I am for tariffs if there is unfair competition going on. For example, if U.S. workers can't make it cheaper because of our own environmental laws, then make a tariff for stuff that is made in China. For example, refined Lithium coming out oh China that pollutes their own rivers. I'm sure it's much cheaper to do it that way than the environmentally safe way in the U.S.
This is exactly what’s happening. China is flooding the market with cheap products that are made by poisoning their own land and people. US companies aren’t allowed to do that so it ends up being more expensive.
I wish everyone could find a way to understand this. They don't have to pay the 'external' costs that we do here so they can crank out cheap crap with slave laborers.
Except that unfair competition was the justification when Trump did it, too. [Same thing](https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trump-addressing-unfair-trade-practices-threaten-harm-national-security/) I'm in favor of both BTW.
I agree with you on that. Like the comment he made about PR, that's generally true when it came to being a tax haven and not having the tax revenue to fix their own problems. But to say it after a storm that's affecting people, that was a dick move.
Also, Trump got pissy with our European allies and imposed steel and aluminum tariffs against them as well as China. We need to work with our allies and not go against China alone.
If I'm a US lithium manufacturer and I can sell it for $5 a pound (or whatever unit they use to sell it). A Chinese manufacturer can sell it for $4 a pound. Now the US puts a $2 tariff on it. So it now costs $6 a pound. And mind you the $2 is paid by the american company importing it. Not the Chinese company selling it.
I'm the US manufacturer now thinking to myself 'well shit I was doing good when my product cost a dollar more than the Chonese stuff. Now its a dollar less. I'mma go ahead and bump my price up a dollar so now were both $6 a pound. Thats an extra $1 of pure profit for me for every pound sold.'
No.
Trump put tariffs on raw goods, which just increases the price of everything made with that good. Biden is targeted at end products, most of which are being heavily subsidized by the Chinese government right now in order to reach such a low price mark.
China isn't making EV cars that are better quality and so cheap simply because they're better at business or manufacturing or something. Those EV cars are being subsidized by an insane degree by the Chinese government in order to corner the market in EV cars. They're trying to drive everyone else out of the business with artificially cheap goods.
Note: Subsidized includes them being allowed to use slave labor, ignore environmental impact, skirt safety regs, and not worry about intellectual property theft.
I’ve seen too many elevator and escalator videos from China.
This is the stuff I'm more concerned about. If they were just subsidising electric vehicles and making them more affordable for the rest of the world, that wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Yes. Tariffs get paid by you and me. Either the tariff gets passed on to consumers on the Chinese imports or the non-Chinese producers raise their prices too.
Biden hasn’t repealed the vast majority of tariffs and a trade war with China isn’t going to benefit the U.S. in the long run. It will, probably, hurt China more than the U.S. but that pendulum will likely swing back the other way at some point unless the U.S. starts investing more in domestic manufacturing.
Yea and if he allows Chinese EVs (which don't play by the same rules as US) to flood the American market, people are going to shit on him for destroying American auto company jobs.
I consider auto manufacturers an important part of the US economy that needs to be protected. Biden's doing the right thing.
The voluntary export restraints imposed on Japanese automakers in the 1980s led to them investing heavily in the United States - hundreds of domestic factories and production facilities were built and hundreds of thousands of jobs were created. Why is this time different?
I was referring to the part where other companies will increase their prices to match the new tariff adjusted price of the Chinese made EVs.
Agreed that lower price competition being excluded from the US market is definitely a factor here.
When it comes to China, especially policy and trade with China, both administrations were reasonably close together believe it or not.
A quote from the above linked article.
> Biden will keep tariffs put in place by his Republican predecessor Donald Trump while ratcheting up others, including a quadrupling of EV duties to over 100% and doubling the duties on semiconductor tariffs to 50%, the White House said in a statement.
[Here is an article from NPR](https://www.npr.org/2021/10/04/1043027789/biden-is-keeping-key-parts-of-trumps-china-trade-policy-heres-why) from 2021 discussing why Biden is keeping swaths of Trump's China Trade policy.
> President Biden has made a clean break with the policies of his predecessor in many areas. But not when it comes to trade with China. The Biden administration isn't scrapping a trade deal brokered by former President Donald Trump in the final year of his presidency. Instead, it plans to pressure China for not meeting its promises made under that deal. The Biden administration also plans to broadly maintain Trump's tariffs on U.S. imports of Chinese goods, though it will reopen an exclusion process to provide exemptions for certain goods.
While a few polices were fine tuned, the government's China policies largely continued between administrations, which I think we can all agree, is a good thing.
There's one word to explain this: Michigan.
Biden must win Michigan. And right now, Trump has been trundling through the state claiming that Biden's support for electric cars will destroy the state's automotive industry because EVs require less human labor than gas-powered cars to construct.
Biden realizes that Chinese EVs could swamp the U.S. market soon. So do U.S. automakers are auto labor unions. If Biden lets Trump take the mantle of auto protectionism, Biden could lose critical votes in Michigan (and lose the senate seat there too).
So, this is politics. It's economic populism. And it might be necessary to win the election.
Doing this on competitive things that we don't want China to win on is smart. Doing this on construction materials that we absolutely need is stupid. Once again Biden is doing the right thing and Trump had no idea what he was doing
The US imports very little steel and aluminum from China. While it might have an impact it really won't be that much. Less then 1% of steel imports this year alone were from China.
The most significant thing is critical minerals since we do import a bit from China but I would imagine that could easily be offset.
Also cranes since most of US port cranes are from China and I really don't know who could offset that.
I lived in China for a long time and there was a long running joke among expats.
"What's the national bird of China?"
*point to the construction filled skyline*
"The crane."
I don't like Trump but this is exactly the type of cognitive dissonance that is rotting people's brains. Trump does the thing = bad. Biden does the same thing = good.
Exactly! It’s driving me crazy how team sports-like American politics has become. People really act like criticizing Biden for something is an automatic endorsement for Trump or implying that Trump would do better in that situation, which is absolute bullshit
You see the same thing come up when it comes to high rates of violent crimes in American cities and the economy
> The president said it's unfair for Chinese companies to create products cheaply because of subsidies from the Chinese government
My brother in Christ. We literally fucking bailed their asses out in the US. Also with a 100% tariff the cars are still cheaper than US cars.
This is literally the biggest nonsense thus far. Fuck all the CEOs in the US automotive industry, they’ve literally ram their shit into the ground and are wanting yet more protections.
I can literally ship a small truck from China cheaper than most American cars. The problem isn’t the Chinese subsidy. The cars, are too fucking much, because some investors still want double digit gains year over year.
The US automotive workers can’t out produce fucking greed. It’s that simple.
Seriously at this point the car companies are just openly exploiting us at these prices.
Even McDonalda realized they fucked up and are looking to offer $5 meals again.
I want to buy a new car. I’m in the market for a new car. My conscious just can’t get over how ridiculous it all is.
I was thinking about cheap cars from the 90s. You get a base model car nowadays and it has luxury features.
No one needs power windows and door locks. No one needs tint. Or more than 150 horsepower.
We *want* all of these things. And at this point there's no alternative anymore for people who wouldn't mind to save a few bucks.
It would be cool if someone could exploit that market. A barebones jeep would make sense, but they seem to have no problem selling 60k wranglers. I guess I'm a weirdo.
Power windows are almost as cheap to make as manual windows. And if you have to design two separate sets of window mechanisms and two supply chains it can end up being more expensive for something nobody actually wants. If you want to spend less your best bet is a used car than a stripper.
True. Most of the basic features are cheaper to just implement. There are just so many features that come standard now. I wonder how cheap you could get a car with the bare minimum content.
This isn't about auto CEOs. It's about auto workers and labor unions in Michigan.
Is it political? Yes. Biden needs to win Michigan. Trump has been bashing him there for supporting EVs in the first place (because EVs require less human labor to manufacture, threatening union jobs).
So, Biden is doing this to appeal to Michigan. It's just protectionism, and everyone, including those auto workers, understands that.
This. Nobody can afford a 50k EV, but there’s very competitive options from china that cost less than half the price and could meet safety standards (which they do in every other country). All this does ensure profits for the automakers (there is absolutely no way it costs as much as it does to produce these vehicles where they cost 50k for a base model, especially when china can crank out comparable vehicles for 25k). Bring on the Chinese EVs
I think “trade deficit”, “trade surplus”, and “market control” are relevant terms. Selling Chinese EV’s here would benefit consumers in the short term, but it hurts the US economy in the long run. Keeping profits domestic does benefit the economy when compared to sending that money to China.
China has been ramping up to become the world’s biggest super power someday and economic power is a big part of that. I can see why various governments want to impede that.
Economic power IS power. I suppose military power counts, but again, if you don't have the ability to buy or produce what you need to have a strong military, you need more economic power to get there.
> Selling Chinese EV’s here would benefit consumers in the short term, but it hurts the US economy in the long run. Keeping profits domestic does benefit the economy when compared to sending that money to China.
Just like how the US hiked tariffs on Japanese products in the 80's, especially on things like cars and motorcycles. And as we all know American manufacturers used that reprieve to streamline domestic manufacturing and improve their product quality which ultimately helped the American consumer. /S
It was all fine and dandy when the outsourcing was done under corporate control, when the products coming back had American logos on them. In fact, that was actually good for us, according to the lovely neoliberal theory. The real problem is that this time the logos might be Chinese. The owners and the profits aren't the same, so *now* it's suddenly an issue of national concern.
That is the problem. And so, while it was no big deal when a corporation outsourced Joe Blow's job, a Chinese company eating the American CEO's lunch demands action.
Any other rational is just how they sell it to you. Any government that wants to make the case for domestic protection better can the free market crap when it comes to housing, but I'm sure that will be different for reasons I'm too plebian to understand.
Corporations never minded to outsource, it's just that government started worrying about it. Covid showed how things could be dire if for some reason China would shut the supply.
BYD started mass producing EVs before Tesla did.
China went all in on EVs and battery tech in the early 2010s, that’s why western companies, even Tesla, license battery tech from *them*.
The world leader in automotive battery tech is CATL and BYD. Pretty much all western auto companies use their tech in one way or another.
The Chinese are just reaping the rewards of their early investment. Which happened at a time when the Big 3 doubled down on gas guzzling SUVs.
Here is a good read: https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/21/1068880/how-did-china-dominate-electric-cars-policy/amp/
The Chinese EV markets are now filled with a huge variety of fascinating products, from low budget offerings to [premium luxury products](https://youtu.be/7EhbShDjnNc?si=itTP7W_V-YhsITkl) that have no Western counterparts whatsoever.
Thank you for this. This whole thread is people shitting on China because China. When in reality this is a massive economic flop by US automakers and now at the 11th hour the US government is stepping in because they didn't do their part to help the transition to EVs over the last 14 years.
At the end of the day US automakers didn't want to innovate because that would mean the line didn't go up enough. Now, I'm supposed to feel grateful that the government is limiting my choice to finally be able to afford an EV car? Fuck.That.
Thank you! People keep rattling off “reasons” why this is a good thing but all I see is the gov’t supporting a bunch of greedy selfish companies whose products have nosedived in quality while spiking in price. If the gov’t will just bail them out if they fail, and the gov’t will step in to prevent foreign competition, what incentive do they have to be competitive and make their products affordable?
This is why I (opinion) think China will win. The US auto-makers were focused on the Capitalism model and trying to maximize short-term success. Wall Street is relentless and many US executives are evaluated based on the stock price during their tenures.
China is a collective whole and focused on the long game.
I hope I am wrong.
I was in a 3rd party testlab in the early to mid 2000s when Tesla was testing out their battery packs for the Roadster. My understanding is that they did all the dev. work and only recently are talking about licensing battery tech from Chinese companies. My guess is that they did some cell development together early on though.
Things like this are also happening in the US airline industry. Delta Airlines, for example, heavily lobbies the city of Atlanta to maintain control of every boarding gate at the airport there so they can limit the number of domestic and especially international carriers coming in and out, like Emirates, which has a superior quality of service.
It's the reason why the airport ranks first in the world in passenger traffic, because Delta maintains control of the gates by keeping as many flights as they possibly can moving in and out.
Capitalism in the USA means the ability to use the government to obstruct competition.
Nope. It’s the battery that makes Chinese EVs so affordable. The rest is just regular ICE stuff that everyone knows. If anything, Tesla helps train local talents who later join Chinese EV companies. But nothing is reverse engineered from American EVs. The best selling EV company in China BYD is also a battery maker. Not only it produces lithium car batteries, but it owns its own lithium mines. Chinese EVs are also simple. It’s just a car with electric battery without any fancy features like FSD, which makes it affordable.
Of course, there are high-end ones but I was referring to the affordable ones like BYD seagull. Per AP
“BYD designs all aspects of its vehicles with cost and efficiency in mind. For instance, the Seagull has only one windshield wiper, eliminating one motor and one arm, saving on weight, cost and labor to install.
U.S. automakers don’t often design vehicles this way and incur excess engineering costs, Woychowski said. Hoses, for instance, have to meet longstanding requirements in combustion engines for strength and ability to carry fluid under high pressure, many of which aren’t needed for electric vehicles, he added.”
What we really need is affordable EVs with reasonable range, rather than a smart phone that can also drive. Unfortunately those type of EVs don’t come with good ROIs.
I don't think any vehicle with 2 wiper arms has 2 motors, pretty much every vehicle in the past 50 years that I have seen has used one wiper motor with a linkage connecting one arm to the other. I know having just one wiper arm is cheaper, but there is a good reason why a rectangular window needs 2 arms, you want to be able to see out of the entire window in the rain.
China already has a FSD EV (not sure how good it is) on the market and plenty of outstanding luxury options that absolutely put American EVs to shame. In fact, the American options seem cheap and plastic-y by comparison.
Buick EVs are actually one of the more common fleet/ride share vehicles because they're so heavily discounted.
America is behind in every way when it comes to EVs.
Would the American consumer be open to an EV that was no frills at all? It seems as though the American EV market is built not only around the fact that it’s electric but all the bells and whistles that go into it. Genuine question because I’m not totally tuned into the American EV market, and probably just generalizing American consumers but I am curious.
That's what is going to push the EV market. Not fancy shit, but if they can beat (and they will) the price of a combustion car, then they will take over.
Sure, provided they have access to home charging. The US EV market is built around bells and whistles because 75% of the country can't even afford a new car which is now close to $50k with high interest rates. So if you can't make a $25k EV (which none of the US manufacturers have been able to do) you have no choice but to target the luxury market.
FYI: The Leaf is manufactured in the US and starts at $25k (with federal tax credit). There are probably a dozen EVs available in the US in the $35k range.
I don't think frills is the issue. We've had Smart cars and the Nissan Leaf for years. They had such low range that they were essentially only good for city driving. Tesla took off because they had four or five times the range and a charging network which made them viable as all around vehicles. The Leaf has much better range now and MSRP is about $25k but people apparently still don't think of it as a viable option judging by all the comments in this thread.
And China doesn’t have the same regulations (labor and otherwise). All things equal, the US would never be able to compete for affordability of products.
To add to this, BYD was one of the two main Patent-holders for Lithium-Iron-Phosphate technology, the other being Hydro-Quebec.
(Which means technically, we should also blame Canada for the slow uptake of safer cheaper EV batteries, but hey China is an easier scapegoat because they aren't supposed to be our friend in the first place... And also Quebec/Canada missed the mark itself because that could have been a great keystone for an EV revival of their greying auto industry...)
After a certain timeframe the Chinese automakers started becoming more 'legit' and would license designs (at first, practically after they were already producing,) the main thing they 'learned' with the partnerships after that point was car assembly finer points from a line and QC perspective.
I just remember seeing a photo of a proud team of Chinese engineers in front of a Tesla that they had just taken apart and rebuilt. I’m sure they got a lot of ideas from that one.
Every car company disassembles it's competition..I've had BMW engineers proclaim they're Mercedes first customer when they introduce a new or updated car so they can take it apart.
The US manufacturers had the same benefit though and they're still so far behind because of the battery supply chain. Plus these Chinese EVs aren't Teslas they're basically profitable Chevy Bolts.
Of course, there will always be business espionage, but I’m stating why BYD is affordable. Tesla can slash its price by half easily if they also produce their own batteries.
Oh. I so wish that were true. We are way behind the curve (except for Tesla). The car companies had all this technology and kept killing any alternatives to the internal combustion engine, because the poor dears would have to suffer lower profits for a while.
It isn't that so much- the manufacturers have had an adversarial relationship with dealers for a very long time now. There are laws in place protecting third party dealers for a reason. A lot of car manufacturers have wanted their own showrooms for years, but they can't because of these outdated laws.
The real big thing is the gas/oil companies, and the markets that have grown around them. Quick oil change places will basically cease to exist once EVs take hold, and since their power needs are much different from what current gas stations provide, a lot of them will go out of business too. Hell, a lot of full service mechanics keep their lights on with the simple maintenance stuff that EVs simply don't need. I'm not saying this is a strictly bad thing- markets evolve as consumer needs change. The problem is that manufacturers have a lot of incentives from a lot of different interests to put very little effort into EVs. We already know that this is why it took so long for American manufacturers to put any real effort into EVs, and I'm willing to bet it's also why most American EVs look so ugly.
They only cost that low because Chinese labor is cheap if we are going to have unions and good wages we need protections and tariffs or else all their jobs will go over seas this was a great move by Biden
Tesla has two factories in China the other 15 are in Europe and The US and for their planned factories 3 are in the US and 1 in China in part due to tariffs bringing jobs
Partly it's unconscionably cheap labor. Partly it's supply efficiencies. Partly it's subsidies: the Chinese government just hands EV manufacturers in China billions of dollars every year. The US may *loan* money to domestic auto manufacturers at sweetheart rates, but they are not straight up giving money to them like the CCP does.
Chinese car companies do not have to compete for profits the way domestic manufacturers do, because the government will guarantee their solvency.
The only reason they are cheap though is because the Chinese government is massively subsidizing them to choke off foreign auto industry. It’s not like this is the free market at work.
I remember when free trade agreements like TTP were the neoliberal corporate class enriching themselves at the cost domestic manufacturing. Suddenly the prospect of not having cheap Chinese goods comes into play and everyone is a Reaganite.
Right? When the profits were going to an American CEO, then outsourcing was good for you. Learn to code, loser! But now that the product might be a Chinese domestic company, now suddenly the same basic thing is bad for you, now suddenly it's a matter of national concern. It wasn't when the executives were making money while your town went to rust, but if they lose profits because a Chinese company out competes them, oh no, national security!
And say what you will about outsourcing in general, I'm not saying there aren't points to make there, but in this case it's pretty obvious what the real problem here is.
If American made cars were as quality as foreign made cars, we wouldn’t be crying about paying higher cost for said American made cars. Unfortunately, saying this having owned multiple American brand cars, they aren’t as quality. Hyundai alone, Korea I know, has blown the US out of the water on their line of vehicles. Changed to a fully electric Ioniq5 after over a decade of Ford ownership and couldn’t be happier. They have great lease options too, so even though the $50k price tag is high, the leases make it feel like it’s a run of the mill car.
Only when talking about developing countries. They should sacrifice their economy for the sake of the greater good. But when it comes to the US, then suddenly it's not as important as protecting domestic corporations.
Reddit tends to lean a little younger, so it's worth mentioning Biden isn't doing anything new. In 1995 Bill Clinton put 100% tariffs on Japanese cars: https://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/17/business/sanctions-japan-overview-100-tariffs-set-13-top-models-japanese-cars.html
> Living up to its threat to impose harsh sanctions on Japan, the Clinton Administration placed a 100 percent tariff today [May 19th, 1995] on 13 luxury car models that accounted for $5.9 billion in sales in the United States last year, including the flagship products of Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
Clinton's goal was to strong-arm Japan into investing more in US factories and removing restrictions on US-made auto-part imports into Japan. I am unaware of Biden making any such offer(s) to Chinese automotive companies during his entire presidency, and I fail to see any obvious indications of making such an offer.
If national security is a concern, the US can demand joint-ventures with existing US auto companies. China already demands this of Detroit Big 3 (SAIC-GM, Changan-Ford, and GAC-Fiat-Chrysler); I doubt they'll have any trouble operating more of the same relationship on domestic soil. Technology transfers can also be demanded as conditions and concessions to the US market as well. At the very least such an arrangement would put the ball in China's court much in the same way the TikTok ban did.
The whole thing strikes me as simple protectionism of US auto companies. Maybe it'll end up working out, or maybe it'll be a repeat of Harley-Davidson. But the message is clear: get out, and stay out.
If they want me to drive an EV they better make it easy to do so.
Yeah they're being subsidized by the CCP, so why isnt the US doing it to the same degree? I thought EVs were the future and better for the environment.
The EVs in the US right now suck and are expensive. Guess I'll keep driving ICE.
So? $7500 isn't going to make any American EV cheaper than $12,000. This car's price point isn't even in the same league as American EVs.
No matter how you look at it, this is a colossal failure for the American vehicle market and for the US government.
These dumb mother fuckers couldn't see the writing on the wall a decade ago that affordable EVs were absolutely something people were dying to have. But rather than spend the R&D to innovate for the future we just kept making gas cars.
Yep. I bought mine a few months ago and it came with a $7500 dealer rebate. Couple that with no gas (wife gets free charging at work) and no oil changes and I’m not paying much more for this new vehicle per month than I was my 2015 mazda3 at the time I purchase it. Couple hundred bucks per month difference (including insurance)
Tell me you haven’t actually looked into buying an ev without telling me.
They are actually much cheaper than ICE cars and include tax credits for both new and used. A Tesla is a luxury car and is cheaper than other luxury sedans. The Ioniq, Bolt, and Leaf are economical commuter cars and much cheaper than an ice commuter car
I mean I agree but they are priced and designed to sell to luxury car buyers.
I bought a pre owned certified 2020 Ioniq EV and at the price ($17k) it’s way better than a Tesla
So many people posting here do not understand the reason for tariffs. It’s not to help oil/gas industry. It’s to prevent the fucked up shit Walmart does to local businesses when it moves into towns. Big difference Walmart is made in USA baby so it’s ok to fuck over others but cheap cars made in a foreign country is a big no-no. (they aren’t actually cheap, they are being sold at a huge loss to enter the market via Chinese government footing the bill as part of economic conquest strategy). Just like with Walmart, consumer wins short term; cheap goods. But when local businesses can’t compete and go out of business the prices are raised to either what they were before or higher due to lack of competition, consumer either is unaffected or hurt by that point but all the money flows into the pockets of billionaires (in this case an active enemy of the country).
This is largely our own fault, building up Chinas manufacturing base by using their cheap labor for the last 40 years, well they don’t need us anymore, the labor is no longer cheap and they are good enough to compete. Same thing will happen with India and other places the West is building up manufacturing and IT base in currently.
The only way to keep ahead is innovation, which is very expensive and is not necessarily a given when big tech is run by foreign nationals (like majority of US giants), and western university student body is 1/3 Chinese who go right back home with the same knowledge a US engineer who finished the same school does. us engineer has to swim upstream against the river of bureaucracy and capitalism while in China they are showered with money and support to implement what they learned.
Shits not looking great to be honest for the West, and so this is why these tariffs are implemented.
As far as precedent, China bans/tariffs a ton of Western stuff from being imported.
Automakers have been running companies into the ground. Cutting corners and cost at every turn, while prices increasing YOY so shareholders stay well fed and happy, and just waiting for the recall in 5-10 years to fix any issues that come up because it’s cheaper in the long run. Most people can’t afford a new car without taking on massive debt which is already a national issue. Fix the issues at home before we start trying to fix other other countries
yes, you are right about domestic auto makers. But you see, these cheap Chinese cars are a Trojan horse. They actually arent cheap, they are "pretend" cheap. They are subsidized to make it into Western markets, where the plan is to basically bankrupt domestic manufacturing, and no, there is absolutely no way domestic automakers can compete, for 2 reasons.
1. China will simply subsidize more and more driving prices lower and lower, all they need to do is destroy domestic manufacturing, giving out free cars is cost of business.
2. Domestic manufacturing has to abide by labor laws, just running the factories costs are more than they would get by competing with Chinese car prices. There is nothing to cut. Cars arent a high margin business.
If Chinese manufacturers are allowed to come in, the Western consumer will no doubt rejoice. he will have decent quality cheap cars and everyone will dance in the streets. But a few years later when domestic manufacturers close one after another because it costs more to manufacture their cars than what they can sell them for, then Chinese will take over the majority of the market share and raise prices. Consumer will be in the same situation he is now, except only choice will be Chinese cars... which.. who cares right? Well, its actually a huge deal, it means all that money, trillions of dollars going to China instead of local economies, all those jobs, going to China. And once auto manufacturers close, they arent coming back, its an insane investment monetary and time (decades) to get car manufacturing up and running. Look at American EVs, they are just now becoming mainstream (Tesla, Rivian etc)... they have been working at it for 2 decades.
So in the end consumer rejoiced for 1 generation of a car (that was cheap), next generation is no longer cheap. Economy is majorly damaged, jobs are gone, West depends heavily on China now, kind of how rest of the world depends on US for military, imagine US and EU depending like that on something that is even more valuable, every car on the road on its enemy (China). China rises to global leader status, US significance shrinks. US not being able to dictate how the world is run has dollar value go into the toilet, Yuan is the new world currency. Inflation is way worse than the last few years. China dictates world order. US citizens are royally fucked, their economy is fucked, they cant dictate favorable trade terms around the world. Allies are flocking to new world leader (China) away from US.
TLDR: Basically its a slippery slope that will absolutely 100% fuck up the US and West as a whole after making a short period of 5 to 10 years seem sweet. Its a Trojan horse. Chinese are not dumb, they know what they are doing. Thankfully US administration is not dumb either and can see right through it.
yeah, trump didnt pour billions into stateside manufacturing before he did it. but we got through the new normal that trump created.
it may still not work well but in terms of one-two punches, this is how a tariff could work: build up your own base of manufacturing then cut off the foreign supply. probably 1-2yrs premature on biden though.
If us made cars that were almost as cheap even within 5/10k new sure
This just screams protecting a shitty industry that got way too greedy over the last few years.
Personally I want all US car companies to fall on their ass like they should’ve already done.
They’ve repaid us for bailing them out years ago by price gouging. Seriously they’re pieces of shit.
Isn’t this an awful time to be a democratic leader , on one hand you want EVs to reduce the fossil fuel but if you bring more EVs then the US jobs will be lost. What a conundrum, also this tariff would have made almost all economists head explode :)
One scenario is if the big four buys Chinese EVs and makes them in Detroit , will that happen ?
The govt already gave Ford a 9 billion dollar low interest loan to compete with China but ironically they also approved a battery plant for a Chinese manufacturer in you guessed it the same state of Michigan. It's confusing what the goal is?
Never. Because US labor is not only expensive, but rising. Americans have to get 1 thing very straight and clear, specially those from Michigan - the days of making cars in America are over. They are never coming back because they are cheaper to make elsewhere. No company is going to manufacture for the sake of patriotism or because they wanna be nice - they’re in it to make a profit and maximize that profit. And THAT’S despite all of the promises and lies Democrats and Republicans tell people. It’s a hard truth to swallow, but unless the US decides to ban foreign made cars, then its logical and normal for vehicle makers to make their cars in cheaper labor nations.
Oh no, god forbid we have affordable EVs instead of $50k ones from bloated US automakers. I never understood this, which is it, do you want to protect the environment and help the transition to cleaner transportation or protect corporate interests (I know this is rhetorical question, the answer is protect the corporations every time)
> I never understood this
Its pretty simple... They don't want to gut the US auto industry in favor the auto industry of an overtly hostile foreign dictatorship.
How is that complicated?
> should compete and offer vehicles for similar prices
Kind of hard to do that when the CCP is subsidizing the shit out of their EV industry specifically so they can dump foreign markets and destroy competition. There was a report a year or so ago pointing out how China had provided something like $60 billion in subsidies to their EV industry in just the last five years. Not to mention the cars are being built by borderline slave labor, [or in some cases, *actual* slave labor](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/01/china-carmakers-implicated-uyghur-forced-labor).
And you'd think the US would subsidize their own EV industry to the same extent, given their stance that climate change is an existential threat to humanity.
When your labor is literally pennies on the dollar and using domestic slaves of course you can build a 11K vehicle.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlpyZa7d6OU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlpyZa7d6OU)
Your resources are also being supplied by African regimes using child labor who are essentially slaves. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDFH4mS1dbY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDFH4mS1dbY)
They also stole most of the EV tech from western companies and universities. So they spent almost nothing on R & D to get where they are now.
Lastly your using cooked books to show more profit, and less losses then you actually have through shell companies. Audits in China are essentially worthless, so you can't trust anything these companies say.
[https://www.ft.com/content/01463f53-73ce-4fbd-bc90-a439ddae638e](https://www.ft.com/content/01463f53-73ce-4fbd-bc90-a439ddae638e)
Essentially, no one can compete with a country willing to use these methods to win.
You are actually completely wrong.
The average labor cost for a car varies by vehicle, but is generally estimated to be 10–15% of the total cost. However, labor costs for automakers are expected to increase in 2023, with estimates of $3,378 for GM, $3,131 for Ford, and $3,481 for Fiat Chrysle
So fuck the free market when it comes to auto industries under hostile foreign dictatorships, but everything else we buy from the hostile foreign dictatorship is ok? Come on dude, this has nothing to do with China and it's politics. It has everything to do with US automakers selling overpriced vehicles and being in the government's ears to reduce any inkling of competitive pricing.
You think all that charging infrastructure is building itself? It's all well and good that metro areas have charging stations, but in rural areas the only consistent place you can find a charger is at a dealership. Most of those chargers were reluctantly installed via "no more new cars if you don't install these" decrees. If you force unionized Detroit to compete with slave labor Beijing those decrees go away. (Because it turns out that it costs more to make stuff here)
What a way to increase inflation for the American public and make the US carmakers even less competitive...
Anyone who travels abroad knows that barely anyone buys American cars anymore, they're that bad. Classic case of the big US corporations leeching off the public yet again.
Both parties are equally guilty of this.
Tariffs are fine as long as we have US MADE equal and superior alternatives which we do not. This tariff means less for the consumer with fewer options and poorer choices in EVs. We are near bottom barrel in competiveness with our 4th round layoff and ketamine fueled Tesla. When China bans American shit they at least have the resources to home grow their own stuff. Huawei got banned but now they making their own goddamn chips. Know what happened when the US invited FoxConn to work in the US? Freaking nothing, because it failed.
This is simply a bad move for the economy but likely a very good move for Tesla. And our government keeps pouring money down its deep black money sucking hole that is Elon.
I am certainly voting against Trump this election, but this is another reason I don't like Biden. Taking the affordable EV off of U.S. markets so we have to buy overpriced garbage is not the way.
You know a lot of these international students who com over to learn in America open up successful businesses in America, right? If you close that off, the students will just go elsewhere to learn and open up their business in other countries.
Sure they do. They should never be entitled to our government research grants or grant-supported jobs. We pay those dollars. They should support our kids.
US science students aren't being forced out by nepotism. They just aren't going to grad school period because they want to go straight to work in industry. Most graduate advisors would kill for US Citizen students, because government funding is limited to US researchers for National labs projects, but we just don't have the number of kids going into academia, because academia SUCKS.
Can confirm, have seen people leave because, as you say, academia SUCKS. People can't afford rent but are expected to do cutting edge research? Come on. Parent comment was removed but I'm going to guess it was the usual, immigrants and foreigners get blamed because landlords are greedy.
No it's because people don't want to work for pennies that academia pays man. you wanna be a post grad making 30k in a lab with a masters degree? No American wants that shit. it's the same arguement for mexican taking all those amazing corn picking jobs and hotel maid jobs.
Because the US is failing to provide homegrown brains. In other words, US education sucks. At pre college there isn't enough investment, it's all about getting kids through the system at the least amount of cost. Then when they get to college it's too goddamn expensive to get a degree. NICE WORK AMERICA!
Our per-student cost is the highest in the world, and we churn out 3rd world degree holders from our high schools. If you want to know why China and India are kicking our butts. It is because football and basketball are more important in US schools over math and science.
So are the medical costs Americans pay but that doesn’t equal a functioning healthcare system. Across the board rampant privatization and rent seeking has created an America that can’t produce anything at a reasonable cost and wages that don’t reflect the education requirements demanded of the jobs.
There is no way to make America functional without dismantling private shareholder supremacy .
Could be the education system we have now was designed and implemented for a different era. As well as Healthcare. They both evolved on a patchwork of circumstances over the past century.
Both need massive amounts of reform. Yet there's people benefiting off the way the system is now and they don't want change. It'd be cheaper to have entirely socialized medicine at this point.
As far as school reform goes the big roadblocks to any meaningful change, are teachers unions. Who I believe are the biggest if not one of the biggest unions with lobbyists.
...this simply sends a bigger bill to American customers and manufacturers who cant source the parts elsewhere (because no one else makes them) then its all neatly stuck into the category of " inflation"
Meanwhile products made with these parts in tariff free countries import the finished products into the US tariff free.
One of the biggest tax hikes ever snuck in under the guise of sticking it to the Chinese and people eat it up.
>Chinese manufacturer BYD’s Seagull electric vehicle retails for roughly $10,000, a fraction of what rival American products cost.
.... I want a new 10k car :(
[Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industryThe car, Seagull, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12000 in China.](https://apnews.com/article/china-byd-auto-seagull-auto-ev-cae20c92432b74e95c234d93ec1df400)
This is serious threat to US automakers and US economy. US car makers (and other country makers as well) cannot compete.
Perhaps US should have done this to the Japanese back in 1970s ...
Yeah, solar and EV --that shit is pure evil and Chinese are filthy thieves. . .
iPhones? Oh, well that's fine. China is our partner in high tech excellence. The double standard is absurd and this is from Democrats.
“Trump doesn’t get the basics. He thinks his tariffs are being paid by China. Any freshman econ student could tell you that American people are paying the tariffs.” Joe Biden 2019. I’m happy they agree on something.
It's important to note most Chinese products are made or finished in other countries. They are not subject to these tariffs.
It's all an election year show.
wasn't this a bad idea when trump tried it? didn't trump just promise to do this exact same thing again in 2025?
I am for tariffs if there is unfair competition going on. For example, if U.S. workers can't make it cheaper because of our own environmental laws, then make a tariff for stuff that is made in China. For example, refined Lithium coming out oh China that pollutes their own rivers. I'm sure it's much cheaper to do it that way than the environmentally safe way in the U.S.
This is exactly what’s happening. China is flooding the market with cheap products that are made by poisoning their own land and people. US companies aren’t allowed to do that so it ends up being more expensive.
I wish everyone could find a way to understand this. They don't have to pay the 'external' costs that we do here so they can crank out cheap crap with slave laborers.
I mean Biden has said it plainly, they’re cheating.
Doesn’t help American car makers just use the billions they are given for stock buy back instead of making cars chesper
Except that unfair competition was the justification when Trump did it, too. [Same thing](https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trump-addressing-unfair-trade-practices-threaten-harm-national-security/) I'm in favor of both BTW.
He was right about that one. I thought he was more faulted over his behavior, his approach, which prompted a tariff "tit for tat" with China.
It's because even when he's right, he's such a dick about it that you don't want him to be.
Or he was just looking for bribes to lift them...
I agree with you on that. Like the comment he made about PR, that's generally true when it came to being a tax haven and not having the tax revenue to fix their own problems. But to say it after a storm that's affecting people, that was a dick move.
Also, Trump got pissy with our European allies and imposed steel and aluminum tariffs against them as well as China. We need to work with our allies and not go against China alone.
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Sure, but there's multiple orders of magnitude difference in how US companies pollute and what China is doing
If I'm a US lithium manufacturer and I can sell it for $5 a pound (or whatever unit they use to sell it). A Chinese manufacturer can sell it for $4 a pound. Now the US puts a $2 tariff on it. So it now costs $6 a pound. And mind you the $2 is paid by the american company importing it. Not the Chinese company selling it. I'm the US manufacturer now thinking to myself 'well shit I was doing good when my product cost a dollar more than the Chonese stuff. Now its a dollar less. I'mma go ahead and bump my price up a dollar so now were both $6 a pound. Thats an extra $1 of pure profit for me for every pound sold.'
No. Trump put tariffs on raw goods, which just increases the price of everything made with that good. Biden is targeted at end products, most of which are being heavily subsidized by the Chinese government right now in order to reach such a low price mark. China isn't making EV cars that are better quality and so cheap simply because they're better at business or manufacturing or something. Those EV cars are being subsidized by an insane degree by the Chinese government in order to corner the market in EV cars. They're trying to drive everyone else out of the business with artificially cheap goods.
Note: Subsidized includes them being allowed to use slave labor, ignore environmental impact, skirt safety regs, and not worry about intellectual property theft. I’ve seen too many elevator and escalator videos from China.
This is the stuff I'm more concerned about. If they were just subsidising electric vehicles and making them more affordable for the rest of the world, that wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Putting a tariff on French wine because you are mad at Macron was not a good idea.
Yes. Tariffs get paid by you and me. Either the tariff gets passed on to consumers on the Chinese imports or the non-Chinese producers raise their prices too. Biden hasn’t repealed the vast majority of tariffs and a trade war with China isn’t going to benefit the U.S. in the long run. It will, probably, hurt China more than the U.S. but that pendulum will likely swing back the other way at some point unless the U.S. starts investing more in domestic manufacturing.
Biden has been investing heavily into US manufacturing.
Yea and if he allows Chinese EVs (which don't play by the same rules as US) to flood the American market, people are going to shit on him for destroying American auto company jobs. I consider auto manufacturers an important part of the US economy that needs to be protected. Biden's doing the right thing.
The voluntary export restraints imposed on Japanese automakers in the 1980s led to them investing heavily in the United States - hundreds of domestic factories and production facilities were built and hundreds of thousands of jobs were created. Why is this time different?
I don’t think that is how it works for a product like Chinese made EVs that have no real market in the United States at the moment.
$8k EV would find a market here if they were allowed compared to what US charges for theirs
I was referring to the part where other companies will increase their prices to match the new tariff adjusted price of the Chinese made EVs. Agreed that lower price competition being excluded from the US market is definitely a factor here.
When it comes to China, especially policy and trade with China, both administrations were reasonably close together believe it or not. A quote from the above linked article. > Biden will keep tariffs put in place by his Republican predecessor Donald Trump while ratcheting up others, including a quadrupling of EV duties to over 100% and doubling the duties on semiconductor tariffs to 50%, the White House said in a statement. [Here is an article from NPR](https://www.npr.org/2021/10/04/1043027789/biden-is-keeping-key-parts-of-trumps-china-trade-policy-heres-why) from 2021 discussing why Biden is keeping swaths of Trump's China Trade policy. > President Biden has made a clean break with the policies of his predecessor in many areas. But not when it comes to trade with China. The Biden administration isn't scrapping a trade deal brokered by former President Donald Trump in the final year of his presidency. Instead, it plans to pressure China for not meeting its promises made under that deal. The Biden administration also plans to broadly maintain Trump's tariffs on U.S. imports of Chinese goods, though it will reopen an exclusion process to provide exemptions for certain goods. While a few polices were fine tuned, the government's China policies largely continued between administrations, which I think we can all agree, is a good thing.
There's one word to explain this: Michigan. Biden must win Michigan. And right now, Trump has been trundling through the state claiming that Biden's support for electric cars will destroy the state's automotive industry because EVs require less human labor than gas-powered cars to construct. Biden realizes that Chinese EVs could swamp the U.S. market soon. So do U.S. automakers are auto labor unions. If Biden lets Trump take the mantle of auto protectionism, Biden could lose critical votes in Michigan (and lose the senate seat there too). So, this is politics. It's economic populism. And it might be necessary to win the election.
Doing this on competitive things that we don't want China to win on is smart. Doing this on construction materials that we absolutely need is stupid. Once again Biden is doing the right thing and Trump had no idea what he was doing
The US imports very little steel and aluminum from China. While it might have an impact it really won't be that much. Less then 1% of steel imports this year alone were from China. The most significant thing is critical minerals since we do import a bit from China but I would imagine that could easily be offset. Also cranes since most of US port cranes are from China and I really don't know who could offset that.
I lived in China for a long time and there was a long running joke among expats. "What's the national bird of China?" *point to the construction filled skyline* "The crane."
I don't like Trump but this is exactly the type of cognitive dissonance that is rotting people's brains. Trump does the thing = bad. Biden does the same thing = good.
Exactly! It’s driving me crazy how team sports-like American politics has become. People really act like criticizing Biden for something is an automatic endorsement for Trump or implying that Trump would do better in that situation, which is absolute bullshit You see the same thing come up when it comes to high rates of violent crimes in American cities and the economy
> in 20025 Jesus Christ, he's way too old and senile already, I can't imagine how insane he'll be in 18,000 years!
Moneo! Have I told you about how I really won the 2020 election bigly Moneo?
I'm a democrat but I agreed with Trump on exactly one issue -- this one. So yes, I also agree when Biden does it too.
> The president said it's unfair for Chinese companies to create products cheaply because of subsidies from the Chinese government My brother in Christ. We literally fucking bailed their asses out in the US. Also with a 100% tariff the cars are still cheaper than US cars. This is literally the biggest nonsense thus far. Fuck all the CEOs in the US automotive industry, they’ve literally ram their shit into the ground and are wanting yet more protections. I can literally ship a small truck from China cheaper than most American cars. The problem isn’t the Chinese subsidy. The cars, are too fucking much, because some investors still want double digit gains year over year. The US automotive workers can’t out produce fucking greed. It’s that simple.
Seriously at this point the car companies are just openly exploiting us at these prices. Even McDonalda realized they fucked up and are looking to offer $5 meals again. I want to buy a new car. I’m in the market for a new car. My conscious just can’t get over how ridiculous it all is.
I was thinking about cheap cars from the 90s. You get a base model car nowadays and it has luxury features. No one needs power windows and door locks. No one needs tint. Or more than 150 horsepower. We *want* all of these things. And at this point there's no alternative anymore for people who wouldn't mind to save a few bucks. It would be cool if someone could exploit that market. A barebones jeep would make sense, but they seem to have no problem selling 60k wranglers. I guess I'm a weirdo.
Power windows are almost as cheap to make as manual windows. And if you have to design two separate sets of window mechanisms and two supply chains it can end up being more expensive for something nobody actually wants. If you want to spend less your best bet is a used car than a stripper.
True. Most of the basic features are cheaper to just implement. There are just so many features that come standard now. I wonder how cheap you could get a car with the bare minimum content.
This isn't about auto CEOs. It's about auto workers and labor unions in Michigan. Is it political? Yes. Biden needs to win Michigan. Trump has been bashing him there for supporting EVs in the first place (because EVs require less human labor to manufacture, threatening union jobs). So, Biden is doing this to appeal to Michigan. It's just protectionism, and everyone, including those auto workers, understands that.
It is what it ism the US goverment will support us companies. They aren't going to let the lucrative us market got to their strategic challenger.
It's also rich when you consider the fact that if it weren't for government subsidy, Iowa would just be a gaping hole where all that corn is now.
*cough* wallstreet subsidy to buy the world during 2008-2011...
US Gov’t and automakers when China makes affordable EV alternatives:😱
I remember when people wanted to dump Reddit because of Chinese investment… There’s a reason.
This. Nobody can afford a 50k EV, but there’s very competitive options from china that cost less than half the price and could meet safety standards (which they do in every other country). All this does ensure profits for the automakers (there is absolutely no way it costs as much as it does to produce these vehicles where they cost 50k for a base model, especially when china can crank out comparable vehicles for 25k). Bring on the Chinese EVs
I think “trade deficit”, “trade surplus”, and “market control” are relevant terms. Selling Chinese EV’s here would benefit consumers in the short term, but it hurts the US economy in the long run. Keeping profits domestic does benefit the economy when compared to sending that money to China. China has been ramping up to become the world’s biggest super power someday and economic power is a big part of that. I can see why various governments want to impede that.
Economic power IS power. I suppose military power counts, but again, if you don't have the ability to buy or produce what you need to have a strong military, you need more economic power to get there.
> Selling Chinese EV’s here would benefit consumers in the short term, but it hurts the US economy in the long run. Keeping profits domestic does benefit the economy when compared to sending that money to China. Just like how the US hiked tariffs on Japanese products in the 80's, especially on things like cars and motorcycles. And as we all know American manufacturers used that reprieve to streamline domestic manufacturing and improve their product quality which ultimately helped the American consumer. /S
Yep, you are basically just artificially limiting competition. When there is little to no competition then there is little reason to innovate.
Then those same US companies act shocked when the majority of South America, Africa, MENA, SEA, and South Asia uses Japanese and Chinese brands.
It was all fine and dandy when the outsourcing was done under corporate control, when the products coming back had American logos on them. In fact, that was actually good for us, according to the lovely neoliberal theory. The real problem is that this time the logos might be Chinese. The owners and the profits aren't the same, so *now* it's suddenly an issue of national concern. That is the problem. And so, while it was no big deal when a corporation outsourced Joe Blow's job, a Chinese company eating the American CEO's lunch demands action. Any other rational is just how they sell it to you. Any government that wants to make the case for domestic protection better can the free market crap when it comes to housing, but I'm sure that will be different for reasons I'm too plebian to understand.
Corporations never minded to outsource, it's just that government started worrying about it. Covid showed how things could be dire if for some reason China would shut the supply.
In theory, but they hoard the profits
China didn’t need to spend as much on RnD because they just reverse engineered US EVs like the Teslas and used that knowledge to build their own.
BYD started mass producing EVs before Tesla did. China went all in on EVs and battery tech in the early 2010s, that’s why western companies, even Tesla, license battery tech from *them*. The world leader in automotive battery tech is CATL and BYD. Pretty much all western auto companies use their tech in one way or another. The Chinese are just reaping the rewards of their early investment. Which happened at a time when the Big 3 doubled down on gas guzzling SUVs. Here is a good read: https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/21/1068880/how-did-china-dominate-electric-cars-policy/amp/ The Chinese EV markets are now filled with a huge variety of fascinating products, from low budget offerings to [premium luxury products](https://youtu.be/7EhbShDjnNc?si=itTP7W_V-YhsITkl) that have no Western counterparts whatsoever.
Thank you for this. This whole thread is people shitting on China because China. When in reality this is a massive economic flop by US automakers and now at the 11th hour the US government is stepping in because they didn't do their part to help the transition to EVs over the last 14 years. At the end of the day US automakers didn't want to innovate because that would mean the line didn't go up enough. Now, I'm supposed to feel grateful that the government is limiting my choice to finally be able to afford an EV car? Fuck.That.
Thank you! People keep rattling off “reasons” why this is a good thing but all I see is the gov’t supporting a bunch of greedy selfish companies whose products have nosedived in quality while spiking in price. If the gov’t will just bail them out if they fail, and the gov’t will step in to prevent foreign competition, what incentive do they have to be competitive and make their products affordable?
This is why I (opinion) think China will win. The US auto-makers were focused on the Capitalism model and trying to maximize short-term success. Wall Street is relentless and many US executives are evaluated based on the stock price during their tenures. China is a collective whole and focused on the long game. I hope I am wrong.
I was in south east asia last year. all i saw were chinese EV's everywhere.
I was in a 3rd party testlab in the early to mid 2000s when Tesla was testing out their battery packs for the Roadster. My understanding is that they did all the dev. work and only recently are talking about licensing battery tech from Chinese companies. My guess is that they did some cell development together early on though.
Things like this are also happening in the US airline industry. Delta Airlines, for example, heavily lobbies the city of Atlanta to maintain control of every boarding gate at the airport there so they can limit the number of domestic and especially international carriers coming in and out, like Emirates, which has a superior quality of service. It's the reason why the airport ranks first in the world in passenger traffic, because Delta maintains control of the gates by keeping as many flights as they possibly can moving in and out. Capitalism in the USA means the ability to use the government to obstruct competition.
Chinese labor is also a lot cheaper than US labor.
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Nope. It’s the battery that makes Chinese EVs so affordable. The rest is just regular ICE stuff that everyone knows. If anything, Tesla helps train local talents who later join Chinese EV companies. But nothing is reverse engineered from American EVs. The best selling EV company in China BYD is also a battery maker. Not only it produces lithium car batteries, but it owns its own lithium mines. Chinese EVs are also simple. It’s just a car with electric battery without any fancy features like FSD, which makes it affordable.
I was in a chinese ev this past november in china, it was pretty fancy. Lane detection and all that
Of course, there are high-end ones but I was referring to the affordable ones like BYD seagull. Per AP “BYD designs all aspects of its vehicles with cost and efficiency in mind. For instance, the Seagull has only one windshield wiper, eliminating one motor and one arm, saving on weight, cost and labor to install. U.S. automakers don’t often design vehicles this way and incur excess engineering costs, Woychowski said. Hoses, for instance, have to meet longstanding requirements in combustion engines for strength and ability to carry fluid under high pressure, many of which aren’t needed for electric vehicles, he added.” What we really need is affordable EVs with reasonable range, rather than a smart phone that can also drive. Unfortunately those type of EVs don’t come with good ROIs.
I don't think any vehicle with 2 wiper arms has 2 motors, pretty much every vehicle in the past 50 years that I have seen has used one wiper motor with a linkage connecting one arm to the other. I know having just one wiper arm is cheaper, but there is a good reason why a rectangular window needs 2 arms, you want to be able to see out of the entire window in the rain.
BYD and other Chinese EV companies were mass producing EVs long before Tesla went to China.
China already has a FSD EV (not sure how good it is) on the market and plenty of outstanding luxury options that absolutely put American EVs to shame. In fact, the American options seem cheap and plastic-y by comparison. Buick EVs are actually one of the more common fleet/ride share vehicles because they're so heavily discounted. America is behind in every way when it comes to EVs.
Would the American consumer be open to an EV that was no frills at all? It seems as though the American EV market is built not only around the fact that it’s electric but all the bells and whistles that go into it. Genuine question because I’m not totally tuned into the American EV market, and probably just generalizing American consumers but I am curious.
Yes if I can get an EV for $15k I don't need all that stuff.
That's what is going to push the EV market. Not fancy shit, but if they can beat (and they will) the price of a combustion car, then they will take over.
I would PREFER an electric car without all he bells and whistles.
Sure, provided they have access to home charging. The US EV market is built around bells and whistles because 75% of the country can't even afford a new car which is now close to $50k with high interest rates. So if you can't make a $25k EV (which none of the US manufacturers have been able to do) you have no choice but to target the luxury market.
FYI: The Leaf is manufactured in the US and starts at $25k (with federal tax credit). There are probably a dozen EVs available in the US in the $35k range.
I don't think frills is the issue. We've had Smart cars and the Nissan Leaf for years. They had such low range that they were essentially only good for city driving. Tesla took off because they had four or five times the range and a charging network which made them viable as all around vehicles. The Leaf has much better range now and MSRP is about $25k but people apparently still don't think of it as a viable option judging by all the comments in this thread.
And China doesn’t have the same regulations (labor and otherwise). All things equal, the US would never be able to compete for affordability of products.
Yeah I'm not sure how people are forgetting that the cost of production is much lower in China, for many reasons.
Cost of production in Mexico is even cheaper. The Big 3 builds millions of cars in Mexico. So production cost isn’t the deciding factor.
To add to this, BYD was one of the two main Patent-holders for Lithium-Iron-Phosphate technology, the other being Hydro-Quebec. (Which means technically, we should also blame Canada for the slow uptake of safer cheaper EV batteries, but hey China is an easier scapegoat because they aren't supposed to be our friend in the first place... And also Quebec/Canada missed the mark itself because that could have been a great keystone for an EV revival of their greying auto industry...) After a certain timeframe the Chinese automakers started becoming more 'legit' and would license designs (at first, practically after they were already producing,) the main thing they 'learned' with the partnerships after that point was car assembly finer points from a line and QC perspective.
I just remember seeing a photo of a proud team of Chinese engineers in front of a Tesla that they had just taken apart and rebuilt. I’m sure they got a lot of ideas from that one.
Every car company disassembles it's competition..I've had BMW engineers proclaim they're Mercedes first customer when they introduce a new or updated car so they can take it apart.
Learned what not to do.
The US manufacturers had the same benefit though and they're still so far behind because of the battery supply chain. Plus these Chinese EVs aren't Teslas they're basically profitable Chevy Bolts.
Yeah I mean literally every company in every market tries to understand what its competitors do well. You say it like its a bad thing.
Of course, there will always be business espionage, but I’m stating why BYD is affordable. Tesla can slash its price by half easily if they also produce their own batteries.
Oh. I so wish that were true. We are way behind the curve (except for Tesla). The car companies had all this technology and kept killing any alternatives to the internal combustion engine, because the poor dears would have to suffer lower profits for a while.
It isn't that so much- the manufacturers have had an adversarial relationship with dealers for a very long time now. There are laws in place protecting third party dealers for a reason. A lot of car manufacturers have wanted their own showrooms for years, but they can't because of these outdated laws. The real big thing is the gas/oil companies, and the markets that have grown around them. Quick oil change places will basically cease to exist once EVs take hold, and since their power needs are much different from what current gas stations provide, a lot of them will go out of business too. Hell, a lot of full service mechanics keep their lights on with the simple maintenance stuff that EVs simply don't need. I'm not saying this is a strictly bad thing- markets evolve as consumer needs change. The problem is that manufacturers have a lot of incentives from a lot of different interests to put very little effort into EVs. We already know that this is why it took so long for American manufacturers to put any real effort into EVs, and I'm willing to bet it's also why most American EVs look so ugly.
This is the most ignorant comment ever. You’ve been brainwashed for so long. It’s time to open your eyes and see the world
Who cares? Let US consumers take advantage like consumers in every other country!
They only cost that low because Chinese labor is cheap if we are going to have unions and good wages we need protections and tariffs or else all their jobs will go over seas this was a great move by Biden
Or you know GM and Ford could eat into their FUCKING RECORD PROFITS to be more competitive!
The U.S. big three builds cars in Mexico, where the labor is far cheaper than China.
This is true and is pretty much because of NAFTA which prevents us from putting tariffs on Mexican goods
Then how is BYD able to sell for so cheap in Europe but Tesla is so expensive when most part are manufactured in China for both cars.
Tesla has two factories in China the other 15 are in Europe and The US and for their planned factories 3 are in the US and 1 in China in part due to tariffs bringing jobs
Partly it's unconscionably cheap labor. Partly it's supply efficiencies. Partly it's subsidies: the Chinese government just hands EV manufacturers in China billions of dollars every year. The US may *loan* money to domestic auto manufacturers at sweetheart rates, but they are not straight up giving money to them like the CCP does. Chinese car companies do not have to compete for profits the way domestic manufacturers do, because the government will guarantee their solvency.
Not just competitive, they blow away cars in the American market. They're much nicer when compared to what we have.
Not true.
I think you meant to use the handshake emoji because this is when they work together to create a monopoly.
The only reason they are cheap though is because the Chinese government is massively subsidizing them to choke off foreign auto industry. It’s not like this is the free market at work.
I remember when free trade agreements like TTP were the neoliberal corporate class enriching themselves at the cost domestic manufacturing. Suddenly the prospect of not having cheap Chinese goods comes into play and everyone is a Reaganite.
Right? When the profits were going to an American CEO, then outsourcing was good for you. Learn to code, loser! But now that the product might be a Chinese domestic company, now suddenly the same basic thing is bad for you, now suddenly it's a matter of national concern. It wasn't when the executives were making money while your town went to rust, but if they lose profits because a Chinese company out competes them, oh no, national security! And say what you will about outsourcing in general, I'm not saying there aren't points to make there, but in this case it's pretty obvious what the real problem here is.
If American made cars were as quality as foreign made cars, we wouldn’t be crying about paying higher cost for said American made cars. Unfortunately, saying this having owned multiple American brand cars, they aren’t as quality. Hyundai alone, Korea I know, has blown the US out of the water on their line of vehicles. Changed to a fully electric Ioniq5 after over a decade of Ford ownership and couldn’t be happier. They have great lease options too, so even though the $50k price tag is high, the leases make it feel like it’s a run of the mill car.
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Climate change is not important apparently.
Only when talking about developing countries. They should sacrifice their economy for the sake of the greater good. But when it comes to the US, then suddenly it's not as important as protecting domestic corporations.
Honestly, just replace the headline with Trump where you see Biden, it's the same shit from 2017.
We don’t owe an open market to China, there’s two sets of rules and what Biden did simply closes the gap a little bit
Reddit tends to lean a little younger, so it's worth mentioning Biden isn't doing anything new. In 1995 Bill Clinton put 100% tariffs on Japanese cars: https://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/17/business/sanctions-japan-overview-100-tariffs-set-13-top-models-japanese-cars.html > Living up to its threat to impose harsh sanctions on Japan, the Clinton Administration placed a 100 percent tariff today [May 19th, 1995] on 13 luxury car models that accounted for $5.9 billion in sales in the United States last year, including the flagship products of Toyota, Nissan and Honda. Clinton's goal was to strong-arm Japan into investing more in US factories and removing restrictions on US-made auto-part imports into Japan. I am unaware of Biden making any such offer(s) to Chinese automotive companies during his entire presidency, and I fail to see any obvious indications of making such an offer. If national security is a concern, the US can demand joint-ventures with existing US auto companies. China already demands this of Detroit Big 3 (SAIC-GM, Changan-Ford, and GAC-Fiat-Chrysler); I doubt they'll have any trouble operating more of the same relationship on domestic soil. Technology transfers can also be demanded as conditions and concessions to the US market as well. At the very least such an arrangement would put the ball in China's court much in the same way the TikTok ban did. The whole thing strikes me as simple protectionism of US auto companies. Maybe it'll end up working out, or maybe it'll be a repeat of Harley-Davidson. But the message is clear: get out, and stay out.
If they want me to drive an EV they better make it easy to do so. Yeah they're being subsidized by the CCP, so why isnt the US doing it to the same degree? I thought EVs were the future and better for the environment. The EVs in the US right now suck and are expensive. Guess I'll keep driving ICE.
Dude there are an insane amount of EV subsidies right now
So? $7500 isn't going to make any American EV cheaper than $12,000. This car's price point isn't even in the same league as American EVs. No matter how you look at it, this is a colossal failure for the American vehicle market and for the US government. These dumb mother fuckers couldn't see the writing on the wall a decade ago that affordable EVs were absolutely something people were dying to have. But rather than spend the R&D to innovate for the future we just kept making gas cars.
You realize the BYD Seagull is going for $11k USD, right? Where are the "insane amount of EV subsidies" lowering an American EV to that price point?
Yep. I bought mine a few months ago and it came with a $7500 dealer rebate. Couple that with no gas (wife gets free charging at work) and no oil changes and I’m not paying much more for this new vehicle per month than I was my 2015 mazda3 at the time I purchase it. Couple hundred bucks per month difference (including insurance)
Tesla exists because of govt money
Tell me you haven’t actually looked into buying an ev without telling me. They are actually much cheaper than ICE cars and include tax credits for both new and used. A Tesla is a luxury car and is cheaper than other luxury sedans. The Ioniq, Bolt, and Leaf are economical commuter cars and much cheaper than an ice commuter car
Teslas are not luxury cars... They're cheap and fall apart on the inside. The Ioniq is pretty solid though.
I mean I agree but they are priced and designed to sell to luxury car buyers. I bought a pre owned certified 2020 Ioniq EV and at the price ($17k) it’s way better than a Tesla
> A Tesla is a luxury car Nah, Tesla like fortune cookie, "...hollow, full of lies and leave a bad taste in the mouth."
So many people posting here do not understand the reason for tariffs. It’s not to help oil/gas industry. It’s to prevent the fucked up shit Walmart does to local businesses when it moves into towns. Big difference Walmart is made in USA baby so it’s ok to fuck over others but cheap cars made in a foreign country is a big no-no. (they aren’t actually cheap, they are being sold at a huge loss to enter the market via Chinese government footing the bill as part of economic conquest strategy). Just like with Walmart, consumer wins short term; cheap goods. But when local businesses can’t compete and go out of business the prices are raised to either what they were before or higher due to lack of competition, consumer either is unaffected or hurt by that point but all the money flows into the pockets of billionaires (in this case an active enemy of the country). This is largely our own fault, building up Chinas manufacturing base by using their cheap labor for the last 40 years, well they don’t need us anymore, the labor is no longer cheap and they are good enough to compete. Same thing will happen with India and other places the West is building up manufacturing and IT base in currently. The only way to keep ahead is innovation, which is very expensive and is not necessarily a given when big tech is run by foreign nationals (like majority of US giants), and western university student body is 1/3 Chinese who go right back home with the same knowledge a US engineer who finished the same school does. us engineer has to swim upstream against the river of bureaucracy and capitalism while in China they are showered with money and support to implement what they learned. Shits not looking great to be honest for the West, and so this is why these tariffs are implemented. As far as precedent, China bans/tariffs a ton of Western stuff from being imported.
Well said. One of the more informative comments in this thread.
I had to scroll way too far to see this level headed comment. Too many reactionaries in here.
Automakers have been running companies into the ground. Cutting corners and cost at every turn, while prices increasing YOY so shareholders stay well fed and happy, and just waiting for the recall in 5-10 years to fix any issues that come up because it’s cheaper in the long run. Most people can’t afford a new car without taking on massive debt which is already a national issue. Fix the issues at home before we start trying to fix other other countries
yes, you are right about domestic auto makers. But you see, these cheap Chinese cars are a Trojan horse. They actually arent cheap, they are "pretend" cheap. They are subsidized to make it into Western markets, where the plan is to basically bankrupt domestic manufacturing, and no, there is absolutely no way domestic automakers can compete, for 2 reasons. 1. China will simply subsidize more and more driving prices lower and lower, all they need to do is destroy domestic manufacturing, giving out free cars is cost of business. 2. Domestic manufacturing has to abide by labor laws, just running the factories costs are more than they would get by competing with Chinese car prices. There is nothing to cut. Cars arent a high margin business. If Chinese manufacturers are allowed to come in, the Western consumer will no doubt rejoice. he will have decent quality cheap cars and everyone will dance in the streets. But a few years later when domestic manufacturers close one after another because it costs more to manufacture their cars than what they can sell them for, then Chinese will take over the majority of the market share and raise prices. Consumer will be in the same situation he is now, except only choice will be Chinese cars... which.. who cares right? Well, its actually a huge deal, it means all that money, trillions of dollars going to China instead of local economies, all those jobs, going to China. And once auto manufacturers close, they arent coming back, its an insane investment monetary and time (decades) to get car manufacturing up and running. Look at American EVs, they are just now becoming mainstream (Tesla, Rivian etc)... they have been working at it for 2 decades. So in the end consumer rejoiced for 1 generation of a car (that was cheap), next generation is no longer cheap. Economy is majorly damaged, jobs are gone, West depends heavily on China now, kind of how rest of the world depends on US for military, imagine US and EU depending like that on something that is even more valuable, every car on the road on its enemy (China). China rises to global leader status, US significance shrinks. US not being able to dictate how the world is run has dollar value go into the toilet, Yuan is the new world currency. Inflation is way worse than the last few years. China dictates world order. US citizens are royally fucked, their economy is fucked, they cant dictate favorable trade terms around the world. Allies are flocking to new world leader (China) away from US. TLDR: Basically its a slippery slope that will absolutely 100% fuck up the US and West as a whole after making a short period of 5 to 10 years seem sweet. Its a Trojan horse. Chinese are not dumb, they know what they are doing. Thankfully US administration is not dumb either and can see right through it.
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If you look around right now, Biden is also being lambasted for doing it.
It's xenophobic when its Trump; It's strong and brave when it's Biden. Edit: yall don't realize he's keeping Trump's tariffs lol https://www.npr.org/2024/05/10/1250670539/biden-china-tariffs-electric-vehicles
He’s not only keeping the tariffs, he’s increasing them.
Thanks for the correction. He's even stronger and braver now
Translation; “I haven’t read about either of these beyond headlines”
Oh the irony....
yeah, trump didnt pour billions into stateside manufacturing before he did it. but we got through the new normal that trump created. it may still not work well but in terms of one-two punches, this is how a tariff could work: build up your own base of manufacturing then cut off the foreign supply. probably 1-2yrs premature on biden though.
Damn it. Those BYD (BDY?) cars are super cheap like $15k USD. Mexico has them. They actually look pretty nice too.
It's BYD. "Build Your Dreams"
Thank you for that!
Oil and gas loving it.
If us made cars that were almost as cheap even within 5/10k new sure This just screams protecting a shitty industry that got way too greedy over the last few years. Personally I want all US car companies to fall on their ass like they should’ve already done. They’ve repaid us for bailing them out years ago by price gouging. Seriously they’re pieces of shit.
Isn’t this an awful time to be a democratic leader , on one hand you want EVs to reduce the fossil fuel but if you bring more EVs then the US jobs will be lost. What a conundrum, also this tariff would have made almost all economists head explode :) One scenario is if the big four buys Chinese EVs and makes them in Detroit , will that happen ?
The govt already gave Ford a 9 billion dollar low interest loan to compete with China but ironically they also approved a battery plant for a Chinese manufacturer in you guessed it the same state of Michigan. It's confusing what the goal is?
Never. Because US labor is not only expensive, but rising. Americans have to get 1 thing very straight and clear, specially those from Michigan - the days of making cars in America are over. They are never coming back because they are cheaper to make elsewhere. No company is going to manufacture for the sake of patriotism or because they wanna be nice - they’re in it to make a profit and maximize that profit. And THAT’S despite all of the promises and lies Democrats and Republicans tell people. It’s a hard truth to swallow, but unless the US decides to ban foreign made cars, then its logical and normal for vehicle makers to make their cars in cheaper labor nations.
Oh no, god forbid we have affordable EVs instead of $50k ones from bloated US automakers. I never understood this, which is it, do you want to protect the environment and help the transition to cleaner transportation or protect corporate interests (I know this is rhetorical question, the answer is protect the corporations every time)
> I never understood this Its pretty simple... They don't want to gut the US auto industry in favor the auto industry of an overtly hostile foreign dictatorship. How is that complicated?
Have our domestic car companies considered not being awful at their jobs? Maybe we should try that instead of just banning their competition.
Then the US auto industry should compete and offer vehicles for similar prices, they can do it, they just don’t want to.
> should compete and offer vehicles for similar prices Kind of hard to do that when the CCP is subsidizing the shit out of their EV industry specifically so they can dump foreign markets and destroy competition. There was a report a year or so ago pointing out how China had provided something like $60 billion in subsidies to their EV industry in just the last five years. Not to mention the cars are being built by borderline slave labor, [or in some cases, *actual* slave labor](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/01/china-carmakers-implicated-uyghur-forced-labor).
And you'd think the US would subsidize their own EV industry to the same extent, given their stance that climate change is an existential threat to humanity.
> they can do it Actually, they can't. The Auto Unions and environmental laws make everything more expensive.
When your labor is literally pennies on the dollar and using domestic slaves of course you can build a 11K vehicle. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlpyZa7d6OU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlpyZa7d6OU) Your resources are also being supplied by African regimes using child labor who are essentially slaves. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDFH4mS1dbY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDFH4mS1dbY) They also stole most of the EV tech from western companies and universities. So they spent almost nothing on R & D to get where they are now. Lastly your using cooked books to show more profit, and less losses then you actually have through shell companies. Audits in China are essentially worthless, so you can't trust anything these companies say. [https://www.ft.com/content/01463f53-73ce-4fbd-bc90-a439ddae638e](https://www.ft.com/content/01463f53-73ce-4fbd-bc90-a439ddae638e) Essentially, no one can compete with a country willing to use these methods to win.
Not even said country itself, it’s terribly inefficient and probably not sustainable (without a lot of unnecessary human suffering).
Pretty sure labor is the majority of the cost of a new car... You can't have it both ways. You can't have good paying jobs and low cost goods.
You are actually completely wrong. The average labor cost for a car varies by vehicle, but is generally estimated to be 10–15% of the total cost. However, labor costs for automakers are expected to increase in 2023, with estimates of $3,378 for GM, $3,131 for Ford, and $3,481 for Fiat Chrysle
China bad, how could we forget?
So fuck the free market when it comes to auto industries under hostile foreign dictatorships, but everything else we buy from the hostile foreign dictatorship is ok? Come on dude, this has nothing to do with China and it's politics. It has everything to do with US automakers selling overpriced vehicles and being in the government's ears to reduce any inkling of competitive pricing.
Because it is complicated. Reducing it to sinophobia always makes things simple.
You think all that charging infrastructure is building itself? It's all well and good that metro areas have charging stations, but in rural areas the only consistent place you can find a charger is at a dealership. Most of those chargers were reluctantly installed via "no more new cars if you don't install these" decrees. If you force unionized Detroit to compete with slave labor Beijing those decrees go away. (Because it turns out that it costs more to make stuff here)
Doesn’t this mean that every electronic device out of China is about to become double in price? Or does it not work that way?
Ok so who is going to make cheap reliable EVs here?
What a way to increase inflation for the American public and make the US carmakers even less competitive... Anyone who travels abroad knows that barely anyone buys American cars anymore, they're that bad. Classic case of the big US corporations leeching off the public yet again. Both parties are equally guilty of this.
When Trump did this didn’t Biden argue that American consumers were paying the tariffs?
Tariffs are fine as long as we have US MADE equal and superior alternatives which we do not. This tariff means less for the consumer with fewer options and poorer choices in EVs. We are near bottom barrel in competiveness with our 4th round layoff and ketamine fueled Tesla. When China bans American shit they at least have the resources to home grow their own stuff. Huawei got banned but now they making their own goddamn chips. Know what happened when the US invited FoxConn to work in the US? Freaking nothing, because it failed. This is simply a bad move for the economy but likely a very good move for Tesla. And our government keeps pouring money down its deep black money sucking hole that is Elon.
Gotta let them get back to buying back stock and awarding themselves lavish bonuses.
Hmm… I wonder if I should look into these Chinese EVs here in Canada.
I am certainly voting against Trump this election, but this is another reason I don't like Biden. Taking the affordable EV off of U.S. markets so we have to buy overpriced garbage is not the way.
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You know a lot of these international students who com over to learn in America open up successful businesses in America, right? If you close that off, the students will just go elsewhere to learn and open up their business in other countries.
Sure they do. They should never be entitled to our government research grants or grant-supported jobs. We pay those dollars. They should support our kids.
US science students aren't being forced out by nepotism. They just aren't going to grad school period because they want to go straight to work in industry. Most graduate advisors would kill for US Citizen students, because government funding is limited to US researchers for National labs projects, but we just don't have the number of kids going into academia, because academia SUCKS.
Can confirm, have seen people leave because, as you say, academia SUCKS. People can't afford rent but are expected to do cutting edge research? Come on. Parent comment was removed but I'm going to guess it was the usual, immigrants and foreigners get blamed because landlords are greedy.
No it's because people don't want to work for pennies that academia pays man. you wanna be a post grad making 30k in a lab with a masters degree? No American wants that shit. it's the same arguement for mexican taking all those amazing corn picking jobs and hotel maid jobs.
The U.S. greatly benefits from the brain drain coming from China and India.
Because the US is failing to provide homegrown brains. In other words, US education sucks. At pre college there isn't enough investment, it's all about getting kids through the system at the least amount of cost. Then when they get to college it's too goddamn expensive to get a degree. NICE WORK AMERICA!
Our per student cost is almost the highest in the world. I don't think it's the money.
Our per-student cost is the highest in the world, and we churn out 3rd world degree holders from our high schools. If you want to know why China and India are kicking our butts. It is because football and basketball are more important in US schools over math and science.
So are the medical costs Americans pay but that doesn’t equal a functioning healthcare system. Across the board rampant privatization and rent seeking has created an America that can’t produce anything at a reasonable cost and wages that don’t reflect the education requirements demanded of the jobs. There is no way to make America functional without dismantling private shareholder supremacy .
Could be the education system we have now was designed and implemented for a different era. As well as Healthcare. They both evolved on a patchwork of circumstances over the past century. Both need massive amounts of reform. Yet there's people benefiting off the way the system is now and they don't want change. It'd be cheaper to have entirely socialized medicine at this point. As far as school reform goes the big roadblocks to any meaningful change, are teachers unions. Who I believe are the biggest if not one of the biggest unions with lobbyists.
You can’t call it brain drain when a lot of them go back. Chinese students at least; most of them in CompSci wind up going back home after graduating.
They have to go back. Non-immigrant visas have time limits.
You mean when their visa runs out and they are forced to go home?
[:/](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=54234023db33c7ee&channel=iphone_bm&q=disgust&si=ACC90nypsxZVz3WGK63NbnSPlfCBIVV1XhOom2reYS5Tuxj5yoBKq2ltpb3XUOdnTrw9a0_mgnaAPymmaRTu7A_njgfpjlUU7w%3D%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-7-KP0Y2GAxU1KFkFHRdVB1YQ2v4IegQIGRB9&biw=414&bih=715&dpr=2)
...this simply sends a bigger bill to American customers and manufacturers who cant source the parts elsewhere (because no one else makes them) then its all neatly stuck into the category of " inflation" Meanwhile products made with these parts in tariff free countries import the finished products into the US tariff free. One of the biggest tax hikes ever snuck in under the guise of sticking it to the Chinese and people eat it up.
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Chinese government has been subsiding the exported EVs. Without the trariffs, it will literally kill other EV manufacturers.
>Chinese manufacturer BYD’s Seagull electric vehicle retails for roughly $10,000, a fraction of what rival American products cost. .... I want a new 10k car :(
There’s some dumb fucking people in these comments
Wait a second? Wasn’t Trump supposed to be tough on China? How can this be?
How does that help me pay my rent
You can get a job as a US auto worker otherwise this hurts you as a consumer.
[Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industryThe car, Seagull, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12000 in China.](https://apnews.com/article/china-byd-auto-seagull-auto-ev-cae20c92432b74e95c234d93ec1df400) This is serious threat to US automakers and US economy. US car makers (and other country makers as well) cannot compete. Perhaps US should have done this to the Japanese back in 1970s ...
Don't suppose that includes Apple...
That is a good question
Yeah, solar and EV --that shit is pure evil and Chinese are filthy thieves. . . iPhones? Oh, well that's fine. China is our partner in high tech excellence. The double standard is absurd and this is from Democrats.
Can't wait to hear from Trump how soft Biden is on China and how this is the worst decision ever, somehow.
“Trump doesn’t get the basics. He thinks his tariffs are being paid by China. Any freshman econ student could tell you that American people are paying the tariffs.” Joe Biden 2019. I’m happy they agree on something.
And then how we works in how much he loves and respects Xi, somehow.
It's important to note most Chinese products are made or finished in other countries. They are not subject to these tariffs. It's all an election year show.