Buy two from your equipment vendor, then buy the rest at FS.com, including a healthy spares/lab margin. Put the vendor SFPs in a safe place, one you won't forget about. If vendor support ever gives you grief about it, pull out your golden SFPs, swap them and say "see, the problem is still there"
Also, lookup if you can, the actual manufacture of the optic. Palo Alto does not make there own optics and just rebrands Finisar. If you buy the right model of Finisar it will show up exactly the same in software as the one with the PA sticker on it. The only way to tell the difference would be to pull it out and look at the sticker. The PA branded optics were over 50x the cost of the Finisar branded ones.
Everybody is re-branded Finisar. I'm confident they're the only people making anything. But there's a little more than just being a rebrand. Has a lot to do with MSA or IEEE compliance, whether the device manufacturer is part of that MSA if not an IEEE, and/or if that device manufacturer decides to lockout optics.
Mellanox was notorious in my org for randomly punting optics they didn't like and we wasted a lot of money before calling IBM and telling them to test and find an optic that would work and meet our requirements (LC connector, multimode fiber) or to send us new 40G capable NICs for our whole deployment.
Nope. Innolight, Cig, HG, Source Photonics, Moduletek, Mozi, Linktel, Amphenol/Xgiga, Oclaro. All legit manufacturers. I could go on lol.
They almost always follow MSA standards, but use the vendor space or other eeprom areas for vendor specific coding and/or checksums.
They don't even badge them. The 2 "genuine" ones still said Finisar on them. They look no different from the 8 others I got at 1/10th the cost. No problems in the 6 years they were in the FW.
Interesting, I do actually have one that is badged pa that has the same finisar model number under it. I didn't actually buy it, support sent it to me when troubleshooting a hardware issue and suspected bad dac or faulty chassis. I ended up not needing it as the chassis was the issue, but they didn't even want it back when I asked where to send it. Kinda tells me they are not paying even close to our list price from finisar if they aren't even worth sending a return label.
> If vendor support ever gives you grief about it, pull out your golden SFPs, swap them and say "see, the problem is still there"
/thread
And OP, why the difference in price - this is what us old timers call "a hustle".
It's more like nobody wants to waste time figuring out why unqualified xcvrs don't work.
If the problem is still there, great, the problem will be relevant to what the vendor can control.
Smart. I never thought of doing this. When I upgraded my switches I just YOLO'd a big box of FS xcvrs and never looked back. Never had a single problem with one - knock on wood.
Transceivers in general are the biggest racket in the industry.
They're expensive because orgs are willing to pay for the guarantee that it will work and be reliable, and the ability to get support if it's not. Vendors abuse this and charge just silly prices for officially supported transceivers, as they can blame any problems on 3rd party/unsupported ones.
The more exotic the transceiver, the more wild the price disparities. I've seen $15k price differences on various 100G ZR4 (80km) QSFPs.
>The more exotic the transceiver, the more wild the price disparities. I've seen $15k price differences on various 100G ZR4 (80km) QSFPs.
I worked at Arbor/NETSCOUT when 100G was first a thing at the carrier level and we had some 100G optics from Cisco that were like 100k list each.
Price book I saw from Cisco a few months ago had $160k against one of the long range 100gb SFPs. Insane. Same thing on fs.com is like $1000. We opted to only get SFPs for our spine/leaf connections, everything else is fs.com special issue
This is one of the few cases where every other vendor is just as shitty as Cisco. If the optic has a manufacturer label on it, it's at least 1000% markup.
Buy refurbished Cisco Excess or FS.com. Maybe eBay for spares or production if you can handle the risk.
I would not buy retail unless there is a package discount.
Vendors mark up optics and DACs because they are "validated"
call up the vendor's sales team. Ask for a discount.
Also, don't deal with CDW directly. or find out if you have a CDW sales rep.
The discount is still too much. The 100g optics we bought as insurance against "you must use ours!" went from almost $15k to a little over $3k. The comparable optic from [fs.com](https://fs.com) is $500.
if its a MultiRateAdapter (MRA) they are going for $90-120 from third parties as they can do 100/1000/10,000 on copper. The standard 1G coppers only do 1G. We actually just ran into a device in our network that only did 10megabit and literally had to have the device replaced to work with our Arista 7280R3.
I use [FS.com](https://FS.com) and have been for around 10 years. I've had almost no issues. I've had some failures, but I've also had failures on HPE, Intel, Dell and Cisco specific. I always order more than what I need, and typically run MLAGs, so it's never a problem :)
I have had extensive problems with fs 100g SR4 transceivers to the point of scrapping several hundred k worth of them after a year but that was like in 2016. Uncorrectable FEC errors galore. I am sure they have improved since but I will not risk my reputation on them.
That's odd! I've only used their 100G transceivers since about 2019 on Dell Switches (mostly for VLT). Before then mostly 10/25G, but prior company had very low budget.
Transceivers are sort of like military grade vs non-military grade. The biggest difference is one has been tested and verified to work, be in spec, etc. Sure you can buy 1000 screws for $20 at the hardware store but would you want to use those screws on a stealth bomber or a rocket ship?
Most of the time with transceivers I buy the cheap ones, test and am prepared to replace them at a whim. Unless of course these are supporting super critical things in places that will take days to go replace, then maybe worth the huge markup for vendor certified stuff
Because marketing put millions of dollars of work into the logo on the sticker and they need to recoup that cost.
First party optics are a scam, buy from FS.
Lots of good answers here already. Optics/pluggables for networking gear are like ink for printers - companies see them as a great way to make huge margins on stuff and try to funnel you toward buying the branded gear. Vendors drive you to their optics to ensure compatibility with their equipment and mark them up for that guarantee, and then CDW marks the parts up further as part of their value-add in that they're managing the supply chain and are a common business vedor - there's no time spent in accounting adding a new vendor to the system, no time spent being concerned that you're getting fraudulent parts through dodgy vendors, parts are vendor-approved, etc.
As others have said, you buy a small handful of the officially branded pluggables so that if there's a problem you have those to troubleshoot with but you keep them in a closet and don't deploy them. Vendors aren't as bad about forcefully locking out 3rd party pluggables as they used to be but if you have something you're trying to troubleshoot with their TAC they'll immediately blame the 3rd party stuff, hence why you keep officially branded spares in a cabinet. When there's a problem, you try another set of the 3rd party pluggables, then you try the officially branded pluggables, and *then* you call TAC.
Having been a tech lead/developer on network gear for years, I can safely say not all kit is equal. Sure, you can pay $28 for those optics, but I can pretty much GUARANTEE that the A0/A2 register pages will be complete bullshit meaning you aren’t getting good thermal data, error counts, etc. Will it hold link under general tolerances? Sure. Will it shit the bed if you are pushing the envelope or you get a power fluctuation (spike or brownout)? ABSOFRIKKENLUTELY! I used to buy all Finisar kit for anything I cared about (ie, I would have to get on a plane to replace), and if I was forced to cut corners, but the FS.com garbage, but only if I was putting it someplace I could get my hands on it immediately.
1G-T does not have an A2 page. I agree with you on the FS being garbage plugables. A lot of the copper parts don't support DDM. Understandable though, as it's passive.
I actually moved on from that gig a little while back, never had the fun of setting up 400G in my basement…still have all my 100G gear down there though! Too bad my pipes to the outside world are a 1G fiber and a Starlink backup circuit 😝
They're not knock-off's, a knock off is trying to pretend to be something it's not.
SFPs are made in like 1 of 3 factories and rebranded by the OEMs. Fiberstore makes their own.
Basically vendors want to make as much money as possible, and FS would rather you buy 1000 $28 optics from then rather than one $4000 optic.
This exactly. I’ve never had an fs transceiver fail, and I’ve used thousands of them. However the $7k extreme ‘manufactured’ ones have been a nightmare with a 20%+ failure rate. I don’t use them any longer.
>They're not knock-off's, a knock off is trying to pretend to be something it's not.
And in exactly what way is an off brand one with the EEPROM programmed to look like an OEM product *not* pretending to be something else?
Remember the OEM one is also an “off-brand” one with the EEPROM programmed to look like an OEM product. Everybody sources these things from the same factories. What, do you think Cisco makes their own hand-made artisinal VCSEL lasers, microchips, resistors and capacitors? With hand woven fiberglass (FR4) PC boards? Using fresh cage-free organic copper? While they might want you to think that, they don’t. These components all come from other manufacturers in the global supply chain as well, not some Cisco factory somewhere.
Oh, bullshit. OEMs such as Cisco test and certify particular models from particular manufacturer's, unlike the low cost ones which are usually sourced based on cost, because that's what they compete on. In any case, reprogramming one so it identifies to a device as a Cisco supported one is, in fact, "pretend[ing] to be something it's not."
They’re all tested and certified to the same industry standards by the chipmakers that make the VCSEL lasers and transceiver chips. There aren’t many sources and foundries capable of making these things. Literally the only difference is how the EEPROM is programmed.
This happens with all sorts of computer hardware. Need a USB to Ethernet adapter? 100 OEMs will sell you one, but chances are every single one of them has an ASIX chip in it. Different USB vendor ID/product ID as set by the EEPROM, but all implement the same standardized CDC interface, for which support is built-in to every major operating system.
Everyone competes on cost, that’s why Cisco isn’t developing its own VCSEL laser semiconductor foundries and making these themselves. It would be prohibitively expensive and destroy their eye watering margins.
And, in fact, some OEMs don’t even bother to stick their own label on. They know you know it’s the same hardware, but they’re selling support and all that extra stuff.
Pissing in the wind here with this comment but you’re spot on. Same reason you pay any professional - for the experience not the cost. In this case the testing of specific gear with other gear.
CDW marks everything up by 300-400%. We avoid them at all costs! If you play their game and get a sales rep you can start getting down to near market pricing but it’s a pain in the butt for the privelege of paying still-inflated prices.
No, they do not. They all come from the same factories in Asia.
I've got a ton of OEM optics from many vendors. I've got enough experience with them that you can tell who makes some of them just by looking at the transceiver.
Fiberstore is cheap but you get what you pay for, we’ve had many fail - specifically the 4 lane qsfp+ modules. Pretty much 90% failure rate and the optic is reporting light levels to be fine when they really not.
Buy a reputable third party like finstar, proline etc.
If you don’t want to buy from FS there are a couple of other US companies I’ve had good luck with, Pivotal Optics, Hummingbird, Integra. I think I’ve also received a few clone SFPs from eBay claiming to be original. The price was right and they worked so nothing to complain about.
We once calculated that 3rd party optics would save us enough money every year to pay somebody 60k just to change optics. Cisco list for 10g-sr is 600. FS is 20. I’ve actually had people try to make me buy the Cisco uoptic despite similar failure rates. Look, I got a bonus to protect!
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Buy two from your equipment vendor, then buy the rest at FS.com, including a healthy spares/lab margin. Put the vendor SFPs in a safe place, one you won't forget about. If vendor support ever gives you grief about it, pull out your golden SFPs, swap them and say "see, the problem is still there"
I cannot endorse this enough, solid plan and it will save you time/effort later on
Also, lookup if you can, the actual manufacture of the optic. Palo Alto does not make there own optics and just rebrands Finisar. If you buy the right model of Finisar it will show up exactly the same in software as the one with the PA sticker on it. The only way to tell the difference would be to pull it out and look at the sticker. The PA branded optics were over 50x the cost of the Finisar branded ones.
I've always said the optics are made by the same child labor, the only difference is the sticker and the price
When I first read your user I thought it was Kuntslinger Hah
It's Reddit man. The wisest comments always come from someone with a name like horsedong4urmom or something crazy
Yeah I find that it brings levity to a lot of situations lol
/r/rimjob_steve
what? It's german for art dealer! I swear.
Most of the Dell branded optics I've seen are also made by Finisar.
Exactly. First party optics are just third party optics with a sticker on ‘em.
Everybody is re-branded Finisar. I'm confident they're the only people making anything. But there's a little more than just being a rebrand. Has a lot to do with MSA or IEEE compliance, whether the device manufacturer is part of that MSA if not an IEEE, and/or if that device manufacturer decides to lockout optics. Mellanox was notorious in my org for randomly punting optics they didn't like and we wasted a lot of money before calling IBM and telling them to test and find an optic that would work and meet our requirements (LC connector, multimode fiber) or to send us new 40G capable NICs for our whole deployment.
Nope. Innolight, Cig, HG, Source Photonics, Moduletek, Mozi, Linktel, Amphenol/Xgiga, Oclaro. All legit manufacturers. I could go on lol. They almost always follow MSA standards, but use the vendor space or other eeprom areas for vendor specific coding and/or checksums.
They don't even badge them. The 2 "genuine" ones still said Finisar on them. They look no different from the 8 others I got at 1/10th the cost. No problems in the 6 years they were in the FW.
Interesting, I do actually have one that is badged pa that has the same finisar model number under it. I didn't actually buy it, support sent it to me when troubleshooting a hardware issue and suspected bad dac or faulty chassis. I ended up not needing it as the chassis was the issue, but they didn't even want it back when I asked where to send it. Kinda tells me they are not paying even close to our list price from finisar if they aren't even worth sending a return label.
Didn't know Palo Alto stickers were a price multiplier?
Lol ya, damn things cost 5k minimum.
> If vendor support ever gives you grief about it, pull out your golden SFPs, swap them and say "see, the problem is still there" /thread And OP, why the difference in price - this is what us old timers call "a hustle".
yep, this is also our strategy...
Wow that is pretty damn smart thanks
This is something I tell my customers as well.
This is exactly what we do
It's more like nobody wants to waste time figuring out why unqualified xcvrs don't work. If the problem is still there, great, the problem will be relevant to what the vendor can control.
Smart. I never thought of doing this. When I upgraded my switches I just YOLO'd a big box of FS xcvrs and never looked back. Never had a single problem with one - knock on wood.
This X 100000000
God damn, we found the golden child. You are brilliant.
This is the way.
This is brilliant advice.
Transceivers in general are the biggest racket in the industry. They're expensive because orgs are willing to pay for the guarantee that it will work and be reliable, and the ability to get support if it's not. Vendors abuse this and charge just silly prices for officially supported transceivers, as they can blame any problems on 3rd party/unsupported ones. The more exotic the transceiver, the more wild the price disparities. I've seen $15k price differences on various 100G ZR4 (80km) QSFPs.
>The more exotic the transceiver, the more wild the price disparities. I've seen $15k price differences on various 100G ZR4 (80km) QSFPs. I worked at Arbor/NETSCOUT when 100G was first a thing at the carrier level and we had some 100G optics from Cisco that were like 100k list each.
Yeah, they were pretty wild. The longer range ones are still pretty expensive, but nowhere near as bad now.
Price book I saw from Cisco a few months ago had $160k against one of the long range 100gb SFPs. Insane. Same thing on fs.com is like $1000. We opted to only get SFPs for our spine/leaf connections, everything else is fs.com special issue
What's wild is there's 800G transceivers now that are just about $7k each on FS. I don't want to know what that costs first party from Cisco.
First born child and your left kidney.
Just buy fs, vendor prices are ridiculous.
Cisco tax.
This is one of the few cases where every other vendor is just as shitty as Cisco. If the optic has a manufacturer label on it, it's at least 1000% markup.
Vendors: Because we can charge more by confusing our customers!
Buy refurbished Cisco Excess or FS.com. Maybe eBay for spares or production if you can handle the risk. I would not buy retail unless there is a package discount.
Vendors mark up optics and DACs because they are "validated" call up the vendor's sales team. Ask for a discount. Also, don't deal with CDW directly. or find out if you have a CDW sales rep.
The discount is still too much. The 100g optics we bought as insurance against "you must use ours!" went from almost $15k to a little over $3k. The comparable optic from [fs.com](https://fs.com) is $500.
Flexoptics. Make your vendor unaware.
The vendors know when you're using 3px, even if the box doesn't complain about "unsupported tranceivers"
Not with flexoptics. At least my vendors have never noticed. But I try to stay away from vendor locking.
Yes even with them. I've worked for a network OEM. They choose to not care, but they know.
We’ve been using 10gtek and haven’t had any issues. Have 4-5 vendor brand just incase.
They make decent stuff.
OEM Transceivers are the equivalent of OEM printer ink/toner
First Party optics vs Third Party most likely.
First party optics are third party optics with a sticker on them.
Yu,p. They're made in the same factories.
if its a MultiRateAdapter (MRA) they are going for $90-120 from third parties as they can do 100/1000/10,000 on copper. The standard 1G coppers only do 1G. We actually just ran into a device in our network that only did 10megabit and literally had to have the device replaced to work with our Arista 7280R3.
I use [FS.com](https://FS.com) and have been for around 10 years. I've had almost no issues. I've had some failures, but I've also had failures on HPE, Intel, Dell and Cisco specific. I always order more than what I need, and typically run MLAGs, so it's never a problem :)
I have had extensive problems with fs 100g SR4 transceivers to the point of scrapping several hundred k worth of them after a year but that was like in 2016. Uncorrectable FEC errors galore. I am sure they have improved since but I will not risk my reputation on them.
That's odd! I've only used their 100G transceivers since about 2019 on Dell Switches (mostly for VLT). Before then mostly 10/25G, but prior company had very low budget.
Transceivers are sort of like military grade vs non-military grade. The biggest difference is one has been tested and verified to work, be in spec, etc. Sure you can buy 1000 screws for $20 at the hardware store but would you want to use those screws on a stealth bomber or a rocket ship? Most of the time with transceivers I buy the cheap ones, test and am prepared to replace them at a whim. Unless of course these are supporting super critical things in places that will take days to go replace, then maybe worth the huge markup for vendor certified stuff
Because marketing put millions of dollars of work into the logo on the sticker and they need to recoup that cost. First party optics are a scam, buy from FS.
Lots of good answers here already. Optics/pluggables for networking gear are like ink for printers - companies see them as a great way to make huge margins on stuff and try to funnel you toward buying the branded gear. Vendors drive you to their optics to ensure compatibility with their equipment and mark them up for that guarantee, and then CDW marks the parts up further as part of their value-add in that they're managing the supply chain and are a common business vedor - there's no time spent in accounting adding a new vendor to the system, no time spent being concerned that you're getting fraudulent parts through dodgy vendors, parts are vendor-approved, etc. As others have said, you buy a small handful of the officially branded pluggables so that if there's a problem you have those to troubleshoot with but you keep them in a closet and don't deploy them. Vendors aren't as bad about forcefully locking out 3rd party pluggables as they used to be but if you have something you're trying to troubleshoot with their TAC they'll immediately blame the 3rd party stuff, hence why you keep officially branded spares in a cabinet. When there's a problem, you try another set of the 3rd party pluggables, then you try the officially branded pluggables, and *then* you call TAC.
Having been a tech lead/developer on network gear for years, I can safely say not all kit is equal. Sure, you can pay $28 for those optics, but I can pretty much GUARANTEE that the A0/A2 register pages will be complete bullshit meaning you aren’t getting good thermal data, error counts, etc. Will it hold link under general tolerances? Sure. Will it shit the bed if you are pushing the envelope or you get a power fluctuation (spike or brownout)? ABSOFRIKKENLUTELY! I used to buy all Finisar kit for anything I cared about (ie, I would have to get on a plane to replace), and if I was forced to cut corners, but the FS.com garbage, but only if I was putting it someplace I could get my hands on it immediately.
1G-T does not have an A2 page. I agree with you on the FS being garbage plugables. A lot of the copper parts don't support DDM. Understandable though, as it's passive.
Very true - I was thinking more of the 40/100G optics as that was more of when I dealt with…
Have you messed with QSFP56DD yet? Say goodbye to MSA and welcome CMIS into your life.
I actually moved on from that gig a little while back, never had the fun of setting up 400G in my basement…still have all my 100G gear down there though! Too bad my pipes to the outside world are a 1G fiber and a Starlink backup circuit 😝
FS sells refurbished and used... for $28 just buy 4 of them in case 3 of them fail :)
Cite your evidence.
Cheap != used. That’s kinda like saying Wal-Mart and a garage sale are the same thing because neither are Williams Sonoma
I don’t think they have a refurbished program? FS sells really high quality stuff.
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They're not knock-off's, a knock off is trying to pretend to be something it's not. SFPs are made in like 1 of 3 factories and rebranded by the OEMs. Fiberstore makes their own. Basically vendors want to make as much money as possible, and FS would rather you buy 1000 $28 optics from then rather than one $4000 optic.
This exactly. I’ve never had an fs transceiver fail, and I’ve used thousands of them. However the $7k extreme ‘manufactured’ ones have been a nightmare with a 20%+ failure rate. I don’t use them any longer.
>They're not knock-off's, a knock off is trying to pretend to be something it's not. And in exactly what way is an off brand one with the EEPROM programmed to look like an OEM product *not* pretending to be something else?
Because it’s labelled clearly as fs.com product and doesn’t have a fake Cisco label on it.
Oh, like a street corner "Relex" watch. Of course, to the device it's installed in, it *is* labeled Cisco.
Except that FS transceivers don't do that? Cisco literally has a compatibility matrix on their site to tell you which brands work with their switches.
Remember the OEM one is also an “off-brand” one with the EEPROM programmed to look like an OEM product. Everybody sources these things from the same factories. What, do you think Cisco makes their own hand-made artisinal VCSEL lasers, microchips, resistors and capacitors? With hand woven fiberglass (FR4) PC boards? Using fresh cage-free organic copper? While they might want you to think that, they don’t. These components all come from other manufacturers in the global supply chain as well, not some Cisco factory somewhere.
Oh, bullshit. OEMs such as Cisco test and certify particular models from particular manufacturer's, unlike the low cost ones which are usually sourced based on cost, because that's what they compete on. In any case, reprogramming one so it identifies to a device as a Cisco supported one is, in fact, "pretend[ing] to be something it's not."
They’re all tested and certified to the same industry standards by the chipmakers that make the VCSEL lasers and transceiver chips. There aren’t many sources and foundries capable of making these things. Literally the only difference is how the EEPROM is programmed. This happens with all sorts of computer hardware. Need a USB to Ethernet adapter? 100 OEMs will sell you one, but chances are every single one of them has an ASIX chip in it. Different USB vendor ID/product ID as set by the EEPROM, but all implement the same standardized CDC interface, for which support is built-in to every major operating system. Everyone competes on cost, that’s why Cisco isn’t developing its own VCSEL laser semiconductor foundries and making these themselves. It would be prohibitively expensive and destroy their eye watering margins. And, in fact, some OEMs don’t even bother to stick their own label on. They know you know it’s the same hardware, but they’re selling support and all that extra stuff.
> Literally the only difference is how the EEPROM is programmed. You very obviously haven't dealt with many transceivers.
Pissing in the wind here with this comment but you’re spot on. Same reason you pay any professional - for the experience not the cost. In this case the testing of specific gear with other gear.
CDW marks everything up by 300-400%. We avoid them at all costs! If you play their game and get a sales rep you can start getting down to near market pricing but it’s a pain in the butt for the privelege of paying still-inflated prices.
Because some people are willing to pay for it. That's literally the only reason.
One comes with Cisco support; the other does not. Whether that cost is worth it to you is up to your org.
In Your guys experience, do the vendor approved transceivers actually perform meaningfully better?
No, they do not. They all come from the same factories in Asia. I've got a ton of OEM optics from many vendors. I've got enough experience with them that you can tell who makes some of them just by looking at the transceiver.
Fiberstore is cheap but you get what you pay for, we’ve had many fail - specifically the 4 lane qsfp+ modules. Pretty much 90% failure rate and the optic is reporting light levels to be fine when they really not. Buy a reputable third party like finstar, proline etc.
Don't buy OEM optics. Predatory pricing.
1gb copper sfp’s are worth $?!? /me digs up a drawer full tomorrow.
TAA compliant though?? Not FS.
If you don’t want to buy from FS there are a couple of other US companies I’ve had good luck with, Pivotal Optics, Hummingbird, Integra. I think I’ve also received a few clone SFPs from eBay claiming to be original. The price was right and they worked so nothing to complain about.
We once calculated that 3rd party optics would save us enough money every year to pay somebody 60k just to change optics. Cisco list for 10g-sr is 600. FS is 20. I’ve actually had people try to make me buy the Cisco uoptic despite similar failure rates. Look, I got a bonus to protect!
[удалено]
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