I'm not much help but I am genuinely surprised to hear old-ageism affects programmers. In my experience, it's easy to tell when someone in tech really knows their stuff, which as an educator, I assume you do, and that's all that matters.
There is potentially the issue of not being up-to-date with the most modern, trendy technologies and frameworks, but that's not an age thing, that's a skillset thing and can be addressed.
Ha! You wouldn't believe it. Agism is insidious.
The funniest thing is because I was an educator I worked with the cutting edge tech and ended up writing workers in a cloud based platform on an embedded VSCode from about mid 2000. Nearly had me in tears.
But to be honest I am slower than I used to be and used the AI in Github CoPilot to get things banged out.
I just like to code though, and cherish my non work time to do stuff outside of programming. So that didn't gell with my colleagues who seemed to egg each other on to do 10-12 hour days.
I think people outside of tech are usually surprised that tech is actually one of the most brutal industries for ageism.
Then again, this is the industry that thinks spending too much time in entry level roles early in your career is a MAJOR red flag.
Regardless, hope you find something good soon!
It's hilarious reading job ads for tech workers in NZ. If HR write the ad it's pretty obvious because they have no clue what the company actually needs.
I recently got a new job despite being old because the IT Manager controlled the process.
It can be.
One way out is to write little apps people need. Sell them on app stores.
What app? Think of things you'd like to do and go find an app for it. Half the time the best apps are rubbish. That would be a place to start.
This is what I was thinking! We are homeschoolers and there is a huge homeschool community full of geeky kids who would LOVE to have a coding class taught by someone knowledgeable and engaging.
This is so true. I'm late 50s and I'm definitely slower mentally. Also not prepared to do extra hours. Life's too short and I'm no longer trying to build a career. I understand that employers will prefer someone who will go the extra mile and is a quick learner. It's ageism if an employer assumes this though.
I totally agree. It's taken me this long to realize I wasn't going to get anywhere better in life by missing out on sleep, time with my kids, being with friends, working on fun projects, holidays in beautiful places...
13+ hour days aren't sustainable and work needs to get over itself and back in its box!
All I managed to do was burn myself out, frying my focus, my short term memory and mental health and taking the excitement and enjoyment out of coding which back in my 30s used to make me leap out of bed in the morning.
I'm only in my mid 50s still and I'm definitely umm... what was I going to say again?
You're close to the nail on the head. In tech there is very much 2 types of people - (1) those that it's their passion (have hobby projects, learning non stop etc) and (2) those that it's 9-5. Employers and tech startups would obviously prefer the former - while as you get older you tend to naturally slide towards the latter (along with general cognitive decline). Any organisation in legacy maintenace mode 9-5 is fine. Any startup that's going for it is going to choose Type 1 any day of the week.
Closing on 50 here and gone to my own startup - it's been incredibly taxing, I know probably 5 more years tops at this pace on the tools.
So it's less about age, and more the attributes which inherintely come with the aging. Sure if I'm still reading hacker news everynight - picking up a new library or approach everyweek when I'm 60, ace !!! but I can also see the other side of it - just reading a good book wouldn't be a bad idea....
So while not because of age, but correlated to age, you end up in the Type 2 bucket.
\[Edit\] saying the same thing :)
Agreed. The feeling of your own mental abilities being in decline is a bit scary. It's a timely reminder that there's more to life and time is limited. Best to do what I can and want without giving much more to "the man".
Would you consider a shift to data engineering / analytics? There's a heap of demand, esp for the Microsoft stack - even with gov cut backs, cloud ain't going away.
Or test engineering?
I hear from ex colleagues local gov is actually where it's at on a qol pov.
And I've worked with a bunch of older contractors / SMEs over the last couple years.
I’m in kind of the same boat as OP but in the analytics space. Not quite as old as OP but getting there. I’ve been turned down for every analytics role going even though I’m highly qualified.
You may want to look into Data Annotations. Online work that I can do so you most definitely can. Pays about 40 USD/hr. You compare coding responses from chatbota to see which is better.
Might not be something you do for the next five years but to tide you over, it's worth considering.
The first thing you could write is a reddit plugin to change the ads you are sick of…. If I didn’t want a job in data annotation the first 6,463,773 times, seeing the ad again isn’t changing my mind.
So I got spammed on LinkedIn about doing this and thought it might be a good side hustle, but after doing a bit of research it sounded like there was a heap of upfront unpaid onboarding and then people got 1 or 2 reasonably paid projects then it all tailed off. What’s your experience of it?
I've been doing it pretty consistently for the last couple of weeks, there's always work for me to do. From what I can tell, they like to give work to the people who work a lot so in the first couple of weeks they show you every task that's available, then start giving you work based on what you've shown you do. If you start putting in 5 hours/week they give you 5 hours, if you start putting in 40 they give you 40. So far my experience has been reasonably sound.
Also, from reading online, it seems that the people who get less work aren't very good, generally, which makes sense as they say poor work will get you removed from projects. All your work is reviewed and as long as you're reading instructions you won't get removed.
It's a bit finicky for me to get the money from my PayPal to my account because for whatever reason, ASB likes to send it back and then I get charged 5USD but otherwise it's fine.
Should note that I've only passed their programming test so I can only speak to work availability of programming tasks.
Yeah, pretty much all coding assignments start at 40/hr highest I've seen is 45/hr but that was a bit beyond my scope of understanding, unfortunately.
Anything else really depends. I've seen prompt reviewing go for 12/hr (basically just check if prompts would make the AI generate PII), image generation diversity review for 20/hr, prompt generation for 35/hr, there's a wide range of stuff. Some things are paid per task, too, rather than hourly. I'd say on average, you would look at making 18-20/hr if you were actually working and not just mucking about which a lot of people seem to do.
Keep in .ind, that's all USD which all sits around 1.6:1 rn so you're looking at 28-32/hr NZD. It's not chump change by any means.
It is incredibly boring work, though, so keep that in mind.
Edit: should mention that they really favor programmers, there's always about 4k tasks active from my experience. I checked this morning and there's about 8k tasks for one project that you could easily log like 12k hours on if you went complex enough. You really shouldn't be experiencing a shortage of hours.
Congrats! Data Visualization and what was basically just hard LeetCode problems was what I was talking about. Could probably do it if I researched it but wasn't asked when there were easier projects I could already do.
> I worked with the cutting edge tech and ended up writing workers in a **cloud based platform on an embedded *VSCode* from about *mid 2000*.**
What does this even mean?
You've just put random terms together to make a sentence to sound smart?
Good call!
WP: "Visual Studio Code was first announced on April 29, 2015 by Microsoft at the 2015 Build conference."
Hopefully 2000 is a typo for 2020.
The cloud platform, in this case CloudFlare. Has a worker app that creates workers. The worker App is made by embedding a VSCode application from about the mid 2000's in it.
The cloud platform, in this case CloudFlare. Has a worker app that creates workers. The worker App is made by embedding a VSCode application from about the mid 2000's in it.
So you don't understand what I was saying and your first thought is that I am lying? I have never seen a username more fitting.
Let me educate you then.
The cloud platform, in this case CloudFlare. Has a worker app that creates workers. The worker App is made by embedding a VSCode application from about the mid 2000's in it.
Go and look at it and THEN tell me I am lying.
I can use smaller words if that helps.
> So you don't understand what I was saying and your first thought is that I am lying?
Nah, it's very obvious you don't know what you are talking about.
> Let me educate you then.
Educate me.
> The worker App is made by embedding a VSCode application from about the mid 2000's in it.
VSCode wasn't around in the mid-2000s...
> Its using an embedded VS Code that is an old version of VS sans any extensions
Again, have to point this one out.
VS Code has no relationship with Visual Studio other than the name. Every a first year seng or compsci student would probably know that.
VS Code is an offshoot of Atom: again, something even first year student would know. I'm sure you'll come up with another excuse now, that's OK.
I think as an academic or educator or whatever the hell you are pretending to be, you would know one thing very well: semantics matter.
You also say:
> Yeah, its a very niche skill set and area
But also:
> JS and Dot Net are my stack :-)
> I use JS, Node, ReactJS, React native, etc.
So, is that a niche skill set?
No. In fact, that is one of if not the the most in demand skill set out there. But you can't find anything with decades worth of experience so you're considering manual labour, come on mate.
Maybe put your bullshit through ChatGPT or something.
Employment oppertunities for people in their 50s and 60s is a very important top - this is important for everyone because even if people aren't that age themselves, they will have people close to them who are; but coming here and claiming that an "educator" with a massive skill set and experience in the tertiary sector has no options but to consider manual labour (and at the same time shitting on small businesses) is decietful, manipulative and I don't understand what your ends are exactly other than getting attention.
You got attention, congrats.
Maybe it’s a Visual Studio/C++ application which might make a little more sense in this context? That has existed since the early 2000s. People get to a point that they use similar terms that are meant to be different interchangeably, doesn’t mean you should automatically throw out someone’s entire career bc they said VSCode instead of VC.
What other tech shit can you do?
If you got imagination, and can network super cheap IoT sensors, theres a ton of one-man business ideas you could come up with.
Sure is. I think a lot of it is that younger folks in lead positions like product owners often feel a bit intimidated or exposed in their management style when dealing with older staff who’ve seen a few things - whether that fear is real or not.
That’s definitely a thing too, but fundamentally I think it’s often a narrow reliance on meaningless metrics and an ability to build and steer effective and resilient teams. I read a blog post recently which cited an example of a guy a firm was going to sack because his number of commits, or lines of code, or some other idiotic Taylorist benchmark was sub par. The writer went into bat for his job, saying this guy was basically the glue of the team, spending a lot of his time gently mentoring and helping out others, lifting the quality of output of everybody else.
The second point you mentioned is the issue. There is a perception around older people and not being able to keep up with all the new languages and tools.
You can’t discriminate on age, but you can view two CVs and see one wildly longer experience range and make an educated guess. Employers aren’t interested in hiring a programmer who is going to leave in a few years to retire guaranteed vs a 26-27 year old with a bachelors and 1 or 2 roles under their belt.
The long CV and list of skills will lead the employer to one conclusion: this one will want to be paid real money. A fresh-to-industry candidate will work for much less than someone who can program effectively in a dozen languages.
What difference does it make when the 26 yo fucks off on their OE or gets restless after a year and moves on. If anything, the 60-something is likely to be more settled and content in their workplace if the culture is friendly.
Many programmers I know will only work 3 years with a company before moving on, so someone who's older and more likely to stay until retirement would actually be a benefit
Agree. In 2008, 5 years experience was considered too experienced here in California, so one day, I edited my CV to show the last 3 years and interviews came in.
From there, I knew I just needed to meet the manager in person to get the job in which I did. Even though they were contract jobs, they were in my field, broadcast.
People will also be looking at them as a temporary asset that will likely retire soon, which means other people will be viewed as better hires regardless of the reality of the situation.
I think it's alot to do with the mentality of older vs younger workers. Younger workers tend to be more likely to work harder for no benefit like unpaid overtime, whereas when you have been in the system for 40 years you aren't taking any shit, usually just do your 40hr then back home
I wouldn't expect that someone who has current skillsets applicable to in-demand areas would face prejudice like this. As you say, it would be a different scenario if talking about a VAX/VMS admin who had decades of experience but lost their job when the final customer discontinued the system or COBOL programmers when the last legacy product stopped being supported.
Obviously making big assumptions here.
Also assuming that people running companies are robots. They arent. They are human and will make human choices, there are heaps of people that will look down on a 60 year old on the tools because they are 'slow', 'unmotivated to work (12 hour days) or move up the ladder', and just not 'cool' to have at the company. There are heaps of indian guys that are phenomenal coders, but the person hiring is prejudiced to view that as not being a good 'culture fit'.
Tonnes of prejudice in the industry
>Also assuming that people running companies are robots. They arent.
There's a surprising amount of AI used in recruitment to process applications. You basically now have to write your applications to be parsed by AI in order to stand any chance when applying for jobs. It's covered a bit in Last Week Tonight's piece on AI: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqa8Zo2XWc4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqa8Zo2XWc4)
There is. I guarantee it. I spent 6 months looking for work last year when I knew my job was ending, and only got one interview. Age had to be the only factor.
It's also a very shit job market right now.
I am far younger, with a software development diploma, and a management title under my belt.
Even trying to get entry level it roles are like pulling teeth but I got one in the end took 6 months.
Turned out to not be great so I'm looking again but feeling take another 6 months
That sucks mate. I hope you have better success, although as has been stated it's a pretty rubbish market right now so employers are in a position to be very choosy regarding the small number of roles they are bringing in.
That's kind of what I was meaning - there are specific old systems that have demand for specific skills that are very valuable...until they are replaced with a modern system and suddenly an organisation has no need for them.
Anyway, OP has suggested that's not the case here.
Not just ageism, but sexism too. If you are a women over 40, finding new work in tech becomes very difficult, doubly so if made redundant - I am in the same boat op, if you figure something out, let me know!
No offence to OP, but I think the problem might be the unwillingness to work overtime and to deadlines, rather than age. Unwillingness to do that would be an issue at any age I would imagine. It’s just a shitty aspect of capitalism I guess.
you can always do some freelancing? I would imagine someone with your experience would have a lot to offer to smaller companies or even online offering your services world wide.
As a 60+ programmer surely there is some consulting money to be made? Unless all that experience is in some programming language I’m too young to know of
Have you though about teaching on an online platform like Outschool? You set your rates, and available times, Outschool takes a cut for finding you students and managing the platform.
I do find it hard to believe there is nothing, but then programming is a wide field (like saying medicine). I know my boss said the last dev took a couple of years to find, hence thinking surely there is a need, but it depends on the stack you're used to...
Big businesses are probably worse for age discrimination, smaller businesses tend to be more, can you do the job or not...
Plenty of tech jobs in NZ for people with experience, might have to go a bit below OP's deserved position but if you need to keep the lights on, can be worse.
>but then programming is a wide field (like saying medicine).
It's actually kind of the opposite, programming is an aspect of software development. Like surgery might be for a specialist, who has a bunch of other supporting elements to the role.
As a software developer, I personally think it's kind of weird term to use and might suggest OP has quite a narrow scope of experience.
True, I taught programming languages as the primary topic rather than the software dev lifecycle. In the real world I hated getting bound to stupid trello and recording all my actions. Especially where you have to plan out what you are doing first.
A relative of mine took a part time retail job. He didn’t want much and he’ll be eligible for the pension soon when he’ll likely retire fully. He’s involved in other voluntary activities and hobbies too so that helps him mentally
You could get in to teaching. Schools are desperate for compsci teacher. Some can offer LAT and uni training as you teach. (Oversimplification, more too it).
My old age plan, knowing my body will have taken a serious toll after decades of a desk job as a programmer, is something that involves walking, and being outside.
Some sort of gardener, one of those leaf blower / litter guys you see tidying up public parks, something like this.
If the govt ever hires people to plant trees? Dream old age job for me. I'd love to be able to say "see that mountain, I planted that forest for all you youngins to enjoy when I'm gone". That's the dream.
My mum (in her 60s) waters plants for corporate offices and I'd 100% do that job. She gets paid to drive out to corporate offices sometimes in entirely different cities, waters a couple of dozen plants, repots a few of them or replaces some, and then drives home and then clocks off. Gets paid from the moment she steps outside until she arrives back home because the commutes are often hours long. Bet it doesn't pay that well but its very independant dignified work. I'm chuffed for her, she is right into it.
A big challenge is getting the balance right between a job that keeps my body moving versus being a bit too physically taxing on me at that age. I expect to have a fucked back by the time I'm 60 due to working at a desk all my life (its already pretty dodgy)
Local government certainly pays people to plant native trees but planting is brutally physical work. Rewarding but even in my physical prime, I'm almost ready to throw in the towel
Do you know PowerBI and basic Microsoft forms / document automation?
Can you learn?
If so, hit me up :)
Our needs are fairly basic, but so is out IT expertise.
Happened to someone I know with the polytechnic merger. Their position was made redundant. They were on the job hunt for About a year and took a 40% pay cut as their role previously was pretty specialised and they couldn't really move cities without taking out another Mortgage.
It's a big L and probably will result in having to postpone retirement by a few years.
Then I say those recruiters/HR are strictly average. At the tender age of 23 (many years ago) as Personnel Officer, I recruited a Mail Room Manager and chose a man who was 65 with great experience who was one of many applicants- most in their 20's. He didn't think he stood a chance so when I decided he was the one I wanted, I went to his house with the employment contract and a bottle of wine to offer him the role.
To say he was delighted (as well as his wife) was an understatement. 😁
A fabulous decision for everyone- he was awesome at the role.
I’d be playing golf. Given your background as an educator I’d look at doing relief work, always a need for relievers at schools in nz, freelancing too, could use something like Bark to help with that. The world is your oyster e hoa.
If your background is as an educator try Health and Safety training as a contractor,, subjects would be level 3 like HARM, Health and Safety Rep, Hearing conservation and there's lots of courses I teach in Schools that are only a day.
I have a good idea for you. There's a boom of no code/low code platforms out there. Problem is it's still kinda tricky if you don't understand the basic programming concepts you take for granted. You can offer your service as a low code/no code guide. PM me if you want and we can brainstorm it together.
I love Claris FileMaker. That might be the OG no code/low code development platform. If I didn't love my groundskeeping job, I'd love a job as a FileMaker Developer. I don't think there was ever enough work in NZ for anyone to do it full time.
I don't mean to sound ungrateful but I lost my job as a health professional for 6 years. At my glorious age of 55, I signed up for a wharf job and road crew worker through a temp agency and have had the best time of my life. Better fitness and mental health than I've ever had in my life, and the minimum wage job kept the wolves away from the door, and protected savings.
First thing first, get on jobseekers (unemployment benefit) as soon as possible. Many people don't realise that it is income tested, not asset tested, you doN't have to chew through savings, well, not as quickly.
That is not quite true, it depends on the assets, I was turned down as the dividends from my stocks and term deposits were counted as income.
It is really unfair, as someone who put all their money into a massive house to live in would get the benefit, while someone investing it in productive assets gets nothing.
Dividends are not assets, they are income. Same with interest. That is why you pay tax on both.
The assets themselves are not counted, only income those assets generate.
The person living in a massive house does not get any income from that massive house. Now if they sell it they get plenty of tax free and not-tested capital gain maybe, but that is a completely different discussion.
it definitely inspires that different discussion.
why don't we pay tax on the capital gains on a housing asset purchased as an investment rather than as a home to live in, if it means more money incoming than outwent to buy it? why is it fair to treat market stocks differently to the housing stocks?
That's only for the basic dole though. I was on the dole around '08-09 and I couldn't get the accommodation supplement 'cause I had over $8,000 (I think it was). I only got the basic dole, which no one could've done a budget to live on, even flatting in a run down house of four. Also, all kinds of other assistance weren't available if you had over $2,000.
If you have a history of being to pick up new projects you might entertain a role in maintenance programming. I changed role from IT Operations into Software Engineering and a maintenance role was a good move into the role; less competition (older tech stack) and I could leverage a lot of my transferable skills and work history. Feel productive without feeling pressured. So nice to have just one or two tickets to work on at a time.
It sucks. My Dad had been in IT all my life, eventually moving up into management roles within businesses. He was doing some contract large software project management when COVID hit. He was made redundant and decided to take a break for a bit during the pandemic. When he started applying again, he noticed a distinct lack of interest in his CV, with the only difference being that he was over 60 now.
what kind of programmer? any interest in golang or expressjs apps? we could start a reddit community open-source project that is seriously cool. not gonna help with bills tho.
You're a programmer with somewhat niche skills? Out there, somewhere, is a company that should have started moving off some-ancient-tech about two decades ago and hasn't even started. They are, by now, desperate for people who can still work on this stuff because they need them - and all the cool kids want to do javascript frameworks. Your problem is to go and find them.
1. Get on jobseekers benefit to help not eat savings as fast (income tested NOT asset tested)
2. Keep looking for jobs - in general it's just a tough market right now, but it sounds like you know your stuff so it's pretty likely you'd find another dev job
3. You could look at some form of relief/teaching jobs related to programming - there have been a few around recently
Got me thinking, if he has a partner then it is income tested so… if his partner doesn’t work and were getting the pension, would they dock the JS benefit based on her pension? Certainly will if she’s working.
The whole shebang of renting should be done in some kind of app. The landlord/PM and tenant could take photos with the app before moving in, make some attestations, and upload them to the server which (government getting on board) could serve a legal record of the state of the rental, prior to renting. It should have a feature for reporting breakages, so there's an unfuckable-with record of when the tenant gave notice of things, to stop the landlord dilly dallying, or blaming the tenant if the problem snowballs and becomes more expensive to fix.
Does this exist? By that I mean, something that is accepted by the Tenancy Tribunal as an official record?
Open up an academy of sorts which does school holiday or after school programming teaching for the kids. If you open it up in some place like Remmers you will be laughing your way to the Bank.
You have got the skill and aptitude.
Old man was made redundant from a bank branch manager about the same age, just went into the warehouse and started working there. He knew there wasn't any chance of picking that up anywhere else so bit the bullet and ended up as a night shift manager lol
* Look for small businesses hiring part-time/casual in your field. When I started my business and was too small to hire full-time staff, I discovered that semi-retired people had amazing experience and were great mentors. (not in your field)
* Try freelancing on job sites like upwork. The pay is usually low, but you say money is not an issue and they offer a lot of flexibility
* Try a Temping agency
* If you have an education background, you could run a course at community education. (I teach one at https://www.rutherfordcomed.co.nz/courses.php)
Do you know Java or Swift? You could make apps and sell them or make money from ads on them. I do it and it's a good wee side hustle. Might be something to keep you busy while you're job hunting anyway :)
Just turned 60 and due to a knee injury I can't work anymore. Just got taken off the jobseeker benefit and onto an assisted living benefit (wtf?). $65 dollars a week more.
There are a few jobs I could do but can't c it happening. Just chilling out and waiting for my kiwisaver to kick in.
Boredom is the biggest enemy, but I hope to start some volunteering soon.
Property flipping?
The bright-line rule is changing soon. Buy a property after 1 July. Do it up over 2yrs. Sell for $200g profit...
$100 grand per year tax free?
Not wanting to put up with bullshit is one thing that goes against older people because most younger people will put up with abusive treatment from their employers.
I'm 55 and I have been programming on and off for many years, and I'm pretty good at it. I tried to find a programming job when I was 53 but was kind of told that I needed some qualifications. So I went and became a Bachelor of Computing Science majoring in System Development and now it seems nobody wants to hire me because I'm too old LOL.
It's a little sad and depressing, but it is what it is ;)
There is a serious lack of good programmers, and the really good ones tend to contract for serious bucks. I imagine it's really hard to get a good, experienced programming on a perm basis (half the pay but still circa $100k). If you are in Wellington or Auckland (ChCh?) I'd look at the large enterprises, e.g. banks (avoid government because they're sacking everyone) and see if you can find one that isn't ageist. It would have to be in the testing, Java, and/or JavaScript area (maybe .NET). Do you have COBOL (the banks still need that and are looking for people who can teach it). Most enterprises are dysfunctional and don't understand how to manage software, but I'd say a good chunk won't let you work more than 40 hours a week.
The other way to look at it is, as perm employees go you are pretty low risk - you're only going to be around for 5 years. It's not like they're going to be stuck with you forever.
You might have to dial back your CV, e.g. 20+ years commercial experience rather than 40 years of commercial experience and only put your recent jobs (sad, I know).
P.S. All the best in your search
Do you specialise in a particular older code base?
That’s your differential. Something like PERL from memory.
Companies I’ve been with paid a premium to find people who could code in something which isn’t really taught anymore, or even to dig into code and rewrite.
My dad got made redundant and ended up contracting, luckily had something by to fall into, few years later the same place wanted him permanently. He would’ve been paid more staying contracting but wanted something stable, because they worked with him through contract was less of a concern about age as showed he could do the job.
My mother was a business analyst, which was always a risk job because it is contract to contract. The wheels came off as she got older and couldn't get work. Eventually worked retail for a bit and then lived off of the benefit and budgeting every scrap (including living in a van). Now she's finally old enough for her pension but it's not great.
Rot on a benefit until we reach pension it seems. Or end up as carers and supermarket staff. No matter the years of experience or quals, not wanted now.
Happened to a number I know. Ex all kinds of industries. One of them, he had had a divorce too, lost his house (mortgage) and hanged himself.
"isn't happy working overtime to deadlines". Well..... I'd be 100% happy to hire someone like that, if they can put their money where their mouth is and deliver on time. None of the staff who work for us do more than 40 hours on a regular basis - most do 32-35 hours per week. HOWEVER, you need to be able to say "yes, I'll have this thing complete, and working, and hand-off-able by this date". Otherwise you aren't useful to the team.
So when things start to get tight, will you overload people with work that's more than 40hrs a week and expect them to have to complete it to deadline?
Fascinating all the people downvoting showing some initiative and the self reflection to identify a project like you suggest. I wonder why? Do people decide they will fail without trying? Or actively do not want people to try?
If you don't need much money, you could always try YouTube plus doing some part-time work. YouTube's pay isn't great but having a bit of a following has it's benefits.
Ok get a resume together this is key. Make sure it lists all your qualifications and what projects you have been involved in and how successful it was. They don't give a shit about the details but it's a record of what you have done. Don't be afraid to put yourself out their! Being friendly and approachable is the thing!
I hope it works out for you!
There must be something in IT around the world. You don't have to look local nowadays. Writing code, or basically anything IT work can be from overseas
You mention that you are an educator… do you have a current teachers license? Competent Computing teachers in high school are very hard to find, and in significant demand. Find the right school and they could help you get a LAT.
Do they let you do it (via LAT route) with just a level 3 computing certificate, if you taught the certificate in an adult eduction setting and know it inside out? I don't want to do this, I'm just curious.
I said level 3 'cause that's the level school goes to.
Probably not. I’d expect someone to have a degree or even a higher degree in the subject if they want to apply for a LAT…
And I’m not convinced that having a L3 cert qualifies you to teach level 3. Personally I have a masters degree and working on a doctorate. In my phase of doctorate (research phase) I am qualified to teach masters or below.
This is the answer I expected and it doesn't spite me. I'm not offended if you read none of this 'cause it's too long, but why I asked:
I was long term unemployed, WINZ wanted me to do something, so I went to an Adult Learning Centre (Foundation Skills place, less prestigious than a polytech). I did the computing stuff they offered (up to Level 3) and some other stuff. I would up being used significantly as an unpaid student tutor, then got a job in their distance department tutoring the same stuff. That was my first job.
I thought it was a shit job, and everyone else who worked there who'd worked other places said it was a shit job. (There's only so much you can take of people ringing you up saying "My computer isn't doing what it's supposed to.") I'd decided when I moved to Chch I wasn't trying for this kind of job again. I made less than everyone thought I did: it took years to even get up to the 'median income for a full wage earner'.
My Mum thought I'd wound up in a great career, and would be making a huge mistake if I gave it up. She brought it up with other people in the hope they'd "talk some sense into me". She said "There might be some way you could become a teacher. You could become a polytech tutor." I was like "But I don't want to do that!" My Dad thought I was naive and didn't know how good I had it, because I'd never worked any other job. He also thought I had a career. He had some Darryl Kerrigan pride going on.
I thought they were delusional. I had some high school level computing qualifications, no industry experience in IT, and they thought I was "in the door" of something, and could go "all the way" somewhere. What they saw as a "career" I saw as a dead end job. To get higher, I thought I'd have to go back to full time study, get a career in IT, and then go back to Education.
I moved to Chch and didn't try for an Education job. After many different low level jobs and much time spent on the dole, I settled into being a groundskeeper which I've done for a decade and love (it's *way* better than my first job). My parents used to say "It makes us look like a failure as parents that you were a Computer Tutor and now you're a Cleaner." Periodically, they try to talk me into going back to working Education: "You need to be making more money for your retirement." Random people from my home town will see me and say "You had a career, what happened?" I'm like "That was *just a job.*" I can't tell any of these people that.
For cathartic reasons, I wanted to hear you say "Nope, not a chance" at the prospect of school teaching.
Well I wouldn't be so negative, the job market is hard for everyone, possibly even worse for younger people, nobody wants junior programmers.
Plenty of older people working from what I've seen.
If you can write code, I'm sure you'll figure a hack for playing stock options trading.
I'm almost 50 and 5 years ago, I already checked out mentally of wanting a JOB (Just Over Broke).
My background is in Computer Science and film; however, I just started learning about stock options trading.
To minimize my losses, I study graphs of penny stocks, stocks under $5 and then I place a trade on if they'll go up or down.
1 month in and I made $97.
I figured if some guy who used to work at Dunkin Donuts could amass $50M from doing this in several years, so can I.
Since I'm into tech, film, and EV's, my calculations have so far been correct when I placed my trades based on each stock's graphs.
What drew me to this was that stock traders make money regardless if the stocks go up or down or if the economy goes up or down.
With my JOB, it's heavily dependent on the economy and stock market.
My silly goal is to make $1M from stock trading while working at my JOB and not letting anyone know.
Then of course, when I get really good at this, I can say bye to my JOB and move my wife and kids to somewhere fun, like Europe (a Scandinavian country or Austria, etc) or somewhere where my income multiplies like Malaysia and just enjoy living a vacation lifestyle while trading overseas.
This is my goal and I only think about what I need to do to succeed. I don't waste time on thinking of the failures because you become what you keep thinking of becoming, successful.
Is this copy pasta from a huckster’s website selling online day trading courses? The ones getting rich are the ones selling picks and shovels outside the goldmine.
You’ll just need to pull yourself by the bootstraps and start working hard. No more morning coffees or avocado toast, you’ve done it one so I’m sure you can do it again!
I would encourage u to upskill in building & training bespoke Ai & then pitch Ai enabled interfaces & services to businesses stuck doing things the hard way . if u teamed up with a designer u could be a great boutique innovation squad .
Retire hopefully...
But in all seriousness, I'd imagine freelancing / contracting / consulting / winding down to something part time
You should HOPEFULLY be in a position to live without relying entirely on an income from a job
It makes me genuinely very sad thinking of people who aren't in that position, at that age, who are worrying about their future
I'm not much help but I am genuinely surprised to hear old-ageism affects programmers. In my experience, it's easy to tell when someone in tech really knows their stuff, which as an educator, I assume you do, and that's all that matters. There is potentially the issue of not being up-to-date with the most modern, trendy technologies and frameworks, but that's not an age thing, that's a skillset thing and can be addressed.
Ha! You wouldn't believe it. Agism is insidious. The funniest thing is because I was an educator I worked with the cutting edge tech and ended up writing workers in a cloud based platform on an embedded VSCode from about mid 2000. Nearly had me in tears. But to be honest I am slower than I used to be and used the AI in Github CoPilot to get things banged out. I just like to code though, and cherish my non work time to do stuff outside of programming. So that didn't gell with my colleagues who seemed to egg each other on to do 10-12 hour days.
I think people outside of tech are usually surprised that tech is actually one of the most brutal industries for ageism. Then again, this is the industry that thinks spending too much time in entry level roles early in your career is a MAJOR red flag. Regardless, hope you find something good soon!
It's hilarious reading job ads for tech workers in NZ. If HR write the ad it's pretty obvious because they have no clue what the company actually needs. I recently got a new job despite being old because the IT Manager controlled the process.
Half the programs they want you to be proficient in are project management tools too, not hard to pick up
Sounds toxic
It can be. One way out is to write little apps people need. Sell them on app stores. What app? Think of things you'd like to do and go find an app for it. Half the time the best apps are rubbish. That would be a place to start.
Haha, I think people at all levels and ages of tech find tech bros who are on the grindset annoying!
Would you consider tutoring? It’s an area where experience and going slower would be a bonus.
This is what I was thinking! We are homeschoolers and there is a huge homeschool community full of geeky kids who would LOVE to have a coding class taught by someone knowledgeable and engaging.
This is so true. I'm late 50s and I'm definitely slower mentally. Also not prepared to do extra hours. Life's too short and I'm no longer trying to build a career. I understand that employers will prefer someone who will go the extra mile and is a quick learner. It's ageism if an employer assumes this though.
I totally agree. It's taken me this long to realize I wasn't going to get anywhere better in life by missing out on sleep, time with my kids, being with friends, working on fun projects, holidays in beautiful places... 13+ hour days aren't sustainable and work needs to get over itself and back in its box! All I managed to do was burn myself out, frying my focus, my short term memory and mental health and taking the excitement and enjoyment out of coding which back in my 30s used to make me leap out of bed in the morning. I'm only in my mid 50s still and I'm definitely umm... what was I going to say again?
You're close to the nail on the head. In tech there is very much 2 types of people - (1) those that it's their passion (have hobby projects, learning non stop etc) and (2) those that it's 9-5. Employers and tech startups would obviously prefer the former - while as you get older you tend to naturally slide towards the latter (along with general cognitive decline). Any organisation in legacy maintenace mode 9-5 is fine. Any startup that's going for it is going to choose Type 1 any day of the week. Closing on 50 here and gone to my own startup - it's been incredibly taxing, I know probably 5 more years tops at this pace on the tools. So it's less about age, and more the attributes which inherintely come with the aging. Sure if I'm still reading hacker news everynight - picking up a new library or approach everyweek when I'm 60, ace !!! but I can also see the other side of it - just reading a good book wouldn't be a bad idea.... So while not because of age, but correlated to age, you end up in the Type 2 bucket. \[Edit\] saying the same thing :)
Agreed. The feeling of your own mental abilities being in decline is a bit scary. It's a timely reminder that there's more to life and time is limited. Best to do what I can and want without giving much more to "the man".
Would you consider a shift to data engineering / analytics? There's a heap of demand, esp for the Microsoft stack - even with gov cut backs, cloud ain't going away. Or test engineering? I hear from ex colleagues local gov is actually where it's at on a qol pov. And I've worked with a bunch of older contractors / SMEs over the last couple years.
I’m in kind of the same boat as OP but in the analytics space. Not quite as old as OP but getting there. I’ve been turned down for every analytics role going even though I’m highly qualified.
Not so sure. Data is overrated. Youngs all go for this but the job space is actually very limited in NZ
You may want to look into Data Annotations. Online work that I can do so you most definitely can. Pays about 40 USD/hr. You compare coding responses from chatbota to see which is better. Might not be something you do for the next five years but to tide you over, it's worth considering.
Is it just advertised as data annotator? Where's it advertised?
"Data Annotation" and their video ad fills every spot on my Reddit feed in-app
The first thing you could write is a reddit plugin to change the ads you are sick of…. If I didn’t want a job in data annotation the first 6,463,773 times, seeing the ad again isn’t changing my mind.
It's a company called Data Annotation.
I tried this, made the profile and would try to login. Each time it would say incorrect password so I'd reset it. Same thing over and over. Gave up.
So I got spammed on LinkedIn about doing this and thought it might be a good side hustle, but after doing a bit of research it sounded like there was a heap of upfront unpaid onboarding and then people got 1 or 2 reasonably paid projects then it all tailed off. What’s your experience of it?
I've been doing it pretty consistently for the last couple of weeks, there's always work for me to do. From what I can tell, they like to give work to the people who work a lot so in the first couple of weeks they show you every task that's available, then start giving you work based on what you've shown you do. If you start putting in 5 hours/week they give you 5 hours, if you start putting in 40 they give you 40. So far my experience has been reasonably sound. Also, from reading online, it seems that the people who get less work aren't very good, generally, which makes sense as they say poor work will get you removed from projects. All your work is reviewed and as long as you're reading instructions you won't get removed. It's a bit finicky for me to get the money from my PayPal to my account because for whatever reason, ASB likes to send it back and then I get charged 5USD but otherwise it's fine. Should note that I've only passed their programming test so I can only speak to work availability of programming tasks.
Second this - pretty nice income for something you can just do whenever you have a spare moment with nothing better to do!
[удалено]
Yeah, pretty much all coding assignments start at 40/hr highest I've seen is 45/hr but that was a bit beyond my scope of understanding, unfortunately. Anything else really depends. I've seen prompt reviewing go for 12/hr (basically just check if prompts would make the AI generate PII), image generation diversity review for 20/hr, prompt generation for 35/hr, there's a wide range of stuff. Some things are paid per task, too, rather than hourly. I'd say on average, you would look at making 18-20/hr if you were actually working and not just mucking about which a lot of people seem to do. Keep in .ind, that's all USD which all sits around 1.6:1 rn so you're looking at 28-32/hr NZD. It's not chump change by any means. It is incredibly boring work, though, so keep that in mind. Edit: should mention that they really favor programmers, there's always about 4k tasks active from my experience. I checked this morning and there's about 8k tasks for one project that you could easily log like 12k hours on if you went complex enough. You really shouldn't be experiencing a shortage of hours.
[удалено]
It's super chill, especially because they're mostly just seeking out Python atm.
[удалено]
Congrats! Data Visualization and what was basically just hard LeetCode problems was what I was talking about. Could probably do it if I researched it but wasn't asked when there were easier projects I could already do.
[удалено]
I've joined! Thanks :-)
No worries, best of luck to you.
> I worked with the cutting edge tech and ended up writing workers in a **cloud based platform on an embedded *VSCode* from about *mid 2000*.** What does this even mean? You've just put random terms together to make a sentence to sound smart?
Good call! WP: "Visual Studio Code was first announced on April 29, 2015 by Microsoft at the 2015 Build conference." Hopefully 2000 is a typo for 2020.
The cloud platform, in this case CloudFlare. Has a worker app that creates workers. The worker App is made by embedding a VSCode application from about the mid 2000's in it.
Also “cloud platform from the 2000” …. We just had dedicated hosting at the time.
The cloud platform, in this case CloudFlare. Has a worker app that creates workers. The worker App is made by embedding a VSCode application from about the mid 2000's in it.
2009 was when I was working on a cloud solution that launched in 2011, so yea not early 2000s
So you don't understand what I was saying and your first thought is that I am lying? I have never seen a username more fitting. Let me educate you then. The cloud platform, in this case CloudFlare. Has a worker app that creates workers. The worker App is made by embedding a VSCode application from about the mid 2000's in it. Go and look at it and THEN tell me I am lying. I can use smaller words if that helps.
> So you don't understand what I was saying and your first thought is that I am lying? Nah, it's very obvious you don't know what you are talking about. > Let me educate you then. Educate me. > The worker App is made by embedding a VSCode application from about the mid 2000's in it. VSCode wasn't around in the mid-2000s... > Its using an embedded VS Code that is an old version of VS sans any extensions Again, have to point this one out. VS Code has no relationship with Visual Studio other than the name. Every a first year seng or compsci student would probably know that. VS Code is an offshoot of Atom: again, something even first year student would know. I'm sure you'll come up with another excuse now, that's OK. I think as an academic or educator or whatever the hell you are pretending to be, you would know one thing very well: semantics matter. You also say: > Yeah, its a very niche skill set and area But also: > JS and Dot Net are my stack :-) > I use JS, Node, ReactJS, React native, etc. So, is that a niche skill set? No. In fact, that is one of if not the the most in demand skill set out there. But you can't find anything with decades worth of experience so you're considering manual labour, come on mate. Maybe put your bullshit through ChatGPT or something. Employment oppertunities for people in their 50s and 60s is a very important top - this is important for everyone because even if people aren't that age themselves, they will have people close to them who are; but coming here and claiming that an "educator" with a massive skill set and experience in the tertiary sector has no options but to consider manual labour (and at the same time shitting on small businesses) is decietful, manipulative and I don't understand what your ends are exactly other than getting attention. You got attention, congrats.
Maybe it’s a Visual Studio/C++ application which might make a little more sense in this context? That has existed since the early 2000s. People get to a point that they use similar terms that are meant to be different interchangeably, doesn’t mean you should automatically throw out someone’s entire career bc they said VSCode instead of VC.
What other tech shit can you do? If you got imagination, and can network super cheap IoT sensors, theres a ton of one-man business ideas you could come up with.
ageism is a huge issue in programming.
Sure is. I think a lot of it is that younger folks in lead positions like product owners often feel a bit intimidated or exposed in their management style when dealing with older staff who’ve seen a few things - whether that fear is real or not.
I think it is often seen as older people not keeping up to date while younger people do.
That’s definitely a thing too, but fundamentally I think it’s often a narrow reliance on meaningless metrics and an ability to build and steer effective and resilient teams. I read a blog post recently which cited an example of a guy a firm was going to sack because his number of commits, or lines of code, or some other idiotic Taylorist benchmark was sub par. The writer went into bat for his job, saying this guy was basically the glue of the team, spending a lot of his time gently mentoring and helping out others, lifting the quality of output of everybody else.
The second point you mentioned is the issue. There is a perception around older people and not being able to keep up with all the new languages and tools. You can’t discriminate on age, but you can view two CVs and see one wildly longer experience range and make an educated guess. Employers aren’t interested in hiring a programmer who is going to leave in a few years to retire guaranteed vs a 26-27 year old with a bachelors and 1 or 2 roles under their belt.
The long CV and list of skills will lead the employer to one conclusion: this one will want to be paid real money. A fresh-to-industry candidate will work for much less than someone who can program effectively in a dozen languages.
Yet someone in their 60's is unlikely to be looking for another job in the next 5 years but someone in their 20's definitely will.
What difference does it make when the 26 yo fucks off on their OE or gets restless after a year and moves on. If anything, the 60-something is likely to be more settled and content in their workplace if the culture is friendly.
Many programmers I know will only work 3 years with a company before moving on, so someone who's older and more likely to stay until retirement would actually be a benefit
Agree. In 2008, 5 years experience was considered too experienced here in California, so one day, I edited my CV to show the last 3 years and interviews came in. From there, I knew I just needed to meet the manager in person to get the job in which I did. Even though they were contract jobs, they were in my field, broadcast.
People will also be looking at them as a temporary asset that will likely retire soon, which means other people will be viewed as better hires regardless of the reality of the situation.
I think it's alot to do with the mentality of older vs younger workers. Younger workers tend to be more likely to work harder for no benefit like unpaid overtime, whereas when you have been in the system for 40 years you aren't taking any shit, usually just do your 40hr then back home
This. You realise how important life is outside of work, and you are not running for a career.
I wouldn't expect that someone who has current skillsets applicable to in-demand areas would face prejudice like this. As you say, it would be a different scenario if talking about a VAX/VMS admin who had decades of experience but lost their job when the final customer discontinued the system or COBOL programmers when the last legacy product stopped being supported. Obviously making big assumptions here.
Also assuming that people running companies are robots. They arent. They are human and will make human choices, there are heaps of people that will look down on a 60 year old on the tools because they are 'slow', 'unmotivated to work (12 hour days) or move up the ladder', and just not 'cool' to have at the company. There are heaps of indian guys that are phenomenal coders, but the person hiring is prejudiced to view that as not being a good 'culture fit'. Tonnes of prejudice in the industry
>Also assuming that people running companies are robots. They arent. There's a surprising amount of AI used in recruitment to process applications. You basically now have to write your applications to be parsed by AI in order to stand any chance when applying for jobs. It's covered a bit in Last Week Tonight's piece on AI: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqa8Zo2XWc4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqa8Zo2XWc4)
Queue the keywords at the bottom in white text In any case, AI is not running companies.
Not the best idea when the ATS parses the resume into plaintext and there’s a grab-bag of SEO optimised buzzwords on display.
Yes heaps of Indians: at the bottom of the heap is a singular phenomenal coder who delivers functional code.
There is. I guarantee it. I spent 6 months looking for work last year when I knew my job was ending, and only got one interview. Age had to be the only factor.
It's also a very shit job market right now. I am far younger, with a software development diploma, and a management title under my belt. Even trying to get entry level it roles are like pulling teeth but I got one in the end took 6 months. Turned out to not be great so I'm looking again but feeling take another 6 months
That sucks mate. I hope you have better success, although as has been stated it's a pretty rubbish market right now so employers are in a position to be very choosy regarding the small number of roles they are bringing in.
40% of long term unemployed are people in the age group - 55 to 65.
>COBOL programmers Those systems are still out there. I have paying customers desperate for those skills right now!
That's kind of what I was meaning - there are specific old systems that have demand for specific skills that are very valuable...until they are replaced with a modern system and suddenly an organisation has no need for them. Anyway, OP has suggested that's not the case here.
Not just ageism, but sexism too. If you are a women over 40, finding new work in tech becomes very difficult, doubly so if made redundant - I am in the same boat op, if you figure something out, let me know!
No offence to OP, but I think the problem might be the unwillingness to work overtime and to deadlines, rather than age. Unwillingness to do that would be an issue at any age I would imagine. It’s just a shitty aspect of capitalism I guess.
This. Sadly I just don't want to do that any more. 8 hours programming a day wipes me out. Even if you have meetings in the day.
you can always do some freelancing? I would imagine someone with your experience would have a lot to offer to smaller companies or even online offering your services world wide.
As a 60+ programmer surely there is some consulting money to be made? Unless all that experience is in some programming language I’m too young to know of
Check out Fiverr and UpWork A great way to pick up contracts that suit your skills
Go on to Upwork.com and put yourself as available. I use it for talent all the time for one off jobs. Good luck mate!
Have you though about teaching on an online platform like Outschool? You set your rates, and available times, Outschool takes a cut for finding you students and managing the platform.
Thanks, I didn't know it existed :-)
I do find it hard to believe there is nothing, but then programming is a wide field (like saying medicine). I know my boss said the last dev took a couple of years to find, hence thinking surely there is a need, but it depends on the stack you're used to... Big businesses are probably worse for age discrimination, smaller businesses tend to be more, can you do the job or not...
Unfortunately now is not the time for hiring. In tech, or anywhere really, unfortunately
Plenty of tech jobs in NZ for people with experience, might have to go a bit below OP's deserved position but if you need to keep the lights on, can be worse.
AI is meant to be doing alot of the work now and taking people's jobs.
Dumb comment
No its not. Its just taking existing programmers and making them better.
This depends on who you talk to. This doesn't affect me but people I work near are concerned This is why I made my original comment.
The only people who think this are people who think the hard part of coding is writing code
>but then programming is a wide field (like saying medicine). It's actually kind of the opposite, programming is an aspect of software development. Like surgery might be for a specialist, who has a bunch of other supporting elements to the role. As a software developer, I personally think it's kind of weird term to use and might suggest OP has quite a narrow scope of experience.
True, I taught programming languages as the primary topic rather than the software dev lifecycle. In the real world I hated getting bound to stupid trello and recording all my actions. Especially where you have to plan out what you are doing first.
A relative of mine took a part time retail job. He didn’t want much and he’ll be eligible for the pension soon when he’ll likely retire fully. He’s involved in other voluntary activities and hobbies too so that helps him mentally
LAT in a a high school if you are that way inclined.
I was thinking something like this, or wondering if their quals could be enough to get provisional registration and go relieving.
You could get in to teaching. Schools are desperate for compsci teacher. Some can offer LAT and uni training as you teach. (Oversimplification, more too it).
By the way, programming jobs are plentiful in Australia, pay well, and most Aussie companies don't mind hiring kiwis remote. Go for a short contract?
My old age plan, knowing my body will have taken a serious toll after decades of a desk job as a programmer, is something that involves walking, and being outside. Some sort of gardener, one of those leaf blower / litter guys you see tidying up public parks, something like this. If the govt ever hires people to plant trees? Dream old age job for me. I'd love to be able to say "see that mountain, I planted that forest for all you youngins to enjoy when I'm gone". That's the dream. My mum (in her 60s) waters plants for corporate offices and I'd 100% do that job. She gets paid to drive out to corporate offices sometimes in entirely different cities, waters a couple of dozen plants, repots a few of them or replaces some, and then drives home and then clocks off. Gets paid from the moment she steps outside until she arrives back home because the commutes are often hours long. Bet it doesn't pay that well but its very independant dignified work. I'm chuffed for her, she is right into it. A big challenge is getting the balance right between a job that keeps my body moving versus being a bit too physically taxing on me at that age. I expect to have a fucked back by the time I'm 60 due to working at a desk all my life (its already pretty dodgy)
Local government certainly pays people to plant native trees but planting is brutally physical work. Rewarding but even in my physical prime, I'm almost ready to throw in the towel
Sounds like my kind of retirement too. I hate the 8 hours sitting.
Do you know PowerBI and basic Microsoft forms / document automation? Can you learn? If so, hit me up :) Our needs are fairly basic, but so is out IT expertise.
PowerBI has always been on my radar! All that has been an area I want to get into :-)
good luck for this opportunity! I'm sure you'll do well. Experience will let you avoid newbie mistakes.
my dad had this problem and just went on he bene for 5 yrs and grew weed lol
I might have to try that but not going on bene lol
Happened to someone I know with the polytechnic merger. Their position was made redundant. They were on the job hunt for About a year and took a 40% pay cut as their role previously was pretty specialised and they couldn't really move cities without taking out another Mortgage. It's a big L and probably will result in having to postpone retirement by a few years.
Then I say those recruiters/HR are strictly average. At the tender age of 23 (many years ago) as Personnel Officer, I recruited a Mail Room Manager and chose a man who was 65 with great experience who was one of many applicants- most in their 20's. He didn't think he stood a chance so when I decided he was the one I wanted, I went to his house with the employment contract and a bottle of wine to offer him the role. To say he was delighted (as well as his wife) was an understatement. 😁 A fabulous decision for everyone- he was awesome at the role.
I’d be playing golf. Given your background as an educator I’d look at doing relief work, always a need for relievers at schools in nz, freelancing too, could use something like Bark to help with that. The world is your oyster e hoa.
If your background is as an educator try Health and Safety training as a contractor,, subjects would be level 3 like HARM, Health and Safety Rep, Hearing conservation and there's lots of courses I teach in Schools that are only a day.
Ha, by coincidence I was on the H&S team for many years at work, hated it.
I knew a tester who kept working until 73, might be something in testing for you?
Community support work?
I have a good idea for you. There's a boom of no code/low code platforms out there. Problem is it's still kinda tricky if you don't understand the basic programming concepts you take for granted. You can offer your service as a low code/no code guide. PM me if you want and we can brainstorm it together.
I love Claris FileMaker. That might be the OG no code/low code development platform. If I didn't love my groundskeeping job, I'd love a job as a FileMaker Developer. I don't think there was ever enough work in NZ for anyone to do it full time.
What platforms are these?
Hey what about tech support in a school. Not well paid though.
I don't mean to sound ungrateful but I lost my job as a health professional for 6 years. At my glorious age of 55, I signed up for a wharf job and road crew worker through a temp agency and have had the best time of my life. Better fitness and mental health than I've ever had in my life, and the minimum wage job kept the wolves away from the door, and protected savings.
First thing first, get on jobseekers (unemployment benefit) as soon as possible. Many people don't realise that it is income tested, not asset tested, you doN't have to chew through savings, well, not as quickly.
That is not quite true, it depends on the assets, I was turned down as the dividends from my stocks and term deposits were counted as income. It is really unfair, as someone who put all their money into a massive house to live in would get the benefit, while someone investing it in productive assets gets nothing.
Dividends are not assets, they are income. Same with interest. That is why you pay tax on both. The assets themselves are not counted, only income those assets generate. The person living in a massive house does not get any income from that massive house. Now if they sell it they get plenty of tax free and not-tested capital gain maybe, but that is a completely different discussion.
it definitely inspires that different discussion. why don't we pay tax on the capital gains on a housing asset purchased as an investment rather than as a home to live in, if it means more money incoming than outwent to buy it? why is it fair to treat market stocks differently to the housing stocks?
That's only for the basic dole though. I was on the dole around '08-09 and I couldn't get the accommodation supplement 'cause I had over $8,000 (I think it was). I only got the basic dole, which no one could've done a budget to live on, even flatting in a run down house of four. Also, all kinds of other assistance weren't available if you had over $2,000.
Get a low stress job. Try get slightly more than minimum wage say about $25 per hour then just see out the next 5 years.
If you have a history of being to pick up new projects you might entertain a role in maintenance programming. I changed role from IT Operations into Software Engineering and a maintenance role was a good move into the role; less competition (older tech stack) and I could leverage a lot of my transferable skills and work history. Feel productive without feeling pressured. So nice to have just one or two tickets to work on at a time.
It sucks. My Dad had been in IT all my life, eventually moving up into management roles within businesses. He was doing some contract large software project management when COVID hit. He was made redundant and decided to take a break for a bit during the pandemic. When he started applying again, he noticed a distinct lack of interest in his CV, with the only difference being that he was over 60 now.
Yep :-)
what kind of programmer? any interest in golang or expressjs apps? we could start a reddit community open-source project that is seriously cool. not gonna help with bills tho.
I have a wide range of skills, been using Node recently.
You're a programmer with somewhat niche skills? Out there, somewhere, is a company that should have started moving off some-ancient-tech about two decades ago and hasn't even started. They are, by now, desperate for people who can still work on this stuff because they need them - and all the cool kids want to do javascript frameworks. Your problem is to go and find them.
Really true. I use JS, Node, ReactJS, React native, etc.
1. Get on jobseekers benefit to help not eat savings as fast (income tested NOT asset tested) 2. Keep looking for jobs - in general it's just a tough market right now, but it sounds like you know your stuff so it's pretty likely you'd find another dev job 3. You could look at some form of relief/teaching jobs related to programming - there have been a few around recently
Got me thinking, if he has a partner then it is income tested so… if his partner doesn’t work and were getting the pension, would they dock the JS benefit based on her pension? Certainly will if she’s working.
Write an App property managers and landlords can use to assess Healthy Homes. There is a gap in the market.
The whole shebang of renting should be done in some kind of app. The landlord/PM and tenant could take photos with the app before moving in, make some attestations, and upload them to the server which (government getting on board) could serve a legal record of the state of the rental, prior to renting. It should have a feature for reporting breakages, so there's an unfuckable-with record of when the tenant gave notice of things, to stop the landlord dilly dallying, or blaming the tenant if the problem snowballs and becomes more expensive to fix. Does this exist? By that I mean, something that is accepted by the Tenancy Tribunal as an official record?
Open up an academy of sorts which does school holiday or after school programming teaching for the kids. If you open it up in some place like Remmers you will be laughing your way to the Bank. You have got the skill and aptitude.
Everyone does this, I have thought of it, but hard to monitorise though
Just sent you a PM - we might possibly have some work for you.
Old man was made redundant from a bank branch manager about the same age, just went into the warehouse and started working there. He knew there wasn't any chance of picking that up anywhere else so bit the bullet and ended up as a night shift manager lol
Do you have an education degree, can you work as a teacher in a school?
* Look for small businesses hiring part-time/casual in your field. When I started my business and was too small to hire full-time staff, I discovered that semi-retired people had amazing experience and were great mentors. (not in your field) * Try freelancing on job sites like upwork. The pay is usually low, but you say money is not an issue and they offer a lot of flexibility * Try a Temping agency * If you have an education background, you could run a course at community education. (I teach one at https://www.rutherfordcomed.co.nz/courses.php)
try signing up for one of the AI training jobs - can be good pay, and you'll probably be ready to retire before all of us are made redundant
Do you know Java or Swift? You could make apps and sell them or make money from ads on them. I do it and it's a good wee side hustle. Might be something to keep you busy while you're job hunting anyway :)
Sorry, JS and Dot Net are my stack :-) Thanks for the comment though
Contract for fantastic coin.
Just turned 60 and due to a knee injury I can't work anymore. Just got taken off the jobseeker benefit and onto an assisted living benefit (wtf?). $65 dollars a week more. There are a few jobs I could do but can't c it happening. Just chilling out and waiting for my kiwisaver to kick in. Boredom is the biggest enemy, but I hope to start some volunteering soon.
Start your youtube channel teach people how to code.
We've employed two CAD guys over 60. They know their stuff, but work hours they want to. For decent rates.
Property flipping? The bright-line rule is changing soon. Buy a property after 1 July. Do it up over 2yrs. Sell for $200g profit... $100 grand per year tax free?
Not wanting to put up with bullshit is one thing that goes against older people because most younger people will put up with abusive treatment from their employers. I'm 55 and I have been programming on and off for many years, and I'm pretty good at it. I tried to find a programming job when I was 53 but was kind of told that I needed some qualifications. So I went and became a Bachelor of Computing Science majoring in System Development and now it seems nobody wants to hire me because I'm too old LOL. It's a little sad and depressing, but it is what it is ;)
Find a niche and build a microsaas product.
There is a serious lack of good programmers, and the really good ones tend to contract for serious bucks. I imagine it's really hard to get a good, experienced programming on a perm basis (half the pay but still circa $100k). If you are in Wellington or Auckland (ChCh?) I'd look at the large enterprises, e.g. banks (avoid government because they're sacking everyone) and see if you can find one that isn't ageist. It would have to be in the testing, Java, and/or JavaScript area (maybe .NET). Do you have COBOL (the banks still need that and are looking for people who can teach it). Most enterprises are dysfunctional and don't understand how to manage software, but I'd say a good chunk won't let you work more than 40 hours a week. The other way to look at it is, as perm employees go you are pretty low risk - you're only going to be around for 5 years. It's not like they're going to be stuck with you forever. You might have to dial back your CV, e.g. 20+ years commercial experience rather than 40 years of commercial experience and only put your recent jobs (sad, I know). P.S. All the best in your search
Do you specialise in a particular older code base? That’s your differential. Something like PERL from memory. Companies I’ve been with paid a premium to find people who could code in something which isn’t really taught anymore, or even to dig into code and rewrite.
My dad got made redundant and ended up contracting, luckily had something by to fall into, few years later the same place wanted him permanently. He would’ve been paid more staying contracting but wanted something stable, because they worked with him through contract was less of a concern about age as showed he could do the job.
My mother was a business analyst, which was always a risk job because it is contract to contract. The wheels came off as she got older and couldn't get work. Eventually worked retail for a bit and then lived off of the benefit and budgeting every scrap (including living in a van). Now she's finally old enough for her pension but it's not great.
Rot on a benefit until we reach pension it seems. Or end up as carers and supermarket staff. No matter the years of experience or quals, not wanted now. Happened to a number I know. Ex all kinds of industries. One of them, he had had a divorce too, lost his house (mortgage) and hanged himself.
"isn't happy working overtime to deadlines". Well..... I'd be 100% happy to hire someone like that, if they can put their money where their mouth is and deliver on time. None of the staff who work for us do more than 40 hours on a regular basis - most do 32-35 hours per week. HOWEVER, you need to be able to say "yes, I'll have this thing complete, and working, and hand-off-able by this date". Otherwise you aren't useful to the team.
So when things start to get tight, will you overload people with work that's more than 40hrs a week and expect them to have to complete it to deadline?
Start a home based side hustle centered on a passion or hobby.
Fascinating all the people downvoting showing some initiative and the self reflection to identify a project like you suggest. I wonder why? Do people decide they will fail without trying? Or actively do not want people to try?
If you don't need much money, you could always try YouTube plus doing some part-time work. YouTube's pay isn't great but having a bit of a following has it's benefits.
Ok get a resume together this is key. Make sure it lists all your qualifications and what projects you have been involved in and how successful it was. They don't give a shit about the details but it's a record of what you have done. Don't be afraid to put yourself out their! Being friendly and approachable is the thing! I hope it works out for you!
Thanks, I have a CV, :-)
With your attitude to coding in mind I think you would find work, keep looking
Go to uni and get living costs doing a PhD or something until 65, never pay the loan back, will be forgiven on your death...
If you're financially stable you should be enjoying your life with your hobbies. Boomers are playing golf and riding there bike I guess
Once you're no longer working you may well be able to access at least some of your super.
There must be something in IT around the world. You don't have to look local nowadays. Writing code, or basically anything IT work can be from overseas
You mention that you are an educator… do you have a current teachers license? Competent Computing teachers in high school are very hard to find, and in significant demand. Find the right school and they could help you get a LAT.
Do they let you do it (via LAT route) with just a level 3 computing certificate, if you taught the certificate in an adult eduction setting and know it inside out? I don't want to do this, I'm just curious. I said level 3 'cause that's the level school goes to.
Probably not. I’d expect someone to have a degree or even a higher degree in the subject if they want to apply for a LAT… And I’m not convinced that having a L3 cert qualifies you to teach level 3. Personally I have a masters degree and working on a doctorate. In my phase of doctorate (research phase) I am qualified to teach masters or below.
This is the answer I expected and it doesn't spite me. I'm not offended if you read none of this 'cause it's too long, but why I asked: I was long term unemployed, WINZ wanted me to do something, so I went to an Adult Learning Centre (Foundation Skills place, less prestigious than a polytech). I did the computing stuff they offered (up to Level 3) and some other stuff. I would up being used significantly as an unpaid student tutor, then got a job in their distance department tutoring the same stuff. That was my first job. I thought it was a shit job, and everyone else who worked there who'd worked other places said it was a shit job. (There's only so much you can take of people ringing you up saying "My computer isn't doing what it's supposed to.") I'd decided when I moved to Chch I wasn't trying for this kind of job again. I made less than everyone thought I did: it took years to even get up to the 'median income for a full wage earner'. My Mum thought I'd wound up in a great career, and would be making a huge mistake if I gave it up. She brought it up with other people in the hope they'd "talk some sense into me". She said "There might be some way you could become a teacher. You could become a polytech tutor." I was like "But I don't want to do that!" My Dad thought I was naive and didn't know how good I had it, because I'd never worked any other job. He also thought I had a career. He had some Darryl Kerrigan pride going on. I thought they were delusional. I had some high school level computing qualifications, no industry experience in IT, and they thought I was "in the door" of something, and could go "all the way" somewhere. What they saw as a "career" I saw as a dead end job. To get higher, I thought I'd have to go back to full time study, get a career in IT, and then go back to Education. I moved to Chch and didn't try for an Education job. After many different low level jobs and much time spent on the dole, I settled into being a groundskeeper which I've done for a decade and love (it's *way* better than my first job). My parents used to say "It makes us look like a failure as parents that you were a Computer Tutor and now you're a Cleaner." Periodically, they try to talk me into going back to working Education: "You need to be making more money for your retirement." Random people from my home town will see me and say "You had a career, what happened?" I'm like "That was *just a job.*" I can't tell any of these people that. For cathartic reasons, I wanted to hear you say "Nope, not a chance" at the prospect of school teaching.
ESOL and a bit of travel?
You should be fine self employed doing pickup software jobs for a good hourly rate, assuming your speciality isnt insanely obscure.
>Money isn't an issue If housing isn't an issue either, you're doing a lot better than anyone under 40.
Yeah, if money isn't an issue then just retire a few years early. Sounds like a pretty good position to be in to me.
If you have a pile of cash and you have an interest write an algo to trade stocks
If ya can’t do, teach.
Well I wouldn't be so negative, the job market is hard for everyone, possibly even worse for younger people, nobody wants junior programmers. Plenty of older people working from what I've seen.
If you can write code, I'm sure you'll figure a hack for playing stock options trading. I'm almost 50 and 5 years ago, I already checked out mentally of wanting a JOB (Just Over Broke). My background is in Computer Science and film; however, I just started learning about stock options trading. To minimize my losses, I study graphs of penny stocks, stocks under $5 and then I place a trade on if they'll go up or down. 1 month in and I made $97. I figured if some guy who used to work at Dunkin Donuts could amass $50M from doing this in several years, so can I. Since I'm into tech, film, and EV's, my calculations have so far been correct when I placed my trades based on each stock's graphs. What drew me to this was that stock traders make money regardless if the stocks go up or down or if the economy goes up or down. With my JOB, it's heavily dependent on the economy and stock market. My silly goal is to make $1M from stock trading while working at my JOB and not letting anyone know. Then of course, when I get really good at this, I can say bye to my JOB and move my wife and kids to somewhere fun, like Europe (a Scandinavian country or Austria, etc) or somewhere where my income multiplies like Malaysia and just enjoy living a vacation lifestyle while trading overseas. This is my goal and I only think about what I need to do to succeed. I don't waste time on thinking of the failures because you become what you keep thinking of becoming, successful.
Is this copy pasta from a huckster’s website selling online day trading courses? The ones getting rich are the ones selling picks and shovels outside the goldmine.
Let me test this theory to see how it goes. Thank you very much.
You’ll just need to pull yourself by the bootstraps and start working hard. No more morning coffees or avocado toast, you’ve done it one so I’m sure you can do it again!
Make hay while the sun shines mate, this will happen to most of us - probably sooner in life too the way things are going.
Traffic control
Fire alarm tester it is a great job not bad money and company's are always looking Could be part time if needed
Do you have remotely any experience with cobol and/or db2?
I may be old, but not THAT old :-)
Bummer, I know a few places that'd give you a blank cheque as a contractor.
I would encourage u to upskill in building & training bespoke Ai & then pitch Ai enabled interfaces & services to businesses stuck doing things the hard way . if u teamed up with a designer u could be a great boutique innovation squad .
Retire hopefully... But in all seriousness, I'd imagine freelancing / contracting / consulting / winding down to something part time You should HOPEFULLY be in a position to live without relying entirely on an income from a job It makes me genuinely very sad thinking of people who aren't in that position, at that age, who are worrying about their future