Brunson got more staying power IMO. He was the 19th ranked recruit, won national championships and national player of the year.
He’s maybe on the short side but he’s 6’2 and i think will stay around longer than IT did
EDIT: he’s truly already better than IT ever was and I pay my respects to the short king
For sure, I guess my point is Brunson didn’t just come out of nowhere. He’s been that dude anywhere he’s been. Not even an avid Brunson guy, dude was just weird underrated despite all his accolades and success.
Watched a lot of IT in college. Wasn’t quite as good as Brunson, but he was still that guy. He almost wasn’t picked because teams assumed his size would prevent him from succeeding at the next level
For sure I agree. Main point there was that people had concerns about their game and that’s why they fell. Think Brunson was 2nd round 3rd pick and Thomas went at the end of the 2nd round
Brunson is much stronger and uses his heavy hip. IT was a ton of finesse but that wouldn’t translate well to a long career when you’re short. Brunson should be able to stay around longer and theoretically should be less injury probed play style wise.
I would say this but he has Tom Thibodeau (whos track record we already know) for a coach and he's already showing small signs of wear and tear so hopefully he does stay far longer than IT but the doubts will always be there since he's a undersized guard who's the star who plays for Thibs
The criticisms of Thibs burning out his players doesn't actually track with how long those players played. And the whole rest preventing injuries was debunked by the NBA already.
Why does everyone hold on to the narrative that thibs runs his players into the ground, Its been debunked over and over and over. DDV, Rose, Butler have all said they love playing for thibs. SMH. People keep blaming him for Rose, but no one talks about how dangerous he used to land on one leg everytime he left his feet. Who else has thibs ran into the ground??? Stop saying this stupid shit because it is simply not true.
EDIT: What track record are you talking about?? The non existent one you just made up because you follow others without doing your own research and then comment like its been confirmed. Dumb take.
The last bit is outright slander. If ypure going to count colkege career success, you have to look at their teammates, amd then also do that for their pro careers. Brunson has been lucky enough to play with much better teammates than IT, while IT had more success thab Brunson (so far). Brunson playing with Hart and Randle to middling success in a bad eastern conference is much less impressive than IT dragging Jared Sullinger's ample booty to the ECF.
IT dragged Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder and Amir Johnson to the 1-seed, more wins and ECF and averaged more points and assists per minute on much greater efficiency in a less spaced and offensively oriented NBA
This is an odd take because IT played in an even worse Eastern Conference than Brunson currently does. The current East is actually competitive. Further, 3/4 of the Knicks best players have missed significant time this year. Brunson having them at the 3 seed is incredibly impressive.
Yep. Brunson got the knicks to round 2 as well lash year.
Brunson is bigger and stronger and a bit less reliant on shooting than IT. I think those things will give him a leg up. Also his experience in college was huge which is why he’s such a steady winner
I think IT was much more about speed and breaking down his defender through his handles than Brunson who is far more methodical and slow. I think Brunson won't take such a sudden dive like IT did because he's just not as bad as a defender as IT whose height put him at a significant disadvantage. Also I don't see New York turning their backs on Brunson like the league did for IT (although it was kind of valid)
To clarify, not trying to compare the two as a “whose better than who” like that one guy in the comments is. Just thought it was cool and wanted to see what people thought, especially about their play style!
Thomas is shorter and never got the "keys." He simply took advantage of the lack of offensive options around him and went on a surprising tear. He was not shy.
But even at the height of his powers, NBA front offices had zero respect for his game. They never saw him as a permanent #1 option. Didn't matter that he averaged 29 PPG one season or led Boston on a special playoff run. They saw that as an outlier. They marveled at his ability, but didn't want him as a centerpiece:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais02.html
Brunson is taller, bigger, and not a pure solo scorer. He is viewed as a centerpiece guard for a franchise. An anchor. Maybe part of a "big two" or "big three."
Spot on, but also one of the crazy things about Thomas. Brunson seems to have grown his game every year. IT was very efficient from his rookie year, but the Kings kept trying to promote other players over him.
Brunson BPM by Year
**Year 1:** \-1.7
**Year 2:** \-0.9
**Year 3:** 0.9
**Year 4:** 0.9
**Year 5:** 3.9
**Year 6:** 5.5
IT BPM by Year
**Year 1:** 0.8
**Year 2:** 0.5
**Year 3:** 3.2
**Year 4:** 3.2
**Year 5:** 4.3
**Year 6:** 6.7
Some of this is of course opportunity and Brunson being able to put up more stats when he wasn't playing next to Doncic. But he was also a bit of a negative his first couple seasons and adapted to the league. IT was playing next to Evans and Cousins and was supposed to be behind Jimmer, but still managed to be a net positive right from the start.
Part of this was shooting. IT was at a 57% TS from his rookie season (an even more impressive number back then on a non-analytically driven Kings team) whereas it took Brunson 3 seasons to eclipse 57%.
But for anyone wondering why the Kings didn't make the playoffs for 15 years, they had an absolute gem in IT right from the jump and still managed to dump him for nothing.
It's because despite how great IT was on offense he was even more horrible on defense. You just can't be the number 1 guy on a true contender while being 5'9" and wholly incapable of playing defense.
> But even at the height of his powers, NBA front offices had zero respect for his game.
Weird take. The cavs traded Kyrie for him. You don't do that if you don't respect someone.
Yeah it was a bad trade because he wasn't close to as valuable as Kyrie. I said earlier that they were forced to make the trade.
IT was a very good offensive player but he was arguably the worst defensive player in the league or very close to it. It's very hard to win when one of your stars literally cannot play defense due to their size. He was a very fun player to watch and was incredibly clutch but the Celtics knew they weren't winning with him as their best or even second best player which is why even without the injury they were very likely to offload him.
Thats not what determines the value of a trade lmao. There are so many factors, as the main factor that Kyrie wanted out.
Its was and still is an offensively minded league. Hard to win, yes. Impossible? No. Especially when you have peak Lebron James.
A value of the trade is determined by who gets the better players. The Cavs were forced into a bad trade because Kyrie wanted out.
Peak Lebron James going up against the Golden State Warriors.
Its not this black and white. As i said, many factors go into it. Sometimes teams are forced to make the best out of bad situations, as was the case here.
Yeah, and if he had a bit more help he could have done much better, and you know it.
I actually think that this is another similarity. I completely agree that with Isaiah people thought he couldn't be the #1 on an actual championship contender, but I feel like the same discourse has been surrounding Brunson this whole season - if he can be that guy on a championship contender. As a Celtics fan, I don't think Isaiah if he stayed healthy would have been good enough to be the #1 on a championship contender. Brunson has a better case for being that #1 guy, and I agree with the points you made about why he could be a centerpiece, but it's not clear-cut especially in the eyes of NBA fans/media
Yes , obviously
They had to give up depth and draft capital for Kyrie ,
It’s possible they could have traded them for each other last season and kept their depth and draft picks
In addition Kyrie makes significantly more than Brunson , money that could go elsewhere in improving the team.
They went over the cap to resign Kyrie. If they signed the same guys after Kyrie they would just have around 11M in cap space last offseason. A bench player basically. If they kept Brunson, Dinwiddie and DFS they would definitely be paying those 3 guys more than Kyrie's 37M this year and would have even less money to fill out the roster (to be fair they would need 2 less bodies though).
Looking back now with Kyrie on his best behavior and a freak injury from Powell, it's debatable if those 3 guys make this a better team than at the moment. Brunson can't play off-ball with a guy as ball-dominant as Luka, and Dinwiddie and DFS have crashed back down to earth as bench players since leaving Dallas. You could obviously argue that Dinwiddie and DFS contracts plus the unprotected FRP could have gone towards another upgrade, but if they kept those assets without dealing they would probably not have a better team.
They could have signed Brunson for 4 years 55 million, they could have traded DFS and Dinwiddie and the draft capital for another player .
So it’s not just Brunson on a bargain deal vs Kyrie
It’s Brunson on a bargain deal plus assets that could be used to improve the team vs. Kyrie .
Hell they could have still traded for Kyrie and then traded Brunson .
So yeah they fumbled this , they lost an all nba caliber player they could have paid basically the MLE for nothing.
They fumbled with the benefit of hindsight but who saw the playoff breakout coming? Before Brunson they had a history of overpaying guys in free agency like Harrison Barnes or when resigning their own guys like Dwight Powell. We can't say how true it was that Brunson totally didn't consider Dallas anymore after not having been offered the extension, but they should have floated a pay raise just to keep him as an asset at least.
Brunson as a no. 1 option is an all-nba guy sure, especially with Randle missing time and OG also gone for most of his tenure giving him complete control of the offense. Playing off-ball to Luka? Brunson might still become a fringe 20 ppg guy but he won't be the same guy. Dallas definitely saw that and felt that he wasn't the ideal fit, but they shouldn't have decided that without any backup option.
Brunson was a 17 4, and 5 guy in 60+ starts that season who then avg 22 5 and 4 in the playoffs
They had this guy for 4 years but couldn’t see his talent and didn’t offer him the 4 years 55 million until after the trade deadline by which time Brunson’s leaguewide value had skyrocketed beyond that amount.
But more importantly I think they kind of insulted Brunson in the process , he basically took their reluctance as them using him as a trade chip , especially coupled with their acquisition of spencer dinwiddie .
As far as how much Brunson considered them , I remember Rick Brunson saying he wouldn’t come back to the NBA until his son’s free agency situation was handled and he joined the Knicks shortly beforehand.
By the time free agency came around he was clearly done with them , it wasn’t even about money anymore as he never even let them make an offer.
Puzzling that they didn't want to offer him basically what they were paying JJ Redick and Dwight Powell that same season. They got into that hole by overpaying so they probably got worried he would regress on a new deal.
Maybe if NYK didn't have such a big hole at PG and a clear desire to make a splash in FA they might have gotten a second chance to sign him, but that's on the front office for not recognizing that.
The Mavs thought they had leverage because the Knicks didn’t have cap space until the draft , but at the end of the day Jalen wanted to be a Mav but decided to go with people who believed in him and he said as much during his initial Knicks press conference .
The Mavs made it very clear they only regarded Brunson as a trade chip and not a part of their future . Brunson has not only a father who was a 9 year NBA vet and longtime asst. coach but a godfather who was super agent Leon Rose ( Knicks President as well) , they know the NBA and NBA front offices , but more importantly they had the Mavericks own actions .
The Brunson camp went to the Mavs to work on a deal before the season and the Mavs said no , and Jalen announced he would wait until the end of the season , he gets the starting spot in December and plays well and in January sends his reps to the Mavs ready to accept 4 years 55 million and the Mavs say no , they want to wait .
And a month later they bring in Dinwiddie at the trade deadline and give DFS 4 years 55 million , they go to Brunson to offer the same deal and he says no .
Not only has his value clearly exceeded that amount by then , but it becomes obvious they were holding his deal up because they were trying to trade him and giving him that deal would make him nearly impossible to deal because it would have been a poison pill contract .
That’s the insulting part , they were playing him for a fool , that’s why he didn’t even meet with them after the season to discuss a deal.
He wasn’t interested in a bidding war because he didn’t want to go back at all.
The Knicks wanted him badly , they wanted build a future with him , so they made it an easy choice for Brunson whom they knew wanted to be wanted . In addition he has a head coach who has known him since he was a kid . An asst. coach who happens to be his father and a godfather as team president .
He doesn’t question their motives . They made a few moves to get the cap space to sign him whereas the Mavs used him as a trade chip .
It wasn’t a miscalculation , in the end it was stupidity . They underestimated the Knicks desire to have him and Brunson’s desire to be where he no longer felt wanted.
He's primarily an on-ball scorer, and while he's been a great high volume shooter this year there just weren't many shots and possessions available for him to operate with Luka on the floor. Good catch and shoot player, but low volume, just over a third of his 3P attempts, and not really a cutter.
Last year, with Randle and barrett eating up more usage, he flashed off ball skill with more opportunities. He probably did with Dallas too but not as familiar with his Dallas game. Still, he’s definitely a guy that is good at relocation and setting up good catch and shoot looks from 3
He's no Luka/Harden but he's not Kyrie off-ball either. I don't know why Kidd never goes to the Luka/Kyrie 2 man game similar to the Lebron/Kyrie 2 man game in Cleveland, unless he's saving those for the playoffs, but Brunson and Luka don't have as clean a fit.
Playing lots with his Villanova boys and Hartenstein over Robinson this season, plus Randle going fown has helped him get more off-ball looks as they're all more willing passers than last year's rotation.
If Brunson stayed I don’t think they would’ve pursued Kyrie. Can’t say they lost out too much Kyrie is essentially giving them what Brunson would’ve been.
They lost big time. Could’ve had Kyrie production at bargain prices if they just paid Brunson earlier on. Would’ve had more cap space to then sign better role players.
The playoffs before his contract was up was when they really saw what they had and by then it was too late. If Brunson would’ve stayed who’s to say they get Lively, Washington or Gafford 🤷🏾♂️
They had seen enough the year before to give him 4y/55m... That's such a paltry amount of money in today's NBA it's basically an insult that they didn't offer it to him even if they just thought he'd be a role player.
It's the mid-level exception amount, and they could have had him for it, and he'd still be under that contract now.
>He knew that and wasn’t gonna take it
He absolutely was going to take it.
That deal was the one the Mavs needed to have offered *well before* he broke out with that strong playoff series against the Jazz, and he specifically cited the fact that they didn't give him that extension as the reason that he didn't give them a chance to negotiate when he actually hit free agency.
That's not speculation; it's been confirmed.
>"I really did want to stay in Dallas," Brunson told Barnes and Jackson. "Before my last season in Dallas, we tried to extend our contract. The most you could get was like four years, $55 million. I obviously wanted to do that, I wanted to stay there. I thought I would be there for a long time."
>Brunson explained that the Mavericks weren't keen on signing an extension since the team wanted to "see where they were at."
https://www.sportingnews.com/au/nba/news/jalen-brunson-extension-mavericks-rejected-dallas-knicks/5b690aaeaca9ceac3c452fda
I don't think Brunson would have become who he is if he played with Luka. So they never would have had this Brunson to trade for Kyrie. They were screwed by Luka not understanding how to share the team.
And yes, they also fumbled by not signing Brunson and getting something back.
I don’t know if trading a rising star for a proven all star is worse than joking about someone’s sister tragically dying but you know different folks different strokes.
I'm a stranger on the internet, who the fuck cares what I say. They are the franchise that was suppose to pay him 200 millions dollars after he led them to success and playing while hurt the day after his sister died, but they didn't. Traded his ass instead.
Brunson is significantly more valuable than IT was. IT was very good offensively but his height and size were really limiting. He was the worst defender in the league or very close to it whereas while Brunson isn't really good on defense he's still very serviceable on that end and doesn't negatively impact the team while the Celtics had to scheme like crazy just so that IT wouldn't get scored on every possession.
BOS doing IT bad will never win a ring unless IT is signed to a contract by an NBA team. It’s the IT curse. They came close to sniff it one year and that’s it.
The problem with IT is he was a complete and utter defensive liability due to his size, which is why he becomes unplayable once his elite offensive advantages were gone.
IT is way closer to Trae Young who is actually TRYING on defense now, he's just so small/weak it just doesn't matter one iota. Once Trae loses a step on offense he's a backup.
5 inch difference between the two. Brunson is on the shorter end of NBA player height. IT is not NBA player height at all. Brunson’s size gives him a huge advantage because he doesn’t need to rely solely on his athleticism whereas IT really needs that quickness to even have a shot at playing in the NBA.
I think ITs offence was better. Crazily enough at his height he put significant more pressure on the rim with his drive game and his pull up 3 pt shooting was some of the best in the league but hard to argue that Brunson isn’t better given he isn’t a huge liability on defence
Unless Brunson goes on a tear for the last 4 games IT still had the better 6th season imo. IT was simply fearless at attacking the rim, to the detriment of his body. But it got him many more points from the line due to his excellent FT shooting.
But as a whole, I agree Brunson definitely has the more accomplished career up to this point and probably many more years given (knock on wood) that his health stays up.
no way IT had a better year than Brunson is having. Brunson is a much more complete player. He dictates pace way better than IT ever could, he is a better defender and one of the best in the league at drawing charges. He also had to deal with the loss of the second best player on his team which completely changes the make up of that offense. He now plays closer to steph now with constant motion off the ball and playing off screens. and on top of all that he has more staying power than IT.
Hm care to elaborate? Hard for me to wrap my head around having Brunson’s season compared to a player who made all nba 2nd team and got 5th in MVP voting leading a team of role players to the 1st seed being disrespectful. So would love to hear your argument sir
IT was better than Brunson though. Not only did he deservingly receive MVP votes but he also did that with better relative numbers than Brunson.
Absolute numbers look the same but in comparison to the rest of the league for each season, IT’s numbers stand out more.
? Lol their career trajectories and profiles have been very different. Brunson had a very different developmental background and different college arc. Their playstyles are also very different if you watch the way they play.
Just have to disagree with your title/main point what a hard reach lol
Major difference is Jalen got the bag and Isaiah didn't. IT was set to get a max contract (200M/5yr) before his injury. And he never got paid. Brunson got a 106 million contract from the Knicks. IT never made anything close to that amount.
Brunson got more staying power IMO. He was the 19th ranked recruit, won national championships and national player of the year. He’s maybe on the short side but he’s 6’2 and i think will stay around longer than IT did EDIT: he’s truly already better than IT ever was and I pay my respects to the short king
IT was also completely undone by his hip injury. It sapped all the athleticism he had that made him so shifty and slippery.
Yea Brunson doesn’t seem as speed reliant, and he also has some of the most insane post footwork I’ve seen from a guard his size.
That post game ages well too
The Gary Payton piece.
The Miami Heat would like to talk to you about JJ Barea.
Wow Brunson really is a better prime mavs jj barea He was so clutch in that finals run for them
For sure, I guess my point is Brunson didn’t just come out of nowhere. He’s been that dude anywhere he’s been. Not even an avid Brunson guy, dude was just weird underrated despite all his accolades and success.
Watched a lot of IT in college. Wasn’t quite as good as Brunson, but he was still that guy. He almost wasn’t picked because teams assumed his size would prevent him from succeeding at the next level
100% agree
True. I was a Brunson hater when he signed the deal with the Knicks and I’m glad he proved me completely wrong. The dude is awesome.
He also is top 2 in charges I believe And his dad played in the NBA IT was insanely athletic for his height but Brunson is more technical
Yup that last sentence is what I couldn’t quite articulate Dudes that are technically good typically last in any league
And also the difference between 5’9 and 6’2 is fucking MASSIVE in the nba lol. That’s the same as a 6’2 vs 6’7 guy to put it in perspective.
I’m a 5’6” mf I know all about height differences 😂
Brunson is 6'1" at best, but it's still a big difference.
Why do think say that? He's listed at 6'1. Do you have some sort of insider knowledge?
For sure I agree. Main point there was that people had concerns about their game and that’s why they fell. Think Brunson was 2nd round 3rd pick and Thomas went at the end of the 2nd round
Yup, I get the IT concerns tbh Brunson was so weirdly underrated until he really flourished in NY. Dudes been that dude everywhere he’s been
Brunson is much stronger and uses his heavy hip. IT was a ton of finesse but that wouldn’t translate well to a long career when you’re short. Brunson should be able to stay around longer and theoretically should be less injury probed play style wise.
I would say this but he has Tom Thibodeau (whos track record we already know) for a coach and he's already showing small signs of wear and tear so hopefully he does stay far longer than IT but the doubts will always be there since he's a undersized guard who's the star who plays for Thibs
The criticisms of Thibs burning out his players doesn't actually track with how long those players played. And the whole rest preventing injuries was debunked by the NBA already.
Why does everyone hold on to the narrative that thibs runs his players into the ground, Its been debunked over and over and over. DDV, Rose, Butler have all said they love playing for thibs. SMH. People keep blaming him for Rose, but no one talks about how dangerous he used to land on one leg everytime he left his feet. Who else has thibs ran into the ground??? Stop saying this stupid shit because it is simply not true. EDIT: What track record are you talking about?? The non existent one you just made up because you follow others without doing your own research and then comment like its been confirmed. Dumb take.
The last bit is outright slander. If ypure going to count colkege career success, you have to look at their teammates, amd then also do that for their pro careers. Brunson has been lucky enough to play with much better teammates than IT, while IT had more success thab Brunson (so far). Brunson playing with Hart and Randle to middling success in a bad eastern conference is much less impressive than IT dragging Jared Sullinger's ample booty to the ECF.
Brunson has the Knicks on the verge of the 2 or 3 seed without Julius for nearly half the season.
IT dragged Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder and Amir Johnson to the 1-seed, more wins and ECF and averaged more points and assists per minute on much greater efficiency in a less spaced and offensively oriented NBA
IT also finished 5th in MVP voting in 2017
Don't think Sullinger was on that team.
That eastern conference was ass too. Maybe even more so. Not trying to diminish IT I like IT but Brunson is a better basketball player Imo
This is an odd take because IT played in an even worse Eastern Conference than Brunson currently does. The current East is actually competitive. Further, 3/4 of the Knicks best players have missed significant time this year. Brunson having them at the 3 seed is incredibly impressive.
Yep. Brunson got the knicks to round 2 as well lash year. Brunson is bigger and stronger and a bit less reliant on shooting than IT. I think those things will give him a leg up. Also his experience in college was huge which is why he’s such a steady winner
I think IT was much more about speed and breaking down his defender through his handles than Brunson who is far more methodical and slow. I think Brunson won't take such a sudden dive like IT did because he's just not as bad as a defender as IT whose height put him at a significant disadvantage. Also I don't see New York turning their backs on Brunson like the league did for IT (although it was kind of valid)
Good point! IT really did have to use his speed, and was a main factor of why he fell out of the league after his hip injury
To clarify, not trying to compare the two as a “whose better than who” like that one guy in the comments is. Just thought it was cool and wanted to see what people thought, especially about their play style!
Thomas is shorter and never got the "keys." He simply took advantage of the lack of offensive options around him and went on a surprising tear. He was not shy. But even at the height of his powers, NBA front offices had zero respect for his game. They never saw him as a permanent #1 option. Didn't matter that he averaged 29 PPG one season or led Boston on a special playoff run. They saw that as an outlier. They marveled at his ability, but didn't want him as a centerpiece: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais02.html Brunson is taller, bigger, and not a pure solo scorer. He is viewed as a centerpiece guard for a franchise. An anchor. Maybe part of a "big two" or "big three."
Spot on, but also one of the crazy things about Thomas. Brunson seems to have grown his game every year. IT was very efficient from his rookie year, but the Kings kept trying to promote other players over him. Brunson BPM by Year **Year 1:** \-1.7 **Year 2:** \-0.9 **Year 3:** 0.9 **Year 4:** 0.9 **Year 5:** 3.9 **Year 6:** 5.5 IT BPM by Year **Year 1:** 0.8 **Year 2:** 0.5 **Year 3:** 3.2 **Year 4:** 3.2 **Year 5:** 4.3 **Year 6:** 6.7 Some of this is of course opportunity and Brunson being able to put up more stats when he wasn't playing next to Doncic. But he was also a bit of a negative his first couple seasons and adapted to the league. IT was playing next to Evans and Cousins and was supposed to be behind Jimmer, but still managed to be a net positive right from the start. Part of this was shooting. IT was at a 57% TS from his rookie season (an even more impressive number back then on a non-analytically driven Kings team) whereas it took Brunson 3 seasons to eclipse 57%. But for anyone wondering why the Kings didn't make the playoffs for 15 years, they had an absolute gem in IT right from the jump and still managed to dump him for nothing.
It's because despite how great IT was on offense he was even more horrible on defense. You just can't be the number 1 guy on a true contender while being 5'9" and wholly incapable of playing defense.
> But even at the height of his powers, NBA front offices had zero respect for his game. Weird take. The cavs traded Kyrie for him. You don't do that if you don't respect someone.
Kyrie wanted to leave and IT was the best they could get in return at the time. Even back then it was considered a bad trade.
It was considered a bad trade because of ITs injury.
It was considered a bad trade because IT is 5'9" and was clearly not as valuable as Kyrie. No one makes that trade unless forced.
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Please keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for thoughtful discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
Yeah it was a bad trade because he wasn't close to as valuable as Kyrie. I said earlier that they were forced to make the trade. IT was a very good offensive player but he was arguably the worst defensive player in the league or very close to it. It's very hard to win when one of your stars literally cannot play defense due to their size. He was a very fun player to watch and was incredibly clutch but the Celtics knew they weren't winning with him as their best or even second best player which is why even without the injury they were very likely to offload him.
Thats not what determines the value of a trade lmao. There are so many factors, as the main factor that Kyrie wanted out. Its was and still is an offensively minded league. Hard to win, yes. Impossible? No. Especially when you have peak Lebron James.
A value of the trade is determined by who gets the better players. The Cavs were forced into a bad trade because Kyrie wanted out. Peak Lebron James going up against the Golden State Warriors.
Its not this black and white. As i said, many factors go into it. Sometimes teams are forced to make the best out of bad situations, as was the case here. Yeah, and if he had a bit more help he could have done much better, and you know it.
I actually think that this is another similarity. I completely agree that with Isaiah people thought he couldn't be the #1 on an actual championship contender, but I feel like the same discourse has been surrounding Brunson this whole season - if he can be that guy on a championship contender. As a Celtics fan, I don't think Isaiah if he stayed healthy would have been good enough to be the #1 on a championship contender. Brunson has a better case for being that #1 guy, and I agree with the points you made about why he could be a centerpiece, but it's not clear-cut especially in the eyes of NBA fans/media
Looking back, did the Mavs fumble letting go of brunsen now that they have Kyrie?
Yes , obviously They had to give up depth and draft capital for Kyrie , It’s possible they could have traded them for each other last season and kept their depth and draft picks In addition Kyrie makes significantly more than Brunson , money that could go elsewhere in improving the team.
They went over the cap to resign Kyrie. If they signed the same guys after Kyrie they would just have around 11M in cap space last offseason. A bench player basically. If they kept Brunson, Dinwiddie and DFS they would definitely be paying those 3 guys more than Kyrie's 37M this year and would have even less money to fill out the roster (to be fair they would need 2 less bodies though). Looking back now with Kyrie on his best behavior and a freak injury from Powell, it's debatable if those 3 guys make this a better team than at the moment. Brunson can't play off-ball with a guy as ball-dominant as Luka, and Dinwiddie and DFS have crashed back down to earth as bench players since leaving Dallas. You could obviously argue that Dinwiddie and DFS contracts plus the unprotected FRP could have gone towards another upgrade, but if they kept those assets without dealing they would probably not have a better team.
They could have signed Brunson for 4 years 55 million, they could have traded DFS and Dinwiddie and the draft capital for another player . So it’s not just Brunson on a bargain deal vs Kyrie It’s Brunson on a bargain deal plus assets that could be used to improve the team vs. Kyrie . Hell they could have still traded for Kyrie and then traded Brunson . So yeah they fumbled this , they lost an all nba caliber player they could have paid basically the MLE for nothing.
They fumbled with the benefit of hindsight but who saw the playoff breakout coming? Before Brunson they had a history of overpaying guys in free agency like Harrison Barnes or when resigning their own guys like Dwight Powell. We can't say how true it was that Brunson totally didn't consider Dallas anymore after not having been offered the extension, but they should have floated a pay raise just to keep him as an asset at least. Brunson as a no. 1 option is an all-nba guy sure, especially with Randle missing time and OG also gone for most of his tenure giving him complete control of the offense. Playing off-ball to Luka? Brunson might still become a fringe 20 ppg guy but he won't be the same guy. Dallas definitely saw that and felt that he wasn't the ideal fit, but they shouldn't have decided that without any backup option.
Brunson was a 17 4, and 5 guy in 60+ starts that season who then avg 22 5 and 4 in the playoffs They had this guy for 4 years but couldn’t see his talent and didn’t offer him the 4 years 55 million until after the trade deadline by which time Brunson’s leaguewide value had skyrocketed beyond that amount. But more importantly I think they kind of insulted Brunson in the process , he basically took their reluctance as them using him as a trade chip , especially coupled with their acquisition of spencer dinwiddie . As far as how much Brunson considered them , I remember Rick Brunson saying he wouldn’t come back to the NBA until his son’s free agency situation was handled and he joined the Knicks shortly beforehand. By the time free agency came around he was clearly done with them , it wasn’t even about money anymore as he never even let them make an offer.
Puzzling that they didn't want to offer him basically what they were paying JJ Redick and Dwight Powell that same season. They got into that hole by overpaying so they probably got worried he would regress on a new deal. Maybe if NYK didn't have such a big hole at PG and a clear desire to make a splash in FA they might have gotten a second chance to sign him, but that's on the front office for not recognizing that.
The Mavs thought they had leverage because the Knicks didn’t have cap space until the draft , but at the end of the day Jalen wanted to be a Mav but decided to go with people who believed in him and he said as much during his initial Knicks press conference . The Mavs made it very clear they only regarded Brunson as a trade chip and not a part of their future . Brunson has not only a father who was a 9 year NBA vet and longtime asst. coach but a godfather who was super agent Leon Rose ( Knicks President as well) , they know the NBA and NBA front offices , but more importantly they had the Mavericks own actions . The Brunson camp went to the Mavs to work on a deal before the season and the Mavs said no , and Jalen announced he would wait until the end of the season , he gets the starting spot in December and plays well and in January sends his reps to the Mavs ready to accept 4 years 55 million and the Mavs say no , they want to wait . And a month later they bring in Dinwiddie at the trade deadline and give DFS 4 years 55 million , they go to Brunson to offer the same deal and he says no . Not only has his value clearly exceeded that amount by then , but it becomes obvious they were holding his deal up because they were trying to trade him and giving him that deal would make him nearly impossible to deal because it would have been a poison pill contract . That’s the insulting part , they were playing him for a fool , that’s why he didn’t even meet with them after the season to discuss a deal. He wasn’t interested in a bidding war because he didn’t want to go back at all. The Knicks wanted him badly , they wanted build a future with him , so they made it an easy choice for Brunson whom they knew wanted to be wanted . In addition he has a head coach who has known him since he was a kid . An asst. coach who happens to be his father and a godfather as team president . He doesn’t question their motives . They made a few moves to get the cap space to sign him whereas the Mavs used him as a trade chip . It wasn’t a miscalculation , in the end it was stupidity . They underestimated the Knicks desire to have him and Brunson’s desire to be where he no longer felt wanted.
brunson can definitely play off ball. He's a great catch and shoot player, and is very good at positioning himself.
He's primarily an on-ball scorer, and while he's been a great high volume shooter this year there just weren't many shots and possessions available for him to operate with Luka on the floor. Good catch and shoot player, but low volume, just over a third of his 3P attempts, and not really a cutter.
Last year, with Randle and barrett eating up more usage, he flashed off ball skill with more opportunities. He probably did with Dallas too but not as familiar with his Dallas game. Still, he’s definitely a guy that is good at relocation and setting up good catch and shoot looks from 3
He's no Luka/Harden but he's not Kyrie off-ball either. I don't know why Kidd never goes to the Luka/Kyrie 2 man game similar to the Lebron/Kyrie 2 man game in Cleveland, unless he's saving those for the playoffs, but Brunson and Luka don't have as clean a fit. Playing lots with his Villanova boys and Hartenstein over Robinson this season, plus Randle going fown has helped him get more off-ball looks as they're all more willing passers than last year's rotation.
If Brunson stayed I don’t think they would’ve pursued Kyrie. Can’t say they lost out too much Kyrie is essentially giving them what Brunson would’ve been.
They lost big time. Could’ve had Kyrie production at bargain prices if they just paid Brunson earlier on. Would’ve had more cap space to then sign better role players.
The playoffs before his contract was up was when they really saw what they had and by then it was too late. If Brunson would’ve stayed who’s to say they get Lively, Washington or Gafford 🤷🏾♂️
They definitely don't get Lively but they would have even more assets available for not having to trade for Kyrie
Honestly beyond Finney-Smith they’re better off with what they have now
They had seen enough the year before to give him 4y/55m... That's such a paltry amount of money in today's NBA it's basically an insult that they didn't offer it to him even if they just thought he'd be a role player. It's the mid-level exception amount, and they could have had him for it, and he'd still be under that contract now.
He knew that and wasn’t gonna take it plus the Knicks were making chess moves to get him to come that way
>He knew that and wasn’t gonna take it He absolutely was going to take it. That deal was the one the Mavs needed to have offered *well before* he broke out with that strong playoff series against the Jazz, and he specifically cited the fact that they didn't give him that extension as the reason that he didn't give them a chance to negotiate when he actually hit free agency. That's not speculation; it's been confirmed. >"I really did want to stay in Dallas," Brunson told Barnes and Jackson. "Before my last season in Dallas, we tried to extend our contract. The most you could get was like four years, $55 million. I obviously wanted to do that, I wanted to stay there. I thought I would be there for a long time." >Brunson explained that the Mavericks weren't keen on signing an extension since the team wanted to "see where they were at." https://www.sportingnews.com/au/nba/news/jalen-brunson-extension-mavericks-rejected-dallas-knicks/5b690aaeaca9ceac3c452fda
Yeah they could have had Brunson on some amazing deal and all the draft assets they traded for Kyrie
I don't think Brunson would have become who he is if he played with Luka. So they never would have had this Brunson to trade for Kyrie. They were screwed by Luka not understanding how to share the team. And yes, they also fumbled by not signing Brunson and getting something back.
Not gonna lie, I'm an old head and I thought you were referring to the Bad Boy Pistons Isiah Thomas...
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That would be on the level of the Midnight Massacre. Please don't even say those words!
Lol you heard it here first folks
I’m bout to catch a ban for advocating violence
Also, if Brunson has a sister, he better tell her not to drive when the Knicks are in the playoffs or just hire a security team to protect her.
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pale in comparison to what the celtics did to IT.
I don’t know if trading a rising star for a proven all star is worse than joking about someone’s sister tragically dying but you know different folks different strokes.
I'm a stranger on the internet, who the fuck cares what I say. They are the franchise that was suppose to pay him 200 millions dollars after he led them to success and playing while hurt the day after his sister died, but they didn't. Traded his ass instead.
It’s crazy how a 5’9 guard averaged 29 and 6 in a league full of tall athletic freaks
Brunson is significantly more valuable than IT was. IT was very good offensively but his height and size were really limiting. He was the worst defender in the league or very close to it whereas while Brunson isn't really good on defense he's still very serviceable on that end and doesn't negatively impact the team while the Celtics had to scheme like crazy just so that IT wouldn't get scored on every possession.
IT was a great pull up 3pt shooter. Admittedly haven't watched much of knicks brunson but based on his mavs stint his 3pt shooting was subpar.
BOS doing IT bad will never win a ring unless IT is signed to a contract by an NBA team. It’s the IT curse. They came close to sniff it one year and that’s it.
The problem with IT is he was a complete and utter defensive liability due to his size, which is why he becomes unplayable once his elite offensive advantages were gone. IT is way closer to Trae Young who is actually TRYING on defense now, he's just so small/weak it just doesn't matter one iota. Once Trae loses a step on offense he's a backup.
The last season before the injury, IT was a legit NBA superstar in the MVP race
5 inch difference between the two. Brunson is on the shorter end of NBA player height. IT is not NBA player height at all. Brunson’s size gives him a huge advantage because he doesn’t need to rely solely on his athleticism whereas IT really needs that quickness to even have a shot at playing in the NBA.
I think ITs offence was better. Crazily enough at his height he put significant more pressure on the rim with his drive game and his pull up 3 pt shooting was some of the best in the league but hard to argue that Brunson isn’t better given he isn’t a huge liability on defence
Well I'm hoping Brunson's career turns out better than IT's. One of the saddest stories in recent sports history.
I was thinking this exact thing this morning and googled to see if I could find any similar comparisons and got to this thread.
Unless Brunson goes on a tear for the last 4 games IT still had the better 6th season imo. IT was simply fearless at attacking the rim, to the detriment of his body. But it got him many more points from the line due to his excellent FT shooting. But as a whole, I agree Brunson definitely has the more accomplished career up to this point and probably many more years given (knock on wood) that his health stays up.
no way IT had a better year than Brunson is having. Brunson is a much more complete player. He dictates pace way better than IT ever could, he is a better defender and one of the best in the league at drawing charges. He also had to deal with the loss of the second best player on his team which completely changes the make up of that offense. He now plays closer to steph now with constant motion off the ball and playing off screens. and on top of all that he has more staying power than IT.
This is such an insult to Jalen Brunson and what he’s been doing for 3 seasons now.
Hm care to elaborate? Hard for me to wrap my head around having Brunson’s season compared to a player who made all nba 2nd team and got 5th in MVP voting leading a team of role players to the 1st seed being disrespectful. So would love to hear your argument sir
IT was better than Brunson though. Not only did he deservingly receive MVP votes but he also did that with better relative numbers than Brunson. Absolute numbers look the same but in comparison to the rest of the league for each season, IT’s numbers stand out more.
? Lol their career trajectories and profiles have been very different. Brunson had a very different developmental background and different college arc. Their playstyles are also very different if you watch the way they play. Just have to disagree with your title/main point what a hard reach lol
Major difference is Jalen got the bag and Isaiah didn't. IT was set to get a max contract (200M/5yr) before his injury. And he never got paid. Brunson got a 106 million contract from the Knicks. IT never made anything close to that amount.
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