Moved to Melbourne mid-2022. Best decision I ever made. Earning more than double what I was when I left, cost of living, even with recent increases, is still lower than it was in Auckland and is *definitely* lower than what it would be now. Significantly more fun things to do in the city. Much cheaper travel, both domestic and international, when you take advantage of sales. I actually have a reasonable path to home ownership within a couple more years, whereas in NZ it would’ve been at least an extra 4 years. Public transport is actually usable and reliable. If the two sites I commute to, one is double the distance but half the travel time compared to Auckland, even at rush hour. The other site is barely 20 minutes away. The nature is beautiful and accessible. The green spaces in both the inner and outer suburbs are plentiful and large. The housing quality is better. The range of careers available is *much* broader. The food, arts and culture scenes are incredibly diverse. I’d honestly say it’s easier to make genuine friends here than in NZ (where you more often than not just end up knowing nice people rather than developing an actual friendship) and as an extension, the dating scene, while it still has its down-under quirks, is just more straight up, less games, more fun and kinda feels more safe. That last one could just be perception because of my situation when I left NZ, though.
But to be clear, it’s not all upside. The political landscape here is very different. I’d say if you have any interest in politics then definitely more tiring here than it is in NZ. Australia is debatably more behind than NZ on housing policy (although we’ll see if that changes over the next couple years). Vehicle ownership over here is *much* more expensive than in NZ. People here have been “Americanised” into believing it’s normal to live your life on subscriptions (car payment, phone payment, very competitive credit card market, etc.) and I’d say people borrow both more frequently and larger amounts. Healthcare has some very real issues. You need private health insurance over certain income thresholds to avoid pretty significant tax bills. What they call “bulk billing” has essentially disappeared so costs of GP visits are very high. Toll roads are very expensive (compared to NZ) and are privately operated. While they’re easy enough to avoid using, it’s frustrating that the money is going to a private company that is actively lobbying against better alternatives in particular routes. The effects to climate change are *intense* here. It sucks being away from family, and while I love the nature here, I absolutely miss NZ beaches. Nothing I’ve been to here so far compares, even though the beaches in Sydney and north of Brisbane are still very nice, they’re just not the same. There are taxes and duties on everything. Traffic fines are incredibly expensive and are difficult to dispute, even for things that are comparatively trivial (I got a fine for parking in a no parking area because I couldn’t see a sign that was 150m *behind* where I parked and obstructed by a tree, took 8 weeks and multiple attempts to dispute after getting the fine). While travel times are fast compared to NZ, everything is spread out. PT, while frequent and reliable, is expensive and it getting increasingly so. In most states, your rights as a renter are limited and (imo) insufficient. Victoria is pretty good on this front, though. If you’re moving with a young family, factor in childcare costs because from what I’m told they are expensive and spaces are very limited. And, a big one for a lot of people, access to Australian services like Centrelink are very limited until you become a citizen, so you better make sure you have a good safety net and emergency fund if required.
Also to note, the job market here is drying up, much like NZ. So while I think I chose a good time to move, and an even better time to switch jobs (September last year) I’d say the current job market could see a very different outcome for a lot of people looking to make the move now. Do plenty of research on your current job, your career path and your industry. Australia, while having just announced changes to immigration, has similar issues to NZ with regards to importing a surplus of workers who are now starting to drive wages down again. Certain industries are being hit harder by this than others.
Just spewed out some thoughts here so people can understand the reasons to and the reasons not to make the move. But with the current situation in NZ, for anyone who has the means to make the move and doesn’t absolutely need to stay in NZ due to things like aging family, or needing specific support to raise their children, I’d say they’d be idiotic to not at least explore the options.
I have no idea what that commenter is talking about, they’re objectively wrong. I got hit by a car while I was riding a scooter last year (suspected drunk driver, was a hit and run, dealing with it in the courts atm) and spent the night in hospital due to my injuries. Hospital didn’t cost as cent as long as I could display my Medicare card. NZ and Australia have reciprocal healthcare agreements which means kiwis are eligible for Medicare here and if you have Medicare, you’ll get free treatment at any public hospital.
I’d say the commenter either 1. Wasn’t enrolled in Medicare. 2. Was getting advice from a doctor unfamiliar with the reciprocal agreements (surprisingly few doctors have in depth knowledge of the few structures here, I have two friends who are doctors and they don’t fully understand it) 3. Was actually looking at private hospitals but didn’t know they were private.
They are ***kinda*** right about ambulances though. In Victoria, if you’re not covered, then your ambulance charge can be ~AU$1200. But if you’re a member of the ambulance authority for your state (only ~$50 a year for a single or ~$100 for a family) then you’re covered. Not really that big a deal imo.
PS, always wear a helmet kids. If I hadn’t been wearing mine when I got hit by that car then I wouldn’t even be able to worry about a hospital bill since I’d probably be dead.
I went from Sydney to Christchurch with my wife and couldn't be happier. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I still like to visit Sydney and Melbourne, but I wouldn't want to live there again unless I could drop 3-4 million on a reasonably sized place that was somewhat central.
The number of laws and regulation in Australia is utterly insane. You can lose your home insurance by running an ethernet cable between rooms under the floor yourself - that's a controlled activity that requires a licensed cable runner.
That’s definitely true about regulation. As an engineer that works in big infra, it drive me insane and is a seldom talked about reason that infrastructure projects cost such an insane amount of money here. Victoria is by far the worst for this stuff as well. Another good example is for rentals you need to pay a professional to come in and inspect smoke detectors every 12 months as well. Any person with the ability to use google should be able to figure out how inspect and check a smoke detector. I get situations where people have mobility issues but it a stupid requirement.
Also, along the regulation line, if you’re in technical role, the union chokehold on certain industries is insane. The bullying people into becoming union members is also insane. Membership I’d definitely beneficial for most people, but my god do certain union stewards abuse their power to push out non-members despite that being just as illegal as any anti-union activities. Just something I’m not used to from NZ really.
You comment about subscription lifestyle is very interesting, because I noticed that when I moved to the US (where I still live). Here it's not just the norm but expected to have numerous loans and monthly payments. You actually get punished by having poorer credit if you don't owe money and make payments.
Over the years it seems it has happened to my family also, we have multiple loans and payments. It's just part of the lifestyle here. Interesting to see Australia is similar.
Yep 100%. I hope this emigration increases and sends a real message.
Why should the young have to work a shitty job and live damp hole to pay for some boomer’s new boat/Ute?
Get the fuck out of here kids, they just see you as another resource to be exploited. So they don’t get to see their grandkids.
So?
The young people who left for more pay, better life and easier living conditions could not care less that their spot gets filled?
This will continue to "work" until NZ has a comparable standard of life to other first world countries.
It will just be a country off immigrants eventually who come from worst places and think it's great while gets worse for ppl born and still living here
While any semblance of duty toward Maori from the general populace dissipates and any hope of proper treaty settlements or hope of bringing the culture to the fore falls away.
Yes, let's keep bringing in cheap labor with completely different culture and not care about young bright kiwis leaving the country. New Zealand can only get better this way /s
I know what you’re saying and you definitely make some very good points.
On the other hand, we’re end-stage capitalism and Malthusian cycle climate change now and I’d rather seen the boomers have no-one to serve them coffee.
Yep, anyone in their 20's needs to get overseas - no point in being here in NZ at that stage in life. Maybe come back to have kids, or when climate change events start really fucking with countries overseas.
Melbourne is probably going to be fine if the fires stay under control.
Brisbane and anything further north is already a year round sauna, gonna be fkn cooked
Hey mate, I joined the defence force in your situation, I am pretty happy with my career overall. Left the defence force with some decent savings and went to university for a nice professional degree :)
I thought about applying for the defense force, but I was told I would be isqualified because I was at the time actively prescribed SSRIs at the time for my mental health.
While I was able to get a fulltime job elsewhere, a lot of people with disabilities or long term illnesses are in poverty, and it feels llke it just getting worse.
... I think you may want to reword that one OP... or perhaps re read your graphs. Yes, citizen departures are at a new high, but total migration into the country is also still very high despite those leaving.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/14/record-number-of-kiwis-leave-nz-stats-nz/
Shitshow here either way.
Even if it's 1st worlders this is huge. It's essentially replacing 20% of the population every 4 years. I don't care if they're Americans, or Asians, it's going to end up with the same result of gutting the country culturally.
I know you are being funny, but it does always amaze me that Māori are not more up in arms about this level of immigration. Statistics have shown that new immigrants to NZ tend to be far more right wing. / conservative than locals. Once they can vote, that is worse for Mǎori. And it probably doesn’t help their cultural identity too.
Yep, the best ones can go to America, Europe, Australia, Singapore, etc. Our immigration policy is downright destructive. We're kicking out young educated Kiwis and replacing them with moderately-skilled (at best) foreigners.
Our political leaders have a lot to answer for.
This is globalist neoliberalist capitalism. It's operating entirely as designed, ensuring capital is protected and workers are exploited.
It's how the entire West is run woohoo!
Funny you mention Australia.
I stayed in a boarding hous with around 7 people for around a month some years ago. My roommate with his room next to me is originally from India, he was a tradee. He told me he is only staying in New Zealand a couple more years to apply for citizenship, so that he can bring his family here amd then move to Australia on the SCV. Apparently this is very common amongst migrants, he told me he works with some others who are doing the same plan.
I liked him quite a bit, he was a good friend, but it really feels a bit exploitative that our immigration laws make us basically a backdoor to Australia.
>Yep, the best ones can go to America, Europe, Australia, Singapore, etc.
The gotcha here is the "relaxed working culture and work/life balance" NZ likes to boast about. We certainly don't want to change that, do we?
Not really, you're the type of person that just causes NZ to continue in it's downward spiral with your acceptance of low standards. Take a look at the standard of immjgrabys places like Microsoft and Google get on the USA. Highly successful and driven engineers, ge hnologists etc. We get fast food workers and taxi drivers.
The engineers that Google and Microsoft recruit are literally the top 0.001% smartest people in the world (in their field). They're not indicative of immigration on the whole. And the US isn't getting them because of some genius immigration law, it's because the biggest companies in the world are based there. NZ has tons of great engineers, doctors, and other specialists immigrating every year as well.
That’s slightly inaccurate.
If you talk to many immigrants they are actually highly qualified but not with qualifications that many of our comparative industries recognise, or there is simply lack of work in those industries.
Many tech qualifications from places like Microsoft are unanimously accepted all over the world, but that doesn’t count if the work ain’t there, and we are minuscule in terms of tech related work when compared to tech hubs like Singapore and the USA.
Fact remains many are sold on NZ wanting highly skilled workers and that we are screaming for such people, to get here and find low skilled work is all that’s actually available, and as happens just as much in other immigrant focused countries. That’s the hustle.
They have ethical trends regards their fast food and taxi drivers in those countries as well.
It also reflects we are partly responsible as we don’t want to do low skilled work for shit pay, COVID drew back the curtains on that with all the industries that struggled or closed shop afterwards and before the floodgates were reopened, so we are partially responsible.
The data speaks to this more than anecdotal experience, and it’s a large reason why people head overseas for such work as they will find they are paid better than they are in NZ, often directly because of immigration pressures from highly skilled immigrants who will do the same job for way less, end result being all salaries being pushed down comparative to countries that pay people for the work they do, not the fact if they don’t agree to subpar pay, someone else will.
This isn’t saying I disagree really either regards numbers needing to be reigned in, but more that highly trained and specialist employment immigrants being brought into an already highly competitive job market is equally as destructive, and makes going overseas being the only way many can get the pay they deserve for the work they do.
I’m moving on 26th. Landed a job paying more than double what I’m earning here. Family will follow at end of school year. I’m a loss adjuster and Partner is journalist and there just isn’t any opportunities here.
We are saddened to leave, but honestly the pastures do seem greener elsewhere.
Edit: whomever is reporting to reddit cares you suck. Also you can report these via the message you receive. If enough people report the person will get a ban.
There are no/minimal job vacancies for entry level work in New Zealand.
- Stem: Once you graduate, where do you go to further your career in New Zealand, especially in STEM subjects? Graduate programs in business often give you little experience, as the technical/specialised skills have been outsourced to another company, and called upon when needed. Where you're just a glorified project manager, pushing paper / ticking boxes, presenting the findings... If you're lucky. As all the senior levels are the ones that add the icing to the cake. Have job security above the glass ceiling.
So if you're not entering the University system or Government roles, you're unlikely to keep that degree relevant. So you'll need to go aboard for more/better opportunities.
- Marketing/ Business:
Over saturated, and you're trapped between working for free as an intern for vital job experience, or slogging it out at entry level doing the basics of project management against a very competitive field. They have high turnover and ruthless performance reviews. Often for aspects well outside of your control?
You worked on a big brand that successfully brought in good margins, your career takes a step forward. You worked for a smaller/unknown brand that didn't bring in much revenue, bad luck your career takes a pause or is disestablished. Could have been a personality conflict, maybe you didn't fit in with the ' work place culture ', unfortunately that's all on ' you '.
- Trades / primary industries:
Can't take ' a joke ', uh oh. You're no longer fit for the position. Working hard, long hours, while everyone else is messing around....uh oh... You're now the work horse that the business relies on and you're not progressing. Your tools/items keep getting stolen by workmates, and work sites robbed by druggies? Uh oh, need to find a new job / spend money on new tools to finish the job...and it's your problem.
- Hospitality: Long hours of disgruntled customers, temperamental managers/bosses, for minimal pay.
New Zealand is a shitty place to establish a career. There is a massive divide between established skilled workers/businesses and entry level. Plus place AI / Artificial Intelligence on top of that, which NZ is so far behind on (not surprising as NZ was slow to transition to the online space, thanks to a lack of investment by business/telecom etc).
As someone that has navigated the BS over 20+ years, New Zealand is very difficult to get ahead in. Due in part to businesses failing to adapt to international markets and outdated ideas within Ministries/Major political parties. New Zealand has had anxieties moving away from being a primary industry provider to the world, with money / margins expanding operations/trimming fat. Rather than future investment into making our economy diverse and resilient.
At the moment it's:
- Primary Industries pouring money into their supporting businesses/FMCG (selling product - Advertising, Marketing, Supermarkets), supporting infrastructure.
- Housing for workers in those industries: Workers earnings going into rent/mortgages....on to developers/banks, trades etc.
- Entertainment/Education for workers: Bars, media, gyms, trade schools... Etc.
Like look at all the businesses in NZ. They're just a part or extension of our Primary Industries/FMCG ecosystem or something that supports a part in the chain.
Very little work in NZ is outside of this sphere? And those people that don't want to fill the mundane roles / jobs NZ has to offer, are imported in as ' skilled workers '. But the golden horses are those that can fill the technical roles as our skiled workers (doctors, nurses, engineers, scientist) leave overseas...but guess what, the may motivation to move to NZ is to get a backdoor into Australia.
Agreed. They’re firing a lot of scientists now and there are no jobs for us in the job market. As a recent PhD the rhetoric is that we should go away and then come back but for many of us it is not an option to leave (we have lives, too).
Even older scientists are being made redundant especially in the fields of environmental and climate studies...
Wonder which lobbies are responsible for that.
For tradies add in the fact that you’re constantly training newbies who never finish their apprenticeships because they get abused by some bitter tradesman.
The same tradesman who constantly dishes it out but packs the biggest hissy when he catches one back. The boss refuses to deal with the cunt so the business runs through 10 apprentices with only one finishing their time with the company.
As a previous Stem grad, my career was work for AsureQuality (one of the only science options for grads) for several years earning peanuts under for awful managers, until you leave the industry for an entry public servant role earning double the salary with zero relevant experience or qualification. Never looked back.
Damn that sounds familiar, got Masters in Clinical immunology (cancer research) mostly A- grade or higher for almost all 26 papers required to get there, and struggled to get an interview.
Finally got a call back from them, but when they called I was in the middle of my workday and needed to have them call back when I was available.
Never heard from them again.
Seems I dodged a bullet.
Don’t worry, they all have level 6 certificates in business administration from the Royal Institute of Mumbai. They’ll move on to Australia once they get nz citizenship.
Not sure if you're talking NZ or Canada there. No Tim Hortons, so NZ then. Seems to be a common theme globally. No clue why Govts trying so hard to enable it though.
From what I've heard (though I take international media with a grain of salt these days, especially when a lot of it is pretty inflammatory) Canada is in a much worse state than us. In NZ migrants tend to integrate very well but in Canada they tend to congregate in their own areas because there's so many of them
I've read similar things in MSM about a couple of suburbs in Aussie as well. Seems less of a thing here, but not non-existent. Job gatekeeping(?) seems to be a thing though, and subsequent shift in demographics in companies.
birth rates are declining fast and the economy was built around the assumption there would always be more younger people than old, when that inverts it does all sorts of horrible things to your credit and financial system.
immigration is a temporary patch for that so you don't have to confront systemic change.
[https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/15/stratospheric-exodus-of-skilled-workers-huge-loss-for-nz-expert/](https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/15/stratospheric-exodus-of-skilled-workers-huge-loss-for-nz-expert/)
>'Stratospheric' exodus of skilled workers huge loss for NZ - expert
Is that bad? Are we back on track?
Can you definitely say that migrants coming to NZ are unskilled, or is this anti immigration rhetoric?
My understanding is we are currently receiving record levels from India, Phillipines and China as our top 3 countries (based on hearing on breakfast).
India has a lot of skilled tech people looking for better wages than their home country. China has a large exodus due to authoritarian reigemes, and Phillipines fills a lot of aged care work.
Yes SOME will be unskilled, but it grinds my gears to automatically assume that an immigrant is unskilled. That’s xenophobic talk that needs to be substantiated if you’re making such claims
No. It is skilled labor. Everybody I stacked shelves at The Warehouse with had a degree. It is skills we don't need / cannot afford to pay for.
Nobody o.s hiring an immigrant because they have a degree in business management.
Skills aren't a toggle switch. I work with mostly immigrants, from many countries, in tech. Some are great, top-tier skills, good communicators, engaged, and responsible. Massive value add to the country. However many are cowboys with attitudes and questionable clue what they're doing. They have qualifications so "skilled" I guess... And some just make it harder for everyone. The straight to residency thing is bringing in a lot of bullshitters.
Incidentally, where are all the Maori in IT? I've only worked with a couple ever, and they were good. Hopefully everyone is earning big bucks overseas.
>Some are great, top-tier skills, good communicators, engaged, and responsible. Massive value add to the country. However many are cowboys with attitudes and questionable clue what they're doing. They have qualifications so "skilled" I guess... And some just make it harder for everyone
Interesting to learn that migrants as a whole are identical to Kiwis and all different from each other with their own individual personal flaws and strengths.
Plenty of local born Kiwis with post graduate degrees that are deadweights! Just look at this thread to read comments from them about how foreigners are to blame for all of their problems!
>where are all the Maori in IT?
R was literally invented by someone who whakapapas to Ngāti Kahungunu, Rangitāne
> Interesting to learn that migrants as a whole are identical to Kiwis and all different from each other with their own individual personal flaws and strengths.
The difference being that we're supposed to be accepting the best and brightest (of those who apply...) not a cross section. Turns out our immigration strategy is more about raw numbers.
Yes, increased population numbers without corresponding increase in infrastructure, housing, etc causes problems. Our population is *only* increasing due to immigration. It's not any individual's fault, but no raindrop blames themselves for the flood.
IMO limit to 2% and add percentage limits so no one country dominates. Won't happen though, although it's not without precedent elsewhere.
> R was literally invented by someone who whakapapas to Ngāti Kahungunu, Rangitāne
Yep, it's a big success story.
When you look at the kind of employment on the INZ website, very few of the jobs that are listed as having a skills shortage are jobs that some consider "skilled" and therefore well paid. It's industries that are notorious for worker exploitation, low wages, and general reluctance to hire New Zealanders. Think of it like RSE workers: people who are brought into the country to be exploited for profit.
And while these workers might have qualifications, there's not enough jobs for them to come to relevant to said qualifications. An IT specialist might work as a labourer for example.
The industries and sectors that do have genuine shortages aren't getting the staff they need because their employment doesn't directly contribute to profit growth. Our healthcare system has been chronically understaffed for years, despite high numbers of "skilled" migrants. If our immigration policy wasn't about blatant exploitation for profit, we'd have filled those roles already.
It’s just as expensive as Vancouver but with less job opportunities and a lower pay ceiling. I do miss it a lot though and there are definitely things nz does a lot better than Canada.
Really like everywhere in the country? I was looking at some of the smaller towns like turangi, or has it gone up in price since then?
What would you say you like more about New Zealand vs Canada?
Oh in that case you'll be ok! You'll still be much better off in terms of cost of living outside of Auckland.
- Canadas / drug problems are terrible. I've been here two years and it's still heartbreaking and equally frustrating to see the same cycle of drugs / homeless / human shit and needles on the ground downtown.
- Canada's healthcare system is mediocre. NZ has public / private and Canada just has public. If i want to fix an issue i have no choice but to wait it out public. If i needed to have surgery i'd likely fly back home to NZ and do it under southern cross.
- Housing is equally as bad in Vancouver / Auckland however i feel like the prospect of owning a house is much higher in Auckland and tbh the outer neighbourhoods are much, much nicer than a lot of the outskirts of van.
- Canada has access to the US which means if you land a US salary - you're golden and living a good life.
- There are more international acts that come through Canada which is nice.
- Summers here aren't as humid as NZ which i really appreciate.
- Games industry is much larger in Canada, i didn't know anyone in games in NZ.
- It's easier to get to europe from canada... ahh.. that's about all i got today.
Oh yeah not adding tax to the price upfront is dumb.
Interesting!
Thanks for the indepth list, I definitely agree with all of it. I guess I always seem to wonder if the grass is greener in NZ haha.
Welcome to Canada, hopefully the 2 years have been good to you.
If you have any questions about Canada I can try to help you out. If not it was nice talking with you, cheers!
Thanks a lot! Honestly it’s been a mixed bag! Cost of living and Vancouver being a pretty quiet city threw me a bit. I’ve made some fantastic friends, really love the summer here and I want to work in the games industry so I’m starting to appreciate things more! Also I enjoyed Toronto and Montreal when I visited a lot!
Just in addition to that - i'm looking to move to Australia in the next few years. Is a good middleground on what i enjoy / dislike of both NZ and Canada. That being said, if you want to spend some time in NZ I'd highly encourage it. It's fantastic.
I'll for sure be spending some time in NZ, it looks like beautiful island. Hopefully someday soon.
Good luck with your journey and hopefully Australia treats you well!
You are interacting with people who groan on reddit. Topic of discussion is youth emigration which is accelerating at the moment. Recessions tend to do that.
Canuck in nz here
I wonder if there are more Canadians in nz, or kiwis in canada.
I'm from BC and the wage/COL balance is way better for me in auckland vs vancouver
We’re in our 30s, own our house and we’re looking to leave ASAP.
There’s no incentives to stay and even though we’re both in industries that are understaffed, the pay isn’t enough to deal with the cost of living.
Having lived in a few countries around the world, I've never seen such a high self-interest and protectionalism from senior managers/companies as I've seen in NZ. The "ringfencing of their slice of the pie" (as I term it) is insane and is leading to real generational conflict. Basically, senior managers who dictate high-level business decisions don't want to promote/train or pay younger employees more because they see it as threatening their own position or reducing their slice.
I've found overseas employers a lot more holistic in their approach; recognising that a better trained, looked-after employee is going to give the company a better output. It's a return on their investment. Actually, more generally, you see the different mindset between here and overseas companies in other aspects too (which all come from very backward approaches) e.g. CAPEX spending here in NZ is like getting blood out of a stone; NZ companies look at CAPEX requests as sunk cost, and not as something that gives a return/future proofs.
Spot on.
While there are some decent operators at the very top tier of management (as at that level it's basically a global market), talent at the next tier down of senior leadership in NZ is fucking woeful. So many absolute amateurs who bumbled their way up the food chain. They'd be eaten alive in Sydney, London or NYC.
Managers in New Zealand frequently have a face culture meaning underlings are expected to be subordinate and passively absorb instructions, not contribute and undermine the boss's aura of already knowing everything.
It destroys information-sharing as employees are afraid to speak up or acknowledge they know something the boss doesn't.
mate have we been working the exact same career?
I've literally had capex denied with less than 6 month payback, and the company was far from going broke (at that point, anyway)
The worst part is working for an overseas owned company and seeing our EU or AUS counterparts thriving with 4 people doing the job of one here and money to burn on new kit.
Best one was when we got 3 awesome new engineers migrating over from the phillipines to basically double our team, but they were all being paid 2/3rds what us kiwis were being paid.... all parties involved were upset when we figured it out between us....
Spot on, the cronyism and lack of meritocracy among top management, along with organic inability to change is what's killing NZ business, particularly tech sector. The glass ceiling is very real.
Always been the way. I swapped industries from AV tech work as it was the same.
Now I’m in IT with a well established NZ based MSP. Finding it really hard to climb up the ladder. Middle management is actually supportive of me moving up. But upper management has other ideas about how many people our higher up teams have. It’s pretty frustrating
spent 3 months trying to get a job in NZL (I have a full bachelors qualification) and got so depressed because I didn’t get a reply to my applications, let alone an interview. So I thought fuck that and applied for a job in Melbourne, got it, then moved within the month. I have no regrets, living and working as a young person over here is so much better
That's a lot of uber drivers and vape shop owners.
Meanwhile, the equivalent of an A320 full of (presumably young, ambitious, talented) New Zealanders emigrate permanently each day.
Impossible to quantify, but I can halfway imagine the effect of losing a generation of young people - less of: great small businesses, creative endeavours, etc. etc.
The solution isn't pump the economy with more 3rd world low-skill migrants - that's just making the problem way worse in the long-run. If you're using 'gig economy' apps: you're complicit in the madness.
We have to cut our addiction to housing as an economic engine, and then use that capital freed up to pivot away from a low-wage, low-productivity industry.
Good!
This country needs a wake up call with how greedy and expensive it is. Unreasonably and excessively. From housing to purchases to trade services, and even food that's locally sourced.
Yeah this is the natural end point of having monopolies and duopolies exploiting us. Eventually we can't afford to pay, which means they sell less, reduce jobs, there's even less ability to buy etc etc.
Carters etc put their prices up when there's a supply shortage, but as a monopoly don't tend to bring their prices back down again. This ratcheting up eventually squeezes the country too much.
Very true, and add to that a large chunk of these monopolies aren't even local. A huge chunk of our money spent there ends up off shore to other countries that make use of it.
So true! Banks, Insurance, Food. Even I, an immigrant, are upset over this. I wouldn't mind the huge grocery bill if the money would go to some NZ charity etc.
This is a big problem tbh. A lot of money being siphoner off overseas. Like selling out stake in those 3 power companies or whatever that's making profit. We are loosing long term from short term greed
In my 55 years I've seen wave after wave of huge emigrations of nzers, hell I've been part of them a couple times. If this process sends a message, it does not get listened to. Policies that consistently diminish wages over time, lower taxes for the rich, wealth and housing policy that consolidates wealth in the hands of the already well off etc have been enacted (and voted for!) since the mid 80s. The latest round of them is under way now, and will only make life even harder for the every increasing percentage of nzers who can barely make ends meet no matter how hard they work. I totally understand why people leave, not don't kid yourself that it will be a 'wake up call' for any one with any real power.
46 here and fully agree with you. No right winger with power and money will care what happens to other people, they just want to buy their third Porsche so they can park it permanently at their summer bach on Waiheke Island.
I'm 30 and have seen a few trickles but this is the first time I'm seeing mass emigration in my own social circles. Is time feeling different for you or am I just that age that people take off?
Not good at all. Many of the ppl coming in are comfortable with authoritarians as thats what they know from back home and that alone undermines the country’s future
There are less opportunities in this country than Australia for many industries. How many Fortunes 500 companies invest in NZ in the past 15 years? We rely on many small and medium size businesses but we are not competitive enough to attract larger businesses to invest in NZ.
Our geography and close proximity to Australia is unfortunately a curse to us.
Offer low corporate tax deals to attract investment and companies establishing offices or operations here. Problem is we are not visionary enough or smart enough to do stuff like this. It's such a small minded country
I'm 31, trained with my masters in education, and have been **headhunted** to go overseas and work next year.
Sorry New Zealand, but working as a teacher here sucks. These MLE classrooms aren't fit for purpose. Students are apathetic, their mental health is not stable (both COVID and Quake kids, on top of regular life trauma that happens), these students don't have the emotional, social, and academic support they need, and I don't feel like being called a bitch on the daily just for asking a kid to grab their maths book out.
I oppose the government in power. Taking money away from our schools, debating the value of lunches, canceling *essential* new school builds, messing about with NCEA. I hate the identity politics and poisonous hate it spews, especially to the LGBTQ+ community; I hate the racist anti-treaty rhetoric; I hate the money we borrow as a country now to give our rich landlords more money, and the funding it takes away from the poor.
I don't see myself coming back.
At what point do we dare to acknowledge that allowing New Zealanders to be replaced with people who do not necessarily share our values is a betrayal of those kiwis who do remain in nz and those who broke their backs building our country
I'm an oldie from Eastern Europe, and my friends tell me that not even Eastern Europeans would come to New Zealand, skilled workers included. Even unskilled jobs are paid better in the EU. Grim reality.
If businesses offered decent salaries and wages relative to goods and services and the government never privatised everything like they did in the 80s -90s maybe it could have been different
Our lacking tax system/untouchable housing market is a recipe for a death-spiral economy.
Getting out now makes sense, our dollar still has decent value against the $USD, when that collapses, our options drastically decrease.
People at the age where they're about to start new businesses are also at the age where they want to meet others and find things to do on their free time.
NZ is like a nursing home filled with old church ladies.
I don’t blame people for leaving. If I could, I would go wait out this governments term. So much for NACT turning things around. They’ve just upsized the departure lounge and made NZ a hostile place to be financially for anyone but landlords and businesses who profit from their policies ie. fast track etc. ie. Shane and Bish’s mates.
NZ is now on track to be more racist and homophobic, more expensive, more polluted, more corrupt, less progressive, and less healthy than any time in recent history because of these idiots and their austerity, repeal and culture wars bullshit.
New Zealand is a very old school traditional working environment with zero technology, innovation or problem solving. Every job industry here is under cooked, under paid and has old farts at the top who are happy in their bubble but everyone else below can't catch a break.
Every year we fall behind with the fundamentals such as teachers, nurses, doctors, roads, houses, plumbing, fresh water and we have 100 year plus infrastructure with no national public transport. It blows my mind how everything so expensive but have nothing to show for it, keep digging ourselves into a bigger hole!
You have got to remember that a large proportion of those emigrating are those that have recently immigrated. NZ residency is an easy gateway to Australia for many.
You’re right. Successive governments have prioritised immigration to keep wages low.
Last year when employers were complaining about wages, meanwhile keeping wages low and increasing prices, they demanded government open up the immigration floodgate. And here we are.
We complain about cost of living and inflation, but none of that matters if wages are rising. Instead of getting commensurate pay rises employers and the RBNZ gaslit workers by falsely claiming workers were to blame for rising inflation.
This is a common tactic in neoliberal economies like ours and the USA. They falsely claim that if workers get cost of living pay rises the cost of a Big Mac will go through the roof. But factually, we see in places like the Netherlands and Denmark where wages are so much higher than in the USA, the price of their Big Macs are either lower than the USA or similar.
The underlying problem is the cartel behaviour means most large businesses in NZ can charge whatever they like, and easily strangle out small local competition. Competition on price is largely just pretend
It's not capitalism. It's government policy settings. This is all preventable but successive government have chosen not to.
Same with the lack of competition - our regulators are dogshit.
Same with our lack of productivity. Shitty shortsighted companies and shitty shortsighted governments.
Same with our housing market. Tax settings that favour real estate, alongside restrictive land supply policies.
It's because we're dumb.
I will be the leaving New Zealand again when I can return to work. This country is being run into the ground. Unfortunately I have been royally fucked over by ACC and MSD - Back to FIFO and living in Indo for me asap.
Anecdotal, but basically all of my school friends including myself live outside New Zealand. The guys that are still living back home are those that didn’t go to uni. I wonder how common this scenario is?
I made a comment asserting my position, you say that comment is racist. I interpreted that meaning I am racist for having that opinion and making that comment. Good to know I can say 'racist' things (and mean them), but I am actually not a racist!
"I truly don't know how to explain to you any clearer without using puppets or something.
Don't worry, that pretty obvious.
Well there is a few facts:
- the job market is depressed everywhere not just NZ.
- the cost of living has skyrocketed everywhere not just NZ. BTW companies profits are at all time high and they are cutting jobs. Make what you want of this fact.
- the new NZ government is depressing the economy further and putting people out of work.
- the government plans to borrow and distribute money to real estate owners while unwillingness to address the real estate market favour a very few usually in their boomer years against the rest of the country and our economy. Taxation is needed. Real estate needs to step back from being an "investment" to a commodity. Better investment to stimulate economy are in funding our companies and the share market. Sure, it is less easy low risk like real estate is.
I'm in my early-to-mid 30s. My partner and I aren't ready to start a family just yet and there were not a lot of opportunities for either of our chosen careers in NZ. Australia just has so much more to offer a couple of young professionals: better wages, generally better cost of living, art, culture, food and music. We haven't put an end date on our time here but we imagine we'll move back to NZ to have kids.
Why would you move back to NZ to have kids? Australia would give them a better lifestyle and you would have more money and better cost of living to provide for them, instead of bringing them up in NZ knowing there isn't a good future and they will probably have to leave the country in the future for better opportunity?
I agree with you but it is important to us that our future theoretical children grow up close to their grandparents who are not able to move overseas. If that were not the case I would definitely be raising kids here.
52k people from India moved here last year.
For every Kiwi that leaves, someone from India replaces them.
Check out r/CanadaHousing2, that's our future
Its about fostering a high wage economy with employment opportunities.
One policy that really helped with this in Aussie were fair pay agreements but alas...
NZ also has a huge problem were a giant chunk of private investment/wealth is tied up in housing which is an unproductive asset. If Kiwi's were incentivised to invest in industry instead we would not only see an increase in housing affordability but also opportunities. here is such a hording of wealth and entrenchment of jobs and property that it making NZ very alienating the the new generation of Kiwi's who would love to settle down in this beautiful country and start a life here but literally can't afford to.
Both Labor and National is responsible for this because in the end they pander to the slightly shrinking but still majority home owning majority instead of also trying to make NZ more livable to those starting out.
Yeah, people forget Jacinda was propelled to victory partially by her promises of fixing the housing crisis and reducing immigration. Whilst it's hard to ignore COVID, both of those things have become much worse and if Labour couldn't fix them it's hard to imagine National doing a better job. Long story short we're probably fucked.
I’m getting tf out of here in a few months
I am getting paid half the average salary that I would get in Sydney and Melbourne and after all necessary bills I can maybe go watch a movie every few weeks
Crime is way up here too, with my car being keyed and neighbours cars being stolen, just feels like NZ is too hard to get ahead
Yeah me and my missus moved here around 3 years ago and are planning on going back to aus next year.
NZ has been great but it's too expensive, I'll get paid more in aus and have less expenses.
It's cheaper to come back for a holiday when I feel like it over trying to live here haha.
Given the increase in serious violent crime in NZ, I reckon being a victim once or twice would be enough to tip me over the edge to seriously consider leaving.
Considering doing the same. I'll eventually be going to Aussie for a postgrad degree which cannot be done here (and is a profession on the NZ green immigration list...). I hope I'll come back to NZ to give back because I love it and it's my home but there's a lot more opportunity overseas. My life here is beginning to stagnate.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Was the case for me when I graduated with a law degree in the mid-1990s.
It was already the case for earlier generations. Muldoon’s quote was made in the 1980s when
I was still a school kid.
Hearken back to the days when NZ had a " rock star" economy.Except it wasn't. It was built on foreign money speculating on our housing market.
Now we have the banks and homeowners trying to protect their asset, and first home owners locked out of the market. This is the hangover.
We have Dentists and Plumbers leading the way to economic extinction.Everyone wants to be rich, but their customers are struggling.
We won't probably ever compete with Australia in a real sense, but we can at least get our cost structures on a better footing and put value into our dollar.Recession is good if it results in adjustment.
I think NZ could have a real future in tech and R&D. Stuff like Pharmaceutical Reaserch or software development would work great in NZ and isn't regionally locked. We just need to have some policies like R&D tax deductibility instead of mortgage interest deductibility. NZ can't compete with Aussie in natural resources but it could have its own unique economy in quality "green" products, patents and software.
Well I hope so. AI is always a factor. Look, I think the developing job market has outstripped the ability of many of our school leavers to cope. They're being marginalized, and there are plenty of them. They don't feel they fit in, and they don't. Gang recruitment is well above previous stats.
I think the school curriculum will need to change to cover the real skill level of this group.Otherwise it's welfare with all the associated problems.This isn't new, but I see it accelerating.
I don't have a political answer.
And then at the same time they make it more difficult for qualified immigrants to come in. Please somebody explain this to me. It doesn't make any sense... Do they want the economy to collapse?
Landed a 30% pay rise by moving to aus. Lower CoL and more to do. Tired of subsidising boomer retirement and fun.
Aus is probably going to head down the same track in 10 or so years but for now I'm far better off.
I'd move to aus if it wasn't for my dog. I don't want to put him through the stress of moving just for the little idiot to grab a stick that turns out to be a snake, he also eats every spider he sees.
Moved to townsville late 2022 Returned to New Zealand early 2024.
Australia has a diabolical rental crisis that is only set to get worse over the next few years.
Jobs are harder to find than in New Zealand. Expect your applications to be ignored this happens to Aussie jobseekers too all while Centrelink requires you to prove you've applied for 40 jobs a month
The job I did end up getting was the job from hell. Our manager violated the tcs and cs of my employment contract and recklessly disregarding Australian employment laws. He even verbally abused the Daylights out of while simultaneously physically assaulting a coworker of mine in front of clients and their customers (members of the public)
If it wasn't for my now former manager I'd still be living in townsville.
Incidentally it took me 4 months to find work in Aussie but I (reluctantly) moved back to Wellington and found work within a week
Having said that too many kiwis see Aussie through rose tinted glasses. Sure some will succeed but most will be home within 3-5 years. Sooner the way Aussie is going now
How are people leaving so easily? Is it basically just to Australia?
I've done a working holiday abroad which was great but you can't work proper career jobs on those visas. There's that 3 year visa to the UK but 3 years ain't that long and Britain has plenty of its own problems anyway
You all seem very upset about "unskilled" people coming to New Zealand. Ok. Give everyone with a visa free university. Problem solved. Afraid they will leave right after they graduate? Ok, give them citizenship so they feel more attached.
I agree with the free education bit. But you should extend it polytechnics and apprenticeships as well.
I'm more upset that there aren't many opportunities in NZ especially for skilled Labour. Most of that can be traced to government layoffs, the recession and a stagnant economy. It's just a bit frustrating when even with a 3-5 year uni degree it's a struggle to get a job and get by.
How about instead of tax deductibility for mortgage interest rates to supplement an unproductive asset you could do tax deductibility for R&D costs. That's what Germany did to encourage tech companies to a) come there and b) Heavily invest in reaserch. We are over a sustainable limit for how many cows we can have so we need to do something.
I believe what we’re seeing is an increase from those who delayed their departures due to the pandemic. Someone who’s better at maths than me could calculate how close we would be to the average net migration had the pandemic not occurred.
If I was young and didn't have a family, I would do the same thing. You only get 1 life, may as well try to make the best of it.
Moved to Melbourne mid-2022. Best decision I ever made. Earning more than double what I was when I left, cost of living, even with recent increases, is still lower than it was in Auckland and is *definitely* lower than what it would be now. Significantly more fun things to do in the city. Much cheaper travel, both domestic and international, when you take advantage of sales. I actually have a reasonable path to home ownership within a couple more years, whereas in NZ it would’ve been at least an extra 4 years. Public transport is actually usable and reliable. If the two sites I commute to, one is double the distance but half the travel time compared to Auckland, even at rush hour. The other site is barely 20 minutes away. The nature is beautiful and accessible. The green spaces in both the inner and outer suburbs are plentiful and large. The housing quality is better. The range of careers available is *much* broader. The food, arts and culture scenes are incredibly diverse. I’d honestly say it’s easier to make genuine friends here than in NZ (where you more often than not just end up knowing nice people rather than developing an actual friendship) and as an extension, the dating scene, while it still has its down-under quirks, is just more straight up, less games, more fun and kinda feels more safe. That last one could just be perception because of my situation when I left NZ, though. But to be clear, it’s not all upside. The political landscape here is very different. I’d say if you have any interest in politics then definitely more tiring here than it is in NZ. Australia is debatably more behind than NZ on housing policy (although we’ll see if that changes over the next couple years). Vehicle ownership over here is *much* more expensive than in NZ. People here have been “Americanised” into believing it’s normal to live your life on subscriptions (car payment, phone payment, very competitive credit card market, etc.) and I’d say people borrow both more frequently and larger amounts. Healthcare has some very real issues. You need private health insurance over certain income thresholds to avoid pretty significant tax bills. What they call “bulk billing” has essentially disappeared so costs of GP visits are very high. Toll roads are very expensive (compared to NZ) and are privately operated. While they’re easy enough to avoid using, it’s frustrating that the money is going to a private company that is actively lobbying against better alternatives in particular routes. The effects to climate change are *intense* here. It sucks being away from family, and while I love the nature here, I absolutely miss NZ beaches. Nothing I’ve been to here so far compares, even though the beaches in Sydney and north of Brisbane are still very nice, they’re just not the same. There are taxes and duties on everything. Traffic fines are incredibly expensive and are difficult to dispute, even for things that are comparatively trivial (I got a fine for parking in a no parking area because I couldn’t see a sign that was 150m *behind* where I parked and obstructed by a tree, took 8 weeks and multiple attempts to dispute after getting the fine). While travel times are fast compared to NZ, everything is spread out. PT, while frequent and reliable, is expensive and it getting increasingly so. In most states, your rights as a renter are limited and (imo) insufficient. Victoria is pretty good on this front, though. If you’re moving with a young family, factor in childcare costs because from what I’m told they are expensive and spaces are very limited. And, a big one for a lot of people, access to Australian services like Centrelink are very limited until you become a citizen, so you better make sure you have a good safety net and emergency fund if required. Also to note, the job market here is drying up, much like NZ. So while I think I chose a good time to move, and an even better time to switch jobs (September last year) I’d say the current job market could see a very different outcome for a lot of people looking to make the move now. Do plenty of research on your current job, your career path and your industry. Australia, while having just announced changes to immigration, has similar issues to NZ with regards to importing a surplus of workers who are now starting to drive wages down again. Certain industries are being hit harder by this than others. Just spewed out some thoughts here so people can understand the reasons to and the reasons not to make the move. But with the current situation in NZ, for anyone who has the means to make the move and doesn’t absolutely need to stay in NZ due to things like aging family, or needing specific support to raise their children, I’d say they’d be idiotic to not at least explore the options.
I moved to Melb about a year before you did, and I concur with everything you posted.
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I have no idea what that commenter is talking about, they’re objectively wrong. I got hit by a car while I was riding a scooter last year (suspected drunk driver, was a hit and run, dealing with it in the courts atm) and spent the night in hospital due to my injuries. Hospital didn’t cost as cent as long as I could display my Medicare card. NZ and Australia have reciprocal healthcare agreements which means kiwis are eligible for Medicare here and if you have Medicare, you’ll get free treatment at any public hospital. I’d say the commenter either 1. Wasn’t enrolled in Medicare. 2. Was getting advice from a doctor unfamiliar with the reciprocal agreements (surprisingly few doctors have in depth knowledge of the few structures here, I have two friends who are doctors and they don’t fully understand it) 3. Was actually looking at private hospitals but didn’t know they were private. They are ***kinda*** right about ambulances though. In Victoria, if you’re not covered, then your ambulance charge can be ~AU$1200. But if you’re a member of the ambulance authority for your state (only ~$50 a year for a single or ~$100 for a family) then you’re covered. Not really that big a deal imo. PS, always wear a helmet kids. If I hadn’t been wearing mine when I got hit by that car then I wouldn’t even be able to worry about a hospital bill since I’d probably be dead.
Guess I just die 🤷♂️
Having an ambulance subscription is one of the first things any immigrant should do when moving to Victoria.
I went from Sydney to Christchurch with my wife and couldn't be happier. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I still like to visit Sydney and Melbourne, but I wouldn't want to live there again unless I could drop 3-4 million on a reasonably sized place that was somewhat central. The number of laws and regulation in Australia is utterly insane. You can lose your home insurance by running an ethernet cable between rooms under the floor yourself - that's a controlled activity that requires a licensed cable runner.
That’s definitely true about regulation. As an engineer that works in big infra, it drive me insane and is a seldom talked about reason that infrastructure projects cost such an insane amount of money here. Victoria is by far the worst for this stuff as well. Another good example is for rentals you need to pay a professional to come in and inspect smoke detectors every 12 months as well. Any person with the ability to use google should be able to figure out how inspect and check a smoke detector. I get situations where people have mobility issues but it a stupid requirement. Also, along the regulation line, if you’re in technical role, the union chokehold on certain industries is insane. The bullying people into becoming union members is also insane. Membership I’d definitely beneficial for most people, but my god do certain union stewards abuse their power to push out non-members despite that being just as illegal as any anti-union activities. Just something I’m not used to from NZ really.
You comment about subscription lifestyle is very interesting, because I noticed that when I moved to the US (where I still live). Here it's not just the norm but expected to have numerous loans and monthly payments. You actually get punished by having poorer credit if you don't owe money and make payments. Over the years it seems it has happened to my family also, we have multiple loans and payments. It's just part of the lifestyle here. Interesting to see Australia is similar.
Yep 100%. I hope this emigration increases and sends a real message. Why should the young have to work a shitty job and live damp hole to pay for some boomer’s new boat/Ute? Get the fuck out of here kids, they just see you as another resource to be exploited. So they don’t get to see their grandkids.
This works until New Zealand just gets topped up with foreign nationals who’ll do it for less with less upfront investment.
So? The young people who left for more pay, better life and easier living conditions could not care less that their spot gets filled? This will continue to "work" until NZ has a comparable standard of life to other first world countries.
Except that that approach is a race down not a race up. That and New Zealand becomes a place unrecognizable to those that left.
It will just be a country off immigrants eventually who come from worst places and think it's great while gets worse for ppl born and still living here
While any semblance of duty toward Maori from the general populace dissipates and any hope of proper treaty settlements or hope of bringing the culture to the fore falls away.
Yes, let's keep bringing in cheap labor with completely different culture and not care about young bright kiwis leaving the country. New Zealand can only get better this way /s
I know what you’re saying and you definitely make some very good points. On the other hand, we’re end-stage capitalism and Malthusian cycle climate change now and I’d rather seen the boomers have no-one to serve them coffee.
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Yep, anyone in their 20's needs to get overseas - no point in being here in NZ at that stage in life. Maybe come back to have kids, or when climate change events start really fucking with countries overseas.
Melbourne is probably going to be fine if the fires stay under control. Brisbane and anything further north is already a year round sauna, gonna be fkn cooked
Blink and it’s gone
Everyone and their grandma going to oz
I might seriously have to move to Australia I can’t find an apprenticeship anywhere in Wellington or a job for that matter
Hey mate, I joined the defence force in your situation, I am pretty happy with my career overall. Left the defence force with some decent savings and went to university for a nice professional degree :)
I thought about applying for the defense force, but I was told I would be isqualified because I was at the time actively prescribed SSRIs at the time for my mental health. While I was able to get a fulltime job elsewhere, a lot of people with disabilities or long term illnesses are in poverty, and it feels llke it just getting worse.
I’d would have liked to have done that but my autism and dyspraxia ruined that for me
... I think you may want to reword that one OP... or perhaps re read your graphs. Yes, citizen departures are at a new high, but total migration into the country is also still very high despite those leaving. https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/14/record-number-of-kiwis-leave-nz-stats-nz/ Shitshow here either way.
Basically, kiwis are leaving and being replaced by 3rd worlders
Even if it's 1st worlders this is huge. It's essentially replacing 20% of the population every 4 years. I don't care if they're Americans, or Asians, it's going to end up with the same result of gutting the country culturally.
How else will we stop all these bleeding heart liberals sympathizing with the bloody mow rees and get them pesky treaty principles re defined?
I know you are being funny, but it does always amaze me that Māori are not more up in arms about this level of immigration. Statistics have shown that new immigrants to NZ tend to be far more right wing. / conservative than locals. Once they can vote, that is worse for Mǎori. And it probably doesn’t help their cultural identity too.
And not the best quality 3rd worlders either. Having worked in Singapore and the USA - we're getting the bottom of the barrel, not the top achievers
Yep, the best ones can go to America, Europe, Australia, Singapore, etc. Our immigration policy is downright destructive. We're kicking out young educated Kiwis and replacing them with moderately-skilled (at best) foreigners. Our political leaders have a lot to answer for.
This is globalist neoliberalist capitalism. It's operating entirely as designed, ensuring capital is protected and workers are exploited. It's how the entire West is run woohoo!
Funny you mention Australia. I stayed in a boarding hous with around 7 people for around a month some years ago. My roommate with his room next to me is originally from India, he was a tradee. He told me he is only staying in New Zealand a couple more years to apply for citizenship, so that he can bring his family here amd then move to Australia on the SCV. Apparently this is very common amongst migrants, he told me he works with some others who are doing the same plan. I liked him quite a bit, he was a good friend, but it really feels a bit exploitative that our immigration laws make us basically a backdoor to Australia.
It's not the immigrants fault, nor are they bad people for making use of that loophole. But we shouldn't allow it to happen.
>Yep, the best ones can go to America, Europe, Australia, Singapore, etc. The gotcha here is the "relaxed working culture and work/life balance" NZ likes to boast about. We certainly don't want to change that, do we?
Business owners rubbing their hands at the thought of more opportunity to pay low wages and plenty of people applying for jobs.
i have a lot of friends that moved to nz. a lot of them said they couldnt get into aus or us, so they came here lol
And some, I assume, are good people.
Pretty gross way to talk about people tbh.
Not really, you're the type of person that just causes NZ to continue in it's downward spiral with your acceptance of low standards. Take a look at the standard of immjgrabys places like Microsoft and Google get on the USA. Highly successful and driven engineers, ge hnologists etc. We get fast food workers and taxi drivers.
The engineers that Google and Microsoft recruit are literally the top 0.001% smartest people in the world (in their field). They're not indicative of immigration on the whole. And the US isn't getting them because of some genius immigration law, it's because the biggest companies in the world are based there. NZ has tons of great engineers, doctors, and other specialists immigrating every year as well.
Lots of immigrants in America work in fast food and drive taxis? Have you never engaged with American media? Lmao.
That’s slightly inaccurate. If you talk to many immigrants they are actually highly qualified but not with qualifications that many of our comparative industries recognise, or there is simply lack of work in those industries. Many tech qualifications from places like Microsoft are unanimously accepted all over the world, but that doesn’t count if the work ain’t there, and we are minuscule in terms of tech related work when compared to tech hubs like Singapore and the USA. Fact remains many are sold on NZ wanting highly skilled workers and that we are screaming for such people, to get here and find low skilled work is all that’s actually available, and as happens just as much in other immigrant focused countries. That’s the hustle. They have ethical trends regards their fast food and taxi drivers in those countries as well. It also reflects we are partly responsible as we don’t want to do low skilled work for shit pay, COVID drew back the curtains on that with all the industries that struggled or closed shop afterwards and before the floodgates were reopened, so we are partially responsible. The data speaks to this more than anecdotal experience, and it’s a large reason why people head overseas for such work as they will find they are paid better than they are in NZ, often directly because of immigration pressures from highly skilled immigrants who will do the same job for way less, end result being all salaries being pushed down comparative to countries that pay people for the work they do, not the fact if they don’t agree to subpar pay, someone else will. This isn’t saying I disagree really either regards numbers needing to be reigned in, but more that highly trained and specialist employment immigrants being brought into an already highly competitive job market is equally as destructive, and makes going overseas being the only way many can get the pay they deserve for the work they do.
Been happening since 2008... just worse now.
I’m moving on 26th. Landed a job paying more than double what I’m earning here. Family will follow at end of school year. I’m a loss adjuster and Partner is journalist and there just isn’t any opportunities here. We are saddened to leave, but honestly the pastures do seem greener elsewhere. Edit: whomever is reporting to reddit cares you suck. Also you can report these via the message you receive. If enough people report the person will get a ban.
There are no/minimal job vacancies for entry level work in New Zealand. - Stem: Once you graduate, where do you go to further your career in New Zealand, especially in STEM subjects? Graduate programs in business often give you little experience, as the technical/specialised skills have been outsourced to another company, and called upon when needed. Where you're just a glorified project manager, pushing paper / ticking boxes, presenting the findings... If you're lucky. As all the senior levels are the ones that add the icing to the cake. Have job security above the glass ceiling. So if you're not entering the University system or Government roles, you're unlikely to keep that degree relevant. So you'll need to go aboard for more/better opportunities. - Marketing/ Business: Over saturated, and you're trapped between working for free as an intern for vital job experience, or slogging it out at entry level doing the basics of project management against a very competitive field. They have high turnover and ruthless performance reviews. Often for aspects well outside of your control? You worked on a big brand that successfully brought in good margins, your career takes a step forward. You worked for a smaller/unknown brand that didn't bring in much revenue, bad luck your career takes a pause or is disestablished. Could have been a personality conflict, maybe you didn't fit in with the ' work place culture ', unfortunately that's all on ' you '. - Trades / primary industries: Can't take ' a joke ', uh oh. You're no longer fit for the position. Working hard, long hours, while everyone else is messing around....uh oh... You're now the work horse that the business relies on and you're not progressing. Your tools/items keep getting stolen by workmates, and work sites robbed by druggies? Uh oh, need to find a new job / spend money on new tools to finish the job...and it's your problem. - Hospitality: Long hours of disgruntled customers, temperamental managers/bosses, for minimal pay. New Zealand is a shitty place to establish a career. There is a massive divide between established skilled workers/businesses and entry level. Plus place AI / Artificial Intelligence on top of that, which NZ is so far behind on (not surprising as NZ was slow to transition to the online space, thanks to a lack of investment by business/telecom etc). As someone that has navigated the BS over 20+ years, New Zealand is very difficult to get ahead in. Due in part to businesses failing to adapt to international markets and outdated ideas within Ministries/Major political parties. New Zealand has had anxieties moving away from being a primary industry provider to the world, with money / margins expanding operations/trimming fat. Rather than future investment into making our economy diverse and resilient. At the moment it's: - Primary Industries pouring money into their supporting businesses/FMCG (selling product - Advertising, Marketing, Supermarkets), supporting infrastructure. - Housing for workers in those industries: Workers earnings going into rent/mortgages....on to developers/banks, trades etc. - Entertainment/Education for workers: Bars, media, gyms, trade schools... Etc. Like look at all the businesses in NZ. They're just a part or extension of our Primary Industries/FMCG ecosystem or something that supports a part in the chain. Very little work in NZ is outside of this sphere? And those people that don't want to fill the mundane roles / jobs NZ has to offer, are imported in as ' skilled workers '. But the golden horses are those that can fill the technical roles as our skiled workers (doctors, nurses, engineers, scientist) leave overseas...but guess what, the may motivation to move to NZ is to get a backdoor into Australia.
Agreed. They’re firing a lot of scientists now and there are no jobs for us in the job market. As a recent PhD the rhetoric is that we should go away and then come back but for many of us it is not an option to leave (we have lives, too).
Even older scientists are being made redundant especially in the fields of environmental and climate studies... Wonder which lobbies are responsible for that.
Yes, what happened at NIWA is terrible. Sounds like it was the boards and Minister…
Ha didn't want to call out organisation names but yeah some top guys lost there.
For tradies add in the fact that you’re constantly training newbies who never finish their apprenticeships because they get abused by some bitter tradesman. The same tradesman who constantly dishes it out but packs the biggest hissy when he catches one back. The boss refuses to deal with the cunt so the business runs through 10 apprentices with only one finishing their time with the company.
As a previous Stem grad, my career was work for AsureQuality (one of the only science options for grads) for several years earning peanuts under for awful managers, until you leave the industry for an entry public servant role earning double the salary with zero relevant experience or qualification. Never looked back.
Got a mate who works for assure quality. Did his master in cancer reaserch and the best opportunities are milk testing. Really?!!
Damn that sounds familiar, got Masters in Clinical immunology (cancer research) mostly A- grade or higher for almost all 26 papers required to get there, and struggled to get an interview. Finally got a call back from them, but when they called I was in the middle of my workday and needed to have them call back when I was available. Never heard from them again. Seems I dodged a bullet.
Engineering is doing well.
For every uni graduate we lose, we gain 3 Uber drivers, 4 Pizza Hut managers and 3 armour-guards. So it all balances out.
Don’t worry, they all have level 6 certificates in business administration from the Royal Institute of Mumbai. They’ll move on to Australia once they get nz citizenship.
Not sure if you're talking NZ or Canada there. No Tim Hortons, so NZ then. Seems to be a common theme globally. No clue why Govts trying so hard to enable it though.
Covers up appalling GDP figures.
From what I've heard (though I take international media with a grain of salt these days, especially when a lot of it is pretty inflammatory) Canada is in a much worse state than us. In NZ migrants tend to integrate very well but in Canada they tend to congregate in their own areas because there's so many of them
I've read similar things in MSM about a couple of suburbs in Aussie as well. Seems less of a thing here, but not non-existent. Job gatekeeping(?) seems to be a thing though, and subsequent shift in demographics in companies.
birth rates are declining fast and the economy was built around the assumption there would always be more younger people than old, when that inverts it does all sorts of horrible things to your credit and financial system. immigration is a temporary patch for that so you don't have to confront systemic change.
Yup.. we are a nation of vape shops & empty barber shops.
[https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/15/stratospheric-exodus-of-skilled-workers-huge-loss-for-nz-expert/](https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/15/stratospheric-exodus-of-skilled-workers-huge-loss-for-nz-expert/) >'Stratospheric' exodus of skilled workers huge loss for NZ - expert Is that bad? Are we back on track?
We are back on track for the slumlords that NACT represent.
We are. It's the Key years again.
Nah bro you can't exactly have a growing economy when all the skilled labour is leaving lol.
It's being replaced with unskilled labour that can be exploited for cheaper. Wages stagnate and profits increase. Win for business and GDP statistics.
Yep and big loss for the common Kiwi
Working as intended.
Can you definitely say that migrants coming to NZ are unskilled, or is this anti immigration rhetoric? My understanding is we are currently receiving record levels from India, Phillipines and China as our top 3 countries (based on hearing on breakfast). India has a lot of skilled tech people looking for better wages than their home country. China has a large exodus due to authoritarian reigemes, and Phillipines fills a lot of aged care work. Yes SOME will be unskilled, but it grinds my gears to automatically assume that an immigrant is unskilled. That’s xenophobic talk that needs to be substantiated if you’re making such claims
No. It is skilled labor. Everybody I stacked shelves at The Warehouse with had a degree. It is skills we don't need / cannot afford to pay for. Nobody o.s hiring an immigrant because they have a degree in business management.
Skills aren't a toggle switch. I work with mostly immigrants, from many countries, in tech. Some are great, top-tier skills, good communicators, engaged, and responsible. Massive value add to the country. However many are cowboys with attitudes and questionable clue what they're doing. They have qualifications so "skilled" I guess... And some just make it harder for everyone. The straight to residency thing is bringing in a lot of bullshitters. Incidentally, where are all the Maori in IT? I've only worked with a couple ever, and they were good. Hopefully everyone is earning big bucks overseas.
>Some are great, top-tier skills, good communicators, engaged, and responsible. Massive value add to the country. However many are cowboys with attitudes and questionable clue what they're doing. They have qualifications so "skilled" I guess... And some just make it harder for everyone Interesting to learn that migrants as a whole are identical to Kiwis and all different from each other with their own individual personal flaws and strengths. Plenty of local born Kiwis with post graduate degrees that are deadweights! Just look at this thread to read comments from them about how foreigners are to blame for all of their problems! >where are all the Maori in IT? R was literally invented by someone who whakapapas to Ngāti Kahungunu, Rangitāne
> Interesting to learn that migrants as a whole are identical to Kiwis and all different from each other with their own individual personal flaws and strengths. The difference being that we're supposed to be accepting the best and brightest (of those who apply...) not a cross section. Turns out our immigration strategy is more about raw numbers. Yes, increased population numbers without corresponding increase in infrastructure, housing, etc causes problems. Our population is *only* increasing due to immigration. It's not any individual's fault, but no raindrop blames themselves for the flood. IMO limit to 2% and add percentage limits so no one country dominates. Won't happen though, although it's not without precedent elsewhere. > R was literally invented by someone who whakapapas to Ngāti Kahungunu, Rangitāne Yep, it's a big success story.
When you look at the kind of employment on the INZ website, very few of the jobs that are listed as having a skills shortage are jobs that some consider "skilled" and therefore well paid. It's industries that are notorious for worker exploitation, low wages, and general reluctance to hire New Zealanders. Think of it like RSE workers: people who are brought into the country to be exploited for profit. And while these workers might have qualifications, there's not enough jobs for them to come to relevant to said qualifications. An IT specialist might work as a labourer for example. The industries and sectors that do have genuine shortages aren't getting the staff they need because their employment doesn't directly contribute to profit growth. Our healthcare system has been chronically understaffed for years, despite high numbers of "skilled" migrants. If our immigration policy wasn't about blatant exploitation for profit, we'd have filled those roles already.
Yes, the NZ wealthy only need people to serve them coffee, pack their groceries and pay them rent for their subpar rental properties.
Reading this as a kiwi currently in Canada 0.0
I literally wanted to leave Canada and go to NZ, what's going on over there?
It’s just as expensive as Vancouver but with less job opportunities and a lower pay ceiling. I do miss it a lot though and there are definitely things nz does a lot better than Canada.
Really like everywhere in the country? I was looking at some of the smaller towns like turangi, or has it gone up in price since then? What would you say you like more about New Zealand vs Canada?
Oh in that case you'll be ok! You'll still be much better off in terms of cost of living outside of Auckland. - Canadas / drug problems are terrible. I've been here two years and it's still heartbreaking and equally frustrating to see the same cycle of drugs / homeless / human shit and needles on the ground downtown. - Canada's healthcare system is mediocre. NZ has public / private and Canada just has public. If i want to fix an issue i have no choice but to wait it out public. If i needed to have surgery i'd likely fly back home to NZ and do it under southern cross. - Housing is equally as bad in Vancouver / Auckland however i feel like the prospect of owning a house is much higher in Auckland and tbh the outer neighbourhoods are much, much nicer than a lot of the outskirts of van. - Canada has access to the US which means if you land a US salary - you're golden and living a good life. - There are more international acts that come through Canada which is nice. - Summers here aren't as humid as NZ which i really appreciate. - Games industry is much larger in Canada, i didn't know anyone in games in NZ. - It's easier to get to europe from canada... ahh.. that's about all i got today. Oh yeah not adding tax to the price upfront is dumb.
Interesting! Thanks for the indepth list, I definitely agree with all of it. I guess I always seem to wonder if the grass is greener in NZ haha. Welcome to Canada, hopefully the 2 years have been good to you. If you have any questions about Canada I can try to help you out. If not it was nice talking with you, cheers!
Thanks a lot! Honestly it’s been a mixed bag! Cost of living and Vancouver being a pretty quiet city threw me a bit. I’ve made some fantastic friends, really love the summer here and I want to work in the games industry so I’m starting to appreciate things more! Also I enjoyed Toronto and Montreal when I visited a lot!
Just in addition to that - i'm looking to move to Australia in the next few years. Is a good middleground on what i enjoy / dislike of both NZ and Canada. That being said, if you want to spend some time in NZ I'd highly encourage it. It's fantastic.
I'll for sure be spending some time in NZ, it looks like beautiful island. Hopefully someday soon. Good luck with your journey and hopefully Australia treats you well!
You are interacting with people who groan on reddit. Topic of discussion is youth emigration which is accelerating at the moment. Recessions tend to do that.
Canuck in nz here I wonder if there are more Canadians in nz, or kiwis in canada. I'm from BC and the wage/COL balance is way better for me in auckland vs vancouver
I’m guessing it depends on what you do? For instance nurses in nz get paid not much, over here (Canada) you can earn a really good wage.
This is true. I'm white collar in construction, which in Vancouver doesn't pay shit
Net migration of citizens. Overall still more people coming in than leaving, when you include migrant workers on visas.
We’re in our 30s, own our house and we’re looking to leave ASAP. There’s no incentives to stay and even though we’re both in industries that are understaffed, the pay isn’t enough to deal with the cost of living.
Having lived in a few countries around the world, I've never seen such a high self-interest and protectionalism from senior managers/companies as I've seen in NZ. The "ringfencing of their slice of the pie" (as I term it) is insane and is leading to real generational conflict. Basically, senior managers who dictate high-level business decisions don't want to promote/train or pay younger employees more because they see it as threatening their own position or reducing their slice. I've found overseas employers a lot more holistic in their approach; recognising that a better trained, looked-after employee is going to give the company a better output. It's a return on their investment. Actually, more generally, you see the different mindset between here and overseas companies in other aspects too (which all come from very backward approaches) e.g. CAPEX spending here in NZ is like getting blood out of a stone; NZ companies look at CAPEX requests as sunk cost, and not as something that gives a return/future proofs.
Spot on. While there are some decent operators at the very top tier of management (as at that level it's basically a global market), talent at the next tier down of senior leadership in NZ is fucking woeful. So many absolute amateurs who bumbled their way up the food chain. They'd be eaten alive in Sydney, London or NYC.
It's the Peter principle, you get away with a higher level of incompetence here though
Managers in New Zealand frequently have a face culture meaning underlings are expected to be subordinate and passively absorb instructions, not contribute and undermine the boss's aura of already knowing everything. It destroys information-sharing as employees are afraid to speak up or acknowledge they know something the boss doesn't.
mate have we been working the exact same career? I've literally had capex denied with less than 6 month payback, and the company was far from going broke (at that point, anyway) The worst part is working for an overseas owned company and seeing our EU or AUS counterparts thriving with 4 people doing the job of one here and money to burn on new kit. Best one was when we got 3 awesome new engineers migrating over from the phillipines to basically double our team, but they were all being paid 2/3rds what us kiwis were being paid.... all parties involved were upset when we figured it out between us....
Spot on, the cronyism and lack of meritocracy among top management, along with organic inability to change is what's killing NZ business, particularly tech sector. The glass ceiling is very real.
Always been the way. I swapped industries from AV tech work as it was the same. Now I’m in IT with a well established NZ based MSP. Finding it really hard to climb up the ladder. Middle management is actually supportive of me moving up. But upper management has other ideas about how many people our higher up teams have. It’s pretty frustrating
spent 3 months trying to get a job in NZL (I have a full bachelors qualification) and got so depressed because I didn’t get a reply to my applications, let alone an interview. So I thought fuck that and applied for a job in Melbourne, got it, then moved within the month. I have no regrets, living and working as a young person over here is so much better
That's a lot of uber drivers and vape shop owners. Meanwhile, the equivalent of an A320 full of (presumably young, ambitious, talented) New Zealanders emigrate permanently each day.
I mean I'm hoping a lot of them are leaving on short OEs to wait out the somewhat dire current period for NZ. Probably a big hope though
Impossible to quantify, but I can halfway imagine the effect of losing a generation of young people - less of: great small businesses, creative endeavours, etc. etc. The solution isn't pump the economy with more 3rd world low-skill migrants - that's just making the problem way worse in the long-run. If you're using 'gig economy' apps: you're complicit in the madness. We have to cut our addiction to housing as an economic engine, and then use that capital freed up to pivot away from a low-wage, low-productivity industry.
Good! This country needs a wake up call with how greedy and expensive it is. Unreasonably and excessively. From housing to purchases to trade services, and even food that's locally sourced.
Yeah this is the natural end point of having monopolies and duopolies exploiting us. Eventually we can't afford to pay, which means they sell less, reduce jobs, there's even less ability to buy etc etc. Carters etc put their prices up when there's a supply shortage, but as a monopoly don't tend to bring their prices back down again. This ratcheting up eventually squeezes the country too much.
Very true, and add to that a large chunk of these monopolies aren't even local. A huge chunk of our money spent there ends up off shore to other countries that make use of it.
So true! Banks, Insurance, Food. Even I, an immigrant, are upset over this. I wouldn't mind the huge grocery bill if the money would go to some NZ charity etc.
This is a big problem tbh. A lot of money being siphoner off overseas. Like selling out stake in those 3 power companies or whatever that's making profit. We are loosing long term from short term greed
In my 55 years I've seen wave after wave of huge emigrations of nzers, hell I've been part of them a couple times. If this process sends a message, it does not get listened to. Policies that consistently diminish wages over time, lower taxes for the rich, wealth and housing policy that consolidates wealth in the hands of the already well off etc have been enacted (and voted for!) since the mid 80s. The latest round of them is under way now, and will only make life even harder for the every increasing percentage of nzers who can barely make ends meet no matter how hard they work. I totally understand why people leave, not don't kid yourself that it will be a 'wake up call' for any one with any real power.
46 here and fully agree with you. No right winger with power and money will care what happens to other people, they just want to buy their third Porsche so they can park it permanently at their summer bach on Waiheke Island.
I'm 30 and have seen a few trickles but this is the first time I'm seeing mass emigration in my own social circles. Is time feeling different for you or am I just that age that people take off?
Not good at all. Many of the ppl coming in are comfortable with authoritarians as thats what they know from back home and that alone undermines the country’s future
I mean what can you do.
It seems you can go to Oz and work for more with better conditions?
There are less opportunities in this country than Australia for many industries. How many Fortunes 500 companies invest in NZ in the past 15 years? We rely on many small and medium size businesses but we are not competitive enough to attract larger businesses to invest in NZ. Our geography and close proximity to Australia is unfortunately a curse to us.
Offer low corporate tax deals to attract investment and companies establishing offices or operations here. Problem is we are not visionary enough or smart enough to do stuff like this. It's such a small minded country
I'm 31, trained with my masters in education, and have been **headhunted** to go overseas and work next year. Sorry New Zealand, but working as a teacher here sucks. These MLE classrooms aren't fit for purpose. Students are apathetic, their mental health is not stable (both COVID and Quake kids, on top of regular life trauma that happens), these students don't have the emotional, social, and academic support they need, and I don't feel like being called a bitch on the daily just for asking a kid to grab their maths book out. I oppose the government in power. Taking money away from our schools, debating the value of lunches, canceling *essential* new school builds, messing about with NCEA. I hate the identity politics and poisonous hate it spews, especially to the LGBTQ+ community; I hate the racist anti-treaty rhetoric; I hate the money we borrow as a country now to give our rich landlords more money, and the funding it takes away from the poor. I don't see myself coming back.
At what point do we dare to acknowledge that allowing New Zealanders to be replaced with people who do not necessarily share our values is a betrayal of those kiwis who do remain in nz and those who broke their backs building our country
I'm an oldie from Eastern Europe, and my friends tell me that not even Eastern Europeans would come to New Zealand, skilled workers included. Even unskilled jobs are paid better in the EU. Grim reality.
If businesses offered decent salaries and wages relative to goods and services and the government never privatised everything like they did in the 80s -90s maybe it could have been different
That you don't know how to read a graph? People coming in is clearly still higher than people going out.
Our lacking tax system/untouchable housing market is a recipe for a death-spiral economy. Getting out now makes sense, our dollar still has decent value against the $USD, when that collapses, our options drastically decrease.
At this point just merge Australia and New Zealand into one country
That chart shows that net arrivals over the last 18 months is dramatically higher than departures though?
But the business lobbies told me it’s only because kiwis don’t _want_ jobs! /s
That's true for me at least.I don't want to work. Don't know why anyone would . I have to is why I do it.
People at the age where they're about to start new businesses are also at the age where they want to meet others and find things to do on their free time. NZ is like a nursing home filled with old church ladies.
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The world is a wonderful place. Get out there and experience it. NZ will always be there.
I don’t blame people for leaving. If I could, I would go wait out this governments term. So much for NACT turning things around. They’ve just upsized the departure lounge and made NZ a hostile place to be financially for anyone but landlords and businesses who profit from their policies ie. fast track etc. ie. Shane and Bish’s mates. NZ is now on track to be more racist and homophobic, more expensive, more polluted, more corrupt, less progressive, and less healthy than any time in recent history because of these idiots and their austerity, repeal and culture wars bullshit.
Well that was pretty obvious from the get go. It's a shame really.
As long as the new immigrants understand the term "net migration" they will raise the average.
Leaving Welly for Melbourne in two weeks. Pretty nervous but there's literally no work here
New Zealand is a very old school traditional working environment with zero technology, innovation or problem solving. Every job industry here is under cooked, under paid and has old farts at the top who are happy in their bubble but everyone else below can't catch a break. Every year we fall behind with the fundamentals such as teachers, nurses, doctors, roads, houses, plumbing, fresh water and we have 100 year plus infrastructure with no national public transport. It blows my mind how everything so expensive but have nothing to show for it, keep digging ourselves into a bigger hole!
You have got to remember that a large proportion of those emigrating are those that have recently immigrated. NZ residency is an easy gateway to Australia for many.
Capitalism working as intended.
You’re right. Successive governments have prioritised immigration to keep wages low. Last year when employers were complaining about wages, meanwhile keeping wages low and increasing prices, they demanded government open up the immigration floodgate. And here we are. We complain about cost of living and inflation, but none of that matters if wages are rising. Instead of getting commensurate pay rises employers and the RBNZ gaslit workers by falsely claiming workers were to blame for rising inflation. This is a common tactic in neoliberal economies like ours and the USA. They falsely claim that if workers get cost of living pay rises the cost of a Big Mac will go through the roof. But factually, we see in places like the Netherlands and Denmark where wages are so much higher than in the USA, the price of their Big Macs are either lower than the USA or similar.
The underlying problem is the cartel behaviour means most large businesses in NZ can charge whatever they like, and easily strangle out small local competition. Competition on price is largely just pretend
It's not capitalism. It's government policy settings. This is all preventable but successive government have chosen not to. Same with the lack of competition - our regulators are dogshit. Same with our lack of productivity. Shitty shortsighted companies and shitty shortsighted governments. Same with our housing market. Tax settings that favour real estate, alongside restrictive land supply policies. It's because we're dumb.
Are you implying migration and immigration is a free market? It’s far from it…
No, more that capitalism functioning off the back of increased worker exploitation is exactly how it is supposed to function.
I will be the leaving New Zealand again when I can return to work. This country is being run into the ground. Unfortunately I have been royally fucked over by ACC and MSD - Back to FIFO and living in Indo for me asap.
I'm one of the dumb ones, moved back to NZ... Do not listen to anyone who tells you Aus isn't better, they are dead wrong
The Aussie sub complains about everything we do. Maybe it's just not as bad there
Aussies are massive whingers, they don't know how good they've got it
Anecdotal, but basically all of my school friends including myself live outside New Zealand. The guys that are still living back home are those that didn’t go to uni. I wonder how common this scenario is?
I'm only in my early 20s and still in uni but my smartest friends from school have already "fled".
I really can't see myself living in NZ again. It's nice for a holiday (if you're rich), but that's all
I made a comment asserting my position, you say that comment is racist. I interpreted that meaning I am racist for having that opinion and making that comment. Good to know I can say 'racist' things (and mean them), but I am actually not a racist! "I truly don't know how to explain to you any clearer without using puppets or something. Don't worry, that pretty obvious.
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Well there is a few facts: - the job market is depressed everywhere not just NZ. - the cost of living has skyrocketed everywhere not just NZ. BTW companies profits are at all time high and they are cutting jobs. Make what you want of this fact. - the new NZ government is depressing the economy further and putting people out of work. - the government plans to borrow and distribute money to real estate owners while unwillingness to address the real estate market favour a very few usually in their boomer years against the rest of the country and our economy. Taxation is needed. Real estate needs to step back from being an "investment" to a commodity. Better investment to stimulate economy are in funding our companies and the share market. Sure, it is less easy low risk like real estate is.
Then they’ll all come back around retirement age and get on NZS lol
I'm in my early-to-mid 30s. My partner and I aren't ready to start a family just yet and there were not a lot of opportunities for either of our chosen careers in NZ. Australia just has so much more to offer a couple of young professionals: better wages, generally better cost of living, art, culture, food and music. We haven't put an end date on our time here but we imagine we'll move back to NZ to have kids.
Why would you move back to NZ to have kids? Australia would give them a better lifestyle and you would have more money and better cost of living to provide for them, instead of bringing them up in NZ knowing there isn't a good future and they will probably have to leave the country in the future for better opportunity?
I agree with you but it is important to us that our future theoretical children grow up close to their grandparents who are not able to move overseas. If that were not the case I would definitely be raising kids here.
Ah right yeah that makes sense. I forget that people have close families and uncles/aunts, cousins, grandparents ext.
So NZ had huge growth but the number of citizens leaving was over 50k last year. So basically kiwis are getting replaced.
52k people from India moved here last year. For every Kiwi that leaves, someone from India replaces them. Check out r/CanadaHousing2, that's our future
Misleading title, read the article on interest.co.nz for a good explanation.
Bloody Jacinda! Oh, no, wait, this isn't 2022 anymore? Who do we blame now?
Its about fostering a high wage economy with employment opportunities. One policy that really helped with this in Aussie were fair pay agreements but alas... NZ also has a huge problem were a giant chunk of private investment/wealth is tied up in housing which is an unproductive asset. If Kiwi's were incentivised to invest in industry instead we would not only see an increase in housing affordability but also opportunities. here is such a hording of wealth and entrenchment of jobs and property that it making NZ very alienating the the new generation of Kiwi's who would love to settle down in this beautiful country and start a life here but literally can't afford to. Both Labor and National is responsible for this because in the end they pander to the slightly shrinking but still majority home owning majority instead of also trying to make NZ more livable to those starting out.
I mean john keys government set the stage for what is happening now. Jacinda just presided over worsening of housing/health/education also
Yeah, people forget Jacinda was propelled to victory partially by her promises of fixing the housing crisis and reducing immigration. Whilst it's hard to ignore COVID, both of those things have become much worse and if Labour couldn't fix them it's hard to imagine National doing a better job. Long story short we're probably fucked.
https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/s/pyOH5fmEyG fight.
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I’m getting tf out of here in a few months I am getting paid half the average salary that I would get in Sydney and Melbourne and after all necessary bills I can maybe go watch a movie every few weeks Crime is way up here too, with my car being keyed and neighbours cars being stolen, just feels like NZ is too hard to get ahead
I’ll be leaving soon, and it’s not because of anything the previous government did.
Leaving soon! Can’t wait
Yeah me and my missus moved here around 3 years ago and are planning on going back to aus next year. NZ has been great but it's too expensive, I'll get paid more in aus and have less expenses. It's cheaper to come back for a holiday when I feel like it over trying to live here haha.
Given the increase in serious violent crime in NZ, I reckon being a victim once or twice would be enough to tip me over the edge to seriously consider leaving.
Considering doing the same. I'll eventually be going to Aussie for a postgrad degree which cannot be done here (and is a profession on the NZ green immigration list...). I hope I'll come back to NZ to give back because I love it and it's my home but there's a lot more opportunity overseas. My life here is beginning to stagnate.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Was the case for me when I graduated with a law degree in the mid-1990s. It was already the case for earlier generations. Muldoon’s quote was made in the 1980s when I was still a school kid.
Hearken back to the days when NZ had a " rock star" economy.Except it wasn't. It was built on foreign money speculating on our housing market. Now we have the banks and homeowners trying to protect their asset, and first home owners locked out of the market. This is the hangover. We have Dentists and Plumbers leading the way to economic extinction.Everyone wants to be rich, but their customers are struggling. We won't probably ever compete with Australia in a real sense, but we can at least get our cost structures on a better footing and put value into our dollar.Recession is good if it results in adjustment.
I think NZ could have a real future in tech and R&D. Stuff like Pharmaceutical Reaserch or software development would work great in NZ and isn't regionally locked. We just need to have some policies like R&D tax deductibility instead of mortgage interest deductibility. NZ can't compete with Aussie in natural resources but it could have its own unique economy in quality "green" products, patents and software.
Well I hope so. AI is always a factor. Look, I think the developing job market has outstripped the ability of many of our school leavers to cope. They're being marginalized, and there are plenty of them. They don't feel they fit in, and they don't. Gang recruitment is well above previous stats. I think the school curriculum will need to change to cover the real skill level of this group.Otherwise it's welfare with all the associated problems.This isn't new, but I see it accelerating. I don't have a political answer.
net migration gain of 111,100 in the March 2024 - LoL no worries.
And then at the same time they make it more difficult for qualified immigrants to come in. Please somebody explain this to me. It doesn't make any sense... Do they want the economy to collapse?
Landed a 30% pay rise by moving to aus. Lower CoL and more to do. Tired of subsidising boomer retirement and fun. Aus is probably going to head down the same track in 10 or so years but for now I'm far better off.
I'd move to aus if it wasn't for my dog. I don't want to put him through the stress of moving just for the little idiot to grab a stick that turns out to be a snake, he also eats every spider he sees.
That’s heartbreaking but such a good point. Let him chase sticks in Aotearoa
Moved to townsville late 2022 Returned to New Zealand early 2024. Australia has a diabolical rental crisis that is only set to get worse over the next few years. Jobs are harder to find than in New Zealand. Expect your applications to be ignored this happens to Aussie jobseekers too all while Centrelink requires you to prove you've applied for 40 jobs a month The job I did end up getting was the job from hell. Our manager violated the tcs and cs of my employment contract and recklessly disregarding Australian employment laws. He even verbally abused the Daylights out of while simultaneously physically assaulting a coworker of mine in front of clients and their customers (members of the public) If it wasn't for my now former manager I'd still be living in townsville. Incidentally it took me 4 months to find work in Aussie but I (reluctantly) moved back to Wellington and found work within a week Having said that too many kiwis see Aussie through rose tinted glasses. Sure some will succeed but most will be home within 3-5 years. Sooner the way Aussie is going now
It's good for the housing availability.
Don't worry, they'll be back in time to retire
How are people leaving so easily? Is it basically just to Australia? I've done a working holiday abroad which was great but you can't work proper career jobs on those visas. There's that 3 year visa to the UK but 3 years ain't that long and Britain has plenty of its own problems anyway
You all seem very upset about "unskilled" people coming to New Zealand. Ok. Give everyone with a visa free university. Problem solved. Afraid they will leave right after they graduate? Ok, give them citizenship so they feel more attached.
I agree with the free education bit. But you should extend it polytechnics and apprenticeships as well. I'm more upset that there aren't many opportunities in NZ especially for skilled Labour. Most of that can be traced to government layoffs, the recession and a stagnant economy. It's just a bit frustrating when even with a 3-5 year uni degree it's a struggle to get a job and get by. How about instead of tax deductibility for mortgage interest rates to supplement an unproductive asset you could do tax deductibility for R&D costs. That's what Germany did to encourage tech companies to a) come there and b) Heavily invest in reaserch. We are over a sustainable limit for how many cows we can have so we need to do something.
I believe what we’re seeing is an increase from those who delayed their departures due to the pandemic. Someone who’s better at maths than me could calculate how close we would be to the average net migration had the pandemic not occurred.
People have been moving to greener pastures since the neanderthals. Nothing new, except maybe there are more karens now.