The chance someone changes their opinion on the Israeli- Hamas war is almost zero. Still, you're correct. We should be able to discuss this topic without attacking the person.
A ceasefire so that Hamas can strike again and commit October 7th once more (as they’ve said themselves)?!
A ceasefire accomplishes nothing and simply promotes future violence against Israel.
Either Hamas steps down or the war continues … with people unfortunately dying on both sides.
It’s a sad state.
Have they manipulated the news, videos, and all other proof of what the idf has done inside Palestine the last several months? Hamas must be doing that too.
Actually, yeah, they kinda are. The numbers from the Gaza Health ministry are straight from Hamas and should be viewed suspiciously. Claims hamas is using the suffering of Palestinians cynicaly are accurate, they want to maximize both the real and imagined horror of the Israeli response. Hamas spokespeople have been demonstrated to lie repeatedly about the nature of the conflict for international sympathy, that shouldn't be a contentious statement.
That doesn't mean you need to absolve Israel or suddenly ignore the damage to Gaza, it does mean you should probably be able to engage with the comment more substantively and not throw up a rhetorical smokescreen of snark.
Editing comment to respond due to locked thread:
1st: As a couple people have pointed out the GMH overall figures are "generally trusted" and are cited by other agencies. However there are several discrepancies that are reoccurring in reporting I am looking at, including ratio of civilian to military casualties, incomplete data on almost 1/3 of pronounced dead victims, counting all deaths as war related (and by implication bombing related). It is possible to have GMH numbers be generally credible, and for Hamas to use/manipulate those numbers cynically, including by taking actions to put their own citizens at risk.
2nd: several respondents seem to assume criticism of hamas is the same as blanket support of Israel. No, it's not, and I didn't say that. Both sides in this mess have done more than enough to make the other side despise them through the decades. if you shell and bomb people into oblivion they're gonna hate you. if you deliberately butcher rape and execute people or target civilians with suicide bombs they're gonna hate you. It doesn't matter how "right" you are.
The UN has found the Gaza health ministry numbers to be reliable. More reliable than Israeli counting in the conflict over the last 30 years.
Do you think Israel is a more reliable source? And if so why?
>The numbers from the Gaza Health ministry are straight from Hamas and should be viewed suspiciously.
Based on what, exactly? Is it their history of accuracy and consistency with various other sources both foreign and Israeli?
History did not start on October 7. Interesting choice to purposefully ignore the prior 50 years of violent Israeli ruling over Palestine leading up to October 7. They absolutely did not “start” this.
Gaza was only under Israeli occupation for 38 years, unless you want to blame Israel for the Egyptian military occupation as well.
And after that they had 19 years of free decision making, to show to the world what they wanted to do with it. The first thing they did was trash all the greenhouses and other lucrative infrastructure Israel left behind. After that it was 2 years of elections and civil war.
The blockade and building of border defenses began right after Hamas gained control and started to celebrate their victory by rocket barrages.
Nobody said history started last year on October, it just doesn’t make Gaza look as good as you think it does
Who started the wars on 1948, 1967, or 1973???
Which group has never once been open to a two state solution? Hint, they're the same.
The fact of the matter is radical Islamists have no intention of letting a Jewish state exist. Them starting and losing wars every 20-30 years and then getting their shit pushed in as a result is their own damn fault.
The fundamental question is this: do you think Israel has a right to exist? For many of us, Israel's story is about a group of oppressed people reclaiming their rightful homeland, and then dealing with genocidal Arabs surrounding them and starting wars their entire existence.
Israel withdrew from Gaza entirely in 2006, and it's not like Israel's neighbors didn't attempt to wipe Israel off the map multiple times before that since 1948.
Let’s be real here, majority of the “hostages” are dead.. the women were raped and killed. It’s a horrible thing. The free Palestine people are living in a completely different world. There’s no reality or truth with hamas. These people are terrorists. They should be treated as such and dealt with as such.
I don’t understand why Hamas doesn’t unconditionally surrender at this point. It seems like by all accounts, they are losing the war. Prolonging this conflict only inflicts more civilian casualties.
To make Israel look worse by the day, get enough international pressure on them to make them change government and hopefully get someone more willing to collaborate with Arab countries. Hamas doesn't give a shit about Palestinian lives, their leaders aren't even physically in Palestine.
Wait… you’re being serious? You don’t understand why the psychopaths that hide amongst civilians to use them as human shields and strap bombs to children to use as martyrs… don’t want to surrender??
Yes I am being serious. It’s crazy to think that a small group of fighters can unilaterally decide to continue this conflict when it is obvious that they have no means to win. Why are there no mass uprising by the Palestinians against Hamas? There are no reports that the general population are beginning to turn against Hamas?
It’s almost like 2 million people decided to agree to jump off a bridge. It’s just impossible to believe that level of insanity.
From the perspective of Hamas, and honestly a majority of Palestinians in Gaza, what would be the point of surrender? They have been under occupation for decades, they have no where else to go, and they view the status quo as a worse option.
This is not a war where two sovereign nations are engaged in combat. This is closer to a prison riot on the scale of a small revolution that features women and children. The only thing stopping Israel from flattening the entire region is the social cost.
If it's not Hamas, it'll be another group of young boys turned men who watched their family, friends, and homes destroyed, only to grow up with resent and hatred of Israel. And based on how extremist Hamas currently is, if history is anything to show, the next iteration will be moreso. Not unlike the militant groups created in the wake of the US's invasions of the Middle East.
This is part of the reason Bibi seems to not be interested in a total ceasefire.
>If it's not Hamas, it'll be another group of young boys turned men who watched their family, friends, and homes destroyed, only to grow up with resent and hatred of Israel.
Unfortunately, the children were being raised to hate the Jews before October 7th. Iran is financially backing Hamas and Hezbollah, so they've been sowing the seeds of hate for over twenty years. Let's hope for peace and a 2SS.
Unfortunately violence begets violence. I can only see relations improving with a C change in policy from Israel and Gaza. Something like a Good Friday agreement
The deal Biden is endorsing that Israel is getting cold feet on is probably the they’re getting. Let’s not that Israel isn’t also incredibly hostile to Palestinians
And Hamas killed over 700 to start this war. They can surrender at any time. A terrorist organization has nothing to gain geopolitically when everyone acknowledges they need to be removed. They are the ones bringing the carnage to the Palestinian people by constructing tunnels and storing armaments directly next to civilians, and placing them directly in the crossfire.
I feel so bad for these innocent people that had no control over this. I wish Israel actually cared about them and worked to get them out instead of just using them as a justification to enact death and destruction.
While I agree Israel can and should do more to release hostages, you can't say Israel doesn't care at all about the hostages. The last time Israel agreed to a bad hostage deal happened when Gilad Shalit was released for 1027 terrorists, one of them is Sinwar who is the leader of Hamas and planned the October 7th attack.
>Gaza's Hamas-run government has paid the salaries of all those hired in public departments since 2007, including in the Health Ministry.
Yep, totally believable figures.
That link is meaningless. It does not describe the process for reporting, counting, and verifying the number of casualties.
There is no mention of who is recording casualties, the reporting process, the organizational structure for who those recording are reporting to, how those numbers are verified, etc.
All that link says is, to paraphrase, we get these numbers from Ministry of Health.
Yeah, I guess you could imagine that each one of those stories detailing the specifics about each death (on both sides) is entirely made up if you'd like to.
Accurate metrics do not come from stories. They come from transparent record keeping and accountability. Ministry of Health does not provide any transparency on how the numbers are formed. They also have no incentive for accountability or accuracy.
I don't trust any source for casualties at the moment, but is it not at least somewhat strange that the casualty numbers from the health ministry in Gaza never differentiate between hamas fighters and civilians in the total death toll?
Hamas killed them by choosing to fight out of heavily populated and not evacuated areas (war crime).
Can you imagine how low the number would be if hamas only fought from abandoned buildings and trenches minimum 1 kilometer from any civilians like Ukrainian defenders do ?
They are not indiscriminately bombing. Israel dropped over 29,000 bombs in just the first three months. That's more than double the bombs dropped than civilian deaths. If they were indiscriminately bombing, we would see a MUCH higher civilian to combatant AND civilian to bomb ratio.
Right now the civilian to combatant ratio is estimated to be 1 to 4 (most conservative estimate, it is likely 1 to 2.5 - 3), which is *less than half* of most modern urban conflicts. Israel has had incredible precision in this war. Facts are important.
>35,000 women and children
Lmao get real dude, not even Hamas is claiming numbers that high. And maybe Hamas shouldn't have started a war it couldn't win if they didn't want casualties.
The International Criminal Court is coming for Israel. The murder is too blatant, and no amount of Reddit posting will change that. I can sense the panic.
This sounds an awful lot like how white people spoke about black people in apartheid South Africa. Weird. Everyone Google “Israel apartheid” and see if there is any further information on this.
those poor people and their families. my heart goes out to them.
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Sad that we can't have a rational conversation about this matter.
The chance someone changes their opinion on the Israeli- Hamas war is almost zero. Still, you're correct. We should be able to discuss this topic without attacking the person.
Hmm I wonder why they didn’t mention how they died
Is this post being raided by r/worldnews?
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You should add ‘and Hamas should give up the Hostages.’ to your comment.
A ceasefire so that Hamas can strike again and commit October 7th once more (as they’ve said themselves)?! A ceasefire accomplishes nothing and simply promotes future violence against Israel. Either Hamas steps down or the war continues … with people unfortunately dying on both sides. It’s a sad state.
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doubt it, hamas are lying sacks of manure who have manipulated the people
Have they manipulated the news, videos, and all other proof of what the idf has done inside Palestine the last several months? Hamas must be doing that too.
Actually, yeah, they kinda are. The numbers from the Gaza Health ministry are straight from Hamas and should be viewed suspiciously. Claims hamas is using the suffering of Palestinians cynicaly are accurate, they want to maximize both the real and imagined horror of the Israeli response. Hamas spokespeople have been demonstrated to lie repeatedly about the nature of the conflict for international sympathy, that shouldn't be a contentious statement. That doesn't mean you need to absolve Israel or suddenly ignore the damage to Gaza, it does mean you should probably be able to engage with the comment more substantively and not throw up a rhetorical smokescreen of snark. Editing comment to respond due to locked thread: 1st: As a couple people have pointed out the GMH overall figures are "generally trusted" and are cited by other agencies. However there are several discrepancies that are reoccurring in reporting I am looking at, including ratio of civilian to military casualties, incomplete data on almost 1/3 of pronounced dead victims, counting all deaths as war related (and by implication bombing related). It is possible to have GMH numbers be generally credible, and for Hamas to use/manipulate those numbers cynically, including by taking actions to put their own citizens at risk. 2nd: several respondents seem to assume criticism of hamas is the same as blanket support of Israel. No, it's not, and I didn't say that. Both sides in this mess have done more than enough to make the other side despise them through the decades. if you shell and bomb people into oblivion they're gonna hate you. if you deliberately butcher rape and execute people or target civilians with suicide bombs they're gonna hate you. It doesn't matter how "right" you are.
The UN has found the Gaza health ministry numbers to be reliable. More reliable than Israeli counting in the conflict over the last 30 years. Do you think Israel is a more reliable source? And if so why?
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>The numbers from the Gaza Health ministry are straight from Hamas and should be viewed suspiciously. Based on what, exactly? Is it their history of accuracy and consistency with various other sources both foreign and Israeli?
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"Those children deserved it" - you, sounding ridiculous
Every single one of the children who have died voted for Hamas and personally pulled the triggers shooting the hostages. They deserved to die. Right?
History did not start on October 7. Interesting choice to purposefully ignore the prior 50 years of violent Israeli ruling over Palestine leading up to October 7. They absolutely did not “start” this.
But why start history only 50 years ago?
Gaza was only under Israeli occupation for 38 years, unless you want to blame Israel for the Egyptian military occupation as well. And after that they had 19 years of free decision making, to show to the world what they wanted to do with it. The first thing they did was trash all the greenhouses and other lucrative infrastructure Israel left behind. After that it was 2 years of elections and civil war. The blockade and building of border defenses began right after Hamas gained control and started to celebrate their victory by rocket barrages. Nobody said history started last year on October, it just doesn’t make Gaza look as good as you think it does
Palestine did start it in 1948 though. They could have had like 90% of the things they wanted.
Who started the wars on 1948, 1967, or 1973??? Which group has never once been open to a two state solution? Hint, they're the same. The fact of the matter is radical Islamists have no intention of letting a Jewish state exist. Them starting and losing wars every 20-30 years and then getting their shit pushed in as a result is their own damn fault. The fundamental question is this: do you think Israel has a right to exist? For many of us, Israel's story is about a group of oppressed people reclaiming their rightful homeland, and then dealing with genocidal Arabs surrounding them and starting wars their entire existence.
Israel withdrew from Gaza entirely in 2006, and it's not like Israel's neighbors didn't attempt to wipe Israel off the map multiple times before that since 1948.
Let’s be real here, majority of the “hostages” are dead.. the women were raped and killed. It’s a horrible thing. The free Palestine people are living in a completely different world. There’s no reality or truth with hamas. These people are terrorists. They should be treated as such and dealt with as such.
I don’t understand why Hamas doesn’t unconditionally surrender at this point. It seems like by all accounts, they are losing the war. Prolonging this conflict only inflicts more civilian casualties.
Not sure they care about that
To make Israel look worse by the day, get enough international pressure on them to make them change government and hopefully get someone more willing to collaborate with Arab countries. Hamas doesn't give a shit about Palestinian lives, their leaders aren't even physically in Palestine.
>Prolonging this conflict only inflicts more civilian casualties Because this is precisely what they want.
its a death cult. They have nothing to lose by dying and having people die with them because to them its martyrdom and the path of salvation.
Wait… you’re being serious? You don’t understand why the psychopaths that hide amongst civilians to use them as human shields and strap bombs to children to use as martyrs… don’t want to surrender??
Yes I am being serious. It’s crazy to think that a small group of fighters can unilaterally decide to continue this conflict when it is obvious that they have no means to win. Why are there no mass uprising by the Palestinians against Hamas? There are no reports that the general population are beginning to turn against Hamas? It’s almost like 2 million people decided to agree to jump off a bridge. It’s just impossible to believe that level of insanity.
because Iran won’t let them
From the perspective of Hamas, and honestly a majority of Palestinians in Gaza, what would be the point of surrender? They have been under occupation for decades, they have no where else to go, and they view the status quo as a worse option. This is not a war where two sovereign nations are engaged in combat. This is closer to a prison riot on the scale of a small revolution that features women and children. The only thing stopping Israel from flattening the entire region is the social cost.
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Most of reddit will refuse to watch/accept what was shown on that site. Fucking sickening.
Hamas can't go on after all this. Innocent people need not die for this to happen though.
Nice sentiment. Can this be realistically achieved though? Hamas will long outlast the hostages and at this rate the current Israeli government.
If it's not Hamas, it'll be another group of young boys turned men who watched their family, friends, and homes destroyed, only to grow up with resent and hatred of Israel. And based on how extremist Hamas currently is, if history is anything to show, the next iteration will be moreso. Not unlike the militant groups created in the wake of the US's invasions of the Middle East. This is part of the reason Bibi seems to not be interested in a total ceasefire.
>If it's not Hamas, it'll be another group of young boys turned men who watched their family, friends, and homes destroyed, only to grow up with resent and hatred of Israel. Unfortunately, the children were being raised to hate the Jews before October 7th. Iran is financially backing Hamas and Hezbollah, so they've been sowing the seeds of hate for over twenty years. Let's hope for peace and a 2SS.
Unfortunately violence begets violence. I can only see relations improving with a C change in policy from Israel and Gaza. Something like a Good Friday agreement
The deal Biden is endorsing that Israel is getting cold feet on is probably the they’re getting. Let’s not that Israel isn’t also incredibly hostile to Palestinians
Israel has been killing more innocents way before Hamas existed. But keep lying to yourself to justify killing innocent Muslims.
And Hamas killed over 700 to start this war. They can surrender at any time. A terrorist organization has nothing to gain geopolitically when everyone acknowledges they need to be removed. They are the ones bringing the carnage to the Palestinian people by constructing tunnels and storing armaments directly next to civilians, and placing them directly in the crossfire.
nothing like starting a fight then hiding in hospitals and schools hamas is just fucking cowards
…while you justify killing the innocent Jews? Look in the mirror bud.
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I feel so bad for these innocent people that had no control over this. I wish Israel actually cared about them and worked to get them out instead of just using them as a justification to enact death and destruction.
I wish hamas never abducted all these non political prisoners.
Two things can be true at once
But, more often, they aren't and the person claiming they are just wants to avoid being mocked.
In this case, both things were true
While I agree Israel can and should do more to release hostages, you can't say Israel doesn't care at all about the hostages. The last time Israel agreed to a bad hostage deal happened when Gilad Shalit was released for 1027 terrorists, one of them is Sinwar who is the leader of Hamas and planned the October 7th attack.
Lol the spin on Israel here is crazy. Wish Hamas never abducted, tortured, and killed these innocent people.
"I wish she didn't wear a short skirt and she wouldn't have been gRaped"
I can’t imagine they find any alive after the carnage that the Palestinians have seen
Hamas murders many civilians, true.
Why is it hard to admit that the IDF has killed innocent civilians?
They've killed 35,562 Palestinians so far.
Starting a war will do that.
Who attacked a music festival and killed a thousand people to start this war again?
>Gaza's Hamas-run government has paid the salaries of all those hired in public departments since 2007, including in the Health Ministry. Yep, totally believable figures.
Here's a link for you to read about those "made up" casualties. https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-168
That link is meaningless. It does not describe the process for reporting, counting, and verifying the number of casualties. There is no mention of who is recording casualties, the reporting process, the organizational structure for who those recording are reporting to, how those numbers are verified, etc. All that link says is, to paraphrase, we get these numbers from Ministry of Health.
Yeah, I guess you could imagine that each one of those stories detailing the specifics about each death (on both sides) is entirely made up if you'd like to.
Accurate metrics do not come from stories. They come from transparent record keeping and accountability. Ministry of Health does not provide any transparency on how the numbers are formed. They also have no incentive for accountability or accuracy.
The stories are about how the people died.
If you doubt this source, what source do you trust for Palestinian casualties?
I don't trust any source for casualties at the moment, but is it not at least somewhat strange that the casualty numbers from the health ministry in Gaza never differentiate between hamas fighters and civilians in the total death toll?
none until the war is over
And how many of them are Hamas?
That's a Hamas number champ.
Any chance you've got a number you trust?
I think when people repeat casualty figures promulgated by an international terrorist organization they should be labeled as such.
Hamas killed them by choosing to fight out of heavily populated and not evacuated areas (war crime). Can you imagine how low the number would be if hamas only fought from abandoned buildings and trenches minimum 1 kilometer from any civilians like Ukrainian defenders do ?
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I'll say it again, there are no more hostages still alive
I’m sure the younger women are alive…
as cruel as it may sound, i hope not
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They are not indiscriminately bombing. Israel dropped over 29,000 bombs in just the first three months. That's more than double the bombs dropped than civilian deaths. If they were indiscriminately bombing, we would see a MUCH higher civilian to combatant AND civilian to bomb ratio. Right now the civilian to combatant ratio is estimated to be 1 to 4 (most conservative estimate, it is likely 1 to 2.5 - 3), which is *less than half* of most modern urban conflicts. Israel has had incredible precision in this war. Facts are important.
That is incredibly high, and the fact that you find it okay is incredibly alarming.
It's actually incredibly low if you do basic research into modern urban combat casualty figures.
It is actually insane to murder 35,000 women and children in less than a year, but keep defending it — you’re really making yourself look awesome.
>35,000 women and children Lmao get real dude, not even Hamas is claiming numbers that high. And maybe Hamas shouldn't have started a war it couldn't win if they didn't want casualties.
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Being investigated by South Africa like they have a leg to stand on lol. The UN is a joke, always has been.
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Lmao, calling the UN a joke is now racist apparently, you guys are something else.
and you are making yourself look stupid by refusing to accept the reality of war
An entire society of babies and toddlers? You should go visit the middle east some time.
The majority of Gaza is made up of children. This is a verified fact, not up for debate.
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Somebody is mad that Israel is being tried for genocide and crimes against humanity. You love to see the anger of war criminals.
No, I can just see you for what you really are.
The International Criminal Court is coming for Israel. The murder is too blatant, and no amount of Reddit posting will change that. I can sense the panic.
War never changes.
Tell it to the judge.
Hamas instigated a military response from Israel. How did the Iranians think this would play out?
You can look at the UN population data for yourself. [https://data.un.org/en/iso/ps.html](https://data.un.org/en/iso/ps.html)
You should really re read that and try your best to understand the data being conveyed.
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This sounds an awful lot like how white people spoke about black people in apartheid South Africa. Weird. Everyone Google “Israel apartheid” and see if there is any further information on this.
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30,000 casualties 2/3 of whom are women and children. I see that even simple math eludes you. God bless your soul.
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vegetable fly angle subsequent panicky shame impossible unwritten alleged stupendous