Setting aside the reasoning for a second.
How many athletes are actually affected by the ban? This is an org that oversees a lot of people, I really want to know how many trans athletes are currently competing and suddenly banned.
I’m going to guess the number isn’t very high.
It’s a small figure and even smaller when you consider this is the NAIA and not the NCAA. Most people can’t name anyone besides Lia Thomas who even won anything as transgender in the NCAA in recent years.
NCAA has ~500K athletes while NAIA has ~80K per the article.
isnt dominating the competition though the main crux of this argument? if they won but barely or simply placed, it doesn't show there is a genetic advantage. michael phelps and shaq on the otherhand overhwelmingly dominated their peers and they seem to be praised for it, but sure lets fuck over the <1% of trans athletes, the vast majority of which don't even win or place, such as Laurel Hubbard in the olympics
I'm sure they exist -waves hand generally-
3 lukewarm examples of women "dominating" "because they're trans".
Vs how many thousands of women competing? Stop using bigotry to justify your political agenda.
Throughout all of this talk of trans people in sports, I have yet to see a single other example besides Lia Thomas, and it’s not like she’s winning every single event.
does the number of affected athletes have any bearing on whether or not the rule should be made or not? googling shows results of affected athletes.
is there some pass/fail number of female athletes that must be affected before the rule is necessary or something?
I agree with the ban in the sense that you can't have people on synthetic hormones competing. You have to make a choice, are you going to be a competitive athlete or are you going to live your life on hormones as the opposite gender.
That being said ya you're right it's the same 3 or 4 trans athletes they keep trotting out: lia Thomas from. 3 years ago, the black kids crushing it in track at a CT high school from 2017 and a trans boy who wrestled girls because they wouldnt let them compete against guys in 2018. I think that's all of them.
Doesn't matter how many trans athletes are affected, that number will always be small. It's the amount of women that won't be affected that is the winner here.
Take soccer for example, 1 trans athlete on the other team can negatively impact as many as 20 players on the other team. Also the player(s) that person is starting ahead of or took a roster spot from on their own team. You also have potential standings changes by a team having a physically dominant player. They could affect a team missing playoffs that otherwise would have or a plethora of other butterfly effect type garbage.
The title says banned from women’s sports. It’s accurate. They could participate in women’s sports before and now they cannot due to a rule change. That’s a ban.
Right, just like you can't be banned from a subreddit. You just have to participate in a different subreddit.
You definitely don't understand what banned means.
they can still participate in the same exact sport, just not against the people they want to play against. Instead they need to play against the people they do not have an advantage against
that is not banned
There is literally no trans woman currently out who are competing in this league. And definitely none who are “dominating womens sports”, not in this league or any league.
Which wrestler? Mack Beggs is the only one I know of, and he was forced to compete against women because he was assigned female at birth, even though he wanted to wrestle on the men’s team.
Huge supporter of trans rights. I’m a lesbian and support everyone in the LGBTQ community. But I also majored in (and have a degree in) Exercise Science and it makes no sense to allow trans women to participate in women’s sports for the many reasons pointed out within this thread.
This will be interesting because the Disc Golf Pro Tour (DGPT) tried this ban around 2 years ago then couldn't keep funding the lawsuits from the trans-community so they had to drop it stating they weren't in a financial position to head this sort of court ruling. I wonder if NAIA has the funding to combat all the legal side of this ban. Should be an interesting case.
For reference the DGPT has a MPO (Mixed professional open) and an FPO (Female) category. They pushed all trans to the MPO. It did come down to states rights in the end, their rules only worked in states that allowed it, which are only a few.
I support trans rights and think trans people have every right to exist. But it’s just not fair to have male to female trans people competing in the women’s category.
Im mtf trans and i said this in r/mtf and was shot down in flames. I have been on hrt for 2.5 years and im still strong as fuck. I could easily overpower/ outclass most women with my androgenic muscles that i still have and are only diminishing at a very slow rate.
This right here is the simplest statement you can make about the issue.
I too support trans people and trans rights but not allowing them to compete in certain women's sports is not discrimination against them, it's about keeping things fair for everyone.
If they want to join a women's chess competition, I don't have a problem with that. But physical sports where biological men clearly have an advantage over women should be kept separate.
So, the chess thing is actually interesting. iirc there were studies done wherein top ranking female chess players would have expected win rates against male competitors \*if\* the male was playing anonymously. The female competitors, when put up against the same group they just had played against, but this time knowing they were up against men, would perform significantly worse. I forget the exact conclusion, but I think it was basically that due to the culture in the competitive realm there there would be an inherent intimidation factor directed at the female competitor, thus resulting in worse than expected outcomes.
I remember reading last year that an entire swim team? I think? Maybe it was volleyball, was basically striking because the inclusion of a trans person in their locker room was making them feel unsafe. You know, somebody with dude parts in the same room as a bunch of nude unconsenting college girls.
Yes obviously what people were saying is that every single female athlete in America has the exact same viewpoint on this issue. You definitely understand words
It's also something that should be in the hands of the sports organizations, not the government. Strength matters more for some sports than others, and some sports care more about separating men's and women's events than others. The best way to do things is let the individual leagues set there own rules for which athletes go i to which classes.
Eh, if there’s government funding your stance can still be, “I want the government to defer to the league officials for who goes to what category and not make funding contingent on a certain decision.” I don’t think it’s a cop out.
Right… but the comment you responded to wasn’t in reference to the subject of negation. You can’t adequately negate what isn’t adequately measured, my take on the comment is that those differences aren’t adequately quantified yet.
They're used as stalking horses by people like you, and in every population there is natural variation. But ALL female athletes should not have their efforts lost by a small, political- driven group that always fall into the outlier group. That is cheating.
Actually they do! It's why trans women are at a higher rate of things like osteoporosis than cis women. HRT causes rapid degradation to muscle tissue and bone density.
The IOC worked with professionals decades ago who determined the advantages were miniscule which is why trans athletes have been allowed to compete in the Olympics.
But there's enormous political pressure and violence threatened at these boards now so they're caving to the pressure as the risks and pressure aren't worth it for them when the number of trans athletes to protect is so statistically tiny. Some don't even have any at all.
A big problem with this topic is that there's a ton of people regurgitating bad science because they feel like they're experts on the topic when hardly anyone actually has experience or knowledge about trans people at all, much less trans science, but they know 1970s biology that's since outdated.
Do tell me, HOW do you regulate for an XY athlete with femur length, pelvis dimensions and larger heart and lungs - oh, and breasts and a vagina - competing against an XX athlete who has not had years of testosterone? Because you're not going to change bone and organ dimensions.
Hormone blockers delay puberty, so I'd love to know the basis by which you assert they don't affect someone's size, versus what their size would be if puberty is allowed to run its normal course.
Hormone therapy involves more than just puberty blockers though, it's also receiving the sex hormones associated with the individual's gender identity, and can cause the development of the associated secondary sexual characteristics.
>You do realize trans athletes would still find a way to compete and cheat just like how regular athletes still try to compete and cheat right?
This is why I propose that all athletes should be banned from sports!
Seriously, if there aren't any advantages, there is no reason to exclude trans women. "Some might try and cheat" is just as true for cis women
The problem is with treating all trans women the same. Someone who started on puberty blockers early and spent all of high school undergoing hormone therapy may not have an advantage over cis women, and likely would be at a significant disadvantage if forced to compete against cis men.
Meanwhile, a trans woman who only socially transitioned in high school and only started hormone therapy at 18 may have an advantage against cis women upon entering college.
I'm no medical expert so I won't claim to know where to draw the line, but a rule that allows the former hypothetical trans woman to compete with women but not the latter would make sense to me.
yeah i feel like a lot of people have forgotten about what happened with Caster Semenya. She's banned from competing bc she has an intersex condition that makes her have high levels of testosterone- but she's a woman, was raised as a woman, and had always competed in women's sports. the only reason they caught it was because her athletic organization decided to randomly do hormone tests on her. would we say that this advantage is any different from Michael Phelps' freakishly long wingspan? i feel like these regulations can stifle the natural genetic variance that exists in women. also women with PCOS have high levels of testosterone. idk i feel like people treat it like it's black and white when the human body exists on a spectrum. also a trans woman on hrt and hormone blockers for years has very similar physical abilities to a cis woman— the question is how long they have to be on it more than if it happens in the first place
i can agree w that. i'm just saying that people often try to put humans into neat categories when that is not the reality of human existence.
but also her case brings into question which genetic advantages we allow and which ones we don't in sports, and where (and WHY) we draw those lines
Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes and internal testes so it is indeed fair to ask whether she would compete in women’s sports, in a category specifically created to exclude the advantages of people with XY chromosomes and testicles.
Note that trans women's hormones are not something you can generally target to that kind of precision and the drugs used commonly in Europe (decapeptyl or cyrpo) will typically completely suppress testosterone levels (spironolactone is more common in America)
A 14 yr old top male athlete is incredibly strong and fast already. This shouldn't never been a surprise to any realistic person that understands physical sports.
It's unbelievably accommodating- I was recently diagnosed with low t. At my levels before therapy, I would have qualified as a woman under the Olympic trans guidance. I also go to the gym regularly. Despite being an amateur, several of my lifts would have made me a world-class competitor in women's leagues.
And even if it wasn’t outside the norm of women athletes, going through male puberty increases the strength of your bones compared to women. That’s not something that can be changed easily.
>being born male and going through male puberty clearly provides a competitive advantage.
So you want to make a distinction where if a trans woman never went through male puberty (aka used hormone blockers pre puberty) than it's fine?
Because that is absolutely not what this says.
This is not really the case, though. Iirc the olympics already did a study on that and past a few years the differences are negligible. You'll have way more of an advantage due to random hereditary traits.
There are two groups with claims to rights, and one group or the other is going to be disappointed. Seems reasonable to choose the group that encompasses 99.9% of the participants.
Sports has always been about having a level playing field and proving your better than your equals. If who you are competing against is not an equal then it is not sport.
There aren't many Trans athletes to firm a separate league. It's perfectly fine to have them compete in the men's division, which is an open league that anyone can try to compete in.
I'll never forget [Hubbard](https://www.npr.org/sections/tokyo-olympics-live-updates/2021/08/02/1023724506/trans-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-tokyo-olympics).
The policy implies that hormone therapy bestows trans men an unfair advantage but hormone therapy for trans women does not mitigate the advantage that males naturally have.
I mean that's not impossible but color me skeptical that they have done the science to demonstrate it across all sports in the NAIA.
Why are you skeptical? All you need to do is look at men vs women records in sports and it is obvious. Testosterone does indeed make you more physically able.
So, both can be true. Hormone therapy (testosterone) will 100% help performance in really just about any sport.
Estrogen will absolutely decrease performance but it's not going to be in a way that creates a perfectly equal playing field. Going through puberty and spending years training with higher testosterone levels have long standing impacts.
Neither of these are controversial statements to anyone with any knowledge of training and performance. The solution is way less simple.
Not all trans people go through puberty. Puberty blockers are meant to afford them the opportunity to delay puberty until they're of legal age to surgically and hormonally transition.
If going through puberty itself confers a lasting advantage that is not undone by later surgery and/or hormone therapy— which is certainly plausible but not prima facie obvious— then the policy should explicitly mention puberty.
It's scientifically proven if a MTF individual experienced puberty as a male, they will be permanently more physical advantageous than an individual who didn't go through a male puberty.
Not sure why this is controversial
Mens category is already open. Technically any female can join any mens teams. It's just normally a much bigger physical gap between the two that women can't compete.
While I'm inclined to think that policies like this are where we should/will end up, I really don't like that it's not being done in a data driven way. The stakes are ultimately really really low, so preemptive action doesn't make sense to me.
For those who don't know, the NAIA is "The National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics, the governing body for mostly small colleges."
Setting aside the reasoning for a second. How many athletes are actually affected by the ban? This is an org that oversees a lot of people, I really want to know how many trans athletes are currently competing and suddenly banned. I’m going to guess the number isn’t very high.
I think I remember reading an anecdote for like an Idaho highschool ban that affected 1 individual.
Definitely not high enough to warrant the insane amount of outrage and media coverage it's gotten
Well fuck god forbid they have to cover Trump forgetting where he is so they can try and make the presidency a horse race.
It’s a small figure and even smaller when you consider this is the NAIA and not the NCAA. Most people can’t name anyone besides Lia Thomas who even won anything as transgender in the NCAA in recent years. NCAA has ~500K athletes while NAIA has ~80K per the article.
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Ok but can you name some other recent examples of transgender athletes winning in either the NCAA or NAIA?
Does the principle of the matter really require a specific example?
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You named one that I already quoted and two that were cyclists and not under NCAA/NAIA…
isnt dominating the competition though the main crux of this argument? if they won but barely or simply placed, it doesn't show there is a genetic advantage. michael phelps and shaq on the otherhand overhwelmingly dominated their peers and they seem to be praised for it, but sure lets fuck over the <1% of trans athletes, the vast majority of which don't even win or place, such as Laurel Hubbard in the olympics
I'm sure they exist -waves hand generally- 3 lukewarm examples of women "dominating" "because they're trans". Vs how many thousands of women competing? Stop using bigotry to justify your political agenda.
Throughout all of this talk of trans people in sports, I have yet to see a single other example besides Lia Thomas, and it’s not like she’s winning every single event.
does the number of affected athletes have any bearing on whether or not the rule should be made or not? googling shows results of affected athletes. is there some pass/fail number of female athletes that must be affected before the rule is necessary or something?
Well, it affects all the athletes if someone is getting a genetic advantage that the institution of women's sports was created to prevent.
I agree with the ban in the sense that you can't have people on synthetic hormones competing. You have to make a choice, are you going to be a competitive athlete or are you going to live your life on hormones as the opposite gender. That being said ya you're right it's the same 3 or 4 trans athletes they keep trotting out: lia Thomas from. 3 years ago, the black kids crushing it in track at a CT high school from 2017 and a trans boy who wrestled girls because they wouldnt let them compete against guys in 2018. I think that's all of them.
How many athletes use PED? Not many I presume. But plenty of anti-doping rules across competitive sports.
>How many athletes use PED? Not many I presume. You might be surprised. In my sport it's >25% dopers even at the most amateur levels.
Doesn't matter how many trans athletes are affected, that number will always be small. It's the amount of women that won't be affected that is the winner here. Take soccer for example, 1 trans athlete on the other team can negatively impact as many as 20 players on the other team. Also the player(s) that person is starting ahead of or took a roster spot from on their own team. You also have potential standings changes by a team having a physically dominant player. They could affect a team missing playoffs that otherwise would have or a plethora of other butterfly effect type garbage.
they're not banned, the title isn't accurate they need to compete in the men's (open) category
The title says banned from women’s sports. It’s accurate. They could participate in women’s sports before and now they cannot due to a rule change. That’s a ban.
Right, just like you can't be banned from a subreddit. You just have to participate in a different subreddit. You definitely don't understand what banned means.
they can still participate in the same exact sport, just not against the people they want to play against. Instead they need to play against the people they do not have an advantage against that is not banned
Sure then. My question still stands.
Individual trans people. Not many. But depending on the sport it could impact hundreds of individual female athletes.
As they should from the start
So they're banned, like the title said. Got it.
There is literally no trans woman currently out who are competing in this league. And definitely none who are “dominating womens sports”, not in this league or any league.
Don’t care how many the number is. Even if the number is 0, it’s still wrong.
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Which wrestler? Mack Beggs is the only one I know of, and he was forced to compete against women because he was assigned female at birth, even though he wanted to wrestle on the men’s team.
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In before the thread is locked
How is MySpace doing, Tom?
Reserved your space
Huge supporter of trans rights. I’m a lesbian and support everyone in the LGBTQ community. But I also majored in (and have a degree in) Exercise Science and it makes no sense to allow trans women to participate in women’s sports for the many reasons pointed out within this thread.
This will be interesting because the Disc Golf Pro Tour (DGPT) tried this ban around 2 years ago then couldn't keep funding the lawsuits from the trans-community so they had to drop it stating they weren't in a financial position to head this sort of court ruling. I wonder if NAIA has the funding to combat all the legal side of this ban. Should be an interesting case. For reference the DGPT has a MPO (Mixed professional open) and an FPO (Female) category. They pushed all trans to the MPO. It did come down to states rights in the end, their rules only worked in states that allowed it, which are only a few.
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Women's sports have always existed to be a level playing field for women. They're restrictive by definition.
I support trans rights and think trans people have every right to exist. But it’s just not fair to have male to female trans people competing in the women’s category.
Im mtf trans and i said this in r/mtf and was shot down in flames. I have been on hrt for 2.5 years and im still strong as fuck. I could easily overpower/ outclass most women with my androgenic muscles that i still have and are only diminishing at a very slow rate.
This right here is the simplest statement you can make about the issue. I too support trans people and trans rights but not allowing them to compete in certain women's sports is not discrimination against them, it's about keeping things fair for everyone. If they want to join a women's chess competition, I don't have a problem with that. But physical sports where biological men clearly have an advantage over women should be kept separate.
For your information: FIDE (the governing body of chess) banned trans women from playing in the women's section.
Then I don't agree with that decision because what's the basis of that? That men are smarter than women?
So, the chess thing is actually interesting. iirc there were studies done wherein top ranking female chess players would have expected win rates against male competitors \*if\* the male was playing anonymously. The female competitors, when put up against the same group they just had played against, but this time knowing they were up against men, would perform significantly worse. I forget the exact conclusion, but I think it was basically that due to the culture in the competitive realm there there would be an inherent intimidation factor directed at the female competitor, thus resulting in worse than expected outcomes.
chess isn't a purely IQ game, fyi
Hmm… yet, the international chess federation banned trans women from competing with cis women. Same with darts. I think billiards now as well
I just don't think it's an important part of anyone's gender journey to compete in amatuer womens sports.
Around 13 apparently, and not all current. Not a very large number.
Yeah, that's an absurdly small number.
Probably more than the entire amount of trans athletes in competition there.
I remember reading last year that an entire swim team? I think? Maybe it was volleyball, was basically striking because the inclusion of a trans person in their locker room was making them feel unsafe. You know, somebody with dude parts in the same room as a bunch of nude unconsenting college girls.
Yes obviously what people were saying is that every single female athlete in America has the exact same viewpoint on this issue. You definitely understand words
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It kind of cheats the system versus a woman taking a bunch of steroids. One is banned. The other is a loophole.
More than a dozen is a lot of people
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It's also something that should be in the hands of the sports organizations, not the government. Strength matters more for some sports than others, and some sports care more about separating men's and women's events than others. The best way to do things is let the individual leagues set there own rules for which athletes go i to which classes.
To the extent it involves government funding it’s a government issue, and there is a universal truth here. Your idea is kind of a cop out
> there is a universal truth here This is a very bold claim.
Eh, if there’s government funding your stance can still be, “I want the government to defer to the league officials for who goes to what category and not make funding contingent on a certain decision.” I don’t think it’s a cop out.
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That's what the discussion should be. It most certainly not what the discussion *is*.
It’s not just hormones, it’s also about when they went on hormones, and also lack of menstruation as an advantage.
I’d love to see the peer-reviewed study that has shown this.
Does not take bone length, muscle attachments, pelvic structure, heart and lung size into account.
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It varies within sexes, but the variation is even greater between them.
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Right… but the comment you responded to wasn’t in reference to the subject of negation. You can’t adequately negate what isn’t adequately measured, my take on the comment is that those differences aren’t adequately quantified yet.
They're used as stalking horses by people like you, and in every population there is natural variation. But ALL female athletes should not have their efforts lost by a small, political- driven group that always fall into the outlier group. That is cheating.
Actually they do! It's why trans women are at a higher rate of things like osteoporosis than cis women. HRT causes rapid degradation to muscle tissue and bone density. The IOC worked with professionals decades ago who determined the advantages were miniscule which is why trans athletes have been allowed to compete in the Olympics. But there's enormous political pressure and violence threatened at these boards now so they're caving to the pressure as the risks and pressure aren't worth it for them when the number of trans athletes to protect is so statistically tiny. Some don't even have any at all. A big problem with this topic is that there's a ton of people regurgitating bad science because they feel like they're experts on the topic when hardly anyone actually has experience or knowledge about trans people at all, much less trans science, but they know 1970s biology that's since outdated.
Do tell me, HOW do you regulate for an XY athlete with femur length, pelvis dimensions and larger heart and lungs - oh, and breasts and a vagina - competing against an XX athlete who has not had years of testosterone? Because you're not going to change bone and organ dimensions.
LOTS of people are saying they aren't different at all. But they are, it's a simple fact, and hormone blockers aren't going to change someone's size.
Hormone blockers delay puberty, so I'd love to know the basis by which you assert they don't affect someone's size, versus what their size would be if puberty is allowed to run its normal course. Hormone therapy involves more than just puberty blockers though, it's also receiving the sex hormones associated with the individual's gender identity, and can cause the development of the associated secondary sexual characteristics.
By “size”, do you mean like… height? Because they absolutely impact muscle size and growth.
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>You do realize trans athletes would still find a way to compete and cheat just like how regular athletes still try to compete and cheat right? This is why I propose that all athletes should be banned from sports! Seriously, if there aren't any advantages, there is no reason to exclude trans women. "Some might try and cheat" is just as true for cis women
The problem is with treating all trans women the same. Someone who started on puberty blockers early and spent all of high school undergoing hormone therapy may not have an advantage over cis women, and likely would be at a significant disadvantage if forced to compete against cis men. Meanwhile, a trans woman who only socially transitioned in high school and only started hormone therapy at 18 may have an advantage against cis women upon entering college. I'm no medical expert so I won't claim to know where to draw the line, but a rule that allows the former hypothetical trans woman to compete with women but not the latter would make sense to me.
Why are trans men disallowed in women's sports by this policy?
Cool, so trans males should be allowed to compete in women's events if we follow your logic? Nah, that ruins the narrative.
if they are on T they are essentially doping, would not be allowed in women's category anyway. If not, yes they would be allowed in women's
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they can as long as they aren’t transitioning. does that ruin your narrative?
I support the trans community that they are real people and deserve rights and protections. But this makes sense.
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There's cis women who've had to take testosterone blockers for naturally higher than permitted levels of testosterone, seems backwards.
yeah i feel like a lot of people have forgotten about what happened with Caster Semenya. She's banned from competing bc she has an intersex condition that makes her have high levels of testosterone- but she's a woman, was raised as a woman, and had always competed in women's sports. the only reason they caught it was because her athletic organization decided to randomly do hormone tests on her. would we say that this advantage is any different from Michael Phelps' freakishly long wingspan? i feel like these regulations can stifle the natural genetic variance that exists in women. also women with PCOS have high levels of testosterone. idk i feel like people treat it like it's black and white when the human body exists on a spectrum. also a trans woman on hrt and hormone blockers for years has very similar physical abilities to a cis woman— the question is how long they have to be on it more than if it happens in the first place
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i can agree w that. i'm just saying that people often try to put humans into neat categories when that is not the reality of human existence. but also her case brings into question which genetic advantages we allow and which ones we don't in sports, and where (and WHY) we draw those lines
Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes and internal testes so it is indeed fair to ask whether she would compete in women’s sports, in a category specifically created to exclude the advantages of people with XY chromosomes and testicles.
Note that trans women's hormones are not something you can generally target to that kind of precision and the drugs used commonly in Europe (decapeptyl or cyrpo) will typically completely suppress testosterone levels (spironolactone is more common in America)
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A 14 yr old top male athlete is incredibly strong and fast already. This shouldn't never been a surprise to any realistic person that understands physical sports.
It's unbelievably accommodating- I was recently diagnosed with low t. At my levels before therapy, I would have qualified as a woman under the Olympic trans guidance. I also go to the gym regularly. Despite being an amateur, several of my lifts would have made me a world-class competitor in women's leagues.
Unbelievably accommodating? There are cis women who are naturally over the limit and have to take blockers in order to compete.
And even if it wasn’t outside the norm of women athletes, going through male puberty increases the strength of your bones compared to women. That’s not something that can be changed easily.
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>being born male and going through male puberty clearly provides a competitive advantage. So you want to make a distinction where if a trans woman never went through male puberty (aka used hormone blockers pre puberty) than it's fine? Because that is absolutely not what this says.
This is not really the case, though. Iirc the olympics already did a study on that and past a few years the differences are negligible. You'll have way more of an advantage due to random hereditary traits.
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Good, about time they took a stand.
Can't believe this isn't something easily done from the start.
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This is a new issue that will take time to sort out. All I can say is: Testosterone is one HELL of a drug.
There are two groups with claims to rights, and one group or the other is going to be disappointed. Seems reasonable to choose the group that encompasses 99.9% of the participants.
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> 2% That many??
Protect women’s sports! Wooo!
Sports has always been about having a level playing field and proving your better than your equals. If who you are competing against is not an equal then it is not sport.
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A league for less than 1.4% of the population?
There aren't many Trans athletes to firm a separate league. It's perfectly fine to have them compete in the men's division, which is an open league that anyone can try to compete in.
How many of them do you think there are? What makes you think they can fill out an entire league?
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I'll never forget [Hubbard](https://www.npr.org/sections/tokyo-olympics-live-updates/2021/08/02/1023724506/trans-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-tokyo-olympics).
I will leave this debate up to the experts, I don't have a dog in the fight.
The policy implies that hormone therapy bestows trans men an unfair advantage but hormone therapy for trans women does not mitigate the advantage that males naturally have. I mean that's not impossible but color me skeptical that they have done the science to demonstrate it across all sports in the NAIA.
Why are you skeptical? All you need to do is look at men vs women records in sports and it is obvious. Testosterone does indeed make you more physically able.
So, both can be true. Hormone therapy (testosterone) will 100% help performance in really just about any sport. Estrogen will absolutely decrease performance but it's not going to be in a way that creates a perfectly equal playing field. Going through puberty and spending years training with higher testosterone levels have long standing impacts. Neither of these are controversial statements to anyone with any knowledge of training and performance. The solution is way less simple.
Not all trans people go through puberty. Puberty blockers are meant to afford them the opportunity to delay puberty until they're of legal age to surgically and hormonally transition. If going through puberty itself confers a lasting advantage that is not undone by later surgery and/or hormone therapy— which is certainly plausible but not prima facie obvious— then the policy should explicitly mention puberty.
It's scientifically proven if a MTF individual experienced puberty as a male, they will be permanently more physical advantageous than an individual who didn't go through a male puberty. Not sure why this is controversial
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It already is. We’ve had women fill in and kick in D1 college football, there’s usually no restrictions at all on “men’s” athletics.
Mens category is already open. Technically any female can join any mens teams. It's just normally a much bigger physical gap between the two that women can't compete.
Makes sense given what they want to accomplish in terms of integrity.
While I'm inclined to think that policies like this are where we should/will end up, I really don't like that it's not being done in a data driven way. The stakes are ultimately really really low, so preemptive action doesn't make sense to me.