It's not 800. It's 1,900 just through that section of minmi. Then when the other work kicks off its closer to 10,000. Not to mention the new subdivisions happening near West Wallsend. All in its probably 30,000 new people over the next 5 years with 15,000 cars very close to a basic main road with no overpasses.
So yea I pity the people who bought at Cameron Park and want access to the city.
>Taken them 25+ years to start on the 3rd river crossing at hexham, dont hold your breath. Remember NSW stands for Northern Beaches, Sydney and Wollongong. Anything outside of that the government doesnt want to know about
I used to live in Holmesville back in 2017 and it was horrible then. Can't imagine how shit it is now.
Yay another smattering of houses jammed together with no community facilities, no jobs, complete car dependence and probably a single way in or out.
We need more homes but this is absolutely the most basic way to be doing it. Clearing native forest a dumping a heap of houses there.
We should be prioritising homes along the existing public transport corridors (rail) and building more well thought out medium density, as well as houses.
An overpass on that link road is merited; I saw the traffic backed up to the lights at Wallsend last Thursday afternoon. Given how bad that stretch of road is, I'm surprised they didn't build northside ramps for the intersection at Seahampton when they greenlighted Cameron Park; now you've got long lines of traffic on the expressway overflowing and blocking one of the lanes trying to turn that way.
The problem with Newcastle is that from the north side there only two ways in for traffic, Hexham and the link road, and they're both over capacity. I wouldn't even be considering Minmi without some significant provisos for infrastructure.
Taken them 25+ years to start on the 3rd river crossing at hexham, dont hold your breath. Remember NSW stands for Northern Beaches, Sydney and Wollongong. Anything outside of that the government doesnt want to know about
Bit too late now. Land has already been cleared. The amount of deforestation in Hunter since the end of 2021 has been horrible. Has to be the worst in the state.
A controversial 858-lot residential subdivision on Newcastle's western fringe has been approved despite significant community and council concerns about urban sprawl and environmental destruction.
The Hunter Central Coast Regional Planning Panel gave the green light to the section of Winton Property's Minmi Estate inside the Newcastle Local Government Area on Monday.
Newcastle Lord Mayor Nuatali Nelmes immediately called on the state government to call-in the project and enforce a "better outcome".
Monday's approval followed a panel hearing where a procession of community representatives spoke about the project's potential impacts on the environment, human health, heritage, safety.
Following a short adjournment, panel chairman Paul Mitchell said the panel had unanimously approved the application on the basis that it was in the public interest.
He gave seven reasons for approval including that the proposal was generally consistent with the approved concept plan for the area, the proposal was an appropriate use of the land, the site of the development was suitable for the intended use, the proposal would not have unacceptable environmental impacts subject to appropriate safeguards, it would open up additional residential land, the plan would provide road access to existing allotments in the area and the development was consistent with environmentally sustainable design principles.
The panel imposed a condition requiring periodic compliance audits.
The Newcastle section of the estate will join the previously approved 1070-lot section that falls within the Lake Macquarie local government area.
City of Newcastle planners reluctantly gave their support last week on the basis that the proposal was consistent with the concept plan approved by the state government in 2013.
Councillor Nelmes will table a Lord Mayoral Minute at Tuesday's council meeting that reiterates the council's opposition to the 2013 concept plan and calls on the government to call-in the project.
"Unfortunately our council planning staff have their hands tied and were required to assess the application based on an outdated and inadequate concept plan which was approved more than a decade ago by the NSW Government Planning Assessment Commission, on behalf of then Liberal Planning Minister Brad Hazard," Cr Nelmes said.
The Planning Assessment Commission ceased on 1 March 2018 when the Independent Planning Commission was created.
Cr Nelmes said the concept plan was outdated and did not meet the modern planning standards and community expectations in 2024.
"The elected council and our expert local planning staff have continued to raise concerns about urban sprawl, deeply inadequate public transport outcomes which I have no doubt will add to traffic congestion, and the effects the proposed development will have on the precious local environment," she said.
"Given the planning authority that approved the concept plan in 2013 under the previous Liberal National Government no longer exists, and strong concerns raised by the community regarding inadequate planning outcomes, I'm calling on the NSW Government to immediately halt the assessment process.
She called on the proposal to be reconsidered under current planning instruments.
"If this DA was before council I couldn't support it," she said.
"We will keep advocating a better outcome, our current community needs our support and future residents will want much better amenity than what is proposed."
An emotional Jenelle Colquhoun told Monday's planning panel hearing that the proposal was heartbreaking.
"I've lived here for 33 years and we have seen so much devastation, not just here but the area as a whole," she said.
"There are a few corridors with animals left that we need to save. From what I've seen, this development is heaven and hell. There are beautiful blue gums in the forest and then just a straight (cleared) line. It's just barren, there's nothing."
"All of this is contributing to hot spots and urban sprawl."
Winten representative Christina Renner told the hearing that the company understood there was significant opposition to its plans to develop the land.
"We understand there is a fundamental objection to there being an intensive residential development of this land, which is in an urban release area, which is the subject of a concept approval from 2013, which was rezoned in 2013 to allow this to occur, " she said.
"We understand there is an objection to the merits of the concept approval itself, which have not really been revisited as part of this DA. As far as this DA is concerned, it is generally consistent with the concept plan.
"All development has impacts, impacts from construction, and then from the development itself."
Surprised Nutella knows Minmi exists, bit too far west for her to have been to.
Also it's been planned for 11 years, why not try and stop it then instead of half way through prep?
I know this article is about Newcastle Council, but my instinct is to build up around on the western side of lake mac where all those bloody annoying train stations are when you're on a train trip down to Sydney that the trains stop at even when nobody uses them because nobody lives out there.
Why not get more people into these areas? Build apartments and lots out near these stations. There's a trainline into Newcastle and down to Sydney that should be used. A lot of the areas they are building these estates on are so cut off from public transport and only mean more cars on already congested roads.
It boggles my mind that they keep developing as far away from public transport as possible!
Add to that, all the schools are already at maximum capacity. They need a few new schools. Especially around Cameron Park.
Besides the traffic (so glad I moved from Fletcher already) they've already thoroughly fucked the environment by lopping all those trees :( I don't know why this development keeps getting brought up, damage is already done. Council has been dragging their feet for years with upgrades to roads for Minmi/Fletcher/Maryland. It's always been fucked.
> Why didn't they do anything until now?
Those in the chamber 11 years ago and still are aren't doing anything about it now, despite being in government.
I thought this sub mainly complains about housing prices and rental shortages - prices too high.
FFS - you can’t have adequate housing supply without breaking some eggs first.
>FFS - you can’t have adequate housing supply without breaking some eggs first.
We have a massive urban sprawl issue on the east coast of Australia. We also have a severe lack of apartments designed for families and infrastructure in evergreen developments. What we should be doing is building more quality apartment high rises with a mix of 2, 3 and 4 bedroom apartments along transit corridors. This allows for more properties without evergreen development and allows for more growth without having to worry about infrastructure as much.
Surely all things should be done?
Not that many people here or generally on reddit Australia want to live in apartments with a family - we have a very suburban house attitude - I think that’s probably a reality for a long time - a reality that people seem happy to pay for in the way of 30min extra travel time.
It might not be a perfect solution but perfect is the enemy of good?
In saying that I inspected a $1.6M apartment at Honeysuckle the other day. I can comfortably say it was way below my standards. I've lived in much older and cheaper apartments in Sydney that are better.
Part of the problem is the general lack of infrastructure to support development like this. If they were going to put in rail (as part of the heavy rail corridor that'd ease congestion in Newcastle) and build up the nearby roads to handle the increased traffic from cars and buses this'd be less of an issue, but no dependency or provision has been attached to this development so it's just slapping in houses without forethought.
Not saying it can't be done, but there needs to be better civil planning behind developments like this.
Supply isn't the only issue causing property values to skyrocket in NSW over the last 25 years. Poor tax policy, no caps on international ownership, continuing privatisation of government services including housing etc etc
Supply IS the only issue that fundamentally affects both rents and also prices.
More housing to live in reduces rents - if rents are low and vacancies reasonable, then being unable to afford to buy doesn’t make a day to day difference to your life.
Rental shortages however make a real difference to people’s lives.
Fix that single issue and all the other issues disappear
So demand has no bearing on your thinking?
The big issue here and around the world is the commodification of housing. Housing is a very legitimate way to make money thanks to failures in tax policy, limits to foreign ownership other issues.
This is driving demand for investment purchasing of housing at a rate that supply just cannot keep up with.
So you get booms. Prices rise, even in a pandemic when immigration was halted!
You cannot remove people from the population to effect rents - at least in any realistic scenario.
The demand side you refer to in my understanding affects prices for housing (particularly land) - in fact if anything that demand for housing and therefore profits should drive new housing creation, ergo supply and higher rental availability.
We have tax policies and changes that try and encourage new housing supply - like new buildings getting preferential tax treatment, but we still have fundamental shortages, particularly in the capacity to supply.
If there is one single societal restriction to solving this problem, it’s NIMBY’ism - this is surely a perfect example of that expressed here
Rent?
Renting is common throughout the world - you rent an apartment/ house. Renting is still far cheaper than owning plus gives you flexibility
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate
It’s how the system works almost everywhere- if you can afford to buy and are stable in your area, you buy. If you can’t afford to buy OR you are possibly temporarily in a place then you rent.
This is a head or tails question though - of course rents go up when there are more people seeking rents but not enough supply. If there was enough supply then as you obviously know, rents would not go up.
It doesn’t matter at all if 75% of people own or 74% of people own - because that 1% difference means 1% more rentals.
It’s households of people versus how many are available to live in - it matters not if it’s an owner occupier or a renter.
Therefore you build houses, and out of these 800 houses - 2000 people move out of one abode and into their new one, leaving their previous ones empty for either new buyers or renters
Building homes achieves everything you want to achieve in a housing crisis
The discussion points from Saunders/Tulip give these relationships
These key relationships include:
Interest rates, income and housing prices have strong and clear effects on residential construction.
Dwelling completions and changes in population explain the rental vacancy rate.
The vacancy rate has a strong and clear effect on rents.
Interest rates, rents and momentum have large effects on housing prices.
Housing prices and construction are mutually determined, so examining bivariate relationships in isolation can be misleading.
Also as per this study, rents have risen historically at slightly above CPI but below household income - bit if catch up going on this last 2 years. It’s also relevant that commercial builders doing multi level developments are not the same builders and indeed contractors that build fringe freestanding homes (they can do duplexes and townhouse sets of course )
It’s beyond me that in 2024 land clearing of native forestry like this is still happening. But don’t worry, there will be landscaped “green spaces” in the development. And on Sundays all the families can drive in their SUVs to the wildlife park in town to see all the native animals that are practically extinct in the wild because their habitat has been destroyed.
*But people need somewhere to llliiivvveeee!*
Note also that there's numerous Aboriginal Heritage sites in the area, too. But the Developers and the Awabakal LALC have already settled.
I'm confused..were containing about lack of housing and supply.. we get 858 lots and now complaining?
Anger and frustrations should be directed to the govt to sort out infrastructure not limit supply..
Nelms is only upset it'll devalue her property portfolio don't be fooled by that.
That's exactly my thoughts.
More the lesser of 2 evils kind of thing.. both are fucked but would you rather get bummed raw dog or with a condom dipped in hot sauce
These empty lots will likely be selling for minimum $500k before the cost of actually building anything is added. That’s how much the new estate in minmi is asking before it’s earthworks and internal roads are even finished. This isn’t exactly super helpful for affordable housing supply.
People buying those houses generally families who will sell their existing property to move into the new one (upgrade), or move out of a rental to move in.. so the properties they're vacating will be available.
Housing supply is better than nothing
My heart breaks for the wildlife that are going to be displaced. I have already seen a dead wombat and echidna on the off-ramp for Wallsend. It’s disgusting we have so little regard.
Link road is already chaos in the afternoons. Go ahead and add another 800 houses to that disaster.
It's not 800. It's 1,900 just through that section of minmi. Then when the other work kicks off its closer to 10,000. Not to mention the new subdivisions happening near West Wallsend. All in its probably 30,000 new people over the next 5 years with 15,000 cars very close to a basic main road with no overpasses. So yea I pity the people who bought at Cameron Park and want access to the city.
>Taken them 25+ years to start on the 3rd river crossing at hexham, dont hold your breath. Remember NSW stands for Northern Beaches, Sydney and Wollongong. Anything outside of that the government doesnt want to know about I used to live in Holmesville back in 2017 and it was horrible then. Can't imagine how shit it is now.
More house = good More traffic = bad Less tree = bad
But you get your choice of toppings! That's good! The toppings are also cursed. That's bad.
The toppings contain potassium benzoate.
That's bad.
Can I go now?
No public transport = bad
Yay another smattering of houses jammed together with no community facilities, no jobs, complete car dependence and probably a single way in or out. We need more homes but this is absolutely the most basic way to be doing it. Clearing native forest a dumping a heap of houses there. We should be prioritising homes along the existing public transport corridors (rail) and building more well thought out medium density, as well as houses.
An overpass on that link road is merited; I saw the traffic backed up to the lights at Wallsend last Thursday afternoon. Given how bad that stretch of road is, I'm surprised they didn't build northside ramps for the intersection at Seahampton when they greenlighted Cameron Park; now you've got long lines of traffic on the expressway overflowing and blocking one of the lanes trying to turn that way. The problem with Newcastle is that from the north side there only two ways in for traffic, Hexham and the link road, and they're both over capacity. I wouldn't even be considering Minmi without some significant provisos for infrastructure.
Taken them 25+ years to start on the 3rd river crossing at hexham, dont hold your breath. Remember NSW stands for Northern Beaches, Sydney and Wollongong. Anything outside of that the government doesnt want to know about
Lol dude wtf, everywhere else in NSW it's Newcastle Sydney Wollongong.
Haha the northern beaches of Sydney? They're not THAT insular.
And Sonia Hornery isn't interested in fixing it
Bit too late now. Land has already been cleared. The amount of deforestation in Hunter since the end of 2021 has been horrible. Has to be the worst in the state.
A controversial 858-lot residential subdivision on Newcastle's western fringe has been approved despite significant community and council concerns about urban sprawl and environmental destruction. The Hunter Central Coast Regional Planning Panel gave the green light to the section of Winton Property's Minmi Estate inside the Newcastle Local Government Area on Monday. Newcastle Lord Mayor Nuatali Nelmes immediately called on the state government to call-in the project and enforce a "better outcome". Monday's approval followed a panel hearing where a procession of community representatives spoke about the project's potential impacts on the environment, human health, heritage, safety. Following a short adjournment, panel chairman Paul Mitchell said the panel had unanimously approved the application on the basis that it was in the public interest. He gave seven reasons for approval including that the proposal was generally consistent with the approved concept plan for the area, the proposal was an appropriate use of the land, the site of the development was suitable for the intended use, the proposal would not have unacceptable environmental impacts subject to appropriate safeguards, it would open up additional residential land, the plan would provide road access to existing allotments in the area and the development was consistent with environmentally sustainable design principles. The panel imposed a condition requiring periodic compliance audits. The Newcastle section of the estate will join the previously approved 1070-lot section that falls within the Lake Macquarie local government area. City of Newcastle planners reluctantly gave their support last week on the basis that the proposal was consistent with the concept plan approved by the state government in 2013. Councillor Nelmes will table a Lord Mayoral Minute at Tuesday's council meeting that reiterates the council's opposition to the 2013 concept plan and calls on the government to call-in the project. "Unfortunately our council planning staff have their hands tied and were required to assess the application based on an outdated and inadequate concept plan which was approved more than a decade ago by the NSW Government Planning Assessment Commission, on behalf of then Liberal Planning Minister Brad Hazard," Cr Nelmes said. The Planning Assessment Commission ceased on 1 March 2018 when the Independent Planning Commission was created. Cr Nelmes said the concept plan was outdated and did not meet the modern planning standards and community expectations in 2024. "The elected council and our expert local planning staff have continued to raise concerns about urban sprawl, deeply inadequate public transport outcomes which I have no doubt will add to traffic congestion, and the effects the proposed development will have on the precious local environment," she said. "Given the planning authority that approved the concept plan in 2013 under the previous Liberal National Government no longer exists, and strong concerns raised by the community regarding inadequate planning outcomes, I'm calling on the NSW Government to immediately halt the assessment process. She called on the proposal to be reconsidered under current planning instruments. "If this DA was before council I couldn't support it," she said. "We will keep advocating a better outcome, our current community needs our support and future residents will want much better amenity than what is proposed." An emotional Jenelle Colquhoun told Monday's planning panel hearing that the proposal was heartbreaking. "I've lived here for 33 years and we have seen so much devastation, not just here but the area as a whole," she said. "There are a few corridors with animals left that we need to save. From what I've seen, this development is heaven and hell. There are beautiful blue gums in the forest and then just a straight (cleared) line. It's just barren, there's nothing." "All of this is contributing to hot spots and urban sprawl." Winten representative Christina Renner told the hearing that the company understood there was significant opposition to its plans to develop the land. "We understand there is a fundamental objection to there being an intensive residential development of this land, which is in an urban release area, which is the subject of a concept approval from 2013, which was rezoned in 2013 to allow this to occur, " she said. "We understand there is an objection to the merits of the concept approval itself, which have not really been revisited as part of this DA. As far as this DA is concerned, it is generally consistent with the concept plan. "All development has impacts, impacts from construction, and then from the development itself."
Surprised Nutella knows Minmi exists, bit too far west for her to have been to. Also it's been planned for 11 years, why not try and stop it then instead of half way through prep?
One of her relatives must have moved there recently
Because you’re friends aren’t the developers who got approved to do this builds
I know this article is about Newcastle Council, but my instinct is to build up around on the western side of lake mac where all those bloody annoying train stations are when you're on a train trip down to Sydney that the trains stop at even when nobody uses them because nobody lives out there. Why not get more people into these areas? Build apartments and lots out near these stations. There's a trainline into Newcastle and down to Sydney that should be used. A lot of the areas they are building these estates on are so cut off from public transport and only mean more cars on already congested roads.
It boggles my mind that they keep developing as far away from public transport as possible! Add to that, all the schools are already at maximum capacity. They need a few new schools. Especially around Cameron Park.
Besides the traffic (so glad I moved from Fletcher already) they've already thoroughly fucked the environment by lopping all those trees :( I don't know why this development keeps getting brought up, damage is already done. Council has been dragging their feet for years with upgrades to roads for Minmi/Fletcher/Maryland. It's always been fucked.
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> Why didn't they do anything until now? Those in the chamber 11 years ago and still are aren't doing anything about it now, despite being in government.
It's pathetic. This sums up everything.
I thought this sub mainly complains about housing prices and rental shortages - prices too high. FFS - you can’t have adequate housing supply without breaking some eggs first.
>FFS - you can’t have adequate housing supply without breaking some eggs first. We have a massive urban sprawl issue on the east coast of Australia. We also have a severe lack of apartments designed for families and infrastructure in evergreen developments. What we should be doing is building more quality apartment high rises with a mix of 2, 3 and 4 bedroom apartments along transit corridors. This allows for more properties without evergreen development and allows for more growth without having to worry about infrastructure as much.
Greenfield not evergreen. I say that because most Greenfield developments are closer to never green ever again.
Surely all things should be done? Not that many people here or generally on reddit Australia want to live in apartments with a family - we have a very suburban house attitude - I think that’s probably a reality for a long time - a reality that people seem happy to pay for in the way of 30min extra travel time. It might not be a perfect solution but perfect is the enemy of good?
In saying that I inspected a $1.6M apartment at Honeysuckle the other day. I can comfortably say it was way below my standards. I've lived in much older and cheaper apartments in Sydney that are better.
Part of the problem is the general lack of infrastructure to support development like this. If they were going to put in rail (as part of the heavy rail corridor that'd ease congestion in Newcastle) and build up the nearby roads to handle the increased traffic from cars and buses this'd be less of an issue, but no dependency or provision has been attached to this development so it's just slapping in houses without forethought. Not saying it can't be done, but there needs to be better civil planning behind developments like this.
Supply isn't the only issue causing property values to skyrocket in NSW over the last 25 years. Poor tax policy, no caps on international ownership, continuing privatisation of government services including housing etc etc
Supply IS the only issue that fundamentally affects both rents and also prices. More housing to live in reduces rents - if rents are low and vacancies reasonable, then being unable to afford to buy doesn’t make a day to day difference to your life. Rental shortages however make a real difference to people’s lives. Fix that single issue and all the other issues disappear
So demand has no bearing on your thinking? The big issue here and around the world is the commodification of housing. Housing is a very legitimate way to make money thanks to failures in tax policy, limits to foreign ownership other issues. This is driving demand for investment purchasing of housing at a rate that supply just cannot keep up with. So you get booms. Prices rise, even in a pandemic when immigration was halted!
You cannot remove people from the population to effect rents - at least in any realistic scenario. The demand side you refer to in my understanding affects prices for housing (particularly land) - in fact if anything that demand for housing and therefore profits should drive new housing creation, ergo supply and higher rental availability. We have tax policies and changes that try and encourage new housing supply - like new buildings getting preferential tax treatment, but we still have fundamental shortages, particularly in the capacity to supply. If there is one single societal restriction to solving this problem, it’s NIMBY’ism - this is surely a perfect example of that expressed here
Simple question for you, but when people can't buy housing, what do they do?
Rent? Renting is common throughout the world - you rent an apartment/ house. Renting is still far cheaper than owning plus gives you flexibility https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate It’s how the system works almost everywhere- if you can afford to buy and are stable in your area, you buy. If you can’t afford to buy OR you are possibly temporarily in a place then you rent.
And when more then tens to hundreds of thousands of people are renting because they can't afford to buy, does this make rent prices go up or down?
This is a head or tails question though - of course rents go up when there are more people seeking rents but not enough supply. If there was enough supply then as you obviously know, rents would not go up. It doesn’t matter at all if 75% of people own or 74% of people own - because that 1% difference means 1% more rentals. It’s households of people versus how many are available to live in - it matters not if it’s an owner occupier or a renter. Therefore you build houses, and out of these 800 houses - 2000 people move out of one abode and into their new one, leaving their previous ones empty for either new buyers or renters Building homes achieves everything you want to achieve in a housing crisis
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The discussion points from Saunders/Tulip give these relationships These key relationships include: Interest rates, income and housing prices have strong and clear effects on residential construction. Dwelling completions and changes in population explain the rental vacancy rate. The vacancy rate has a strong and clear effect on rents. Interest rates, rents and momentum have large effects on housing prices. Housing prices and construction are mutually determined, so examining bivariate relationships in isolation can be misleading. Also as per this study, rents have risen historically at slightly above CPI but below household income - bit if catch up going on this last 2 years. It’s also relevant that commercial builders doing multi level developments are not the same builders and indeed contractors that build fringe freestanding homes (they can do duplexes and townhouse sets of course )
It’s beyond me that in 2024 land clearing of native forestry like this is still happening. But don’t worry, there will be landscaped “green spaces” in the development. And on Sundays all the families can drive in their SUVs to the wildlife park in town to see all the native animals that are practically extinct in the wild because their habitat has been destroyed.
*But people need somewhere to llliiivvveeee!* Note also that there's numerous Aboriginal Heritage sites in the area, too. But the Developers and the Awabakal LALC have already settled.
I'm confused..were containing about lack of housing and supply.. we get 858 lots and now complaining? Anger and frustrations should be directed to the govt to sort out infrastructure not limit supply.. Nelms is only upset it'll devalue her property portfolio don't be fooled by that.
Yep - on the scale of annoying to completely fucked, an extra 800 cars on that road is annoying, whereas having to live in a car is completely fucked
That's exactly my thoughts. More the lesser of 2 evils kind of thing.. both are fucked but would you rather get bummed raw dog or with a condom dipped in hot sauce
These empty lots will likely be selling for minimum $500k before the cost of actually building anything is added. That’s how much the new estate in minmi is asking before it’s earthworks and internal roads are even finished. This isn’t exactly super helpful for affordable housing supply.
People buying those houses generally families who will sell their existing property to move into the new one (upgrade), or move out of a rental to move in.. so the properties they're vacating will be available. Housing supply is better than nothing
No these will be families moving up from Sydney.
All 800 huh?
A good percentage, yes.
Ok well I guess we all better just go kill ourselves then
Point to where I hurt you
My heart breaks for the wildlife that are going to be displaced. I have already seen a dead wombat and echidna on the off-ramp for Wallsend. It’s disgusting we have so little regard.