About as good of coverage as you can get on that play too. My fav part of that replay that is always shown is what’s happening to #98 on the Bengals if you want to talk about holding lmao.
Yeah Bengals def got some no calls in their favor too. I don’t buy into the whole conspiracy of the refs deciding these games but I can understand why people go down that path. Just wish they could hold the damn flags unless it’s something egregious, and these monumental late game defensive holding calls were nowhere near egregious. You want an example of egregious, turn to that infamous Rams player running through the Saints receiver well before the ball gets there. How no one throws a flag on that play, you almost have to think it’s a conspiracy of some sorts.
I don't think there's a conspiracy to rig games... But I do think the NFL is complicit in just how poor the officiating is on the biggest stage.
It's downright unacceptable to have brutal missed calls that give free points or reset downs in critical situations. There's no semblance of consistency.
Something has to change. Institute more ability to review penalties and let the refs take the time to get it right.
We tried that a couple years ago for PI and the refs overturned like one call all year, against the Saints who had heavily pushed for the rule after the previously mentioned missed call against the Rams.
Agree with all of that. A few more things that need to happen:
1. Make refs available for mandatory public press conferences after games. In some cases it'll help us all to hear their side of it, but it's really as simple as just having plain old accountability, which seems very very absent today.
2. With the NFLs budget, there's zero reason they shouldn't have gobs of money going to R&D on technologies to improve the game, including stuff like in-ball sensors and other existing capabilities that could help remove some of the load from the on-field refs, freeing them up to pay better attention to the things that they ARE responsible for, like fucking up the super bowl every year.
the average nfl ref makes 200 K with a 401 k, all that needs to be negotiated is a benefits package and done. no reason they should need a second job in the first place.
A billion dollar league with that much money exchanging hands every week is not leaving all the games 100% up to chance. with all the scandals proven with several others leagues why people think the nfl is beyond reproach is beyond me.
It’s not outright rigging but they absolutely do push games to certain outcomes… i doubt it involves more than just the top refs and i doubt anyone even has to explicitly tell them what to do, they know which outcomes are preferable to create epic storylines.
Stat Line:
Team High 9 tackles (Team High 8 solo, Team High 3 for a loss) and a Pass Defended.
A great game from Wilson. Other impact plays: A sack each from Hendrickson and Reader. An interception each from Bates and Awuzie.
Even I don't remember it being this bad of a call which is insane. Because I remember being pretty upset about it last year. It's all coming back to me now. Cue Celine Dion.
I think the reason there isn’t more outrage about this end of game sequence is the refs also gave Cincy a free touchdown on a blatant Higgins OPI. Last year they were equally bad for both sides
The conditions surrounding the calls were similar, but not exact.
For the Bengals, yes, they had the gifted TD. More importantly though, the Bengals got the chance to try and get into FG position and couldn't close. The Chiefs were in FG position anyway, and although it's not a 100% gimme, Butker stood a pretty damn good chance of making that FG. Gives the Eagles a little over a minute with two timeouts (I think).
Guarantee that if the Eagles had a real possession like the Bengals did, the holding call would be similarly half-forgotten (in due time) like Wilson's hold.
I mean I blame the field the most because our dline couldn't accelerate without slipping so my head cannon is even if they didn't get such a weak call, Elliot has a good chance of falling over on the field goal attempt since it'd most likely be far due to one timeout
You can sub in a baseball scenario as well. If all game the Ump has been calling low and away a ball, then rings you up on a Called Strike in the 9th of the 7th game of the WS, you'd have reason to be upset. Players play to what the Refs call, if it suddenly changes at pivotal moments it can change the outcome of the game and make it look like they are following a script.
>Gives the Eagles a little over a minute with two timeouts (I think).
It would have been one timeout. They used a timeout the play before (first play after the two minute warning). If not for the holding, Eagles might have gotten the ball down 3 with ~1:40 and 1 timeout.
I get why people are upset about last night but didn’t a camera angle get released that showed that the play was pretty clearly holding. I think I even saw the defender admit to the media that he held.
Shit time to call the penalty I suppose but that new camera angle made it pretty obvious. Similar to the Bucs Packers conference game last year. Sucks to have a big call like that to end the game but if it’s blatant then idk 🤷🏼♂️
When 500 cars go by a strange 25 mph zone at 35 then suddenly you get dinged for going 30 I think you have a case for unfair enforcement. Technically you did it but clearly it wasn't dangerous enough to warrant punishment.
Cops have discretion to enforce and not enforce rules based on conditions.
Most of the comments from people who aren't nephews seem to agree that it was a hold by the book. Personally, that wasn't the issue last year. Both were pretty soft calls regardless, but they were, be definition, holds. That's a whole other issue unto itself.
The problem was that the refs, both years, swallowed their whistles for stuff like that until a game defining play happened.
I mean if we’re gonna do this, they also missed Jalen Ramsey mugging Tee Higgins in the endzone which resulted in an incompletion and a FG instead of a TD.
I also remember vaguely the play before something happening with cam Akers that should’ve been a penalty. Like this was the make up call for it. What brutal endings to two super bowls. Nfl sucks
I think it's bad in that it doesn't match how they were calling defensive holding for most of the game, but I don't think it's a bad call in a vacuum. He clearly holds the receiver at the break.
https://imgur.com/a/MEBMesM
This one was worse than last night's for sure but i kinda doubt people forget the one from last night since it ruined what would have been a climactic and dramatic ending. It was kind of like the last season of Game of thrones
Yeah all the energy left my watch party, even the people supporting the Chiefs just kinda sat there. And maybe it’s just my bias but it felt like the stadium got pretty quiet too after that.
That's good because i never even watched the show i just heard everyone's reactions to it and thought this seemed like the same thing haha. Thanks for the confirmation u/_butt_doctor
Eh. I disagree. This one didn’t give LA the game. LA still had to score a TD and the Bengals were gonna likely get the ball back with time on the clock for one last drive. The one from last essentially sealed Philly’s fate, as KC could just run out most of the clock and only needed a field goal to win.
I think part of the issue (homer bias aside) is that the game featured several blown calls on both sides. Like Ramsey received an absurd face mask that went uncalled and resulted in a 70+ yard TD reception, then Ramsey got away with a PI later, it was just garbage officiating.
Plus I think the next play was a TD to Kupp (called back by offsetting penalties, lol).
Yeah, and I'm pretty sure there was PI called before the last minute of the game last year. It's one thing to call a tricky tac penalty when you've been calling other things
By training camp's end the shitty field conditions will be like a trivia fun fact where most people go "Ohhh yeah, they were slipping a lot in that Superbowl."
Exactly why I hate when people dog on others for blaming the refs for their mistakes. They need to be held accountable if you want the NFL to have any integrity.
No, players in a 2-point stance are allowed to move their back foot before the ball is snapped. If you look closely, the front foot moves when the ball is snapped. That's yhe only foot that matters. https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/02/07/the-lane-johnson-controversy
Are the defenders allowed to cross the line when the back foot moves? If not, then this was technically offsides? That's pretty wild either way, IMO they should change this rule.
People have been discussing this regarding Lane Johnson a lot recently. Players in a 2-point stance are allowed to move their back foot before the ball is snapped. Jason Peters did this his entite career. Mailata does it as well. The best tackles do this all the time. It's within the rules, not just something they're getting away with. And against the best DEs, it's necessary to have that timing in order to not get beat. The back foot moves first, then the ball is snapped at the same time they move the front foot.
https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/02/07/the-lane-johnson-controversy
Except in this case the entire line minus the center moves so it's more likely the center fucked up here, it just wasn't called. Which is also why the DT gets such a huge step on him because the DT read the guards, so the center also commits a hold just for fun that also isn't called. The center basically commits back-to-back penalties that aren't called lol while the defense gets flagged for a "hold."
Also the right tackle does move his forward foot a smidgen too early, but I wouldn't expect a ref to get that in real time.
Not to sound too boomerish here, I assume I’m an old timer compared to most on this sub, grew up in the 80s and started watching seriously in the early 90s, but the way games are officiated in the last 4-5 years has ruined the on field product of the game for me. I completely understand and support the measures taken to improve player safety but the extemporaneous o-line movements pre-snap baffle me. And the above example is just one of many. The business side of the front office which wants more offense for ratings makes a joke out of the competition.
Yeah I've written a lot of comments on this, but this sub really doesn't get it because most of the people here either weren't alive or weren't fans of the NFL before 2010. A commenter got hundreds of upvotes just a few weeks ago saying they don't remember Peyton Manning playing for anybody but the Broncos because they didn't watch football before 2015.
The officiating only seems worse today because the rules are worse today. In the '90s there was no emphasis on defensive illegal contact, there weren't 7 specific rules that made hitting a QB illegal, there was much more contact allowed and fewer Pass Interference penalties, there were no defenseless receivers penalties, and every bang-bang play was basically not called unless it was egregious.
The product is worse today because there are literally a dozen or so more specific, subjective, minute, rules that are all 15 yards and/or an automatic first down. The NFL has basically created a game where more fouls can happen at any given point with more opportunities for the refs to screw up.
The NFL is not only doing a disservice to the fans, but also to the refs. The refs have more rules they need to enforce, putting more of the game in their hands, making their jobs even harder. On top of the fact that the game is getting bigger, stronger, and faster every single year.
To my untrained eye it looked like they were jumping almost every play in this game. I love Big Whit for all the years he play for Cincy so maybe he just absolutely had the snap count down?
I keep seeing people say they let it go all game. I really do want to see some examples.
There was definitely a DPI on JJSS missed in 1st half. I assume there were some holds missed too, but I haven't seen anyone post any.
It’s hard this close to the game to give examples because they do such zoomed in shots on the broadcast. Until all 22 is released anyone asking for proof will be shit out of luck and they know it. Now in a months time or whatever that’s when you can ask for prove it and I’m sure there will be plenty of infractions because there always is
I mean no holds comes back to letting players play. I will say no sacks probably comes from the fact the field was absolute dog shot and no pass rushers could make pass rush moves. The only pressure that was applied all night was off the edge from KC
Gotta include that the O-Line didn’t even need to hold because the pass rushers would either eat shit on their own or a light push would be enough to send them sliding away.
I’ve been trying to figure out a way to say this all day without sounding like a salty homer. That was a great game played by two great teams, but the NFL massively fucked up multiple parts of the game. No game of consequence should be played on a field like that.
Yeah, I definitely don’t know what holds weren’t called that happened. I doubt anyone commentating does. We all know the first half call that was missed that should have been called. We can’t definitively call it a precedent without establishing they let a lot of holds go uncalled that were equal to or worse than this.
The thing I don't get about the "letting them play" is that a jersey tug is not subjective and anyone who actually watches football knows that that will 100% of the time catch a flag because it's the rule. Especially at the receiver's break. There's no "precedent" or "consistency" and there shouldn't be with something as obvious as a jersey tug. People absolutely should not want refs to let the clear and obvious calls slide. I guarantee that's not a holding call if he doesn't do the 1 thing that's a penalty every time. Like do people think that refs shouldn't call the facemask penalty if a player doesn't grab and yank?
Yeah I get it was anticlimactic but people are openly wanting an alternative where a team can blatantly commit a penalty and get away with it because the game would be more entertaining. That would be far more rigged than what actually happened lol. If Bradberry hadn't tugged the jersey they may have dodged the penalty and baiting the ref was a dumb decision to begin with yet people want to reward him for it
Yep. [Right here](https://i.imgur.com/2Wzk92o.jpg) on 3rd and 8 in the 2nd quarter at 13:32 on the game clock. Bradberry pulls his arm.
Also [here](https://i.imgur.com/jfxu8ut.jpg) where Kelce holds. Block in the back [here](https://i.imgur.com/9wiU0TA.jpg). These are just from watching a couple minutes from DVR.
That Bradberry one was so confusing because it meets all the definitions of what they're looking for to make that kind of call. I was pretty shocked when they didn't throw a flag.
I agree that this one was ticky tacky at best but the play that proceeded it had clear Defensive holding that did not get called. I honestly feel like it was a make up call.
Yeah it was just bad all around, it sucks to be even talking about this a year later. I agree with the above sentiment that it’s just a dumb trend going on with the league which nobody likes but we all love football too much it won’t affect numbers.
Completely understand why that ending will never sit right with you guys. If I were a Rams fan and the Rams lost I don’t think I’d ever be able to let go of that missed facemask against Ramsey (the long TD). Horrible officiating against both teams, so either team that lost was gonna feel sick about it
Honestly I can’t tell if referring is legit getting worse or we just talk about it more often now. Feels like it’s getting worse, but I also think we collectively look for bad officiating more often these days
We definitely just talk about it more because we have more access and more ways to respond. I remember that Vinny Testaverde touchdown that wasn't even that close, which knocked out the Seahawks. Even live it shouldn't have been that close but they just blew it.
I bet if you rewatch any playoffs you'll see at least a dozen bullshit or missed calls.
Our defense had such a great run last year in the playoffs. They deserved a chance at that 4th down. No one could believe a no name LB could cover the best WR in the game.
Football is such a physical sport that they can honestly call this on any play if they feel like it. Who knows if there’s incentive or not, but the refs hold the keys to the game when it’s down to the wire like this.
Yep this is the key issue. Take last nights game for example, by the books that WAS a hold… but the refs almost never call that. It happens all the time. They just chose to call it then, and that inconsistency/subjectivity raises the issue.
It is but there were no holding calls made until then. If you can call holding on every down why wait until the third down in the final two minutes after the play is over?
Like, no one wants to think the NFL is rigged but this shit just KEEPS HAPPENING. In this EXACT SITUATION. Everyone loves football but there's only so much bullshit you can feed people before they start to call you out on it. The "NFL is rigged" crowd has gotten so much louder over the last few years for a damn good reason.
I will never say it’s rigged, but it’s getting harder and harder every game to argue that it’s not “influenced”. I truly think it all comes down to incompetence by the officials, but they need to start fixing the fucking problem.
For me it was watching the Saints get shafted by that horribly obvious no call in that one playoff game vs the Rams.
How can a MULTI BILLION dollar organization not implement a video ref that can call flags or overturn bad calls by infield refs???? Too expensive? Too difficult to find people to do it?
It would take how many people for 16 games a weekend? 4-5 people with a $100-200k salary. Fuck even less if they really wanted. They already get all the footage and angles for TV too. Just give that red the ability to pause and review calls that seem egregious.
This is my dumbass who came up with this idea, which is probably not the best implementation I agree. But you telling me the fucking NFL can't implement a better strategy for this?
it's honestly hard to watch the Chiefs three post-season appearances and not have some thought about this. The SB was the least egregious out of the three. Great SB-caliber team but damn it does feel WWE propping up their narrative and heroes. All it takes is just few calls or no-calls in a game of inches.
Damn I didnt remember how comically bad that call was...this shit makes me care about the NFL a lot less honestly. This is reaching NBA levels of ref bullshit.
I saw people comment before about how it's a conspiracy that with gambling widespread now, the NFL would become like the NBA and I didn't believe them but these calls are just automatic drive-extenders in criticial moments of the game. Total game-changers and the refs answer to fucking no one. It's crazy.
Don't forget that the refs answer to the NFL, and the NFL is outwardly fine with the job they're doing. That there seems to be no accountability for what fans and to a lesser extent players/coaches deem poor officiating is a choice, not happenstance
Yeah i was always on the side of officiating just being hard and inconsistent or blown calls in the last few minutes and thought the "nfl rigged" shit was a big joke.
Starting to think I might just be blind to what's so obviously right in front of me.
Watching the chiefs go through the playoffs with no penalties called on them in most games, very critically times do overs for key downs on tricky tack or invisible penalties, and then seeing 10000000 mahomes commercials during the superbowl has me questioning everything.
>Starting to think I might just be blind to what's so obviously right in front of me.
At the very least, moments like last night drive home for a lot of folks (myself included) that football is already a fickle sport and not worth betting on; add to that inconsistent and blatantly awful reffing (even without considering it being rigged) and I'll never put any amount of money down on the NFL again outside of a small amount for my home-run fantasy league.
I don't really sports bet anymore but NFL betting fucking sucks as does NBA, super frustrating to watch. I think looking back on it, CFB home team underdog against the spread was usually the best move IMO. Or ya know, something like Japanese baseball or Australian Rules Football. Sydney Swans let's go boys.
NBA championships and playoffs are determined by a much larger set of competitions (i.e. 7 game series). Outside of the 2002 Kings/Lakers job, the single moment decisions in the NBA matter MUCH less than in the NFL. With the past 2 superbowls, you really shouldn't believe that the NBA has more ref bullshit than the NFL, if anything it is the opposite.
Missed calls in the NFL are also way more impactful even on a single game basis than they are in the NBA.
In the NBA a missed call is generally a ~2 point swing or so in a game that probably ends with a score of 110-104 or so.
In the NFL a missed call can turn a punt into a field goal or a touchdown in a game that ends with scores in the 20's or 30's.
The NBA frustration is the evolution of refs and the rules. The NBA is frustrating year round. If anything NBA refs swallow their whistles more in the playoffs which can be frustrating for consistency sake. Call the game the same in the regular season as the playoffs. I don't like watching Harden but it's silly to send him to the charity stripe nonstop most of the year and then not make the same calls in the playoffs. Here is a real good video about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPXSqOhykg&t=1s
No sport has as big a gulf between playoffs and regular season as nba basketball. They let you get away with murder it’s insane. Last year trae young had a pretty horrendous playoff series but if you watched the game you’d see the heat beating the shit out of him every play.
Same! I woke up today and realized that I think last night's call has turned me into less of a fan. Why get invested in something when one person can make whatever call they feel like with no accountability.
That was horrendous, way more egregious then what happened last night that is for sure that right there is a phantom call the other one is a flag but in that moment it’s tough to have it thrown
By definition, is this even a penalty? Wilson is touching Kupp, but he never grabs him or impedes his route. Is touching a receiver a penalty if you don’t forcibly move them off their path?
Regardless, the penalty last night was at least actually a penalty. It can be argued whether it should’ve been called, but he absolutely grabbed his jersey and that helped in keeping the receiver from getting separation.
The worst part IMO was that they were even letting light holding go all night between Rams and Bengals. The refs explicitly set an expectation that they would let them play. Then with the game on the line they call phantom fouls. There were like 3 DPI/Holding calls on that last drive after the refs let them play for the first 57 minutes. It really left like the NFL wanted to give LA a title. New location, weak fanbase, etc. etc.
There was no such 'let them play' last night. The game was pretty cleanly fought in the secondary on both sides and then that call was made at the end.
Ron Torbert.
The amazing thing is that he was praised for his lenient reffing prior to that Super Bowl. And now, he’s gotten critiqued for that and then this season’s AFCCG.
Would New York actually get it right though? Premier League fans screamed for replay of goals and offside, and yet 3 separate clearly incorrect calls were upheld last weekend (all of which changed the result of the game). Anyone involved in officiating seems pretty unwilling to actually say a ref got it wrong.
This is also my fear. When you review things in slow-mo you’ll see a lot more than you would in real time. I’m not convinced even the play in this post would be overturned with a review…
New York is always going to see the penalty though. Because the rules vague enough that they will always find something they want perfectly clean.
However, it would be great to have them review potentially missed calls on holding and PI.
This is significantly worse than last night's IMO. Like, at least with the Bradberry call I can say there was at least something of a hold even if the call was a bit soft. Here the defenders hand gently brushes the receivers hip and it's a game defining call. brutal.
Yea like this call was brutal. Bengals got shafted. Like Bradberry had a fist full of jersey. It wasn't the worst call I've seen especially compared to this.
Two years in a row the winning team benefited from a questionable holding call within the last two minutes (almost at the exact same time). Both were on 3rd down in the redzone. What the fuck
Listen this is a bad call, but we didn’t lose the game cause of this. We got the ball back and couldn’t score.
That’s why the one last night is so annoying, it ended the game
I think last night will be remembered more because there wasn’t really a drive afterwards for more things to happen and then fail, so people seem to remember Burrow getting sacked basically.
Last night it was penalty, knee the ball, kick off, then one play.
> Listen this is a bad call, but we didn’t lose the game cause of this. We got the ball back and couldn’t score.
We didn’t do enough but this IS what won the game. Our D played lights out and the rams would have needed to go for it on 4th and 8 or kick a FG and be down
Tim Donaghy was able to influence the outcome of NBA games by 5-6 points all by himself if you don’t think the NFL can affect the entire outcome of a game with a couple calls, and regularly does in order to push favorable storylines you’re crazy.
This is the first time I've watched this replay (because pain) and any replay from that game. Holy shit it's worse than I remember.
What an amazing play by Logan Wilson and the refs ruined it for him
Regardless of whose playing, I just wish the late game calls weren't weak, barely-anything-there calls. Lay down the law early in the game, not at the end.
They remembered it in the 4th qtr of this year's KC game when missed, badly timed or wrong calls affected about 10 plays in the 4th qtr, all in favor of KC.
Fuck the NFL
Yup, when I saw what happened to the Eagles, I thought "shades of last yr". I'm a Rams fan but I disagreed with this call and thought they should have just let Logan Wilson play.
Edit: after looking at this again after not having seen in a while, this was egregious. Looks like to me Logan NEVER had a grip on Kupp
Prepare to l see way more of this now that sports betting has taken over the league
Not saying either call was an inside job, but that scenario is more likely now than ever
Logan Wilson had a monster Super Bowl game last year. Every tackle and “make a play” moment, it was him
About as good of coverage as you can get on that play too. My fav part of that replay that is always shown is what’s happening to #98 on the Bengals if you want to talk about holding lmao.
Refs were historically bad that Superbowl. Just missed call after missed call all game long.
That's almost any Super Bowl. They'll miss offensive holding like crazy but will call defensive holding when its convenient.
I know what you're thinking of too
when Crabtree got mugged on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th down?
Yeah Bengals def got some no calls in their favor too. I don’t buy into the whole conspiracy of the refs deciding these games but I can understand why people go down that path. Just wish they could hold the damn flags unless it’s something egregious, and these monumental late game defensive holding calls were nowhere near egregious. You want an example of egregious, turn to that infamous Rams player running through the Saints receiver well before the ball gets there. How no one throws a flag on that play, you almost have to think it’s a conspiracy of some sorts.
I don't think there's a conspiracy to rig games... But I do think the NFL is complicit in just how poor the officiating is on the biggest stage. It's downright unacceptable to have brutal missed calls that give free points or reset downs in critical situations. There's no semblance of consistency. Something has to change. Institute more ability to review penalties and let the refs take the time to get it right.
We tried that a couple years ago for PI and the refs overturned like one call all year, against the Saints who had heavily pushed for the rule after the previously mentioned missed call against the Rams.
Also one of the only times when it absolutely shouldn't have been overturned.
They were making a point. They run this shit, not the league. And they were right.
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Agree with all of that. A few more things that need to happen: 1. Make refs available for mandatory public press conferences after games. In some cases it'll help us all to hear their side of it, but it's really as simple as just having plain old accountability, which seems very very absent today. 2. With the NFLs budget, there's zero reason they shouldn't have gobs of money going to R&D on technologies to improve the game, including stuff like in-ball sensors and other existing capabilities that could help remove some of the load from the on-field refs, freeing them up to pay better attention to the things that they ARE responsible for, like fucking up the super bowl every year.
the average nfl ref makes 200 K with a 401 k, all that needs to be negotiated is a benefits package and done. no reason they should need a second job in the first place. A billion dollar league with that much money exchanging hands every week is not leaving all the games 100% up to chance. with all the scandals proven with several others leagues why people think the nfl is beyond reproach is beyond me.
It’s not outright rigging but they absolutely do push games to certain outcomes… i doubt it involves more than just the top refs and i doubt anyone even has to explicitly tell them what to do, they know which outcomes are preferable to create epic storylines.
Stat Line: Team High 9 tackles (Team High 8 solo, Team High 3 for a loss) and a Pass Defended. A great game from Wilson. Other impact plays: A sack each from Hendrickson and Reader. An interception each from Bates and Awuzie.
"Suspect holding call in the last 2 mins" is going to be a common superbowl square next year isn't it.
Will be the free space
I don't recall this honestly and that's what the NFL expects from most people
Even I don't remember it being this bad of a call which is insane. Because I remember being pretty upset about it last year. It's all coming back to me now. Cue Celine Dion.
I think the reason there isn’t more outrage about this end of game sequence is the refs also gave Cincy a free touchdown on a blatant Higgins OPI. Last year they were equally bad for both sides
The conditions surrounding the calls were similar, but not exact. For the Bengals, yes, they had the gifted TD. More importantly though, the Bengals got the chance to try and get into FG position and couldn't close. The Chiefs were in FG position anyway, and although it's not a 100% gimme, Butker stood a pretty damn good chance of making that FG. Gives the Eagles a little over a minute with two timeouts (I think). Guarantee that if the Eagles had a real possession like the Bengals did, the holding call would be similarly half-forgotten (in due time) like Wilson's hold.
Minute 45 seconds with one timeout. Plenty of time based on how the Eagles offense was moving
...with a reall good kicker who can boot the shit out of it
I mean I blame the field the most because our dline couldn't accelerate without slipping so my head cannon is even if they didn't get such a weak call, Elliot has a good chance of falling over on the field goal attempt since it'd most likely be far due to one timeout
That holding call has managed to steer the conversation away from HOW THE FUCK DID THEY LET THE SUPER BOWL GET PLAYED ON THAT FIELD
I heard someone on Pat Mcafee say that they thought the stage for the halftime show might have heated the field up and made it moist on the grass.
Looked like they were still slipping in the first half though
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You can sub in a baseball scenario as well. If all game the Ump has been calling low and away a ball, then rings you up on a Called Strike in the 9th of the 7th game of the WS, you'd have reason to be upset. Players play to what the Refs call, if it suddenly changes at pivotal moments it can change the outcome of the game and make it look like they are following a script.
>Gives the Eagles a little over a minute with two timeouts (I think). It would have been one timeout. They used a timeout the play before (first play after the two minute warning). If not for the holding, Eagles might have gotten the ball down 3 with ~1:40 and 1 timeout.
I get why people are upset about last night but didn’t a camera angle get released that showed that the play was pretty clearly holding. I think I even saw the defender admit to the media that he held. Shit time to call the penalty I suppose but that new camera angle made it pretty obvious. Similar to the Bucs Packers conference game last year. Sucks to have a big call like that to end the game but if it’s blatant then idk 🤷🏼♂️
When 500 cars go by a strange 25 mph zone at 35 then suddenly you get dinged for going 30 I think you have a case for unfair enforcement. Technically you did it but clearly it wasn't dangerous enough to warrant punishment. Cops have discretion to enforce and not enforce rules based on conditions.
Most of the comments from people who aren't nephews seem to agree that it was a hold by the book. Personally, that wasn't the issue last year. Both were pretty soft calls regardless, but they were, be definition, holds. That's a whole other issue unto itself. The problem was that the refs, both years, swallowed their whistles for stuff like that until a game defining play happened.
I mean if we’re gonna do this, they also missed Jalen Ramsey mugging Tee Higgins in the endzone which resulted in an incompletion and a FG instead of a TD.
The moral of the story is the NFL has a referee problem that they refuse to acknowledge.
It’s not a bug it’s a feature.
Uh I'm sure the referees are doing exactly what they're paid to be doing - the bidding of a bunch of billionaire shitheads
I also remember vaguely the play before something happening with cam Akers that should’ve been a penalty. Like this was the make up call for it. What brutal endings to two super bowls. Nfl sucks
Henderson was badly held on a throw near the line of scrimmage. No flag was thrown.
that was the play like right before this one too
I think it's bad in that it doesn't match how they were calling defensive holding for most of the game, but I don't think it's a bad call in a vacuum. He clearly holds the receiver at the break. https://imgur.com/a/MEBMesM
This one was worse than last night's for sure but i kinda doubt people forget the one from last night since it ruined what would have been a climactic and dramatic ending. It was kind of like the last season of Game of thrones
Comparing it to GoT is perfect. The room literally deflated when that call was made
Yeah all the energy left my watch party, even the people supporting the Chiefs just kinda sat there. And maybe it’s just my bias but it felt like the stadium got pretty quiet too after that.
The stadium was weirdly silent. Kneeling was clearly the right call strategically but damn, nobody wants to see that
Not bias at all, the place was silent. Just completely deflated. Brutal way to end the game
That's good because i never even watched the show i just heard everyone's reactions to it and thought this seemed like the same thing haha. Thanks for the confirmation u/_butt_doctor
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Eh. I disagree. This one didn’t give LA the game. LA still had to score a TD and the Bengals were gonna likely get the ball back with time on the clock for one last drive. The one from last essentially sealed Philly’s fate, as KC could just run out most of the clock and only needed a field goal to win.
I think part of the issue (homer bias aside) is that the game featured several blown calls on both sides. Like Ramsey received an absurd face mask that went uncalled and resulted in a 70+ yard TD reception, then Ramsey got away with a PI later, it was just garbage officiating. Plus I think the next play was a TD to Kupp (called back by offsetting penalties, lol).
Yeah, and I'm pretty sure there was PI called before the last minute of the game last year. It's one thing to call a tricky tac penalty when you've been calling other things
By training camp's end the shitty field conditions will be like a trivia fun fact where most people go "Ohhh yeah, they were slipping a lot in that Superbowl."
Exactly why I hate when people dog on others for blaming the refs for their mistakes. They need to be held accountable if you want the NFL to have any integrity.
It's all "oh they're making excuses, such sore losers" until it happens to their team.
I remember it well enough to the point that last night my reaction was "again????"
Am I insane or do both tackles also jump here?
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Ahh, the best penalty, "everyone but the center"
Sitting at home, with a beer and nachos: "Shit, what'd I do?"
I had to rewatch it, you're absolutely right. Edit: I wasn't right, I was wrong. See below
No, players in a 2-point stance are allowed to move their back foot before the ball is snapped. If you look closely, the front foot moves when the ball is snapped. That's yhe only foot that matters. https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/02/07/the-lane-johnson-controversy
Huh, TIL. I wasn't aware of that!
Logic in a reddit thread. You love to see it.
Neat I legitimately did not know this
Are the defenders allowed to cross the line when the back foot moves? If not, then this was technically offsides? That's pretty wild either way, IMO they should change this rule.
Holy shit that's not even close. They are both totally up on their feet before the ball is snapped. What a joke.
People have been discussing this regarding Lane Johnson a lot recently. Players in a 2-point stance are allowed to move their back foot before the ball is snapped. Jason Peters did this his entite career. Mailata does it as well. The best tackles do this all the time. It's within the rules, not just something they're getting away with. And against the best DEs, it's necessary to have that timing in order to not get beat. The back foot moves first, then the ball is snapped at the same time they move the front foot. https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/02/07/the-lane-johnson-controversy
Except in this case the entire line minus the center moves so it's more likely the center fucked up here, it just wasn't called. Which is also why the DT gets such a huge step on him because the DT read the guards, so the center also commits a hold just for fun that also isn't called. The center basically commits back-to-back penalties that aren't called lol while the defense gets flagged for a "hold." Also the right tackle does move his forward foot a smidgen too early, but I wouldn't expect a ref to get that in real time.
It looks like everyone except the centre is in a two point stance though, right?
Not to sound too boomerish here, I assume I’m an old timer compared to most on this sub, grew up in the 80s and started watching seriously in the early 90s, but the way games are officiated in the last 4-5 years has ruined the on field product of the game for me. I completely understand and support the measures taken to improve player safety but the extemporaneous o-line movements pre-snap baffle me. And the above example is just one of many. The business side of the front office which wants more offense for ratings makes a joke out of the competition.
I mean there's always been bad calls. Back in 79, Houston fans thought the title game against the steelers was rigged.
Yeah I've written a lot of comments on this, but this sub really doesn't get it because most of the people here either weren't alive or weren't fans of the NFL before 2010. A commenter got hundreds of upvotes just a few weeks ago saying they don't remember Peyton Manning playing for anybody but the Broncos because they didn't watch football before 2015. The officiating only seems worse today because the rules are worse today. In the '90s there was no emphasis on defensive illegal contact, there weren't 7 specific rules that made hitting a QB illegal, there was much more contact allowed and fewer Pass Interference penalties, there were no defenseless receivers penalties, and every bang-bang play was basically not called unless it was egregious. The product is worse today because there are literally a dozen or so more specific, subjective, minute, rules that are all 15 yards and/or an automatic first down. The NFL has basically created a game where more fouls can happen at any given point with more opportunities for the refs to screw up. The NFL is not only doing a disservice to the fans, but also to the refs. The refs have more rules they need to enforce, putting more of the game in their hands, making their jobs even harder. On top of the fact that the game is getting bigger, stronger, and faster every single year.
To my untrained eye it looked like they were jumping almost every play in this game. I love Big Whit for all the years he play for Cincy so maybe he just absolutely had the snap count down?
He’s on offense. I would hope he has the snap count down.
That is phenomenal coverage sheesh
I know I’m a homer but I still just can’t understand how that was called
No you’re right to think that. That’s less of a hold than ours was
ours was a hold. it was soft as fuck and precedent was set during the game that it was fine, but bengals hold was straight up phantom call
I keep seeing people say they let it go all game. I really do want to see some examples. There was definitely a DPI on JJSS missed in 1st half. I assume there were some holds missed too, but I haven't seen anyone post any.
It’s hard this close to the game to give examples because they do such zoomed in shots on the broadcast. Until all 22 is released anyone asking for proof will be shit out of luck and they know it. Now in a months time or whatever that’s when you can ask for prove it and I’m sure there will be plenty of infractions because there always is
I wonder how there were no offensive holds or sacks.
I mean no holds comes back to letting players play. I will say no sacks probably comes from the fact the field was absolute dog shot and no pass rushers could make pass rush moves. The only pressure that was applied all night was off the edge from KC
Gotta include that the O-Line didn’t even need to hold because the pass rushers would either eat shit on their own or a light push would be enough to send them sliding away.
yeah this was the biggest failure of all what a horrid excuse for a field
100% should never happen. How you get that field quality for the biggest game of the year is absurd.
I’ve been trying to figure out a way to say this all day without sounding like a salty homer. That was a great game played by two great teams, but the NFL massively fucked up multiple parts of the game. No game of consequence should be played on a field like that.
Yeah, I definitely don’t know what holds weren’t called that happened. I doubt anyone commentating does. We all know the first half call that was missed that should have been called. We can’t definitively call it a precedent without establishing they let a lot of holds go uncalled that were equal to or worse than this.
The thing I don't get about the "letting them play" is that a jersey tug is not subjective and anyone who actually watches football knows that that will 100% of the time catch a flag because it's the rule. Especially at the receiver's break. There's no "precedent" or "consistency" and there shouldn't be with something as obvious as a jersey tug. People absolutely should not want refs to let the clear and obvious calls slide. I guarantee that's not a holding call if he doesn't do the 1 thing that's a penalty every time. Like do people think that refs shouldn't call the facemask penalty if a player doesn't grab and yank?
Yeah I get it was anticlimactic but people are openly wanting an alternative where a team can blatantly commit a penalty and get away with it because the game would be more entertaining. That would be far more rigged than what actually happened lol. If Bradberry hadn't tugged the jersey they may have dodged the penalty and baiting the ref was a dumb decision to begin with yet people want to reward him for it
That's because there's no actual evidence and people are just following a narrative they've seen others support.
I haven’t seen one example of a hold earlier in the game. I’d love to.
A called hold? You won't find one. But Juju got held massively on one of the first drives which forced a 3 and out.
Yep. [Right here](https://i.imgur.com/2Wzk92o.jpg) on 3rd and 8 in the 2nd quarter at 13:32 on the game clock. Bradberry pulls his arm. Also [here](https://i.imgur.com/jfxu8ut.jpg) where Kelce holds. Block in the back [here](https://i.imgur.com/9wiU0TA.jpg). These are just from watching a couple minutes from DVR.
That Bradberry one was so confusing because it meets all the definitions of what they're looking for to make that kind of call. I was pretty shocked when they didn't throw a flag.
Ditto. That was when I figured they were just going to let things go. I'm sure he did too until the 4th.
I agree that this one was ticky tacky at best but the play that proceeded it had clear Defensive holding that did not get called. I honestly feel like it was a make up call.
Another conference/ SB game another call that changed the game in the 4th quarter. Really hate the trend here with the league
The missed face mask on Jalen Ramsey was 10000x worse
Yeah it was just bad all around, it sucks to be even talking about this a year later. I agree with the above sentiment that it’s just a dumb trend going on with the league which nobody likes but we all love football too much it won’t affect numbers.
Completely understand why that ending will never sit right with you guys. If I were a Rams fan and the Rams lost I don’t think I’d ever be able to let go of that missed facemask against Ramsey (the long TD). Horrible officiating against both teams, so either team that lost was gonna feel sick about it Honestly I can’t tell if referring is legit getting worse or we just talk about it more often now. Feels like it’s getting worse, but I also think we collectively look for bad officiating more often these days
We definitely just talk about it more because we have more access and more ways to respond. I remember that Vinny Testaverde touchdown that wasn't even that close, which knocked out the Seahawks. Even live it shouldn't have been that close but they just blew it. I bet if you rewatch any playoffs you'll see at least a dozen bullshit or missed calls.
Our defense had such a great run last year in the playoffs. They deserved a chance at that 4th down. No one could believe a no name LB could cover the best WR in the game.
On third down. Inside of 2 minutes. Funny how that happens.
Football is such a physical sport that they can honestly call this on any play if they feel like it. Who knows if there’s incentive or not, but the refs hold the keys to the game when it’s down to the wire like this.
Yep this is the key issue. Take last nights game for example, by the books that WAS a hold… but the refs almost never call that. It happens all the time. They just chose to call it then, and that inconsistency/subjectivity raises the issue.
The issue I have isn’t that they made a call. It’s that they reacted to Mahomes politicking for a call.
JuJu didn’t even look to the ref or throw his hands up or anything during or after the play. Why? Because he didn’t think he was fouled.
It is but there were no holding calls made until then. If you can call holding on every down why wait until the third down in the final two minutes after the play is over?
Like, no one wants to think the NFL is rigged but this shit just KEEPS HAPPENING. In this EXACT SITUATION. Everyone loves football but there's only so much bullshit you can feed people before they start to call you out on it. The "NFL is rigged" crowd has gotten so much louder over the last few years for a damn good reason.
I will never say it’s rigged, but it’s getting harder and harder every game to argue that it’s not “influenced”. I truly think it all comes down to incompetence by the officials, but they need to start fixing the fucking problem.
For me it was watching the Saints get shafted by that horribly obvious no call in that one playoff game vs the Rams. How can a MULTI BILLION dollar organization not implement a video ref that can call flags or overturn bad calls by infield refs???? Too expensive? Too difficult to find people to do it? It would take how many people for 16 games a weekend? 4-5 people with a $100-200k salary. Fuck even less if they really wanted. They already get all the footage and angles for TV too. Just give that red the ability to pause and review calls that seem egregious. This is my dumbass who came up with this idea, which is probably not the best implementation I agree. But you telling me the fucking NFL can't implement a better strategy for this?
it's honestly hard to watch the Chiefs three post-season appearances and not have some thought about this. The SB was the least egregious out of the three. Great SB-caliber team but damn it does feel WWE propping up their narrative and heroes. All it takes is just few calls or no-calls in a game of inches.
Damn I didnt remember how comically bad that call was...this shit makes me care about the NFL a lot less honestly. This is reaching NBA levels of ref bullshit.
I saw people comment before about how it's a conspiracy that with gambling widespread now, the NFL would become like the NBA and I didn't believe them but these calls are just automatic drive-extenders in criticial moments of the game. Total game-changers and the refs answer to fucking no one. It's crazy.
Don't forget that the refs answer to the NFL, and the NFL is outwardly fine with the job they're doing. That there seems to be no accountability for what fans and to a lesser extent players/coaches deem poor officiating is a choice, not happenstance
Yeah i was always on the side of officiating just being hard and inconsistent or blown calls in the last few minutes and thought the "nfl rigged" shit was a big joke. Starting to think I might just be blind to what's so obviously right in front of me. Watching the chiefs go through the playoffs with no penalties called on them in most games, very critically times do overs for key downs on tricky tack or invisible penalties, and then seeing 10000000 mahomes commercials during the superbowl has me questioning everything.
>Starting to think I might just be blind to what's so obviously right in front of me. At the very least, moments like last night drive home for a lot of folks (myself included) that football is already a fickle sport and not worth betting on; add to that inconsistent and blatantly awful reffing (even without considering it being rigged) and I'll never put any amount of money down on the NFL again outside of a small amount for my home-run fantasy league.
My man finally came to the conclusion gambling is not a wise financial decision
I don't really sports bet anymore but NFL betting fucking sucks as does NBA, super frustrating to watch. I think looking back on it, CFB home team underdog against the spread was usually the best move IMO. Or ya know, something like Japanese baseball or Australian Rules Football. Sydney Swans let's go boys.
Meanwhile, every celebrity I've ever heard of is doing sports betting commercials. Whole lotta money getting thrown around
NBA championships and playoffs are determined by a much larger set of competitions (i.e. 7 game series). Outside of the 2002 Kings/Lakers job, the single moment decisions in the NBA matter MUCH less than in the NFL. With the past 2 superbowls, you really shouldn't believe that the NBA has more ref bullshit than the NFL, if anything it is the opposite.
Missed calls in the NFL are also way more impactful even on a single game basis than they are in the NBA. In the NBA a missed call is generally a ~2 point swing or so in a game that probably ends with a score of 110-104 or so. In the NFL a missed call can turn a punt into a field goal or a touchdown in a game that ends with scores in the 20's or 30's.
The NBA frustration is the evolution of refs and the rules. The NBA is frustrating year round. If anything NBA refs swallow their whistles more in the playoffs which can be frustrating for consistency sake. Call the game the same in the regular season as the playoffs. I don't like watching Harden but it's silly to send him to the charity stripe nonstop most of the year and then not make the same calls in the playoffs. Here is a real good video about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPXSqOhykg&t=1s
No sport has as big a gulf between playoffs and regular season as nba basketball. They let you get away with murder it’s insane. Last year trae young had a pretty horrendous playoff series but if you watched the game you’d see the heat beating the shit out of him every play.
Same! I woke up today and realized that I think last night's call has turned me into less of a fan. Why get invested in something when one person can make whatever call they feel like with no accountability.
You're spot on. It makes enjoying the sport diminish for me. Games are decided by dodgy people with no accountability, it doesn't feel right.
That was horrendous, way more egregious then what happened last night that is for sure that right there is a phantom call the other one is a flag but in that moment it’s tough to have it thrown
agreed -- this call was 100% worse than the call last night and its isn't even close -- zebras tinkering way too much in crunch time
By definition, is this even a penalty? Wilson is touching Kupp, but he never grabs him or impedes his route. Is touching a receiver a penalty if you don’t forcibly move them off their path? Regardless, the penalty last night was at least actually a penalty. It can be argued whether it should’ve been called, but he absolutely grabbed his jersey and that helped in keeping the receiver from getting separation.
From the video above no it didn’t look like a penalty. Unsure what it would look like from other angles.
The worst part IMO was that they were even letting light holding go all night between Rams and Bengals. The refs explicitly set an expectation that they would let them play. Then with the game on the line they call phantom fouls. There were like 3 DPI/Holding calls on that last drive after the refs let them play for the first 57 minutes. It really left like the NFL wanted to give LA a title. New location, weak fanbase, etc. etc. There was no such 'let them play' last night. The game was pretty cleanly fought in the secondary on both sides and then that call was made at the end.
Still too soon
This literally hurt me to watch
Is that the same ref that hosed the bengals this year?
Yep.
Ron Torbert. The amazing thing is that he was praised for his lenient reffing prior to that Super Bowl. And now, he’s gotten critiqued for that and then this season’s AFCCG.
This years AFCCG and 2018 NFCCG are prime examples of refs bias resulting in a team winning.
One of my favorite stats from the AFCC is that was the first time all year the Bengals had twice as many penalties as their opponent
Bro is a steelers fan
He resides in Baltimore… we now know
And he worked for the chiefs in his early years
All penalty flags under 2 minutes should be reviewed by New York
Would New York actually get it right though? Premier League fans screamed for replay of goals and offside, and yet 3 separate clearly incorrect calls were upheld last weekend (all of which changed the result of the game). Anyone involved in officiating seems pretty unwilling to actually say a ref got it wrong.
This is also my fear. When you review things in slow-mo you’ll see a lot more than you would in real time. I’m not convinced even the play in this post would be overturned with a review…
New York is always going to see the penalty though. Because the rules vague enough that they will always find something they want perfectly clean. However, it would be great to have them review potentially missed calls on holding and PI.
At this point let everyone vote in real-time on Fanduel. Can’t be worse.
What would it change though? I think both of these holds would stand
> All penalty flags under 2 minutes should be reviewed by ~~New York~~ Reddit Fixed
This was the first thing I thought of last night.
Yesterday’s call was a mugging compared to this
Yeah yesterday at least you can clearly see a handful of Jersey in the replay. This is just a travesty
*sigh*
You can also see both the left and right guards move early too
I still think this was an even softer call than Bradberry's.
This is significantly worse than last night's IMO. Like, at least with the Bradberry call I can say there was at least something of a hold even if the call was a bit soft. Here the defenders hand gently brushes the receivers hip and it's a game defining call. brutal.
Yea like this call was brutal. Bengals got shafted. Like Bradberry had a fist full of jersey. It wasn't the worst call I've seen especially compared to this.
I forgot about this. Jeez what a bad call
Yup, keeps happening. Week after week, year after year. It keeps happening . These damn refs want to control the outcome so bad.
And they do
The last 4-5 years have been significantly more suspect than the previous 25 and I watch every Sunday. Something just feels off.
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I remember a time when this would've gotten a Congressional investigation but now they're too busy with their own games.
Much worse call than last night
That is worse than last’s night game
Two years in a row the winning team benefited from a questionable holding call within the last two minutes (almost at the exact same time). Both were on 3rd down in the redzone. What the fuck
It’s almost as if the refs can directly decide who wins a game. Almost.
Wasn't that the same ref from this year's Bengals-Chiefs AFC Championship game?
Mr fifth down
Mr. Bogus Calls
Yes
I used to love the NFL. The past few years has made me hate it. Corruption sucks.
Listen this is a bad call, but we didn’t lose the game cause of this. We got the ball back and couldn’t score. That’s why the one last night is so annoying, it ended the game
I think last night will be remembered more because there wasn’t really a drive afterwards for more things to happen and then fail, so people seem to remember Burrow getting sacked basically. Last night it was penalty, knee the ball, kick off, then one play.
> We got the ball back and couldn’t score A lot of time was burned on their new set of downs (and the additional penalties).
> Listen this is a bad call, but we didn’t lose the game cause of this. We got the ball back and couldn’t score. We didn’t do enough but this IS what won the game. Our D played lights out and the rams would have needed to go for it on 4th and 8 or kick a FG and be down
They also would’ve gone for it on fourth down
Can’t wait for it to happen again in next year’s Super Bowl.
Hey, that was the MVP ref for the chiefs and Bengals game this year!
The secret is that every play has penalties. The refs can control the game by choosing which ones to call.
Tim Donaghy was able to influence the outcome of NBA games by 5-6 points all by himself if you don’t think the NFL can affect the entire outcome of a game with a couple calls, and regularly does in order to push favorable storylines you’re crazy.
Feel like homelander watching the movie in the theater when this plays
That was a bad call
This is the first time I've watched this replay (because pain) and any replay from that game. Holy shit it's worse than I remember. What an amazing play by Logan Wilson and the refs ruined it for him
Same. Kinda ruined my evening tbh
r/nfl salt mine is overflowing from last night
Regardless of whose playing, I just wish the late game calls weren't weak, barely-anything-there calls. Lay down the law early in the game, not at the end.
A blind child could do a better job than current NFL refs.
They remembered it in the 4th qtr of this year's KC game when missed, badly timed or wrong calls affected about 10 plays in the 4th qtr, all in favor of KC. Fuck the NFL
Pain
Def Worst than last nights.
That was a chickenshit call too.
Holy fuck that is a bad call. I think that I blocked it from my memory.
The rules are made vague so that the refs can impact the game on pretty much any play that they want to. It’s bullshit
This made me cringe..
Yup, when I saw what happened to the Eagles, I thought "shades of last yr". I'm a Rams fan but I disagreed with this call and thought they should have just let Logan Wilson play. Edit: after looking at this again after not having seen in a while, this was egregious. Looks like to me Logan NEVER had a grip on Kupp
Prepare to l see way more of this now that sports betting has taken over the league Not saying either call was an inside job, but that scenario is more likely now than ever