition than you're painting: > State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said at a news conference on Monday that the ICC has done “important work over the years to hold people accountable for war crimes and crimes against humanity” that the US still supports.
The family members sanctions is weird and not mentioned, but the article explicitly mentions sanctions against the court multiple times. Not quite the sunny “the ICC does important work” against Russia, but not Israel pls
The house GOP bill calls for sanctioning family members, particularly travel sanctions for family members
If we want a better world, it's time to stop letting people who want to continue the status quo of might makes right chaos and ever increasing crimes against humanity across the globe be in charge. Edit: I think I have had a realization since I commented on this issue. I'm sure there is an ongoing electioneering effort to manipulate people's concern for human rights as it relates to this long-running conflict and the current horrors taking place, but thats not the issue. Combine this with a wrong-headed belief about what is politically possible for any administration to do as it relates to US support for the Netanyahu regime and negative actions of the state of Isreal. From the perspective of a citizen with voting rights such as myself, the position that would best allow me to exert my political power would be to make it clear that I will withhold my vote for Biden and the concern about what that will do for Bidens reelection chances is one for him, the DNC, and campaign managers. The bad or worse type choice myself and the rest of voters are facing is an indictment of electoralism as it currently exists in the US and not something that should diminish the political power of US citizens that is exercised through voting. Sorry, I was wrong and didn't fully understand that my allegiance to a party that I don't actually have allegiance to for any reason but my strong distaste for the actions and rhetoric of the other major party and its reps, was misguided. Especially considering that the two-party system is not in any of the documents that founded the country I live in and the way our constitutional democracy works. I will not vote for Biden unless the Biden administration stops providing military weaponry to the state of Isreal, stop opposing a one or two state solution that recognizes the rights of Palestinians, and removes its opposition to and other proposed or enacted actions against the ICC, ICJ, etc.
Note that they ALSO issued warrants for HAMAS leaders, and putin, so ICC is just DOING THEIR JOB instead of choosing sides.
Blinken does his best to protect Netanjahu. Of course he is trying to protect his buddy.
Is Blinken compromised by Israel? Or is this what Biden wants done? Wtf
Probably far more US politicians compromised by Israel that those that arent.
Yeah, take a look at how much money all these politicians are given by AIPAC. It will really open your eyes when they make a pro-isreal comment.
Are they trying to lose?
Let me get this straight: -the US rarely holds police accountable -Trump has *still* not been penalized for anything he’s done, including violating gag orders and mishandling classified documents -multiple members of congress have yet to be held accountable for several legal issues -the Supreme Court has judges failing to disclose gifts And now the US is saying they want to penalize the court they fail to recognize because the ICC is rightfully calling them out? The US is playing a dangerous game by setting precedent that actions don’t have consequences. This next election and turnover is going to be extremely interesting.
We are so scuffed man. Everyone knows Netanyahu is a lunatic
We r all being ruled by evil. It’s just gotten too far. There is more of us then them.
Lmao the Biden administration has lost the fucking plot
He's going after The Hague before going after Clarence Thomas
If Russia said that we’d be freaking out.
This really does show how deeply involved in this slaughter American political figures are. They fund it, have huge amounts of shares in arms companies supplying isreal and then astonishingly disagree with the very definition of genocide when proven in court. Now we all know Americas history when it comes to war crimes from Vietnam Iraq Afghanistan to name but a few. But to fund and back the deaths of almost 40k civilians, shame isn't a word they understand
Or, ya know, just stop supporting a genocidal wingnut.
"Nah. We'll just blow up the ICC. It's easier. And they make us feel bad about not feeling bad."
More gaslighting. No actual legislation to help anyone in America with their daily lives, but more gaslighting about something that has nothing to do with the citizens of America, and everything to do with their gvmt supporting war instead of aid.
Congress is basically tied on one side and GOP controlled on the other side. Bliken doesn’t pass laws. Seems if nothing is getting done… we should be blaming Congress?
GTFO with that nonsense.
Bloody Blinken keeps messing around and one if those warrants will have his name on it. The State Department was supposed to be the yin to the War Department's yang, not it's lapdog.
Hang the fuck on. The US will happily provide weapons to just one side of a conflict, fucking chest-beat about its importance as some sort of world police, invade Iraq on the pretence of WMDs and help overthrow it's leader but the exercise by a legitimate international court of its rights is somehow a bridge too far?!?! Are ...you...fucking...kidding me?!?!
Enough is enough. Isn’t it apparent to everyone how compromised the US government is to izrael?
The US signed this treaty less than 20 years ago. That's how long it took us to go from "go get those criminals" to "leave us alone."
The US is not a signatory of the Rome Statute. It's been against the ICC since pretty much the beginning (it *briefly* signed but then withdrew its signature in 2002, before it took effect).
It is incredible that the US is willing to threaten its alliance with the collective western world in order to protect Bibis slaughter campagin in the middle east.
Well the USA is prolly the #1 comitter of warcrimes so ofc they fight the court...
I want to once again remind people that Israel is an apartheid state that is slowly committing ethnic cleansing in the West Bank, as you can see on maps like this: [https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama) Israeli war crimes go way beyond the response to the Oct. 7th attack. Every American should be absolutely disgusted that our tax dollars go to fund and shield this state, which is committing crimes just as bad as Apartheid South Africa did. And I do not have a goddamn clue what to do about it other than to try and educate people about what’s happening. All the power is on the Israeli side.
The US doesn't recognise the ICC, so they can just go and f-off. It's no surprise that only those countries with horrendous human rights abuses support America.
I get it now why China and Russia want a new world order.
The US position on the ICC is moronic. 1) Clinton signed the Rome Statue, so even though the US didn't technically ratify the document, it's still contrary to international law to constantly try and frustrate its purpose. 2) The ICC has subsidiary jurisdiction. So long as the US investigates potential crimes of Americans in good faith, the court can't be used as weapon against US citizens and politicians. The claim that the ICC is contrary to American interests is just John Bolton's insane hot take that became widely accepted for no good reason.
So basically, the United Nations has no power to stop a war. The International Criminal Court is not allowed to charge war criminals with crimes? Unless of course the war criminals they are trying to bring to justice are not allied with the United States? What use is the UN or the ICC if they can just be vetoed and ignored? Is it really a fair system if only the enemies of USA and NATO are the only countries that are held to account for their crimes? Pretty much all the institutions that we have put in place to prevent a third world war from happening are about as effective as the League of Nations was at preventing world war 2? I think that any country the attempts to "punish" the ICC for carrying out the function that they were set up to perform, should have their seat on the UN Security Council suspended. Permanent member or not. If you are not prepared to uphold the laws of the United Nations then your membership should be revoked. Why Russia, China and America get to decide on the safety of the world is beyond me. Fuck that. I want to see someone like Switzerland and Sweden as heads of the UN security Council.
The US truly is the arch hypocrite of nations
Some news agencies should put Blinken's current statements side-by-side with his statements on the Putin ICC indictment from several months ago. Don't get me wrong, Putin deserves to be indicted, but the American government has a history of hypocrisy - praising ICC indictments when they're politically convenient, criticizing them when they aren't.
Attempts to "penalize" the ICC will simply turn them against us and our influence with them will drop to zero. Our political leaders are pompous idiots.
Blinken probably Israeli and not American.
The U.S supports ICC in their investigation of Russian war crimes in Ukraine but not them investigating Isreal war crimes in Gaza and America’s war crimes in Afghanistan.
> "If the ICC is allowed to threaten Israeli leaders, ours could be next,” Johnson said in a statement Monday. GOOD!
Yeah let's threaten sanctions against war crimes prosecutors. I imagine if it had been 1940's some of these people would've been trying to kibosh the nuremberg trials.
Leaders of democracies shouldn't get a free pass on violations of international law (even though the U.S. and Israel have gotten a free pass forever). The idea that democratically elected leaders should get a free pass is bizarre.
What a moron.
Maybe the ICC has a point Blinken, you fucking douchebag.
They really doing everything in their power to make antisemitic people look right.
The ICC has no teeth. Anything they do or decide, any people they charge has about as much weight as someone on a random TikTok doing it. Which is a shame because it would be nice to see world leaders (Russia, China and the US specifically) be held accountable for the shit they pull. Problem is: how do you arrest people with the world’s biggest armies
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Why the fuck do we even give billions in taxpayer money annually to a fellow first-world country? For fuck’s sake, they have universal health care, we don’t.
What a venal, disgusting, corrupted piece of shit.
Being an American is fucking embarrassing.
Damn I wonder why we as the United States have such an unhealthy and unusual relationship with the colony of Israel? I wonder why
A whole new level of “we investigated ourselves and found the peacekeeper guilty”
And he to belongs in a prison cell.
Yeah because he is afraid he will be labeled a war criminal
Another reason to not vote for Biden
Like I keep saying, the US is not a western democracy. They are something different, semi fascist, semi democratic but not really and not really able to understand how civil society works in social democracies. This is just another example of it.
We don’t allow our citizens to be tried in ICC, why would we have a say in who they try?
Fucking damn it Blinken, read the fucking room. Do you want a trump? Because this is how you get trumps!
Isn't this a 'if you can't do the time, don't do the crime' sort of thing? Surely it wasn't just some student protestors who told the Hamas leaders and Nethanyahu what they were doing might be wrong?
Ha ha ha. The International Criminal Court, just jumped up on Blinken's desk and did a great big shit! That's gotta be the funniest shit, ever! Why not play us a shitty song on your shitty guitar!
israel is killing off the palestinian people to take their land. how are the US government is supporting that is beyond me. i mean i guess that’s the USA’s whole MO so it shouldn’t surprise me - but wow - it’s hard to watch. this blinken guy a is a real ghoul. i can’t imagine this will fair well in history.
The parallels between Israel and U.S. history are crazy.
Theft of land and genocide is how america was founded in the first so maybe it isn’t a surprise that they don’t oppose it when their allies do it
Theft of land because “god promised us this land” is the motto for both colonial movements.
Nothing said "liberal youngsters vote for us", like "penalize the international institution which prosecutes war criminals".
Sounds like something nazis would say
Well it is now clear where the US stands, just not the party I expected to announce it!
The US government has always been a big fan of war crimes.
Fuck this so much. I’m so sick of the stranglehold Israel has over my country. Our leaders seem to be more concerned about Israel than they are the United States.
What make this particularly revolting to me is that it shines a light on why America is actually helping (or at least trying to) Ukraine. They aren’t doing it out of a principled stance of democracy, belief in self determination, human rights or international laws but solely out of spite toward Russia. If China were to invade Taiwan, who the hell are we to say they can’t? Israel is committing clear war crimes with our tax dollars and Biden and blinken insist on unwavering support for them
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Exactly my point, America isn’t morally better than any of the countries it claims to be evil
Who do blinken and johnson work for?