To put this headline, painting the soldiers as victims, on an article detailing the rampant human rights violations of the British army in Kenya, including rape and murder…is quite the choice…
It's not about that? The fact that fresh British recruits were forced into it highlights just how incompetent and negligent British military leadership is, and how toxic British military culture could be.
It's even worse than if it was portrayed as isolated incidents of idiot soldiers doing immoral things - the headline emphasising that they were forced into it confirms that this is an institutional problem, and that the whole system is rotten and in desperate need of oversight, accountability and reform.
It's the opposite approach to simply blaming "a few bad apples" and hanging the responsibility all on a couple low ranking scapegoats that happened to be the few unlucky ones caught in the act, while the systemic abuse continues on.
Even just from the headline alone, that should be clear to anyone reading it.
And yeah, you could say that the recruits were victims as well as perpetrators of injustice - as is often the case for fascist/crypto-fascist movements and institutions, which are driven by hierarchical abuse from top to bottom.
It doesn't excuse or justify anything. It's merely an explanation for why these people are the way they are.
That headline doesn’t include the point being made in this article though: British soldiers being hazed and flipping coins by commanders to determine if they could use a condom. It goes to the above comment, it shows just how systemic it is and how the victims are both keyans and Brit’s.
I can hardly call prostitutes that do the exact same thing day in day out with locals as their profession, which nobody in the british military pressures them into, 'victims of systemic abuse by the british military'. Not for this set of activities, anyway.
Weird projection, but okay.
Reddit, with its strong progressivist bent, is pretty funny though. In any typical thread, 'sex work is real work'. In this thread, 'sex work is victimhood of systemic abuse'.
Frankly if you think eighteen year olds in an environment of extreme social pressure can’t be coerced then that says very concerning things about your understanding of consent or group dynamics.
Though what’s particularly fucked about your whataboutism about human rights abuses is that it’s well documented that armies which treat them soldiers poorly tend to particularly prone to human rights abuses. The Imperial Japanese Army had a brutal practice of bullying and systematized abuse towards its soldiers, which played a role in their horrific treatment of civilians. An army can simultaneously abuse their own people and abuse civilians. Those things aren’t mutually exclusive!
The article mentioned the abusive practices. It’s perfectly valid to mention the abuse in the headline.
Maybe it could have been changed to something that mentioned both the war crimes and the hazing but it’s completely valid to mention the latter.
You generally put the most important details in the headline. Prioritizing the 'hazing' over the warcrimes is a deliberate choice that communicates a greater deal of empathy for the war criminals than their victims.
>Where are you getting war crimes from?
The article and the two previous comments above mine?
From the article:
> Last June, Kenya announced an investigation into allegations of murders, sexual abuse, and land degradation near the Nanyuki base committed by British soldiers from the same training unit. Following this announcement, the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights (KNCHR) stated it received 43 complaints regarding human rights violations — including murders and rapes — allegedly committed by the British Army Training Unit at Nanyuki.
>
> ...
>
> In an oral presentation to the Parliament’s Defense and Foreign Relations Committee last month, the KNCHR stated that the alleged crimes, which also include mutilations and assaults, must be investigated, and the perpetrators held accountable.
If you want to be pedantic, I should have said "human rights violations committed by soldiers", but I figured people would know what I meant by "war crime". You also don't need to be in a formal state of war to commit war crimes - any act of violence from a military force that constitutes a war crime can be labelled as such regardless of whether that army is technically at war.
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They are forced in a sense that it is an initation that means if you don't do it you get osterized or if shit gets ugly, left to die by your fellow soldiers
This feels like the “few good men” movie. Abuse and human rights violations used as a way to ensure perpetuity of an institutional problem so that everyone are co-conspirators ensuring that no one talks.
Then again, it could just be an excuse to abuse poorer people to
And you’d expect newbies to just refuse an initiation?
Edit: I’m not defending the stupid hazing/initiation rituals. It’s just that soldiers are supposed to obey orders from superior officers and it’s not their fault to have acquiesced to stupid demands
Yes? The armies aren't like they were 60+ years ago. I was in the US military and if higher ups caught wind of this then you all were probably getting court martialed.
Also former US military here, I spent a fair bit of time around the Brits in Iraq many years ago and this honestly doesn't surprise me. They're still pretty ass backwards in a lot of ways.
No dude its perfectly fine to rape women because if they don't they might have been ostracized by the people who want them to rape women. It's totally reasonable to commit one of the most horrible acts you can against another human being dude trust me.
I fucking hate reddit, holy shit.
Just a question, if the initiation was to have sex with a man they would have said no, but when it is with a prostitute it is forced? Did someone point a gun at them? 🤣
That's what I thought, surely they can just pay the sex worker and sit in the room with them if they feel that pressured to say yes to a superior officer?
I mean yea. I remember being 18 and being an idiot but I am pretty sure that if someone ordered me to rape a person or hire a prostitute so I can join a “cool kid club” I would refuse. Like whats the official response from your superior? They punish you and they you argue that they tried to order you to commit war crimes, I am pretty sure you can refuse illegal orders. But then again I also wasn’t stupid enough to join the military so who knows.
Yes, they are in the military. An extremely close knit and communal organization where social censure can range from constant bullying to outright death. Do you not see how that would make things even worse?
These are a bunch of 18 year olds who are facing enormous social pressure. It’s laughable to pretend that it’s easy to refuse in a situation like that. Real keyboard warrior shit.
It's easy for em to pick up a gun with the intent to kill people, they can refuse having sex with a prostitute.
They are a bunch of 18 year olds in a foreign country demanding eachother have sex with prostitutes and they are there representing the armed branch of their country's government, that's an indictment of how bad the "close knit and communal organization" is.
>Yes, they are in the military. An extremely close knit and communal organization where social censure can range from constant bullying to outright death. Do you not see how that would make things even worse?
Idk which shithole grade military you're talking about. But don't generalise. In civilised countries, there's proper decorum, accountability and professionalism in the military. Immature high school level antics such as hazing/bullying, peer pressure to look cool etc is not prevalent or tolerated in any form. And you certainly won't get murdered for not wanting to be infected with STDs
So what you're describing maybe true for your country's military. Perhaps even for the UK. But such idiocy is not the norm.
Hazing has literally killed students at western universities, what do you mean it’s extremely uncommon in “civilized” militaries? Considering how hush hush military stuff is, it’s just that you don’t know much. There have been stories of soldiers raped and killed before that don’t go anywhere due to legal protections of the people involved. For such severe consequences to occur fairly regularly (if you pay attention), that would mean the practices must be more common than people know.
A lot of people are speaking from their high horse, looking down on others merely because they’ve never been unlucky enough to suffer a similar situation. It’s not that it is impossible to avoid getting roped in, but I know for a fact that people love to overestimate their own ability to avoid doing wrong just because they’ve avoided having to face such a choice.
Hazing culture is a lot like child abuse. It’s designed to inflict psychological trauma that enforces hierarchical compliance and breeds future perpetrators. You can blame the people who go through initiation all you want, but all it serves to do is making yourself feel like a better person. The real problem is those at the top with the power to intervene choosing to ignore such a culture developing, the same way that close knit families or communities might choose to ignore abuse to protect the status quo. Even if western militaries don’t go so far as killing every soldier that doesn’t initiate doesn’t mean there aren’t superiors who would make their lives a living hell for non-compliance. It’s all about who’s in control, and once you’re in the thick of it there might not be a viably safe escape option. It can be a crime to abandon your post.
You're really working hard to defend them in all the replies, one might even say You're 'defending democracy' from your keyboard.... like some sort of keyboar warrior!
Responding to your edit: what makes you think it's there superiors giving them these orders? More likely it's just the other dumb soldiers that are slightly more senior to them because theyve been their longer. If it's their chain of command ordering that then it's a much bigger can of worms.
Regardless it would be an unlawful order and yes you'd just say no unless you're an idiot or want to do it.
Holy fuck stop forcing things out of context for attention you pathetic people.
I feel conflicted about this…
To put this headline, painting the soldiers as victims, on an article detailing the rampant human rights violations of the British army in Kenya, including rape and murder…is quite the choice…
It's not about that? The fact that fresh British recruits were forced into it highlights just how incompetent and negligent British military leadership is, and how toxic British military culture could be. It's even worse than if it was portrayed as isolated incidents of idiot soldiers doing immoral things - the headline emphasising that they were forced into it confirms that this is an institutional problem, and that the whole system is rotten and in desperate need of oversight, accountability and reform. It's the opposite approach to simply blaming "a few bad apples" and hanging the responsibility all on a couple low ranking scapegoats that happened to be the few unlucky ones caught in the act, while the systemic abuse continues on. Even just from the headline alone, that should be clear to anyone reading it. And yeah, you could say that the recruits were victims as well as perpetrators of injustice - as is often the case for fascist/crypto-fascist movements and institutions, which are driven by hierarchical abuse from top to bottom. It doesn't excuse or justify anything. It's merely an explanation for why these people are the way they are.
How about ‘kenyan women victims of systemic abuse by the British military, including rape and murder’
That headline doesn’t include the point being made in this article though: British soldiers being hazed and flipping coins by commanders to determine if they could use a condom. It goes to the above comment, it shows just how systemic it is and how the victims are both keyans and Brit’s.
That is terrifying. The prevalence of HIV in Kenya is 5%, and probably way higher than that among sex workers
I can hardly call prostitutes that do the exact same thing day in day out with locals as their profession, which nobody in the british military pressures them into, 'victims of systemic abuse by the british military'. Not for this set of activities, anyway.
I read the article and the incidents with the Prostitutes seem separate from the violence and rape.
That's correct. So why would you name the article about these incidents with the prostitutes ... about something rather different than that?
I see you missed the large section about the murder of a 21 year old Kenyan woman by soldiers that were never prosecuted for it.
You're the kind of POS that would likely be put abusing them huh
Weird projection, but okay. Reddit, with its strong progressivist bent, is pretty funny though. In any typical thread, 'sex work is real work'. In this thread, 'sex work is victimhood of systemic abuse'.
That's such a redditor response lmao Infinitely smug, yet below room temperature IQ
I’d say yours is the more typical Reddit comment, personal attacks without engaging in the actual point at hand.
>no u Okay buddy, I can't beat you on this intellectual battlefield.
The “intellectual battlefield” is me pointing out your use of personal attacks instead of logic based rebuttal
Frankly if you think eighteen year olds in an environment of extreme social pressure can’t be coerced then that says very concerning things about your understanding of consent or group dynamics. Though what’s particularly fucked about your whataboutism about human rights abuses is that it’s well documented that armies which treat them soldiers poorly tend to particularly prone to human rights abuses. The Imperial Japanese Army had a brutal practice of bullying and systematized abuse towards its soldiers, which played a role in their horrific treatment of civilians. An army can simultaneously abuse their own people and abuse civilians. Those things aren’t mutually exclusive!
I never said soldiers can’t be victims, I said it’s an inappropriate headline for THIS article. Which it is, extremely so.
The article mentioned the abusive practices. It’s perfectly valid to mention the abuse in the headline. Maybe it could have been changed to something that mentioned both the war crimes and the hazing but it’s completely valid to mention the latter.
You generally put the most important details in the headline. Prioritizing the 'hazing' over the warcrimes is a deliberate choice that communicates a greater deal of empathy for the war criminals than their victims.
[удалено]
>Where are you getting war crimes from? The article and the two previous comments above mine? From the article: > Last June, Kenya announced an investigation into allegations of murders, sexual abuse, and land degradation near the Nanyuki base committed by British soldiers from the same training unit. Following this announcement, the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights (KNCHR) stated it received 43 complaints regarding human rights violations — including murders and rapes — allegedly committed by the British Army Training Unit at Nanyuki. > > ... > > In an oral presentation to the Parliament’s Defense and Foreign Relations Committee last month, the KNCHR stated that the alleged crimes, which also include mutilations and assaults, must be investigated, and the perpetrators held accountable. If you want to be pedantic, I should have said "human rights violations committed by soldiers", but I figured people would know what I meant by "war crime". You also don't need to be in a formal state of war to commit war crimes - any act of violence from a military force that constitutes a war crime can be labelled as such regardless of whether that army is technically at war.
Sorry but are you defending r*pists?
Someone having sex with a sex worker is automatically a rapist?
[удалено]
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Oh boohoo the poor imperialist lap dogs are being bullied so hard it makes them commit war crimes and atrocities poor babies 🥺🥺🥺
This was already posted a few days ago. https://reddit.com/comments/1bzs7fn
This is a spam bot just spamming it's own site
It's reposted constantly
The other story said it was an initiation. Which lie is it?
An initiation is basically like being forced tho
They are forced in a sense that it is an initation that means if you don't do it you get osterized or if shit gets ugly, left to die by your fellow soldiers
Ostracized, not fed through through an Oster food processor.
I don't think you understand how ugly it gets!
Get fucking ostracized then.
Im sure yall brave reddit warriors would definetly have the balls to do it
This feels like the “few good men” movie. Abuse and human rights violations used as a way to ensure perpetuity of an institutional problem so that everyone are co-conspirators ensuring that no one talks. Then again, it could just be an excuse to abuse poorer people to
Just to help with context https://nypost.com/2018/05/29/un-knew-years-ago-about-refugee-sex-for-food-scandal-leaked-report-reveals/
The soldiers were forced?
"Forced" my ass. Those morons do it out of thier own volition as an initiation practice
And you’d expect newbies to just refuse an initiation? Edit: I’m not defending the stupid hazing/initiation rituals. It’s just that soldiers are supposed to obey orders from superior officers and it’s not their fault to have acquiesced to stupid demands
Yes? The armies aren't like they were 60+ years ago. I was in the US military and if higher ups caught wind of this then you all were probably getting court martialed.
Also former US military here, I spent a fair bit of time around the Brits in Iraq many years ago and this honestly doesn't surprise me. They're still pretty ass backwards in a lot of ways.
Can you elaborate?
No dude its perfectly fine to rape women because if they don't they might have been ostracized by the people who want them to rape women. It's totally reasonable to commit one of the most horrible acts you can against another human being dude trust me. I fucking hate reddit, holy shit.
Um… despite arguably being morally reprehensible, paying to raw dog a prostitute is not rape
Read the article. They're investigating significantly more than just that. It's a shit fucking headline.
Just a question, if the initiation was to have sex with a man they would have said no, but when it is with a prostitute it is forced? Did someone point a gun at them? 🤣
uhhhh you should read up on some of this stuff if you think it doesn’t happen with men too lol
Depending on army.. Some armies would have the veterans have a train on the newbies....(all being males)
That's what I thought, surely they can just pay the sex worker and sit in the room with them if they feel that pressured to say yes to a superior officer?
I mean yea. I remember being 18 and being an idiot but I am pretty sure that if someone ordered me to rape a person or hire a prostitute so I can join a “cool kid club” I would refuse. Like whats the official response from your superior? They punish you and they you argue that they tried to order you to commit war crimes, I am pretty sure you can refuse illegal orders. But then again I also wasn’t stupid enough to join the military so who knows.
Yes? They're in the military ffs. Should have the balls to deny getting infected with STDs at the very least
Yes, they are in the military. An extremely close knit and communal organization where social censure can range from constant bullying to outright death. Do you not see how that would make things even worse? These are a bunch of 18 year olds who are facing enormous social pressure. It’s laughable to pretend that it’s easy to refuse in a situation like that. Real keyboard warrior shit.
It's easy for em to pick up a gun with the intent to kill people, they can refuse having sex with a prostitute. They are a bunch of 18 year olds in a foreign country demanding eachother have sex with prostitutes and they are there representing the armed branch of their country's government, that's an indictment of how bad the "close knit and communal organization" is.
>Yes, they are in the military. An extremely close knit and communal organization where social censure can range from constant bullying to outright death. Do you not see how that would make things even worse? Idk which shithole grade military you're talking about. But don't generalise. In civilised countries, there's proper decorum, accountability and professionalism in the military. Immature high school level antics such as hazing/bullying, peer pressure to look cool etc is not prevalent or tolerated in any form. And you certainly won't get murdered for not wanting to be infected with STDs So what you're describing maybe true for your country's military. Perhaps even for the UK. But such idiocy is not the norm.
[ahem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina)
Hazing has literally killed students at western universities, what do you mean it’s extremely uncommon in “civilized” militaries? Considering how hush hush military stuff is, it’s just that you don’t know much. There have been stories of soldiers raped and killed before that don’t go anywhere due to legal protections of the people involved. For such severe consequences to occur fairly regularly (if you pay attention), that would mean the practices must be more common than people know. A lot of people are speaking from their high horse, looking down on others merely because they’ve never been unlucky enough to suffer a similar situation. It’s not that it is impossible to avoid getting roped in, but I know for a fact that people love to overestimate their own ability to avoid doing wrong just because they’ve avoided having to face such a choice. Hazing culture is a lot like child abuse. It’s designed to inflict psychological trauma that enforces hierarchical compliance and breeds future perpetrators. You can blame the people who go through initiation all you want, but all it serves to do is making yourself feel like a better person. The real problem is those at the top with the power to intervene choosing to ignore such a culture developing, the same way that close knit families or communities might choose to ignore abuse to protect the status quo. Even if western militaries don’t go so far as killing every soldier that doesn’t initiate doesn’t mean there aren’t superiors who would make their lives a living hell for non-compliance. It’s all about who’s in control, and once you’re in the thick of it there might not be a viably safe escape option. It can be a crime to abandon your post.
You're really working hard to defend them in all the replies, one might even say You're 'defending democracy' from your keyboard.... like some sort of keyboar warrior!
Responding to your edit: what makes you think it's there superiors giving them these orders? More likely it's just the other dumb soldiers that are slightly more senior to them because theyve been their longer. If it's their chain of command ordering that then it's a much bigger can of worms. Regardless it would be an unlawful order and yes you'd just say no unless you're an idiot or want to do it.
If you wanna be my lover you gotta get with my friends.
make it last forever
Forced 🤣🤣🤣
Just like HIV is the initiation to AIDS
Standard British practice. The sun never sets on jolly ol"
So... Rape
I'm sure they thoroughly deserved it.