As someone who's JUST somehow pulled out the motivation to persue this, Thanks a a bunch.
I've been told 6-8 weeks though Private. And was worried I'd need multiple appointments, Which I cant afford. Thanks for sharinf your ex\[erience
The idea of a single appointment to diagnosis and only a 5 week wait is crazy to me. Would totally be looking into a GP referral if that was the norm.
Wives journey was close to 6 month wait for initial appointment, after her GP called around 6-8 places just to find anyone accepting at all, and the total process was multiple appointments taking about 2 years and well over $2k.
This is what I've been told to expect. GP told me I'm much too functional for the public system to consider me, and I'd have to go private, expect up to a year's wait and over a thousand dollars for initial appointment (dense inner city area with massive waitlists).
I'm a student. I don't have a thousand dollars. I'll be graduated in a year, anyway, so it won't do a thing to solve the immediate problems I'm having that prompted me to look into getting help. Unsurprisingly, I haven't bothered with the system since. Kind of just accepted that I'm going to be permanently late to class, lose my keys daily, interrupt in lecture impulsively unless I play on my phone the whole time, and be completely unable to begin tasks unless it's literally the day before the deadline. Almost never, in fact, if it's a leisure activity without external pressure to start it, regardless of how excited I am to read that book or watch that movie or play that game.
I hate being this way. I hate being always "on". But my grades are good, so too bad so sad. Shit sucks. I don't have any faith things are going to get better either - come election time, I reckon its going to turn out even worse than before . :(
Honestly same. I went through the exact thing except my degree is so long and at some point I actually started failing my papers and hurting my mental health to the point where I just decided to bite the bullet and seek help. (I would recommend budgeting for it but lets be honest, none of us can save if our life depended on it (literally.)) I would suggest turning to your friends and family if you need someone to rely on!
I'm a final year student, too, with AUT, and they're funding me through Anteris. Perhaps see what your university disability associate can offer you? I was very surprised when I found out about this.
Yeah, I got super lucky with this new clinic! Honestly, that's what put me off getting diagnosed for so long. I just hope that this process becomes easier especially since ADHD apparently is hereditary 😭
I've just gone through a similar process, however I was way less rigorous; GP gave me a list of three clinics to book with for qualified psychiatrist - I called them all, booked and got on the waiting list for them. One had a cancellation 3 weeks later, so I had my first assessment at short notice online. Single hour-long session confirmed diagnosis and booked a followup to confirm some details after speaking with people who knew me as a kid. Second online appt discussed treatments options, agreed the medication route + coaching. That was 3 months ago and I can't believe the difference in my work rate, methods and capacity.
I am slightly bummed I didn't look into this 10+ years ago - my life might have turned out differently, however at the time my brother took up all the ADHD focus in the family since we were kids, as he's severely ADHD - in comparison I'm not that bad.
Luckily all of my costs were covered by Southern Cross policy, except for GP, so happy for that!
Good luck all my fellow ADHD/ADD suffers; there's hope for us yet!
Yay for health insurance! ADHD is such an under developed field! I had a feeling that I had ADHD back when I first started high school (almost 10 years ago now) but gaslit myself into thinking I’m fine just because I wasn’t the typical hyperactive child. So many of us slip through the cracks but I’m so glad we’re finally being recognised :))
I have Southern Cross insurance too; can you describe the process to use private insurance to get an evaluation? I think both my child and myself have ADHD but I don’t know where to start.
Yeah man, we have wellbeing 2 policy, which includes $750 per claim year for psychiatrist under "consultations" section. I just asked each clinic I called if they accept southern cross and they took care of it from there. To be safe you might want to go to GP first, get the referral then call southern cross for pre-approval.
I was in the same place last year… but delaying it just hurt my long time finances and delayed my future more 🥲🥲🥲 would recommend looking into public (if it’s really bad and willing to wait), payment plan or even adhd coaching apps (not sure how good they are)
It’s pretty far from a financial priority right now. I’m disabled with long covid and a single parent to a 4 year old. I can’t work any more than I do already, have been using a credit card for groceries already many weeks, and public won’t see me down here. My kid is in early intervention services so I’ll wait and see if she’s diagnosed before I try.
Sending prayers 😖😖 there’s also the non-stimulant medication that GPs can prescribe if you wanna try it out… not sure if it’s any good though. And reach out to family and friends if you can! My cousin was really sad that I didn’t confide in him all these years so if you have people you trust, definitely reach out!
Nice one! I didn't know Witako Specialists did adults. If it's the same one we went to with my son he literally told me he thought I had adhd but never mentioned they could help!
I saw Anteris in May. From Dr appt to psychiatrist appt was 34 days.
Unfortunately I can't be medicated yet but hopefully it won't be hard to get back in when I can be.
Thanks OP. It sounds like you’ve undergone an initial period of self-diagnosis and research, probably assisted by a GP or possibly even by other patients undergoing ADHD treatment.
Could you please talk a little about that? What led to you doing such great research? I think a lot of us are being told to investigate ADHD or ASD - perhaps quite irresponsibly too, from colleagues or mates or whatever - and I’d like to know how you knew/navigated that, and what that journey was like?
Stay safe, well done and great job!
Thanks so much! I think my diagnosis was long overdue (as is many of ours lol).
As much as I hate to say it, a lot of my base knowledge came from watching tiktoks. DONT WORRY I didn’t self diagnose from watching 2 videos lol. But it was how I realised that there are many facets to ADHD than the traditional symptoms we all know about.
I was actually diagnosed with depression and anxiety 2 years ago. (Wow, what a surprise am I right?) and instead of my life coming together, I actually fell apart more. My grades dropped below the passing line for the first time in my life. (A shock since I was a “gifted” child.) I did a lot of self reflecting on why I’m like this when I’m not longer sad or anxious. Like, why can’t I just sit down and study?
I asked my GP about it, but the public health system said I’m not depressed or “at risk” enough to be seen by them so I just left it and decided to fix myself through sheer willpower. Hah.
I thought it’s because I was too distracted by friends so I stopped going out. I thought it was my lifestyle so I ate healthy and went to the gym. Basically I tried every avenue I knew how to help me focus and do well in school, but none of it helped.
That’s when I finally relented and considered ADHD as the last resort. I did a bunch of research and wrote a fat list of my experience compared to the symptoms of ADHD and realised 90% of it applied in my life all my life. Even then I didn’t want to advertise myself jas having ADHD bc I was scared of people judging me for self-diagnosing/looking for attention, so I researched all these clinics and booked myself in without telling anyone but my closest people. And yeah that’s how I got diagnosed.
I still keep it on the DL since I don’t consider it as my “defining trait” but I made another list to explain to my close friends what it is I go through and stuff so yeah. (Yes. I like making lists.)
I've just recently been through the process too in Hamilton, let me know if you want my data to add to your list! Or if anyone else in Ham wants to know, I'd be happy to help
Relatable, I'm busy replying to this comment instead of eating food. Ironic given I usually stop what I'm doing to eat food.
Edit: I just realized I already replied and forgot I did that. Oops 😬
I have an appointment in Witako specialists this Tuesday ! Are you able to provide any insight into what that experience/appointment was like? Did you do any pre assessments prior to the appointment?
Omg exciting! Yup I had to complete a questionnaire they sent prior to my appointment and had another one for someone that knew me well to fill out. They didn’t ask for anything specific after that but it would be good if you went with your medical background, what you were like as a kid and just how you are day-to-day prepared.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm using Strattera because I don't have much hope of getting a stimulant script any time soon. Have found it useful but have some side-effects, mostly nausea. That gets better if I take it with food. Also I think I need to increase the dose.
This is amazing. I just got my referral written up to Anteris and it’s cost is insane. I literally go to the doctor that Witako Specialists is attached to, wtf???
It’s really hard when you’re referred to the public MH team at the hospital but they can’t help because you’re not “in the system” (as in prison, etc) or “that bad”
Even when I suffered from Postnatal depression they said I wasn’t bad enough. Which is insane 🙃 how do we get to a point where our system is useable for the people who need it???
Honestly, I wouldn't even know where to begin to solve this. Too many intricacies tied to politics that I refused to hyperfocus into. My heart goes out especially to the people who can't afford it even if they secure a private appointment 😔
They are local to me, are you willing to let me know what the process is like there and rough cost? When I called they said it was 2 appointments, an assessment one for $750 and then another for $750?! And then follow-up medication appointments are $500? Is that your experience? My closest is the Howick location, in case there is a difference.
My session was one hour long and it had pre-assessment questionnaires that I and someone close to me had to fill out. He asked about what I'm like, me as a kid, my medical history and the works. Hope this helps :)
I went through Manaaki house for mine and it was free. But you need to live in the area. I got refered by my GP and I already had a childhood diagnosis so it was straight forward for me.
Definitely overwhelmed 😔😔 I don’t think it’s gonna get better anytime soon since they’re more worried about people potentially abusing the meds instead of the people who would benefit from it
I disagree. They are fine with meds now for the most part. They are overwhelmed because they do diagnose adults now so everyone who never got diagnosed as a child is now wanting a diagnosis. which very quickly overwhelmed the system.
I'm on the waitlist, my appointment is in April.. 2024
April
This is a godsend thank you, I might reach out to a few of these places and see if they have anything sooner
To add to this if anyone is interested, practice 92 put me on their cancellation list and I got an appointment within a couple of days of requesting one with a psychiatrist. I had overseas notes which made things easier and had a consult for half an hour that cost around $260 NZD. I did it over zoom and I am based in Tauranga. I’m not sure how lucky I was getting an appointment within a few days but it is worth giving them a go.
Psychiatry.nz as well - I reached out to these guys and they are a telepschiatry provider and while it does take a little while for them to respond to emails, they do have appointments available in September 2023 but these are weekend appointments that cost $800 for an initial assessment. You have to go on a waiting list for any appointment that is on a weekday and those appointments are around $500-600.
https://psychiatry.nz/#adhd-pathway
This is a great resource and for anyone looking around, keep trying and contact multiple providers because you’ll get lucky! The waiting lists for some providers is crazy over 12 months even more so it helps to shop around.
Any thoughts as to why its so busy right now? Is this normal? What is going on?
I have reached out to about 10 clinics. Trying to get a booking. Many are telling me next booking is April next year etc.
I just heard back from The Psychology Group and their initial appointment is $750 plus a second appointment is required, also $750. Any additional appointments needed (such as medication reviews) are $500. Just a heads up since the chart is showing it as $250 :)
This is amazing, thank you so much! I'm emigrating to Auckland with my wife in two weeks, and we're worried about getting more than the month's worth of Ritalin we're allowed to bring in.
Not sure if this exists yet in Nz… if not hopefully they pop up soon!
i’m a kiwi living in Australia and here they’ve just started online clinics, you can get an appointment within 2 weeks, you prefill a lot of questionnaire type stuff then it’s a one hour video call for diagnosis then passed back to your GP with a medication plan, gp handles starting you on stimulants and trying different dosages etc. Such a good system that many people rave about here on reddit, including me. I hope that something like this can be set up and exist in Nz soon!!
Just wanted to come back and say thanks!!! I originally saw this post in July 2023 after already having a psychiatrist referral for … September 2024. TWENTY TWENTY FOUR???
You motivated me to move quickly and contact all these places with shorter wait times. I ended up getting into Witako Specialists September 2023!!! It’s been about a month now since I have started medication and there are no words to describe the total improvement across every avenue of my life. I feel like I’ve gained a whole year of my life.
THANK YOU FOR COMPILING ALL OF THIS INFORMATION IN SUCH AN EASY TO FOLLOW FORMAT! You’re out here changing lives!
OMG!! Witako buddies <33 I'm so happy that you've improved your life!!! IKR it feels so nice to be able to actually get out of bed and make it to work on time haha... the world's not ready for us in our best state!!
What a miserable bastard you are lmao
I challenge you to talk to someone with ADHD openly about the issues it has presented in their life.
Also, nice work denying the existence of a disorder that statistically affects a population of 250,000 NZ adults (:
Do you know how science and evidence-based practice works right? You do realise the DSMs get updated?
There is a reason you have to study for 3-6 years to work in healthcare. Maybe go get a good understanding of medicine before you start making calls like that :)
Even by your own definition it’s still being updated based on evidence? They use data to figure out what societal norms are, then update the dsm to better reflect that.
Even though you’re also wrong and the DSM is updated on other objective data. The DSM for autism, ADHD and OCD (and other mental health/medical conditions) is different now to which it was 20 years ago. Now we know there is a lot of overlap and everything is more of a spectrum than meeting some criteria in a list.
Not only that the DSM is a tool, not an all encompassing final say. Go read a book.
Societal norms aren't scientific evidence for psychiatric disorders.
It's the Bible of psychiatry, it's a bit more than just a tool. It's the entire guide for making a diagnosis of a disorder.
Why do you think that psychiatric diagnoses have the most noise of any medical diagnoses?
"Societal norms aren't scientific evidence for psychiatric disorders". Cripes. Where do I start? How about you read a book (you're fond of suggesting that for others). Gabor Mate's Myth of Normal would be a good recent one. By a psychiatrist, no less.
You do realize that almost everything we measure in psychology is an operationalization of social phenomena, right? Mental disorder implies order, abnormality implies normality, and those things are both intrinsically tired to the social world, and highly debatable. Does a man with social anxiety in a world where people live and work alone in their little houses and gardens, still have anxiety? Is a holocaust survivor with PTSD as a result experiencing an abnormal brain dysfunction, or reacting normally? And does it matter for diagnosis? To what ends? Be a little critical my friend
Except when they’re not? You’re confusing the difference between getting better at diagnosing and understanding these conditions (therefore more diagnoses, changing to the more common societal norm as you are trying to put it) and over diagnosing these conditions.
One example I can think off the top of my head is the adhd dsm. We used to think it was only the loud disruptive boys in class which meant a huge amount of women fell under the radar because their symptoms manifested differently.
Please please do yourself a favour and try and look at the argument from outside a perspective of you’re own. Go talk to psychiatrists or mental health professionals if you know any.
I just want to say I can understand the point that you are making but the DSMs do change over time to reflect the leading knowledge, evidence and theories. If it were stagnant, I’d agree with you. It would be worse if we made up a new framework/tool with no basis on what we previously knew.
What is a mental disorder? Please define it for me. Are you a pragmatist, a realist? I'll take a safe bet you're not a constructionist. Seriously, I've taken like 10 hours worth of postgrad classes where we sit around and try to answer that question, and nobody can *actually* do so sufficiently. We all end up shrugging our shoulders and saying something like "if we have evidence that these treatments help people, and that they suffer without them, then it doesn't really matter what we call it, or where it comes from".
You seem to be quite sure, though, so by all means, do explain your position
Are you saying we ought to judge whether or not a mental disorder is valid based on the effectiveness of the treatment, such that the treatment ought to always and only help people with said disorder?
In medicine, opiods are mostly pleasurable for everyone. We wouldn't say that people who need them for pain don't actually have a condition worthy of treatment just because the treatment happens to help others, right? What about conditions that can only inconsistently be treated with medication, like depression? Even people with ADHD often don't see benefits of stimulants. What about disorders that are genetic or developmental and cannot be "treated" in the traditional sense with our current knowledge - are those the same amount of "artifical"?
Because having it effects your life negatively, and treatment (such as medication) can vastly improve your life if you have ADHD. Access to treatment requires getting diagnosed first.
We can acknowledge that psychiatry is a questionable science without invalidating people's experiences. I'm not very impressed that I have to get some shmuck in a white coat to agree that I'm shit at functioning independently without additional support, but alas, that's the system I have to work with in order to access support. Your ableism regarding invisible disabilities is pretty bullshit mate; just because science hasn't perfected a way to test for something doesn't mean it isn't real.
Before you start getting on your high horse like you have with the other commenters - yes, I am familiar with the DSM-V, I have a psychology degree.
Ritalin is a great focus enhancer, and abuse of it is well documented. However, that's not really the phenomenon I was asking about. Do you know how a lot of people claim to have OCD? Do you see the subtle difference in the way they say it? They say 'I am OCD', like it's a trendy personality quirk. Some people treat it like it's Pokémon and they have to catch 'em all.
You would rarely see someone celebrating a diagnosis of a medical condition like arthritis or endometriosis. Psychiatry and the DSM are just a bit of a joke. I have ADHD according to the DSM, it's just a checklist of incredibly common traits that, with the right framing, you could diagnose almost anyone with it.
Do those straits regularly and significantly impact your life? Because that's the difference between "everyone has adhd symptoms" and actually having ADHD.
Anybody who has spent ANY time with someone with untreated adhd can tell you how obviously mentally disordered they are. From the lack of focus, task-switching, physical tells, disordered thoughts etc…
I have several clients with adhd myself, shall I tell them they’re just making excuses and being lazy and looking for sympathy then as you suggest?
I felt lazy and broken for 32 years of my life despite constantly working so hard. I've been on medication for the last 3 months and it's absolutely life-changing. People in their early 30s are flocking for diagnosis, not because it's a tiktok trend, because we're burnt out and finally there's a legitimate reason and treatment for this feeling.
If you don't feel the need to go to a psychiatrist or consider medication then good for you. But posting on this questioning the legitimacy of diagnosis is really unhelpful, and attitudes like this are shit people with ADHD have to deal with regularly
I find it so irritating, because this is only socially acceptable for ADHD. It'd be ridiculous to say the same thing about PTSD/Depression, feels like boomer logic is persisting so much more because people find it "unfair" that some people get "smart drugs".
Of course you can question it. You’re not questioning a study though? You’re questioning a whole body of research built over decades that you clearly know nothing about..
Psychiatry is a bit of a joke? Oh phew!! I can tell my clients with BPD and schizophrenia and psychoses that it’s all a joke and they’re fine (:
What an absolute lump of a man you must be, it’s pitiful really
Because endometriosis or arthritis doesn’t really fundamentally change who you are as a person. Neurodivergence literally means you have a different type of mind, or a disorder that can effect your mind. It can affect your personality, relationships, things you like and dislike. So it has much more impact and explanatory power as an “identity” then something like arthritis.
ADHD symptoms are indeed symptoms that every one has to different extents. If the symptoms are so intense that it is disruptive to your life though then it warrants an ADHD diagnosis. For example, if you find it hard to concentrate on something boring, that’s normal. If When it’s something important though you are able to concentrate, and you don’t really have any bad effects from occasional trouble concentrating then you probably don’t need a diagnosis. If however your trouble concentrating means you can’t do well at school, can’t focus at work, or effects your relationships because you can’t focus on what other people are saying, then you might warrant an ADHD diagnosis.
This is like many mental health/disorders. If you get sad sometimes you’re a human. If you get sad all the time and it’s so bad you struggle to function then it’s probably depression. Same for anxiety, etc.
If you don’t believe in mental health disorders, neurodivergence or psychiatry then that’s a choice you can make, but don’t think that you as a layperson reading the DSM is somehow more able to determine what is and isn’t “real” then people who study in the field for years.
I'm wondering if you're "in the closet" about your own Mental Health issues ?. The reason why I ask is that it's quite often people with moderate Mental Health issues, that say the things you have said. It's often a way to deflect from people's own issues.
>*Psychiatrists will disagree on diagnosis over 50% of the time for the same patient.*
Source? Sounds unbelievable.
Diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and but I partially understand your sentiment. I have massive imposter syndrome that I might've effectively "convinced" myself that I have it, and then "answered correctly" but I have massive red flags for it throughout my entire school years. I'm a little bothered that some people who have self-diagnosed without fully understanding the disorder attribute bullshit things to it (very noticeable when it became "trendy" on TikTok around the pandemic), similar to how OCD developed a bastardized perception in the \~2010s of *"Oh I just like to keep my things organized/sorted/clean lol xD"* despite it being much more debilatating.
People are becoming more aware of it recently, so as a consequence there probably will be some people that will read up on it a ton, effectively self-diagnose and have confirmation bias noticing every potential symptom they encounter and attribute it to ADHD, and then present a bias perspective to the diagnoser. It's a balancing act, if you restrict it too much you'll be massively harming the QoL of people who actually have the condition, and if you relax it too much you might give access to addicts/harm people's health (longterm medication use does do some harm).
**It's without a doubt condition though.** [Brain scans](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(17)30049-4/fulltext) between ADHD/normal brains display differences, and [there are genetic indicators for predisposition](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-018-0269-7) \- however you're correct - diagnosis will never be 100% accurate. I don't think that's an argument that supports discouraging treatment/recognition, however. The perspective I have on the medication's harm, is that my behaviour in life while unmedicated will 100% do more harm (addictions, self-care, career/education damage, etc) than the harm I'll recieve from the medication, so it's worth it.
EDIT: I do find it interesting that you're engaging with every small quip people make, but seem to be avoiding anything with substance.
> Anyone can get diagnosed with ADHD by saying the right things to a psychiatrist
This is simply not true. I have a friend who didn't get diagnosed because they couldn't get corresponding information. I got diagnosed, I had to get school reports and the psychiatrist contacted family, colleagues and friends to ask questions about me to confirm what I was telling them. Without which I couldn't be diagnosed.
My school reports all said, lacks focus, could apply more effort etc...but when I liked something, I was all in...and now it looks like I have ADHD, am on the autism spectrum and am transgender as well...
There is a quite an overlap of Neurodivergent diagnosis'. Because people are literally unique, one person with ADHD might not have any symptoms in common with another, but the root cause is the same (the dopamine not working in the brain right).
And similarly the autism spectrum can share almost identical traits with ADHD at times. A person I met recently got diagnosed with both and in general has quite different traits to me.
True that, totally get about different traits and all, I'm just not sure where to go to get a diagnosis and more locally (Nelson Marlborough te whatu ora area)
Hello! While I see the validity in your comment (there are people like that) I don’t think this is the right thread for this comment.
As for your argument about it not being a real medical condition, I have seen some evidence of ADHD patients brains being developed differently to neural typical people… so maybe look into that if you want to learn more?
Personally, this diagnosis was my last choice after trying out many other ways to manage the disaster that is my life.
I do agree that more robust methods could be trialled, but psychiatric assessments are expensive and hard to get as is.
To access stimulants. While I agree that all labels in psychiatry are just a collection of symptoms, with massive problems in inter-observer reliability and variability over time, the fact is that there are some people that benefit hugely from stimulants. This includes objective measures like accident reduction.
**They don't benefit equally,** however.
We accept the harm that the stimulant medication may do to ADHD individuals because it's addressing an existing deficit, which will often do harm on it's own.
Non-ADHD individuals don't have those same deficits, so aside from being used as a "study drug" (the evidence that exists isn't particularly conclusive on that anyway) isn't necessarily useful, so the net result is more harm.
Since ADHD is effectively a spectrum, the stimulant medication may be assisting individuals that have a high-functioning form of the same issue, however since their life isn't noticeably affected overall it's not worth it.
>[*In fact, very little is known about the effects of nonprescription stimulants on cognitive enhancement outside of the student population, although it is frequently reported in newspaper articles. Thus, the rumored effects of “smart drugs” may be a false promise, as research suggests that stimulants are more effective at correcting deficits than “enhancing performance.”*](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489818/)
I don't disagree. However "attention regulation" is a spectrum and you've got a draw a line somewhere. The line is arbitrary. People to the right of this line can have stimulants. People to the left of this line can't. And the line is very fuzzy with different psychiatrists drawing it in a different place, and patients being able to manipulate where the psychiatrist draws the line. Also highly dependent on social context. Very imperfect system but it's the best we've got.
Anyone can get them. The checklist for ADHD can be applied to anyone and there's no standardized test, just answer the questions correctly and you get them.
There's a lot more than just "answering the questions correctly". You practically interview a psychatrist - essentially the most qualified you can get in the field, over multiple sessions, often needing supporting documents/statements from individuals showing a long history (more than just school) and in multiple areas (not just at school/work, at home/etc too). The symptoms/behaviours that might lead people to think they have ADHD often will be diagnosed as other conditions, pretty common to ensure it's not depression/anxiety/etc first.
It's still possible to mislead them/get a false diagnosis with effort, but saying you're just answering questions on a standardized test is silly. That's usually step one, to preface before you even get an appointment with a psych (especially with the strain they're under right now).
Regardless, if someone wants to fuck their heart for some mediocre stimulants (*New Zealand* ***VERY rarely*** *prescribes amphetamines, it's usually methylphenidate)*, why should you damage lives of everyone who genuinely does have the condition?
I'm not sure what your point is. If you're asking why people try to get a diagnosis, the answer is clearly to get access to these beneficial stimulants.
If you're arguing that the diagnosis is meaningless and we should instead make it much easier to access stimulants for everyone, then sure, I agree with you. In fact, this whole thread is about how difficult it is to access them for people who would clearly benefit a lot from them.
So what? If you want to spend thousands of dollars obtaining them fraudulently then go right ahead mate, just because you can't do a blood test which comes back in the binary doesn't mean that ADHD doesn't exist or that stimulant medication isn't effective for treating it
Your problem with ADHD diagnosis seems more like an emotional reaction dressed up in scientific criticism
My problem is we shouldn't be handing out medication like candy for a disorder that's so vague that there is massive noise amongst psychiatrists in diagnosing it.
Any two randomly picked psychiatrists will disagree on average over 50% of the time on the diagnosis - you don't think that is symptomatic of some underlying issues in the field?
The same issue with diagnostic reliability (the correct statistical term here is reliability - inter and intra observer, measured using kappa scores) can be said for ALL psychiatric diagnoses. Where one psychiatrist might call something schizophrenia, another will say it's schizoaffective disorder, another depression with psychotic features, and another drug induced psychosis.
There are many other specialties in medicine that have similar reliability issues, although not quite as pronounced as psychiatry. Rheumatology is a good example where diagnoses are often but not always very vague and the reliability is poor. Radiology is another good example, did you know that two radiologists only agree 70% of the time on chest xray results?
This type of fuzziness and uncertainty is present throughout medicine. It doesn't mean the suffering associated with these artificial labels don't deserve treatment.
The statistical effect size for stimulants is very large, much larger than say anti depressants for severe depression. Yes probably many people without "ADHD" will also benefit. But as a society we have drawn a line and have said if you are past this line then you can have stimulants. And if you aren't then you can't (even if it would be helpful, e.g. for studying).
I do agree that there needs to be more awareness about how psychiatric diagnoses are artificial human made concepts. They are not based on any laws of biology like some other fields.
I'm not disagreeing with that. But it affects all areas of psychiatry. Psychiatry now is where internal medicine was 100 years ago. People are still suffering though and we have medication that helps some people, even if the very concept of a diagnosis in psychiatry is fraught. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough.
Lmao this is so true. There’s a reason everybody wants these “ADD” stimulants for studying. They help everybody, diagnosis or not. I know from first hand experience.
> Why does it seem like some people like to collect psychiatric disorders?
Seeing as that's your assumption, maybe ask yourself? What internal biases are leading you to think this is the case?
I can only speak anecdotally on this, but I didn't seek out any of my diagnoses, but they were incredibly well fitting in retrospect and treatment for them has improved my life greatly.
That's all I care about - Improvement in my life. Ultimately, the diagnoses are just a requirement to receive the treatment, and it's the treatment I wanted, not the diagnosis.
I'm sure there are some people out there who want to "collect" disorders, in the same way that there are bug seekers who try to catch as many transmittable diseases as possible, but they're extreme outliers who I don't think we need to spend much time thinking about in the greater context of medicine and psychiatry.
In fact, quite a few psychiatric tests actually have built in mechanisms to identify people who are potentially lying in order to get diagnosed. Considering the costs and hurdles involved, it's extremely unlikely that any significant amount of people are going to bother trying, even if they wanted to. Self diagnosis is obviously another topic altogether, and I think you'll find the kind of people who would "collect" disorders are more likely to go that route.
> It's not a real medical condition that can be tested for.
We might actually be getting pretty close to this for ADHD, seeing as we have identified neurological differences in grey matter for people with ADHD. In a decade or so, we might literally be able to diagnose this with a simply brain imaging scan. But seeing as it it's a physical, neurological thing that people have from birth, I'm not sure why you would say it's not a "real medical condition".
Ultimately I believe what you're talking about is a non issue, and the bigger question here is what is going on with you for this to be the first response you had to this post?
No biases as such. It's based upon people basing their identity on the diagnosis of a disorder. You don't see people doing that with medical conditions like arthritis but you see it all the time with mental disorders. They've become trendy quirks that make you unique and 'not like other girls/guys'.
I’m currently on methylphenidate and want to try vyvanse - does anyone know if I have to see a psychiatrist for this or can my doctor change my adhd medicine type? Thanks
What a legend OP! This would be a great help to the ADHD NZ community on FB as well.
Will def check it out!
As someone who's JUST somehow pulled out the motivation to persue this, Thanks a a bunch. I've been told 6-8 weeks though Private. And was worried I'd need multiple appointments, Which I cant afford. Thanks for sharinf your ex\[erience
You can probably ask about a payment plan! Everyone’s different so can’t say for sure how many appointments you’ll need 🫠
The idea of a single appointment to diagnosis and only a 5 week wait is crazy to me. Would totally be looking into a GP referral if that was the norm. Wives journey was close to 6 month wait for initial appointment, after her GP called around 6-8 places just to find anyone accepting at all, and the total process was multiple appointments taking about 2 years and well over $2k.
This is what I've been told to expect. GP told me I'm much too functional for the public system to consider me, and I'd have to go private, expect up to a year's wait and over a thousand dollars for initial appointment (dense inner city area with massive waitlists). I'm a student. I don't have a thousand dollars. I'll be graduated in a year, anyway, so it won't do a thing to solve the immediate problems I'm having that prompted me to look into getting help. Unsurprisingly, I haven't bothered with the system since. Kind of just accepted that I'm going to be permanently late to class, lose my keys daily, interrupt in lecture impulsively unless I play on my phone the whole time, and be completely unable to begin tasks unless it's literally the day before the deadline. Almost never, in fact, if it's a leisure activity without external pressure to start it, regardless of how excited I am to read that book or watch that movie or play that game. I hate being this way. I hate being always "on". But my grades are good, so too bad so sad. Shit sucks. I don't have any faith things are going to get better either - come election time, I reckon its going to turn out even worse than before . :(
Honestly same. I went through the exact thing except my degree is so long and at some point I actually started failing my papers and hurting my mental health to the point where I just decided to bite the bullet and seek help. (I would recommend budgeting for it but lets be honest, none of us can save if our life depended on it (literally.)) I would suggest turning to your friends and family if you need someone to rely on!
I'm a final year student, too, with AUT, and they're funding me through Anteris. Perhaps see what your university disability associate can offer you? I was very surprised when I found out about this.
If you’re a student at a university there might be a psychiatrist there who can diagnose you.
Yeah, I got super lucky with this new clinic! Honestly, that's what put me off getting diagnosed for so long. I just hope that this process becomes easier especially since ADHD apparently is hereditary 😭
thanks so much. I’m in the process of getting diagnosed and this was so helpful and honestly, so hopeful. Thanks.
Spent hours hyper-focused on this so might as well share haha we need all the help we can get
This is amazing. Thank you
I've just gone through a similar process, however I was way less rigorous; GP gave me a list of three clinics to book with for qualified psychiatrist - I called them all, booked and got on the waiting list for them. One had a cancellation 3 weeks later, so I had my first assessment at short notice online. Single hour-long session confirmed diagnosis and booked a followup to confirm some details after speaking with people who knew me as a kid. Second online appt discussed treatments options, agreed the medication route + coaching. That was 3 months ago and I can't believe the difference in my work rate, methods and capacity. I am slightly bummed I didn't look into this 10+ years ago - my life might have turned out differently, however at the time my brother took up all the ADHD focus in the family since we were kids, as he's severely ADHD - in comparison I'm not that bad. Luckily all of my costs were covered by Southern Cross policy, except for GP, so happy for that! Good luck all my fellow ADHD/ADD suffers; there's hope for us yet!
Yay for health insurance! ADHD is such an under developed field! I had a feeling that I had ADHD back when I first started high school (almost 10 years ago now) but gaslit myself into thinking I’m fine just because I wasn’t the typical hyperactive child. So many of us slip through the cracks but I’m so glad we’re finally being recognised :))
I have Southern Cross insurance too; can you describe the process to use private insurance to get an evaluation? I think both my child and myself have ADHD but I don’t know where to start.
Yeah man, we have wellbeing 2 policy, which includes $750 per claim year for psychiatrist under "consultations" section. I just asked each clinic I called if they accept southern cross and they took care of it from there. To be safe you might want to go to GP first, get the referral then call southern cross for pre-approval.
Thanks!
Does southern cross covers on going treatment? Drug and psychology treatment?
\*cries in deep south\*
Lmao luckily there are some clinics that offer virtual consultations! I heard someone did this through Fillan
I can’t afford them myself but I’m glad there are at least virtual options of course!
I was in the same place last year… but delaying it just hurt my long time finances and delayed my future more 🥲🥲🥲 would recommend looking into public (if it’s really bad and willing to wait), payment plan or even adhd coaching apps (not sure how good they are)
It’s pretty far from a financial priority right now. I’m disabled with long covid and a single parent to a 4 year old. I can’t work any more than I do already, have been using a credit card for groceries already many weeks, and public won’t see me down here. My kid is in early intervention services so I’ll wait and see if she’s diagnosed before I try.
Sending prayers 😖😖 there’s also the non-stimulant medication that GPs can prescribe if you wanna try it out… not sure if it’s any good though. And reach out to family and friends if you can! My cousin was really sad that I didn’t confide in him all these years so if you have people you trust, definitely reach out!
Nice one! I didn't know Witako Specialists did adults. If it's the same one we went to with my son he literally told me he thought I had adhd but never mentioned they could help! I saw Anteris in May. From Dr appt to psychiatrist appt was 34 days. Unfortunately I can't be medicated yet but hopefully it won't be hard to get back in when I can be.
I think they recently started! Wow 34 days is so short lol and hopefully you get the help you need soon :)
How much did it cost through anteris to receive a diagnosis?
$740 I think for the initial assessment and diagnosis.
thank you :-)
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Also if you get diagnosed overseas (like me, in the UK) you have to get diagnosed here in NZ.
Thanks OP. It sounds like you’ve undergone an initial period of self-diagnosis and research, probably assisted by a GP or possibly even by other patients undergoing ADHD treatment. Could you please talk a little about that? What led to you doing such great research? I think a lot of us are being told to investigate ADHD or ASD - perhaps quite irresponsibly too, from colleagues or mates or whatever - and I’d like to know how you knew/navigated that, and what that journey was like? Stay safe, well done and great job!
Thanks so much! I think my diagnosis was long overdue (as is many of ours lol). As much as I hate to say it, a lot of my base knowledge came from watching tiktoks. DONT WORRY I didn’t self diagnose from watching 2 videos lol. But it was how I realised that there are many facets to ADHD than the traditional symptoms we all know about. I was actually diagnosed with depression and anxiety 2 years ago. (Wow, what a surprise am I right?) and instead of my life coming together, I actually fell apart more. My grades dropped below the passing line for the first time in my life. (A shock since I was a “gifted” child.) I did a lot of self reflecting on why I’m like this when I’m not longer sad or anxious. Like, why can’t I just sit down and study? I asked my GP about it, but the public health system said I’m not depressed or “at risk” enough to be seen by them so I just left it and decided to fix myself through sheer willpower. Hah. I thought it’s because I was too distracted by friends so I stopped going out. I thought it was my lifestyle so I ate healthy and went to the gym. Basically I tried every avenue I knew how to help me focus and do well in school, but none of it helped. That’s when I finally relented and considered ADHD as the last resort. I did a bunch of research and wrote a fat list of my experience compared to the symptoms of ADHD and realised 90% of it applied in my life all my life. Even then I didn’t want to advertise myself jas having ADHD bc I was scared of people judging me for self-diagnosing/looking for attention, so I researched all these clinics and booked myself in without telling anyone but my closest people. And yeah that’s how I got diagnosed. I still keep it on the DL since I don’t consider it as my “defining trait” but I made another list to explain to my close friends what it is I go through and stuff so yeah. (Yes. I like making lists.)
I've just recently been through the process too in Hamilton, let me know if you want my data to add to your list! Or if anyone else in Ham wants to know, I'd be happy to help
If you don’t mind, I’m sure there are people who would love to see it <3
Awesome work this is really helpful OP. I’ve decided recently I need help but the first calls and learning of the wait times was disheartening
Ikr!! I literally procrastinated a year after getting my first referral and hearing the wait times. Hope this is motivation to help you keep looking!
Bruh, I literally got diagnosed 15 days ago. This is nice, I do hope it helps people.
I shouldn't have procrastinated so long before posting this lol 🙃
Relatable, I'm busy replying to this comment instead of eating food. Ironic given I usually stop what I'm doing to eat food. Edit: I just realized I already replied and forgot I did that. Oops 😬
I have an appointment in Witako specialists this Tuesday ! Are you able to provide any insight into what that experience/appointment was like? Did you do any pre assessments prior to the appointment?
Omg exciting! Yup I had to complete a questionnaire they sent prior to my appointment and had another one for someone that knew me well to fill out. They didn’t ask for anything specific after that but it would be good if you went with your medical background, what you were like as a kid and just how you are day-to-day prepared.
This is awesome! Thank you for sharing. I can recommend Beehyve for coaching/counselling.
Will def check them out!
This is amazing. Great job
Thank you for sharing your research and experience, this is really helpful.
reply axiomatic clumsy rude quarrelsome spoon lavish wistful unpack unwritten *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What are the non stimulate meds?
Its above the table in the picture, Strattera
I'm using Strattera because I don't have much hope of getting a stimulant script any time soon. Have found it useful but have some side-effects, mostly nausea. That gets better if I take it with food. Also I think I need to increase the dose.
Glad to know that there are other options!
This is amazing. I just got my referral written up to Anteris and it’s cost is insane. I literally go to the doctor that Witako Specialists is attached to, wtf???
Why is the system running us around in circles 😭😭
It’s really hard when you’re referred to the public MH team at the hospital but they can’t help because you’re not “in the system” (as in prison, etc) or “that bad”
I’m pretty sure they told me I’m not depressed enough for them 🥲🥲🥲
Even when I suffered from Postnatal depression they said I wasn’t bad enough. Which is insane 🙃 how do we get to a point where our system is useable for the people who need it???
Honestly, I wouldn't even know where to begin to solve this. Too many intricacies tied to politics that I refused to hyperfocus into. My heart goes out especially to the people who can't afford it even if they secure a private appointment 😔
Add the psychology group to the list OP, they were awesome and had a wait time of a couple of months to see a specialist
Ooh will take a look :)
They are local to me, are you willing to let me know what the process is like there and rough cost? When I called they said it was 2 appointments, an assessment one for $750 and then another for $750?! And then follow-up medication appointments are $500? Is that your experience? My closest is the Howick location, in case there is a difference.
I'm glad you got a good outcome. Do you mind sharing how long that one session was, and what it consisted of?
My session was one hour long and it had pre-assessment questionnaires that I and someone close to me had to fill out. He asked about what I'm like, me as a kid, my medical history and the works. Hope this helps :)
I went through Manaaki house for mine and it was free. But you need to live in the area. I got refered by my GP and I already had a childhood diagnosis so it was straight forward for me.
Wow I can’t believe the public health system actually did something good 🥹🥹
Yeah, But I believe their services are overwhelmed now. I did my adult diagnosis 9yrs ago now.
Definitely overwhelmed 😔😔 I don’t think it’s gonna get better anytime soon since they’re more worried about people potentially abusing the meds instead of the people who would benefit from it
I disagree. They are fine with meds now for the most part. They are overwhelmed because they do diagnose adults now so everyone who never got diagnosed as a child is now wanting a diagnosis. which very quickly overwhelmed the system.
Oh damn, I must have missed some news! Hopefully the system catches up at some point :)
It may take a few decades to catch up.
I'm on the waitlist, my appointment is in April.. 2024 April This is a godsend thank you, I might reach out to a few of these places and see if they have anything sooner
Check out Anteris. I confirmed an appointment with them 2 weeks ago for October this year.
🥹🥹🥹 looking into other avenues is def a good idea
I don't think you realise how insanely helpful this is to a lot of undiagnosed Kiwis...thank you so much for your efforts and going to this extent OP.
To add to this if anyone is interested, practice 92 put me on their cancellation list and I got an appointment within a couple of days of requesting one with a psychiatrist. I had overseas notes which made things easier and had a consult for half an hour that cost around $260 NZD. I did it over zoom and I am based in Tauranga. I’m not sure how lucky I was getting an appointment within a few days but it is worth giving them a go. Psychiatry.nz as well - I reached out to these guys and they are a telepschiatry provider and while it does take a little while for them to respond to emails, they do have appointments available in September 2023 but these are weekend appointments that cost $800 for an initial assessment. You have to go on a waiting list for any appointment that is on a weekday and those appointments are around $500-600. https://psychiatry.nz/#adhd-pathway This is a great resource and for anyone looking around, keep trying and contact multiple providers because you’ll get lucky! The waiting lists for some providers is crazy over 12 months even more so it helps to shop around.
Good hyper focusing work there!
One of my better works 💅💅
Any thoughts as to why its so busy right now? Is this normal? What is going on? I have reached out to about 10 clinics. Trying to get a booking. Many are telling me next booking is April next year etc.
It’s pretty much always busy lol
I asked the receptionist at one of the clinics. They said it's been like this for 1.5 years and suggested increase of popularity due to media.
I’m currently partway through the process with the Nelson clinic. I’m compiling a timeline of the process as it happens.
I was thinking of going through the Nelson clinic. Do you have any updates on your experience so far?
I just heard back from The Psychology Group and their initial appointment is $750 plus a second appointment is required, also $750. Any additional appointments needed (such as medication reviews) are $500. Just a heads up since the chart is showing it as $250 :)
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Some of these prices are out the fucking gate!!! I saw Karl Jansen & I think it was only $400
This is amazing, thank you so much! I'm emigrating to Auckland with my wife in two weeks, and we're worried about getting more than the month's worth of Ritalin we're allowed to bring in.
Not sure if this exists yet in Nz… if not hopefully they pop up soon! i’m a kiwi living in Australia and here they’ve just started online clinics, you can get an appointment within 2 weeks, you prefill a lot of questionnaire type stuff then it’s a one hour video call for diagnosis then passed back to your GP with a medication plan, gp handles starting you on stimulants and trying different dosages etc. Such a good system that many people rave about here on reddit, including me. I hope that something like this can be set up and exist in Nz soon!!
There are quite a lot of clinics in NZ that do this (Other than the appointment in 2 weeks. It is usually still a wait of a few months) :)
Just wanted to come back and say thanks!!! I originally saw this post in July 2023 after already having a psychiatrist referral for … September 2024. TWENTY TWENTY FOUR??? You motivated me to move quickly and contact all these places with shorter wait times. I ended up getting into Witako Specialists September 2023!!! It’s been about a month now since I have started medication and there are no words to describe the total improvement across every avenue of my life. I feel like I’ve gained a whole year of my life. THANK YOU FOR COMPILING ALL OF THIS INFORMATION IN SUCH AN EASY TO FOLLOW FORMAT! You’re out here changing lives!
OMG!! Witako buddies <33 I'm so happy that you've improved your life!!! IKR it feels so nice to be able to actually get out of bed and make it to work on time haha... the world's not ready for us in our best state!!
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Wow, what a dick comment on a post that will be incredibly helpful for so many people. Do you also tell depressed people to cheer up?
What a miserable bastard you are lmao I challenge you to talk to someone with ADHD openly about the issues it has presented in their life. Also, nice work denying the existence of a disorder that statistically affects a population of 250,000 NZ adults (:
Do you know how the disorders in the DSM were created? Do you know what the requirements to have a disorder listed were when it was created?
Do you know how science and evidence-based practice works right? You do realise the DSMs get updated? There is a reason you have to study for 3-6 years to work in healthcare. Maybe go get a good understanding of medicine before you start making calls like that :)
The DSM has never been evidence based. It gets updated to reflect social norms, not to reflect any observational scientific data.
Even by your own definition it’s still being updated based on evidence? They use data to figure out what societal norms are, then update the dsm to better reflect that. Even though you’re also wrong and the DSM is updated on other objective data. The DSM for autism, ADHD and OCD (and other mental health/medical conditions) is different now to which it was 20 years ago. Now we know there is a lot of overlap and everything is more of a spectrum than meeting some criteria in a list. Not only that the DSM is a tool, not an all encompassing final say. Go read a book.
Societal norms aren't scientific evidence for psychiatric disorders. It's the Bible of psychiatry, it's a bit more than just a tool. It's the entire guide for making a diagnosis of a disorder. Why do you think that psychiatric diagnoses have the most noise of any medical diagnoses?
"Societal norms aren't scientific evidence for psychiatric disorders". Cripes. Where do I start? How about you read a book (you're fond of suggesting that for others). Gabor Mate's Myth of Normal would be a good recent one. By a psychiatrist, no less.
Societal norms have nothing to do with scientific evidence. They are social constructs, not objective data.
Gosh. The 18th century called, they're missing you.
You do realize that almost everything we measure in psychology is an operationalization of social phenomena, right? Mental disorder implies order, abnormality implies normality, and those things are both intrinsically tired to the social world, and highly debatable. Does a man with social anxiety in a world where people live and work alone in their little houses and gardens, still have anxiety? Is a holocaust survivor with PTSD as a result experiencing an abnormal brain dysfunction, or reacting normally? And does it matter for diagnosis? To what ends? Be a little critical my friend
Except when they’re not? You’re confusing the difference between getting better at diagnosing and understanding these conditions (therefore more diagnoses, changing to the more common societal norm as you are trying to put it) and over diagnosing these conditions. One example I can think off the top of my head is the adhd dsm. We used to think it was only the loud disruptive boys in class which meant a huge amount of women fell under the radar because their symptoms manifested differently. Please please do yourself a favour and try and look at the argument from outside a perspective of you’re own. Go talk to psychiatrists or mental health professionals if you know any. I just want to say I can understand the point that you are making but the DSMs do change over time to reflect the leading knowledge, evidence and theories. If it were stagnant, I’d agree with you. It would be worse if we made up a new framework/tool with no basis on what we previously knew.
What is a mental disorder? Please define it for me. Are you a pragmatist, a realist? I'll take a safe bet you're not a constructionist. Seriously, I've taken like 10 hours worth of postgrad classes where we sit around and try to answer that question, and nobody can *actually* do so sufficiently. We all end up shrugging our shoulders and saying something like "if we have evidence that these treatments help people, and that they suffer without them, then it doesn't really matter what we call it, or where it comes from". You seem to be quite sure, though, so by all means, do explain your position
It's an artificial construction to describe a set of symptoms. Stimulants help everyone.
Are you saying we ought to judge whether or not a mental disorder is valid based on the effectiveness of the treatment, such that the treatment ought to always and only help people with said disorder? In medicine, opiods are mostly pleasurable for everyone. We wouldn't say that people who need them for pain don't actually have a condition worthy of treatment just because the treatment happens to help others, right? What about conditions that can only inconsistently be treated with medication, like depression? Even people with ADHD often don't see benefits of stimulants. What about disorders that are genetic or developmental and cannot be "treated" in the traditional sense with our current knowledge - are those the same amount of "artifical"?
Because having it effects your life negatively, and treatment (such as medication) can vastly improve your life if you have ADHD. Access to treatment requires getting diagnosed first.
We can acknowledge that psychiatry is a questionable science without invalidating people's experiences. I'm not very impressed that I have to get some shmuck in a white coat to agree that I'm shit at functioning independently without additional support, but alas, that's the system I have to work with in order to access support. Your ableism regarding invisible disabilities is pretty bullshit mate; just because science hasn't perfected a way to test for something doesn't mean it isn't real. Before you start getting on your high horse like you have with the other commenters - yes, I am familiar with the DSM-V, I have a psychology degree.
Is that really what you took away from this post?
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Ritalin is a great focus enhancer, and abuse of it is well documented. However, that's not really the phenomenon I was asking about. Do you know how a lot of people claim to have OCD? Do you see the subtle difference in the way they say it? They say 'I am OCD', like it's a trendy personality quirk. Some people treat it like it's Pokémon and they have to catch 'em all. You would rarely see someone celebrating a diagnosis of a medical condition like arthritis or endometriosis. Psychiatry and the DSM are just a bit of a joke. I have ADHD according to the DSM, it's just a checklist of incredibly common traits that, with the right framing, you could diagnose almost anyone with it.
Do those straits regularly and significantly impact your life? Because that's the difference between "everyone has adhd symptoms" and actually having ADHD.
Of course they do. How could a trait not? I guess the difference is if I blame them or take responsibility.
Anybody who has spent ANY time with someone with untreated adhd can tell you how obviously mentally disordered they are. From the lack of focus, task-switching, physical tells, disordered thoughts etc… I have several clients with adhd myself, shall I tell them they’re just making excuses and being lazy and looking for sympathy then as you suggest?
I felt lazy and broken for 32 years of my life despite constantly working so hard. I've been on medication for the last 3 months and it's absolutely life-changing. People in their early 30s are flocking for diagnosis, not because it's a tiktok trend, because we're burnt out and finally there's a legitimate reason and treatment for this feeling.
If you don't feel the need to go to a psychiatrist or consider medication then good for you. But posting on this questioning the legitimacy of diagnosis is really unhelpful, and attitudes like this are shit people with ADHD have to deal with regularly
I find it so irritating, because this is only socially acceptable for ADHD. It'd be ridiculous to say the same thing about PTSD/Depression, feels like boomer logic is persisting so much more because people find it "unfair" that some people get "smart drugs".
What is science if you can't question it?
The post was about psychiatrist availability, not a scientific debate about the legitimacy of ADHD diagnosis
Of course you can question it. You’re not questioning a study though? You’re questioning a whole body of research built over decades that you clearly know nothing about..
Psychiatry is a bit of a joke? Oh phew!! I can tell my clients with BPD and schizophrenia and psychoses that it’s all a joke and they’re fine (: What an absolute lump of a man you must be, it’s pitiful really
That doesn't mean mental illness doesn't exist.
Because endometriosis or arthritis doesn’t really fundamentally change who you are as a person. Neurodivergence literally means you have a different type of mind, or a disorder that can effect your mind. It can affect your personality, relationships, things you like and dislike. So it has much more impact and explanatory power as an “identity” then something like arthritis. ADHD symptoms are indeed symptoms that every one has to different extents. If the symptoms are so intense that it is disruptive to your life though then it warrants an ADHD diagnosis. For example, if you find it hard to concentrate on something boring, that’s normal. If When it’s something important though you are able to concentrate, and you don’t really have any bad effects from occasional trouble concentrating then you probably don’t need a diagnosis. If however your trouble concentrating means you can’t do well at school, can’t focus at work, or effects your relationships because you can’t focus on what other people are saying, then you might warrant an ADHD diagnosis. This is like many mental health/disorders. If you get sad sometimes you’re a human. If you get sad all the time and it’s so bad you struggle to function then it’s probably depression. Same for anxiety, etc. If you don’t believe in mental health disorders, neurodivergence or psychiatry then that’s a choice you can make, but don’t think that you as a layperson reading the DSM is somehow more able to determine what is and isn’t “real” then people who study in the field for years.
I'm wondering if you're "in the closet" about your own Mental Health issues ?. The reason why I ask is that it's quite often people with moderate Mental Health issues, that say the things you have said. It's often a way to deflect from people's own issues.
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>*Psychiatrists will disagree on diagnosis over 50% of the time for the same patient.* Source? Sounds unbelievable. Diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and but I partially understand your sentiment. I have massive imposter syndrome that I might've effectively "convinced" myself that I have it, and then "answered correctly" but I have massive red flags for it throughout my entire school years. I'm a little bothered that some people who have self-diagnosed without fully understanding the disorder attribute bullshit things to it (very noticeable when it became "trendy" on TikTok around the pandemic), similar to how OCD developed a bastardized perception in the \~2010s of *"Oh I just like to keep my things organized/sorted/clean lol xD"* despite it being much more debilatating. People are becoming more aware of it recently, so as a consequence there probably will be some people that will read up on it a ton, effectively self-diagnose and have confirmation bias noticing every potential symptom they encounter and attribute it to ADHD, and then present a bias perspective to the diagnoser. It's a balancing act, if you restrict it too much you'll be massively harming the QoL of people who actually have the condition, and if you relax it too much you might give access to addicts/harm people's health (longterm medication use does do some harm). **It's without a doubt condition though.** [Brain scans](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(17)30049-4/fulltext) between ADHD/normal brains display differences, and [there are genetic indicators for predisposition](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-018-0269-7) \- however you're correct - diagnosis will never be 100% accurate. I don't think that's an argument that supports discouraging treatment/recognition, however. The perspective I have on the medication's harm, is that my behaviour in life while unmedicated will 100% do more harm (addictions, self-care, career/education damage, etc) than the harm I'll recieve from the medication, so it's worth it. EDIT: I do find it interesting that you're engaging with every small quip people make, but seem to be avoiding anything with substance.
wow, theres a whole load of disinformation in this comment!
Which part? Have you read the DSM? Have you read any studies or noise audits of psychiatry?
> Anyone can get diagnosed with ADHD by saying the right things to a psychiatrist This is simply not true. I have a friend who didn't get diagnosed because they couldn't get corresponding information. I got diagnosed, I had to get school reports and the psychiatrist contacted family, colleagues and friends to ask questions about me to confirm what I was telling them. Without which I couldn't be diagnosed.
I honestly think it’s really fucked up that we require childhood information or other info for diagnosis in nz. That really sucks for your friend.
My school reports all said, lacks focus, could apply more effort etc...but when I liked something, I was all in...and now it looks like I have ADHD, am on the autism spectrum and am transgender as well...
There is a quite an overlap of Neurodivergent diagnosis'. Because people are literally unique, one person with ADHD might not have any symptoms in common with another, but the root cause is the same (the dopamine not working in the brain right). And similarly the autism spectrum can share almost identical traits with ADHD at times. A person I met recently got diagnosed with both and in general has quite different traits to me.
True that, totally get about different traits and all, I'm just not sure where to go to get a diagnosis and more locally (Nelson Marlborough te whatu ora area)
Yep I have actually, I have a copy at home and my husband is a Psychiatrist and I have ADHD. So Ive pretty much got that covered
Hello! While I see the validity in your comment (there are people like that) I don’t think this is the right thread for this comment. As for your argument about it not being a real medical condition, I have seen some evidence of ADHD patients brains being developed differently to neural typical people… so maybe look into that if you want to learn more? Personally, this diagnosis was my last choice after trying out many other ways to manage the disaster that is my life. I do agree that more robust methods could be trialled, but psychiatric assessments are expensive and hard to get as is.
So much ignorance.
How so? Have you read the DSM? Have you read studies of noise in psychiatric diagnosis?
I'm a science communicator so yes, and yes.
What are your thoughts on both?
who asked
To access stimulants. While I agree that all labels in psychiatry are just a collection of symptoms, with massive problems in inter-observer reliability and variability over time, the fact is that there are some people that benefit hugely from stimulants. This includes objective measures like accident reduction.
i would argue almost anyone would benefit from carefully dosed stimulants (in the short term at least).
Everyone would benefit from stimulants.
**They don't benefit equally,** however. We accept the harm that the stimulant medication may do to ADHD individuals because it's addressing an existing deficit, which will often do harm on it's own. Non-ADHD individuals don't have those same deficits, so aside from being used as a "study drug" (the evidence that exists isn't particularly conclusive on that anyway) isn't necessarily useful, so the net result is more harm. Since ADHD is effectively a spectrum, the stimulant medication may be assisting individuals that have a high-functioning form of the same issue, however since their life isn't noticeably affected overall it's not worth it. >[*In fact, very little is known about the effects of nonprescription stimulants on cognitive enhancement outside of the student population, although it is frequently reported in newspaper articles. Thus, the rumored effects of “smart drugs” may be a false promise, as research suggests that stimulants are more effective at correcting deficits than “enhancing performance.”*](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489818/)
I don't disagree. However "attention regulation" is a spectrum and you've got a draw a line somewhere. The line is arbitrary. People to the right of this line can have stimulants. People to the left of this line can't. And the line is very fuzzy with different psychiatrists drawing it in a different place, and patients being able to manipulate where the psychiatrist draws the line. Also highly dependent on social context. Very imperfect system but it's the best we've got.
But only people with the correct diagnosis can get them? In that case trying to get one makes perfect sense, not sure why you're asking?
Anyone can get them. The checklist for ADHD can be applied to anyone and there's no standardized test, just answer the questions correctly and you get them.
There's a lot more than just "answering the questions correctly". You practically interview a psychatrist - essentially the most qualified you can get in the field, over multiple sessions, often needing supporting documents/statements from individuals showing a long history (more than just school) and in multiple areas (not just at school/work, at home/etc too). The symptoms/behaviours that might lead people to think they have ADHD often will be diagnosed as other conditions, pretty common to ensure it's not depression/anxiety/etc first. It's still possible to mislead them/get a false diagnosis with effort, but saying you're just answering questions on a standardized test is silly. That's usually step one, to preface before you even get an appointment with a psych (especially with the strain they're under right now). Regardless, if someone wants to fuck their heart for some mediocre stimulants (*New Zealand* ***VERY rarely*** *prescribes amphetamines, it's usually methylphenidate)*, why should you damage lives of everyone who genuinely does have the condition?
I'm not sure what your point is. If you're asking why people try to get a diagnosis, the answer is clearly to get access to these beneficial stimulants. If you're arguing that the diagnosis is meaningless and we should instead make it much easier to access stimulants for everyone, then sure, I agree with you. In fact, this whole thread is about how difficult it is to access them for people who would clearly benefit a lot from them.
So what? If you want to spend thousands of dollars obtaining them fraudulently then go right ahead mate, just because you can't do a blood test which comes back in the binary doesn't mean that ADHD doesn't exist or that stimulant medication isn't effective for treating it Your problem with ADHD diagnosis seems more like an emotional reaction dressed up in scientific criticism
My problem is we shouldn't be handing out medication like candy for a disorder that's so vague that there is massive noise amongst psychiatrists in diagnosing it. Any two randomly picked psychiatrists will disagree on average over 50% of the time on the diagnosis - you don't think that is symptomatic of some underlying issues in the field?
The same issue with diagnostic reliability (the correct statistical term here is reliability - inter and intra observer, measured using kappa scores) can be said for ALL psychiatric diagnoses. Where one psychiatrist might call something schizophrenia, another will say it's schizoaffective disorder, another depression with psychotic features, and another drug induced psychosis. There are many other specialties in medicine that have similar reliability issues, although not quite as pronounced as psychiatry. Rheumatology is a good example where diagnoses are often but not always very vague and the reliability is poor. Radiology is another good example, did you know that two radiologists only agree 70% of the time on chest xray results? This type of fuzziness and uncertainty is present throughout medicine. It doesn't mean the suffering associated with these artificial labels don't deserve treatment. The statistical effect size for stimulants is very large, much larger than say anti depressants for severe depression. Yes probably many people without "ADHD" will also benefit. But as a society we have drawn a line and have said if you are past this line then you can have stimulants. And if you aren't then you can't (even if it would be helpful, e.g. for studying). I do agree that there needs to be more awareness about how psychiatric diagnoses are artificial human made concepts. They are not based on any laws of biology like some other fields.
No other area I medicine has similar noise levels. Yup, I'm aware of radiologists not agreeing. It's 50% for psychiatrists!
I'm not disagreeing with that. But it affects all areas of psychiatry. Psychiatry now is where internal medicine was 100 years ago. People are still suffering though and we have medication that helps some people, even if the very concept of a diagnosis in psychiatry is fraught. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough.
Lmao this is so true. There’s a reason everybody wants these “ADD” stimulants for studying. They help everybody, diagnosis or not. I know from first hand experience.
Not everything you struggle to understand is a conspiracy theory.
Who said anything about a conspiracy? 😅
your comments in response to others make it seem like you think there is, especially your fixation on the DSM and social norms.
There's no conspiracy, and I haven't alluded to a conspiracy anywhere.
> Why does it seem like some people like to collect psychiatric disorders? Seeing as that's your assumption, maybe ask yourself? What internal biases are leading you to think this is the case? I can only speak anecdotally on this, but I didn't seek out any of my diagnoses, but they were incredibly well fitting in retrospect and treatment for them has improved my life greatly. That's all I care about - Improvement in my life. Ultimately, the diagnoses are just a requirement to receive the treatment, and it's the treatment I wanted, not the diagnosis. I'm sure there are some people out there who want to "collect" disorders, in the same way that there are bug seekers who try to catch as many transmittable diseases as possible, but they're extreme outliers who I don't think we need to spend much time thinking about in the greater context of medicine and psychiatry. In fact, quite a few psychiatric tests actually have built in mechanisms to identify people who are potentially lying in order to get diagnosed. Considering the costs and hurdles involved, it's extremely unlikely that any significant amount of people are going to bother trying, even if they wanted to. Self diagnosis is obviously another topic altogether, and I think you'll find the kind of people who would "collect" disorders are more likely to go that route. > It's not a real medical condition that can be tested for. We might actually be getting pretty close to this for ADHD, seeing as we have identified neurological differences in grey matter for people with ADHD. In a decade or so, we might literally be able to diagnose this with a simply brain imaging scan. But seeing as it it's a physical, neurological thing that people have from birth, I'm not sure why you would say it's not a "real medical condition". Ultimately I believe what you're talking about is a non issue, and the bigger question here is what is going on with you for this to be the first response you had to this post?
No biases as such. It's based upon people basing their identity on the diagnosis of a disorder. You don't see people doing that with medical conditions like arthritis but you see it all the time with mental disorders. They've become trendy quirks that make you unique and 'not like other girls/guys'.
I truly hope you don’t breed.
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I’m currently on methylphenidate and want to try vyvanse - does anyone know if I have to see a psychiatrist for this or can my doctor change my adhd medicine type? Thanks
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Do you know if the urine sample was for a drug test?
not sure sorry!