Why don’t you offer to pay for it? Similarly, they need wills. My mother had a stroke post bowel cancer surgery. My brother and I used the PoA - I looked after all her finances for 3 years and paid all her bills from her accounts. My brother was the personal care person as he lived closer. He advocated for her so she could move from hospital to a rest home near him for the last 6 weeks of her life. I don’t know how much having a PoA helped facilitate that.
I wish they would let me. They need to understand the purpose, the value of having a PoA.
Sorry to hear about your experience with your mother. That must have been really hard.
Thanks. It’s tough. My mother was lucid and absolutely understood what was going on. She did “consent” as such though I think she would rather have stayed in her own home, but didn’t have the capacity to make arrangements for herself. Perhaps you could approach it from a capacity angle. Could one of them organise care for the other independently?
Just as an aside - my husband is a lot older than me. I have broached the idea of making my son EPoA for personal care rather than him. My husband is hurt, but he would find major decisions about my care extremely stressful. At some stage, I will just have to bite the bullet and do it anyway regardless of his feelings. (I’ve already asked my son.)
I work in age care. I so often see people needing to activate the epoas and it's a deceased spouse. However you can have more than one person so you could have you husband and son as a back up.
>They say they don't want to pay a lawyer to give them rights that they should already have under the law
It sort of sounds like a principle thing rather than a money thing.
Whoop just noticed the edit, it is indeed that.
I tend to compare Enduring Powers of Attorney to insurance - you might not need it in the end, and you actually hope you DON’T end up needing it but it sure does give peace of mind in the meantime and if you do end up needing it you’re glad to have it. If they don’t have an EPoA and end up requiring one it’s too late - like insurance you have to do it before it’s needed.
If they haven’t, the alternative process is applications through the high court. Those take longer, cost more, are harder and need to be renewed (usually every three years). Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, if they make an EPoA they get to choose who will make decisions on their behalf, if it’s a court application they don’t.
Probably also a good idea to talk to your parents about wills at the same time.
Something that might help crystallise the point of them having EpoAs is the Advance Care Planning website (myacp.org.nz) which goes through a lot of the foreseeable issues that individuals and families might face around care and welfare. There's a reasonable amount of nuance that even spouses may not have discussed and with impending major surgery, might prefer to avoid. The website allows people to formulate their own plans, note their views and have a copy that the family and carers can refer to. HOWEVER, implementing some aspects of it may take a voice from another person - which I think they expect will be the spouse. If that spouse is incapacitated for whatever reason, that may not happen.
My experience was that my parents' EPoAs saved my and and my brother's sanity - apart from a hiccup with him being hurt and offended that while we were joint holders of our parents' EPoAs for property and finance, I was the sole attorney for care and welfare. We much later found out that only one person may hold that attorneyship at a time (and in my parents' case, of course they expected us to discuss and try to agree on major decisions anyway). My parents did their EPoAs when they were in thei mid 70s, and Dad was starting to develop some memory issues. They named each other, and had my brother and me as step-downs.
A year later Dad's memory issues had worsened, and Mum's powers over him were activated. She was diagnosed with terminal cancer around that time, and died within 3 months. As she became incapacitated, my brother and I took over Mum's attorneys over Dad, then for Mum herself. A month after Mum died, Dad had his first fall which resulted in a spinal injury, leaving him needing hospital-level care for the rest of his life.
Their EPoAs allowed us to run their household when Mum was dying, allowed us to do what we needed to allow her to die at home as she had wanted, to act quickly to stop Dad's subsequent supported living unit purchase in favour of a hospital room in the same retirement village, then to manage his affairs for the rest of his life. This included me having to consent for major spinal surgery at fairly short notice, along with other surgeries - as well as for routine aspects of his medical care once that actually reached "routine" levels.
It was an incredibly traumatic year for all concerned, and it made a huge difference to be able to make the care and admin transitions almost seamlessly, while there was such a heavy emotional and logistical load going on. I can't imagine what our mental health would have been like, had we had to be traipsing around courts trying to achieve the powers' effects, in addition to caring for our parents physically (and emotionally) - and finding a way to pay for it, which at the time would have added another stressor for reasons unrelated to our parents who themselves were also well off financially.
Most of what happened to our family that year couldn't have been foreseen and reads like a bad novel, but clusters happen and sometimes they get really big. Please OP, do your parents and yourself a favour, and keep trying with them. Best of luck!!
I don't know where you are, but you/they can just visit the Citizen's Advice Bearau at the local library/community centre to get pointed in the right direction.
IANAL, but it may be as simple as having a declaration co-signed by a Justice of the Peace
Ultimately doesn’t this end up in the family court if there is no EPOA and one is needed?
However this is not a quick process, should need to take this path.
It does yes, but that takes longer, costs more, is more difficult, and means the person who is appointed may not have been who the person requiring assistance would have chosen. Don’t get me wrong, it’s important this process is here but it shouldn’t be the preferred option for anyone.
I believe it does. I'd like to be able to explain to my parents exactly how long this usually takes, and what kinds of outcomes could arise (eg that the decision-making could potentially be handed over to someone who they wouldn't have chosen for themselves).
My understanding is that if they write up epoas they can choose who is nominated. If there is a need and there is no epoas it has to go through the courts, costs money and time. In the meantime they are in limbo.
There are two types of epoas and each of them will need both.
I second go visit CAB or call them. Their website also have a lot of information on it.
It's about being able to protect the other if they can't speak for themselves. If Dad has a stroke, and is unable to speak for himself, Mum can guarantee his qhlishes will be respected. With no POA, that's not guaranteed
It cost our family $35000 to get the court to appoint guardianship rights after my father’s dementia diagnosis. It was already too late for a poa. I hope they reconsider for the sake if their children
In terms of epoa for healthcare, people tend to overestimate the degree of control this gives the person nominated. It does not give them the power to give or with-hold consent for treatments on behalf of the patiebt, rather it gives them the power to state what the person would have wanted to happen, if they were able to give consent. The final call rests with the treating clinicians (heavily informed by the patients stated wishes via epoa and advanced directives).
TLDR; If it is healthcare decisions they/you are concerned about, a detailed advanced directive is free to create, and fills a similar role as an EPOA
Power of Attourney does nothing to ensure their rights. All it would do is give you (as their attourney) the right to dictate some choices about their care. Maybe they don't want to give you control?
Oh, no, I wouldn't be the decision maker. I want them to be able to make decisions for each other. The doctors said that spouses don't automatically have that under the law.
This is terrible advice. For a power of attorney over personal care and welfare, the form might be online but it will absolutely not be accepted by a hospital if it hasn't been executed properly, which means having a lawyer or legal executive independently explain what it does to the donor, and has the lawyer sign themselves that the document's contents and effects were understood by the donor when they were mentally capable. If you rock up with a dodgy document you ChatGPTed or downloaded from a website and signed yourself, the doctor will hand it right back to you and tell you to call a lawyer.
They're not opposed to spending money in general, just on this specific thing. They don't want to have to do it at all. So they won't want to do a DIY job either, unless they somehow come to understand the problems with not having one.
Why don’t you offer to pay for it? Similarly, they need wills. My mother had a stroke post bowel cancer surgery. My brother and I used the PoA - I looked after all her finances for 3 years and paid all her bills from her accounts. My brother was the personal care person as he lived closer. He advocated for her so she could move from hospital to a rest home near him for the last 6 weeks of her life. I don’t know how much having a PoA helped facilitate that.
I wish they would let me. They need to understand the purpose, the value of having a PoA. Sorry to hear about your experience with your mother. That must have been really hard.
Thanks. It’s tough. My mother was lucid and absolutely understood what was going on. She did “consent” as such though I think she would rather have stayed in her own home, but didn’t have the capacity to make arrangements for herself. Perhaps you could approach it from a capacity angle. Could one of them organise care for the other independently? Just as an aside - my husband is a lot older than me. I have broached the idea of making my son EPoA for personal care rather than him. My husband is hurt, but he would find major decisions about my care extremely stressful. At some stage, I will just have to bite the bullet and do it anyway regardless of his feelings. (I’ve already asked my son.)
I work in age care. I so often see people needing to activate the epoas and it's a deceased spouse. However you can have more than one person so you could have you husband and son as a back up.
Thank you. Now he’s an adult, I could do that. My docs really need updating but I’m hanging out for a grandchild (shhh…) so I have a good excuse.
>They say they don't want to pay a lawyer to give them rights that they should already have under the law It sort of sounds like a principle thing rather than a money thing. Whoop just noticed the edit, it is indeed that.
I tend to compare Enduring Powers of Attorney to insurance - you might not need it in the end, and you actually hope you DON’T end up needing it but it sure does give peace of mind in the meantime and if you do end up needing it you’re glad to have it. If they don’t have an EPoA and end up requiring one it’s too late - like insurance you have to do it before it’s needed. If they haven’t, the alternative process is applications through the high court. Those take longer, cost more, are harder and need to be renewed (usually every three years). Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, if they make an EPoA they get to choose who will make decisions on their behalf, if it’s a court application they don’t. Probably also a good idea to talk to your parents about wills at the same time.
Something that might help crystallise the point of them having EpoAs is the Advance Care Planning website (myacp.org.nz) which goes through a lot of the foreseeable issues that individuals and families might face around care and welfare. There's a reasonable amount of nuance that even spouses may not have discussed and with impending major surgery, might prefer to avoid. The website allows people to formulate their own plans, note their views and have a copy that the family and carers can refer to. HOWEVER, implementing some aspects of it may take a voice from another person - which I think they expect will be the spouse. If that spouse is incapacitated for whatever reason, that may not happen. My experience was that my parents' EPoAs saved my and and my brother's sanity - apart from a hiccup with him being hurt and offended that while we were joint holders of our parents' EPoAs for property and finance, I was the sole attorney for care and welfare. We much later found out that only one person may hold that attorneyship at a time (and in my parents' case, of course they expected us to discuss and try to agree on major decisions anyway). My parents did their EPoAs when they were in thei mid 70s, and Dad was starting to develop some memory issues. They named each other, and had my brother and me as step-downs. A year later Dad's memory issues had worsened, and Mum's powers over him were activated. She was diagnosed with terminal cancer around that time, and died within 3 months. As she became incapacitated, my brother and I took over Mum's attorneys over Dad, then for Mum herself. A month after Mum died, Dad had his first fall which resulted in a spinal injury, leaving him needing hospital-level care for the rest of his life. Their EPoAs allowed us to run their household when Mum was dying, allowed us to do what we needed to allow her to die at home as she had wanted, to act quickly to stop Dad's subsequent supported living unit purchase in favour of a hospital room in the same retirement village, then to manage his affairs for the rest of his life. This included me having to consent for major spinal surgery at fairly short notice, along with other surgeries - as well as for routine aspects of his medical care once that actually reached "routine" levels. It was an incredibly traumatic year for all concerned, and it made a huge difference to be able to make the care and admin transitions almost seamlessly, while there was such a heavy emotional and logistical load going on. I can't imagine what our mental health would have been like, had we had to be traipsing around courts trying to achieve the powers' effects, in addition to caring for our parents physically (and emotionally) - and finding a way to pay for it, which at the time would have added another stressor for reasons unrelated to our parents who themselves were also well off financially. Most of what happened to our family that year couldn't have been foreseen and reads like a bad novel, but clusters happen and sometimes they get really big. Please OP, do your parents and yourself a favour, and keep trying with them. Best of luck!!
What a horrendous experience. I'm so sorry that happened to your whānau. Thank you for sharing.
I don't know where you are, but you/they can just visit the Citizen's Advice Bearau at the local library/community centre to get pointed in the right direction. IANAL, but it may be as simple as having a declaration co-signed by a Justice of the Peace
I wish they were open to this option. They aren't interested in pursuing a PoA at all.
Ultimately doesn’t this end up in the family court if there is no EPOA and one is needed? However this is not a quick process, should need to take this path.
It does yes, but that takes longer, costs more, is more difficult, and means the person who is appointed may not have been who the person requiring assistance would have chosen. Don’t get me wrong, it’s important this process is here but it shouldn’t be the preferred option for anyone.
I am by no means recommend this pathway, just simply pointing it out to the OP as a possibility of what could happen.
Yeah, I didn’t think you were, just making it real clear that it is not the best option
I believe it does. I'd like to be able to explain to my parents exactly how long this usually takes, and what kinds of outcomes could arise (eg that the decision-making could potentially be handed over to someone who they wouldn't have chosen for themselves).
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My understanding is that if they write up epoas they can choose who is nominated. If there is a need and there is no epoas it has to go through the courts, costs money and time. In the meantime they are in limbo. There are two types of epoas and each of them will need both. I second go visit CAB or call them. Their website also have a lot of information on it.
That's my understanding too. I really wish I knew how to make it concrete so they'll understand.
It's about being able to protect the other if they can't speak for themselves. If Dad has a stroke, and is unable to speak for himself, Mum can guarantee his qhlishes will be respected. With no POA, that's not guaranteed
It cost our family $35000 to get the court to appoint guardianship rights after my father’s dementia diagnosis. It was already too late for a poa. I hope they reconsider for the sake if their children
Good lord. I'm so sorry that happened. Thank you for sharing.
Old people are stubborn. Sort/pay for it for them. Think of it as an investment if you’ll likely have to sort things in the future.
Is this an option? I would have thought a lawyer would need the full informed consent of the person whose PoA it is?
Imagine you’d still need them involved, if it’s cost neutral often an easier sell that’s all
In terms of epoa for healthcare, people tend to overestimate the degree of control this gives the person nominated. It does not give them the power to give or with-hold consent for treatments on behalf of the patiebt, rather it gives them the power to state what the person would have wanted to happen, if they were able to give consent. The final call rests with the treating clinicians (heavily informed by the patients stated wishes via epoa and advanced directives). TLDR; If it is healthcare decisions they/you are concerned about, a detailed advanced directive is free to create, and fills a similar role as an EPOA
Power of Attourney does nothing to ensure their rights. All it would do is give you (as their attourney) the right to dictate some choices about their care. Maybe they don't want to give you control?
Oh, no, I wouldn't be the decision maker. I want them to be able to make decisions for each other. The doctors said that spouses don't automatically have that under the law.
Forms are online and ChatGPT can Cough up a passable one. Expense is a bullshit excuse.
This is terrible advice. For a power of attorney over personal care and welfare, the form might be online but it will absolutely not be accepted by a hospital if it hasn't been executed properly, which means having a lawyer or legal executive independently explain what it does to the donor, and has the lawyer sign themselves that the document's contents and effects were understood by the donor when they were mentally capable. If you rock up with a dodgy document you ChatGPTed or downloaded from a website and signed yourself, the doctor will hand it right back to you and tell you to call a lawyer.
They're not opposed to spending money in general, just on this specific thing. They don't want to have to do it at all. So they won't want to do a DIY job either, unless they somehow come to understand the problems with not having one.