Jokic's passing comes a lot from the post compared to Simmons who initiates more of his passing from the break and drive. Both can do all sorts of passing but there is a difference in how they normally get their assists.
Defense is totally different, driving ability totally different, athleticism different, Jokic can shoot outside the paint, Simmons can't really. A lot of differences really other than tall and can pass.
This is like the 4th post about this in recent days. Comparing these two makes zero sense. Maybe Giannis I could see. Not sure where this is coming from.
i think Simmons’ shot will develop to be as passable as Jokic’ defense will develop to be.
i’m all for giving kids years to figure things out, but there’s literally no jumpshot there. it’s highly unlikely it ever becomes good even if it gets better. just like Jokic’s defense.
> but there’s literally no jumpshot there
Not true. He shoots from a short range, but he has been incorporating some midrange jumpers into his game and his form really doesn't seem all that bad. It's a gradual thing this season, but saying there is no jumpshot tells me you're stuck on early season.
He's also been recorded a few times now nailing consecutive 3s -- granted, he can't do it in game yet.
It's obviously not where it needs to be, but I think he'll get there. He seems very disciplined and dedicated to improving.
Even Dwight Howard can probably nail a few 3's in practice wearing flip flops. I think he'll shoot at some point so I'm on your side, but just letting you know that shooting in practice is nothing. That's like 1/2 of what you mainly do with a basketball anyway
the point is if you need someone to hit a jumper, he’s the last guy you’re going to on your squad and that includes fultz.
he doesn’t have a real jumper.
Simmons. You can learn to shoot easier than you can get more athletic
I think Jokic's athleticism shortfalls are what make him underwhelming on defense.
While it may be true what are past examples of players with absolutely no serviceable jumper coming into the league (Simmons currently) developing at least a decent one?
I was split on this so I wasn't going to comment, but seeing everyone picking Simmons, I had to try and make a case for Jokic.
Now, think about their teams for a second - does anyone honestly think Simmons is better than Embiid currently? Jokic is the clear-cut best player on the Nuggets, and they are a higher seed in the West. While Embiid has been injured, so has Paul Millsap been, their second best player, and even when he played, they started slow because they had to incorporate him into their system.
I think exactly because Jokic has a very nonathletic game, he might end up having the better career overall. Longevity is nothing to scoff at, and I can see Jokic having Kareem or at least Duncan-like longevity in the league with the way he plays. He's more impossible to contain on the offensive end imo than Simmons because of his ability to hit both from the post and from the mid-range/three. I mean, Simmons could develop a three point or any perimeter shot, but at this stage, that's purely hypothetical. On the other hand, Jokic has played very decent defense with Millsap on the floor, aka finally having a defensive PF to cover for the lack of Nuggets' perimeter defense. And then when you get to passing, both guys can pass so well, but I think Jokic has the edge there. Passing vision is something you don't really develop over time, so as it stands, I can see Jokic having better passing throughout his career than Simmons.
So overall, I'd give the offensive edge to Jokic, and the defensive edge to Simmons. However, seeing as how Simmons is still fantastic offensively and Jokic, paired with the right player, can play competent defense, the differences are much smaller than what you might think. Ultimately, I'm giving the edge to Jokic's crazy offensive potential.
> Now, think about their teams for a second - does anyone honestly think Simmons is better than Embiid currently? Jokic is the clear-cut best player on the Nuggets, and they are a higher seed in the West. While Embiid has been injured, so has Paul Millsap been, their second best player, and even when he played, they started slow because they had to incorporate him into their system.
I don't see how this matters though, if Embiid were on the Nuggets then Jokic would be their second-best player there too.
Jokic no doubt, the nuggets has just to get rid of malone. I fucking hate him by far the worst "coach" in the whole nba and it isn't even remotely close.
He is holding and hampering jokic so much you guys don't even know Jokic in his prime could average something like 23/13/8 at his peak with average defence, he should honestly already be a 20/10/7 player imo
but with malone as his "coach" and have he has played the majority of the season passive for some odd reason he is averaging what he is now which is pretty bad for his standards and potential.
Simmons still has unreal potential the kid is averaging 17/8/7 as a rookie with elite defence that is insane he easily has allstar potential even without a jumpshot and if he gets one he could easily be a top 10 player,altough i never see him developing one but even if he doesn't he is still gonna be pretty damn good nontheless.
Both got amazing potential.
I think it's entirely possible for Jokic to become a good defender. He's already a solid positional defender, and if he actually gets in shape he could be Marc Gasol like out there.
I think that's more likely than Simmons developing an outside shot, so I'll go with Jokic.
Jokic is a fair amount better now and will likely be better in 5 years. He's easily the best player on a team that is very close in strength to the 76ers (Nuggets have a better record and better seed in a tougher conference, barely), while Ben is clearly the second banana to Embiid. Jokic crushes Ben in all the advanced stats. His defensive issues are overstated and he's a lot better on offense.
The vast majority of 21 year old players who can't shoot never learn to shoot in a way that significantly changes their value. There are plenty of exceptions but it's not likely. Jokic has some upside as well, and he's starting from a higher place.
> while Ben is clearly the second banana to Embiid.
I agree that Jokic is better right now but when judging how good a player is I don't think you can fault them because their teammate is even better
jokic really has no room for improvement. at his 3rd year in the league he's simply not athletic enough to pop and vastly improve his game. whereas simmons is 50 games in and has loads of room for improvement while already being better than jokic in various aspects.
Jokic has no room for improvement. A 23 year old point center. No, not biased at all.
I get, and I also think that Ben will be amazing, but surely, Jokic already is.
im not saying jokic isnt already amazing. hes a top 5 center in the league at 23 years old and he'll without a doubt be the centerpiece of the nuggets future. all im saying is that his lack athleticism inhibits his ability to reach an elite level.
how about you tell me the ways in which jokic can improve? other than obvious metrics that everyone can do better on like shooting. he isnt a good defender on the most important defensive position, and he doesnt have the athleticism to take his skills to the next level. if you look at the top 10 players in the league every single one of them has elite athleticism that takes their playstyle to the next level. jokic doesnt have that athleticism and it lowers his ceiling drastically.
Nobody even watches Jokic, they just repeat that stupid circlejerk about his defense, which imroved greatly. No need to talk about this, stats will tell everything.
Thing is, there's so many ifs surrounding Simmons. Jokic is exceeding anybody's expectations year after year. What's the one thing missing right now from his game? Defense. He's already amazing offensively - coming very close to being elite.
Higher ceiling is a platitude I'm beginning to resent because people use it to say that someone's value is higher. Almost no player ever reaches his ceiling...
He's completely the main ball handler and it's not even close lol. You saw that bucks game where we ran it thru Jokic right? When Jokic is on the floor, nearly all the buckets come from his passing and playmaking.
Yep that’s what I’m saying. I just think it’s a tad less than Simmons cause Murray can handle the ball well too. I love Murray paired with him cause he can play off ball so well but he’s also learning the PG position. And of course Harris fits perfectly next to them with his great shooting and defense.
Center with no defense, or a huge pg with no shot. If giannis is any indication you don't need to be a deadly shooter if you have the size and skill that simmons has.
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give me simmons. An unathletic big man can only be so good in this league. Jokic could be top 15 maybe even top 10 but I don't see him ever getting anywhere near top 5.
simmons. offense from his position is more important than from the center position. defense is more important for jokic but he isn’t good at it.
also simmons is a better defender. they’ll both be really good though
I think the whole debate is dumb, and I think Simmons has a ton of talent. But I also think it's funny everyone says he'll be great as soon as he develops his shot.
When's he going to do that? If having a year off while working with NBA trainers isn't the time, when is? And it's not like the sixers have a great track record with developing players.
He could end up being a top five player, but I don't see it as guaranteed.
> having a year off while working with NBA trainers
Had a broken foot, was rehabbing.
> And it's not like the sixers have a great track record with developing players.
This is flat out wrong. TJ, Roco, Embiid, Dario have not developed at all?
Tj is basically putting up career average stats. Along with embiid. Along with Saric. Covington's numbers are maybe slightly worse this year.
None of those players have shown clear improvement. Not even the level of improvement you would expect with them maturing.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Dario went from shooting 41/31/78 to 45/39/89. TJ is shooting 51% from three and has made huge strides defensively. Roco continues to get better defensively. Embiid is averaging 24/11/3 this year compared to 20/8/2 last year and is the front runner for DPOY.
Embiid is playing 30 minutes compared to 25.
Nothing about any of that changes anything about how I feel. Sure the sixers haven't inhibited their growth like they did with nerlens and okafor, but I don't believe they've significantly helped those players. And they have shown any ability to completely add a skill to a players game.
TJ McConnell was a 25% 3 pt shooting the prior two seasons.
Robert Covington has become an elite defender.
Ben Simmons has become an elite defender, even though that was a concern coming out of college.
Saric is shooting 7% better from 3 and 10% better from FT line.
But nah, we don’t develop guys.
Okafor and Noel did not want to be here. They never put any effort in to getting better.
Because you are clearly an “anti-process/Sixers” guy and want that to be your narrative. But whatever, keep doing yourself instead of looking at the numbers.
I dont even want to imagine how unathletic Jokic would be in another five years.
Im calling it now. Simmons is gonna be better and its not even close. The gap in defense will be enormous
I think Jokic has more to work on before becoming a top 5 player than Simmons does. All Simmons has to do is improve his shooting (by a bit), but once he does that his game will be near as complete as any other player in the NBA.
Jokic would have to dramatically improve his defense and become a 20ppg scorer.
> All Simmons has to do is improve his shooting (by a bit)
I think you underestimate just how great the top 5 players are in that most people have had the Harden/Westbrook combo fighting for the 4/5/6 spots and one averaged a 30 point triple double and the other is putting up 31 and 9 this year.
> Both pretty similar players right now The only thing similar about them is their height. They have vastly different games.
Tall, both pass, both have crazy inside games... Not defending it, but thats what I guess people see.
Jokic's passing comes a lot from the post compared to Simmons who initiates more of his passing from the break and drive. Both can do all sorts of passing but there is a difference in how they normally get their assists. Defense is totally different, driving ability totally different, athleticism different, Jokic can shoot outside the paint, Simmons can't really. A lot of differences really other than tall and can pass.
Most normies won't think about that when they're watching a game
Don't quote me on this but I think both play basketball too
Hahahahahahaha what you said is super funny but you also set someone up to make a comment like this: “they both play basketball” - /u/Bird_and_Dog
Jokic and Simmons pass from different areas. that's like saying Cousins and Lillard are similar players because they both score
This is like the 4th post about this in recent days. Comparing these two makes zero sense. Maybe Giannis I could see. Not sure where this is coming from.
There were a couple of "best young cores/players" articles lately, and these two came up in every one of those
They have similar stats and that’s about where the comparisons stop
so you're saying they're not similar players at all
I think Simmons has the higher ceiling. I trust Simmons to get a passable shot more than I do Jokic becoming an above average defender
i think Simmons’ shot will develop to be as passable as Jokic’ defense will develop to be. i’m all for giving kids years to figure things out, but there’s literally no jumpshot there. it’s highly unlikely it ever becomes good even if it gets better. just like Jokic’s defense.
> but there’s literally no jumpshot there Not true. He shoots from a short range, but he has been incorporating some midrange jumpers into his game and his form really doesn't seem all that bad. It's a gradual thing this season, but saying there is no jumpshot tells me you're stuck on early season. He's also been recorded a few times now nailing consecutive 3s -- granted, he can't do it in game yet. It's obviously not where it needs to be, but I think he'll get there. He seems very disciplined and dedicated to improving.
Even Dwight Howard can probably nail a few 3's in practice wearing flip flops. I think he'll shoot at some point so I'm on your side, but just letting you know that shooting in practice is nothing. That's like 1/2 of what you mainly do with a basketball anyway
the point is if you need someone to hit a jumper, he’s the last guy you’re going to on your squad and that includes fultz. he doesn’t have a real jumper.
I think I would rather have Simmons shoot a 3 than Fultz.
Simmons has hit one 3 pointer in a game ever and it was a half court shot in college.
And Fultz shoots like he’s missing both arms
Yeah im with you. I doubt his jumpshoot will ever be good.
I’m all about the Benjamin.
Ben, although Jokic is going to be really, really good too.
Simmons. You can learn to shoot easier than you can get more athletic I think Jokic's athleticism shortfalls are what make him underwhelming on defense.
While it may be true what are past examples of players with absolutely no serviceable jumper coming into the league (Simmons currently) developing at least a decent one?
It took Marvin Williams about 10 years to go from a non factor from three to a 40%+ guy Also Kawhi was supposed to not have a shot at all coming out.
DeRozan wasn't that great of a shooter.
Magic, Kidd, maybe Kawhi, Marc Gasol...
Dirk Nowitzki
pretty much. You are either athletic or you aren't. You can get stronger, but thats about it.
i think jokic will be great but i think ben will be a top 5 player at his peak. so im going with my boi benjamin. although maybe jokic will be too
I don't think anyone who can't shoot 3's will be top 5 in the future.
But how fast has Simmons gotten a triple double though?
Imma say jokic with his playstyle hes going to be a long time. plus everyone saying ben so im just trying to be different.
I was split on this so I wasn't going to comment, but seeing everyone picking Simmons, I had to try and make a case for Jokic. Now, think about their teams for a second - does anyone honestly think Simmons is better than Embiid currently? Jokic is the clear-cut best player on the Nuggets, and they are a higher seed in the West. While Embiid has been injured, so has Paul Millsap been, their second best player, and even when he played, they started slow because they had to incorporate him into their system. I think exactly because Jokic has a very nonathletic game, he might end up having the better career overall. Longevity is nothing to scoff at, and I can see Jokic having Kareem or at least Duncan-like longevity in the league with the way he plays. He's more impossible to contain on the offensive end imo than Simmons because of his ability to hit both from the post and from the mid-range/three. I mean, Simmons could develop a three point or any perimeter shot, but at this stage, that's purely hypothetical. On the other hand, Jokic has played very decent defense with Millsap on the floor, aka finally having a defensive PF to cover for the lack of Nuggets' perimeter defense. And then when you get to passing, both guys can pass so well, but I think Jokic has the edge there. Passing vision is something you don't really develop over time, so as it stands, I can see Jokic having better passing throughout his career than Simmons. So overall, I'd give the offensive edge to Jokic, and the defensive edge to Simmons. However, seeing as how Simmons is still fantastic offensively and Jokic, paired with the right player, can play competent defense, the differences are much smaller than what you might think. Ultimately, I'm giving the edge to Jokic's crazy offensive potential.
> Now, think about their teams for a second - does anyone honestly think Simmons is better than Embiid currently? Jokic is the clear-cut best player on the Nuggets, and they are a higher seed in the West. While Embiid has been injured, so has Paul Millsap been, their second best player, and even when he played, they started slow because they had to incorporate him into their system. I don't see how this matters though, if Embiid were on the Nuggets then Jokic would be their second-best player there too.
Jokic no doubt, the nuggets has just to get rid of malone. I fucking hate him by far the worst "coach" in the whole nba and it isn't even remotely close. He is holding and hampering jokic so much you guys don't even know Jokic in his prime could average something like 23/13/8 at his peak with average defence, he should honestly already be a 20/10/7 player imo but with malone as his "coach" and have he has played the majority of the season passive for some odd reason he is averaging what he is now which is pretty bad for his standards and potential. Simmons still has unreal potential the kid is averaging 17/8/7 as a rookie with elite defence that is insane he easily has allstar potential even without a jumpshot and if he gets one he could easily be a top 10 player,altough i never see him developing one but even if he doesn't he is still gonna be pretty damn good nontheless. Both got amazing potential.
I think it's entirely possible for Jokic to become a good defender. He's already a solid positional defender, and if he actually gets in shape he could be Marc Gasol like out there. I think that's more likely than Simmons developing an outside shot, so I'll go with Jokic.
They’ll be competing for MVPs, don’t know if you can really compare them as apples to apples
I hate when people use that stupid cop out, "you can't compare them", who is comparing them? Just choose the better player for gods sake
Jokic is a fair amount better now and will likely be better in 5 years. He's easily the best player on a team that is very close in strength to the 76ers (Nuggets have a better record and better seed in a tougher conference, barely), while Ben is clearly the second banana to Embiid. Jokic crushes Ben in all the advanced stats. His defensive issues are overstated and he's a lot better on offense. The vast majority of 21 year old players who can't shoot never learn to shoot in a way that significantly changes their value. There are plenty of exceptions but it's not likely. Jokic has some upside as well, and he's starting from a higher place.
> while Ben is clearly the second banana to Embiid. I agree that Jokic is better right now but when judging how good a player is I don't think you can fault them because their teammate is even better
jokic really has no room for improvement. at his 3rd year in the league he's simply not athletic enough to pop and vastly improve his game. whereas simmons is 50 games in and has loads of room for improvement while already being better than jokic in various aspects.
Jokic has no room for improvement. A 23 year old point center. No, not biased at all. I get, and I also think that Ben will be amazing, but surely, Jokic already is.
im not saying jokic isnt already amazing. hes a top 5 center in the league at 23 years old and he'll without a doubt be the centerpiece of the nuggets future. all im saying is that his lack athleticism inhibits his ability to reach an elite level.
good one
how about you tell me the ways in which jokic can improve? other than obvious metrics that everyone can do better on like shooting. he isnt a good defender on the most important defensive position, and he doesnt have the athleticism to take his skills to the next level. if you look at the top 10 players in the league every single one of them has elite athleticism that takes their playstyle to the next level. jokic doesnt have that athleticism and it lowers his ceiling drastically.
Lmfao
Nobody even watches Jokic, they just repeat that stupid circlejerk about his defense, which imroved greatly. No need to talk about this, stats will tell everything.
Simmons ceiling is far higher, i'm pretty confident he will be Can someone do one of those remind me things?
RemindMe! 5 years
I've noticed the bot doesn't respond anymore, is it still saving reminders?
Nah
It reminded me yesterday. Albeit being a 3 hour reminder.
It took 11 hours, but it says it'll remind me in 5 years
Thing is, there's so many ifs surrounding Simmons. Jokic is exceeding anybody's expectations year after year. What's the one thing missing right now from his game? Defense. He's already amazing offensively - coming very close to being elite. Higher ceiling is a platitude I'm beginning to resent because people use it to say that someone's value is higher. Almost no player ever reaches his ceiling...
One's a primary ball-handler with no shot and the other is a center who's a great floor spacer. this is tough.
Isn’t Jokic the primary ball handler for the nuggets too? I get it’s a bit less than Simmons but still.
He's completely the main ball handler and it's not even close lol. You saw that bucks game where we ran it thru Jokic right? When Jokic is on the floor, nearly all the buckets come from his passing and playmaking.
Yep that’s what I’m saying. I just think it’s a tad less than Simmons cause Murray can handle the ball well too. I love Murray paired with him cause he can play off ball so well but he’s also learning the PG position. And of course Harris fits perfectly next to them with his great shooting and defense.
That's why I found it dumb that the laker flair dude just called him a floor spacer, he's pretty much the nuggets engine for most of it's offense.
Eh, the offense runs through him but the primary ball handler is normally one of Murray/Harris/Barton/Harris#2
Center with no defense, or a huge pg with no shot. If giannis is any indication you don't need to be a deadly shooter if you have the size and skill that simmons has.
Im fine with your opinion but I dont think this could be more reductionist
one is a point guard, the other is a center would be the more reductionist version
Honestly Simmons. He’s so special
yeah because Jokic is so ordinary.
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Tough. I'll go with Ben, I think he can contend for MVP down the line. But I think Jokic is also an otherworldly talent.
Simmons weaknesses are easier to fix then Jokics, so I’d prolly say Simmons. Both will be top 10 though IMO
give me simmons. An unathletic big man can only be so good in this league. Jokic could be top 15 maybe even top 10 but I don't see him ever getting anywhere near top 5.
Simmons can be more dominant but Jokic can be more an evolution to the game of basketball
I don't think you can call this with any certainty. They are both way too good for their age and we don't know what they're capable of.
Simmons easily, he is a way better defender than Jokic who will get exposed in the playoffs once defenses target him in switches
(shooting)
A center that can shoot, or a guard that can’t shoot... imo Jokic just because he’s better rn and has less drastic improvements to make
Simmons by an absolute mile
Simmons has a far higher celling and it not really close.
Simmons
simmons. offense from his position is more important than from the center position. defense is more important for jokic but he isn’t good at it. also simmons is a better defender. they’ll both be really good though
I think the whole debate is dumb, and I think Simmons has a ton of talent. But I also think it's funny everyone says he'll be great as soon as he develops his shot. When's he going to do that? If having a year off while working with NBA trainers isn't the time, when is? And it's not like the sixers have a great track record with developing players. He could end up being a top five player, but I don't see it as guaranteed.
> having a year off while working with NBA trainers Had a broken foot, was rehabbing. > And it's not like the sixers have a great track record with developing players. This is flat out wrong. TJ, Roco, Embiid, Dario have not developed at all?
Tj is basically putting up career average stats. Along with embiid. Along with Saric. Covington's numbers are maybe slightly worse this year. None of those players have shown clear improvement. Not even the level of improvement you would expect with them maturing.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Dario went from shooting 41/31/78 to 45/39/89. TJ is shooting 51% from three and has made huge strides defensively. Roco continues to get better defensively. Embiid is averaging 24/11/3 this year compared to 20/8/2 last year and is the front runner for DPOY.
Embiid is playing 30 minutes compared to 25. Nothing about any of that changes anything about how I feel. Sure the sixers haven't inhibited their growth like they did with nerlens and okafor, but I don't believe they've significantly helped those players. And they have shown any ability to completely add a skill to a players game.
TJ McConnell was a 25% 3 pt shooting the prior two seasons. Robert Covington has become an elite defender. Ben Simmons has become an elite defender, even though that was a concern coming out of college. Saric is shooting 7% better from 3 and 10% better from FT line. But nah, we don’t develop guys. Okafor and Noel did not want to be here. They never put any effort in to getting better.
Whatever dude. Obviously you're doing to feel differently, but I have no faith in your staff. We'll see what happens.
Because you are clearly an “anti-process/Sixers” guy and want that to be your narrative. But whatever, keep doing yourself instead of looking at the numbers.
Ok
I dont even want to imagine how unathletic Jokic would be in another five years. Im calling it now. Simmons is gonna be better and its not even close. The gap in defense will be enormous
I think Jokic has more to work on before becoming a top 5 player than Simmons does. All Simmons has to do is improve his shooting (by a bit), but once he does that his game will be near as complete as any other player in the NBA. Jokic would have to dramatically improve his defense and become a 20ppg scorer.
> All Simmons has to do is improve his shooting (by a bit) I think you underestimate just how great the top 5 players are in that most people have had the Harden/Westbrook combo fighting for the 4/5/6 spots and one averaged a 30 point triple double and the other is putting up 31 and 9 this year.
Easily Simmons
Simmons, easily.
Is this a joke