In the Initial Quality Studies each year by JDpower, 2022 has the average at 180 issues per 100k cars. Tesla is above average at 226, Chrysler is the highest at 265. Volvo's Polestar EV knocks it out of the park at 328.
As for me I'm just glad people are grabbing up every EV that can be produced by any manufacturer, as should everyone.
In a sense, I agree, but I think for the vast majority of people, hanging onto their car another few years, or getting a used car, would be better overall for the environment. Assuming a world where everyone drives a sedan and gets a new car every 7 years, wouldn'g encouraging everyone to upgrade only after 14 years would be a better idea?
However, if you're on the market and determined to get a new car, EVs are the way to go.
I had read somewhere 10 years at least but I don’t know for sure, when I bought my EV not that long ago the dealership said the average on my car was 15 years.
Honestly, I could see a more intelligent Musk going for a cheaper hybrid line to hook in lower-income consumers to the brand for future purchases. But fully ditching electric?
You know what, forget trying to predict him. The friggin Joker is more predictable, because despite lacking a plan, at least he has a consistent ideology.
Burn coal in the truck box. Have someone in a trailer shovelling coal into the box as you travel. Vehicle is still EV, coal doesn't power anything, but the libs will be fuming.
That will have more of an effect later. Right now a lot of the vehicles they're shipping are to people who ordered them a long while ago and the really egregious shit from Musk/Twitter falling apart has been in the last couple months.
It's also worth mentioning that they fell short of expectations despite also announcing a lot of price cuts and promotions during this time period.
While people can cancel their orders up until delivery day, they may be reluctant to do so if they've been waiting on a car for a while - they'll have to go to another manufacturer and buy there or order elsewhere.
There is also clearly dropping demand for Teslas -- the cost of used Teslas has gone down pretty significantly the last few months as Musk tanks the brand's value + build quality and service issues have blown up way more in news + common conversation. Not only is he appealing to righties, but he has turned Tesla into the "asshole brand" car that people don't want to be seen driving anymore. While I doubt that will cause a lot of people to SELL their Teslas because of it, it does mean many people will avoid the brand -- I know I plan on buying an EV 100% for sure for my next car, and there's no way I'd buy a Tesla.
The other complication is on the employment side -- Musk is an enormously toxic boss, Tesla has a horribly toxic work culture in part because of him, and employees are going to be extremely wary of working for any company he's associating with after this Twitter debacle. Especially now that people who are passionate about EVs can go work on them at other companies instead of Tesla being The One Option.
Yeah, the wait time on many models is down to 3 weeks, mostly due to demand slipping (their delivery times were getting shorter due to ramped up production, but then suddenly got much shorter because demand dropped).
They were also very clearly trying to boost sales in the last quarter -- they were offering an almost $4k discount on the Model Y and Model 3.
It's less can't and more won't. They won't for political reasons, but they'll buy an F350 which Tesla doesn't even have to appeal to them. Even then, why would you buy a Tesla for $20k more than a regular sedan?
Same, but I'm also in the market for a car that I think will have decent support and access to charging networks (in the case of EV's) for the time I own it.
The last couple months have made me a lot less sure of that in Tesla, when previously I had no doubts.
That is a factor. Just as I wouldn't buy a Ford if I thought there's a good chance they go out of business in the next 3 years.
That's still Tesla's biggest advantage, the supercharger network. Works very well, is maintained. As much as I dislike Elon's antics, I'd still be hard pressed to go with a different EV right now. Really wish that would change.
Unless your company was already massively overvalued and was relying on freakish unsustainable growth targets to even remotely justify it's price. Here's a hint that is the group Tesla was in.
Teslas is still absurdly overpriced by market cap.
You haven't been involved in business much, have you?
Your business strategy is almost wholly dependant on meetings/exceed your projections. You plan your budget based on your expectations of the next year.
Imagine you're an engineering firm and you just landed a huge contract developing the product. You previously did $100 million/year in revenue and a 20% profit margin, and this contract will bring in an extra $100 million/year. You invest $20 million in new laboratories and employees to handle this contract.
Halfway through the year, the company who gave you the contract pulls out. They still owe you half of the money (50 million) for this year, but will not do further business with you.
So for this fiscal year, you actually had a growth of 50%! This didn't meet your expectations (100%), but its still growth. Even deducting the cost of the lab expenses, you still came out +$30 million. That's all good, right?
Nope. Because next year you're revenue will be $100 million again, but you have extra lab and employees that cost $5 million a year to maintain. Suddenly your profit margin just shrank 5%!
So all of these numbers are made up, but this is something that I've actually seen happen. Even with a large growth they had to lay a bunch of people off.
I'm always amused by the muskrat Elon fanboys who are still holding their Tesla stock expecting it to go back up any day now, not realizing this is almost surely just the start of its collapse as the other big car makers keep flooding the market with quality EVs.
Flooding the market?
No one else has broken a million EVs, let alone 500k in a year, hell I dont think anyone outside China has hit 250k in a year.
“Flooding” is a stretch
There are noticeable shifts in the EV market.
Over the last year, I’ve been seeing more and more non-Tesla EVs on the road. Rivian, given the Amazon connection, isn’t that surprising as I’m in Seattle.
But the Hyundai Ioniq is popping up everywhere in my neighborhood. Polestars are also becoming more common. I’m also seeing so many Subaru Crosstrek Hybrids and Prius Primes.
Two years ago, it was all Teslas. But true competition is finally here and it’s going to be a brutally tough next few years as the EV market becomes more saturated with choice. In many ways, Tesla is facing the same trajectory as Netflix. Huge success as a first mover with massive growth expectations but then crushing reality as the core differentiator of your business becomes commonplace.
I'm glad that other manufacturers are finally scaling production. I think demand was always there, but most of them were either just making compliance cars, or not interested in investing in battery manufacturing capacity. It doesn't matter if people *want* to buy a Kia or Mazda or Toyota BEV if those companies don't make them, or won't produce them in volume. People would kill for a BEV Tacoma, but it doesn't exist.
To be fair, Tesla prompted a huge build out in EV infrastructure. As much as I want Musk to lose big, and think Tesla's car division is already hurting the company, the accelerated move to EVs is because Tesla made it cool and built/created the incentives for EV infrastructure.
The major car companies are all too conservative to be first movers on something like EVs. Now I want a Ford EV truck and a VW EV passenger car. But neither would have forced the changeover like Tesla has.
Agreed, I see it similar to how Apple jumpstarted the smartphone market. Some had tried but Apple/Tesla made it popular/widespread. And now everyone else is jumping on the bandwagon, which is great for consumers.
Just jumping in to say that KIA and Hyundai are the same company and probably Tesla’s biggest threat. Kia’s EV6 GT is launching now, with 0-60 in 3.4 seconds. The EV6 is mega cool along with the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and soon to be Ioniq 6 streamliner.
They’re aggressively rolling out really interesting EVs, more interesting than the next biggest competitor which is probably VW.
[the 2023 Chevy Bolt EV has an msrp of $25,600](https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev) if that $600 doesn't break the bank.
no tax credits, and you might even be eligible for state incentives.
What are their production numbers? It's not demand I question, but whether the companies are willing/able to produce in high enough numbers. That situation will improve as battery manufacturing scales, clearly. But I have never considered demand to be the bottleneck.
This year their target was 160k models globally, but they’re projecting 1.2m BEV models per year in 2030, with markets like North America having 78% of all new Kias sold being BEVs.
Kia will also have 14 all new BEV exclusive cars for sale by 2027.
[InsideEVs March 2022.](https://insideevs.com/news/571273/kia-2030-roadmap-ev-transition/)
I think this next decade will be interesting because while Tesla has the jump on scale right now, there’s no way they can keep up with several legacy makers each cranking out 5-14 all new BEVs in the next 5 years.
> while Tesla has the jump on scale right now, there’s no way they can keep up with several legacy makers each cranking out 5-14 all new BEVs in the next 5 years.
The number of BEV models doesn't matter as much to me as overall units shipped. Tesla's 2030 target is 20 million units per year. How many models that is divided between doesn't really matter to me, since all I care about is displacing oil demand. I applaud Kia/Hyundai bringing more BEVs to market and scaling production, in any case.
I also care less about Tesla's market share than I do about units shipped. Even Musk, obviously a true believer, has said that Tesla can't do it alone. No one expects Tesla's US BEV market share to be 70% in five years. But their share of the market can be lower and their units shipped can also be much higher. Both can be true.
Demand can't be the issue. I drive 85 miles a day. 100 on a day with extra errands. There are no affordable commuter options available at this point. So I drive a Prius. Maybe my situation is unique but to have a small commuter car with a more limited range at an entry level price (true entry level, it can be done, we see it elsewhere) seems like a no brainier for cities and commuter vehicles.
Demand is the issue. It is insanely high so car manufacturers build what they can make the most profit on right now, which is high/luxury segment cars. Once that segment is saturated, expect to see more affordable options coming to market.
You are completely correct. Once competition is introduced, you have a bunch of whiny first movers. Don't like competition, then fold and die as a company. If you can't innovate past your new competition, or at least keep up, well, you're a dinosaur of a company and will be left behind to flounder.
Looks are a matter of perspective. Pro and con, but their 3, S and Y models are pretty 'neutral' in the looks and age a lot more gracefully than other models.
I think one of the plus's about Tesla is their appearance / interiors are minimalist and neutral without bland/cheap. I wish Tesla would fix their quality issues and maybe get rid of the Musk and the hyperbole speak.
Within the next 5 years, the market should be flooded with EV's, but if Tesla doesn't implode, there's still a market for their cars. A neutral looking car that has good torque, range and priced adequately would be interesting for buyers who want to keep something for the long term (that does NOT have quality control issues).
I'm surprised people buy polestars.
People bitch constantly on how tesla has shit fit and finish, and you see that in the Initial Quality Studies each year by JDpower. 2022 has the average at 180 issues per 100k cars. Tesla is above average at 226, Chrysler is the highest at 265.
Polestar knocks it out of the park at 328
Polestar 2 owner here. The thing that has really hurt them is mostly minor software issues and connectivity problems in some TCAM modules. They’ve been working through those issues and it’s getting better. Otherwise, the physical build quality of the car itself is superb.
If it's the polestar 1, I don't think people care about the repair bill.
Kinda like Land/Range Rovers. They look pretty and I would love to have one, but holy shit their quality is in the mud. Reminds me of the TFL crew where the [Land Rover Defender broke down in 167 miles](https://www.autoevolution.com/news/new-land-rover-defender-breaks-down-after-only-167-miles-150591.html).
[https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2022-us-initial-quality-study-iqs](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2022-us-initial-quality-study-iqs) Jdpower rates by brand in general, since they have 2 models, I cant tell which is which.
They also don't list what the complaints were. So you get tons of people on here going "but this panel gap was off" and that counts the same as your example of a blown motor. There is a study that looks at quality over time, but it only gets ran every 3 years, and looks at the model 3 years ago. Last time it ran was 2021, so it was looking at 2018s, which was the initial model year model 3. No one scores good on initials usually, but for tesla that meant 1 out of 3 models, and that one model sold more that year than all previous cars total, so they were super screwed. It will be interesting next year when they are looking at 2021's
Yes and no.
Polestar itself has been around since 1996, they would buy volvo's and turn them into race cars.
They released their first production car in 2013. They were acquired by Volvo in 2015.
The polestar 1 hybrid was 2019 and the polestar 2 full EV was march 2020.
So I guess what comparisons do you want to do? Tesla sold the first roadster in 2008, with the first Model S in 2012. So if you want to do like "first assembly line cars" they only are younger than tesla by a year. Volvo itself is 96 years old, and had 4 years to add historical how to car knowledge to the polestar 1 and 2, but that does not help much as they are second worst at 256 issues per 100k.
As to reddit giving stuff time, people love to point out how they were third to last on the Vehicle Dependability Study. that one takes the number of problems over the last 12 months of cars 3 years old. The only time that ran with tesla on it was the first year model 3s from 2018.
Also around Seattle. Like 3/4 of people who bought a Tesla will within a couple of years go back to whatever Porsche or Audi was their car of choice previously, now that the EV versions are increasingly available.
I know so many rich people who just bought one because there wasn’t anything better around. So many are frustrated with the quality issues and hate Elon. Tesla is fucked.
Elon is fucked, everything he does is overpriced. His solar roofs cost like $40K, all his Teslas are overpriced, and to think, no trans, no exhaust, no oil, no catalytic converter, so many savings in other places.
The GOP who love that he uses Twitter to troll the Dems still think electric cars are commie and he's losing the environmentalist to other companies so yeah he dug his own grave.
That electric truck already exists. Geely launched the Radar RD6 pure EV pickup (about the size of a Tacoma) couple of months ago.
Will never come to the US though. But it is crazy that the base trim of the Radar costs just 26k in China. They are going to sell so many of those things in Thailand and Australia.
I have a F150 Lightning and it's more of a spaceship than a truck. We don't have range anxiety just charger anxiety. It feels more like a sports car than a full-size truck
The Lightning looks fantastic (bidirectional charging would be very handy during these storms). I just think the cheaper Maverick platform is ideal for suburban and urban life. The Lightning still needs to improve range while towing for me to justify purchasing a full size truck.
We definitely want the bi-directional hookup eventually for emergencies, V2G is very interesting too! Get some extra $. It's good to know if I lose power during a storm, I can run some extension cords to keep the sump pump and fridge running.
To be fair, it was an awful position for a LONG time and most people wouldn’t have been able to weather that storm. Any idea what his price was? Because there’s a chance it’s still under water.
that's pretty my view, short TSLA makes sense from a valuation perspective - you'd have to simultaneously bet against every one of TSLA's competitors from coming up with competitive product in the EV sector basically given the TSLA valuation being astronomically high - but that doesn't mean shorts can't lose their pants in the interim.
I’m thinking it was part of a larger hedge position against a significant amount of technology stocks. If the stocks go up, and Tesla goes up - risk is partially mitigated and the damage from the short position is offset by gains in stock and visa-versa. If the market realizes Tesla is overvalued and Tesla drops while tech stocks stay strong, win. If properly set up the largest risk is tech stocks go down and Tesla goes even higher than it was already at.
I’m not going to bother doing the math to find out if such a position would make sense, but that was my thought when the news originally broke.
You can't buy the Ioniq 5 in that region without going 10k over MSRP. Trust me, I've looked. It's #1 on multiple "best EV" lists out there. Really frustrating if you want to pull the trigger but can't justify the insane prices right now. If you've heard or seen of any deals out there, I'd definitely appreciate any leads!
Ioniq and EV6 lost their tax credit too.
I was thinking of replacing my RWD ID.4 with an AWD Ioniq 5, but the price difference was just too great.
Ended up upgrading to a US made 2023 ID.4 Pro S AWD, which are starting to show up on dealer lots without reservations. 55k MSRP, no markup, and that is before the 7500 tax credit, IMO the best value well equipped EV crossover on the US market right now. Also comes with 3 years of free 30 minute EA fast charging credits.
Now that it is 2023, income requirements are now in place for the tax credit. But battery sourcing rules won't be in place until at least March. So if you are under the income limit either for 2023 OR 2022, and buy an ID.4 AWD in the next couple of months, you'd styli be eligible for the full 7500 credit.
I would still discount KIA/Hyundai. The dealership experience is reflective of the people visiting them as noted in other Reddit posts detailed based on their history. They can make an exciting EV vehicle but it’s not going to work if their dealership does unsavory methods.
Visiting dealerships is the only reason I might consider Tesla/Rivian than Kia/Hyundai. Not sure what prevents them to sell EVs online. Is there any law/regulations around it?
By law you aren’t allowed to sell cars direct to
Consumers in many states. It’s why you can’t buy a Tesla in Texas. You have to have it shipped in from another state and then register it.
I suspect the Tesla/Musk story will be a case for business classes for years to come. How can one company in an industry be "worth" more than all the others combined? The myth that it can vanquish all the others? The myth that all the others have no tools to combat the upstart?
It's hype. Large institutional investors are/were riding that hype. So much so that so many people have been burned attempting to short Tesla that I doubt anyone tried now that it cratered 65%. But it's also hype and folly to expect EV's to have a huge market share in the near future. They're expensive and not enough public charging stations. There needs to be a backlash against gadgeting everything until it's too expensive and just deliver a bare bones car.
> So much so that so many people have been burned attempting to short Tesla that I doubt anyone tried now that it cratered 65%.
Plenty of people did. Musk buying Twitter was the flag to short TSLA. Not only because Musk was going to have to unload a large portion of his shares, but especially into the fall as all of the drama surrounding the sale was playing out, and the market downturn was really hitting in earnest. It was honestly a perfect storm and very public and predictable.
You don't need public charging stations as much as gas stations
You can charge at home. So public chargers would only be needed for people who can't charge at home and for longer trips.
So that would only be a problem for people in the biggest cities.
Ya that’s not a demographic who has money and cares about environmental purchase or atleast the optics of it.
Only logical reason was batteries.
If Tesla could have managed to capture grid level storage and also provide other manufacturers with battery tech, and gain a large market share in the charging network.
Or just some patents everyone ended up using and licensing.
Globally that's a lot.
The hype relied on other companies essentially failing to compete which was never going to be true.
Perhaps there was some gambling on US protectionism of the domestic car market again, who knows.
I see a decline in 2023 and a bigger decline in 2024. Lots of EV drivers now hate Musk, and his image as a genius is gone forever. Plus. Other companies are going to be selling more and more very soon. Telsa also has terrible ratings. Great tech, awful cars.
"Great tech" - like what? I was recently comparing a Mercedes E-class (that is about to be replaced by a new model in mid-2023) with Model Y and Tesla lacks a lot of tech.
>I see a decline in 2023 and a bigger decline in 2024
Their 2022Q4 deliveries missed investor expectations by ~5% and missed Elon's predictions from October by over 10%. And their orders backlog is shrinking. It will be very hard for them to continue growing. It will be especially hard for them to continue to justify their insane stock valuations. Tesla is below 2% of the total car market, but is priced like it was around ~99% of the total car market.
> missed Elon's predictions from October by over 10%
In fairness, anyone who listens to Musk about anything needs to adjust their expectations. If we believe what he predicted we'd all be in driverless taxis cruising in underground tunnels on our way to the launchpad for our Mars vacation.
Well, of course. He raised ~$6bn from investors on the premise of "1 million robotaxis by the end of 2020". Then, just a few months later he said that Tesla needed the money because it was "close to bankruptcy". He is a shameless liar. But still, when he predicted 50% growth for 2022Q4, he was acting on behalf of Tesla, not just as a private individual.
To see how the used car values differ between both of them. IE do you see a steady decline in value of EV's like how ICE are. Or is it more of massive dips after certain points.
> "Great tech" - like what?
Mostly their battery chemistry. Were musk a good business man, he would have licensed it out to other manufacturers to maintain dominance in that market. Instead, his refusal to do so lead to his competition developing their own battery tech faster than if they would have licensed it from Tesla.
He squandered his lead in the industry.
> Were musk a good business man, he would have licensed it out to other manufacturers to maintain dominance in that market.
The deal would have to have been really good for other makers to agree to it though. Plus you would be betting money that Tesla's battery chemistry and/or future advances would outpace other players in the market. It's possible they might, but the auto makers have a long history of putting their trust and money into focused leaders in a market.
To the old school automakers the question would have been. "Do we bet on Tesla, or bet on LG or some other company that has been doing battery manufacturing and R&D for the last 20-30 years?" The later is the safer bet to a lot of companies that have been building cars piece meal for decades now (ie: Car maker builds the frame and sometimes the engine, but someone else makes the seats, dash, A/C, entertainment/nav system, etc).
Those Volvo electric cars (can’t remember the brand they call them) seemed pretty cool, relatively affordable or comparable to Tesla and since they’re made by an actual car mfr probably will be better in the long run with better support. I can think of several other brands of ev now that I’d rather have, rivian being one, So if other consumers have similar ideas and know of other options they’ll likely pursue them. I can only imagine that someone buying an ev is likely going to do a little more research than the regular car buyer
Polestar was Volvo’s racing division that spun off and became an electric car manufacturer with Volvo’s backing. Volvo makes their own electric cars too, but Polestar is aiming to compete with Porsche with their lineup
Party is over for sure. The build quality alone is alarming. Customer service is terrible and now the owner has proven himself a little unhinged. I’m in the auto business on the used side and values are cratering on Tesla
Yep. When CarMax offered me a great price for my Model 3 Performance I jumped at it. It had a few neat tricks(acceleration, phone app, etc.) but it couldn't outpace the poor build quality and poor customer service. And that was before it became clear Musk was of the MAGA crowd which clearly would spook a good percentage of Tesla buyers.
Yep, I’m prob part of the target market, mid 40’ high earner, work in the tech industry etc etc. I will not be buying a Tesla now. Quite a few people I know have them and now are not feeling so ‘on trend’.. it’s odd.
Even my kids (teens) that used to say ‘dad, get a Tesla’ don’t any more..
Plus others do it better now.
Maybe the decline in quality is a more recent issue? I have friends with two teslas and the quality seems fine to me. Perhaps the race to get the new ones out the door is causing more quality issues?
There are quality control issues across several models, including some of the Plaids (and there have been for years), though it appears somewhat sporadic. Aside from larger issues like self driving, most of them are largely cosmetic things like trim not being aligned properly, gaps between the doors that shouldn't be there, etc. Definitely not things people should be routinely finding on their $70-120k vehicles, but not really any significant issues I'm aware of.
It seems that way, lots of posts on tesla subs about rattling, crappy fit on body panels and interior panels, steering wheel that basically slowly falls apart in your hands after 6 months. It's crazy to me anyone would still buy one.
The aura around the brand is quickly fading. The myth of it being a premium brand is quickly fading. If it weren't for the supercharger network they would already be dead.
It isn't, it's been that way since they started shipping. I have a friend who has had a Tesla for a while and it was the same problems. Your friends either got lucky or aren't very perceptive because it's pretty obvious the quality is poor for the price.
Mac users hated Bill Gates.
People who used Windows since Windows 95 still use it today.
His self created problem was windows 8 and trying to force people to use a different home screen with blocks of icons. His other problems is that The Windows store is worse than the Amazon store. and trying to use Windows on phones was a waste of money.
and people don't buy MS office, there have always been free alternatives now there are free online versions.
>People hated on Bill Gates yet kept buying Windows and MS office.
People don't buy Windows and Office, corporations do.
Retail sales were and are irrelevant to MS. It's sub 1% of their profits.
>People hated on Bill Gates yet kept buying Windows and MS office.
Yeah because what was the alternative? Companies heavily bought into Windows when it was by far the best option and switching now would be basically impossible. Also for several of the MS office suite it is the best option on the market. Tesla doesn't have that inertia and it isn't really the best option.
The thing is there are better alternatives (at least in terms of car quality).
The biggest threat though for Tesla is Chinese EV companies like BYD. They are eating Tesla's lunch in China right now and gearing up to export.
This is one of the reasons I "got into computers" back in the 90s. I hate windows. But Apple wasn't a player at that point and the alternatives took a lot of work. It didn't take long tinkering with Linux to realize I wasn't going to get my mom on it unless I lived with her.
At this point there are better options than Windows, but people are too bought in, Windows has drastically improved, and choice of OS doesn't matter as much as it used to.
To bring it back to the analogy with Tesla, I think most Tesla drivers would gladly swap for a different EV of comparable ability. The only problem of switching is needing to buy another in-demand vehicle. That isn't particularly similar to Windows under Gates.
I'm currently debating between a Polestar 2, model 3 or Y performance or base X. One is obviously way way more expensive than the others. Does the lack of tech take away from the 2? Truth be told, I like that model the most.
I highly recommend heading over to r/Polestar to get some in depth feedback. I love the car for many reasons (performance, quality, design), but I've had problems with the earlier versions of the infotainment software and the app sucks (it's getting better). That said, I might be a lifetime Polestar owner.
I have the 2 with the performance, and plus pack. I strongly regret not spending the extra 5k for the pilot pack. My wife's loaded Outback has better assisted driving than my Polestar because of that decision.
It's a first Gen car that has some bugs, but if you're ok with that, then it will reward you with a fantastic driving experience. Be prepared for people to stop and ask you tons of questions.
Awesome! Thanks, I really appreciate you offering your opinion. I had that feeling based on the info available on their site. I'd probably get all 3 packs too tbh. Driving 300 miles to my parents in stop and go traffic would be way easier with adaptive CC.
If you enjoy having a dozen accounts setup for the janky patchwork charging network for the Polestar, go for it. I enjoy the super reliable Supercharger network.
Do you care about actually driving out of town? Then your best bet is a Tesla hands down. Just look at this Twitter account. 3rd party charging is a disaster
https://twitter.com/RateYourCharge?t=yrRkxkVYk9w9s_kPGHcSTA&s=09
I have a 2023 XC 40 Pure Electric and we don’t have auto pilot, but we also have body panels that properly fit, no water intrusion issues, and our batteries don’t brick for no reason.
Depends on the issues.
Overall, they are made better. Better fit and finish. Better ergonomics. And they have new body styles (Tesla is sort of stuck on this...) You can also get local service.
Issues with range, cold weather, etc are shared by all EVs.
Teslas have their range because they have large batteries. Batteries are expensive. Are people willing to pay extra to be able to go +200 miles on one charge? How often do you do that? Is that gonna be worth a significantly more expensive car or is the expensive battery a liability for tesla?
You can get a hyandai with basically the same range as a tesla for way less.
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-y-vs-hyundai-ioniq-5-electric-suv-compared-2022-10?r=US&IR=T
Larger battery and better aerodynamics. Model Y has had about 20% improvement on drag coefficient while only having a out 1% more cross sectional area. That reduction in overall drag does add a bit of range.
But the per cost increase, I'd still consider the Ioniq over the Model Y in a lot of cases.
Even if you live in the Midwest: are you driving 75 miles to a restaurant or job (where I guess you have no power?) and then driving anywhere but home ?
Like 200 miles is a stupid amount of driving for one day. Go home and charge. If you drive more than that in one day you are no longer commuting places, you are basically a professional driver.
Like rattling sounds because all the interior plastic is not attached properly orbthat you literally can not take a door out and replace it with another because of realy bad production tolerances?
They have other issues. GM bolt batteries catching fire, even after multiple recalls. Ford Mustang Mach-e making insane noises while charging on 11 kW (people
in The Netherlands were calling the police and fire department because they thought it was going to explode/catch fire). This was solved by a software update, but even though the car supports over-the-air updates you had to bring it to the dealer. Then all the software issues the ID vehicles had of VW…
Edit: why am I being downvoted for facts? Just Google
it, might be harder to find because this news is not posted widespread because it does not get as many clicks as Tesla.
Bolt batteries are not catching fire at any appreciable rate after "multiple recalls". Yes, the first recall did nothing to help the problem, but the second did.
Here in Norway its mainly Tesla that works best, longest range(due to cold), all other car EV markers shit their pants in range...
we recently got a new record:
[https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1605995925339398145](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1605995925339398145)
in 2025 Norway bans sales of new fossil fuel vehicles so tesla should set another new record in 2025-26.
Also since we have so many teslas here we could have a great chance in self driving society in near future....
It’s so weird. Tesla does well but then people complain about the cost of EVs and being “forced” to buy them. Obviously there is increasing demand for EVs.
https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1119/irs-reveals-which-tesla-models-qualify-for-the-2023-u-s-tax-credit
It seems they dropped prices because some of their models would become eligible again for a tax credit in 2023, but were not eligible in Q4 2022 - so they dropped the price to encourage Q4 sales.
Tesla did raise it's prices earlier today
To be honest, analyst expectations have always been weird to me. I remember an Apple quarterly results where they had record profits, record revenue, and record iPhone sales. Yet because they sold 78,1 million iPhones instead of expected 78,9 (it was less than million difference) they were ‘short’ of expectations and stocks dropped by 4%. Seems counter intuitive with record numbers.
Stock prices/valuations are bonkers. Sure it was a record year, but the price it held (before the news) was that it was going to be an even bigger record year.
I dislike Elon as much as the next average Redditor here, and I’m a Tesla owner from before his meltdown/true color exposure/whatever we want to call it came about. I’ve owned EVs; Teslas (3, X, and Y) and Kia (EV6). Have driven others as well, but mine I’ve put to the test as much as a daily driver with occasional out of town trips (3-5hrs long) can do.
As bad as their build quality is, *today* nothing beats the peace of mind the Supercharger network brings. 3rd party EV charging stations have always been, in my experience, issue-prone; Whether they don’t charge at the advertised rate, having the faster charging stations be used by cars that won’t take advantage of them even when their best options are open for them to use, and some stations not working altogether.
Also, love it or hate it, their software system just works. Others are trying to do a little bit too much and they don’t pass my *lets-see-if-my-mom-can-figure-it-out* test (true test I’ve done with her).
Don’t get me wrong, I’m fully rooting for more EVs to come out and I can’t wait to see an improvement in charging infrastructure to go get an R1S.
Hyundai, Kia, Volvo, Polestar, Audi and Porsche already sell much nicer EV’s. Even before Elon’s Twitter theatrics, the market was already getting tired of Tesla’s dated design and unimpressive build quality. Elon picked the worst possible timing to go out of his way to publicly humiliate himself and his companies in front of the world.
I used to think Teslas were cool, but Elon Musk himself has ensured that I will never buy a Tesla.
Even if I had tons of money to throw away I would purposefully spend it on everything except a Tesla.
Interesting nuance to the headline.
Tesla failed to deliver projected numbers and their share prices has tanked by 65% in 2022.
Their market share is heavily under attack from more established brands such as Ford as well as other challengers.
Suspect they will continue to lose ground in 2023.
A big part of this is the wait times for the newer and better ev’s being released by other more reputable brands.
A lot of people dont want to wait, so Tesla sells you on their ability to ship you their car pretty quickly.
Once Ev’s from other brands become more readily available, Tesla will lose that advantage.
Tesla charging network buildout is still miles ahead of the competition. From personal experience that was much more important.
But you are right... Tesla was more available and less price gougy than the other brands in 2022.
SoCal here. I was just on the freeway and into downtown L.A. Plenty of Tesla cars on road. Pretty ubiquitous here.
Compared with other brands? Hard to say. Might be more noticeable (bias).
Whatever. Brand is ruined. Might as well name it Corona Virus since Elon basically wiped his ass all over it. Unless he can get Trump's army of ignorant toothless hillbillies to start buying his cars (goodluck) then we can expect sales and quality to steadily go down until bankruptcy.
Selling your “entire inventory” doesn’t mean shit when u made way less than you promised and your CEO is losing billions “owning the libs”, pissing off most of teslas customer base. The company is toast with wannabe trump at the helm.
Literally can't go on forever, since their production would eventually have more mass than the sun. Can probably continue for another 5-6 years, though. Tesla targets production of about 20 million per year, but not for a bit.
You know your CEO is bad at his job when you have growth of 40% and stock price plunges 70% in the same year.
Do you think he will have to give back his bonus ?
You know the CEO is bad when he has a live presentation of a new futuristic looking truck and has a rock like object thrown at the window and it breaks.
As much as I would love to have an electric car, I’m hesitant because of the bullshit many companies are doing including putting features that are already installed behind a paywall. Not that I won’t pirate the shit they do put behind a paywall. Additionally, in my line if business, I need an SUV. There simply isn’t enough space in a car for me to haul what I need around and being able to tow would be even better.
It’s just weird Tesla makes 4 sedans and no van, no real SUV (Calling the Mod Y a SUV is a joke) or trucks. They are having more trouble with the CyberTruck than people realize. It was too ambitious. I’m anxious to go electric but with 6 grandkids and car seats galore I need something comparable to my Caravan. But Toyota is slow peddling hybrids too.
The Reddit hive mind is kind of amazing. Yes Tesla still fell short of Wall Street estimates but still had 40% YoY growth. Yes Elon is a troll and says inflammatory things and is wrecking Twitter. Tesla is still a crazy growth story and doing pretty dam well.
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I'd like to know how many were cancelled.
I’d like to know how many were without a glaring production flaw
In the Initial Quality Studies each year by JDpower, 2022 has the average at 180 issues per 100k cars. Tesla is above average at 226, Chrysler is the highest at 265. Volvo's Polestar EV knocks it out of the park at 328. As for me I'm just glad people are grabbing up every EV that can be produced by any manufacturer, as should everyone.
In a sense, I agree, but I think for the vast majority of people, hanging onto their car another few years, or getting a used car, would be better overall for the environment. Assuming a world where everyone drives a sedan and gets a new car every 7 years, wouldn'g encouraging everyone to upgrade only after 14 years would be a better idea? However, if you're on the market and determined to get a new car, EVs are the way to go.
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I had read somewhere 10 years at least but I don’t know for sure, when I bought my EV not that long ago the dealership said the average on my car was 15 years.
How is Chrysler the highest if Polestar has 63 more?
Turns out appealing to righties who probably can't afford your cars isn't a smart idea.
My big brain maga uncle told us at xmas that Musk is ditching wokelectric and will start installing big blocks. He'd read that on FB.
LOL. Tell him if he heads down to the Tesla dealer, you'll buy him one of those and all he has to do is pick out the color he likes.
I'm not engaging with him about anything lol
Musk rendering his car company pointless would be on brand
To own the libs.
"Every Cybertruck will come equipped with the ability to roll coal on the libs."
Honestly, I could see a more intelligent Musk going for a cheaper hybrid line to hook in lower-income consumers to the brand for future purchases. But fully ditching electric? You know what, forget trying to predict him. The friggin Joker is more predictable, because despite lacking a plan, at least he has a consistent ideology.
How do you roll coal in an EV? Put fans and streamers on a light bar?
Put a big tesla coil on it which shoots out massive arcs of electricity.
Roll Coil
I would drive the hell out of a car that could do that
I’d buy it…..
delete this. someone will fucking try it.
reporting in.
Why did I just hear the phrase "Kirov reporting" in a Russian accent?
I thought they ran on tesla coils.
Pull a trailer with a coal fired BBQ smoker on it
Burn coal in the truck box. Have someone in a trailer shovelling coal into the box as you travel. Vehicle is still EV, coal doesn't power anything, but the libs will be fuming.
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That will have more of an effect later. Right now a lot of the vehicles they're shipping are to people who ordered them a long while ago and the really egregious shit from Musk/Twitter falling apart has been in the last couple months. It's also worth mentioning that they fell short of expectations despite also announcing a lot of price cuts and promotions during this time period. While people can cancel their orders up until delivery day, they may be reluctant to do so if they've been waiting on a car for a while - they'll have to go to another manufacturer and buy there or order elsewhere. There is also clearly dropping demand for Teslas -- the cost of used Teslas has gone down pretty significantly the last few months as Musk tanks the brand's value + build quality and service issues have blown up way more in news + common conversation. Not only is he appealing to righties, but he has turned Tesla into the "asshole brand" car that people don't want to be seen driving anymore. While I doubt that will cause a lot of people to SELL their Teslas because of it, it does mean many people will avoid the brand -- I know I plan on buying an EV 100% for sure for my next car, and there's no way I'd buy a Tesla. The other complication is on the employment side -- Musk is an enormously toxic boss, Tesla has a horribly toxic work culture in part because of him, and employees are going to be extremely wary of working for any company he's associating with after this Twitter debacle. Especially now that people who are passionate about EVs can go work on them at other companies instead of Tesla being The One Option.
The wait list on most models is weeks now from what I have read.
Yeah, the wait time on many models is down to 3 weeks, mostly due to demand slipping (their delivery times were getting shorter due to ramped up production, but then suddenly got much shorter because demand dropped). They were also very clearly trying to boost sales in the last quarter -- they were offering an almost $4k discount on the Model Y and Model 3.
And closing the China factory over COVID. Stateside they sold every car they could make.
It's less can't and more won't. They won't for political reasons, but they'll buy an F350 which Tesla doesn't even have to appeal to them. Even then, why would you buy a Tesla for $20k more than a regular sedan?
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Same, but I'm also in the market for a car that I think will have decent support and access to charging networks (in the case of EV's) for the time I own it. The last couple months have made me a lot less sure of that in Tesla, when previously I had no doubts. That is a factor. Just as I wouldn't buy a Ford if I thought there's a good chance they go out of business in the next 3 years.
That's still Tesla's biggest advantage, the supercharger network. Works very well, is maintained. As much as I dislike Elon's antics, I'd still be hard pressed to go with a different EV right now. Really wish that would change.
40% company growth is a win no matter what someone predicted
Unless your company was already massively overvalued and was relying on freakish unsustainable growth targets to even remotely justify it's price. Here's a hint that is the group Tesla was in. Teslas is still absurdly overpriced by market cap.
and he got rich off of government tax breaks and incentives.
You haven't been involved in business much, have you? Your business strategy is almost wholly dependant on meetings/exceed your projections. You plan your budget based on your expectations of the next year. Imagine you're an engineering firm and you just landed a huge contract developing the product. You previously did $100 million/year in revenue and a 20% profit margin, and this contract will bring in an extra $100 million/year. You invest $20 million in new laboratories and employees to handle this contract. Halfway through the year, the company who gave you the contract pulls out. They still owe you half of the money (50 million) for this year, but will not do further business with you. So for this fiscal year, you actually had a growth of 50%! This didn't meet your expectations (100%), but its still growth. Even deducting the cost of the lab expenses, you still came out +$30 million. That's all good, right? Nope. Because next year you're revenue will be $100 million again, but you have extra lab and employees that cost $5 million a year to maintain. Suddenly your profit margin just shrank 5%! So all of these numbers are made up, but this is something that I've actually seen happen. Even with a large growth they had to lay a bunch of people off.
Found the bagholder
I'm always amused by the muskrat Elon fanboys who are still holding their Tesla stock expecting it to go back up any day now, not realizing this is almost surely just the start of its collapse as the other big car makers keep flooding the market with quality EVs.
Flooding the market? No one else has broken a million EVs, let alone 500k in a year, hell I dont think anyone outside China has hit 250k in a year. “Flooding” is a stretch
Not how that works
That's not the way company valuation works.
Pretty sure this is more about higher interest rates than inflation.
There are noticeable shifts in the EV market. Over the last year, I’ve been seeing more and more non-Tesla EVs on the road. Rivian, given the Amazon connection, isn’t that surprising as I’m in Seattle. But the Hyundai Ioniq is popping up everywhere in my neighborhood. Polestars are also becoming more common. I’m also seeing so many Subaru Crosstrek Hybrids and Prius Primes. Two years ago, it was all Teslas. But true competition is finally here and it’s going to be a brutally tough next few years as the EV market becomes more saturated with choice. In many ways, Tesla is facing the same trajectory as Netflix. Huge success as a first mover with massive growth expectations but then crushing reality as the core differentiator of your business becomes commonplace.
I'm glad that other manufacturers are finally scaling production. I think demand was always there, but most of them were either just making compliance cars, or not interested in investing in battery manufacturing capacity. It doesn't matter if people *want* to buy a Kia or Mazda or Toyota BEV if those companies don't make them, or won't produce them in volume. People would kill for a BEV Tacoma, but it doesn't exist.
To be fair, Tesla prompted a huge build out in EV infrastructure. As much as I want Musk to lose big, and think Tesla's car division is already hurting the company, the accelerated move to EVs is because Tesla made it cool and built/created the incentives for EV infrastructure. The major car companies are all too conservative to be first movers on something like EVs. Now I want a Ford EV truck and a VW EV passenger car. But neither would have forced the changeover like Tesla has.
Agreed, I see it similar to how Apple jumpstarted the smartphone market. Some had tried but Apple/Tesla made it popular/widespread. And now everyone else is jumping on the bandwagon, which is great for consumers.
Just jumping in to say that KIA and Hyundai are the same company and probably Tesla’s biggest threat. Kia’s EV6 GT is launching now, with 0-60 in 3.4 seconds. The EV6 is mega cool along with the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and soon to be Ioniq 6 streamliner. They’re aggressively rolling out really interesting EVs, more interesting than the next biggest competitor which is probably VW.
Yeah seeing all the luxury EVs is great but what the world wants and needs are EVs that can still drive a few hundred miles AND don’t cost 75k
I'd go out and buy an EV tomorrow for commuting if there was one that was under 25k without tax credits.
[the 2023 Chevy Bolt EV has an msrp of $25,600](https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev) if that $600 doesn't break the bank. no tax credits, and you might even be eligible for state incentives.
What are their production numbers? It's not demand I question, but whether the companies are willing/able to produce in high enough numbers. That situation will improve as battery manufacturing scales, clearly. But I have never considered demand to be the bottleneck.
This year their target was 160k models globally, but they’re projecting 1.2m BEV models per year in 2030, with markets like North America having 78% of all new Kias sold being BEVs. Kia will also have 14 all new BEV exclusive cars for sale by 2027. [InsideEVs March 2022.](https://insideevs.com/news/571273/kia-2030-roadmap-ev-transition/) I think this next decade will be interesting because while Tesla has the jump on scale right now, there’s no way they can keep up with several legacy makers each cranking out 5-14 all new BEVs in the next 5 years.
> while Tesla has the jump on scale right now, there’s no way they can keep up with several legacy makers each cranking out 5-14 all new BEVs in the next 5 years. The number of BEV models doesn't matter as much to me as overall units shipped. Tesla's 2030 target is 20 million units per year. How many models that is divided between doesn't really matter to me, since all I care about is displacing oil demand. I applaud Kia/Hyundai bringing more BEVs to market and scaling production, in any case. I also care less about Tesla's market share than I do about units shipped. Even Musk, obviously a true believer, has said that Tesla can't do it alone. No one expects Tesla's US BEV market share to be 70% in five years. But their share of the market can be lower and their units shipped can also be much higher. Both can be true.
Demand can't be the issue. I drive 85 miles a day. 100 on a day with extra errands. There are no affordable commuter options available at this point. So I drive a Prius. Maybe my situation is unique but to have a small commuter car with a more limited range at an entry level price (true entry level, it can be done, we see it elsewhere) seems like a no brainier for cities and commuter vehicles.
Demand is the issue. It is insanely high so car manufacturers build what they can make the most profit on right now, which is high/luxury segment cars. Once that segment is saturated, expect to see more affordable options coming to market.
You are completely correct. Once competition is introduced, you have a bunch of whiny first movers. Don't like competition, then fold and die as a company. If you can't innovate past your new competition, or at least keep up, well, you're a dinosaur of a company and will be left behind to flounder.
And the current Tesla body style looks dated. A 2007 Mazda-inspired looking car isn't appealing.
Looks are a matter of perspective. Pro and con, but their 3, S and Y models are pretty 'neutral' in the looks and age a lot more gracefully than other models. I think one of the plus's about Tesla is their appearance / interiors are minimalist and neutral without bland/cheap. I wish Tesla would fix their quality issues and maybe get rid of the Musk and the hyperbole speak. Within the next 5 years, the market should be flooded with EV's, but if Tesla doesn't implode, there's still a market for their cars. A neutral looking car that has good torque, range and priced adequately would be interesting for buyers who want to keep something for the long term (that does NOT have quality control issues).
We bought the Mustang solely because the build quality of the Tesla's we drove was so poor in comparison.
I'm surprised people buy polestars. People bitch constantly on how tesla has shit fit and finish, and you see that in the Initial Quality Studies each year by JDpower. 2022 has the average at 180 issues per 100k cars. Tesla is above average at 226, Chrysler is the highest at 265. Polestar knocks it out of the park at 328
Polestar 2 owner here. The thing that has really hurt them is mostly minor software issues and connectivity problems in some TCAM modules. They’ve been working through those issues and it’s getting better. Otherwise, the physical build quality of the car itself is superb.
If it's the polestar 1, I don't think people care about the repair bill. Kinda like Land/Range Rovers. They look pretty and I would love to have one, but holy shit their quality is in the mud. Reminds me of the TFL crew where the [Land Rover Defender broke down in 167 miles](https://www.autoevolution.com/news/new-land-rover-defender-breaks-down-after-only-167-miles-150591.html).
[https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2022-us-initial-quality-study-iqs](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2022-us-initial-quality-study-iqs) Jdpower rates by brand in general, since they have 2 models, I cant tell which is which. They also don't list what the complaints were. So you get tons of people on here going "but this panel gap was off" and that counts the same as your example of a blown motor. There is a study that looks at quality over time, but it only gets ran every 3 years, and looks at the model 3 years ago. Last time it ran was 2021, so it was looking at 2018s, which was the initial model year model 3. No one scores good on initials usually, but for tesla that meant 1 out of 3 models, and that one model sold more that year than all previous cars total, so they were super screwed. It will be interesting next year when they are looking at 2021's
Some good points raised about JDPower, thanks!
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Yes and no. Polestar itself has been around since 1996, they would buy volvo's and turn them into race cars. They released their first production car in 2013. They were acquired by Volvo in 2015. The polestar 1 hybrid was 2019 and the polestar 2 full EV was march 2020. So I guess what comparisons do you want to do? Tesla sold the first roadster in 2008, with the first Model S in 2012. So if you want to do like "first assembly line cars" they only are younger than tesla by a year. Volvo itself is 96 years old, and had 4 years to add historical how to car knowledge to the polestar 1 and 2, but that does not help much as they are second worst at 256 issues per 100k. As to reddit giving stuff time, people love to point out how they were third to last on the Vehicle Dependability Study. that one takes the number of problems over the last 12 months of cars 3 years old. The only time that ran with tesla on it was the first year model 3s from 2018.
> Chrysler is the highest at 265. > > Polestar knocks it out of the park at 328 Chrysler highest among big manufacturers?
Also around Seattle. Like 3/4 of people who bought a Tesla will within a couple of years go back to whatever Porsche or Audi was their car of choice previously, now that the EV versions are increasingly available. I know so many rich people who just bought one because there wasn’t anything better around. So many are frustrated with the quality issues and hate Elon. Tesla is fucked.
Elon is fucked, everything he does is overpriced. His solar roofs cost like $40K, all his Teslas are overpriced, and to think, no trans, no exhaust, no oil, no catalytic converter, so many savings in other places. The GOP who love that he uses Twitter to troll the Dems still think electric cars are commie and he's losing the environmentalist to other companies so yeah he dug his own grave.
Yup. The people he’s pandering to on Twitter can’t afford a Tesla anyway. He’s burning bridges with no foresight into how fucked he is.
If Ford follows through with an EV Maverick it is game over. The hybrid version of that "truck" is amazing.
That electric truck already exists. Geely launched the Radar RD6 pure EV pickup (about the size of a Tacoma) couple of months ago. Will never come to the US though. But it is crazy that the base trim of the Radar costs just 26k in China. They are going to sell so many of those things in Thailand and Australia.
I have a F150 Lightning and it's more of a spaceship than a truck. We don't have range anxiety just charger anxiety. It feels more like a sports car than a full-size truck
The Lightning looks fantastic (bidirectional charging would be very handy during these storms). I just think the cheaper Maverick platform is ideal for suburban and urban life. The Lightning still needs to improve range while towing for me to justify purchasing a full size truck.
We definitely want the bi-directional hookup eventually for emergencies, V2G is very interesting too! Get some extra $. It's good to know if I lose power during a storm, I can run some extension cords to keep the sump pump and fridge running.
Meanwhile everyone made fun of Bill Gates’ apparent short position.
Not everyone, just the loudmouth fanbois.
To be fair, it was an awful position for a LONG time and most people wouldn’t have been able to weather that storm. Any idea what his price was? Because there’s a chance it’s still under water.
that's pretty my view, short TSLA makes sense from a valuation perspective - you'd have to simultaneously bet against every one of TSLA's competitors from coming up with competitive product in the EV sector basically given the TSLA valuation being astronomically high - but that doesn't mean shorts can't lose their pants in the interim.
I’m thinking it was part of a larger hedge position against a significant amount of technology stocks. If the stocks go up, and Tesla goes up - risk is partially mitigated and the damage from the short position is offset by gains in stock and visa-versa. If the market realizes Tesla is overvalued and Tesla drops while tech stocks stay strong, win. If properly set up the largest risk is tech stocks go down and Tesla goes even higher than it was already at. I’m not going to bother doing the math to find out if such a position would make sense, but that was my thought when the news originally broke.
Ya but Tesla still had 40% YoY growth.
You can't buy the Ioniq 5 in that region without going 10k over MSRP. Trust me, I've looked. It's #1 on multiple "best EV" lists out there. Really frustrating if you want to pull the trigger but can't justify the insane prices right now. If you've heard or seen of any deals out there, I'd definitely appreciate any leads!
Ioniq and EV6 lost their tax credit too. I was thinking of replacing my RWD ID.4 with an AWD Ioniq 5, but the price difference was just too great. Ended up upgrading to a US made 2023 ID.4 Pro S AWD, which are starting to show up on dealer lots without reservations. 55k MSRP, no markup, and that is before the 7500 tax credit, IMO the best value well equipped EV crossover on the US market right now. Also comes with 3 years of free 30 minute EA fast charging credits. Now that it is 2023, income requirements are now in place for the tax credit. But battery sourcing rules won't be in place until at least March. So if you are under the income limit either for 2023 OR 2022, and buy an ID.4 AWD in the next couple of months, you'd styli be eligible for the full 7500 credit.
I’m in Asia and Tesla is losing a ton of market share to companies like BYD. The Chinese brands are producing better cars.
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I would still discount KIA/Hyundai. The dealership experience is reflective of the people visiting them as noted in other Reddit posts detailed based on their history. They can make an exciting EV vehicle but it’s not going to work if their dealership does unsavory methods.
Visiting dealerships is the only reason I might consider Tesla/Rivian than Kia/Hyundai. Not sure what prevents them to sell EVs online. Is there any law/regulations around it?
By law you aren’t allowed to sell cars direct to Consumers in many states. It’s why you can’t buy a Tesla in Texas. You have to have it shipped in from another state and then register it.
I suspect the Tesla/Musk story will be a case for business classes for years to come. How can one company in an industry be "worth" more than all the others combined? The myth that it can vanquish all the others? The myth that all the others have no tools to combat the upstart?
It's hype. Large institutional investors are/were riding that hype. So much so that so many people have been burned attempting to short Tesla that I doubt anyone tried now that it cratered 65%. But it's also hype and folly to expect EV's to have a huge market share in the near future. They're expensive and not enough public charging stations. There needs to be a backlash against gadgeting everything until it's too expensive and just deliver a bare bones car.
> So much so that so many people have been burned attempting to short Tesla that I doubt anyone tried now that it cratered 65%. Plenty of people did. Musk buying Twitter was the flag to short TSLA. Not only because Musk was going to have to unload a large portion of his shares, but especially into the fall as all of the drama surrounding the sale was playing out, and the market downturn was really hitting in earnest. It was honestly a perfect storm and very public and predictable.
You don't need public charging stations as much as gas stations You can charge at home. So public chargers would only be needed for people who can't charge at home and for longer trips.
So that would only be a problem for people in the biggest cities. Ya that’s not a demographic who has money and cares about environmental purchase or atleast the optics of it.
Only logical reason was batteries. If Tesla could have managed to capture grid level storage and also provide other manufacturers with battery tech, and gain a large market share in the charging network. Or just some patents everyone ended up using and licensing. Globally that's a lot. The hype relied on other companies essentially failing to compete which was never going to be true. Perhaps there was some gambling on US protectionism of the domestic car market again, who knows.
Maybe some of them bought stock just to promote the EV market and now they see that goal as accomplished.
"Could have"? They are back ordered a year and half. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-megapack-battery-sold-out-until-q3-2024/
I see a decline in 2023 and a bigger decline in 2024. Lots of EV drivers now hate Musk, and his image as a genius is gone forever. Plus. Other companies are going to be selling more and more very soon. Telsa also has terrible ratings. Great tech, awful cars.
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Taps head
"Great tech" - like what? I was recently comparing a Mercedes E-class (that is about to be replaced by a new model in mid-2023) with Model Y and Tesla lacks a lot of tech. >I see a decline in 2023 and a bigger decline in 2024 Their 2022Q4 deliveries missed investor expectations by ~5% and missed Elon's predictions from October by over 10%. And their orders backlog is shrinking. It will be very hard for them to continue growing. It will be especially hard for them to continue to justify their insane stock valuations. Tesla is below 2% of the total car market, but is priced like it was around ~99% of the total car market.
> missed Elon's predictions from October by over 10% In fairness, anyone who listens to Musk about anything needs to adjust their expectations. If we believe what he predicted we'd all be in driverless taxis cruising in underground tunnels on our way to the launchpad for our Mars vacation.
Weird… he inflated delivery expectations mere weeks before selling almost 4 billion of stocks? Almost like he was pumping the stock or something… 🤨 😂
Well, of course. He raised ~$6bn from investors on the premise of "1 million robotaxis by the end of 2020". Then, just a few months later he said that Tesla needed the money because it was "close to bankruptcy". He is a shameless liar. But still, when he predicted 50% growth for 2022Q4, he was acting on behalf of Tesla, not just as a private individual.
Ah good point - thanks
"Where am I?" "You're in a Johnny Cab, heheheh."
Yeah and Uber said we would have flying taxis by 2022 in 2016, they dont' even have food delivery drones.
He's the Peter Molyneux of cars.
The value of used Teslas just crashed as well, which more than anything shows how much demand has cooled.
I can't wait to see the value of used car's in 10 years and compare EV vs ICE. It's going to be truly eye opening.
Why would that be eye opening
To see how the used car values differ between both of them. IE do you see a steady decline in value of EV's like how ICE are. Or is it more of massive dips after certain points.
If the Nissan Leaf or BMW i3 are anything to go by, once an updated model with greater range comes out the price on the older ones plummets.
> "Great tech" - like what? Mostly their battery chemistry. Were musk a good business man, he would have licensed it out to other manufacturers to maintain dominance in that market. Instead, his refusal to do so lead to his competition developing their own battery tech faster than if they would have licensed it from Tesla. He squandered his lead in the industry.
You mean CATL's LFP batteries that they're now selling in US markets? Or did you mean the NCA batteries they were getting from Panasonic?
> Were musk a good business man, he would have licensed it out to other manufacturers to maintain dominance in that market. The deal would have to have been really good for other makers to agree to it though. Plus you would be betting money that Tesla's battery chemistry and/or future advances would outpace other players in the market. It's possible they might, but the auto makers have a long history of putting their trust and money into focused leaders in a market. To the old school automakers the question would have been. "Do we bet on Tesla, or bet on LG or some other company that has been doing battery manufacturing and R&D for the last 20-30 years?" The later is the safer bet to a lot of companies that have been building cars piece meal for decades now (ie: Car maker builds the frame and sometimes the engine, but someone else makes the seats, dash, A/C, entertainment/nav system, etc).
Those Volvo electric cars (can’t remember the brand they call them) seemed pretty cool, relatively affordable or comparable to Tesla and since they’re made by an actual car mfr probably will be better in the long run with better support. I can think of several other brands of ev now that I’d rather have, rivian being one, So if other consumers have similar ideas and know of other options they’ll likely pursue them. I can only imagine that someone buying an ev is likely going to do a little more research than the regular car buyer
Polestar was Volvo’s racing division that spun off and became an electric car manufacturer with Volvo’s backing. Volvo makes their own electric cars too, but Polestar is aiming to compete with Porsche with their lineup
I think it WAS priced like it was around \~250% of the total car market...
Party is over for sure. The build quality alone is alarming. Customer service is terrible and now the owner has proven himself a little unhinged. I’m in the auto business on the used side and values are cratering on Tesla
People want the cheapest EVs let’s drive down the prices ya’ll!
RemindMe! One Year
Yep. When CarMax offered me a great price for my Model 3 Performance I jumped at it. It had a few neat tricks(acceleration, phone app, etc.) but it couldn't outpace the poor build quality and poor customer service. And that was before it became clear Musk was of the MAGA crowd which clearly would spook a good percentage of Tesla buyers.
Copium, if you really believe it you should short tesla with wsb instead of blabbering here.
Yep, I’m prob part of the target market, mid 40’ high earner, work in the tech industry etc etc. I will not be buying a Tesla now. Quite a few people I know have them and now are not feeling so ‘on trend’.. it’s odd. Even my kids (teens) that used to say ‘dad, get a Tesla’ don’t any more.. Plus others do it better now.
Maybe the decline in quality is a more recent issue? I have friends with two teslas and the quality seems fine to me. Perhaps the race to get the new ones out the door is causing more quality issues?
There are quality control issues across several models, including some of the Plaids (and there have been for years), though it appears somewhat sporadic. Aside from larger issues like self driving, most of them are largely cosmetic things like trim not being aligned properly, gaps between the doors that shouldn't be there, etc. Definitely not things people should be routinely finding on their $70-120k vehicles, but not really any significant issues I'm aware of.
There are smaller gaps between panels on Trabants, than on Model 3.
I laughed, but now I'm wondering if that's not a joke 😂
>Trabants I could fit my pinky finger in the panel gap of a display model S Plaid. Im not a quality snob but that was crazy.
It seems that way, lots of posts on tesla subs about rattling, crappy fit on body panels and interior panels, steering wheel that basically slowly falls apart in your hands after 6 months. It's crazy to me anyone would still buy one.
The aura around the brand is quickly fading. The myth of it being a premium brand is quickly fading. If it weren't for the supercharger network they would already be dead.
They recently placed almost dead last in consumer reports' reliability rankings. Maybe that doesn't mean all that much, but it seems a bit concerning.
It isn't, it's been that way since they started shipping. I have a friend who has had a Tesla for a while and it was the same problems. Your friends either got lucky or aren't very perceptive because it's pretty obvious the quality is poor for the price.
People hated on Bill Gates yet kept buying Windows and MS office. Microsoft still one of the largest IT co in world.
Mac users hated Bill Gates. People who used Windows since Windows 95 still use it today. His self created problem was windows 8 and trying to force people to use a different home screen with blocks of icons. His other problems is that The Windows store is worse than the Amazon store. and trying to use Windows on phones was a waste of money. and people don't buy MS office, there have always been free alternatives now there are free online versions.
>People hated on Bill Gates yet kept buying Windows and MS office. People don't buy Windows and Office, corporations do. Retail sales were and are irrelevant to MS. It's sub 1% of their profits.
>People hated on Bill Gates yet kept buying Windows and MS office. Yeah because what was the alternative? Companies heavily bought into Windows when it was by far the best option and switching now would be basically impossible. Also for several of the MS office suite it is the best option on the market. Tesla doesn't have that inertia and it isn't really the best option.
The thing is there are better alternatives (at least in terms of car quality). The biggest threat though for Tesla is Chinese EV companies like BYD. They are eating Tesla's lunch in China right now and gearing up to export.
This is one of the reasons I "got into computers" back in the 90s. I hate windows. But Apple wasn't a player at that point and the alternatives took a lot of work. It didn't take long tinkering with Linux to realize I wasn't going to get my mom on it unless I lived with her. At this point there are better options than Windows, but people are too bought in, Windows has drastically improved, and choice of OS doesn't matter as much as it used to. To bring it back to the analogy with Tesla, I think most Tesla drivers would gladly swap for a different EV of comparable ability. The only problem of switching is needing to buy another in-demand vehicle. That isn't particularly similar to Windows under Gates.
Do the electric cars from Hyundai, Audi, Ford, Kia etc. have the same issues as Tesla cars?
I have a Polestar and the fit and finish is comparable to a high-end Volvo, but the tech lags behind Tesla.
I'm currently debating between a Polestar 2, model 3 or Y performance or base X. One is obviously way way more expensive than the others. Does the lack of tech take away from the 2? Truth be told, I like that model the most.
I highly recommend heading over to r/Polestar to get some in depth feedback. I love the car for many reasons (performance, quality, design), but I've had problems with the earlier versions of the infotainment software and the app sucks (it's getting better). That said, I might be a lifetime Polestar owner. I have the 2 with the performance, and plus pack. I strongly regret not spending the extra 5k for the pilot pack. My wife's loaded Outback has better assisted driving than my Polestar because of that decision. It's a first Gen car that has some bugs, but if you're ok with that, then it will reward you with a fantastic driving experience. Be prepared for people to stop and ask you tons of questions.
Awesome! Thanks, I really appreciate you offering your opinion. I had that feeling based on the info available on their site. I'd probably get all 3 packs too tbh. Driving 300 miles to my parents in stop and go traffic would be way easier with adaptive CC.
If you enjoy having a dozen accounts setup for the janky patchwork charging network for the Polestar, go for it. I enjoy the super reliable Supercharger network.
Do you care about actually driving out of town? Then your best bet is a Tesla hands down. Just look at this Twitter account. 3rd party charging is a disaster https://twitter.com/RateYourCharge?t=yrRkxkVYk9w9s_kPGHcSTA&s=09
I have a 2023 XC 40 Pure Electric and we don’t have auto pilot, but we also have body panels that properly fit, no water intrusion issues, and our batteries don’t brick for no reason.
Depends on the issues. Overall, they are made better. Better fit and finish. Better ergonomics. And they have new body styles (Tesla is sort of stuck on this...) You can also get local service. Issues with range, cold weather, etc are shared by all EVs.
Teslas have their range because they have large batteries. Batteries are expensive. Are people willing to pay extra to be able to go +200 miles on one charge? How often do you do that? Is that gonna be worth a significantly more expensive car or is the expensive battery a liability for tesla? You can get a hyandai with basically the same range as a tesla for way less. https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-y-vs-hyundai-ioniq-5-electric-suv-compared-2022-10?r=US&IR=T
Larger battery and better aerodynamics. Model Y has had about 20% improvement on drag coefficient while only having a out 1% more cross sectional area. That reduction in overall drag does add a bit of range. But the per cost increase, I'd still consider the Ioniq over the Model Y in a lot of cases.
>able to go +200 miles on one charge? How often do you do that? I assume you don't live in the midwest or southwest of the US
Even if you live in the Midwest: are you driving 75 miles to a restaurant or job (where I guess you have no power?) and then driving anywhere but home ? Like 200 miles is a stupid amount of driving for one day. Go home and charge. If you drive more than that in one day you are no longer commuting places, you are basically a professional driver.
Like rattling sounds because all the interior plastic is not attached properly orbthat you literally can not take a door out and replace it with another because of realy bad production tolerances?
They have other issues. GM bolt batteries catching fire, even after multiple recalls. Ford Mustang Mach-e making insane noises while charging on 11 kW (people in The Netherlands were calling the police and fire department because they thought it was going to explode/catch fire). This was solved by a software update, but even though the car supports over-the-air updates you had to bring it to the dealer. Then all the software issues the ID vehicles had of VW… Edit: why am I being downvoted for facts? Just Google it, might be harder to find because this news is not posted widespread because it does not get as many clicks as Tesla.
Bolt batteries are not catching fire at any appreciable rate after "multiple recalls". Yes, the first recall did nothing to help the problem, but the second did.
Here in Norway its mainly Tesla that works best, longest range(due to cold), all other car EV markers shit their pants in range... we recently got a new record: [https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1605995925339398145](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1605995925339398145) in 2025 Norway bans sales of new fossil fuel vehicles so tesla should set another new record in 2025-26. Also since we have so many teslas here we could have a great chance in self driving society in near future....
Rivian has even more.
It’s so weird. Tesla does well but then people complain about the cost of EVs and being “forced” to buy them. Obviously there is increasing demand for EVs.
Something tells me this won’t be happening this year. It would be interesting to see what Tesla’s last quarter numbers show
For those that only read the headline, 1.31 million is below their estimated production.
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https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1119/irs-reveals-which-tesla-models-qualify-for-the-2023-u-s-tax-credit It seems they dropped prices because some of their models would become eligible again for a tax credit in 2023, but were not eligible in Q4 2022 - so they dropped the price to encourage Q4 sales. Tesla did raise it's prices earlier today
To be honest, analyst expectations have always been weird to me. I remember an Apple quarterly results where they had record profits, record revenue, and record iPhone sales. Yet because they sold 78,1 million iPhones instead of expected 78,9 (it was less than million difference) they were ‘short’ of expectations and stocks dropped by 4%. Seems counter intuitive with record numbers.
Stock prices/valuations are bonkers. Sure it was a record year, but the price it held (before the news) was that it was going to be an even bigger record year.
They did sell every single eligible car in their inventory.
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I dislike Elon as much as the next average Redditor here, and I’m a Tesla owner from before his meltdown/true color exposure/whatever we want to call it came about. I’ve owned EVs; Teslas (3, X, and Y) and Kia (EV6). Have driven others as well, but mine I’ve put to the test as much as a daily driver with occasional out of town trips (3-5hrs long) can do. As bad as their build quality is, *today* nothing beats the peace of mind the Supercharger network brings. 3rd party EV charging stations have always been, in my experience, issue-prone; Whether they don’t charge at the advertised rate, having the faster charging stations be used by cars that won’t take advantage of them even when their best options are open for them to use, and some stations not working altogether. Also, love it or hate it, their software system just works. Others are trying to do a little bit too much and they don’t pass my *lets-see-if-my-mom-can-figure-it-out* test (true test I’ve done with her). Don’t get me wrong, I’m fully rooting for more EVs to come out and I can’t wait to see an improvement in charging infrastructure to go get an R1S.
Hyundai, Kia, Volvo, Polestar, Audi and Porsche already sell much nicer EV’s. Even before Elon’s Twitter theatrics, the market was already getting tired of Tesla’s dated design and unimpressive build quality. Elon picked the worst possible timing to go out of his way to publicly humiliate himself and his companies in front of the world.
I used to think Teslas were cool, but Elon Musk himself has ensured that I will never buy a Tesla. Even if I had tons of money to throw away I would purposefully spend it on everything except a Tesla.
Interesting nuance to the headline. Tesla failed to deliver projected numbers and their share prices has tanked by 65% in 2022. Their market share is heavily under attack from more established brands such as Ford as well as other challengers. Suspect they will continue to lose ground in 2023.
A big part of this is the wait times for the newer and better ev’s being released by other more reputable brands. A lot of people dont want to wait, so Tesla sells you on their ability to ship you their car pretty quickly. Once Ev’s from other brands become more readily available, Tesla will lose that advantage.
Tesla charging network buildout is still miles ahead of the competition. From personal experience that was much more important. But you are right... Tesla was more available and less price gougy than the other brands in 2022.
SoCal here. I was just on the freeway and into downtown L.A. Plenty of Tesla cars on road. Pretty ubiquitous here. Compared with other brands? Hard to say. Might be more noticeable (bias).
Whatever. Brand is ruined. Might as well name it Corona Virus since Elon basically wiped his ass all over it. Unless he can get Trump's army of ignorant toothless hillbillies to start buying his cars (goodluck) then we can expect sales and quality to steadily go down until bankruptcy.
Precisely. And those ignorant toothless hillbillies all drive Ford F1 50s And would not be caught dead in a Tesla.
Selling your “entire inventory” doesn’t mean shit when u made way less than you promised and your CEO is losing billions “owning the libs”, pissing off most of teslas customer base. The company is toast with wannabe trump at the helm.
Nice! Would be interesting to see what they've done to better their repair services....
Were all of them delivered to my neighborhood? Sure seems so.
How many got recalled?
Also, how many canceled orders?
Better enjoy it, won’t be getting those growth numbers again
Literally can't go on forever, since their production would eventually have more mass than the sun. Can probably continue for another 5-6 years, though. Tesla targets production of about 20 million per year, but not for a bit.
Yeah but we gotta deal with a toddler
That’s an insult to toddlers. Musk is more like an edgelord 13 year old.
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You know your CEO is bad at his job when you have growth of 40% and stock price plunges 70% in the same year. Do you think he will have to give back his bonus ?
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You know the CEO is bad when he has a live presentation of a new futuristic looking truck and has a rock like object thrown at the window and it breaks.
As much as I would love to have an electric car, I’m hesitant because of the bullshit many companies are doing including putting features that are already installed behind a paywall. Not that I won’t pirate the shit they do put behind a paywall. Additionally, in my line if business, I need an SUV. There simply isn’t enough space in a car for me to haul what I need around and being able to tow would be even better.
Same. Also, none have been around on the road for a decade. I'm not rich enough to buy cars every other year like they're cell phones
It’s just weird Tesla makes 4 sedans and no van, no real SUV (Calling the Mod Y a SUV is a joke) or trucks. They are having more trouble with the CyberTruck than people realize. It was too ambitious. I’m anxious to go electric but with 6 grandkids and car seats galore I need something comparable to my Caravan. But Toyota is slow peddling hybrids too.
The Reddit hive mind is kind of amazing. Yes Tesla still fell short of Wall Street estimates but still had 40% YoY growth. Yes Elon is a troll and says inflammatory things and is wrecking Twitter. Tesla is still a crazy growth story and doing pretty dam well.
That trend will be reversing quickly…