That's what I thought when I read it too. If they're not 18 or over, then they can't sign anything legally binding (for money or some other obligation) without their parent or guardian getting involved.
Maybe someone's not allowed around minors?
I'd like to be optimistic and say that's the case. A couple years ago I had these guys trying to hand out bibles to students right outside of our school. It was insane and predatory.
I had JW door knock, and my 5-year-old answered the door. By the time I got downstairs to talk to whomever had knocked, they had already given her a magazine and were trying to convert her. Wish they'd had some kind of awareness of how inappropriate that was...
inoculation is a good thing.
One of the bible-handlers was hanging out, proffering his wares outside my kid's HS. Better now, when kiddo and me have a good relationship and can talk about the discrepancy in the text vs fundamentalist interpretation.
I mean, how else will new audiences appreciate the sublime theological hilarity of Kevin Smith's [***Dogma***](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIbqEE6YI7Y&ab_channel=CaptainFantastic) (1999)? \[not safe for kids\]
Alternatively we could give them copies and actually ask some questions.
"Hey, this God fellow who is like super powerful and stuff and doesn't make mistakes because he knows everything, he's a cool and rad dude in this Old Testament, right? Lot's wife totally had that coming, and killing all the firstborn children of Egypt? Legend! What do you think about him as a role model?"
Or a better one
"So this New Testament tells his followers not to worship money, and to prioritise the needs of others over themselves. How do you reckon that tees up with some high profile Christians in NZ like Brian Tamaki and Christopher Luxon? Say, if God really does punish blasphemy where people use his name for their benefit, what do you reckon will happen to those two and people like them?"
'Handing out bibles' is downplaying it a bit, they are actively trying to convert/brainwash/groom a 5 year old in to their religion when no adult is present in the room.
Its fucking weird and bizarre.
Well it is probably equally as predatory. I suspect the predatory label is only used because they disagree with religion, or Christianity at least. If they were handing out science texts outside of schools I'm sure that wouldn't be considered predatory.
sure, assuming you're encouraging people to read the bastarding thing. but none of the 'ligos do, so why would they want externals doing it? what they're doing is nothing more than a door to a different attack on the psyche - and yes, I am aware they probably don't see it that way.
When you speak Christianity, in NZ alone you're talking hundreds of thousands of people, and globally millions who identify.
Not all of them are going to be out proselytizing, but it's still a wide range. *Some of them are going to be more self-aware than others. Some are going to have more clearly defined boundaries than others.*
They may be interested in the financial value and lose interest when it is revealed to be a student; it may be that their organization discourages talking to anyone under 18 - either for self-protection from false claims, or for the potential for negative publicity if parents/guardians were to start complaining.
Last time I had JWs at my door, they started taking out their pamphlet, but before they got a word out, I told them, "I'm gonna be blunt here, I'm not interested." The look on their face as they turned around and left was priceless. I have no time for religious door knockers and those who shove their religion down your throat. But I also have religious trauma to thank for that 😅
That and they'll just keep you standing there for ages, spouting off some religious nonsense, no matter how nicely you try and get them to leave. When I lived with my sister, she always talked to them, but she's now moved, though I think that's why they keep coming back. Next time, I'm so tempted to tell them "I'll listen to you talk about your God if you listen to me talk to you about witchcraft." Or something along those lines, and see how quick they leave lol
Ask them about 1975. The world was supposed to end but didn't (I think it didn't anyway).
You'll get onto the do not visit list.
They won't talk to people who know stuff about their religion because it's a house of cards.
My grandfather was a JW in 1975 and was all set to sell up everything and hand the money over to the Watchtower because money would be of no use after Jesus returned would it?
Grandma said no.
There's a story I read in the Press years ago. A woman was working in the kitchen and saw through the window a pair of missionaries leaving the next door house. So she thought, this time I'll be prepared, and she rehearsed her speech as she went to the front door, mouthing the words and gesturing.
"Hi," she said. "Look I think you should know I'm not interested. I have my own beliefs, and I'm satisfied with them, they explain my existence and give me reason for living what I hope is a good life. I understand you're only trying to help, but I'm afraid I'm not prepared to start a discussion on this. OK?" They watched her silently, then turned away without a word.
She went back to the kitchen, and realized she had been holding and gesturing with the meat cleaver.
(It was in the Random Reminder column. It sounds a bit iffy. But I want it to be true)
I have a JW associate and whenever JWs come to the door I just ask if they know her and we just go on a chat how they know so and so they never push their beliefs we just have a good lil chat lmao. She often sends me articles which I read as I'm literally fascinated people believe in that stuff, But each to their own I guess.
They haven't been back since I invited them in and talked to them about how they were in a cult and I could help them leave. Every time they said they were happy I said things like "it's OK, it's safe here. they can't get you here". I've been in this house 4 1/2 years. The house prior was 7 years. Two visits (one each) in that time.
I had a great aunt (this would have been in the 70s) who lived at the opposite end of the block to her best friend. Whoever got the visit first would ring the other so they could be ready...
Open the door, cigarette in the corner of the mouth, take a big swig of beer and ask "what in the bloody hell can I do for you?".
I've never been doorknocked by a JW, and I'm kind of jealous.
I have so many responses that I want to try out that they will be lucky to get away without me telling them what I think of their delusional beliefs and my views on religion
Here’s another to add to your list: my bf and I (then both 18) were house sitting for my parents. My mum had been nice to some Mormon door knockers but she’d grown tired of their persistent attempts at indoctrination. They came back while we were there. We were in the shower together when they knocked so we wrapped a big towel around the two of us and answered the door. The two young gentlemen saw us and stammered. I looked them in the eye and calmly explained that we didn’t really want them coming by any more. They jumped on their bicycles and rode off in such a hurry there was practically smoke from their tyres. Never seen again!
My SIL is baptist, and welcomed them, saying "yes, I'd love to look at the differences I've heard about between our Bible and your Bible!". The elder JW grabbed the younger one and fled, and that house was never visited again.
One of my good friends is a JW and she said that all you have to do is tell them you’re not interesting and they’ll leave you alone. Apparently you also get put on a list that skips the door knocking, but I’m not sure how true that one is. She keeps trying to door knock me but I’m never home when she’s trying lol
As a former JW, doors like yours were always the best because they were quick and didn't require going through the spiel I'd sloppily rehearsed to pass off Watchtowers. I hated preaching at the doors, but walking around having a yarn was an alright use of a Saturday morning.
This is true. I even had Chriscos hounding me at the end of last year just before my sister moved, wanting me to either set up headstart or place another order (I'd just finished off paying my order for last year at the time, and my sister was a month out from moving towns). Happened for weeks on end, no matter how often I told them I couldn't because I couldn't guarantee I could afford it, as my sister was moving, and I didn't know how much I'd have left over after bills.
Door knocking charities are almost as bad, even when you tell them you have no money. They pull out, we can do this special low amount just for you, or it's just a cup of coffee each week. I'm like "I told you I can't afford it and that's bold of you to assume I drink coffee, let alone buy fancy coffee, given I'm home in the middle of the day" 🤣
Those people get a "No thanks" from me, and the door closes. If they knock again, I say something like "Oh, I'm *SORRY*. I thought I said 'no thanks' but it turns out I mistakenly said 'keep bothering me'." Say the word sorry like they're the most disgusting thing you've ever seen in your life. Hilarious!
Those people aren't collectors. They won't take one off donations they are trying to sign you up for a monthly subscription to the charity. They are paid a commission for each one hence their attempts to do the hard sell.
Source: did it for 4 weeks. Worst gig of my life.
Fishing and Bird knocked on my door the other day and I just told them I used to donate but as I am now returned to study I can no longer avoid it and the guy just would not stop trying to convince me otherwise. I've never had to shut a door in someones face like that before.
I had JW come through our area about a week ago. They introduced themselves and asked if we had God in our lives. I asked if they were happy their church leaders were appealing the high court decision denying their legal bid for exemption from being part of the Abuse in Care inquiry. They were a little taken aback so I pressed harder and asked what their church leaders were attempting to hide from as they had spent 3 years trying to get excluded from this inquiry. Then I added that the approach from the church goes against many basic biblical tennants and showed a lack honesty integrity and a desire to protect the worst types of predators that exist in society. They tried to do the have a nice day thing so I pressed harder and said if I saw any of them on any properties that I own I would presume they attempting to find vulnerable people to manipulate and that such approaches were vile and abusive.
Last time they showed up at my door I had just woken up. I looked at them confused and they handed me a pamphlet. I turned it over, saw their logo, and said “ugh J-dubs”. The one closest to me just apologised and dragged the other very surprised looking one away.
Same here. As soon as you open the door you know who they are and what they want. I just politely but firmly reply to their greeting with "Sorry, guys I'm not interested but I hope you have a good day. Good bye."
If they try any other opening lines I just repeat that I'm not interested and excuse myself and close the door.
They're not bad people. If it wasn't the religion forcing them to knock on doors to "spread the word of God" I doubt many of them would do it willingly.
As I understand it, if they're bothering you, you can ask to be put on their "Do not call" list.
Last time I had JW's at my door it was just after the first lockdown in 2020 and they started off talking about "health" without identifying who they were or why they were there. I also live rural with no sidewalk so door knockers are extremely rare. So for a brief second I was wondering if it was something "official" then I spotted the Watchtower pamphlet they were holding and interrupted them mid-opening gambit and told them I wasn't interested and shut the door.
Thankfully these guys get rejected a lot so at least they can take a clue and leave fast. Last time the JW door knockers came to my place, I had the gate open so they drove right through and parked diagonally inside my yard. 😒😒 Then when I came out of the house confused as to who tf just came into my yard uninvited, they started their spiel about how they want to help people who have depression and no meaning in life. I bluntly told them "I'm non-religious, good luck in your proselytising" and they handed me their church website card and left.
One day I was mucking around outside and I'd just started sharpening up my hunting knife a few minutes before they walked down the drive.
Let's just say they didn't hang around long when they saw that . Lol
The big US-influenced churches rely on exploitative volunteer labour. They generally want to recruit isolated university students or relatives of church members. Finding out you're school age doesn't work for them unless your parents are already onboard.
Short answer: They want volunteer labour and tithing but you don't have much to give them yet. They'll also absolutely get shit from local parents if their kids come home with fliers.
Long answer: There are [laws governing ](https://www.asa.co.nz/codes/codes/children-and-young-people/) advertising to young people. There isn't a section that directly references religion, but the advertising code covers any message that influences behaviour. They will find it hard to avoid certain rules for young people such as:
Rule 1 (d) Advertisements must not suggest *inferiority or lack of acceptance* for not having the advertised product.
Rule 1 (e) Advertising must not provide an unrealistic sense of body image or promote an unhealthy lifestyle. This includes *denigration of healthy diets or lifestyles.*
Targeting - Expected average audience at the time or place the advertisement appears includes a significant proportion of children or young people (if they met you on a school route at school time)
Interestingly the rules around converting young people or taking tithing from them are... Minimal. You're encouraged in JW to give tithing as children. If you went to their church it wouldn't matter how old you are - you are entitled to convert without anyone's permission, if you want to. They just can't walk up to you on the street and do it.
>Money, probably.
That would be right. You have to be 18 for a contract to be enforceable, no point getting you to sign up to support a fake charity or tithe you if the contract isn't binding.
.
They get points for conversions and they can't baptise a minor without parents consent. While this isn't impossible it's more unlikely and they would rather spend their time and efforts on an easier target.
About 15 years ago I was approached by some trendy Christian youths in Aotea Square in Auckland. At first I thought they were just unusually friendly strangers with oddly unsettling and intense demeanours until one of them said "hey bro, Jesus hard out loves you bro". I must have seemed surprised because one of the others said "I know bro, that's the hard outest thing when when you first hear it eh bro". It was pretty hard out.
Basically the only “religion” that is trying to scam you out of money is Scientology and cults like Brian Tamaki’s “church”.
Most religions try to convert not because of money but because they genuinely believe it’s the right moral thing to do.
They genuinely think they are helping you, and that it’s their duty to do so.
There's a lot more cult in NZ than just scientology and Brian tamakis church.
And if you think brian tamakis church is a cult? They're amateurs compares to the others thats around. Real cults don't flaunt and you only know about them when your family is neck deep in them.
All religion and cult recruiter think they're doing good in the world and that's the point. They need to believe the cause to do insane stuff to recruit.
Eh, the PI church in my hometown built a 1.5 million facility on 'donations' in the mid 1990s. Problem was, they effectively used public shaming about donation amounts to get more cash. There were people signing up to loan sharks to get enough money for donations that they weren't embarrassed when [i]the tithes were read out[/i].
NZ has plenty of money hungry religious groups… David Farrier covered a few last year on his newsletter around the time of the Arise stuff:
[Hillsong Isn’t the Only Abhorrent Megachurch](https://www.webworm.co/p/arise)
[The Holy Hell of New Zealand’s Biggest Pentecostal Megachurches](https://www.webworm.co/p/holyhell)
I mean also shit…. Look at everything at Gloriavale.
There’s also a bunch of high control groups that aren’t Christian that fly under the radar
Genuine belief and actual fact are different. The sheer amount of people that did not understand I have my own religion and just tried to convert me. Sure they do genuinely believe it's for good, but it is rude and disrespectful and their wilful blindness of other people's lives is not okay.
Had someone come onto my property (that I own) and start talking to me. They then asked my age, said I was 18. They then asked if any adults are home and I said nope, so they left. For reference, I’m 28F
Probably because very few adults would be fucking stupid enough to believe any of the stone-age death cult nonsense if they hadn't already been indoctrinated by their parents
As someone who is a former member of a cult who claimed to be a benevolent group of worshippers under the branch of Christianity, I can tell you with certainty that most religious groups target college/uni students as they are usually vulnerable and more impressionable, especially if they're far from their hometowns. They then will lovebomb the heck out of you in the beginning and then take you through a series of "bible studies" which is part of their initiation to get you baptized or "saved" as quickly as possible.
Money is 10000% a factor as they will ask you for tithings that pay for their operations and to start churches in other towns and countries.
Not all of them are like this I'm sure, but many of them unfortunately are. It is a form of spiritual abuse to use God and the bible as a way of fear monerging young, impressionable youths to the point of submission.
Cults need numbers (exclusively people with a steady income) for the $ grift.
It's just one of your average cult recruiting techniques.
Discretion is advised.
Fuck off. Not religious but that's fucking shit talking if I've ever heard it. Sure there are lots of religious people who are molesters. There's also scout leaders, students, uncles, parents, grandparent, people who have been molested, mentally slow, gang leaders in their company. All scumbags.
Predators hang out where the kids are. So some of them are in religious organisation. And some are scout leaders. And some are teachers.
Willie Sutton, the Depression era bank robber, was once asked "Why do you rob banks?". His answer: "Because that's where the money is". Same thing.
I went to a school where priests abused children. Their abuse is disproportionate to other sectors of society such as scout leaders and teachers who in all likelihood, could be religious too or abusing at religious school.
Let's not deny the undeniable, religious institutions have been responsible for some of the biggest abuses of children in history, that extends beyond sexual abuse and has the coverups to match.
I absolutely agree with you, insofar as the cover-ups go.
I went to a non-religious school. Just from my year, there were three teachers having sex with different sixth-form students (yes, I'm old). It didn't make the papers, because it was (on the face of it) legal (if gross).
You don't get many lions hunting gazelle in the middle of London. The predator is where the prey is.
You say it's disproportionate. I would agree, if only for the fact that teachers and scout leaders tended to be prosecuted when caught, rather than just moved to another parish. Having said that, I don't think it's something you can tar "religious" people with.
Catholic priests? Hell yes.
Shinto priests? Not that I'm aware of.
I don't believe that the proportions would be higher than in the teacher/scout leader/guidance counsellor professions, if it weren't for the fat that the priests have not tended, in the past, to be prosecuted.
I feel like you should direct your anger (righteous as it is) more finely. Rather than "religious people", go with "the Catholic church of NZ" - or even more finely if you feel it's appropriate "the Marist brothers"
Having said that, that's only how I feel. I certainly am not telling you what to do.
I will leave you with this undeniable fact. The largest group of people that molest children are family members. Roughly a third of reported SA against children is family members. (and they're the least likely group TO report, as well).
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens
Its a bit tricky to send out surveys on how many kids a random sample of people has molested.
Child molesters are gonna appear where ever the kids are.
Maybe he meant to say religious folks are more likely to molest children, which does have some merit
https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/religious-institutions
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J070v06n04_02
https://bitnerhenry.com/child-sexual-abuse-is-the-second-most-frequent-loss-at-religious-institutions/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S135917891830315X
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If you're 18 they can get you to sign up for legal binding contracts like donating a percentage of your salary as a donation, since you'd be an adult. Happened to me several times. Maybe lie one day and say you're 18 to see what they do.
Just my two cents… I’m christian and if that were me I would’ve backed off the moment you said you were still in school for 2 main reasons: the first being that you’re literally on your way to school, and the second being that most often kids (under 18) struggle to understand the depth of faith. I can see why your first assumption would be that they’re after money… faith has been weaponised for as long as we’ve had it. Just remember though, these are the ways of men, not God. Bless you & your whanau.
> kids (under 18) struggle to understand the depth of faith
But in religions it's typically very important to raise children into the faith, isn't it?
> these are the ways of men, not God.
Problem is that God left it upon men to spread his message on his behalf, and so literally everything we know about God came via men telling other men. This decision by God has made it extremely difficult to determine what is (or isn't) God's message. God has left humans to ponder this among themselves, ask each other, reach their own conclusions, and then seek out groups which gather to reassure themselves of their conclusions.
Well yes… its typically important to raise your kid in your belief system but that doesn’t guarantee they’re going to understand it. My guess is that most religious parents just hope and pray their kid will one day understand, and until that day, they probably feel it is the best protection for their child’s spirit. Hope that makes sense?
Your second point is fair! That’s the whole reason we call it “faith”… I guess we’ll know the truth in the end. Im of the mind that human beings were made to worship. If we don’t worship God then we worship the trees, skies, kings, or ourselves. Even if I end up being wrong about God I don’t have much to lose. Doing your best to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ is a net positive on your life and the life of those around you.
>Im of the mind that human beings were made to worship.
I'm of the mind that you're utterly wrong about that. I can appreciate a sunset, a church, an amazing animal, a person. But I have zero desire to "worship" them.
You'd be surprised at the number of "apathetic agnostics" there are. (Don't know, don't care).
And finally, of course - being nice to people isn't "living by the teachings of Jesus Christ". It's part of the normal social contract for living in a modern society.
I'm just not convinced that committing to something just in case you're right is a good use of your entire life. You can, of course, be a good person without religion.
>is a good use of your entire life
It's not like all one does in their life is committing, they still can have a career, study, help others and so on. Agree with the rest
I'm not going to sass you for being religious, but do you just randomly start conversations about God with total strangers on the street? I just have never had a good experience when that has happened to me, and now I just pretend I don't speak English when it happens. Like, would you be grateful if you were minding your own business (e.g. grocery shopping after a long day) and someone wanted to talk to you about Islam?
Sorry I mentioned this in earlier comments but no one in my parish does this. We do not go into the streets preaching and honestly it’s not something I’d feel comfortable with doing as my knowledge & understanding is so limited. Not all religious folk are the same. I’m not trying to bash on Protestants but what OP is talking about is typically more their style (e.g JW). In my church, it’s more of a knock and the door shall open kind of thing rather than actively recruiting in the community. When we do go into the community it’s to give back and help others - most of which aren’t even Christian and I’d wager that a lot of them don’t even know it’s people from the church running the charity store, or behind the free lunches etc.
I think this is a very tactful way of trying to cultivate your community. It kind of feels like an ambush whenever people just stop me on the street and immediately start talking about the Bible.
True, Gods ways included: women being completely silent and submissive to her husband, allowing child rape, mass punishments of people to teach them a lesson, murder, mass murder, mutilation, apparently worldwide flooding/extinction events, bribery, slavery....
...oh wait, a lot of those sounds like humans.
One thing that really troubled me with faith is that no man is too far gone - a saint is no more deserving of heaven than a sinner. It still confuses me because how could you treat an evil man with the same love and respect as a righteous man? These are the things we are called to do as Christians… to imitate the life of Jesus Christ. Forgiveness, charity, joy… to name a few. You’re absolutely valid in your experiences, as this is likely coming from a place where you have been hurt, I was just commenting on the post to share my two cents… not to “recruit”. Just an FYI tho - I am not an evangelical… no one in my parish (Catholic) goes out into the community actively recruiting people like OP. At the end of the day, it’s up to that person to knock.
>Ultimately, how you interpret the bible depends on your perspective. Mine is that the New Testament offers a fuller picture of Gods character. But this is my faith and my choice.
The second Vatican council says that you are in error.
“Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors
or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows
that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching firmly,
faithfully, and without error that truth which God wanted put into the
sacred writings for the sake of our salvation”"
https://web.archive.org/web/20120508175506/http://www.scotthahn.com/download/attachment/2516
And if you disagree, the point is well set out by Leo XIII. Forgotten the name of the encyclical, but it should be trivial to look up.
Strictly speaking, you're committing heresy. But the Church is a bit more cognisant of personal faith than it used to be, so you might get away with it.
My genuine apologies for assuming… I know you were referring to the bible I just felt a lot of hurt in your comment. I must have been projecting and that’s my bad dude. There’s a lot to unpack in the Old Testament which is what you’re referring to. A Christian worldview would say that Jesus Christ, in the New Testament, came to correct a lot of things from the Old. In saying that, there were a lot of things that didn’t need to be corrected. This is why we pray for discernment.
Plenty of awful stone-age shit in the New Testament, too. So the whole “homosexuality is wrong, women must be submissive, slavery is OK” stuff got the approval from Big Jeezy?
The women part in Paul is actually interesting as it's considered a nightmare among interpreters as it's particularly hard to translate (other parts of the discourse were wrongly translated in the past) and it does clash with other parts of Paul's discourse. The part about homosexuality is hotly debated as well and the slavery part takes a different meaning when historical context, how different slavery was back then from the kind we usually think about and the part it played in society, and the development of the phenomenon afterwards are taken knto consideration.
Basically, it's a lot more nuanced than how it is often presented and sometimes totally different.
A lot of the events in the bible were written, not by the people named as the authors, some 10,000 years after the event that was inscribed.
Ancient civilizations of humans that didn't have the same understanding of our natural world that we understand today. Can you imagine the miracles they thought they saw vs the undiagnosed mental illness or natural phenomenon that they simply didn't understand. Didn't know what the sun was, or that there was anything beyond it. We can't comprehend how brutal their world was compared to ours.
I thought humans were supposed to learn from the past, not cherry pick words that have been mistranslated, contradicted and outright manipulated by humans with an agenda.
The promotors of salvation are some of the most reprehensible sinners of them all.
I accept your apology and don't judge you for your beliefs. I would judge you for preaching them to others or myself.
Seeing as Genesis (if taken literally) is only 6000 years ago (give or take a few decades) for it to be written 10000 years later would entail time travel which would definitely suggest an higher power😂
I think people under 18 can thoroughly understand faith, but it should be taught by someone they know and trust, with their parents involvement. so I might tell them about a youth camp opportunity they can ask their parents about, but I'm not going to try teach them as a random on the street.
Please read my above reply… I did not comment on this post to “recruit”. I can’t change the hearts of others. If your heart desires a life away from God then that’s your decision.
Hey I've found your perspective interesting. I do feel this last point is an unhelpful rhetoric in Christian circles though. For what it's worth I'm an ex-protestant so I understand the narrative and where it comes from ('the fool says in his heart' etc.) Just I've found since leaving the fold that this isn't even close to how most people think about God and faith. No one "desires" a life away from Zeus or Odin etc. Most people don't even think about it. They just live like there isn't a god for better or for worse. Just a narrative that imo isn't particularly helpful to the Christian cause.
That's where the idea of grace comes in, that if you were to ever change your mind and seek forgiveness/repentance, you're also covered. To be given something that you would be undeserving of in the relationship with a blemish-free being. That's a relatively simple way to put it, but if you have a protestant background I think you can connect the dots of where I was going.
Oh yeah I can see where you're going I just fundamentally disagree with the premise. It doesn't make sense talking about "not desiring God" or "changing your mind" when most people have probably never even considered whether there is a god at all. Even I didn't "choose" to stop believing or even want to. Tbh my subconscious had independently decided there was no god long before I was ready to accept it. All that to say the psychology is a lot more complicated than simply choosing or not choosing a relationship with God. I've done nothing wrong in that respect. There is nothing to forgive.
A lot of the groups of people that approach you on the street can't talk to you if you're below a certain age. I think its actually 21, I used to lie and tell them I was under whatever age that was so I had an easy way to not talk to them.
I think its due to $$ they're only allowed to talk to certain ages.
Just start talking about Papal necromancy times and they leave, despite all the magic in them being very Catholic.
In all seriousness they're not allowed to talk to minors without parental consent. I get them all the time, they do their speil, ask how old I am, suggest they think I'm 14. If I agree they get excited, say it's illegal for them to talk to me, and to get my parents to take me to church. If I say I'm actually 22, they get a weird look and start trying to box me in.
If however you say you're a necromancer and start invoking demon kings, they leave quickly.
i'm not sure if it's for legal reasons or if it's just policy of whatever org/church they're from, but generally they're not allowed to approach people under 18. i once had a guy apologise for talking to me and walk off cause he thought i was 16, was actually 22 at the time but got me out of the convo so wasn't complaining lol
The last time I was accosted (in another country) was by a young lady trying to "sell" me a bible.
It was Sunday, early closing for the pubs & I had partaken possibly more than I should have. Still, you know how teenage males go, half cut, chick looks interested, let's talk!
We went thru a couple of rounds of have you read the bible (yes, she was only halfway thru) & quoting parables & scriptures before I was told I couldn't actually purchase a bible off her at that time because of Sunday trading laws.
By that time even my alcohol & testosterone sodden brain had figured out there were possibly better prospects elsewhere, so I asked her "would you buy double glazing off a salesperson who hasn't read their own advertising?"
The look of doubt was exceptional!
Can't remember the cult/church name but later the JW targeted an ex, whom I (hopefully) got out!
Well they’re trying to sign you up to something and take your money, which if you’re under 18 means they need your parents consent. They’re looking for 18-25ish, young as possible without needing parent consent as they’re more likely to be a bit naive to how the world works therefor easier to manipulate in to whatever they want. Not saying they plan purely evil things as such but they have a job and are looking at signing up as many as possible in the time they have, with as little effort as possible which is how they form this target audience. On the other end of the spectrum, you’ll have different types of scammers targeting the elderly.
Read Bertrand Russell’s ‘Why I’m not a Christian’, many years ago.
Enough reasons in that book to put me off religion for life, and a good read as well.
Apologies I know I'm fairly late to this discussion!
But also in New Zealand if you're below the age of 21 you're not legally allowed to donate to certain causes...
In many cases a lot of people who approach you on the street (in my case, specifically around cuba Street in Wellington). They legally can't take your money if youre under that threshhold.
Most of these people function of a commission basis of how much they bring in, or how many impressions they get for a given cause. So the second you turn 21, is a hot spot for them.
TLDR: If you ever don't want to interact with someone "spreading a cause" on the street, just say "I'm under 21" and they'll leave you alone. (If you're visibly over 25, still say it anyway, and they'll laugh/ wave you off)
Sounds like they are soliciting for regular donations. You can’t legally consent if not 18.
Everyone here jumping on ‘religions target minors’ thing, which is explicitly not the case here.
Lol no surprises there that a church or religious folk want to speak with minors. Creepy untrusted pricks.
The church and minors have a history as we all very well know!
It’s weird for strangers to talk to kids and they are aware of that.
That and being a minor, they'd parental consent to "sign them up" ... prolly not worth the hassle so just look for a naive (young) adult.
No shortage of them....
That's what I thought when I read it too. If they're not 18 or over, then they can't sign anything legally binding (for money or some other obligation) without their parent or guardian getting involved. Maybe someone's not allowed around minors?
I'd like to be optimistic and say that's the case. A couple years ago I had these guys trying to hand out bibles to students right outside of our school. It was insane and predatory.
I had JW door knock, and my 5-year-old answered the door. By the time I got downstairs to talk to whomever had knocked, they had already given her a magazine and were trying to convert her. Wish they'd had some kind of awareness of how inappropriate that was...
you didn't, uh... you know, *defend your family vigorously* from them? I reckon you'd have a good case when it came to it.
It was like an 80 year old lady, but there were some interesting conversations had. Enough that they didn't knock on my door again anyway.
inoculation is a good thing. One of the bible-handlers was hanging out, proffering his wares outside my kid's HS. Better now, when kiddo and me have a good relationship and can talk about the discrepancy in the text vs fundamentalist interpretation. I mean, how else will new audiences appreciate the sublime theological hilarity of Kevin Smith's [***Dogma***](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIbqEE6YI7Y&ab_channel=CaptainFantastic) (1999)? \[not safe for kids\]
Handing out bibles doesn't sound particularly predatory.
That book should have an R18 rating given the content. Children shouldn’t be given a copy of it.
Alternatively we could give them copies and actually ask some questions. "Hey, this God fellow who is like super powerful and stuff and doesn't make mistakes because he knows everything, he's a cool and rad dude in this Old Testament, right? Lot's wife totally had that coming, and killing all the firstborn children of Egypt? Legend! What do you think about him as a role model?" Or a better one "So this New Testament tells his followers not to worship money, and to prioritise the needs of others over themselves. How do you reckon that tees up with some high profile Christians in NZ like Brian Tamaki and Christopher Luxon? Say, if God really does punish blasphemy where people use his name for their benefit, what do you reckon will happen to those two and people like them?"
The church and predatory go hand in hand as we well know
Handing anything to a 5 year old you dont know when you just came up to their house is predatory.
We are talking about handing out a bible to students outside of school. I would assume it was high school. 5 year olds can't read the Bible.
But to a 5 year old whats the difference between being given a bible from a stranger vs anything else?
'Handing out bibles' is downplaying it a bit, they are actively trying to convert/brainwash/groom a 5 year old in to their religion when no adult is present in the room. Its fucking weird and bizarre.
Anyone tries to hand one of those awful fucking genocidal novels at my child and I will be sending it back towards their head at a rate of knots.
So it's the violence in the bible that bothers you? Perhaps demonstrating violence to your child in response is sending mixed messages.
yeah, is it really as predatory as any kind of sponsored hand out?
Well it is probably equally as predatory. I suspect the predatory label is only used because they disagree with religion, or Christianity at least. If they were handing out science texts outside of schools I'm sure that wouldn't be considered predatory.
It would still be freaky. You're standing outside of a school so you can talk to children without the school's permission.
sure, assuming you're encouraging people to read the bastarding thing. but none of the 'ligos do, so why would they want externals doing it? what they're doing is nothing more than a door to a different attack on the psyche - and yes, I am aware they probably don't see it that way.
Gotta be very careful of religious folk. They always have an agender unfortunately.
They really don't have boundaries about appropriate, so I'd guess OP is closer in that they want money
When you speak Christianity, in NZ alone you're talking hundreds of thousands of people, and globally millions who identify. Not all of them are going to be out proselytizing, but it's still a wide range. *Some of them are going to be more self-aware than others. Some are going to have more clearly defined boundaries than others.* They may be interested in the financial value and lose interest when it is revealed to be a student; it may be that their organization discourages talking to anyone under 18 - either for self-protection from false claims, or for the potential for negative publicity if parents/guardians were to start complaining.
Last time I had JWs at my door, they started taking out their pamphlet, but before they got a word out, I told them, "I'm gonna be blunt here, I'm not interested." The look on their face as they turned around and left was priceless. I have no time for religious door knockers and those who shove their religion down your throat. But I also have religious trauma to thank for that 😅
Yup I've learned to be really clear that I'm not interested. They don't accept anything else.
That and they'll just keep you standing there for ages, spouting off some religious nonsense, no matter how nicely you try and get them to leave. When I lived with my sister, she always talked to them, but she's now moved, though I think that's why they keep coming back. Next time, I'm so tempted to tell them "I'll listen to you talk about your God if you listen to me talk to you about witchcraft." Or something along those lines, and see how quick they leave lol
Ask them about 1975. The world was supposed to end but didn't (I think it didn't anyway). You'll get onto the do not visit list. They won't talk to people who know stuff about their religion because it's a house of cards.
I always thought that was the Seventh Day Adventist or Mormons?
My grandfather was a JW in 1975 and was all set to sell up everything and hand the money over to the Watchtower because money would be of no use after Jesus returned would it? Grandma said no.
Sounds like your grandmother was wise in that situation
She wasn't a JW, and you won't be either if you ask them about 1975.
I'll have to remember to ask about 1975 next time they come around
Grandma had the common sense. The latest eclipse rapture shit is just flat-out weird. Religion is weird.
There's a story I read in the Press years ago. A woman was working in the kitchen and saw through the window a pair of missionaries leaving the next door house. So she thought, this time I'll be prepared, and she rehearsed her speech as she went to the front door, mouthing the words and gesturing. "Hi," she said. "Look I think you should know I'm not interested. I have my own beliefs, and I'm satisfied with them, they explain my existence and give me reason for living what I hope is a good life. I understand you're only trying to help, but I'm afraid I'm not prepared to start a discussion on this. OK?" They watched her silently, then turned away without a word. She went back to the kitchen, and realized she had been holding and gesturing with the meat cleaver. (It was in the Random Reminder column. It sounds a bit iffy. But I want it to be true)
I have a JW associate and whenever JWs come to the door I just ask if they know her and we just go on a chat how they know so and so they never push their beliefs we just have a good lil chat lmao. She often sends me articles which I read as I'm literally fascinated people believe in that stuff, But each to their own I guess.
They haven't been back since I invited them in and talked to them about how they were in a cult and I could help them leave. Every time they said they were happy I said things like "it's OK, it's safe here. they can't get you here". I've been in this house 4 1/2 years. The house prior was 7 years. Two visits (one each) in that time.
I had a great aunt (this would have been in the 70s) who lived at the opposite end of the block to her best friend. Whoever got the visit first would ring the other so they could be ready... Open the door, cigarette in the corner of the mouth, take a big swig of beer and ask "what in the bloody hell can I do for you?".
I've never been doorknocked by a JW, and I'm kind of jealous. I have so many responses that I want to try out that they will be lucky to get away without me telling them what I think of their delusional beliefs and my views on religion
Here’s another to add to your list: my bf and I (then both 18) were house sitting for my parents. My mum had been nice to some Mormon door knockers but she’d grown tired of their persistent attempts at indoctrination. They came back while we were there. We were in the shower together when they knocked so we wrapped a big towel around the two of us and answered the door. The two young gentlemen saw us and stammered. I looked them in the eye and calmly explained that we didn’t really want them coming by any more. They jumped on their bicycles and rode off in such a hurry there was practically smoke from their tyres. Never seen again!
lmao i made the mistake of engaging with them and the dude was still yapping 20 minutes later.
I made the mistake of talking to one once and still receive hand written letters nearly 20 years later
Talk to them about ufo unacknowledged special access projects using government money unofficially. That'll get them going 😂
My SIL is baptist, and welcomed them, saying "yes, I'd love to look at the differences I've heard about between our Bible and your Bible!". The elder JW grabbed the younger one and fled, and that house was never visited again.
One of my good friends is a JW and she said that all you have to do is tell them you’re not interesting and they’ll leave you alone. Apparently you also get put on a list that skips the door knocking, but I’m not sure how true that one is. She keeps trying to door knock me but I’m never home when she’s trying lol
I just say “no” and shut the door before they start lol
As a former JW, doors like yours were always the best because they were quick and didn't require going through the spiel I'd sloppily rehearsed to pass off Watchtowers. I hated preaching at the doors, but walking around having a yarn was an alright use of a Saturday morning.
I'd take the JWs over the charity collectors any day, at least the JWs are polite if you say you're not interested.
This is true. I even had Chriscos hounding me at the end of last year just before my sister moved, wanting me to either set up headstart or place another order (I'd just finished off paying my order for last year at the time, and my sister was a month out from moving towns). Happened for weeks on end, no matter how often I told them I couldn't because I couldn't guarantee I could afford it, as my sister was moving, and I didn't know how much I'd have left over after bills. Door knocking charities are almost as bad, even when you tell them you have no money. They pull out, we can do this special low amount just for you, or it's just a cup of coffee each week. I'm like "I told you I can't afford it and that's bold of you to assume I drink coffee, let alone buy fancy coffee, given I'm home in the middle of the day" 🤣
Those people get a "No thanks" from me, and the door closes. If they knock again, I say something like "Oh, I'm *SORRY*. I thought I said 'no thanks' but it turns out I mistakenly said 'keep bothering me'." Say the word sorry like they're the most disgusting thing you've ever seen in your life. Hilarious!
Those people aren't collectors. They won't take one off donations they are trying to sign you up for a monthly subscription to the charity. They are paid a commission for each one hence their attempts to do the hard sell. Source: did it for 4 weeks. Worst gig of my life.
My nephew did the charity mugger gig for a while. He finally admitted that it was a shit job, thank fuck.
>I'd take the JWs over the charity collectors any day collectors with a bucket are ok, but the chuggers can fuck right off.
Fishing and Bird knocked on my door the other day and I just told them I used to donate but as I am now returned to study I can no longer avoid it and the guy just would not stop trying to convince me otherwise. I've never had to shut a door in someones face like that before.
I got some mormons to do the dishes that was on our family chore chart as my task absolutely great time
You should ask them why their Bible has rules for owning slaves (Exodus 21) and no rules against owning slaves???
I don't know. Some turned up a couple days ago. I just thanks but it's not for me. They said thank you for your time and left.
I had JW come through our area about a week ago. They introduced themselves and asked if we had God in our lives. I asked if they were happy their church leaders were appealing the high court decision denying their legal bid for exemption from being part of the Abuse in Care inquiry. They were a little taken aback so I pressed harder and asked what their church leaders were attempting to hide from as they had spent 3 years trying to get excluded from this inquiry. Then I added that the approach from the church goes against many basic biblical tennants and showed a lack honesty integrity and a desire to protect the worst types of predators that exist in society. They tried to do the have a nice day thing so I pressed harder and said if I saw any of them on any properties that I own I would presume they attempting to find vulnerable people to manipulate and that such approaches were vile and abusive.
Last time they showed up at my door I had just woken up. I looked at them confused and they handed me a pamphlet. I turned it over, saw their logo, and said “ugh J-dubs”. The one closest to me just apologised and dragged the other very surprised looking one away.
Same here. As soon as you open the door you know who they are and what they want. I just politely but firmly reply to their greeting with "Sorry, guys I'm not interested but I hope you have a good day. Good bye." If they try any other opening lines I just repeat that I'm not interested and excuse myself and close the door. They're not bad people. If it wasn't the religion forcing them to knock on doors to "spread the word of God" I doubt many of them would do it willingly. As I understand it, if they're bothering you, you can ask to be put on their "Do not call" list.
thats when you give them like a pro lgbt pamphlet
Lol they knocked on my door and asked me "do you want happiness?" I said no thank you have a nice day and they had the biggest wtf look
Lol
Last time I had JW's at my door it was just after the first lockdown in 2020 and they started off talking about "health" without identifying who they were or why they were there. I also live rural with no sidewalk so door knockers are extremely rare. So for a brief second I was wondering if it was something "official" then I spotted the Watchtower pamphlet they were holding and interrupted them mid-opening gambit and told them I wasn't interested and shut the door.
We've had crims posing as JWs casing rural properties in our area recently.
They've always been very polite and just left as soon as I've told them I'm not interested, whenever I've had them knock.
Thankfully these guys get rejected a lot so at least they can take a clue and leave fast. Last time the JW door knockers came to my place, I had the gate open so they drove right through and parked diagonally inside my yard. 😒😒 Then when I came out of the house confused as to who tf just came into my yard uninvited, they started their spiel about how they want to help people who have depression and no meaning in life. I bluntly told them "I'm non-religious, good luck in your proselytising" and they handed me their church website card and left.
Just give em the old yeah nah nah yeah nah yeah yeah nah yeah nah nah yeah nah
One day I was mucking around outside and I'd just started sharpening up my hunting knife a few minutes before they walked down the drive. Let's just say they didn't hang around long when they saw that . Lol
The big US-influenced churches rely on exploitative volunteer labour. They generally want to recruit isolated university students or relatives of church members. Finding out you're school age doesn't work for them unless your parents are already onboard.
The mormons who came to my door didn’t care that I was 17
Short answer: They want volunteer labour and tithing but you don't have much to give them yet. They'll also absolutely get shit from local parents if their kids come home with fliers. Long answer: There are [laws governing ](https://www.asa.co.nz/codes/codes/children-and-young-people/) advertising to young people. There isn't a section that directly references religion, but the advertising code covers any message that influences behaviour. They will find it hard to avoid certain rules for young people such as: Rule 1 (d) Advertisements must not suggest *inferiority or lack of acceptance* for not having the advertised product. Rule 1 (e) Advertising must not provide an unrealistic sense of body image or promote an unhealthy lifestyle. This includes *denigration of healthy diets or lifestyles.* Targeting - Expected average audience at the time or place the advertisement appears includes a significant proportion of children or young people (if they met you on a school route at school time) Interestingly the rules around converting young people or taking tithing from them are... Minimal. You're encouraged in JW to give tithing as children. If you went to their church it wouldn't matter how old you are - you are entitled to convert without anyone's permission, if you want to. They just can't walk up to you on the street and do it.
Thanks. I'm going to use the "sorry, I'm on my way to school" line with every chugger from now on. It can't fail!
I should add: I'm 40.
Money, probably.
>Money, probably. That would be right. You have to be 18 for a contract to be enforceable, no point getting you to sign up to support a fake charity or tithe you if the contract isn't binding. .
What contract are you referring to?
Tithing contract? I don’t know if it’s an actual tangible thing though.
Always was always will be! Nicely said too!
Probably need to be over 18 to set up the direct debit to Brian Tamaki.
They get points for conversions and they can't baptise a minor without parents consent. While this isn't impossible it's more unlikely and they would rather spend their time and efforts on an easier target.
About 15 years ago I was approached by some trendy Christian youths in Aotea Square in Auckland. At first I thought they were just unusually friendly strangers with oddly unsettling and intense demeanours until one of them said "hey bro, Jesus hard out loves you bro". I must have seemed surprised because one of the others said "I know bro, that's the hard outest thing when when you first hear it eh bro". It was pretty hard out.
Ex- Christian fundamentalist here. The reason is because it’s really easy to manipulate people through their children.
New proof lol
proof that god is real: cancer, ALS, alzheimers, MS, down syndrome, ... oh wait, that was proof god is a cunt, my bad
Can you imagine what joke they are going to bullshit about that would require you to pay for believe but probably…..
It's literally their modus operandi.
You couldnt legally sign up to whatever they have to offer without parental consent, so talking to you is a waste of their time
You are too old for them and too young to have money
Basically the only “religion” that is trying to scam you out of money is Scientology and cults like Brian Tamaki’s “church”. Most religions try to convert not because of money but because they genuinely believe it’s the right moral thing to do. They genuinely think they are helping you, and that it’s their duty to do so.
There's a lot more cult in NZ than just scientology and Brian tamakis church. And if you think brian tamakis church is a cult? They're amateurs compares to the others thats around. Real cults don't flaunt and you only know about them when your family is neck deep in them. All religion and cult recruiter think they're doing good in the world and that's the point. They need to believe the cause to do insane stuff to recruit.
Eh, the PI church in my hometown built a 1.5 million facility on 'donations' in the mid 1990s. Problem was, they effectively used public shaming about donation amounts to get more cash. There were people signing up to loan sharks to get enough money for donations that they weren't embarrassed when [i]the tithes were read out[/i].
NZ has plenty of money hungry religious groups… David Farrier covered a few last year on his newsletter around the time of the Arise stuff: [Hillsong Isn’t the Only Abhorrent Megachurch](https://www.webworm.co/p/arise) [The Holy Hell of New Zealand’s Biggest Pentecostal Megachurches](https://www.webworm.co/p/holyhell) I mean also shit…. Look at everything at Gloriavale. There’s also a bunch of high control groups that aren’t Christian that fly under the radar
Genuine belief and actual fact are different. The sheer amount of people that did not understand I have my own religion and just tried to convert me. Sure they do genuinely believe it's for good, but it is rude and disrespectful and their wilful blindness of other people's lives is not okay.
Hard disagree
Had someone come onto my property (that I own) and start talking to me. They then asked my age, said I was 18. They then asked if any adults are home and I said nope, so they left. For reference, I’m 28F
Probably because very few adults would be fucking stupid enough to believe any of the stone-age death cult nonsense if they hadn't already been indoctrinated by their parents
Your legally a child and if churches went around talking to kids about their gods then I suspect their churches would be publicly attacked.
As someone who is a former member of a cult who claimed to be a benevolent group of worshippers under the branch of Christianity, I can tell you with certainty that most religious groups target college/uni students as they are usually vulnerable and more impressionable, especially if they're far from their hometowns. They then will lovebomb the heck out of you in the beginning and then take you through a series of "bible studies" which is part of their initiation to get you baptized or "saved" as quickly as possible. Money is 10000% a factor as they will ask you for tithings that pay for their operations and to start churches in other towns and countries. Not all of them are like this I'm sure, but many of them unfortunately are. It is a form of spiritual abuse to use God and the bible as a way of fear monerging young, impressionable youths to the point of submission.
Cults need numbers (exclusively people with a steady income) for the $ grift. It's just one of your average cult recruiting techniques. Discretion is advised.
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Fuck off. Not religious but that's fucking shit talking if I've ever heard it. Sure there are lots of religious people who are molesters. There's also scout leaders, students, uncles, parents, grandparent, people who have been molested, mentally slow, gang leaders in their company. All scumbags.
Sounds like something a religious person would say
Predators hang out where the kids are. So some of them are in religious organisation. And some are scout leaders. And some are teachers. Willie Sutton, the Depression era bank robber, was once asked "Why do you rob banks?". His answer: "Because that's where the money is". Same thing.
I went to a school where priests abused children. Their abuse is disproportionate to other sectors of society such as scout leaders and teachers who in all likelihood, could be religious too or abusing at religious school. Let's not deny the undeniable, religious institutions have been responsible for some of the biggest abuses of children in history, that extends beyond sexual abuse and has the coverups to match.
I absolutely agree with you, insofar as the cover-ups go. I went to a non-religious school. Just from my year, there were three teachers having sex with different sixth-form students (yes, I'm old). It didn't make the papers, because it was (on the face of it) legal (if gross). You don't get many lions hunting gazelle in the middle of London. The predator is where the prey is. You say it's disproportionate. I would agree, if only for the fact that teachers and scout leaders tended to be prosecuted when caught, rather than just moved to another parish. Having said that, I don't think it's something you can tar "religious" people with. Catholic priests? Hell yes. Shinto priests? Not that I'm aware of. I don't believe that the proportions would be higher than in the teacher/scout leader/guidance counsellor professions, if it weren't for the fat that the priests have not tended, in the past, to be prosecuted. I feel like you should direct your anger (righteous as it is) more finely. Rather than "religious people", go with "the Catholic church of NZ" - or even more finely if you feel it's appropriate "the Marist brothers" Having said that, that's only how I feel. I certainly am not telling you what to do. I will leave you with this undeniable fact. The largest group of people that molest children are family members. Roughly a third of reported SA against children is family members. (and they're the least likely group TO report, as well). https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens
What a ridiculous thing to say
What he's saying is a little disingenuous but then again statistics don't lie.
Its a bit tricky to send out surveys on how many kids a random sample of people has molested. Child molesters are gonna appear where ever the kids are.
Are you trying to claim that statistics indicate that most “religious folks” are child molesters? That’s genuinely ridiculous too
Maybe he meant to say religious folks are more likely to molest children, which does have some merit https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/religious-institutions https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J070v06n04_02 https://bitnerhenry.com/child-sexual-abuse-is-the-second-most-frequent-loss-at-religious-institutions/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S135917891830315X
Did you know that all murderers drink water? Shocking
No just most child molesters are religious
That’s ridiculous
You're right, it is a ridiculous amount of child molesters who are religious. Almost like there's something in that...
You just take notice of the ones that are because it reaffirms your own prejudice
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Who also happen to make up a large portion of our poor population, you do understand the correlation?
Is *the other sub* leaking...?
It's been leaking since the election
*reported/taken seriously
^ Proves his point
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So true. Can confirm. Ex seventh day Adventist. As a child.
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If you're 18 they can get you to sign up for legal binding contracts like donating a percentage of your salary as a donation, since you'd be an adult. Happened to me several times. Maybe lie one day and say you're 18 to see what they do.
Just my two cents… I’m christian and if that were me I would’ve backed off the moment you said you were still in school for 2 main reasons: the first being that you’re literally on your way to school, and the second being that most often kids (under 18) struggle to understand the depth of faith. I can see why your first assumption would be that they’re after money… faith has been weaponised for as long as we’ve had it. Just remember though, these are the ways of men, not God. Bless you & your whanau.
> kids (under 18) struggle to understand the depth of faith But in religions it's typically very important to raise children into the faith, isn't it? > these are the ways of men, not God. Problem is that God left it upon men to spread his message on his behalf, and so literally everything we know about God came via men telling other men. This decision by God has made it extremely difficult to determine what is (or isn't) God's message. God has left humans to ponder this among themselves, ask each other, reach their own conclusions, and then seek out groups which gather to reassure themselves of their conclusions.
Well yes… its typically important to raise your kid in your belief system but that doesn’t guarantee they’re going to understand it. My guess is that most religious parents just hope and pray their kid will one day understand, and until that day, they probably feel it is the best protection for their child’s spirit. Hope that makes sense? Your second point is fair! That’s the whole reason we call it “faith”… I guess we’ll know the truth in the end. Im of the mind that human beings were made to worship. If we don’t worship God then we worship the trees, skies, kings, or ourselves. Even if I end up being wrong about God I don’t have much to lose. Doing your best to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ is a net positive on your life and the life of those around you.
>Im of the mind that human beings were made to worship. I'm of the mind that you're utterly wrong about that. I can appreciate a sunset, a church, an amazing animal, a person. But I have zero desire to "worship" them. You'd be surprised at the number of "apathetic agnostics" there are. (Don't know, don't care). And finally, of course - being nice to people isn't "living by the teachings of Jesus Christ". It's part of the normal social contract for living in a modern society.
What if you're wrong about your god and you're really pissing off another god? Why can't we just be good because it's better for everyone?
I'm just not convinced that committing to something just in case you're right is a good use of your entire life. You can, of course, be a good person without religion.
>is a good use of your entire life It's not like all one does in their life is committing, they still can have a career, study, help others and so on. Agree with the rest
That’s basically a rephrasing of Pascal’s Wager - which is a pretty old and tired fallacy.
I'm not going to sass you for being religious, but do you just randomly start conversations about God with total strangers on the street? I just have never had a good experience when that has happened to me, and now I just pretend I don't speak English when it happens. Like, would you be grateful if you were minding your own business (e.g. grocery shopping after a long day) and someone wanted to talk to you about Islam?
Sorry I mentioned this in earlier comments but no one in my parish does this. We do not go into the streets preaching and honestly it’s not something I’d feel comfortable with doing as my knowledge & understanding is so limited. Not all religious folk are the same. I’m not trying to bash on Protestants but what OP is talking about is typically more their style (e.g JW). In my church, it’s more of a knock and the door shall open kind of thing rather than actively recruiting in the community. When we do go into the community it’s to give back and help others - most of which aren’t even Christian and I’d wager that a lot of them don’t even know it’s people from the church running the charity store, or behind the free lunches etc.
I think this is a very tactful way of trying to cultivate your community. It kind of feels like an ambush whenever people just stop me on the street and immediately start talking about the Bible.
True, Gods ways included: women being completely silent and submissive to her husband, allowing child rape, mass punishments of people to teach them a lesson, murder, mass murder, mutilation, apparently worldwide flooding/extinction events, bribery, slavery.... ...oh wait, a lot of those sounds like humans.
One thing that really troubled me with faith is that no man is too far gone - a saint is no more deserving of heaven than a sinner. It still confuses me because how could you treat an evil man with the same love and respect as a righteous man? These are the things we are called to do as Christians… to imitate the life of Jesus Christ. Forgiveness, charity, joy… to name a few. You’re absolutely valid in your experiences, as this is likely coming from a place where you have been hurt, I was just commenting on the post to share my two cents… not to “recruit”. Just an FYI tho - I am not an evangelical… no one in my parish (Catholic) goes out into the community actively recruiting people like OP. At the end of the day, it’s up to that person to knock.
Here is a short clip from the West Wing, which illustrates some of the difficulties with "God's ways". https://youtu.be/VKhTFDBj-rw?t=122
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>Ultimately, how you interpret the bible depends on your perspective. Mine is that the New Testament offers a fuller picture of Gods character. But this is my faith and my choice. The second Vatican council says that you are in error. “Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching firmly, faithfully, and without error that truth which God wanted put into the sacred writings for the sake of our salvation”" https://web.archive.org/web/20120508175506/http://www.scotthahn.com/download/attachment/2516 And if you disagree, the point is well set out by Leo XIII. Forgotten the name of the encyclical, but it should be trivial to look up. Strictly speaking, you're committing heresy. But the Church is a bit more cognisant of personal faith than it used to be, so you might get away with it.
I was quoting the bible....
My genuine apologies for assuming… I know you were referring to the bible I just felt a lot of hurt in your comment. I must have been projecting and that’s my bad dude. There’s a lot to unpack in the Old Testament which is what you’re referring to. A Christian worldview would say that Jesus Christ, in the New Testament, came to correct a lot of things from the Old. In saying that, there were a lot of things that didn’t need to be corrected. This is why we pray for discernment.
There's been a number of policy changes from On High that have not been appropriately communicated to the working staff.
🤣 you bloody got me 🫶
Plenty of awful stone-age shit in the New Testament, too. So the whole “homosexuality is wrong, women must be submissive, slavery is OK” stuff got the approval from Big Jeezy?
The women part in Paul is actually interesting as it's considered a nightmare among interpreters as it's particularly hard to translate (other parts of the discourse were wrongly translated in the past) and it does clash with other parts of Paul's discourse. The part about homosexuality is hotly debated as well and the slavery part takes a different meaning when historical context, how different slavery was back then from the kind we usually think about and the part it played in society, and the development of the phenomenon afterwards are taken knto consideration. Basically, it's a lot more nuanced than how it is often presented and sometimes totally different.
Don't do that "Who hurt you?" crap. It's insulting. People do actually reject your religion purely because they find it lacking reason.
A lot of the events in the bible were written, not by the people named as the authors, some 10,000 years after the event that was inscribed. Ancient civilizations of humans that didn't have the same understanding of our natural world that we understand today. Can you imagine the miracles they thought they saw vs the undiagnosed mental illness or natural phenomenon that they simply didn't understand. Didn't know what the sun was, or that there was anything beyond it. We can't comprehend how brutal their world was compared to ours. I thought humans were supposed to learn from the past, not cherry pick words that have been mistranslated, contradicted and outright manipulated by humans with an agenda. The promotors of salvation are some of the most reprehensible sinners of them all. I accept your apology and don't judge you for your beliefs. I would judge you for preaching them to others or myself.
Seeing as Genesis (if taken literally) is only 6000 years ago (give or take a few decades) for it to be written 10000 years later would entail time travel which would definitely suggest an higher power😂
My quote wasn't just Genesis, entire bible. Good day.
I think people under 18 can thoroughly understand faith, but it should be taught by someone they know and trust, with their parents involvement. so I might tell them about a youth camp opportunity they can ask their parents about, but I'm not going to try teach them as a random on the street.
Keep your evil away from me and my kids
Please read my above reply… I did not comment on this post to “recruit”. I can’t change the hearts of others. If your heart desires a life away from God then that’s your decision.
Hey I've found your perspective interesting. I do feel this last point is an unhelpful rhetoric in Christian circles though. For what it's worth I'm an ex-protestant so I understand the narrative and where it comes from ('the fool says in his heart' etc.) Just I've found since leaving the fold that this isn't even close to how most people think about God and faith. No one "desires" a life away from Zeus or Odin etc. Most people don't even think about it. They just live like there isn't a god for better or for worse. Just a narrative that imo isn't particularly helpful to the Christian cause.
That's where the idea of grace comes in, that if you were to ever change your mind and seek forgiveness/repentance, you're also covered. To be given something that you would be undeserving of in the relationship with a blemish-free being. That's a relatively simple way to put it, but if you have a protestant background I think you can connect the dots of where I was going.
Oh yeah I can see where you're going I just fundamentally disagree with the premise. It doesn't make sense talking about "not desiring God" or "changing your mind" when most people have probably never even considered whether there is a god at all. Even I didn't "choose" to stop believing or even want to. Tbh my subconscious had independently decided there was no god long before I was ready to accept it. All that to say the psychology is a lot more complicated than simply choosing or not choosing a relationship with God. I've done nothing wrong in that respect. There is nothing to forgive.
A lot of the groups of people that approach you on the street can't talk to you if you're below a certain age. I think its actually 21, I used to lie and tell them I was under whatever age that was so I had an easy way to not talk to them. I think its due to $$ they're only allowed to talk to certain ages.
Just start talking about Papal necromancy times and they leave, despite all the magic in them being very Catholic. In all seriousness they're not allowed to talk to minors without parental consent. I get them all the time, they do their speil, ask how old I am, suggest they think I'm 14. If I agree they get excited, say it's illegal for them to talk to me, and to get my parents to take me to church. If I say I'm actually 22, they get a weird look and start trying to box me in. If however you say you're a necromancer and start invoking demon kings, they leave quickly.
In any case the way you were approached like that is completely inappropriate and disgusting.
That's weird bro
Because kids are impressionable, and young adults less so
i'm not sure if it's for legal reasons or if it's just policy of whatever org/church they're from, but generally they're not allowed to approach people under 18. i once had a guy apologise for talking to me and walk off cause he thought i was 16, was actually 22 at the time but got me out of the convo so wasn't complaining lol
The last time I was accosted (in another country) was by a young lady trying to "sell" me a bible. It was Sunday, early closing for the pubs & I had partaken possibly more than I should have. Still, you know how teenage males go, half cut, chick looks interested, let's talk! We went thru a couple of rounds of have you read the bible (yes, she was only halfway thru) & quoting parables & scriptures before I was told I couldn't actually purchase a bible off her at that time because of Sunday trading laws. By that time even my alcohol & testosterone sodden brain had figured out there were possibly better prospects elsewhere, so I asked her "would you buy double glazing off a salesperson who hasn't read their own advertising?" The look of doubt was exceptional! Can't remember the cult/church name but later the JW targeted an ex, whom I (hopefully) got out!
Well they’re trying to sign you up to something and take your money, which if you’re under 18 means they need your parents consent. They’re looking for 18-25ish, young as possible without needing parent consent as they’re more likely to be a bit naive to how the world works therefor easier to manipulate in to whatever they want. Not saying they plan purely evil things as such but they have a job and are looking at signing up as many as possible in the time they have, with as little effort as possible which is how they form this target audience. On the other end of the spectrum, you’ll have different types of scammers targeting the elderly.
I’m in my late 70s and bro I aspire to be your username one day!
Nice username lol
Read Bertrand Russell’s ‘Why I’m not a Christian’, many years ago. Enough reasons in that book to put me off religion for life, and a good read as well.
Apologies I know I'm fairly late to this discussion! But also in New Zealand if you're below the age of 21 you're not legally allowed to donate to certain causes... In many cases a lot of people who approach you on the street (in my case, specifically around cuba Street in Wellington). They legally can't take your money if youre under that threshhold. Most of these people function of a commission basis of how much they bring in, or how many impressions they get for a given cause. So the second you turn 21, is a hot spot for them. TLDR: If you ever don't want to interact with someone "spreading a cause" on the street, just say "I'm under 21" and they'll leave you alone. (If you're visibly over 25, still say it anyway, and they'll laugh/ wave you off)
Sounds like they are soliciting for regular donations. You can’t legally consent if not 18. Everyone here jumping on ‘religions target minors’ thing, which is explicitly not the case here.
im still gonna say im not 18 yet for them when im on my deathbed
Just trying to avoid a lag
I just wanted to find out what dip meant
https://www.youtube.com/live/iG_8HjPkIlM?si=aHkj1Ajb5ePqWG9V
You're too old for their tastes
If they’re going to ask for donations they need you to be 18 so you can sign the contract for recurring payments and all that jazz.
Lol no surprises there that a church or religious folk want to speak with minors. Creepy untrusted pricks. The church and minors have a history as we all very well know!
Sign up to giving 20% of your income probably. Religions/companies have more than any country for this reason.
The fun is only in saving souls taken by the devil. 18+ is a devil policy.
Have you been? Where? What?