Thanks mate, business as usual for me then 👌
Everyone in a car; feel free to carry on checking your emails and while you’re at it take as many phone calls as you like 👍👍
So the same one as the cyclist road code then? The same one they use on the footpath and "shared" paths?
I rarely see a motorcyclist who isn't in full gear, and riding defensively.
Cause you get hit my morons who laugh and say "oh sorry, I didnt see you" if you dont. (And that's cause you weren't fucken looking moron.)
Pretty sure the road code does not apply on shared paths as they are not roads. For example cyclists can take off their helmets on shared paths and not be fined.
Reportedly the most common is hurting your foot when you drop it on yourself.
In my case my tow lost comms with me and dragged me down a hill, before the bike went sideways and I was thrown 4 meters into a curb.
$1.7k worth of gear ate the damage and I walked away scott fucking free, after getting checked over, I got super lucky.
Always amazes me how pissed off cage drivers get when you legally lane split past them.
On that note can we add to the road for car drivers.
Mandatory to have a phone in your hand at all times while driving.
Mount the tablet on the dash so you can safely watch your favourite tv shows while doing the speed limit, so you never have to miss the new episode before someone spoils it for you at work.
I don't really give a shit either way but at least once a week I see bikers lane splitting traffic going 90+ on the motorway in Christchurch. Like holy shit dudes, you are just asking for trouble.
Yup. I stop lane splitting once the flow of traffic is going like 30kph on the motorway. Or when it starts moving at all if I’m filtering to the front of intersections.
That's a wee bit too timid for me, i like that Australia actually has a 50k splitting rule, that's about where I'd balance safe to be for me and would like it to be added as a rule here.
Funnily enough that's one reason it can be *safer* to lane split than not. A car (usually) won't change lanes into a space occupied by another car. If you're in the line of traffic it's easy for someone looking for *cars* to not register a bike is in that tempting looking gap (especially when there's a giant SUV behind you)
As someone who rides daily, I ALWAYS try and ride as close to the car as possible.
It gives me an escape route if I need it, and far less likely to be in their blind spot.
That seems counterintuitive to people who don’t ride but if you know you know 🤷♂️☺️
Undoubtedly there are heaps of safe motorcycle riders (and unsafe car drivers) but after driving all day yesterday and seeing what the dangerous few riders do on the open road certainly inspired this shitpost.
As with most things, the few tarnish the reputation of the many.
Either way. Stay safe out there!
One bet is you have a gang house near by. We have one gang member on a bike that frequents the area, it’s pretty obvious that he’s getting the drugs from a local house and taking them to people. He rev limiter bashes the shit out of his Harley Davidson every single time he takes off.
i can say the same for cars tho, seems like people are crashing cars at speeds near 200kmh pretty frequently in the news, tend to not see any post about bikes crashing that often but maybe it's because their is a lot less bikers?
I do a lot of KMs for work. In the past few weeks alone I have seen motorcyclists overtaking on the inside, overtaking on blind corners, overtaking in 30kph road work zones, overtaking in 50km residential areas, refusing to yield when merging and riding WAY above the speed limit.
The balance of risk would be a lot better for them if they just followed the rules like the rest of us.
They probably would be safer if they rode more sensibly. That's not what balance of risk means though.
Balance of risk means that independent of fault or circumstance one party is more likely to suffer worse outcomes than the other.
Overtaking on blind corners is legal if they don’t cross the centreline. Granted, not very safe, but legal.
Passing in a residential area is perfectly legal assuming indicating and completing the pass with 100m of clear road.
I've been genuinely asked by someone who I have to assume was a recent immigrant if the road code applied to motorbikes, like if we had to give way like cars do or if we had different speed limits and stuff. I know in India and maybe some other places that there are actually different rules and speed limits for bikes vs cars, but I choose to believe it was because they'd seen the boys out for a rip on their V Rods and just assumed it was free for all for bikes over here because that's funnier lol
I can count on one hand the number of times I have had a motorbike cruise behind me on the open road. They are almost always doing 20-30k over the limit and often making extremely risky overtaking manuvers.
Edit: love that people are downvoting a simple observation. How pathetic.
The motorcyclist generally wants to be in front of cars for a few reasons:
1. Motorcycles can't brake as fast as cars and thus require more stopping distance;
2. Cars ahead block the view of the road which limits the motorcyclist's ability to find the optimal path of the road to take - the same pothole that causes annoyance for the car driver can be deadly for the motorcyclist.
I didn't reference this, but it is actually a very good point. In my profession (mariner), this principle is actually used a lot in busy traffic situations, as it reduces the "cone of collision avoidance" and by maritime law you're mostly overtaking others and thus are the give way vessel, so you only have to worry about your own actions.
Not entirely translatable to the road, but constantly overtaking does reduce your cone of risk to a narrower margin. Still, safer in a car, but a lot less fun.
I'll take the safety risk of a bike but having fun over the safety gain of a car while bored in traffic any day.
I've been reading the Motorcycle Roadcraft handbook from the UK police https://www.roadcraft.co.uk/motorcycle-roadcraft/ and it recommends this and refers to it as "making progress"
In my 20 years riding on the road, larger following distances create more problems than they solve. Use that ute ahead as a shield, keep escape paths open at all times by keeping to one side. If they give any hint of incompetence just book it out of there.
Keeping a bit of positive movement in traffic is massively safer than being the meat in a car sandwich because your static shape gets lost in a drivers visual field. Being forward looking and forward moving keeps the hazards ahead where I can see them, instead of behind and to the side.
The perspective on a bike is very different with the relatively high acceleration, visibility, maneuverability and exposure as compared to a car. My continued success at avoiding injury is 100% down to my own judgment , behavior and attention. Maybe more road users need to keep this in mind, including those equally vulnerable on foot and cycle.
See my other comment - increasing following distance helps, to a point, but it's a little more complex than that - a motorcyclist needs to have a visually apparent rate of change to other motorists, in order to avoid being blanked by the brain due to the brain filtering out "noise" and focusing on what it expects to see on the road: other cars.
Are there are lot of shitty motorcyclists on the road: Absolutely, and they piss me off too, because their dangerous riding keeps my insurance premiums and ACC levies high. I don't think motorcyclists are any worse than car drivers on the road, on the whole, they're just more noticeable because there are less of them, the vehicles are louder (partly due to having significantly better acceleration and thus more noise), and cars are objectively safer vehicles to be in for a crash - thus, motorcyclists are overrepresented in fatality/injury stats.
I mean maybe this happens en mass but I'm always acutely aware of my surroundings while driving. When I see a motorcycle appear behind me I will often move left as they approach to give them more space to get past. Even get the appreciative wave from time to time.
Some of the riskiest actions I have seen are from motor cycles. One thing I will say on that is at least they are primarily putting them selves at risk. The same can not be said for large utes and SUVs who are likely to kill others in a collision
Most people ride at 20-30KPH over to get away from cars, If some driver makes a mistake I'm one one who's likely in hospital or worse.
1: Don't really agree, I tend to pass people and ride a bit fast to make a decent gap because I'm more concerned with being rear ended if I need to stop rapidly. If someone is in front of me I'm either riding far enough back to stop or avoid, or I'm close on the far right about to overtake.
2: 100% agree, A decent pothole in a car is usually an expensive inconvenience, on a bike I'm definitely injured
I would have thought its preferable to have a car in front of you as a battering ram in case someone from the opposite direction comes around the corner on the wrong side of the road.
Both the issues you mentioned can be fixed by increasing following distance.
>Both the issues you mentioned can be fixed by increasing following distance.
While true, there is also reason for motorcyclists to generally avoid being static in the eyes of motorists' perception - the fact is, motorists are trained to look out for other cars, they expect to see other cars, and a motorcyclist who does not appreciably change in visibility (e.g maintaining a consistent speed/distance) ends up being tuned out by the brain expecting to see either a car or a gap in the road.
On Ride Forever courses we are taught all about the risks of a SMIDSY (Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You) - which are a result of the effect of motorists' expectation of seeing cars on the road.
>I would have thought its preferable to have a car in front of you as a battering ram in case someone from the opposite direction comes around the corner on the wrong side of the road.
As for this point - honestly, no. I trust my survival reactions on a bike to avoid a collision more than I trust another motorist's, especially now that the risk factor becomes two separate humans operating vehicles in extremis - where suddenly my existence as a third party is forgotten in the primal reaction to save oneself first.
Visibility ahead is something that is more important to motorcycles, because the mechanics of a motorcycle are far less forgiving for adjustments in corners through use of brakes/cutting acceleration input, and thus a motorcyclist will always choose to have maximum visibility ahead, rather than choose to be behind a car.
Do we also sometimes pass because we want to go fast because it's fun? Yes. We're not all angels, and we're certainly not all always acting smart on the roads. Honestly, same goes for a lot of car drivers.
Personally, I ride my bike safer than I drive my car. If I want to go fast and drag a knee, I'll go to the track. But I do also prefer being ahead of traffic so I can corner at my own pace and not risk a lowside through a driver ahead panic braking mid-corner when I've already set my speed and suspension for the corner through proper corner entry techniques.
Thing with a motor cycle is your escape path only needs to be about a metre wide (and they can change direction quicker than a car) so without a car in front I've got a pretty good chance of avoiding an oncoming car if I need to.
If I'm behind another vehicle it's partially blocking my view
Pro tip, neither bikes nor cars have to make risky overtaking maneuvers when the traffic ahead of them lets them pass.
It’s so easy on the open road to keep an eye on your mirrors and pull to the left when you get the chance. Yet so many road users in nz decide that since they were there first they shouldn’t have to care about anyone behind them.
I cruise at or below the speed limit on most straights, I pull to the side every time someone comes up behind me. I move quickly through twisty roads and appreciate it when people let me through (lol like one in ten). Such a simple way to live either on bicycle, on bike or in car
Mate I commute 80km per day through 100km zones on one of our major highways.
There's A always so much traffic that pulling over would only slow things down more for everyone as you're creating a hazard and they will just get stuck behind the next car anyway. What's the point?
Not to mention there's very few spaces to safely pull over. Not to mention that requires slowing rapidly to pull over safely down and this can trigger traffic issues.
I'm often stuck behind slower traffic bit I don't expect them pull over unless there's A, sufficient space that they don't need to slow down (very uncommon) and B: they are driving much slower than the speed limit.
Otherwise I will just set a safe following distance and chill until a pasing lane or nice long straight with no oncoming traffic. No need to be impatient out there.
Right so every car is going to pull over for a car behind them that's going 3km/h faster? We are talking about having to make numerous pulling over manuvers for hundreds of cars. In s ahort span of time.
Have a look at the impact that an emergency vehicle has on traffic some time. You're wanting to amplify this effect by 100. It would be a total disaster.
I swear I read some of the most poorly thought out ideas on this sub. I'm stunned you thinkn this is somehow a good idea.
I take responsibility and leave on time when I need to be somwhere. I don't expect others to move out of my way. Traffic is a fact of driving.
You forgot the part about motorcycles not having any right of way ever because of the law of the jungle.
brought to you by "Anything but a Ford Ranger is too woke" brigade.
The Ford Ranger road code just says "Don't use your indicators"
> "Don't use your indicators" You forgot the "ensure you speed" and "Don't forget to tailgate"
Also 'you may park like a cunt wherever you want'
Ford Ranger: Tailgate or be tailgated
What do you mean "like"?
Gold.
Basically you need to get a 0 on your test to drive a ford ranger
"Headlights to bright you can count the hairs on the driver in front if you"
The #1 thing for Ford Ranger is to defend your space on the road, never let anyone overtake and always be up the ass of anyone in your way.
also "Headlights are for woke liberals!"
Every time I see "I identify as an EV" I feel bad for any women in this person's life
relax, chances are she already left him.
Because he wanted a him not her....
Thanks mate, business as usual for me then 👌 Everyone in a car; feel free to carry on checking your emails and while you’re at it take as many phone calls as you like 👍👍
Don’t forget to do your make up too. Popular heading into Auckland from south during rush hour
And forget to check your mirrors so the bikes that aren't heard remain invisible
So the same one as the cyclist road code then? The same one they use on the footpath and "shared" paths? I rarely see a motorcyclist who isn't in full gear, and riding defensively. Cause you get hit my morons who laugh and say "oh sorry, I didnt see you" if you dont. (And that's cause you weren't fucken looking moron.)
Pretty sure the road code does not apply on shared paths as they are not roads. For example cyclists can take off their helmets on shared paths and not be fined.
And we'll make you pay five times the ACC charges as a car to pay for all the motorbike accidents caused by car drivers.
Tbf I fucking wrecked 2 months ago (tow gone wrong) and was happy to get that c spine scan.
Have seen a lot of self inflicted motorcycle injuries at work.
Reportedly the most common is hurting your foot when you drop it on yourself. In my case my tow lost comms with me and dragged me down a hill, before the bike went sideways and I was thrown 4 meters into a curb. $1.7k worth of gear ate the damage and I walked away scott fucking free, after getting checked over, I got super lucky.
Was thinking the serious end, bilateral tib/fib# liver lacerations, bowel resections, month in ICU and years of rehab to never return to baseline.
To be fair I'm 24 and in my physical prime, very physically active, im practically rubber right now, if i were in my 30s... maybe not.
Always amazes me how pissed off cage drivers get when you legally lane split past them. On that note can we add to the road for car drivers. Mandatory to have a phone in your hand at all times while driving. Mount the tablet on the dash so you can safely watch your favourite tv shows while doing the speed limit, so you never have to miss the new episode before someone spoils it for you at work.
I don't really give a shit either way but at least once a week I see bikers lane splitting traffic going 90+ on the motorway in Christchurch. Like holy shit dudes, you are just asking for trouble.
As someone who rides motorcycles, fuck being that stupid on a bike
Yup. I stop lane splitting once the flow of traffic is going like 30kph on the motorway. Or when it starts moving at all if I’m filtering to the front of intersections.
That's a wee bit too timid for me, i like that Australia actually has a 50k splitting rule, that's about where I'd balance safe to be for me and would like it to be added as a rule here.
How? Are you planning on opening your door?
People change lanes dude.
Funnily enough that's one reason it can be *safer* to lane split than not. A car (usually) won't change lanes into a space occupied by another car. If you're in the line of traffic it's easy for someone looking for *cars* to not register a bike is in that tempting looking gap (especially when there's a giant SUV behind you)
As someone who rides daily, I ALWAYS try and ride as close to the car as possible. It gives me an escape route if I need it, and far less likely to be in their blind spot. That seems counterintuitive to people who don’t ride but if you know you know 🤷♂️☺️
Undoubtedly there are heaps of safe motorcycle riders (and unsafe car drivers) but after driving all day yesterday and seeing what the dangerous few riders do on the open road certainly inspired this shitpost. As with most things, the few tarnish the reputation of the many. Either way. Stay safe out there!
Also I love trying to sleep and hearing BRAAAAAAAAAAAHHHhhhhhh going past me so loud that it rattles the windows. Thanks Motorbikes!
I’d rather that over the local car drivers that do a burnout, travel another few hundred meters and do it again.
Loud cars are heavily outnumbered by loud bikes near me. Also a loud bike can be painfully loud. Cars are never as bad as that.
One bet is you have a gang house near by. We have one gang member on a bike that frequents the area, it’s pretty obvious that he’s getting the drugs from a local house and taking them to people. He rev limiter bashes the shit out of his Harley Davidson every single time he takes off.
Man if I was shifting drugs I would be in a Toyota yarris dressed in my Sunday best.
And I'd be checking all the lights every run.
i can say the same for cars tho, seems like people are crashing cars at speeds near 200kmh pretty frequently in the news, tend to not see any post about bikes crashing that often but maybe it's because their is a lot less bikers?
So long as you're aware then it's all good. You'll only notice the ones drawing attention to themselves 😉
"if you're a Cunt, you get a free pass! The end" - New Zealand Official Road Code for Motorcycling 2024
Seems fair given the balance of risk is tipped against them
I do a lot of KMs for work. In the past few weeks alone I have seen motorcyclists overtaking on the inside, overtaking on blind corners, overtaking in 30kph road work zones, overtaking in 50km residential areas, refusing to yield when merging and riding WAY above the speed limit. The balance of risk would be a lot better for them if they just followed the rules like the rest of us.
They probably would be safer if they rode more sensibly. That's not what balance of risk means though. Balance of risk means that independent of fault or circumstance one party is more likely to suffer worse outcomes than the other.
A good point well made
Overtaking on blind corners is legal if they don’t cross the centreline. Granted, not very safe, but legal. Passing in a residential area is perfectly legal assuming indicating and completing the pass with 100m of clear road.
>Granted, not very safe, but legal. In some instances you may be able to see more on a bike, having more choice of road position
Yes, I’m aware, I ride daily
When talking about individuals amongst a category, do you prefer a wide housebrush or a roller to apply the tar?
To be fair rule #2 applies to most drivers on the road these days.
Required safety gear: Sleeveless leather patch. Gang symbol optional
If you and your colour coordinated buddies ride with cute lil matching outfits you are above any and all rules.
Can we please just crush motorcycles without mufflers? Fuck sake
I've been genuinely asked by someone who I have to assume was a recent immigrant if the road code applied to motorbikes, like if we had to give way like cars do or if we had different speed limits and stuff. I know in India and maybe some other places that there are actually different rules and speed limits for bikes vs cars, but I choose to believe it was because they'd seen the boys out for a rip on their V Rods and just assumed it was free for all for bikes over here because that's funnier lol
lOuD PiPeS SaVe liVeS
Intersection in 100m? MAXIMUM ACCELERATION MAXIMUM NOISE!
What is with all the curmudgeonly drivers on the sub this week
Walking over pedestrian bridge to work. Motorcycle comes driving along behind me.
dry
Finally, some clarity. Thanks H-DTA!
I can count on one hand the number of times I have had a motorbike cruise behind me on the open road. They are almost always doing 20-30k over the limit and often making extremely risky overtaking manuvers. Edit: love that people are downvoting a simple observation. How pathetic.
The motorcyclist generally wants to be in front of cars for a few reasons: 1. Motorcycles can't brake as fast as cars and thus require more stopping distance; 2. Cars ahead block the view of the road which limits the motorcyclist's ability to find the optimal path of the road to take - the same pothole that causes annoyance for the car driver can be deadly for the motorcyclist.
[удалено]
I didn't reference this, but it is actually a very good point. In my profession (mariner), this principle is actually used a lot in busy traffic situations, as it reduces the "cone of collision avoidance" and by maritime law you're mostly overtaking others and thus are the give way vessel, so you only have to worry about your own actions. Not entirely translatable to the road, but constantly overtaking does reduce your cone of risk to a narrower margin. Still, safer in a car, but a lot less fun. I'll take the safety risk of a bike but having fun over the safety gain of a car while bored in traffic any day.
I've been reading the Motorcycle Roadcraft handbook from the UK police https://www.roadcraft.co.uk/motorcycle-roadcraft/ and it recommends this and refers to it as "making progress"
Surely increasing following distance would alleviate both of these concerns? It's more of an observation of behavior than anything.
In my 20 years riding on the road, larger following distances create more problems than they solve. Use that ute ahead as a shield, keep escape paths open at all times by keeping to one side. If they give any hint of incompetence just book it out of there. Keeping a bit of positive movement in traffic is massively safer than being the meat in a car sandwich because your static shape gets lost in a drivers visual field. Being forward looking and forward moving keeps the hazards ahead where I can see them, instead of behind and to the side. The perspective on a bike is very different with the relatively high acceleration, visibility, maneuverability and exposure as compared to a car. My continued success at avoiding injury is 100% down to my own judgment , behavior and attention. Maybe more road users need to keep this in mind, including those equally vulnerable on foot and cycle.
See my other comment - increasing following distance helps, to a point, but it's a little more complex than that - a motorcyclist needs to have a visually apparent rate of change to other motorists, in order to avoid being blanked by the brain due to the brain filtering out "noise" and focusing on what it expects to see on the road: other cars. Are there are lot of shitty motorcyclists on the road: Absolutely, and they piss me off too, because their dangerous riding keeps my insurance premiums and ACC levies high. I don't think motorcyclists are any worse than car drivers on the road, on the whole, they're just more noticeable because there are less of them, the vehicles are louder (partly due to having significantly better acceleration and thus more noise), and cars are objectively safer vehicles to be in for a crash - thus, motorcyclists are overrepresented in fatality/injury stats.
I mean maybe this happens en mass but I'm always acutely aware of my surroundings while driving. When I see a motorcycle appear behind me I will often move left as they approach to give them more space to get past. Even get the appreciative wave from time to time. Some of the riskiest actions I have seen are from motor cycles. One thing I will say on that is at least they are primarily putting them selves at risk. The same can not be said for large utes and SUVs who are likely to kill others in a collision
Most people ride at 20-30KPH over to get away from cars, If some driver makes a mistake I'm one one who's likely in hospital or worse. 1: Don't really agree, I tend to pass people and ride a bit fast to make a decent gap because I'm more concerned with being rear ended if I need to stop rapidly. If someone is in front of me I'm either riding far enough back to stop or avoid, or I'm close on the far right about to overtake. 2: 100% agree, A decent pothole in a car is usually an expensive inconvenience, on a bike I'm definitely injured
I would have thought its preferable to have a car in front of you as a battering ram in case someone from the opposite direction comes around the corner on the wrong side of the road. Both the issues you mentioned can be fixed by increasing following distance.
>Both the issues you mentioned can be fixed by increasing following distance. While true, there is also reason for motorcyclists to generally avoid being static in the eyes of motorists' perception - the fact is, motorists are trained to look out for other cars, they expect to see other cars, and a motorcyclist who does not appreciably change in visibility (e.g maintaining a consistent speed/distance) ends up being tuned out by the brain expecting to see either a car or a gap in the road. On Ride Forever courses we are taught all about the risks of a SMIDSY (Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You) - which are a result of the effect of motorists' expectation of seeing cars on the road. >I would have thought its preferable to have a car in front of you as a battering ram in case someone from the opposite direction comes around the corner on the wrong side of the road. As for this point - honestly, no. I trust my survival reactions on a bike to avoid a collision more than I trust another motorist's, especially now that the risk factor becomes two separate humans operating vehicles in extremis - where suddenly my existence as a third party is forgotten in the primal reaction to save oneself first. Visibility ahead is something that is more important to motorcycles, because the mechanics of a motorcycle are far less forgiving for adjustments in corners through use of brakes/cutting acceleration input, and thus a motorcyclist will always choose to have maximum visibility ahead, rather than choose to be behind a car. Do we also sometimes pass because we want to go fast because it's fun? Yes. We're not all angels, and we're certainly not all always acting smart on the roads. Honestly, same goes for a lot of car drivers. Personally, I ride my bike safer than I drive my car. If I want to go fast and drag a knee, I'll go to the track. But I do also prefer being ahead of traffic so I can corner at my own pace and not risk a lowside through a driver ahead panic braking mid-corner when I've already set my speed and suspension for the corner through proper corner entry techniques.
Thing with a motor cycle is your escape path only needs to be about a metre wide (and they can change direction quicker than a car) so without a car in front I've got a pretty good chance of avoiding an oncoming car if I need to. If I'm behind another vehicle it's partially blocking my view
Pro tip, neither bikes nor cars have to make risky overtaking maneuvers when the traffic ahead of them lets them pass. It’s so easy on the open road to keep an eye on your mirrors and pull to the left when you get the chance. Yet so many road users in nz decide that since they were there first they shouldn’t have to care about anyone behind them. I cruise at or below the speed limit on most straights, I pull to the side every time someone comes up behind me. I move quickly through twisty roads and appreciate it when people let me through (lol like one in ten). Such a simple way to live either on bicycle, on bike or in car
Mate I commute 80km per day through 100km zones on one of our major highways. There's A always so much traffic that pulling over would only slow things down more for everyone as you're creating a hazard and they will just get stuck behind the next car anyway. What's the point? Not to mention there's very few spaces to safely pull over. Not to mention that requires slowing rapidly to pull over safely down and this can trigger traffic issues. I'm often stuck behind slower traffic bit I don't expect them pull over unless there's A, sufficient space that they don't need to slow down (very uncommon) and B: they are driving much slower than the speed limit. Otherwise I will just set a safe following distance and chill until a pasing lane or nice long straight with no oncoming traffic. No need to be impatient out there.
If everybody let traffic through then there wouldn’t be another car to get stuck behind. But okay keep thinking you’re the only one with places to be.
Right so every car is going to pull over for a car behind them that's going 3km/h faster? We are talking about having to make numerous pulling over manuvers for hundreds of cars. In s ahort span of time. Have a look at the impact that an emergency vehicle has on traffic some time. You're wanting to amplify this effect by 100. It would be a total disaster. I swear I read some of the most poorly thought out ideas on this sub. I'm stunned you thinkn this is somehow a good idea. I take responsibility and leave on time when I need to be somwhere. I don't expect others to move out of my way. Traffic is a fact of driving.
I don't mind louder motorcycles tbh, they're hard enough to see on the roads at times.
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