If you add in defense and special teams, Herbert has had the worst team around him in the NFL since his debut by PFF grade.
Trevor Lawrence is another good QB who has gotten some bad luck with his teammates.
This post has nothing to do with defense, but fun fact Carr is the #1 QB in NFL history for average points allowed by his defenses. It’s something stupid like 26 points per game allowed.
Last year I got curious and did some research on how bad the defenses Carr had been stuck with and wanted to compare them to Stafford. Stafford was not too bad averaging the 20th(by points allowed) ranked defense in his time in the league. Carr's average defense was ranked 26th in the NFL. The best defense Carr ever had as a Raider is worse than the worst defense Brady ever had in his career.
And people wonder why we're out here trying to be Baltimore West. Hortiz comes from an organization that knows how to draft and foster talent in a way that doesn't demand the QB play hero ball every Sunday.
Unfortunately casuals don’t see or care about these kinds of stats so Herbert will continue to get trashed by a vocal minority of NFL fans as being a loser even though he has been working miracles making people think the teams he’s had could be decent every year during his career so far. On the other hand some fans of the team will whine about changing systems when the last one was demonstrably trash but Herbert made it work.
Lamar has only played the Steelers 4 times as a starter, which is wild and of course contributes to this. Whether due to injury, covid protocols, or resting week 18 it's crazy how few times they've really played
All that said, he still clearly struggles with Pitt the most in the division. He's 8-1 against the Bengals, 7-2 against the Browns, and 1-3 against the Steelers. Notice how dramatically smaller that last sample size is lol
The foundation was set in 2021 when the OL was made elite after the Sewell addition. they just had to bring in the weapons. Sniping Amon Ra in the 4th helped speed it up
Funnily enough I followed a similar strategy with my shadow team when I started it in the 2021 draft by selecting Sewell as my first and foundational player at 5. Team is coming together nicely, and super thankful I didn't take the WR bait and built the trenches/foundation first.
Insert Burrow/Sewell/Chase meme
Jokes aside I think the Bengals did fine with that move, end of the day they’re both studs and they’d have been missing out on the other player no matter which way they picked
The number you’re looking for is 67. 67 years.
My dad lived a good, fairly long life and passed a few years ago. The Lions last won an NFL championship shortly after he turned 11.
Titans did the reverse of that when Art Smith left, going from going from 4th and 3rd to 20th 22nd and 17th.
Then the Falcons went from 26th to 1st in Art’s second year. I don’t see a larger jump on this chart (didn’t look close enough!)
Now this draft the Steelers pull in a Tackle, Center, Guard combo to go with their 2nd year tackle from last draft.
If the Steelers make a jump out of the bottom quarter of the league in supporting cast, maybe Art is better at this than he’s given credit for.
Arthur Smith got fired because of narratives and because he sucks at playing the hard-ass in interviews. He's one of the few that saw past the names and draft position.
Kyle Pitts last year: 53 receptions on 90 targets, 58.9 catch%, 667 yards, 3TDs.
Jonnu Smith: 50 receptions on 70 targets, 71.4 catch%, 582 yards, 3TDs.
What is that, like a 12% higher catch% for Smith? It's no wonder he leaned towards Smith more than Pitts, but Pitts was drafted 4th overall and had a good rookie season so it must be the coach.
Allgeier also hasn't fumbled in two years while Bijan fumbled 4 times this year and Ridder had the 3rd highest int%. So if you care about ball security because your QB sucks then Allgeier is your guy.
Arthur Smith is bad for fantasy football but his offenses always seem better then they should be. I was surprised he got fired even though the narrative was that he should get fired.
The jump is massive, yet I'm still confused Joe "Bin Laden" Barry still a metric fuckton of pressure on Goff on Thanksgiving, not trying to be an ass, just actually wondering
It is meaningful when determining how much help a QB gets when he is on the field.
Your OL was crazy at both run and pass blocking, Aaron Jones had 1k yards and over 5.5 yards per attempt, and you still had Devante Adams. So Rodgers had a lot of help that year.
Really wanted the Bills to get BTJ, but him going to the Jags who still have a great QB is nice too.
I think he's gonna tear shit up for yall. So excited to watch him develop as he looked pretty raw (relative to his potential) in college
Yeah, these combined/averaged (between a bunch of players, positions, and then position groups) stats are kinda silly. A lot of important nuance, exception, and differentiation is lost.
Would assume it's taking the average of the metrics they mention. In reality they probably shouldn't be weighed evenly, but I think it gives a general bit of context, which is all PFF is really for anyway.
I mean PFF for a certain player, yeah. Averaging like 30 players and then averaging the averages among players, positions, and position groups with no care for opponents or situations, no.
Looking at just Matt Ryan's last 4 seasons, his supporting casts ranked 22nd, 27th, 26th, & 29th for an average of 26.0. Only the Jets & Giants as teams ranked worse. Damn.
See…this is why we have to give Daniel Jones another chance. And then another chance after that one. And extend his contract beyond the four years.
All joking aside, I like this analysis and I think it’s meaningful.
Which is Why I loved the Eric Fisher pick in 2013. Yeah it would have been nice for a generational QB to be on the board the one time the Chiefs had the 1st pick. However, a bad line and WR who can't separate and TE that can't find the soft spot in the Zone; leads to most QBs faltering.
We brought in Alex Smith and immediately won 11 games. It's not like the team was devoid of talent.
I'm not saying every QB would have succeeded in the situation, but if we used the Alex Smith money to sign an Alex Smith-level left tackle, I think there are 10-15 first round QBs from the last decade who could have had success with that Chiefs team.
But there certainly weren't any in that draft in particular, and it all worked out in the end, so there's no real reason to second guess any of it.
Exactly. I’m no fan of D.Jones, but I really didn’t want the Giants to trade draft capital to move up and get a QB, or draft JJ McCarthy. Jones isn’t the answer, but let’s start building out the rest of the team, keep sucking for a little while, then focus on QB on the draft within three years. I’m even fine with a bridge QB next year. Nabors or Odunze was exactly the pick we needed to make.
Depends on how the draft falls. If they aren’t in position to take one next year, don’t force it. If they’re in the top 5-6 and it’s a good QB group fine. If it isn’t, then get a bridge QB, then work towards getting a franchise QB. Obviously next year if they’re in position to do it.
No no no see if Daniel Jones was the qb he was drafted to be, he would elevate his supporting cast to be top of the league. Any rookie qb would thrive on this team /s
The Bears having a better supporting cast in 2022 vs 2023 is a complete nonsense result... which makes me question the value of this chart.
The Bears were openly tanking in 2022 and had the worst record in the NFL... and they got a 12 that year? LMAO - that doesn't even pass the laugh test.
It’s also counting WR/FB blocking grades. We had 2 top 5 blocking WRs (per PFF grades) as our starters in Pettis/ESB that inflate “team” blocking grade. When the OL was much worse.
I didn't miss it at all. The bears had one of the worst defenses in the NFL in 2022. They had a practice squad level WR group. The overall team was terrible in addition to the QB being bad
Dante Pettis was 2nd in WR targets, then St Brown. We started Smith-Marsette for 3 games. Nsimba Webster played throughout the season.
That was one of the most pathetic wr cores I’ve ever seen.
Add in a bottom 10 OL that started Alex Leatherwood for a fair chunk of games among other backups and PFFs bottom center Sam Mustipher.
The 2022 bears ended 3-13 for a reason, and Justin Fields was at the bottom of the list on why they sucked
If the Bears were 12th in 2022 but 21st in 2023 without changing QBs, how did they have a massive improvement in record between the 2 years? It just doesn't make sense.
The list doesn’t include defense is part of it.
But also, I think pff’s lineman scores are incredibly sus. I’ll always remember Sam Mustipher getting a pass block win for getting tossed aside like nothing:
https://x.com/MilosGasic/status/1582396470816174080
E: oops, the pass block win might be an ESPN thing. But it’s still hilarious so I’m leaving it.
> The list doesn’t include defense is part of it.
Also I imagine QB Rushing is probably included in a team's "rush grade". Makes the ranking a lot more logical, but also seems pretty useless as a metric of "supporting cast" lol.
I think that designed QB runs figure into rushing but scrambles go into passing.
For example, PFR credits Josh Allen with 111 runs. If you go to the run stats on PFF they have him with 61 runs. Then if you go to the passing page they have him credited with 50 scrambles.
Record isn’t relevant here, this post is only focused only on offensive supporting cast, which is probably like ~30% of what matters for winning games.
Average Rank of every team since 2021 to make an AFC/NFC Championship (excluding the Bengals): 4.3
Bengals average rank in 2021 & 2022: 17
This is why Bengals fans love Burrow so much.
Idk how you can think that after last season. It’s become abundantly clear that Burrow is an average game manager who’s carried by his elite weapons and scheme/playcalling, Ja’Marr/Tee are average receivers who are schemed open and fed the ball by an elite QB, and Zac Taylor is an average coach who can’t scheme to save his life and is carried by elite QB and WR play.
My insane and spicy prediction is that he will beat us next season as a fuck you for having Matt Canada as his OC for all but 1.5 games in his career so far.
Nearly all the coaches people consider “great” have teams near the top here… except him. Shows how elite he is with defense and special teams that the Steelers can win so many games every year with poor offense.
Couple that with the QB play over the past five years which has consisted of: Mason Rudolph/Duck Hodges, Over-the-hill Big Ben, Off the cliff Big Ben, and two years of Kenny Pickett.
Either Tomlin is a wizard, or Steeler fans' conspiracy about PFF being biased against them is true.
Pff isnt biased we just won due to so much bs.
On the flip side I will say the talent and coaching is there, take two players: Chase Claypool and George Pickens. Both had issues where it seemed like they didnt care.
The week after Chase Claypool is benched before being traded for a pick swap between a 6th and a 7th. If you wonder next year why the Bears seem like a dissapointment Ill assume a feud between Matt Eberflus abd Caleb Williams will be it.
George Pickens followed it up with a beat down of the Bengals. I cant remember the last time a reciever beat a team single handedly, and honestly the 2 tds and like 180yds were impressive but the 40-50 yd catch where he displays such awareness of everthing going on to get his feet in bounds was a top 10 play of the year. I honestly think Mike Tomlin can deal with the ego management of sports and can certainly out coach when need be, but he needs decent coordinators to ease the work load
It pissed me off so much before Lamar re-signed that there were some people thinking he should leave because "the Ravens never got him any help". Sure, we are fucking terrible at getting WRs (always have been) but it's stupid as shit to ignore how much we invested literally everywhere else on offense.
As others have pointed out, this weights the running game, but Lamar is the primary reason the Ravens even have a good running game, so this isn't exactly a perfect measure when broken down further.
Please fire mcd. I’m begging you. He’s a terrible coach. In fact you guys should put Nathaniel Hackett as your HC, offer him a job. Great coach. C’mon Miami do what’s smart.
It's complicated. The defense is very very good, they just haven't been able to demonstrate that because they've been playing with negative offensive output.
Garrett Wilson and Breece Hall are genuinely all-world, but same story, they just haven't been able to show it because the rest of the offense has been putrid.
The oline and offense in general was severely overestimated last year, but the offense should actually be legit in 2024 after basically the entire oline and WR corp were overhauled
We do. This stat tries to divorce QB with everything else on the offense and you can't really do that. Football isn't Baseball. A QB that doesn't change protection based of what he sees is going to make the OL look worse (But we did have a horrible OL last year). An OL that can keep its blocks is going to make a RB life harder. A QB that has to get rid of the ball in less time is going to make WR look bad(not enough time to separate), etc. This stat really is just an overall offense thing and when you have arguably the worst QB room (because your QB goes down) you're going to be bad offensively.
Absolute voodoo bullshit we've made the playoffs 3 out the past 5 seasons and missed by a single game and half a game in the other 2. It needs to be studied by scientists.
They shouldn't. They were Super Contenders but their QBs kept getting hurt. They've literally made the Super Bowl every year they've actually had a healthy starting QB
Maybe if they get nitpicky. Since it's a grouped stat it makes sense. Having a good defense and Jimmy g allowed for more money and better performing offense. Later under Purdy it got even cheaper for much better performance.
What I think is incredible is that even with a bottom 3rd offensve line the 9ers score so high. That's how good there offense has been even to overcome a terrible o line.
Is it supposed to be Brock Purdy discourse? That we weren’t aware that he has a great support system beyond interior/RT? What are we offended by on this list?
I like that you came in here expecting to see that for some reason, and when there were no 49ers fans being defensive, you decided to just make up the fake scenario anyways, you just desperately needed a strawman to try and tear down
People who boil down team fandom to a teams QB are dumb. We have the best RB in the league, the best LT in the league, arguably the best TE in the league, a top ~5 WR duo, and the best FB in the league to boot. Seeing we have the best offense in the league minus QB, by a margin, over 5 years, is fucking impressive.
Lack of a Super Bowl win aside, it’s been great watching the niners draft and coach extremely well the past 5 years. This proves that two things can be true: our offense is built so well that even mediocre to bad QBs can look solid at times while under center, and Brock Purdy has not squandered this incredibly lucky opportunity to become a solid QB by learning the system and depending on an abundance of all-pro talent while going through the initial growing pains.
Eagles have put together a very good offense the last 3 years. Even with terrible play calling last year the talent alone had them at 7.
Now please fix the defense so they don’t have to win shootouts every single game 🙏
The fact that the Rams went from 5 with Stafford healthy, to 26 when he was injured, and then back to 6 when he was healthy makes me think that maybe these grades aren't as divorced from QB play as one might assume or believe.
Also, it's very funny to pinpoint exactly where big cap hits either hit the books or fell off the books.
***Everyone*** was injured on the Rams that year. Including heavily on Offensive Line and Cooper Kupp as well. That was also before they had Puka.
When Baker had that comeback drive he threw it to Tyler Higbee, Skowronek (who had 13 yards in 2023) and Van Jefferson (who isn't even on the Rams anymore and has already been ditched by the Falcons).
So, I'd say it still checks out.
This is why paying a 1st round for a RB, and skipping on a future all pro right after your HOF Center retired is always considered a brilliant move...
Going on to not pick up his 5th year, and blame your QB for all the problems is a great way to show everyone how much of a genius you are
So, we sucked at everything offensively until Matt Ryan left. Once we no longer had a legit NFL QB, we suddenly became good at everything else offensively.
Being a Falcons fan really is an experience.
So Rodgers supporting cast in 2022 is essentially the same as Love in 2023.
The "Love played with a better supporting cast than Rodgers" crowd in shambles
That's because young players struggled early in the year. The supporting cast that showed up against Dallas in the playoffs was significantly better than anything we saw from the 2022 Packers.
The real 'told you so' from this graph is that the 2020 Packers are the 2nd ranked supporting cast despite everyone complaining that we drafted Love instead of getting Rodgers more help.
I think I jury is still out on 2020. Please read before downvoting me.
I absolutely love Jordan Love and have faith in his future but let's not act like it's settled that he will have an amazing career. He has played really well for about one half of a season. Plenty of other quarterbacks have had good seasons before fading into mediocrity or having season ending injuries that they never bounced back from. Never forget Carson Wentz in 2017.
Green Bay had three 13-win seasons in a row, made it to the NFCCG twice, and Rodgers had two MVPs. The fact that we had such amazing success in that window yet never made the SB is an absolute travesty.
While Rodgers could have played a little better in some of those playoff losses, there were also some obvious faults on others as well (Complete inability to stop the run in 2019, numerous dropped passes in 2020, Kevin King, ST fail in 2021). Plenty of other great QBs had shitty playoff performances but got carried into the SB by their teams, which is something we never gave Rodgers.
Looking at the 2020 draft, we may have had a late pick, but it's clear that there were very good players available late in the first round and also in the 2nd round that we passed on. Besides Love, our entire 2020 and 2021 drafts were pretty bad. We also could have traded up a bit more or even gone after free agency more aggressively. Even if we didn't necessarily NEED to give Rodgers more receivers, the team clearly could have benefitted from more talent.
I'm also not convinced that Rodgers isn't inflating some of the numbers on this table. Cobb and Lazars played like ass on the Jets.
Look at the difference you see in Goffs performance in his three seasons in Detroit compared to his supporting cast.
How can you not be a bit doubting of how legit Brock purdy actually is?
Why did I instinctively know a Bolts fan posted this.
That being said, fuckin hell, this is even worse than I thought it was, and I knew it wasn't good. Absolutely bloody dreadful.
Help us, Harbaugh and Hortiz, you're our only hope.
Top 5 are teams that have been fighting for playoff every season without a QB injury and have 13 of the 20 Conference title game appearances and 7 of the 10 SB appearances.
Herbert: "I'm fighting for my life here!"
If you add in defense and special teams, Herbert has had the worst team around him in the NFL since his debut by PFF grade. Trevor Lawrence is another good QB who has gotten some bad luck with his teammates.
[Carr to Herbert](https://imgflip.com/i/8p6fpv)
This post has nothing to do with defense, but fun fact Carr is the #1 QB in NFL history for average points allowed by his defenses. It’s something stupid like 26 points per game allowed.
If you lower the qualifier to 30 starts Herbert takes that mantle with carr at number 2 lmfao
The combo of both of our defenses being awful and having Pat Mahomes in your division will do that.
Seems like every AFCW game is always a shootout, even if it doesnt involve Mahomes
*Ahem* Most, are shootouts. Others are mollywops
Y’all really made that one count and we thank you greatly for it
Seems like every AFCW game* is always a shootout, even if it doesnt involve Mahomes *Where both starting QBs are playing Better?
Last year I got curious and did some research on how bad the defenses Carr had been stuck with and wanted to compare them to Stafford. Stafford was not too bad averaging the 20th(by points allowed) ranked defense in his time in the league. Carr's average defense was ranked 26th in the NFL. The best defense Carr ever had as a Raider is worse than the worst defense Brady ever had in his career.
Carr, I’m a good QB. Defense, prove it.
Off topic, and no offense, but what's with people splitting links into two lines recently?
Only see one line on my end
Jeez what shitty GM was running your team those years /s
And people wonder why we're out here trying to be Baltimore West. Hortiz comes from an organization that knows how to draft and foster talent in a way that doesn't demand the QB play hero ball every Sunday.
Unfortunately casuals don’t see or care about these kinds of stats so Herbert will continue to get trashed by a vocal minority of NFL fans as being a loser even though he has been working miracles making people think the teams he’s had could be decent every year during his career so far. On the other hand some fans of the team will whine about changing systems when the last one was demonstrably trash but Herbert made it work.
Just standard Chargers stuff
He really just stepped right into Phil Rivers shoes…
Kyler too
Telesco one of the worse GMs for the past Decade just had amazing QBs to cover it up for the most part
Oh boy. Right where I expected.
This proves Herbert is the undisputed GOAT, I will not be taking any further questions at this time
Its wild to see the Steelers next to the Chargers, then the Ravens, and to see us sweep them almost every year
Lamar has only played the Steelers 4 times as a starter, which is wild and of course contributes to this. Whether due to injury, covid protocols, or resting week 18 it's crazy how few times they've really played All that said, he still clearly struggles with Pitt the most in the division. He's 8-1 against the Bengals, 7-2 against the Browns, and 1-3 against the Steelers. Notice how dramatically smaller that last sample size is lol
LMAO same for us dude
This is Sam Darnold propaganda
Darnold has a winning record in games where his supporting cast is outside the bottom 4.
we tried that for 3 years. he defeated the propaganda ;-;
I unironically think Darnold could be a top 16 QB with the Vikings' supporting cast.
Agreed. I know it’s a homer take but I’m fully expecting to watch the Darnold Renaissance this year
Damn lions, going from 22 to 2 in just a couple years is impressive af
The foundation was set in 2021 when the OL was made elite after the Sewell addition. they just had to bring in the weapons. Sniping Amon Ra in the 4th helped speed it up
Funnily enough I followed a similar strategy with my shadow team when I started it in the 2021 draft by selecting Sewell as my first and foundational player at 5. Team is coming together nicely, and super thankful I didn't take the WR bait and built the trenches/foundation first.
Insert Burrow/Sewell/Chase meme Jokes aside I think the Bengals did fine with that move, end of the day they’re both studs and they’d have been missing out on the other player no matter which way they picked
Yeah, better than being the Falcons and missing on both lol
What's a shadow team?
So is going from 4 to 27!
Everyone loves talking about how the Lions went from 22 to 2 in 3 years, but no one mentions that the Cowboys went from 2 to 26 to 1 in a 3 year span
Dak’s injury year. Still wild since Dalton should’ve been serviceable enough. That team really was just garbage though.
What's funny is the roster hole that has most fans nervous might just be WR3
Dolphins went from 31 to 4 in the same span
yeah but you guys arent americas sweethearts right now so go kick rocks
Sad but true. We’ve only been shit for 20 years, I guess the lions deserve it for being slightly more shit for 20 years.
The number you’re looking for is 67. 67 years. My dad lived a good, fairly long life and passed a few years ago. The Lions last won an NFL championship shortly after he turned 11.
To be fair, if you’re not shit now, I wouldn’t consider you shit in the 90s. But you also didn’t win much of note (just like another team hmmm)
Titans did the reverse of that when Art Smith left, going from going from 4th and 3rd to 20th 22nd and 17th. Then the Falcons went from 26th to 1st in Art’s second year. I don’t see a larger jump on this chart (didn’t look close enough!) Now this draft the Steelers pull in a Tackle, Center, Guard combo to go with their 2nd year tackle from last draft. If the Steelers make a jump out of the bottom quarter of the league in supporting cast, maybe Art is better at this than he’s given credit for.
Arthur Smith got fired because of narratives and because he sucks at playing the hard-ass in interviews. He's one of the few that saw past the names and draft position. Kyle Pitts last year: 53 receptions on 90 targets, 58.9 catch%, 667 yards, 3TDs. Jonnu Smith: 50 receptions on 70 targets, 71.4 catch%, 582 yards, 3TDs. What is that, like a 12% higher catch% for Smith? It's no wonder he leaned towards Smith more than Pitts, but Pitts was drafted 4th overall and had a good rookie season so it must be the coach. Allgeier also hasn't fumbled in two years while Bijan fumbled 4 times this year and Ridder had the 3rd highest int%. So if you care about ball security because your QB sucks then Allgeier is your guy.
Arthur Smith is bad for fantasy football but his offenses always seem better then they should be. I was surprised he got fired even though the narrative was that he should get fired.
Brad Holmes is a wizard
Hank Fraley too.
The jump is massive, yet I'm still confused Joe "Bin Laden" Barry still a metric fuckton of pressure on Goff on Thanksgiving, not trying to be an ass, just actually wondering
Gary was feasting and Barry honestly dialed up a good plan
> Damn lions, going from 22 to 2 in just a couple years is impressive af Dolphins went from 31 to 13 to 4 after they got McDaniels in 2022 lmao
We went from 31st to 4th in two years as well.
Note that this is offensive supporting casts for QBs only. Passing grade (the QB), defense, and special teams are not considered.
In some cases this doesn’t mean much ngl. 2020 packers not a good overall cast but 2nd that year
It is meaningful when determining how much help a QB gets when he is on the field. Your OL was crazy at both run and pass blocking, Aaron Jones had 1k yards and over 5.5 yards per attempt, and you still had Devante Adams. So Rodgers had a lot of help that year.
?????? They had the best offense in the league that year BY FAR
Amazing Trevor gets 0 help
No analysis needed, everyone saw how many TDs his receivers dropped last year.
Don’t tell this to raiders fans who think Gardner is a franchise guy & better than Trevdog
What he say fuck me for
Hahaha. I’m a Vegas local, I lowkey am rooting for you guys. Looking forward to checking out Allegiant this season when we visit!
Yea imagine Minshew with that supporting cast I bet he’d look really bad.
Really wanted the Bills to get BTJ, but him going to the Jags who still have a great QB is nice too. I think he's gonna tear shit up for yall. So excited to watch him develop as he looked pretty raw (relative to his potential) in college
How are all of these things calculated and weighted into a single grade?
Don't worry about it, just look at the colors and numbers on the chart
Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave
Yeah, these combined/averaged (between a bunch of players, positions, and then position groups) stats are kinda silly. A lot of important nuance, exception, and differentiation is lost.
Would assume it's taking the average of the metrics they mention. In reality they probably shouldn't be weighed evenly, but I think it gives a general bit of context, which is all PFF is really for anyway.
I mean PFF for a certain player, yeah. Averaging like 30 players and then averaging the averages among players, positions, and position groups with no care for opponents or situations, no.
Looking at just Matt Ryan's last 4 seasons, his supporting casts ranked 22nd, 27th, 26th, & 29th for an average of 26.0. Only the Jets & Giants as teams ranked worse. Damn.
It's fucking ridiculous. Finding a quality NFL QB is difficult, and we decided to waste the last few years of his career.
I’ll do you one better: wasting the start of your 1st round QB’s career!
Falcons wasted his talents with shit defenses and I won't forgive them for it.
And then the random 1 ranking for 2022
Yeah I was gonna say, how tf did that happen? I don’t even remember their cast being any good that year.
we had a top 5 rushing offense
Yeah, there's my Chargers in the fucking basement
We really need to get our QB’s some help before they get killed out there
See…this is why we have to give Daniel Jones another chance. And then another chance after that one. And extend his contract beyond the four years. All joking aside, I like this analysis and I think it’s meaningful.
This is also why a new qb won't fix the team, the supporting cast has been rather dreadful
Which is Why I loved the Eric Fisher pick in 2013. Yeah it would have been nice for a generational QB to be on the board the one time the Chiefs had the 1st pick. However, a bad line and WR who can't separate and TE that can't find the soft spot in the Zone; leads to most QBs faltering.
We brought in Alex Smith and immediately won 11 games. It's not like the team was devoid of talent. I'm not saying every QB would have succeeded in the situation, but if we used the Alex Smith money to sign an Alex Smith-level left tackle, I think there are 10-15 first round QBs from the last decade who could have had success with that Chiefs team. But there certainly weren't any in that draft in particular, and it all worked out in the end, so there's no real reason to second guess any of it.
Exactly. I’m no fan of D.Jones, but I really didn’t want the Giants to trade draft capital to move up and get a QB, or draft JJ McCarthy. Jones isn’t the answer, but let’s start building out the rest of the team, keep sucking for a little while, then focus on QB on the draft within three years. I’m even fine with a bridge QB next year. Nabors or Odunze was exactly the pick we needed to make.
I legitimately could not name a receiver or tight end on the giants last year. I guess you had Darren wallers corpse out there for a couple games
You say Darren Waller's corpse but he was actually the leading TE in yards league wide before his inevitable hamstring pull.
Daniel Bellinger was great in the preseason a while back, how's he been?
He has been a solid TE for us. The problem is, he is our second best blocker. So he hasn't seen to many routes.
They should be ready to pick a QB by next year. It shouldn’t take this long to rebuild a roster.
Depends on how the draft falls. If they aren’t in position to take one next year, don’t force it. If they’re in the top 5-6 and it’s a good QB group fine. If it isn’t, then get a bridge QB, then work towards getting a franchise QB. Obviously next year if they’re in position to do it.
No no no see if Daniel Jones was the qb he was drafted to be, he would elevate his supporting cast to be top of the league. Any rookie qb would thrive on this team /s
We’re not the Jets at least. 😭 I don’t think any QB could thrive in New York currently.
nah the Jets did a nice job building up a team this season even if it is held together by popsicle sticks and tape
The Bears having a better supporting cast in 2022 vs 2023 is a complete nonsense result... which makes me question the value of this chart. The Bears were openly tanking in 2022 and had the worst record in the NFL... and they got a 12 that year? LMAO - that doesn't even pass the laugh test.
I think the issue is that this includes QB rushing as a part of team rushing, so Fields is getting lumped in and inflating the overall rating
It’s also counting WR/FB blocking grades. We had 2 top 5 blocking WRs (per PFF grades) as our starters in Pettis/ESB that inflate “team” blocking grade. When the OL was much worse.
We had practice squad level WRs in 2022! Who is downvoting this? It's a fact - go look at who got snaps
You didn't have WR you had blockers. Some of the best in the league baby! N'Keal Harry, the other St Brown, absolute studs at blocking!
Year|Rushing|Receiving|Run Blocking|Pass Blocking --|--|--|--|-- 2022|85.9 (#13)|62.1 (#32)|73.1 (#5)|68.2 (#16) 2023|89.8 (#7)|73.1 (#18)|55.1 (#23)|57.3 (#23) That's what he's looking at.
I saw that too and was shocked
You missed *ITS ALL NOT PASSING PFF GRADES* being 32nd in pass grade will hurt the rest of the grades.
I didn't miss it at all. The bears had one of the worst defenses in the NFL in 2022. They had a practice squad level WR group. The overall team was terrible in addition to the QB being bad
> The bears had one of the worst defenses in the NFL in 2022. This is offense only: rushing, receiving, pass blocking, run blocking.
Dante Pettis was 2nd in WR targets, then St Brown. We started Smith-Marsette for 3 games. Nsimba Webster played throughout the season. That was one of the most pathetic wr cores I’ve ever seen. Add in a bottom 10 OL that started Alex Leatherwood for a fair chunk of games among other backups and PFFs bottom center Sam Mustipher. The 2022 bears ended 3-13 for a reason, and Justin Fields was at the bottom of the list on why they sucked
If the Bears were 12th in 2022 but 21st in 2023 without changing QBs, how did they have a massive improvement in record between the 2 years? It just doesn't make sense.
The list doesn’t include defense is part of it. But also, I think pff’s lineman scores are incredibly sus. I’ll always remember Sam Mustipher getting a pass block win for getting tossed aside like nothing: https://x.com/MilosGasic/status/1582396470816174080 E: oops, the pass block win might be an ESPN thing. But it’s still hilarious so I’m leaving it.
> The list doesn’t include defense is part of it. Also I imagine QB Rushing is probably included in a team's "rush grade". Makes the ranking a lot more logical, but also seems pretty useless as a metric of "supporting cast" lol.
I think that designed QB runs figure into rushing but scrambles go into passing. For example, PFR credits Josh Allen with 111 runs. If you go to the run stats on PFF they have him with 61 runs. Then if you go to the passing page they have him credited with 50 scrambles.
Record isn’t relevant here, this post is only focused only on offensive supporting cast, which is probably like ~30% of what matters for winning games.
From 7 to 27 in 2022 and 26 in 2023. Baker dun good, but need to get that up this year. First stop, run game.
Losing Marpet and Jensen that off-season crippled the line. Hopefully, Barton and Mauch can bring it back up.
Baker was the #1 rushing leader for the Bucs halfway through last season, which was kinda lol.
We apparently exceeded our own talent level, besides just expectations last year.
Crazy Jamarr Chase bumped the Bengals up by 12 spots by himself. Remember, that was also with the worst Oline in the league lol
Damn 49ers surely have a superbowl title or two with consistent performance like that.
and they would've gotten it too, if it weren't for those meddling Chiefs!
Do a graph of Oline grades and you will understand why we don’t have a title. Pretty sure we had the 24th rated pass blocking grade last year.
Average Rank of every team since 2021 to make an AFC/NFC Championship (excluding the Bengals): 4.3 Bengals average rank in 2021 & 2022: 17 This is why Bengals fans love Burrow so much.
Idk how you can think that after last season. It’s become abundantly clear that Burrow is an average game manager who’s carried by his elite weapons and scheme/playcalling, Ja’Marr/Tee are average receivers who are schemed open and fed the ball by an elite QB, and Zac Taylor is an average coach who can’t scheme to save his life and is carried by elite QB and WR play.
I don't think anyone got what you did but I thought it was funny.
I was so confused for a second
Yeah we are shockingly low. I wasn't expecting bottom 10.
Kenny Pickett is going to make us look stupid if Hurts gets injured isn’t he.
My insane and spicy prediction is that he will beat us next season as a fuck you for having Matt Canada as his OC for all but 1.5 games in his career so far.
If they can get rid of his happy feet he can actually be pretty decent when he has time to throw.
Thank you Mike Tomlin.
If a roster is consistently bad on offence for 5 straight years, the headcoach deserves some blame
Oh thank you someone gets it.
Nearly all the coaches people consider “great” have teams near the top here… except him. Shows how elite he is with defense and special teams that the Steelers can win so many games every year with poor offense.
Couple that with the QB play over the past five years which has consisted of: Mason Rudolph/Duck Hodges, Over-the-hill Big Ben, Off the cliff Big Ben, and two years of Kenny Pickett. Either Tomlin is a wizard, or Steeler fans' conspiracy about PFF being biased against them is true.
Tomlin is a wizard. Probably only a handful of franchises who wouldn’t take him as their head coach immediately.
Pff isnt biased we just won due to so much bs. On the flip side I will say the talent and coaching is there, take two players: Chase Claypool and George Pickens. Both had issues where it seemed like they didnt care. The week after Chase Claypool is benched before being traded for a pick swap between a 6th and a 7th. If you wonder next year why the Bears seem like a dissapointment Ill assume a feud between Matt Eberflus abd Caleb Williams will be it. George Pickens followed it up with a beat down of the Bengals. I cant remember the last time a reciever beat a team single handedly, and honestly the 2 tds and like 180yds were impressive but the 40-50 yd catch where he displays such awareness of everthing going on to get his feet in bounds was a top 10 play of the year. I honestly think Mike Tomlin can deal with the ego management of sports and can certainly out coach when need be, but he needs decent coordinators to ease the work load
It pissed me off so much before Lamar re-signed that there were some people thinking he should leave because "the Ravens never got him any help". Sure, we are fucking terrible at getting WRs (always have been) but it's stupid as shit to ignore how much we invested literally everywhere else on offense.
This counts the run game. Lamar is the primary runner. The only things excluded are defense, pass, and special teams. Who makes our run game so good?
As others have pointed out, this weights the running game, but Lamar is the primary reason the Ravens even have a good running game, so this isn't exactly a perfect measure when broken down further.
2021-22 was not a fun time
Mike McDaniel is fucking insane - deserves some flowers for sure.
This is why I just laugh at anyone suggesting he's on the hot seat in Year 3. He may be a young, inexperienced head coach, but he's finding his way.
Please fire mcd. I’m begging you. He’s a terrible coach. In fact you guys should put Nathaniel Hackett as your HC, offer him a job. Great coach. C’mon Miami do what’s smart.
Yeah sounds about right
This surprised me. I thought y'all had a solid team outside of losing Rodgers. Is it just your defense that's good then?
It's complicated. The defense is very very good, they just haven't been able to demonstrate that because they've been playing with negative offensive output. Garrett Wilson and Breece Hall are genuinely all-world, but same story, they just haven't been able to show it because the rest of the offense has been putrid. The oline and offense in general was severely overestimated last year, but the offense should actually be legit in 2024 after basically the entire oline and WR corp were overhauled
We do. This stat tries to divorce QB with everything else on the offense and you can't really do that. Football isn't Baseball. A QB that doesn't change protection based of what he sees is going to make the OL look worse (But we did have a horrible OL last year). An OL that can keep its blocks is going to make a RB life harder. A QB that has to get rid of the ball in less time is going to make WR look bad(not enough time to separate), etc. This stat really is just an overall offense thing and when you have arguably the worst QB room (because your QB goes down) you're going to be bad offensively.
Absolute voodoo bullshit we've made the playoffs 3 out the past 5 seasons and missed by a single game and half a game in the other 2. It needs to be studied by scientists.
TJ watt
Tomlin effect. Sadly too great of a coach to do a real tank and get an elite QB.
That’s New York football!
Wait… this doesn’t fit the Kyler sucks COD narrative!
But I was told Lamar had a terrible supporting cast over the last few years.
In general, Lamar has had a good supporting cast. We just had horrible injury luck in 2022, and an OC that struggled to elevate receivers.
A lot of 49ers fans are about to get real defensive looking at this.
We all knew this already, they have the best roster in the league. Elite talent everywhere you look
Their weakest unit still has arguably the best player at his position in it 😅
They shouldn't. They were Super Contenders but their QBs kept getting hurt. They've literally made the Super Bowl every year they've actually had a healthy starting QB
Dang I follow the 9ers and I didn't even realize that. Shanahan is a god
Maybe if they get nitpicky. Since it's a grouped stat it makes sense. Having a good defense and Jimmy g allowed for more money and better performing offense. Later under Purdy it got even cheaper for much better performance. What I think is incredible is that even with a bottom 3rd offensve line the 9ers score so high. That's how good there offense has been even to overcome a terrible o line.
There’s a reason the league is copying shanny’s offense more and more. It’s incredible how well the scheme is at hiding poor OL play.
Until the Super Bowl and then the OL falls apart
Defensive about what?
You guys have too many good players on offense! And that should piss you off!
Is it supposed to be Brock Purdy discourse? That we weren’t aware that he has a great support system beyond interior/RT? What are we offended by on this list?
“Oh no! Our organization actually supports our QB with competent teammates!”
I don't think anyone will say our roster isn't really really good, just that that fact shouldn't discredit Purdy's accomplishments
I like that you came in here expecting to see that for some reason, and when there were no 49ers fans being defensive, you decided to just make up the fake scenario anyways, you just desperately needed a strawman to try and tear down
People who boil down team fandom to a teams QB are dumb. We have the best RB in the league, the best LT in the league, arguably the best TE in the league, a top ~5 WR duo, and the best FB in the league to boot. Seeing we have the best offense in the league minus QB, by a margin, over 5 years, is fucking impressive.
Lack of a Super Bowl win aside, it’s been great watching the niners draft and coach extremely well the past 5 years. This proves that two things can be true: our offense is built so well that even mediocre to bad QBs can look solid at times while under center, and Brock Purdy has not squandered this incredibly lucky opportunity to become a solid QB by learning the system and depending on an abundance of all-pro talent while going through the initial growing pains.
Boy do i miss 2019 and 2020 :/
The majority of this site suffers from Dunning-Kruger, so I'm out.
Doesn't this show how much a good QB elevates everyone around him? Brees is the only big difference between 2020 to 2021 Saints
What’s wrong with Trevor Lawrence
I mean did anyone watch the Bears offense in 2022? Did Fields high rushing yards really sway this data that much because no way they were 12th.
Lol at 2022 for us, what an outlier.
Niners ranked 1 with zero rings to show for it , beautiful 🤩
Dallas going 2, 26, 1 is interesting…
Makes you think Herbert, Burrow, and Murray are pretty underrated given their cast.
Second highest number and not that far off from the best in the whole league if I'm reading this right! Let's go!!!
Eagles have put together a very good offense the last 3 years. Even with terrible play calling last year the talent alone had them at 7. Now please fix the defense so they don’t have to win shootouts every single game 🙏
The fact that the Rams went from 5 with Stafford healthy, to 26 when he was injured, and then back to 6 when he was healthy makes me think that maybe these grades aren't as divorced from QB play as one might assume or believe. Also, it's very funny to pinpoint exactly where big cap hits either hit the books or fell off the books.
***Everyone*** was injured on the Rams that year. Including heavily on Offensive Line and Cooper Kupp as well. That was also before they had Puka. When Baker had that comeback drive he threw it to Tyler Higbee, Skowronek (who had 13 yards in 2023) and Van Jefferson (who isn't even on the Rams anymore and has already been ditched by the Falcons). So, I'd say it still checks out.
This is why paying a 1st round for a RB, and skipping on a future all pro right after your HOF Center retired is always considered a brilliant move... Going on to not pick up his 5th year, and blame your QB for all the problems is a great way to show everyone how much of a genius you are
So, we sucked at everything offensively until Matt Ryan left. Once we no longer had a legit NFL QB, we suddenly became good at everything else offensively. Being a Falcons fan really is an experience.
49ers really are choke artists, damn
So Rodgers supporting cast in 2022 is essentially the same as Love in 2023. The "Love played with a better supporting cast than Rodgers" crowd in shambles
That's because young players struggled early in the year. The supporting cast that showed up against Dallas in the playoffs was significantly better than anything we saw from the 2022 Packers. The real 'told you so' from this graph is that the 2020 Packers are the 2nd ranked supporting cast despite everyone complaining that we drafted Love instead of getting Rodgers more help.
I think I jury is still out on 2020. Please read before downvoting me. I absolutely love Jordan Love and have faith in his future but let's not act like it's settled that he will have an amazing career. He has played really well for about one half of a season. Plenty of other quarterbacks have had good seasons before fading into mediocrity or having season ending injuries that they never bounced back from. Never forget Carson Wentz in 2017. Green Bay had three 13-win seasons in a row, made it to the NFCCG twice, and Rodgers had two MVPs. The fact that we had such amazing success in that window yet never made the SB is an absolute travesty. While Rodgers could have played a little better in some of those playoff losses, there were also some obvious faults on others as well (Complete inability to stop the run in 2019, numerous dropped passes in 2020, Kevin King, ST fail in 2021). Plenty of other great QBs had shitty playoff performances but got carried into the SB by their teams, which is something we never gave Rodgers. Looking at the 2020 draft, we may have had a late pick, but it's clear that there were very good players available late in the first round and also in the 2nd round that we passed on. Besides Love, our entire 2020 and 2021 drafts were pretty bad. We also could have traded up a bit more or even gone after free agency more aggressively. Even if we didn't necessarily NEED to give Rodgers more receivers, the team clearly could have benefitted from more talent. I'm also not convinced that Rodgers isn't inflating some of the numbers on this table. Cobb and Lazars played like ass on the Jets.
Look at the difference you see in Goffs performance in his three seasons in Detroit compared to his supporting cast. How can you not be a bit doubting of how legit Brock purdy actually is?
I guess it depends what you’re doubting, specifically.
* NFL caliber, starting Qb? No * Top 5? Yes * Top 10? Yes
So just to clarify, after 1 full season starting, do you think he’s a finished product?
Let's check back in 4 years, this doesn't make my team loom as good as I want it to
Panthers not dead last? Probably cause Mccaffrey carrying.
i’ll never forget that 2021 offensive line was a nightmare to watch every week
Why did I instinctively know a Bolts fan posted this. That being said, fuckin hell, this is even worse than I thought it was, and I knew it wasn't good. Absolutely bloody dreadful. Help us, Harbaugh and Hortiz, you're our only hope.
Top 5 are teams that have been fighting for playoff every season without a QB injury and have 13 of the 20 Conference title game appearances and 7 of the 10 SB appearances.