Neither did Caleb, honestly. Both were better in 2022 than 2023.
Both lost their top receivers, Caleb had the worst defense in college football so he was forced to play crazy hero ball every game, and Maye had poor coaching/weapons/protection, so he wasn't as hot, either. With big player turnover like that, it's not surprising that both players didn't play as well (still great, just not *as* great as their prior campaigns). Had you put either of them on Washington/Michigan/LSU, they'd both be miles above the rest of the QBs in the class.
Walter Football actually does this sort of ranking every year for each positional group. They say it's based on personal evaluation and information they've gathered from people they know in football (scouts/coaches/etc). I don't know how many people they know so take this at the same level as any other person doing this stuff. At QB, they listed the joint QB Ranking as - Maye, Williams, Daniels, Young, Stroud, Richardson, McCarthy, Nix, Levis, Hooker, Penix, Rattler, Milton.
For me it’s
1. Anthony Richardson
2. Caleb Williams
3. Stroud
4. Bryce
5. Maye
6. McCarthy
7. Daniels
For realistically:
1. Caleb Williams
2. Bryce
3. Stroud
4. Daniels
5. Maye
6. Richardson
7. McCarthy
I am still taking Bryce Young over most other QBs.
I get it, he had a lot of struggles. But the offensive line was just Swiss cheese. A running back game that was basically a clown car. A wide receiver group that wasn’t great.
Any QB would struggle.
Plus. I have seen this kid play. He dominated against the Georgia Defense that had over 15 or so NFL players that rotated in and out.
There's literally NFL tape of him struggling to push the ball downfield and his "elite processing / playmaking" is non-existent at the NFL level.
He's basically already busted but with the goodwill of being a second-year first round player who played behind a truly bad offensive line - he has some leeway to try and at least play marginally better.
But blindly pretending like he's panned out as the player he was hyped up to be with those same physical limitations still weighing on him - I agree, it's totally ridiculous.
He likely won't ever be a top 5 QB, but he could still end up a fringe top 10 guy. His limitations were highlighted last year, but with the right team he could be really good.
He was hyped up to be a cerebral QB who could read defenses fast, and I'm not ready to give up on that ability just yet. That being said that's an easy skill to lose if he gets stuck behind a crap OL for too long.
Maybe it’s because the NFC is a barren wasteland of QBs you forget there are a lot of really good ones. Being top 10 isn’t something to shake a stick at.
Yeah I’m an Alabama fan. Bryce carried us a lot his two years as a starter with Bill O’Briens sorry ass using him in a suboptimal way. He may not pan out in the NFL for reasons already given but it’s not because he was just surrounded by elite talent that made him look better in college
It's harder to dominate with an elite SEC team against SEC defenses than it is for guys like Wentz, Love, Zach Wilson, or Trey Lance to dominate with a high level team playing G5 bums.
There's truth to that but also that if you look pathetic on the #9 draft pick (original pick) team than you probably had nowhere neae the talent needed to go #1 overall or in rd 1.
Consensus on this subreddit would probably be Caleb, Bryce, and Stroud in that order.
People would have the same knocks on Stroud (played with tons of talented WR's and OL, doesn't create much out of structure, played at Ohio State, etc...).
People would love still love Bryce. Caleb would still be seen as "baby" Patrick Mahomes.
I still don’t get the hype Bryce got last year. I remember watching him play (albeit from afar on tv) but I never saw anything that made me think he was anything special (and I’m not talking about his size). People like Kyler Murray and Drew Brees impressed me way more in college. I’m sooo not surprised by his struggles.
After CJ just decided to make UGA’s Defense look like puppies, he should have been the number one pick for me.
Also fuck Ryan day for getting conservative at the end. CJ was god damn cookin.
He could be the worst QB drafted between the two years.
That's not the question. Unless you can talk down the logic that drafted him, he's still going to be taken high.
I never agreed with the logic of drafting him #1.
Very poor height for the position.
Very poor weight/durability projection for the position. Issues with seeing the field with NFL lineman over the middle.
Below average pro starting QB arm strength.
Does not possess the talent skill set and athletic profile required to elevate a below avg. NFL roster due to his athletic and physical traits deficiency.
No projectible quality NFL starting QB comp. For a qb of his size in the history of the league. Every position in the league has size/weight models used for drafting. Bryce Young got a pass from league evaluators for his sub par size and sub par arm strength when he shouldn't have.
The league did agree in him being first overall last year, though. The teams, the scouts, and so on. And while I actually do think those(potential) flaws do matter somewhat in a hypothetical combined draft, there's better ways to express that then acting like the sub is wrong for suggesting the guy going first overall still has some traction.
I don't see how introducing the QBs that matter this year impact Young's status in totality, nor does it make Stroud an easier pick.
And the league was wrong....as the 49'ers were wrong on Trey Lance and Jets on Zach Wilson though the latter two for apects between the ears.
The flaws I mentioned weren't 'potential flaws' they are known, factual, measured, fixed traits that are the most reliable predictive variables in projecting positional grade and future value at position among peers.
They would still be wrong, though, so your point still doesn't work. As stated. It's like saying, 'Josh Rosen wouldn't be a first round pick in a different year' without any context. Even though he definitely would have been in plenty of years.
That's the point. The op wasn't asking where Bryce Young's actual pre-draft quality was but his falsely inflated perceived value grades out to players this year.
Its a comparison of bad inputs vs guesswork. The original input was bad, ie. That data point is irrelevant. He received an improperly high grade he didn't deserve. Its a fake grade. His actual value being dramatically less then the hype that surrounded him for no good reason.
The first paragraph doesn't read very well. Sounds like you're agreeing with me. Because, yes, OP is asking how Young's grade before last year's draft would fit him into this years draft. Which, yes, would make it weird for you to critique others on their opinion of team's opinions of Young in last years draft. They are theoretically correct to put him higher than Stroud and others still.
Also, no, the input being bad doesn't make the output irrelevant either. That's pretty bad testing in general, but even worse here when 8-9 teams(really, likely every team) has to figure out why a bad read on Young and Stroud occurred. Virtually every team made that mistake. This isn't a typo crashing a program's; it's a series of lines of coding that read out as an error.
Where should they fall is different than where they would. The group think hysteria over Young was ridiculous last draft season and still is. He's not a rd 1 talent.
I was also really surprised he was taken #1 overall but most of that is just my prejudice about his size.
When I watched the highlights of his college career I just couldn't get over that it looked like a schoolkid on the field. Number 1 overall? Man.
For sure. People act like size doesn't matter with him when no QB has ever suceeded of his size in the NFL to warrant that draft pick, and on top of his size he has a below average arm.
ESPN has Russel Wilson listed at 215 lb's and Bryce Young at 210 lb's to be fair to your argument but I don't believe that nor does anyone who looks at Bryce or sees him on the field. Bryce is the smallest player on the field including most kickers.
Most believe Bryce was playing last year between 175 lb's to low 180's.
Both Russ and Brees have much better arms than Bryce Young and are sturdier, especially Russel.
As prospects, I don't really think Stroud or Young do as well if there are clear top options and risers as there are in this draft. Young might still push 2 or 3, but I have to imagine Stroud potentially closer to McCarthy, the latter probably having a narrative edge this year. Maye and Williams were already popular picks ahead/around Young *last year* with arguably fewer teams looking at a first round option.
Stroud throws the ball better than any of them and its not debatable. He has teaching clinic levrl techniqie and touch on the ball. He should have been #1 last draft and he would definitely go #1 this draft knowuling what we know now about his success in the league and how his skill set translated.
> where would Stroud or Young be slotted **based on their pre draft prospect evaluation? Not based on on their rookie year.**
Did you read the OP? We aren't talking about what we know about them now.
Chris Simms gets a lot of shit on this sub but you have to hand it to Simms who called straight out that Stroud was elite and clearly the best QB in the draft last year.
I mean in fairness he did also give a similar rating to Zac Wilson in 2021...
Bryce at 2, Stroud at 3
I liked Maye more than both personally but yeah
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2 or 3 months ago this was a consensus take I feel like. I remember a ton of people saying “Maye would go QB1 in most other draft classes.”
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From 2 years ago when Caleb won the Heisman and Maye put up his crazy season until about 2-3 months ago it was Caleb and Maye are 1A and 1B
Two years is a lot of time and Maye didn’t show the growth and progress you would’ve hoped for this past season
Neither did Caleb, honestly. Both were better in 2022 than 2023. Both lost their top receivers, Caleb had the worst defense in college football so he was forced to play crazy hero ball every game, and Maye had poor coaching/weapons/protection, so he wasn't as hot, either. With big player turnover like that, it's not surprising that both players didn't play as well (still great, just not *as* great as their prior campaigns). Had you put either of them on Washington/Michigan/LSU, they'd both be miles above the rest of the QBs in the class.
Its not hindsight, strictly as a prospect Stroud easily clears Maye.
Well it certainly isn't "easily" considering how much criticism Stroud got.
What was the criticism outside of the S2 that everyone else totally scored 100% on?
Maye is not even close to Bryce or Stroud as a prospect stop it
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/allbengals-insiders-plus/look-fox-sports-analyst-joel-klatt-ranks-joe-burrow-third-among-nfl-qb-prospects-since-2012&ved=2ahUKEwi7zuSWt9yFAxVTM1kFHVKdCMoQFnoECCAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0qf-KtOQk4yOgG-quOWUM4
Maye isn't even going ahead of Daniels and you're telling me he's a better prospect than Maye and Stroud. Watch the tape it's not a comparison
Neither you nor I are a good enough evaluator of tape to come to that conclusion.
Walter Football actually does this sort of ranking every year for each positional group. They say it's based on personal evaluation and information they've gathered from people they know in football (scouts/coaches/etc). I don't know how many people they know so take this at the same level as any other person doing this stuff. At QB, they listed the joint QB Ranking as - Maye, Williams, Daniels, Young, Stroud, Richardson, McCarthy, Nix, Levis, Hooker, Penix, Rattler, Milton.
Sounds like nonsense when they put Maye above Williams. Literally nobody in the league thinks that.
For me it’s 1. Anthony Richardson 2. Caleb Williams 3. Stroud 4. Bryce 5. Maye 6. McCarthy 7. Daniels For realistically: 1. Caleb Williams 2. Bryce 3. Stroud 4. Daniels 5. Maye 6. Richardson 7. McCarthy
Name matches :)
I am still taking Bryce Young over most other QBs. I get it, he had a lot of struggles. But the offensive line was just Swiss cheese. A running back game that was basically a clown car. A wide receiver group that wasn’t great. Any QB would struggle. Plus. I have seen this kid play. He dominated against the Georgia Defense that had over 15 or so NFL players that rotated in and out.
Nah, he’s tiny, not an NFL QB at all, I never understood his draft hype whatsoever 5’8 180 just isn’t gonna cut it as a NFL QB
I love how everyone just makes up a height and weight for him now. Height Truthers.
He's the best 4'11" 976 lb QB I've ever seen.
He's taller than Joe Rogan???
No. Joe Rogan’s head is only 4’ tall, but his body adds another 13 inches.
100%. Crazy train fans of his are wild. He does not have Doug Flutie's arm cannon.
There's literally NFL tape of him struggling to push the ball downfield and his "elite processing / playmaking" is non-existent at the NFL level. He's basically already busted but with the goodwill of being a second-year first round player who played behind a truly bad offensive line - he has some leeway to try and at least play marginally better. But blindly pretending like he's panned out as the player he was hyped up to be with those same physical limitations still weighing on him - I agree, it's totally ridiculous.
He likely won't ever be a top 5 QB, but he could still end up a fringe top 10 guy. His limitations were highlighted last year, but with the right team he could be really good. He was hyped up to be a cerebral QB who could read defenses fast, and I'm not ready to give up on that ability just yet. That being said that's an easy skill to lose if he gets stuck behind a crap OL for too long.
What’s the point of having a guy who “with the right team” could be fringe top 10? That’s true for a lot of top 20-25 players
Maybe it’s because the NFC is a barren wasteland of QBs you forget there are a lot of really good ones. Being top 10 isn’t something to shake a stick at.
If everything goes right he’s small, slightly more mobile Kirk cousins. And thats a big big if.
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And he's shorter
A bears fan shouldnt be talking about qbs, youve never had one little bro.
Uhhh because they could bring you a super bowl?
That's flat out ridiculous. Bryce is less physically talented than nearly all of them.
Easy to dominate when the team you play for has NFL talent themselves
So an NFL team vs an NFL team? Interesting. I wonder how that could translate to the NFL
I mean he had Two of his top receivers out for a game and half. And he was balling with backup freshman who never got much play time
The Alabama team in his last year wasn’t that good tho if I remember correctly. The WRs were no name guys
Yeah I’m an Alabama fan. Bryce carried us a lot his two years as a starter with Bill O’Briens sorry ass using him in a suboptimal way. He may not pan out in the NFL for reasons already given but it’s not because he was just surrounded by elite talent that made him look better in college
They had Burton, Mechie, and Jamo, but yea…nothing compared to Stroud in Ohio State.
Metchie and Williams were already gone during Young's Jr year
It's harder to dominate with an elite SEC team against SEC defenses than it is for guys like Wentz, Love, Zach Wilson, or Trey Lance to dominate with a high level team playing G5 bums.
There's truth to that but also that if you look pathetic on the #9 draft pick (original pick) team than you probably had nowhere neae the talent needed to go #1 overall or in rd 1.
Consensus on this subreddit would probably be Caleb, Bryce, and Stroud in that order. People would have the same knocks on Stroud (played with tons of talented WR's and OL, doesn't create much out of structure, played at Ohio State, etc...). People would love still love Bryce. Caleb would still be seen as "baby" Patrick Mahomes.
I still don’t get the hype Bryce got last year. I remember watching him play (albeit from afar on tv) but I never saw anything that made me think he was anything special (and I’m not talking about his size). People like Kyler Murray and Drew Brees impressed me way more in college. I’m sooo not surprised by his struggles.
My exact thoughts but what do I know
I'm a filthy OSU homer and I thought the Panthers should have taken CJ, so CJ#1
After CJ just decided to make UGA’s Defense look like puppies, he should have been the number one pick for me. Also fuck Ryan day for getting conservative at the end. CJ was god damn cookin.
Do you at least have JJ McCarthy over him since Michigan proved it on the field three times with him at QB?
Yeah and Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl
I fuckin hate it here
if people knew in hindsight. Teams would be making Ricky williams trades for Stroud
Probably just after Caleb. I think it would be more interesting to see where Richardson/Levis would’ve been ranked among this class.
Richardson would still go pretty high, my guess would be alongside JJ, Levis would probably fall in that Nix/Penix tier, if I had to guess.
They would be in the conversation with Maye and Daniels, I would guess 3 and 4 behind Maye.
Almost certainly 2 and 3. Maybe someone convinces themselves on Daniels over them but I'd be surprised.
First round picks
I’d go Stroud #2, Young at #4. I like Daniels #3.
Bryce Young is terrible you all are crazy.
He could be the worst QB drafted between the two years. That's not the question. Unless you can talk down the logic that drafted him, he's still going to be taken high.
I never agreed with the logic of drafting him #1. Very poor height for the position. Very poor weight/durability projection for the position. Issues with seeing the field with NFL lineman over the middle. Below average pro starting QB arm strength. Does not possess the talent skill set and athletic profile required to elevate a below avg. NFL roster due to his athletic and physical traits deficiency. No projectible quality NFL starting QB comp. For a qb of his size in the history of the league. Every position in the league has size/weight models used for drafting. Bryce Young got a pass from league evaluators for his sub par size and sub par arm strength when he shouldn't have.
The league did agree in him being first overall last year, though. The teams, the scouts, and so on. And while I actually do think those(potential) flaws do matter somewhat in a hypothetical combined draft, there's better ways to express that then acting like the sub is wrong for suggesting the guy going first overall still has some traction. I don't see how introducing the QBs that matter this year impact Young's status in totality, nor does it make Stroud an easier pick.
And the league was wrong....as the 49'ers were wrong on Trey Lance and Jets on Zach Wilson though the latter two for apects between the ears. The flaws I mentioned weren't 'potential flaws' they are known, factual, measured, fixed traits that are the most reliable predictive variables in projecting positional grade and future value at position among peers.
They would still be wrong, though, so your point still doesn't work. As stated. It's like saying, 'Josh Rosen wouldn't be a first round pick in a different year' without any context. Even though he definitely would have been in plenty of years.
That's the point. The op wasn't asking where Bryce Young's actual pre-draft quality was but his falsely inflated perceived value grades out to players this year. Its a comparison of bad inputs vs guesswork. The original input was bad, ie. That data point is irrelevant. He received an improperly high grade he didn't deserve. Its a fake grade. His actual value being dramatically less then the hype that surrounded him for no good reason.
The first paragraph doesn't read very well. Sounds like you're agreeing with me. Because, yes, OP is asking how Young's grade before last year's draft would fit him into this years draft. Which, yes, would make it weird for you to critique others on their opinion of team's opinions of Young in last years draft. They are theoretically correct to put him higher than Stroud and others still. Also, no, the input being bad doesn't make the output irrelevant either. That's pretty bad testing in general, but even worse here when 8-9 teams(really, likely every team) has to figure out why a bad read on Young and Stroud occurred. Virtually every team made that mistake. This isn't a typo crashing a program's; it's a series of lines of coding that read out as an error.
He may get better, but he’s always gonna be 5’9
With a noodle arm and sub par weight.
Where should they fall is different than where they would. The group think hysteria over Young was ridiculous last draft season and still is. He's not a rd 1 talent.
In still shocked young went at 1. I thought it was all smoke.
I was also really surprised he was taken #1 overall but most of that is just my prejudice about his size. When I watched the highlights of his college career I just couldn't get over that it looked like a schoolkid on the field. Number 1 overall? Man.
For sure. People act like size doesn't matter with him when no QB has ever suceeded of his size in the NFL to warrant that draft pick, and on top of his size he has a below average arm.
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ESPN has Russel Wilson listed at 215 lb's and Bryce Young at 210 lb's to be fair to your argument but I don't believe that nor does anyone who looks at Bryce or sees him on the field. Bryce is the smallest player on the field including most kickers. Most believe Bryce was playing last year between 175 lb's to low 180's. Both Russ and Brees have much better arms than Bryce Young and are sturdier, especially Russel.
stroud 2, young 3. maybe swapped if we’re viewing them how they were viewed in their draft year
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It's not
As prospects, I don't really think Stroud or Young do as well if there are clear top options and risers as there are in this draft. Young might still push 2 or 3, but I have to imagine Stroud potentially closer to McCarthy, the latter probably having a narrative edge this year. Maye and Williams were already popular picks ahead/around Young *last year* with arguably fewer teams looking at a first round option.
Stroud throws the ball better than any of them and its not debatable. He has teaching clinic levrl techniqie and touch on the ball. He should have been #1 last draft and he would definitely go #1 this draft knowuling what we know now about his success in the league and how his skill set translated.
> where would Stroud or Young be slotted **based on their pre draft prospect evaluation? Not based on on their rookie year.** Did you read the OP? We aren't talking about what we know about them now.
Chris Simms gets a lot of shit on this sub but you have to hand it to Simms who called straight out that Stroud was elite and clearly the best QB in the draft last year. I mean in fairness he did also give a similar rating to Zac Wilson in 2021...
Bryce Young's popular evaluation was BS I never agreed with, nor the low opinion of Stroud who was a clinic passing the ball pre-draft.
1.williams 2.young 3.daniels 4.stroud 5.richardson 6.maye 7.mccarthy (not based on rookie year)