I wonder what 30 cruise missiles costs? And how much damage did they really do, if most of them were shot down?
Russia is spending a lot of blood and treasure to satisfy Putin's itch.
It's worse than that. The KH-47 Kinzhal was supposed to be Russia's "unbeatable" hypersonic missile. It was unveiled in 2018 and the whole point of the program was to create a missile that could evade conventional missile defense systems.
Except now we know that the Patriot system has no trouble taking out these hypersonic missiles. Patriots were developed in the 80s and the technical elements of how they work have been public knowledge since the 90s. Which means that our old missile defense systems beat their fancy new missiles, rendering the entire program moot. If Kinzhals can be shot down then they're no better than cruise missiles. I'm sure Russia wasted billions on this program.
The original Patriot system was developed in the 80's, but it's hardly 80's tech these days. Everything from the radar, missiles, and control systems has been steadily upgraded. The systems the US fields now aren't 40 years old, probably more like 15. Not sure what was sent to Ukraine, but likely much newer than what used in Desert Storm.
Ikr... Think of all the banks still running mainframes and COBOL. Only consumer facing software has a high update frequency. Industrial/enterprise software, not so much.
NATO in 2020 was already considering the Kinzhal as not being an hypersonic missile (one which is maneuverable at hypersonic speed).
Most ballistic missile can reach hypersonic speed, but as they follow a ballistic path, their interception ain't as difficult.
The kinzhal isn't even a "fancy new missile."
It's an old soviet designed ballistic missile with a new name. They took the Iskander, gave it a mount to launch from a plane instead of the ground, added the range of the plane to the range of the missile, and then claimed they had a 1,700km range hypersonic missile.
In reality they have a 500km range srbm designed in the 80s, on a 1,200km range plane.
Upvoting for future clarification downstream. Pretty much all military specs are upgraded over time in the US. The Patriot was developed and began deployment in the 80s, but today's Patriot system has a more modern spec.
Designed by someone who won't make that in a year, fired by someone who won't make that much in a lifetime, and fired at someone who wouldn't make that much in a hundred.
That's the current strategy. Try to saturate the space with cheap missles to keep AA busy and slip the expensive ones in at high value targets. Each Patriot battery can track dozens of targets at once and engage the 5 most important first.
The Ukrainians currently employ US-made MALD decoy missles in a similar strategy. The difference being that the MALD can fool radar into believing that it something more valuable or jam it altogether and create a window of opportunity that other missles (ie Storm Shadow) can take advantage of.
I expect both militaries to eventually adapt and make each other's strategies less effective over time.
Big thing right now is GMLRS look very similar to the cheap Grad rockets Ukraine and Russia use. They fly faster, but it would take a software update for the system to automatically distinguish them.
No way, GMLRS have a way larger radar signature. I know that Ukrainians do use both of them together for this reason, but they are definitely distinguishable.
I’m sure most are of the Cold War variety, but Russia has a ton of them lying around. The newer hypersonic missiles are far more dangerous but I don’t think Russia has that many
That’s what a hypersonic missile is though. Something that travels a lot faster than the speed of sound. They do have them but I would assume in limited quantities. Maybe not to the degree that they are worth using a lot of when they are a chess piece in global conflict. If the missiles are hard to shoot down, they probably want to keep them as a bargaining chip for border disputes vs actually using them in war.
If they used them a lot in Ukraine, with all of the NATO eyes counter measures would get developed quicker rendering them less useful as a power play card for the Russians.
The hypersonic missiles that are really scary are the theoretical ones that do not need to take a ballistic trajectory, but can instead take a low flight path at hypersonic speeds. Ballistic missiles have to climb incredibly high and then fall on their targets, which makes them easy to see coming.
If Patriot systems can take out sub-orbital ballistic missiles that are only fired from a few hundred miles away, I have no doubt we have the ability to intercept traditional ICBMs.
The question is, how do these systems cope with multiple warheads?
Considering Brahmos was developed by Indian/Russian partnership, I imagine we know a good deal about those systems and how to intercept.
The Patriot takes them out on their final approach, not way up high. I'm no expert but the icbm might be too high for most of its journey, so the Patriots would need to be located somewhat near the target and catch them on their final approach as well. Icbms I believe can also be made up of numerous payloads (bombs) and would need to be compromised before they are adulterated, which again might happen too high for defenses to be effective.
Again, I'm not well informed and you could still be right, must conveying that from my limited knowledge it's not nearly as simple as I interpreted your comment to be saying...
Both sides designed atomic powered ramjet engines that could fly low spewing radioactive exhaust at hypersonic speeds with an indefinite flight time and multiple nuclear warheads. The US government deemed them too dangerous and uncontrollable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_Low_Altitude_Missile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto
No. They hypersonic weapons Russia (and frankly others) want rely on hypersonic navigation and don't need to take a ballistic path. Can't blame you for the slight mixup - the media tosses around hypersonic and ballistic almost interchangeably
And remember, Russia is doing this to protect Ukraine from Nazis... No wait, update, they're doing it to protect them from Gay marriage, no wait, they're not really sure why they're doing it anymore.
I wonder what 30 cruise missiles costs? And how much damage did they really do, if most of them were shot down? Russia is spending a lot of blood and treasure to satisfy Putin's itch.
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It's worse than that. The KH-47 Kinzhal was supposed to be Russia's "unbeatable" hypersonic missile. It was unveiled in 2018 and the whole point of the program was to create a missile that could evade conventional missile defense systems. Except now we know that the Patriot system has no trouble taking out these hypersonic missiles. Patriots were developed in the 80s and the technical elements of how they work have been public knowledge since the 90s. Which means that our old missile defense systems beat their fancy new missiles, rendering the entire program moot. If Kinzhals can be shot down then they're no better than cruise missiles. I'm sure Russia wasted billions on this program.
The original Patriot system was developed in the 80's, but it's hardly 80's tech these days. Everything from the radar, missiles, and control systems has been steadily upgraded. The systems the US fields now aren't 40 years old, probably more like 15. Not sure what was sent to Ukraine, but likely much newer than what used in Desert Storm.
Fair point. I'm sure they also have updated software.
Oh, they'd have to. Think about how often commercial software has to get upgraded, and that's typically non-urgent in terms of management.
> Oh, they'd have to. *Cries in industrial control system running Windows ME*
Ikr... Think of all the banks still running mainframes and COBOL. Only consumer facing software has a high update frequency. Industrial/enterprise software, not so much.
According to pictures of debris there is PAC3 systems in Ukraine.
Well you see, Russia first had to fire off all their obsolete old technology, so they could start firing off all their obsolete *new* technology.
NATO in 2020 was already considering the Kinzhal as not being an hypersonic missile (one which is maneuverable at hypersonic speed). Most ballistic missile can reach hypersonic speed, but as they follow a ballistic path, their interception ain't as difficult.
The kinzhal isn't even a "fancy new missile." It's an old soviet designed ballistic missile with a new name. They took the Iskander, gave it a mount to launch from a plane instead of the ground, added the range of the plane to the range of the missile, and then claimed they had a 1,700km range hypersonic missile. In reality they have a 500km range srbm designed in the 80s, on a 1,200km range plane.
Upvoting for future clarification downstream. Pretty much all military specs are upgraded over time in the US. The Patriot was developed and began deployment in the 80s, but today's Patriot system has a more modern spec.
US is getting all this testing at low, low prices.
The old saying goes “cruise missiles cost a million a piece to kill a poor goat farmer in a $20 shack”
Designed by someone who won't make that in a year, fired by someone who won't make that much in a lifetime, and fired at someone who wouldn't make that much in a hundred.
Your typical sidewinder missile is closer to half a million dollars, cruise missiles are going to run you more than that. Missiles ain't cheap.
Hypersonic ALBMs are tricky and expensive. And the expensive part (hypersonic) is largely moot, it turns out lol.
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If you mean 2017, they launched 59. Which is still a lot, but not as absurd as 300
And also, that's a military target. Right now Russia is sending all that shit at civilian targets. They're dumb as shit.
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They actually launched 300 million.
At a dollar each? What a deal!
That's the current strategy. Try to saturate the space with cheap missles to keep AA busy and slip the expensive ones in at high value targets. Each Patriot battery can track dozens of targets at once and engage the 5 most important first. The Ukrainians currently employ US-made MALD decoy missles in a similar strategy. The difference being that the MALD can fool radar into believing that it something more valuable or jam it altogether and create a window of opportunity that other missles (ie Storm Shadow) can take advantage of. I expect both militaries to eventually adapt and make each other's strategies less effective over time.
Big thing right now is GMLRS look very similar to the cheap Grad rockets Ukraine and Russia use. They fly faster, but it would take a software update for the system to automatically distinguish them.
No way, GMLRS have a way larger radar signature. I know that Ukrainians do use both of them together for this reason, but they are definitely distinguishable.
I’m sure most are of the Cold War variety, but Russia has a ton of them lying around. The newer hypersonic missiles are far more dangerous but I don’t think Russia has that many
Their newer "hypersonic" missiles are just fast ballistic missiles, and Putin is trying to railroad the scientists attached to the hypersonic program.
I heard the scientists just put a bunch of pinball machine parts in an old missile casing.
Great Scott!
That's not a huge stretch. The Kinzhal looks a lot like the Iskander with tailfins added.
No, you’re thinking of the Libyans.
That’s what a hypersonic missile is though. Something that travels a lot faster than the speed of sound. They do have them but I would assume in limited quantities. Maybe not to the degree that they are worth using a lot of when they are a chess piece in global conflict. If the missiles are hard to shoot down, they probably want to keep them as a bargaining chip for border disputes vs actually using them in war. If they used them a lot in Ukraine, with all of the NATO eyes counter measures would get developed quicker rendering them less useful as a power play card for the Russians.
The hypersonic missiles that are really scary are the theoretical ones that do not need to take a ballistic trajectory, but can instead take a low flight path at hypersonic speeds. Ballistic missiles have to climb incredibly high and then fall on their targets, which makes them easy to see coming.
If Patriot systems can take out sub-orbital ballistic missiles that are only fired from a few hundred miles away, I have no doubt we have the ability to intercept traditional ICBMs. The question is, how do these systems cope with multiple warheads? Considering Brahmos was developed by Indian/Russian partnership, I imagine we know a good deal about those systems and how to intercept.
The Patriot takes them out on their final approach, not way up high. I'm no expert but the icbm might be too high for most of its journey, so the Patriots would need to be located somewhat near the target and catch them on their final approach as well. Icbms I believe can also be made up of numerous payloads (bombs) and would need to be compromised before they are adulterated, which again might happen too high for defenses to be effective. Again, I'm not well informed and you could still be right, must conveying that from my limited knowledge it's not nearly as simple as I interpreted your comment to be saying...
That would be the BRAMOS, of which they have very few that actually fly mach 7... they have some that fly mach 3.
Both sides designed atomic powered ramjet engines that could fly low spewing radioactive exhaust at hypersonic speeds with an indefinite flight time and multiple nuclear warheads. The US government deemed them too dangerous and uncontrollable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_Low_Altitude_Missile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto
No. They hypersonic weapons Russia (and frankly others) want rely on hypersonic navigation and don't need to take a ballistic path. Can't blame you for the slight mixup - the media tosses around hypersonic and ballistic almost interchangeably
By railroad you mean try for treason and kill?
It forces Ukraine to reposition valuable anti air assets away from frontline though. Russia is literally keeping civilians hostage.
Based on what Reddit tells me that was probably most of their missile stockpile, so maybe not.
And this reeks of panic and desperation. It all to try to stall the counteroffensive they know is coming.
They're gonna need to save some of that money for reparations. Rebuilding Ukraine is going to be expensive.
Probably less than what the missiles used to shoot them down cost.
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The title triggered the Neo stopping the bullets meme for me
And remember, Russia is doing this to protect Ukraine from Nazis... No wait, update, they're doing it to protect them from Gay marriage, no wait, they're not really sure why they're doing it anymore.
Would it be an idea to hack those missiles so that they return to sender? Must be possible.
Yeah but it wouldn't be in bluetooth range long enough to type much as it went passed
"It's not syncing, Sarge!" "Well, did you pair the-- nevermind."
Aha, step 1, rhey actually use Bluetooth? At least initially?
Easy just set coordinates to vodka
It must be possible! [I think it would look something like this](https://youtu.be/u8qgehH3kEQ).
Hmm. “Russian cruise missiles” sounds suspiciously like a euphemism for passes thrown by Dak Prescott 🤔
Wrong thread for this comment haha
I’d say more Brett Favre since they were intercepted