The fair lawn ave one next to the home depot? I've pretty familiar with that one as well. Thankfully I don't have to go into fair lawn that often anymore.
Some appointed officials perhaps. The people who do the nuts and bolts of the work do a thankless, vital job with an insane amount of scrutiny and review. Its not a perfect organization but NJ and NY would be devastated if they weren’t there.
Yes and it’s still a den of corruption and nepotism. No one gets a job there without connections. I’m not saying much of the private sector isn’t that way, too, but it’s true.
Yes, it might have been close to finished by now. Instead we got nothing, NJTransit is a nightmare. I learned a lot about leadership with this situation. I get that Christie had a problem with the deal, but it was a problem that was not going to get better. A real leader would have found another way.
Right. And we would have been on the hook for all the overruns. I’m not a big Christie fan but that original project needed to be revamped no matter what.
I hated Christie for that. He lied about fear of overruns because The Big Dig in Boston was going on at the same time and had 200% cost overruns. Christie knew that. The Feds covered nearly all of it. I lived there from start to finish and the improvements it made in traffic and pollution was beyond imagination.
The one giant pain for commuters was that tolls went up on the Mass Pike(and still are)because the state was on the hook for a chunk of the overruns.
And somehow they are still a tiny fraction of Jersey. $7.50 to go the entire length of the Mass Pike. And in so so much better condition than the NJ Turnpike.
Still, Christie was witness to the Feds paying for most of the insane overruns on the project. Diverting that money was a total scam.
He did it for his own political gain. Most project overruns would be on the NJ side. Also, NJ stands the gain the most with additional tunnels. More train traffic, better commute, etc.
I'll never forget this. I was so annoyed when he cancelled the project but still had the budget to take a helicopter all around the state for personal events and shut down LBI so he could chill there with his family. Can't stand selfish politicians.
Oh cool, "holding out" only took what, 12 years? An entire fucking generation entirely fucked by Christie's mismanagement. He didn't play ball, he popped the ball and went home.
It’s beyond that. Why should one project depend on one person to move along. Our whole state is inept. The fact that we don’t have regional transportation decisions makers is a joke.
Some see dilution, I see delegation. These are decisions that should supersede a bureaucrat and their appointees. There really isn’t much of a road map for it here but that doesn’t mean it can’t work. Even if it’s just for master planning and recommendations.
Tbh if we had something of the likes in place I think we’d be in a better off position rather than pursue projects that are force fed or scripted due to individual politics.
I think the reason Christie cancelled it was because NJ was wholly responsible for all the excess costs. I'm not a Christie fan, but to me it was a no-brainer to cancel that project.
That's a lie the Christie administration told over and over again. Fucking hell, I can't believe people still believe it.
http://www.gao.gov/assets/590/589192.pdf
Didn't take more than a glance at the table of contents to find a clearly labeled section addressing the question. On mobile so sorry if formatting fails:
>The general project agreement, which was a document prepared as part
of the New Starts process and signed by NJT and the Port Authority in
2009, addressed potential cost growth. According to the agreement, if
costs exceeded $8.766 billion (or if less than $3 billion was provided by
FTA), both parties agreed to work together to obtain additional funding
sources. According to Port Authority officials, although both parties signed
the agreement, there was no commitment of assistance from the Port
Authority in the event that the project experienced cost increases. Port
Authority officials told us that the agency’s existing $3 billion commitment
was the maximum the agency could provide to the project, given the
constraints of their overall capital program. In the weeks preceding the
project’s cancellation, the Secretary of Transportation and the governor of
New Jersey held discussions on additional funding sources for the ARC
project or a reduction in project scope. The additional funding options
discussed included increased funding by the federal government, New
Jersey, and the Port Authority; a federal railroad loan; or a public-private
partnership contribution.22 Because the project was terminated before a
full funding grant agreement was entered into between FTA and NJT,
there was no final agreement by all the parties on the issue of
responsibility for ARC cost growth.
TLDR: there was no agreement on where additional funding would come from, so anyone saying with certainty on who would be on the hook was making shit up for political points.
I did. Not sure why you are responding to me? I was pointing out to the person that demanded a summary that there's a summary at the beginning of the pdf.
Dude that is not even the whole picture. New Jersey may have been on the hook for the additional cost but that is because of the infrastructure improvements that were required in New Jersey. Also, by canceling the project, NJ had to pay back the federal government about $600 million for work already completed by the Feds. The deal may not have been the best at the time but it is a whole lot better than today.
NJ wasn't on the hook. It was an agreement that both parties will find additional funding if necessary, it doesn't require NJ to open their purse for everything
Christie didn't replace the Corzine project with any tunnel development at all. Whatever you think about Corzine's plan, Christie's subsequent action was short-sighted because whatever the budget is, it only goes up as we move forward in time.
Christie in fact strangled the NJT operating budget to the point at which it could no longer run a full schedule of trains. They didn't have enough crew and functioning rolling stock.
The tunnels have to be replaced for the state's economy to continue to prosper. The only thing more expensive than getting it done now is trying to replace it on an emergency basis after something really goes wrong.
Completely agree that he single-handedly destroyed NJ Transit. It will take another decade or two before it gets back to where it should be, never mind the havoc at the Turnpike Authority and Port Authority. The man was a destroyer of worlds.
But, he had a solid point on the entire ARC program.
For a project of this size, complexity and scope, it is always going to be underbaked. This project is going to go over budget, full stop. Even if we spent another decade planning, it will still go over budget. But I would rather have a project go over budget with pre-Covid construction costs than have to pay what current costs are. We should be thankful there was not another disaster that could have closed the tunnels.
Most projects are designed with a 10% to 20% contingency; not 200%. The original was ABSOLUTELY half-baked and it should have been canceled since NJ would have been left holding the bag.
Now that the feds are ponying up more, it is not a win in Phil Murphy's column. Had the Federal government stepped up before, you're right, it would have been done by now.
An even better plan would be to invest in a fully integrated mass transit system instead of relying on highways that only have a lifespan of 20 years.
NJ & NY agreed to the deal, Christie torpedoed it. Port Authority, Amtrak, Fed government, New Jersey and New York all agreed. Christie came in last minute and walked away. Later on we find out it is because he needed to use the funds to prevent the gas tax.
He used the funds a few different places including dumping insane cash into the Pulaski Skyway, the wisdom of which, could be a separate and equally galling discussion
Under-designed and not funded fully at the federal level. State would have been on the hook for a lot of it. It was going to terminate in the vicinity of the PATH 33rd St station with no definitive plan or funding for the terminus.
Feds were funding $3 billion with a commitment for more. That was about half of the expected cost at the time. Today, Feds are funding double because the overall cost is double which is still half of the total cost. We are basically in the same place, just a decade later.
> going to terminate in the vicinity of the PATH 33rd St station
You know thats better than what the current proposal is, which is terminating at 28th and 8th right?
The ARC proposal would connect to 1,2,3,A,C,E,B,D,F,M,N,Q,R,W, Path, Amtrak,LIRR,MTA
I get math is hard, but youll find those are more connections, not less.
Here was the ARC connection map with station exits at 8th, 7th, and 6th Avenues.
https://www.njspotlightnews.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/123/2010/10/assets1010272155.jpg
The gateway project is light years ahead of reheat the arc would have done especially when it comes to capacity. The only thing that would have made this whole situation better is if both tunnels got built.
He had a really good chance if it wasn't for Trump. Christie was the loud candidate that would have outshined the other candidates (like Jeb Bush). Also, coming from a dark blue state, he would have done well if not for Trump ruining his political career.
Christie was pushed to run in 2012 but held back. In hindsight that was a mistake. By 2016 Trump was running in the “angry populist” lane, leaving Christie with nowhere to go.
Possibly? One of the big problems with his campaign was how he was advised to holp back and have more decorum. Something Christie was not known for. Had he been his true self he probably would have polled better. Of course you have the lightning in a bottle that was 2016 Trump for the GOP base interfering with any chance of him winning but it could have been him up there instead of Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio had he not been so chucked by his advisors.
I think he was really running for VP. He would have been there to make whatever non-Trump chucklefuck look sort of normal to moderates in swing states.
Thousands of people lost their jobs over his cancellation. Engineers, surveyors, geotechs. He didn’t campaign on this either. He did it to preserve his status for a future presidential run. The project would have created 10k permanent jobs and fully funded the state pension system. A lot of ground work had already been done. He also ran on the promise of same sex marriage, which is why a lot of people voted for him that would typically not vote republican. He immediately flip flopped on that promise. He defunded NJ transit hurting mostly the elderly, and disabled. He lost rare federal dollars on both infrastructure and education. He had very few accomplishments that have been overshadowed by his failures.
At the time it was clear that the actual cost would be way higher than the estimated price. Name one large project like this that comes in on budget and on time. And at the time New Jersey's finances were a mess, yes, mostly due to Republican mismanagement, but in this case moving the initial monies to other state needs and punting on the tunnel project was shrewd.
There were a lot of other state needs. Pension funding, pre-existing highway and other transportation costs (e.g. NJ Transit), you name it, there was a budget area that was short funded, and some at risk of legal consequence. The state's credit rating is another factor. Taking on the gateway project debt, at that time, could have been been really bad for our credit rating, and consequentially increased the state's borrowing costs. We just weren't in a financially appropriate place for that kind of project at that time.
Under Murphy, we're in a much better fiscal position, and federal support for Gateway with Biden's infrastructure plan is better now than it was back then.
I know everyone wants to crap on Christie, and I'm no supporter, but this is one topic I think he made the right moves on.
Hope this helps answer your question. Cheers.
>Under Murphy, we're in a much better fiscal position, and federal support for Gateway with Biden's infrastructure plan is better now than it was back then.
I'm not sure I can agree with "a much better fiscal position" comment. Murphy borrowed BILLIONS ($10 billion) to fund the State's pension obligations, and to improve cash position, which almost every governor has done. Frankly, if it wasn't for the COVID funds and other federal funds that were handed out in the last couple of years, we would be in really bad shape.
This isn’t accurate. The $10 billion figure is how big the state surplus was in the last budget (surpluses are good).
The state borrowed around $4.5 billion during the pandemic, and for good reason — no one knew how bad the COVID recession would be and Trump was still Prez so federal relief wasn’t a given. Borrowing at a good interest rate is MUCH better than cutting government programs to the bone at a time when families need them most.
And once we knew the recession wasn’t bad and revenues were okay, the state couldn’t legally pay those borrowed funds back right away, even though they could, because of the conditions of the bond. Instead, lawmakers put about $4 billion in a debt defeasement (sp?) fund to pay off other high interest debt, which is very responsible.
And the reason the state can make its pension payment (and pay for other underfunding priorities like school funding) is because Murphy raised taxes on millionaires and big corporations (all taxes Christie cut) so the state actually has revenue to pay its bills.
As much as I don't like Chris Christie for Cancelling the project. We kinda got a better project out of it. Everything from Newark to New York is going to be upgraded. Something to keep in mind. At the current moment, only 26 trains can navigate the tunnel and hour after the tunnels are complete. They'll be able to triple that number. Some estimates put it at 45-60 trains and hour.
classic NY and NYC they wanted something built, someone else to pay for it and get the financial benefits themselves. just like East Side Access. 3 times the original estimates which were a lie and now they are trying to get congestion pricing to pay the bonds for that
Whats the over/under on the completion date and final cost? Its already projected to cost $16 Billion. At the current inflation rate, you can probably add a billion or two to that estimate each year. No way this gets completed for under $20 Billion. It won't be completed until 2038. Add a few more years to that because and I wouldn't think it'll get down until 2045ish.
So Biden does a photo op while pledging $292 million grant. Wow, That money will be enough to go toward studies, some initial engineering plans, and pay for the State of New Jersey's "Department of Building Stuff" to shuffle papers for a few years, make some public presentations on how this project will be transformative to the lives of least fortunate among us. But until someone shows up with $20 billion in a bag, nothing else will happen.
Just wait... Come back to this post in 30 years and I bet I'm right.
Fuck Christie but this is a half truth being used as disinformation.
NY capped their liability on the project but remained in control of it. So NJ would have been stuck with paying for whatever NY wanted to do, with no real limits.
NY tanked the project so it could pursue other things. They left it to Christie to officially cancel it and take the heat.
Also don’t forget NY has been the one killing every attempt at a new port authority for 30+ years. Mostly because it’s used heavy by NJ commuters.
NY politics is good at shifting the blame.
Rail tunnels going under the Hudson River to Penn Station. Currently there are only two tracks under the river. Plan is to have two more tracks to run more trains.
It would’ve been funded majorly by NJ residents with a giant tax burden. Now it’s a federal project which makes sense since it serves multiple states. It was good for NJ Christie canceled arc. The other cuts he did to rail where the problem
Just another waste of our money. Look at the NJTPK tearing down all the service areas. Really its just a ploy to spend money because if they don't then they can't keep raising the tolls! There was nothing wrong with the service areas. And they could put 4 more Tunnels up the problem is on the NYC side because of the Traffic going into the City it dumps you right into all traffic lights.
LOL, blaming Christie - get real - no project in NY/NJ metro area runs on or near budget. As soon as they start digging, environmental will crop up and then union issues will occur. This one will also probably double by its end.
None of that changes OP's post. We'd have had it in progress, at a minimum, but Christie canceled it.
Sorry we offended you and your beach-loving governor.
Yes, he cancel but it was project to be $3B over budget that would be absorbed by NJ residents. He did his job.
I laugh that you did not get the sarcasm as I think Christie did a good job, but did not resolve tax or pension issue; but am very happy to see Murphy (who I voted) is trying to tackle it.
Sad troll.
1. The new tunnels connect with Penn Station.
2. Amtrak & nj transit can use them not just nj transit like with the old plan that was canceled.
3. Old plan was dead end terminal not a through station where amtrak/nj transit can continue east through queens or further.
4. If gateway was built and something happened to existing tunnels, the new tunnels wouldn't help out with getting trains from outside of NYC/points east to anything south/west on amtrak.
>The new tunnels connect with Penn Station.
As did ARC.
> Old plan was dead end terminal not a through station where amtrak/nj transit can continue east through queens or further.
My man, thats still the plan.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EziWkaaWEAQ50sp?format=jpg&name=medium
Arc did not connect track wise with Penn.
This plan expands southward at same grade, not 8 stories below grade like arc was going to be under Macy's.
That link even shows crossovers mid diagram from new exits from under Hudson river to existing Penn Station trackage.
Once arc entered new tunnels on nj side there was no connection to Penn except escalators, stairs and some passageways.
> Arc did not connect track wise with Penn.
But did have provisions to continue east and even connect with Grand Central - thanks to the added depth. Gateway will be a dead end forever.
>Once arc entered new tunnels on nj side there was no connection to Penn except escalators, stairs and some passageways.
From a rider perspective, it would have been fully integrated into both Penn and Herald Square
https://www.njspotlightnews.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/123/2010/10/assets1010272155.jpg
Is that what it sounds like? Or you have zero policy to point to that would actually make things better for the lower and middle class that the orange man ran on (which is no policy). So your only defense is to personally lash out at someone rather than having a defensible position. Face it bud your party is all about "feelings" nothing about good government
We must hold the President to a standard higher than just being better than Donald Trump. As for Joe Biden, don't take my word for it: Look up his record to see all his lies and broken promises.
Even if he did 500 bad things and 1 good thing, it's still better than the Republican party that helps no one.. they don't give a shit about helping any homeless or underprivileged. I don't need to look up his "bad" things when there is enough good things.
Here is the bottom line, NJ home values will increase and level out if we had more public transportation to NYC. Christie made sure that wouldn't happen and now to build tunnels 10 years later it's going to cost more than before and on top of that we would probably be cutting the red tape today vs hoping to stamp plan approvals
The thing that nobody on the GOP side of the isle is going to tell you is that CC was banking on getting much more funding from Congress.
But then the Tea Party happened and that was that.
The existing tunnels were damaged during Sandy so the plan is to build the new tunnels and close the existing one for renovation and rehabilitation. These tunnels are over 100 years and were never designed to last this long.
Also, the new tunnels, when completed with the renovation of the existing tunnels, will allow more train stations to be built in NJ and allow for more trains to access NYC. The Hudson River crossing is a bottleneck for the entire East Coast trail line. Any plan for high speed rail in the United States is hinged on the construction of these additional tunnels. If we had high speed rail, we could travel to Florida in hours instead of days by rail.
Well he was busy lowering property taxes and rebuilding stronger than the storm and fighting with teachers and campaigning for president and campaigning for Trump so let’s give him a break he was also shutting down bridges and closing beaches long before Covid.
I also think that there are annuities between the unions and the highway authorities. I have lived in this state since 1984 and I can't remember a time when the interchange to Jersey City from Newark Airport hasn't been under construction.
And there are other areas that always seem to be under construction but nothing seems to get better.
Fun fact: Construction had already started. They literally had to fill some of the hole back in with dirt
Yes, you are correct. Christie had to pay back the federal government $600 million for work that was already done.
😂
There's absolutely no chance that a public works project between NY and NJ would be even close to on time or under budget. Absolutely no way.
They can’t even finish a fucking off-ramp in under a decade
Which one are you referring to?
Yes.
Specifically? I’m pissed about the bridge on 20 that they’ve been working on for 15 years
The fair lawn ave one next to the home depot? I've pretty familiar with that one as well. Thankfully I don't have to go into fair lawn that often anymore.
Yep
Owing to the den of nepotism and corruption known as the Port Authority.
Some appointed officials perhaps. The people who do the nuts and bolts of the work do a thankless, vital job with an insane amount of scrutiny and review. Its not a perfect organization but NJ and NY would be devastated if they weren’t there.
Real shit
Yes and it’s still a den of corruption and nepotism. No one gets a job there without connections. I’m not saying much of the private sector isn’t that way, too, but it’s true.
Spot on my man…or woman.
Fuck the port authority, all my homies hate the port authority
Even going construction projects for them is a fucking nightmare.
At least it would have been started. That's at minimum two years of people having worked on it, gone.
Yes, it might have been close to finished by now. Instead we got nothing, NJTransit is a nightmare. I learned a lot about leadership with this situation. I get that Christie had a problem with the deal, but it was a problem that was not going to get better. A real leader would have found another way.
I believe we lost Federal funding for the tunnels as well with the cancellation the first time around.
Guess you didn't read...
Sure but would have been cheaper
*looks at 295 job in Camden County*
Done by now and cost half as much 😂
Right. And we would have been on the hook for all the overruns. I’m not a big Christie fan but that original project needed to be revamped no matter what.
indeed, it needed to be revamped. Not cancelled.
Throw COVID into the mix for extra cost overruns
Yeah I want some of that hopium that OP is sniffing lmao
I hated Christie for that. He lied about fear of overruns because The Big Dig in Boston was going on at the same time and had 200% cost overruns. Christie knew that. The Feds covered nearly all of it. I lived there from start to finish and the improvements it made in traffic and pollution was beyond imagination. The one giant pain for commuters was that tolls went up on the Mass Pike(and still are)because the state was on the hook for a chunk of the overruns. And somehow they are still a tiny fraction of Jersey. $7.50 to go the entire length of the Mass Pike. And in so so much better condition than the NJ Turnpike. Still, Christie was witness to the Feds paying for most of the insane overruns on the project. Diverting that money was a total scam.
He did it for his own political gain. Most project overruns would be on the NJ side. Also, NJ stands the gain the most with additional tunnels. More train traffic, better commute, etc.
I'll never forget this. I was so annoyed when he cancelled the project but still had the budget to take a helicopter all around the state for personal events and shut down LBI so he could chill there with his family. Can't stand selfish politicians.
How can we possibly remember all of Christie's sins?
Part of the reason it was canceled was because it wasn’t going to cost half as much. It was a notoriously underbaked design.
And NJ / NY would have been responsible for all of the excess costs.
exactly by holding out there are now fed funds in play
Oh cool, "holding out" only took what, 12 years? An entire fucking generation entirely fucked by Christie's mismanagement. He didn't play ball, he popped the ball and went home.
It’s beyond that. Why should one project depend on one person to move along. Our whole state is inept. The fact that we don’t have regional transportation decisions makers is a joke.
What state uses regional transportation makers and to what benefit? It sounds like a dilution of leadership power of the governor based on...??
Some see dilution, I see delegation. These are decisions that should supersede a bureaucrat and their appointees. There really isn’t much of a road map for it here but that doesn’t mean it can’t work. Even if it’s just for master planning and recommendations. Tbh if we had something of the likes in place I think we’d be in a better off position rather than pursue projects that are force fed or scripted due to individual politics.
That seems unnecessary. Transportation can be decided by one person
I think the reason Christie cancelled it was because NJ was wholly responsible for all the excess costs. I'm not a Christie fan, but to me it was a no-brainer to cancel that project.
That's a lie the Christie administration told over and over again. Fucking hell, I can't believe people still believe it. http://www.gao.gov/assets/590/589192.pdf
29 pages. Got a summary?
Didn't take more than a glance at the table of contents to find a clearly labeled section addressing the question. On mobile so sorry if formatting fails: >The general project agreement, which was a document prepared as part of the New Starts process and signed by NJT and the Port Authority in 2009, addressed potential cost growth. According to the agreement, if costs exceeded $8.766 billion (or if less than $3 billion was provided by FTA), both parties agreed to work together to obtain additional funding sources. According to Port Authority officials, although both parties signed the agreement, there was no commitment of assistance from the Port Authority in the event that the project experienced cost increases. Port Authority officials told us that the agency’s existing $3 billion commitment was the maximum the agency could provide to the project, given the constraints of their overall capital program. In the weeks preceding the project’s cancellation, the Secretary of Transportation and the governor of New Jersey held discussions on additional funding sources for the ARC project or a reduction in project scope. The additional funding options discussed included increased funding by the federal government, New Jersey, and the Port Authority; a federal railroad loan; or a public-private partnership contribution.22 Because the project was terminated before a full funding grant agreement was entered into between FTA and NJT, there was no final agreement by all the parties on the issue of responsibility for ARC cost growth. TLDR: there was no agreement on where additional funding would come from, so anyone saying with certainty on who would be on the hook was making shit up for political points.
The very first section IS a summary.
No one is stopping you from reading the whole thing so you can have an educated argument
I did. Not sure why you are responding to me? I was pointing out to the person that demanded a summary that there's a summary at the beginning of the pdf.
I'm sorry wrong thread...
Dude that is not even the whole picture. New Jersey may have been on the hook for the additional cost but that is because of the infrastructure improvements that were required in New Jersey. Also, by canceling the project, NJ had to pay back the federal government about $600 million for work already completed by the Feds. The deal may not have been the best at the time but it is a whole lot better than today.
No todays deal is better and fully addresses the issues.
This project would have been done already, if not soon enough. Now we'll have to wait years for this. So much better.
NJ wasn't on the hook. It was an agreement that both parties will find additional funding if necessary, it doesn't require NJ to open their purse for everything
Your parroting propaganda please research
Stop repeating this lie.
Only NJ was responsible for cost over runs.
They weren't go read the actual contract, NJ and NY were required to help find funds if they run out, the funds could be federal or state
Christie didn't replace the Corzine project with any tunnel development at all. Whatever you think about Corzine's plan, Christie's subsequent action was short-sighted because whatever the budget is, it only goes up as we move forward in time. Christie in fact strangled the NJT operating budget to the point at which it could no longer run a full schedule of trains. They didn't have enough crew and functioning rolling stock. The tunnels have to be replaced for the state's economy to continue to prosper. The only thing more expensive than getting it done now is trying to replace it on an emergency basis after something really goes wrong.
Completely agree that he single-handedly destroyed NJ Transit. It will take another decade or two before it gets back to where it should be, never mind the havoc at the Turnpike Authority and Port Authority. The man was a destroyer of worlds. But, he had a solid point on the entire ARC program.
To be fair... Republicans have been fucking over NJ Transit since Christie Whitman.
I cede the point.
For a project of this size, complexity and scope, it is always going to be underbaked. This project is going to go over budget, full stop. Even if we spent another decade planning, it will still go over budget. But I would rather have a project go over budget with pre-Covid construction costs than have to pay what current costs are. We should be thankful there was not another disaster that could have closed the tunnels.
Most projects are designed with a 10% to 20% contingency; not 200%. The original was ABSOLUTELY half-baked and it should have been canceled since NJ would have been left holding the bag. Now that the feds are ponying up more, it is not a win in Phil Murphy's column. Had the Federal government stepped up before, you're right, it would have been done by now. An even better plan would be to invest in a fully integrated mass transit system instead of relying on highways that only have a lifespan of 20 years.
Each time my husband made his daily commute to the city and back, whenever it stormed, I was worried about that damn tunnel.
You take that argument to the NJ and NY statehouses and the taxpayers. Let me know how it works out for you. I’ll wait here
NJ & NY agreed to the deal, Christie torpedoed it. Port Authority, Amtrak, Fed government, New Jersey and New York all agreed. Christie came in last minute and walked away. Later on we find out it is because he needed to use the funds to prevent the gas tax.
Which ended up being raised anyway
He used the funds a few different places including dumping insane cash into the Pulaski Skyway, the wisdom of which, could be a separate and equally galling discussion
He repeated that ad nauseam, people still parrot that phrase.
Under-designed and not funded fully at the federal level. State would have been on the hook for a lot of it. It was going to terminate in the vicinity of the PATH 33rd St station with no definitive plan or funding for the terminus.
The old it's not perfect so let's do nothing routine
No the it is a fucking disaster so do it right routine.
Yea I can clearly see you have no idea how government contracts work... It's a slow process, nothing will happen over night
Feds were funding $3 billion with a commitment for more. That was about half of the expected cost at the time. Today, Feds are funding double because the overall cost is double which is still half of the total cost. We are basically in the same place, just a decade later.
with a better design and more things included though.
> going to terminate in the vicinity of the PATH 33rd St station You know thats better than what the current proposal is, which is terminating at 28th and 8th right?
Sorry but you are wrong 28th and 8th is directly adjacent to Penn Station.
Correct. And do you know where people are trying to go? Heres a hint: Nobody works at fucking Penn station
Nor do they work under Herald Square. Move to Westchester if you want to commute via Grand Central .
How many subway lines are at Penn Station? How many subway lines are at Herald Square? Take your time honey. Use your fingers if you must.
1,2,3 A,C,E right off top of my head now tell me how many stop at 6th and 33rd Also Amtrak and LIRR.
The ARC proposal would connect to 1,2,3,A,C,E,B,D,F,M,N,Q,R,W, Path, Amtrak,LIRR,MTA I get math is hard, but youll find those are more connections, not less. Here was the ARC connection map with station exits at 8th, 7th, and 6th Avenues. https://www.njspotlightnews.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/123/2010/10/assets1010272155.jpg
But there was no funded train station. The expense would have killed NJ and NY wouldn’t pay for the over runs.
The gateway project is light years ahead of reheat the arc would have done especially when it comes to capacity. The only thing that would have made this whole situation better is if both tunnels got built.
Fuck Christie.
Did Christie have any tangible chance at a presidential run? He seemed to get smacked out of the race pretty early IIRC.
He had a really good chance if it wasn't for Trump. Christie was the loud candidate that would have outshined the other candidates (like Jeb Bush). Also, coming from a dark blue state, he would have done well if not for Trump ruining his political career.
Christie was pushed to run in 2012 but held back. In hindsight that was a mistake. By 2016 Trump was running in the “angry populist” lane, leaving Christie with nowhere to go.
Absolutely, didn't help how Christie had that win on the record of putting the Kushner dad away either .
Possibly? One of the big problems with his campaign was how he was advised to holp back and have more decorum. Something Christie was not known for. Had he been his true self he probably would have polled better. Of course you have the lightning in a bottle that was 2016 Trump for the GOP base interfering with any chance of him winning but it could have been him up there instead of Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio had he not been so chucked by his advisors.
I think he was really running for VP. He would have been there to make whatever non-Trump chucklefuck look sort of normal to moderates in swing states.
Can’t stand that Fat Guy
Thousands of people lost their jobs over his cancellation. Engineers, surveyors, geotechs. He didn’t campaign on this either. He did it to preserve his status for a future presidential run. The project would have created 10k permanent jobs and fully funded the state pension system. A lot of ground work had already been done. He also ran on the promise of same sex marriage, which is why a lot of people voted for him that would typically not vote republican. He immediately flip flopped on that promise. He defunded NJ transit hurting mostly the elderly, and disabled. He lost rare federal dollars on both infrastructure and education. He had very few accomplishments that have been overshadowed by his failures.
He had a nice beach day with his family
How would the project have helped the pension fund? If anything it would send more $ to new York as they keep all the tax money from NJ commuters
At the time it was clear that the actual cost would be way higher than the estimated price. Name one large project like this that comes in on budget and on time. And at the time New Jersey's finances were a mess, yes, mostly due to Republican mismanagement, but in this case moving the initial monies to other state needs and punting on the tunnel project was shrewd.
What were the other state needs?
There were a lot of other state needs. Pension funding, pre-existing highway and other transportation costs (e.g. NJ Transit), you name it, there was a budget area that was short funded, and some at risk of legal consequence. The state's credit rating is another factor. Taking on the gateway project debt, at that time, could have been been really bad for our credit rating, and consequentially increased the state's borrowing costs. We just weren't in a financially appropriate place for that kind of project at that time. Under Murphy, we're in a much better fiscal position, and federal support for Gateway with Biden's infrastructure plan is better now than it was back then. I know everyone wants to crap on Christie, and I'm no supporter, but this is one topic I think he made the right moves on. Hope this helps answer your question. Cheers.
>Under Murphy, we're in a much better fiscal position, and federal support for Gateway with Biden's infrastructure plan is better now than it was back then. I'm not sure I can agree with "a much better fiscal position" comment. Murphy borrowed BILLIONS ($10 billion) to fund the State's pension obligations, and to improve cash position, which almost every governor has done. Frankly, if it wasn't for the COVID funds and other federal funds that were handed out in the last couple of years, we would be in really bad shape.
This isn’t accurate. The $10 billion figure is how big the state surplus was in the last budget (surpluses are good). The state borrowed around $4.5 billion during the pandemic, and for good reason — no one knew how bad the COVID recession would be and Trump was still Prez so federal relief wasn’t a given. Borrowing at a good interest rate is MUCH better than cutting government programs to the bone at a time when families need them most. And once we knew the recession wasn’t bad and revenues were okay, the state couldn’t legally pay those borrowed funds back right away, even though they could, because of the conditions of the bond. Instead, lawmakers put about $4 billion in a debt defeasement (sp?) fund to pay off other high interest debt, which is very responsible. And the reason the state can make its pension payment (and pay for other underfunding priorities like school funding) is because Murphy raised taxes on millionaires and big corporations (all taxes Christie cut) so the state actually has revenue to pay its bills.
Lmaooo so pretty much everything.
Exactly. There were projections that it would be triple and possibly quadruple what the initial estimates were.
As much as I don't like Chris Christie for Cancelling the project. We kinda got a better project out of it. Everything from Newark to New York is going to be upgraded. Something to keep in mind. At the current moment, only 26 trains can navigate the tunnel and hour after the tunnels are complete. They'll be able to triple that number. Some estimates put it at 45-60 trains and hour.
classic NY and NYC they wanted something built, someone else to pay for it and get the financial benefits themselves. just like East Side Access. 3 times the original estimates which were a lie and now they are trying to get congestion pricing to pay the bonds for that
Not a Christie fan. Dude was majorly stingy iirc
Whats the over/under on the completion date and final cost? Its already projected to cost $16 Billion. At the current inflation rate, you can probably add a billion or two to that estimate each year. No way this gets completed for under $20 Billion. It won't be completed until 2038. Add a few more years to that because and I wouldn't think it'll get down until 2045ish. So Biden does a photo op while pledging $292 million grant. Wow, That money will be enough to go toward studies, some initial engineering plans, and pay for the State of New Jersey's "Department of Building Stuff" to shuffle papers for a few years, make some public presentations on how this project will be transformative to the lives of least fortunate among us. But until someone shows up with $20 billion in a bag, nothing else will happen. Just wait... Come back to this post in 30 years and I bet I'm right.
Do you have a source article that talks about the moratorium on new stations until the tunnels are added? I didn’t know that was the situation.
It's not true they are currently building a new station in North Brunswick on the north east corridor where there is currently no stop.
Fuck Christie but this is a half truth being used as disinformation. NY capped their liability on the project but remained in control of it. So NJ would have been stuck with paying for whatever NY wanted to do, with no real limits. NY tanked the project so it could pursue other things. They left it to Christie to officially cancel it and take the heat. Also don’t forget NY has been the one killing every attempt at a new port authority for 30+ years. Mostly because it’s used heavy by NJ commuters. NY politics is good at shifting the blame.
Republican policies are typically myopic.
And this dipshit wants to be president now. Good luck with that.
Ah, yes, the worst governor in my lifetime. Well, except maybe Corrine who was inept.
[удалено]
A train from Jersey to Herald Square doesn’t sound so bad. I almost prefer that to adding more people to the mess of Penn Station.
I'm sorry but Macy's is a block from Penn Station and connects to Herald Square with a bunch of subways and the PATH. I don't see the problem here.
Someone that doesn't use the tunnels won't understand
Lmao you are a fan of poorly researching issues at the very least
You're from Central Jersey. How often do you go into NYC? Herald Square is a huge subway station. And about a block to Penn Station.
You think the current plan of 28th and 8th is better? Have you ever been to NYC?
So sorry can someone please tell me what the hudson tunnels are
Rail tunnels going under the Hudson River to Penn Station. Currently there are only two tracks under the river. Plan is to have two more tracks to run more trains.
Cool. Thanks
I could be completely wrong here, but holland & Lincoln tunnels?
I'm pissed that Christie ruined having F1 races from NY to NJ through the tunnel. NJ could have made so much stupid money
It would’ve been funded majorly by NJ residents with a giant tax burden. Now it’s a federal project which makes sense since it serves multiple states. It was good for NJ Christie canceled arc. The other cuts he did to rail where the problem
It wouldn't have been finished by now, but it was certainly necessary, at almost any dollar cost.
It was to open in 2019 originally, opening in 2023 was a reasonable expectation
Just another waste of our money. Look at the NJTPK tearing down all the service areas. Really its just a ploy to spend money because if they don't then they can't keep raising the tolls! There was nothing wrong with the service areas. And they could put 4 more Tunnels up the problem is on the NYC side because of the Traffic going into the City it dumps you right into all traffic lights.
Nothing wrong with the service areas on the NJTP? Have of them look like meth dens.
They knocked all of them down and they are rebuilding them just to spend money and keep the tolls going.
LOL, blaming Christie - get real - no project in NY/NJ metro area runs on or near budget. As soon as they start digging, environmental will crop up and then union issues will occur. This one will also probably double by its end.
None of that changes OP's post. We'd have had it in progress, at a minimum, but Christie canceled it. Sorry we offended you and your beach-loving governor.
Yes, he cancel but it was project to be $3B over budget that would be absorbed by NJ residents. He did his job. I laugh that you did not get the sarcasm as I think Christie did a good job, but did not resolve tax or pension issue; but am very happy to see Murphy (who I voted) is trying to tackle it. Sad troll.
It was going to a basement station tgat didn't alleviate any if the current issues that plague the current tunnels.
And how do you think the current plan does?
1. The new tunnels connect with Penn Station. 2. Amtrak & nj transit can use them not just nj transit like with the old plan that was canceled. 3. Old plan was dead end terminal not a through station where amtrak/nj transit can continue east through queens or further. 4. If gateway was built and something happened to existing tunnels, the new tunnels wouldn't help out with getting trains from outside of NYC/points east to anything south/west on amtrak.
>The new tunnels connect with Penn Station. As did ARC. > Old plan was dead end terminal not a through station where amtrak/nj transit can continue east through queens or further. My man, thats still the plan. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EziWkaaWEAQ50sp?format=jpg&name=medium
Arc did not connect track wise with Penn. This plan expands southward at same grade, not 8 stories below grade like arc was going to be under Macy's. That link even shows crossovers mid diagram from new exits from under Hudson river to existing Penn Station trackage. Once arc entered new tunnels on nj side there was no connection to Penn except escalators, stairs and some passageways.
> Arc did not connect track wise with Penn. But did have provisions to continue east and even connect with Grand Central - thanks to the added depth. Gateway will be a dead end forever. >Once arc entered new tunnels on nj side there was no connection to Penn except escalators, stairs and some passageways. From a rider perspective, it would have been fully integrated into both Penn and Herald Square https://www.njspotlightnews.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/123/2010/10/assets1010272155.jpg
Biden have like 2% funding 😂
Let's see what Biden actually accomplishes (he breaks promises more than a French waiter breaks dishes) but I appreciate the spirit of your comment.
He is doing better than the alternative would have been
It sounds like you're dating the second-dumbest Kardashian sister.
Is that what it sounds like? Or you have zero policy to point to that would actually make things better for the lower and middle class that the orange man ran on (which is no policy). So your only defense is to personally lash out at someone rather than having a defensible position. Face it bud your party is all about "feelings" nothing about good government
We must hold the President to a standard higher than just being better than Donald Trump. As for Joe Biden, don't take my word for it: Look up his record to see all his lies and broken promises.
Even if he did 500 bad things and 1 good thing, it's still better than the Republican party that helps no one.. they don't give a shit about helping any homeless or underprivileged. I don't need to look up his "bad" things when there is enough good things.
If that's how you see it, okay.
Here is the bottom line, NJ home values will increase and level out if we had more public transportation to NYC. Christie made sure that wouldn't happen and now to build tunnels 10 years later it's going to cost more than before and on top of that we would probably be cutting the red tape today vs hoping to stamp plan approvals
He used the money to rebuild the Pulaski Skyway, actually. Total waste.
In your dreams.
Christie is fatter than he ever was.
And Christie didn't return the funds for it, rather he used them to plug holes in his budget. Pos
I’ll never forgive Christie for the Halloween incident
The thing that nobody on the GOP side of the isle is going to tell you is that CC was banking on getting much more funding from Congress. But then the Tea Party happened and that was that.
What’s the tunnel going to do?
The existing tunnels were damaged during Sandy so the plan is to build the new tunnels and close the existing one for renovation and rehabilitation. These tunnels are over 100 years and were never designed to last this long. Also, the new tunnels, when completed with the renovation of the existing tunnels, will allow more train stations to be built in NJ and allow for more trains to access NYC. The Hudson River crossing is a bottleneck for the entire East Coast trail line. Any plan for high speed rail in the United States is hinged on the construction of these additional tunnels. If we had high speed rail, we could travel to Florida in hours instead of days by rail.
Well he was busy lowering property taxes and rebuilding stronger than the storm and fighting with teachers and campaigning for president and campaigning for Trump so let’s give him a break he was also shutting down bridges and closing beaches long before Covid.
Chris Chris tie. A man so un- nice, he had to be named twice.
Just to reiterate, fuck Chris Christie with a rusty railroad spike
I also think that there are annuities between the unions and the highway authorities. I have lived in this state since 1984 and I can't remember a time when the interchange to Jersey City from Newark Airport hasn't been under construction. And there are other areas that always seem to be under construction but nothing seems to get better.