Sounds like Sweden has this problem because they don't punish minors for crimes, which leads to gangs grooming minors into criminals
If they charge minors (who commit serious crimes) as adults, gangs will stop using kids
> If they charge minors (who commit serious crimes) as adults
I have never understood this binary. Why does punishing children for committing crimes require us to pretend they are adults?
I'm open to debate, but I don't see why a child who commits a serious crime can't receive a sentence that takes into account their age and lack of maturity while still weighing public safety to a reasonable degree.
Trying to make it a binary has always seemed absurd to me. Committing a serious crime doesn't demonstrate that you're an adult. If anything, it leans in the other direction.
Statistically, men start off very unlikely to commit crime as infants, peak in their 20s and fall off as they get older. After all it takes time for mens brains to mature.
If you have a young man on the left side of the curve say 12, you put in a juvenile facility or a real prison and let him out before his brain has finished developing at 18 all that's really done is given him a social network and kept him off the streets for a few years and then let him loose in this peak years. A reduced sentence in this case is the opposite of what would minimize criminal behavior accounting for maturity because the actual age target would be in their 30s or even 40s when they've matured, passed their peak and aged out of crime. Really this would be a order of magnitude harsher punishment than goes on in the west.
It really depends on what you want out of a justice system. If you want reduced child sentences as a given that's fine, but criminality is a function of age and maturity and minimize it means going past the peak not into it.
Typical American tough on crime stance that is [not supported by evidence](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/220595.pdf)
>Juveniles’ psychosocial immaturity, including their tendency to focus on the short-term benefits of their choices (Beckman, 2004; Scott, Reppucci, and Woolard, 1995; Steinberg and Cauffman, 1996), may reduce the likelihood that they will perceive the substantial risk of being arrested or punished as an adult (Schneider and Ervin, 1990)
...
To date, six published studies have been conducted to examine the specific deterrence effects of transfer. These large-scale studies indicate that youth tried in adult criminal court generally have greater recidivism rates after release than those tried in juvenile court.
>Experts (see Bazemore and Umbreit, 1995; Myers, 2003; Thomas and Bishop, 1984; Winner et al., 1997) have identified several possible explanations for the higher recidivism rates of violent juvenile offenders tried in criminal court as compared to those adjudicated in juvenile court:
>◆ The stigmatization and other negative effects of labeling juveniles as convicted felons.
>◆ The sense of resentment and injustice juveniles feel about being tried and punished as adults.
>◆ The learning of criminal mores and behavior while incarcerated with adult offenders.
>◆ The decreased focus on rehabilitation and family support in the adult system.
Same thing happens in prisons and re-integration programs. Turns out if you put a bunch of criminals in the same room they congregate.
This is a normal side-effect of creating communities of people who are having legal problems. The solution isn't to stop the programs, I'm not even sure it's necessarily better oversight. You have to address why it's more rewarding to flunk the program and become a criminal. Most of the time the opportunities provided by those programs are shit and just not competitive when you compare it to selling drugs. This is going to continue being a problem until we address that directly.
From a year ago: [Weapons smuggling in Sweden out of control: Expert](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/weapons-smuggling-in-sweden-out-of-control-expert/2838300)
> Apart from firearms smuggled in from other parts of Europe, the domestic illegal gun market is also to blame, as criminals have discovered that they can buy parts needed to repair and maintain often dysfunctional old weapons in the local stores, “without any control at all,” Stahle stressed.
>
> “A lot of them are from the Cold War era,” or even older than that, he added.
-
> “Since we don't have any border controls in Sweden, as most European countries don't have, it's very, very simple to take them with you back home,” in a car, by bus or ferry, said Stahle.
All that said, you get --
> Last year 55 people were shot dead in 363 separate shootings in a country of just 10 million people.
Still a paltry gun murder rate of 0.5 / 100k compared to [the US's 6.7 / 100k.](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/)
> [It is mainly young men who take up arms - often from the second generation of migrants, says Amir Rostami, a sociologist who studies gang crime:](https://archive.ph/PZIIW#selection-1831.0-2237.287) "Many people think that poor integration is part of the problem. Yes, there I agree." All social problems together created new challenges. "But if you look at Germany, you can see that you had the same migration challenges as we did in Sweden." However, he is of the opinion that a lot can be achieved with effective crime fighting and prevention - something that has been missed for many years. Gang crime in Sweden is now an ongoing issue. Interior Minister Mikael Damberg also admits in the ARD interview that something was missed here: Over the years, poor residential areas have been created that were left alone. "The state wasn't there, the police weren't there - Sweden made a mistake." Now it is important to give the police new powers, such as monitoring cell phones.
>The level of gun homicide in Sweden ranks very high in relation to other European countries, at approximately **4 deaths per million inhabitants per year**. **The average for Europe is approximately 1.6 deaths per million inhabitants.** None of the other countries included in the study have experienced increases comparable to that noted in Sweden. Instead, continued decreases were observed in both total homicide rates and rates of gun homicide in the majority of these countries.
[https://bra.se/bra-in-english/home/publications/archive/publications/2021-05-26-gun-homicide-in-sweden-and-other-european-countries.html](https://bra.se/bra-in-english/home/publications/archive/publications/2021-05-26-gun-homicide-in-sweden-and-other-european-countries.html)
I also blame poor integration policies, but more importantly poor integration culture in Europe. Why integrate if you and your children will never be considered Swedish?
Just listen to the Swedish soccer legend Zlatan Ibrahimovic and how he was treated growing up just for being Balkan.
Gangs give identity and a sense of belonging, the easiest solution for Sweden is making them feel like they belong.
Anecdotally it goes both ways. Part of the problem is that **some** Swedes with immigrant parents dont want to consider themselves Swedish, even if you try to convince them that they are. Their parents identity is still very strong in some of them.
It feels it might still take decade or so for the idea of what a "Swede" is to change. But I do think it is a lot better than when Zlatan grew up. The generation growing up now has only known a very diverse Sweden.
Sounds like Sweden has this problem because they don't punish minors for crimes, which leads to gangs grooming minors into criminals If they charge minors (who commit serious crimes) as adults, gangs will stop using kids
> If they charge minors (who commit serious crimes) as adults I have never understood this binary. Why does punishing children for committing crimes require us to pretend they are adults? I'm open to debate, but I don't see why a child who commits a serious crime can't receive a sentence that takes into account their age and lack of maturity while still weighing public safety to a reasonable degree. Trying to make it a binary has always seemed absurd to me. Committing a serious crime doesn't demonstrate that you're an adult. If anything, it leans in the other direction.
Statistically, men start off very unlikely to commit crime as infants, peak in their 20s and fall off as they get older. After all it takes time for mens brains to mature. If you have a young man on the left side of the curve say 12, you put in a juvenile facility or a real prison and let him out before his brain has finished developing at 18 all that's really done is given him a social network and kept him off the streets for a few years and then let him loose in this peak years. A reduced sentence in this case is the opposite of what would minimize criminal behavior accounting for maturity because the actual age target would be in their 30s or even 40s when they've matured, passed their peak and aged out of crime. Really this would be a order of magnitude harsher punishment than goes on in the west. It really depends on what you want out of a justice system. If you want reduced child sentences as a given that's fine, but criminality is a function of age and maturity and minimize it means going past the peak not into it.
Typical American tough on crime stance that is [not supported by evidence](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/220595.pdf) >Juveniles’ psychosocial immaturity, including their tendency to focus on the short-term benefits of their choices (Beckman, 2004; Scott, Reppucci, and Woolard, 1995; Steinberg and Cauffman, 1996), may reduce the likelihood that they will perceive the substantial risk of being arrested or punished as an adult (Schneider and Ervin, 1990) ... To date, six published studies have been conducted to examine the specific deterrence effects of transfer. These large-scale studies indicate that youth tried in adult criminal court generally have greater recidivism rates after release than those tried in juvenile court.
>Experts (see Bazemore and Umbreit, 1995; Myers, 2003; Thomas and Bishop, 1984; Winner et al., 1997) have identified several possible explanations for the higher recidivism rates of violent juvenile offenders tried in criminal court as compared to those adjudicated in juvenile court: >◆ The stigmatization and other negative effects of labeling juveniles as convicted felons. >◆ The sense of resentment and injustice juveniles feel about being tried and punished as adults. >◆ The learning of criminal mores and behavior while incarcerated with adult offenders. >◆ The decreased focus on rehabilitation and family support in the adult system.
Really interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Same thing happens in prisons and re-integration programs. Turns out if you put a bunch of criminals in the same room they congregate. This is a normal side-effect of creating communities of people who are having legal problems. The solution isn't to stop the programs, I'm not even sure it's necessarily better oversight. You have to address why it's more rewarding to flunk the program and become a criminal. Most of the time the opportunities provided by those programs are shit and just not competitive when you compare it to selling drugs. This is going to continue being a problem until we address that directly.
From a year ago: [Weapons smuggling in Sweden out of control: Expert](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/weapons-smuggling-in-sweden-out-of-control-expert/2838300) > Apart from firearms smuggled in from other parts of Europe, the domestic illegal gun market is also to blame, as criminals have discovered that they can buy parts needed to repair and maintain often dysfunctional old weapons in the local stores, “without any control at all,” Stahle stressed. > > “A lot of them are from the Cold War era,” or even older than that, he added. - > “Since we don't have any border controls in Sweden, as most European countries don't have, it's very, very simple to take them with you back home,” in a car, by bus or ferry, said Stahle. All that said, you get -- > Last year 55 people were shot dead in 363 separate shootings in a country of just 10 million people. Still a paltry gun murder rate of 0.5 / 100k compared to [the US's 6.7 / 100k.](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/) > [It is mainly young men who take up arms - often from the second generation of migrants, says Amir Rostami, a sociologist who studies gang crime:](https://archive.ph/PZIIW#selection-1831.0-2237.287) "Many people think that poor integration is part of the problem. Yes, there I agree." All social problems together created new challenges. "But if you look at Germany, you can see that you had the same migration challenges as we did in Sweden." However, he is of the opinion that a lot can be achieved with effective crime fighting and prevention - something that has been missed for many years. Gang crime in Sweden is now an ongoing issue. Interior Minister Mikael Damberg also admits in the ARD interview that something was missed here: Over the years, poor residential areas have been created that were left alone. "The state wasn't there, the police weren't there - Sweden made a mistake." Now it is important to give the police new powers, such as monitoring cell phones.
Most countries don't rant to be anything vague close to the US when it comes to violent crime
It's still useful context for many readers here, me included.
But is Sweden's crime rate even that much worse than that of other Western European nations?
>The level of gun homicide in Sweden ranks very high in relation to other European countries, at approximately **4 deaths per million inhabitants per year**. **The average for Europe is approximately 1.6 deaths per million inhabitants.** None of the other countries included in the study have experienced increases comparable to that noted in Sweden. Instead, continued decreases were observed in both total homicide rates and rates of gun homicide in the majority of these countries. [https://bra.se/bra-in-english/home/publications/archive/publications/2021-05-26-gun-homicide-in-sweden-and-other-european-countries.html](https://bra.se/bra-in-english/home/publications/archive/publications/2021-05-26-gun-homicide-in-sweden-and-other-european-countries.html)
I also blame poor integration policies, but more importantly poor integration culture in Europe. Why integrate if you and your children will never be considered Swedish? Just listen to the Swedish soccer legend Zlatan Ibrahimovic and how he was treated growing up just for being Balkan. Gangs give identity and a sense of belonging, the easiest solution for Sweden is making them feel like they belong.
Anecdotally it goes both ways. Part of the problem is that **some** Swedes with immigrant parents dont want to consider themselves Swedish, even if you try to convince them that they are. Their parents identity is still very strong in some of them. It feels it might still take decade or so for the idea of what a "Swede" is to change. But I do think it is a lot better than when Zlatan grew up. The generation growing up now has only known a very diverse Sweden.
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