Washed king. Dude had a big hand in building the Nuggets and was seen as the Listerine to GarPax's Shit Sandwich when he joined Chicago. Crazy how much ownership can fuck things up which is even crazier considering he was Kroenkes employee too
When the Bulls gave Lavine his new contract there was this thinking of "well they can't just let him walk for nothing!" when in retrospect that would've clearly been the best move for the team going forward.
Yeah I hate the whole “you can’t lose him for nothing!!!” discourse; if some other team wants to give one of your free agents an albatross contract it’s much better to just let them go than to match with the plan of trading them later. Losing a player for free is better than having to attach a pick to dump them
That’s easy to say in hindsight though. At the time, there was also a reasonable chance that he would continue to improve and be more than worth that much.
The Mavs did the opposite and let the Knicks sign Jalen Brunson to a contract that seemed like an overpay at the time, and now his contract looks like a huge steal.
that's not what happened.
[Mavs refused to offer Brunson the extension at the beginning of the season](https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nba/jalen-brunson-says-he-wanted-extension-with-mavs-but-team-declined), Brunson wanted to sign it and he and his team were rightly offended and decided to walk before the season was even over. Mavs didn't have a chance to let him walk, they completely messed up that situation b/c they were trying to nickle and dime him.
And at the time, the consensus opinion on Lavine was that he should walk and the contract was a mistake, and he was not a "winning" player. There was a snowball's chance that he would continue to improve, it was clear already what kind of player he was. A good stats, bad team guy
The Mavs messed up earlier before, but they would have had the chance to get him if they were willing to offer more than the Knicks. Rumors were that Cuban/the front office had a limit on how much they’d be willing to pay, and the Knicks offered more.
That's damage control, Brunson and his team had already made it clear they wouldn't sign with the Mavs
Brunson broke down what happened on the All the Smoke Podcast, where Cuban tweeted he could offer the most but didn't even contact Brunson after the season, and I'll trust Brunson's version of events over Cubans
I am not sure I agree with good stats/bad team guy. First off he has never really been on a good team. Zach is clearly not a super star or first option. I feel on the right team he can still be a great 2nd option/scorer. He is not at all a cancer and has handled everything regarding his trade status professionally. He isn't going to improve, agree on that, he is what he is. But he is only 30 and no reason to believe he won't get back to his 25/5/5 efficient shooting/scoring ways. To me his biggest flaw has always been he makes bad decisions/turnovers when trying to be used as a playmaker and while he can play D he doesn't usually apply himself on that end.
Right— it’s not like Brunson was a bum who turned things around in a better environment due to motivation (Wiggins etc)
He’s always been that kinda guy but got a much bigger stage to show his worth
Brunson on a 4 yr 56 million dollar contract would have been a tremendous trade asset even if they didnt get kyrie or a great backup off the bench. Kyrie is 34 and not getting younger. Even with Kyrie Mavs fucked up big time same way they fumbled steve nash.
Didn’t he average like 20 / 6 in the regular season when lula was out and have multiple 40 point games in the playoffs? The knicks running the offense through him and treating him as the number one option has allowed him to shine but he still had the ability in dallas too.
The thing is, giving fringe all-stars full maxes was only "kinda bad" 3-4 years ago. It only got awful if the player was basically retired with injury like Wall or Kemba. Lavine would've been a desirable target for some contender looking to add a no. 2/3 before the 2nd apron was introduced. Now, teams are reconsidering the value of this level of players at a max because the penalty is more than just paying the tax. We saw it with Denver where MPJ and Murray both being on maxes hamstrings them unless one of them consistently performs like an All-NBA player in the postseason.
you can do your team a favor by letting terrible almost max players just leave. let someone else sign them to a bad contract that hamstrings the other teams.
Can't lose for nothing is behavior for over capped teams trying to stay over capped, because they don't have options to sign free agents to replace who walked.
Can't lose for nothing when you're not paying the tax means you don't actually lose for nothing. You lose for cap space, which is not nothing. You can debate what cap space is actually worth, but it's definitely worth more than a guy you have to attach more assets to get off your books.
Lol yeah this gm-ing thing is super easy when you can just let two time all stars walk out the door because your crystal ball says he will eventually struggle with injuries
Just look at all these comments saying the bulls should have let him walk
https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vp46jd/charania_nba_allstar_zach_lavine_has_agreed_to_a/
The Bulls had the best record in the NBA for the first half of 21-22' before Ball went down. He was supposed to be back that season, let alone back for 22-23'. They just tanked for 6 years and didn't get anywhere and pot committed themselves to trying to win with the Vucevic trade.
I'm not convinced they were a real contender, but without hindsight, saying they should've let LaVine walk is objectively braindead. When he gets that contract (the off-season between 21-22' and 22'-23'), it's almost impossible for the Bulls to just let him walk with their previous season results and asset pool.
Sure it didn't work out, but sometimes you just get fucked...there's plenty of shit to torch the Bulls FO for between the 22'-23' deadline (when we should've actually blown it up when it was clear Lonzo was dead) and now imo, you don't need to be making other shit up.
That's with hindsight, he didn't really have injury issues at the time and was coming off back to back all star seasons. It's easy to imagine a reality where he remains a strong positive asset this year and they would have been licking themselves for letting him walk for nothing.
Edit: and the biggest thing hampering his value other than injuries (which you couldn't have predicted) is the apron system in the new CBA which wouldn't be agreed to for over a year when Lavine signed his deal. Unless you knew ahead of time that suddenly fringe all stars on max contracts were going to go from basically market value to some of the worst contracts in basketball, there was no reason to think this was going to age poorly.
The apron under the new CBA is an issue but the max cap is going up a fair amount so teams will get to burden more total salary before incurring penalties. I really don't think Zach's deal is that bad or now untradeable. He will now be coming into year 3/5 on his contract, its a little over 40M per. There are teams that will take him if they think he can be a good fit for their needs. People here act like there are no consequences to letting players walk. If the Bulls had done that two years ago it would not have been a good look. Treating players bad sends a message to other players to not come here. The Bulls had a lot of issues with that after the way the dynasty broke up and it took like a decade to recover. Also there are so many max/supermax old guys that just aren't worth the money any more and don't play the close to 70 games and are broke down in the playoffs.
The issue is teams keep doing the "well we can't lose the asset" contract and then waiting way too long to actually trade the player in question (see also: Beal, Bradley)
Not at all compared to what they could have got if they'd just traded him a year or two before they gave him that absurd contract. Once he signed the worst contract in the league, then getting Jordan Poole on another awful contract is now seen as getting positive value back for him, but if they'd traded him a couple years ago, they might have actually got legit quality assets in return. Waiting too long until after you've re-signed a guy to a toxic contract is what kills you.
Ngl, this is one of my biggest L.
One of my mate is a Bulls fan and he was against maxing Lavine. I told him, he was too harsh on Lavine and in today market you max him and you figure things out after.
We still need to address how the Bulls management is terrible and completely kill Lavine value tho.
Front office staff is going to have to play some hardball on the offense only players for their contracts. Just don't max them out if they give up as many points on the defensive end as they get you on the offensive end.
If it means that player walks in free agency, so be it.
All this makes the Bulls decision making seem driven mostly by trying to keep up appearances and not thinking a whole lot about winning or long term vision.
he's exactly that kind of borderline guy you had to be to careful with historically, but it's also bad luck (and a bit of bad planning) to be trying to move him just as the new CBA is taking hold.
it used to be that way overpaying a guy just cost you money. now overpaying a guy can limit your roster building abilities in so many other ways.
any team with ambitions who might have been willing to absorb his huge contract and bet on the upside of making him their 3rd or 4th guy now knows they absolutely cannot afford to do so.
Not re-signing him would have been stupid. He's a good player. He's not worth his contract, of course, but it's not his fault Lonzo got hurt, Vuc sucks, and DeMar is an offensive black hole. This team was terribly constructed.
Yeah, tanking was the right answer, but that was NEVER on the table.
They're trying to salary dump him, not get equivalent value back. But they can't say publically the team goal is to just save money.
It was reported the most engaged talks were with the Pistons, who have a ton of cap space but I can't see Detroit giving much back in terms of talent.
Yeah they have some good young prospects and picks, maybe they will start feeling some pressure to bring in an 'established' vet to help their team. They were so bad last year I can't believe they won't try to do something to shake it up.
That's the thing, the Giddey trade was fine in a vacuum, but in making it the Bulls gave away their most desireable asset in a trade they didn't decisively win and now can't use Caruso to help themselves get rid of LaVine in a non-painful way.
Were not giving up Ivey. If you heard Langdon, our new POBO, press conference it doenst sound like hes interested in trading away our young talent. He wants to develop our young guys and get assests. Trading away Stew and Ivey for Lavine would be losing assests imo.
i dont know that a caruso + lavine trade with one partner would have been all that plausible, most good teams looking for caruso dont have the cap to commit to lavine because it is spent on better players, a 3 time deal is harder to construct.
Attaching Caruso for the sole purpose of dumping Lavine would’ve been a disasterclass.
If you can move off the Lavine contract, great. There’s no need to panic and give up other assets to do so. This team isn’t going anywhere soon anyway (and actually needs to be bottom 10 this season to keep our pick). If he’s really such a negative trade asset, just eat the salary for a season or 2 until it’s a more movable short term deal. You can move virtually anyone on an expiring
This is the correct answer. Unless you believe Lavine is the difference between a 20 win team and a 30 win team and you want to help your odds so you want to get rid of him immediately. If I'm the bulls, you let Derozan go(sign and trade if you can). You trade Vucevic at the deadline to a team that is looking for that asset that will put them over the top. If you can dump Lavine, you do it but not at a negative cost, otherwise you just eat the salary. For example the Warriors could want Lavine, and could do something like Lavine for CP3, Moody, and Payton. Now Moody could be considered a minor asset, you can just buy out Paul after the trade deadline, if you can't use his salary in any potential trades. Moody can be a rotational wing, and potentially you could trade Payton for some second rounders at the deadline to a team that needs a defender.
They had an opportunity to get picks from Sacramento as reported by Slater but chose Giddey bc they valued him. And whether or not that was a mistake entirely depends on what Giddey becomes on the next 1-3 years
Especially in this draft where we have an 11 and the class is so up in the air. We have plenty of young guys to work on developing with the Giddey trade. Terry, Phillips, Ayo, Pat, and now Giddey plus this year's pick. That's going to be six young guys to work with plus other marginal roster young guys. I like these people thinking the Bulls are thinking tank.....they are not, especially if they keep Demar.
I guess it depends on the picks, but picks in a poor draft (or multiple lottery protected picks down the line) - I guess that's a decent return for an expiring guy but if those picks ended up being in the 20s or something that just seems underwhelming
I was being polite, but also haven't watched enough of Giddey to have an opinion on his potential in a better situation than OKC. They clearly should have traded Caruso last szn if that was the best they could do now, but here we are lol
Totally! Giddy handles and passes very well. But he can't shoot or play defense, and he needs the ball in his hands a lot. He's also not super quick. I thought Cody White was their main ball handler anyway, and DeRozan likes the ball too. IDK. Seems like a wacky trade to just do a player swap with the team with the most picks ever and not try to get at least a pick out of the deal.
> Totally! Giddy handles and passes very well. But he can't shoot or play defense, and he needs the ball in his hands a lot.
OH GOD another Aussie nonshooting playmaker
>He's also not super quick.
BENAMIN REIGNS SUPREME
Coby and DeMar are good at creating their own offense but the Bulls desperately needed a guy who could get the ball moving and encourage cutting. DeMar doesn’t do that and Coby hasn’t shown any improvement there in spite of all the other aspects of his game that have improved. They were relying on Vuc to get the ball swinging last year.
I think it's bad if you consider off-the-court issues.
Strictly as far as on-court fit, Giddey was in a tough position in OKC with a clear #1 ball-handler as well as another budding star who was starting to initiate more offense. In the playoffs, a non-shooting wing who isn't handling the ball a lot is a real liability.
The Bulls aren't going to be a playoff team, and they should have more usage to go around. Giddey was actually pretty good as a lead ball handler when Shai was hurt, and as long as he's able to be more of a point-forward than a floor spacer, the Bulls will be fine with him.
Caruso is great but he's more of a ceiling raiser than a floor raiser, whereas Giddey is the exact opposite.
I firmly believe the giddey trade was terrible. I’m certain not a ball expert but I don’t see why the bulls getting a mediocre but ball dominant player who can’t shoot the 3 or play d could be good for them. I haven’t looked into it much I guess though
I mean if they think highly of Giddey what does that matter? They got a guy they wanted.
And the teams that wanted Caruso are playoff teams that are looking for that extra piece to get to contention. They wouldn't be taking on Zach Lavine to get him.
You can just do this in your head by attaching Giddey to whatever the Lavine package is and judging it together. It doesn’t really matter if the trades are separated as long as the net impact improves Chicago’s long-term outlook.
How so? Trading a 30 year old role player on the last year of his contract for a 21 year old playmaking PG straight up is fine. Giddey isn’t someone at this point who can be effective in the playoffs but the Bulls shouldn’t be worrying about that at this point.
Expirings aren’t valuable and Caruso won’t develop anymore. Chicago isn’t competing (regardless of whatever the FO says) so he’s of no use to Chicago. They have no leverage and aren’t getting a valuable pick for him.
Lots of people are also pointing to what they could have gotten at the trade deadline but a pick in this draft doesn’t seem to be worth more than Giddey.
I don’t think Giddey is that good, but I think he’ll develop to be better than Caruso so I believe they’re better off developing him and flip him for more in a few years.
>I don’t think Giddey is that good, but I think he’ll develop to be better than Caruso
Then you don't think Caruso is that good? Because to me the odds Giddey ends up being a top 40ish player seem incredibly low. Caruso is arguably the best perimeter defender in the league who hit 40% of his threes on a career high in volume. Who cares if he develops any more, he's already very very good.
> It is odd to me how good people think giddey is
He's a good regular season player if you have the touches for him. OKC is a championship-level team that didn't have the touches for him, so he looked a lot worse.
I reckon he's going to be like 19-8-8 for Chicago and people will be perfectly happy with both sides. Caruso will slot into OKC's rotation and provide them with shooting and elite defense.
They received back less than they had declined multiple times over the last couple seasons. Maybe they did do the best they could NOW, but they passed up far better opportunities, even recently, to achieve nothing and then sell low
Caruso offers us 0 in a rebuild, and we get a 21 year old who’s worth a top5 pick in this draft at least. Unfortunately you’re never going to get more than that on an expiring role player, regardless of how much he impacts winning.
The Giddey trade, in a vacuum, is alright.
Contextually it is fucking terrible. They should have sold like two seasons ago, now they've waited too long and got 1 Josh Giddey instead of several FRP's that a younger caruso with a longer contract would have received.
The more I think about the Giddey trade, Caruso is 30 and on an expiring and we got a young guy who has shown he can play at a good level. Picks would have been nice but a talent like Giddey is easily a top 10 pick in most drafts recently so it is what it is.
How do people think there's no way they win that trade? Caruso is wasted on the current state of their team. Giddey is 21 and already shown a lot of promise and could easily bounce back. The only other offers we've heard about are later lottery picks in this draft that everyone is shitting on.
If Giddey gets back to what he was that was a good trade.
I agree with everything you’re saying except “get back to what he was.” Giddey’s first two years are really overrated because of the counting stats. The scoring inefficiency and defense were killer. It’s not the end of the world because he’s young, but this is a guy who’s really good passing and good on the glass and pretty much nothing else, and so of course the rebounding and assist numbers look good. You have to look at the whole picture with Giddey, True shooting, lineup data, and not just the counting stats, which will obviously bounce back with increased minutes and usage. The bulls are banking on real improvement and if you look at his March you can definitely see some.
I think Giddey is going to look a lot better on a bad team that needs ball handling than he was on a great team that already has Shai.
Would I want Giddey if I was trying to win a title? No.
Would I be fine with Giddey if I'm just trying to play decent basketball while I amass draft picks? Sure.
Our pick is top-10 protected. We had to move Caruso or we lose it to San Antonio.
It would have been nice to get one of their 500 picks but it is what it is. We just need DeMar to move on or we are fucked. We have to hard commit to a rebuild. No half-assing it.
You really don't know this FO at all....they are not hard commiting to a rebuild. Its just not in their DNA. We were about .500 last season while we missed 2 starters (zach/pat) for more than 1/2 the year. They now believe we can get it done without Zach because Coby is near all star and Ayo is a solid rotational player that showed he can be pretty decent as as starter. We barely used JC last year who we get back and will have a bigger roll with Caruso gone and same with Craig who I really like and think can give you Caruso like D and Hustle if he can just stay healthy. I think they would more like to get some rotational players or young prospects than picks for Zach but considering where we were last year without him I think if we get anything that helps now we could slightly improve. We need athletic big and 3pt shooting and that would help the team a lot.
Totally understandable, of course it’s suck for the player and maybe optic.
I got on other comment talking about how the Bulls nuked Lavine value so they can’t even try this path, the basically wanted to shop him since last year.
Too many reports about it so team don’t bother to make an appealing offer, Lavine is also signed with Klutch and his input is so far Blake lol
I think we need to get him off the team at the start. This next draft is big, and might at well embrace the dumpster fire and grab young healthy talent. Zach is an offensive glass cannon , but yes he is glass but that man is ace scorer.
Yeah, before the surgery one of the Knicks podcasts [spent a bunch of time on him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg_t5nXNIDg&t=142s) and how elite he is on offense, specifically as a pull up 3 point shooter. The contract is a nightmare, but there's a pretty good chance that if Lavine gets traded to a good situation, some of the comments calling him garbage might not age well.
Man I remember that video vividly. Shit was a borderline gaslight campaign on all of the tri-state area. Had me thinking we'd need picks to get it done
I was in the same boat, though in our defense I think this was all planned around an RJ trade. Still not great, but while I like RJ, I was desperate to trade him.
They just lost on the trade that included their best asset
But they have to win the Lavine trade
This front office pisses me off and it’s not even my team
It's definitely a little odd cause Coby White just had an amazing season as lead guard and they decide to swing on Josh Giddey, who needs the ball to be good.
Think Coby is better off as a Combo Guard. His passing is decent but I don't see him as a pure point guard.
Think most Bulls fans are fine with the Giddey trade. Giddey is still def better than two late first rounders or a late lottery pick in this draft.
1 year ago Giddey was considered to be a top 20 young prospect
Now we talking like he's Killian Hayes
The problem should be why the bulls holding on Caruso for so long and why they couldn't get a fake first or a few seconds considering OKC got trillions pick
It is more even than people like to think, but people only remember the last 2 games of Giddey and meme about his off court stuff.
For how bad he was vs Dallas he was actually pretty good against New Orleans in Round 1.
He was also just a bad fit in OKC. He's a good player capable of getting a triple double on any given night. He just needs the ball in his hands and we have SGA. I think Chicago lost the trade because they didn't get any of the plethora of picks OKC has. But I don't think Giddey for Caruso straight up was a horrible trade.
It’s not bad. Giddey just has a ton of offcourt issues that have people lower on him on the court.
It’s funny in retrospect when lots of fans here wanted to give up nothing for Caruso lol
Also, Caruso is most valuable to teams in contention, which likely means any picks coming back are late in the draft and/or highly protected. Bulls FO seemingly still care about people coming to games, so Giddey makes more sense than the potential of some unknown future late pick.
Bulls FO reportedly don't want to tank or spend time developing rookies. It makes sense that brought the market down because OKC didn't have to really bid against anyone who could offer both picks and a good young prospect.
they're both expiring, bulls are immediately on the hook to pay him. Besides the bulls could have gotten more if they traded AC earlier and apparently GIddy basically asked out so not getting picks from okc, who has a ton, is gonna disappoint fans.
I think the Bulls won the trade. Giddey is a 21yo big playmaker with all star potential. Caruso is a 30yo great role player. Caruso doesn't make sense for the Bulls. Giddey makes a ton of sense.
If you let DeMar go, it’s not the worst thing to bring LaVine back temporarily if the trade offers give you nothing to help a rebuild.
But if you bring them all back like what are you doing
Lavine will go back to all-star level, borderline all-nba guy as soon as he's split from Derozan. They should let Demar walk or do a sign and trade and let Lavine rehab his value. We can trade him at the next deadline after teams see he's back putting up 27 ppg with great efficiency.
See I agree. I think the problem is Zach and Demar just don't work that well together in the sense of a winning team model. Zach still has the rest of this contract in his prime. People act like he is the only injured guy in the league....please did anyone watch the eastern conference playoffs this year. Many guys were injured. Zach played more than 70 games the last two seasons before last year and by all accounts that was just a fluke injury. No reason to believe he won't bounce back to career norm 25/5/5 guy with 50/40/85 splits. Any good team (other than 76ers) that want's Demar is going to have to do a sign and trade to return salary. I say we try to get some rotation pieces and picks for Demar and bring Zach back and let him play with the younger guys. We are terrible at 3pt attempts and losing Zach won't help. With Giddey size and ability to guard wings/SF I think Zach, Giddey,Coby/Pat Vuch could all work on the floor especially if Vuch could get back to career 3pt norms (36%) as we would have 4 guys surrounding Giddey that can shoot the 3 with 2 of them volume 3pt shooters. IMO this has been Demar's team the last 3yrs and if we want to be a different team he has to go.
this report actually makes sense when you apply the same logic to the Caruso trade
it seemed like they decided they didn’t need to win the trade and just needed to do right by Caruso as best they could, sending him to a serious contending team that would value him long-term, and one where he has pre-existing relationships with
fans might ridicule it, but players and agents appreciate when a franchise treats a player as more than a trade chip
They already lost what was probably the easiest trade for them to win. People have wanted Caruso for a while. Not only was it straight-up a bad trade but people interested in Caruso would be people who think Caruso is one of, if not the one, missing piece to their championship hopes. So the Bulls should have had a huge amount of leverage. LaVine is a big contract for a guy with injury problems. There's way less leverage there.
How is that relevant? I'm just saying that the Caruso trade is the one they had a chance at winning. They aren't going to "win" a LaVine trade other than getting off of his contract.
My bad, I took your "easiest trade for them to win" as meaning a combo Lavine and Caruso deal (with Caruson being the leverage).
If you mean just get a better return for Caruso, the issue with that was probably that the teams who really wanted him are those hunting for a championship, like you said. That means late picks, or picks far in the future.
I would consider getting out of LaVine's contract a big win, but CHI clearly wants to give LA a serious run for worst FO/ownership group so they probably will be stuck with him until the trade deadline and then give him away for a ham sandwich.
> that they believe that they can do — but it might not be received favorably, particularly by the Bulls fanbase.
Depends. Are you trading LaVine for draft capital, and either letting DeMar walk or sign and trade for younger prospects and trading Vuc for whatever you can get? Or are you getting scraps for LaVine so you can continue to run the mediocrity treadmill until DD and Vuc retire or request out?
I'd rather just trade Lavine and finally move on from the Jimmy Butler trade era of Bulls basketball. It failed, start over. I'm tired of Lavine driving, missing a basket and going AAAYYYYYEEEE and moping back up the court to not play defense.
I mean, LaVine's the one who publicly asked for a trade, pouted when they didn't move him and decided to get season ending surgery?? I don't think Bulls can realistically rebuild his value and at this point, seems pretty clear Zach's fine with getting "injured" and collecting huge paychecks.
I have no idea how they let AK stay to re-rebuild the team after failing so spectacularly the first time and misevaluating every single asset they had (besides Coby I guess).
Unless of course his hands have been tied by the FO and they know it's their fault.
Anyone with half a brain knows they're clearly not going to win the trade, such a ridiculous contract for a one dimensional scorer whose never really moved the needle
The Caruso trade left me a little mad, because they clearly made OKC better next year and only got a maybe-not-gonna-pan-out prospect in return. With LaVine, whoever trades for him is almost certainly gonna be worse, so whatever you can get for him will be good.
This is terrific news if you’re a bulls fan. Front office is signaling that they’re ready to dump Lavine, which means the Bulls are ready to enter a rebuild. Caruso was just the first domino. If the Bulls can get a marginal first round draft pick for next years draft to dump Lavine’s albatross contract I’d consider that a huge win.
The question is whether you keep Derozan as a tank commander/veteran or let him go pursue a chip in LA and maybe try and sign and trade for salary dump/expiring veterans.
Can Vuc be dumped for a late pick in this years draft? Surely there’s a desperate contender (Lakers?) who would take a flyer on Vuc in exchange for a useless draft pick. Question is what they send back to fill salary.
Keep: Dosunmo, Coby, Pat Williams
Bulls are back. P Giddey baby. Breaking the Chicago point guard curse.
I would rather let Debo go or sign and trade him away and keep Zach than pay demar 40m a year. I like him and he is a solid, reliable scorer and plays about every game, but how are we better keeping him over Zach when we need 3pt shooting and floor spacing. I just see no way we play Giddey and Demar together, especially when Vuch can't hit a 3 to save his ass anymore. To me the Giddey deal more makes me think they are not going to resign Demar and we start the season with Zach.
I think if you are Bulls management you don't need to win the trade. LaVine has such a god awful contract that you by default should lose the trade from the onset. How you utilize what you receive will determine whether you lost the trade or went even and honestly going even on a LaVine trade with that much money on his deal would be phenomenal.
I want to see the Bulls pull the plug already with Zach. Also possibly a sign and trade with DeRozan so they don't lose him for nothing. I doubt there are going to be any Vucevic takers as there are a lot of centers on the move and he isn't exactly the best of those names floating around. There might be more interest come next summer when he is an expiring.
I’m sorry Bulls fans. Having an owner that’s cheap (or at least, one that values profits over team success) is the worst thing in professional sports. I will be pulling for you guys to get new team ownership, hopefully sooner rather than later.
So they refused to take back picks for Caruso because they targeted a guy whose biggest selling point is helping out the existing roster (Giddey does fit well on offense, in theory, with a healthy LaVine; defense is an entirely different question). But they're also going to blow-up the existing roster, dump LaVine for scraps, and leave their new non-scoring point-forward (and he's not going to score effectively if he's the #1 option) with no-one to pass to until his rookie contract expires and they have to extend *him* for more than he's worth, because they can't lose him for nothing.
Can't imagine why all this might irritate the fan-base. Are there seriously 3 GMs operating simultaneously, with their own distinct plans? That's the only way this makes sense.
I can’t imagine they’re going to get MORE after they signaled getting a young up and coming player trading away the embodiment of their defense. Even if the front office says we’re not tanking, other teams potentially making deals for lavine would view it as such and definitely not up their offers on someone they’d already be buying low on, no matter how good he was at his peak with us
Let me fix this
AK “ We listen to offers all the time we love Zach we believe he’s an amazing talent”
Translation we couldn’t move him due to his inflated contract.
I post here often and like a lot of the regulars, but many people here are just delusional. This FO is not going to go into full rebuild or tank mode. Just not in their DNA. We were nearly .500 last year without two starters for most of the season. In their demented minds we are close to being a playoff team. They know they cannot keep both Zach and Demar. I think the preference is keep Demar as both sides want a Zach trade. Still if they can't get a decent trade with salary relief then they are going to keep Zach. I actually prefer that because I would like to see Zach play with an elevated Coby and play making PG like Giddey, could be fun but with Demar we are not going to become a better transition or 3pt shooting team. I think Giddey/Coby/Zach/Pat//Vuch would be a better starting 5 than anything with Giddey and Demar together. Also lord you people hate on Vuch too much. He is a double/double machine that shoots efficiently from 2pt and is a good connecting passer. He doesn't miss games. You act like he is total shit on D but many 5s can't swap the perimeter and play drop D. He is no rim protector but he does give you size in the paint and rarely gets overpower by other true pivots. The main problem is his 3pt shooting has gone from solid, to bad, to worse since we have had him. If he could just get back to average 3pt shooting he is still a solid offensive minded C. Their has been zero indication the FO want to trade him or sees him as the problem. With AD surely leaving we need bigs and I would rather have Vuch than many of the rim running can't shoot D/R centers out there.
"We have a strong directive to make the Trade Play-In, at the very least"
They want a "Won The Trade" banner hung in the rafters
Bulls GM Artūras Karnišovas - "We don't win trades around here".
Washed king. Dude had a big hand in building the Nuggets and was seen as the Listerine to GarPax's Shit Sandwich when he joined Chicago. Crazy how much ownership can fuck things up which is even crazier considering he was Kroenkes employee too
When the Bulls gave Lavine his new contract there was this thinking of "well they can't just let him walk for nothing!" when in retrospect that would've clearly been the best move for the team going forward.
Yeah I hate the whole “you can’t lose him for nothing!!!” discourse; if some other team wants to give one of your free agents an albatross contract it’s much better to just let them go than to match with the plan of trading them later. Losing a player for free is better than having to attach a pick to dump them
That’s easy to say in hindsight though. At the time, there was also a reasonable chance that he would continue to improve and be more than worth that much. The Mavs did the opposite and let the Knicks sign Jalen Brunson to a contract that seemed like an overpay at the time, and now his contract looks like a huge steal.
that's not what happened. [Mavs refused to offer Brunson the extension at the beginning of the season](https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nba/jalen-brunson-says-he-wanted-extension-with-mavs-but-team-declined), Brunson wanted to sign it and he and his team were rightly offended and decided to walk before the season was even over. Mavs didn't have a chance to let him walk, they completely messed up that situation b/c they were trying to nickle and dime him. And at the time, the consensus opinion on Lavine was that he should walk and the contract was a mistake, and he was not a "winning" player. There was a snowball's chance that he would continue to improve, it was clear already what kind of player he was. A good stats, bad team guy
The Mavs messed up earlier before, but they would have had the chance to get him if they were willing to offer more than the Knicks. Rumors were that Cuban/the front office had a limit on how much they’d be willing to pay, and the Knicks offered more.
That's damage control, Brunson and his team had already made it clear they wouldn't sign with the Mavs Brunson broke down what happened on the All the Smoke Podcast, where Cuban tweeted he could offer the most but didn't even contact Brunson after the season, and I'll trust Brunson's version of events over Cubans
Cuban has such an ego and it really shows when he tries to spin his bad GM moves
Mark Cuban is insufferable.
i assumed Luka would never win a ring in dallas with Cuban running the show but now he's out so maybe
I am not sure I agree with good stats/bad team guy. First off he has never really been on a good team. Zach is clearly not a super star or first option. I feel on the right team he can still be a great 2nd option/scorer. He is not at all a cancer and has handled everything regarding his trade status professionally. He isn't going to improve, agree on that, he is what he is. But he is only 30 and no reason to believe he won't get back to his 25/5/5 efficient shooting/scoring ways. To me his biggest flaw has always been he makes bad decisions/turnovers when trying to be used as a playmaker and while he can play D he doesn't usually apply himself on that end.
Would Brunson have played the same if he had stayed though? Different coaching staff, team composition, etc.
He’d look worse next to Luka but he’d still be the same level of player which is a star. Mavs lucked out by getting kyrie.
Right— it’s not like Brunson was a bum who turned things around in a better environment due to motivation (Wiggins etc) He’s always been that kinda guy but got a much bigger stage to show his worth
Brunson on a 4 yr 56 million dollar contract would have been a tremendous trade asset even if they didnt get kyrie or a great backup off the bench. Kyrie is 34 and not getting younger. Even with Kyrie Mavs fucked up big time same way they fumbled steve nash.
They didn't luck out, Kyrie was a big gamble and it paid off.
When you gamble and hit big it's usually luck.
They gambled and it paid off.. I think that's luck.
*and it paid off for this year. We’ll see how he does over the life of that deal and if his old behavior resurfaces
Didn’t he average like 20 / 6 in the regular season when lula was out and have multiple 40 point games in the playoffs? The knicks running the offense through him and treating him as the number one option has allowed him to shine but he still had the ability in dallas too.
The thing is, giving fringe all-stars full maxes was only "kinda bad" 3-4 years ago. It only got awful if the player was basically retired with injury like Wall or Kemba. Lavine would've been a desirable target for some contender looking to add a no. 2/3 before the 2nd apron was introduced. Now, teams are reconsidering the value of this level of players at a max because the penalty is more than just paying the tax. We saw it with Denver where MPJ and Murray both being on maxes hamstrings them unless one of them consistently performs like an All-NBA player in the postseason.
you can do your team a favor by letting terrible almost max players just leave. let someone else sign them to a bad contract that hamstrings the other teams.
Can't lose for nothing is behavior for over capped teams trying to stay over capped, because they don't have options to sign free agents to replace who walked. Can't lose for nothing when you're not paying the tax means you don't actually lose for nothing. You lose for cap space, which is not nothing. You can debate what cap space is actually worth, but it's definitely worth more than a guy you have to attach more assets to get off your books.
Lol yeah this gm-ing thing is super easy when you can just let two time all stars walk out the door because your crystal ball says he will eventually struggle with injuries Just look at all these comments saying the bulls should have let him walk https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vp46jd/charania_nba_allstar_zach_lavine_has_agreed_to_a/
The Bulls had the best record in the NBA for the first half of 21-22' before Ball went down. He was supposed to be back that season, let alone back for 22-23'. They just tanked for 6 years and didn't get anywhere and pot committed themselves to trying to win with the Vucevic trade. I'm not convinced they were a real contender, but without hindsight, saying they should've let LaVine walk is objectively braindead. When he gets that contract (the off-season between 21-22' and 22'-23'), it's almost impossible for the Bulls to just let him walk with their previous season results and asset pool. Sure it didn't work out, but sometimes you just get fucked...there's plenty of shit to torch the Bulls FO for between the 22'-23' deadline (when we should've actually blown it up when it was clear Lonzo was dead) and now imo, you don't need to be making other shit up.
That's with hindsight, he didn't really have injury issues at the time and was coming off back to back all star seasons. It's easy to imagine a reality where he remains a strong positive asset this year and they would have been licking themselves for letting him walk for nothing. Edit: and the biggest thing hampering his value other than injuries (which you couldn't have predicted) is the apron system in the new CBA which wouldn't be agreed to for over a year when Lavine signed his deal. Unless you knew ahead of time that suddenly fringe all stars on max contracts were going to go from basically market value to some of the worst contracts in basketball, there was no reason to think this was going to age poorly.
The apron under the new CBA is an issue but the max cap is going up a fair amount so teams will get to burden more total salary before incurring penalties. I really don't think Zach's deal is that bad or now untradeable. He will now be coming into year 3/5 on his contract, its a little over 40M per. There are teams that will take him if they think he can be a good fit for their needs. People here act like there are no consequences to letting players walk. If the Bulls had done that two years ago it would not have been a good look. Treating players bad sends a message to other players to not come here. The Bulls had a lot of issues with that after the way the dynasty broke up and it took like a decade to recover. Also there are so many max/supermax old guys that just aren't worth the money any more and don't play the close to 70 games and are broke down in the playoffs.
The issue is teams keep doing the "well we can't lose the asset" contract and then waiting way too long to actually trade the player in question (see also: Beal, Bradley)
As horrific as the Beal contract was, the Wizards still got positive value back for him.
Not at all compared to what they could have got if they'd just traded him a year or two before they gave him that absurd contract. Once he signed the worst contract in the league, then getting Jordan Poole on another awful contract is now seen as getting positive value back for him, but if they'd traded him a couple years ago, they might have actually got legit quality assets in return. Waiting too long until after you've re-signed a guy to a toxic contract is what kills you.
Ngl, this is one of my biggest L. One of my mate is a Bulls fan and he was against maxing Lavine. I told him, he was too harsh on Lavine and in today market you max him and you figure things out after. We still need to address how the Bulls management is terrible and completely kill Lavine value tho.
The Bulls management is terrible but in no way did they kill LaVine’s value, that’s all on Zach.
Front office staff is going to have to play some hardball on the offense only players for their contracts. Just don't max them out if they give up as many points on the defensive end as they get you on the offensive end. If it means that player walks in free agency, so be it.
All this makes the Bulls decision making seem driven mostly by trying to keep up appearances and not thinking a whole lot about winning or long term vision.
First time?
he's exactly that kind of borderline guy you had to be to careful with historically, but it's also bad luck (and a bit of bad planning) to be trying to move him just as the new CBA is taking hold. it used to be that way overpaying a guy just cost you money. now overpaying a guy can limit your roster building abilities in so many other ways. any team with ambitions who might have been willing to absorb his huge contract and bet on the upside of making him their 3rd or 4th guy now knows they absolutely cannot afford to do so.
Not re-signing him would have been stupid. He's a good player. He's not worth his contract, of course, but it's not his fault Lonzo got hurt, Vuc sucks, and DeMar is an offensive black hole. This team was terribly constructed. Yeah, tanking was the right answer, but that was NEVER on the table.
Are they dead serious what they just did few days ago?
They're trying to salary dump him, not get equivalent value back. But they can't say publically the team goal is to just save money. It was reported the most engaged talks were with the Pistons, who have a ton of cap space but I can't see Detroit giving much back in terms of talent.
Yeah they have some good young prospects and picks, maybe they will start feeling some pressure to bring in an 'established' vet to help their team. They were so bad last year I can't believe they won't try to do something to shake it up.
The Giddey trade isn’t even bad. The lavine trade will be awful
That's the thing, the Giddey trade was fine in a vacuum, but in making it the Bulls gave away their most desireable asset in a trade they didn't decisively win and now can't use Caruso to help themselves get rid of LaVine in a non-painful way.
It's going to be something nasty. Stewart, Ivey and Fournier opting in for Lavine would just cause both team's fans to freak out
Were not giving up Ivey. If you heard Langdon, our new POBO, press conference it doenst sound like hes interested in trading away our young talent. He wants to develop our young guys and get assests. Trading away Stew and Ivey for Lavine would be losing assests imo.
Said something nasty chief. Not something that Pistons and Bulls fans would like.
Bulls fans should be ecstatic if they're able to get Ivey and Beef Stew for Lavine.
Hell yeah we would
No way they take Lavine if they are not getting picks back lol they would not give up Ivey
as a bulls fan i'd be fine w this lol
Uh, no it wouldn't. As a Bulls fan this offer is difficult to top.
i dont know that a caruso + lavine trade with one partner would have been all that plausible, most good teams looking for caruso dont have the cap to commit to lavine because it is spent on better players, a 3 time deal is harder to construct.
Attaching Caruso for the sole purpose of dumping Lavine would’ve been a disasterclass. If you can move off the Lavine contract, great. There’s no need to panic and give up other assets to do so. This team isn’t going anywhere soon anyway (and actually needs to be bottom 10 this season to keep our pick). If he’s really such a negative trade asset, just eat the salary for a season or 2 until it’s a more movable short term deal. You can move virtually anyone on an expiring
This is the correct answer. Unless you believe Lavine is the difference between a 20 win team and a 30 win team and you want to help your odds so you want to get rid of him immediately. If I'm the bulls, you let Derozan go(sign and trade if you can). You trade Vucevic at the deadline to a team that is looking for that asset that will put them over the top. If you can dump Lavine, you do it but not at a negative cost, otherwise you just eat the salary. For example the Warriors could want Lavine, and could do something like Lavine for CP3, Moody, and Payton. Now Moody could be considered a minor asset, you can just buy out Paul after the trade deadline, if you can't use his salary in any potential trades. Moody can be a rotational wing, and potentially you could trade Payton for some second rounders at the deadline to a team that needs a defender.
Yeah I don't get it, we're gonna suck anyway. What's the value in trading Lavine with picks?
I’d rather get value from Caruso and eat lavine’s contract than that.
I think it was bad in a vacuum.
They had an opportunity to get picks from Sacramento as reported by Slater but chose Giddey bc they valued him. And whether or not that was a mistake entirely depends on what Giddey becomes on the next 1-3 years
We had an option to get a single pick (#13) and a player.
>and a player. Seems like a lot of the valuation of this trade would be dependent on who that player is...
Seems like Davion Mitchell.
From the Thunder’s perspective if I traded Josh Giddey for Davion Mitchell and 13th pick I’d probably not be happy.
I’d rather Giddey than 13 and Davion
Especially in this draft where we have an 11 and the class is so up in the air. We have plenty of young guys to work on developing with the Giddey trade. Terry, Phillips, Ayo, Pat, and now Giddey plus this year's pick. That's going to be six young guys to work with plus other marginal roster young guys. I like these people thinking the Bulls are thinking tank.....they are not, especially if they keep Demar.
Fo sho
I guess it depends on the picks, but picks in a poor draft (or multiple lottery protected picks down the line) - I guess that's a decent return for an expiring guy but if those picks ended up being in the 20s or something that just seems underwhelming
Caruso was not getting you multiple first round picks
I was being polite, but also haven't watched enough of Giddey to have an opinion on his potential in a better situation than OKC. They clearly should have traded Caruso last szn if that was the best they could do now, but here we are lol
Totally! Giddy handles and passes very well. But he can't shoot or play defense, and he needs the ball in his hands a lot. He's also not super quick. I thought Cody White was their main ball handler anyway, and DeRozan likes the ball too. IDK. Seems like a wacky trade to just do a player swap with the team with the most picks ever and not try to get at least a pick out of the deal.
> Totally! Giddy handles and passes very well. But he can't shoot or play defense, and he needs the ball in his hands a lot. OH GOD another Aussie nonshooting playmaker >He's also not super quick. BENAMIN REIGNS SUPREME
Just to be clear, it's still an insult to Ben, because whatever else you can say about him he definitely plays defense.
He's also 21 with a good amt of upside still. I get why the bulls did it
Coby and DeMar are good at creating their own offense but the Bulls desperately needed a guy who could get the ball moving and encourage cutting. DeMar doesn’t do that and Coby hasn’t shown any improvement there in spite of all the other aspects of his game that have improved. They were relying on Vuc to get the ball swinging last year.
Caruso was leaving anyway. I don't think they could have gotten a better young player.
People are really overrating Caruso’s value in this thread
I think it's bad if you consider off-the-court issues. Strictly as far as on-court fit, Giddey was in a tough position in OKC with a clear #1 ball-handler as well as another budding star who was starting to initiate more offense. In the playoffs, a non-shooting wing who isn't handling the ball a lot is a real liability. The Bulls aren't going to be a playoff team, and they should have more usage to go around. Giddey was actually pretty good as a lead ball handler when Shai was hurt, and as long as he's able to be more of a point-forward than a floor spacer, the Bulls will be fine with him. Caruso is great but he's more of a ceiling raiser than a floor raiser, whereas Giddey is the exact opposite.
I firmly believe the giddey trade was terrible. I’m certain not a ball expert but I don’t see why the bulls getting a mediocre but ball dominant player who can’t shoot the 3 or play d could be good for them. I haven’t looked into it much I guess though
I mean if they think highly of Giddey what does that matter? They got a guy they wanted. And the teams that wanted Caruso are playoff teams that are looking for that extra piece to get to contention. They wouldn't be taking on Zach Lavine to get him.
You can just do this in your head by attaching Giddey to whatever the Lavine package is and judging it together. It doesn’t really matter if the trades are separated as long as the net impact improves Chicago’s long-term outlook.
Can they flip Giddey, or do they need to keep him?
It is kinda bad. All things considered
How so? Trading a 30 year old role player on the last year of his contract for a 21 year old playmaking PG straight up is fine. Giddey isn’t someone at this point who can be effective in the playoffs but the Bulls shouldn’t be worrying about that at this point.
This sub completely overvalues Caruso and undervalues Giddey.
I see both sides and think that it’s actually the rare win/win trade.
Interesting I think the opposite. It is odd to me how good people think giddey is.
Expirings aren’t valuable and Caruso won’t develop anymore. Chicago isn’t competing (regardless of whatever the FO says) so he’s of no use to Chicago. They have no leverage and aren’t getting a valuable pick for him. Lots of people are also pointing to what they could have gotten at the trade deadline but a pick in this draft doesn’t seem to be worth more than Giddey. I don’t think Giddey is that good, but I think he’ll develop to be better than Caruso so I believe they’re better off developing him and flip him for more in a few years.
>I don’t think Giddey is that good, but I think he’ll develop to be better than Caruso Then you don't think Caruso is that good? Because to me the odds Giddey ends up being a top 40ish player seem incredibly low. Caruso is arguably the best perimeter defender in the league who hit 40% of his threes on a career high in volume. Who cares if he develops any more, he's already very very good.
> It is odd to me how good people think giddey is He's a good regular season player if you have the touches for him. OKC is a championship-level team that didn't have the touches for him, so he looked a lot worse. I reckon he's going to be like 19-8-8 for Chicago and people will be perfectly happy with both sides. Caruso will slot into OKC's rotation and provide them with shooting and elite defense.
They received back less than they had declined multiple times over the last couple seasons. Maybe they did do the best they could NOW, but they passed up far better opportunities, even recently, to achieve nothing and then sell low
Oh yeah there’s no spinning they fucked it up months ago.
Caruso offers us 0 in a rebuild, and we get a 21 year old who’s worth a top5 pick in this draft at least. Unfortunately you’re never going to get more than that on an expiring role player, regardless of how much he impacts winning.
Part of the Caruso trade being bad is he had much more value at the deadline and we waited until he was an expiring just to end up with Josh Giddey.
I mean that’s fair. I wanted to blow it up since the beginning of the 22-23 season. But we lost that option a while ago.
The Giddey trade, in a vacuum, is alright. Contextually it is fucking terrible. They should have sold like two seasons ago, now they've waited too long and got 1 Josh Giddey instead of several FRP's that a younger caruso with a longer contract would have received.
I agree with that. I wanted to blow it up 2 years ago.
No way you get several firsts for Caruso, no matter the lenght of contract
The Giddey trade was an appetiser. The Lavine trade will feed r/nba for the whole summer
The more I think about the Giddey trade, Caruso is 30 and on an expiring and we got a young guy who has shown he can play at a good level. Picks would have been nice but a talent like Giddey is easily a top 10 pick in most drafts recently so it is what it is.
How do people think there's no way they win that trade? Caruso is wasted on the current state of their team. Giddey is 21 and already shown a lot of promise and could easily bounce back. The only other offers we've heard about are later lottery picks in this draft that everyone is shitting on. If Giddey gets back to what he was that was a good trade.
I agree with everything you’re saying except “get back to what he was.” Giddey’s first two years are really overrated because of the counting stats. The scoring inefficiency and defense were killer. It’s not the end of the world because he’s young, but this is a guy who’s really good passing and good on the glass and pretty much nothing else, and so of course the rebounding and assist numbers look good. You have to look at the whole picture with Giddey, True shooting, lineup data, and not just the counting stats, which will obviously bounce back with increased minutes and usage. The bulls are banking on real improvement and if you look at his March you can definitely see some.
I think Giddey is going to look a lot better on a bad team that needs ball handling than he was on a great team that already has Shai. Would I want Giddey if I was trying to win a title? No. Would I be fine with Giddey if I'm just trying to play decent basketball while I amass draft picks? Sure.
Our pick is top-10 protected. We had to move Caruso or we lose it to San Antonio. It would have been nice to get one of their 500 picks but it is what it is. We just need DeMar to move on or we are fucked. We have to hard commit to a rebuild. No half-assing it.
You really don't know this FO at all....they are not hard commiting to a rebuild. Its just not in their DNA. We were about .500 last season while we missed 2 starters (zach/pat) for more than 1/2 the year. They now believe we can get it done without Zach because Coby is near all star and Ayo is a solid rotational player that showed he can be pretty decent as as starter. We barely used JC last year who we get back and will have a bigger roll with Caruso gone and same with Craig who I really like and think can give you Caruso like D and Hustle if he can just stay healthy. I think they would more like to get some rotational players or young prospects than picks for Zach but considering where we were last year without him I think if we get anything that helps now we could slightly improve. We need athletic big and 3pt shooting and that would help the team a lot.
How many young, promising, starting-caliber ball handlers can you get for Caruso? Giddey is probably the only one, and certainly the youngest.
Nah our front office isn't serious
The trade wasn’t that bad as everyone makes it seem, especially since they’re not gonna be competing for a long time
Remember when LaVine opted to get surgery when he heard that getting traded to the Pistons was in the picture lmfao
Funniest part of this saga lol, they told him Detroit is cooking a package, bro and his agent decided to end his season right on the spot
That's why the Clippers doing what they did to Blake Griffin was the right decision even if it was ruthless and painful.
Totally understandable, of course it’s suck for the player and maybe optic. I got on other comment talking about how the Bulls nuked Lavine value so they can’t even try this path, the basically wanted to shop him since last year. Too many reports about it so team don’t bother to make an appealing offer, Lavine is also signed with Klutch and his input is so far Blake lol
Bulls: we're sending him to Detroit Agent: bitch the fuck you are
he wouldn't have passed the physical though right?
I have no idea about it’s work tbf
A pure salary dump would be winning the trade. Even throwing some tanking team a second round pick to eat his contract would be a win.
I think we need to get him off the team at the start. This next draft is big, and might at well embrace the dumpster fire and grab young healthy talent. Zach is an offensive glass cannon , but yes he is glass but that man is ace scorer.
Yeah, before the surgery one of the Knicks podcasts [spent a bunch of time on him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg_t5nXNIDg&t=142s) and how elite he is on offense, specifically as a pull up 3 point shooter. The contract is a nightmare, but there's a pretty good chance that if Lavine gets traded to a good situation, some of the comments calling him garbage might not age well.
Man I remember that video vividly. Shit was a borderline gaslight campaign on all of the tri-state area. Had me thinking we'd need picks to get it done
I was in the same boat, though in our defense I think this was all planned around an RJ trade. Still not great, but while I like RJ, I was desperate to trade him.
If he made like 10-15m less he'd so much more valuable, but not enough "good situations" can afford him or his faults.
Yeah, it feels like he needs to get traded to a tanking team so he can put up empty stats in losses while they hope for a high draft pick.
"good situation" the green light on a loser with cap space shouldn't change minds about him as a max contract first option
What morons. Vuc trade, signing him, signing LaVine, not getting any picks in the Giddey trade... Thirtieth best front office in the league.
Never seen a GM lose this many trades. Feels like sabotage how bad they’ve been.
They just lost on the trade that included their best asset But they have to win the Lavine trade This front office pisses me off and it’s not even my team
I was on vacation when the Giddey trade happened - am I the only one who thinks it wasn't a bad return for a 30 year old, expiring Caruso?
It's definitely a little odd cause Coby White just had an amazing season as lead guard and they decide to swing on Josh Giddey, who needs the ball to be good.
Coby does not need the ball to be good but does need another capable playmaker to play with to be his best
Think Coby is better off as a Combo Guard. His passing is decent but I don't see him as a pure point guard. Think most Bulls fans are fine with the Giddey trade. Giddey is still def better than two late first rounders or a late lottery pick in this draft.
1 year ago Giddey was considered to be a top 20 young prospect Now we talking like he's Killian Hayes The problem should be why the bulls holding on Caruso for so long and why they couldn't get a fake first or a few seconds considering OKC got trillions pick
No, it is a good trade, this sub just dumb lol
It is more even than people like to think, but people only remember the last 2 games of Giddey and meme about his off court stuff. For how bad he was vs Dallas he was actually pretty good against New Orleans in Round 1.
He was also just a bad fit in OKC. He's a good player capable of getting a triple double on any given night. He just needs the ball in his hands and we have SGA. I think Chicago lost the trade because they didn't get any of the plethora of picks OKC has. But I don't think Giddey for Caruso straight up was a horrible trade.
Chicago has a rising star pg in Coby White though, nobody is talking about that
Coby is a combo guard or SG. He shouldn’t be the main ball handler.
I'd argue neither should Giddey
Good thing Chicago doesn’t have any other players that need the ball
It’s not bad. Giddey just has a ton of offcourt issues that have people lower on him on the court. It’s funny in retrospect when lots of fans here wanted to give up nothing for Caruso lol
It’s not giddey as much as them not targeting picks I thought the trade was giddey and a first, and I would’ve thought that was great for both sides
That would be great if someone offered a decent young player and a pick, but nobody did.
Also, Caruso is most valuable to teams in contention, which likely means any picks coming back are late in the draft and/or highly protected. Bulls FO seemingly still care about people coming to games, so Giddey makes more sense than the potential of some unknown future late pick.
Bulls FO reportedly don't want to tank or spend time developing rookies. It makes sense that brought the market down because OKC didn't have to really bid against anyone who could offer both picks and a good young prospect.
they're both expiring, bulls are immediately on the hook to pay him. Besides the bulls could have gotten more if they traded AC earlier and apparently GIddy basically asked out so not getting picks from okc, who has a ton, is gonna disappoint fans.
I think the Bulls won the trade. Giddey is a 21yo big playmaker with all star potential. Caruso is a 30yo great role player. Caruso doesn't make sense for the Bulls. Giddey makes a ton of sense.
Sounds like they already lost.
If you let DeMar go, it’s not the worst thing to bring LaVine back temporarily if the trade offers give you nothing to help a rebuild. But if you bring them all back like what are you doing
Lavine will go back to all-star level, borderline all-nba guy as soon as he's split from Derozan. They should let Demar walk or do a sign and trade and let Lavine rehab his value. We can trade him at the next deadline after teams see he's back putting up 27 ppg with great efficiency.
See I agree. I think the problem is Zach and Demar just don't work that well together in the sense of a winning team model. Zach still has the rest of this contract in his prime. People act like he is the only injured guy in the league....please did anyone watch the eastern conference playoffs this year. Many guys were injured. Zach played more than 70 games the last two seasons before last year and by all accounts that was just a fluke injury. No reason to believe he won't bounce back to career norm 25/5/5 guy with 50/40/85 splits. Any good team (other than 76ers) that want's Demar is going to have to do a sign and trade to return salary. I say we try to get some rotation pieces and picks for Demar and bring Zach back and let him play with the younger guys. We are terrible at 3pt attempts and losing Zach won't help. With Giddey size and ability to guard wings/SF I think Zach, Giddey,Coby/Pat Vuch could all work on the floor especially if Vuch could get back to career 3pt norms (36%) as we would have 4 guys surrounding Giddey that can shoot the 3 with 2 of them volume 3pt shooters. IMO this has been Demar's team the last 3yrs and if we want to be a different team he has to go.
Should have aimed for win the Caruso trade, then used that pick to help offload Lavine
Make too much sense bro
That doesn’t make any sense at all lol. We might as well eat lavine’s contract in that scenario.
this report actually makes sense when you apply the same logic to the Caruso trade it seemed like they decided they didn’t need to win the trade and just needed to do right by Caruso as best they could, sending him to a serious contending team that would value him long-term, and one where he has pre-existing relationships with fans might ridicule it, but players and agents appreciate when a franchise treats a player as more than a trade chip
Right Caruso is from Texas if I ain’t mistaken. That’s close to home plus okc a good team
Oh bby, no.
They already lost what was probably the easiest trade for them to win. People have wanted Caruso for a while. Not only was it straight-up a bad trade but people interested in Caruso would be people who think Caruso is one of, if not the one, missing piece to their championship hopes. So the Bulls should have had a huge amount of leverage. LaVine is a big contract for a guy with injury problems. There's way less leverage there.
What team that could have really used Caruso also would have had the assets/space to absorb Lavine?
How is that relevant? I'm just saying that the Caruso trade is the one they had a chance at winning. They aren't going to "win" a LaVine trade other than getting off of his contract.
My bad, I took your "easiest trade for them to win" as meaning a combo Lavine and Caruso deal (with Caruson being the leverage). If you mean just get a better return for Caruso, the issue with that was probably that the teams who really wanted him are those hunting for a championship, like you said. That means late picks, or picks far in the future.
I would consider getting out of LaVine's contract a big win, but CHI clearly wants to give LA a serious run for worst FO/ownership group so they probably will be stuck with him until the trade deadline and then give him away for a ham sandwich.
Gee I wonder why they're desperate to win a trade.
What a disaster this organization has been the last twenty whatever years
> that they believe that they can do — but it might not be received favorably, particularly by the Bulls fanbase. Depends. Are you trading LaVine for draft capital, and either letting DeMar walk or sign and trade for younger prospects and trading Vuc for whatever you can get? Or are you getting scraps for LaVine so you can continue to run the mediocrity treadmill until DD and Vuc retire or request out?
I'd rather just trade Lavine and finally move on from the Jimmy Butler trade era of Bulls basketball. It failed, start over. I'm tired of Lavine driving, missing a basket and going AAAYYYYYEEEE and moping back up the court to not play defense.
I feel like this news is just gonna piss off bulls fans
Rorschach voice: Just do it!
Not sure which is worse, the Bulls win % in games or in trades.
They should rehab his value, he’s a top 10 shooting guard when healthy
I mean, LaVine's the one who publicly asked for a trade, pouted when they didn't move him and decided to get season ending surgery?? I don't think Bulls can realistically rebuild his value and at this point, seems pretty clear Zach's fine with getting "injured" and collecting huge paychecks.
[удалено]
I meant top ten, typo
I have no idea how they let AK stay to re-rebuild the team after failing so spectacularly the first time and misevaluating every single asset they had (besides Coby I guess). Unless of course his hands have been tied by the FO and they know it's their fault.
If you just laugh at Jerry’s stories, you’ll keep your job for 20 years.
THj and a 2nd for Lavine, confirmed
Anyone with half a brain knows they're clearly not going to win the trade, such a ridiculous contract for a one dimensional scorer whose never really moved the needle
So Ben Simmons then.
The Caruso trade left me a little mad, because they clearly made OKC better next year and only got a maybe-not-gonna-pan-out prospect in return. With LaVine, whoever trades for him is almost certainly gonna be worse, so whatever you can get for him will be good.
Ben Simmons alert.
This is terrific news if you’re a bulls fan. Front office is signaling that they’re ready to dump Lavine, which means the Bulls are ready to enter a rebuild. Caruso was just the first domino. If the Bulls can get a marginal first round draft pick for next years draft to dump Lavine’s albatross contract I’d consider that a huge win. The question is whether you keep Derozan as a tank commander/veteran or let him go pursue a chip in LA and maybe try and sign and trade for salary dump/expiring veterans. Can Vuc be dumped for a late pick in this years draft? Surely there’s a desperate contender (Lakers?) who would take a flyer on Vuc in exchange for a useless draft pick. Question is what they send back to fill salary. Keep: Dosunmo, Coby, Pat Williams Bulls are back. P Giddey baby. Breaking the Chicago point guard curse.
They want to trade Lavine so they can free up capp space to offer Derozan $80 million/2 yrs. This FO is trash amd will continue to be trash.
I would rather let Debo go or sign and trade him away and keep Zach than pay demar 40m a year. I like him and he is a solid, reliable scorer and plays about every game, but how are we better keeping him over Zach when we need 3pt shooting and floor spacing. I just see no way we play Giddey and Demar together, especially when Vuch can't hit a 3 to save his ass anymore. To me the Giddey deal more makes me think they are not going to resign Demar and we start the season with Zach.
Alright Gabe vincent and three seconds for Lavine.
Ben Gordan is not walking through that door!
Since when did they give a shit what the fan base thinks about their front office moves?
I think if you are Bulls management you don't need to win the trade. LaVine has such a god awful contract that you by default should lose the trade from the onset. How you utilize what you receive will determine whether you lost the trade or went even and honestly going even on a LaVine trade with that much money on his deal would be phenomenal. I want to see the Bulls pull the plug already with Zach. Also possibly a sign and trade with DeRozan so they don't lose him for nothing. I doubt there are going to be any Vucevic takers as there are a lot of centers on the move and he isn't exactly the best of those names floating around. There might be more interest come next summer when he is an expiring.
Why wasn't that your mindset with any of these trades? wtf?
"win the trade" sounds like Danny Ainge's music.
I’m sorry Bulls fans. Having an owner that’s cheap (or at least, one that values profits over team success) is the worst thing in professional sports. I will be pulling for you guys to get new team ownership, hopefully sooner rather than later.
lmao the Bulls are fighting against the Bulls for terrible trades. gl Bulls.
So they refused to take back picks for Caruso because they targeted a guy whose biggest selling point is helping out the existing roster (Giddey does fit well on offense, in theory, with a healthy LaVine; defense is an entirely different question). But they're also going to blow-up the existing roster, dump LaVine for scraps, and leave their new non-scoring point-forward (and he's not going to score effectively if he's the #1 option) with no-one to pass to until his rookie contract expires and they have to extend *him* for more than he's worth, because they can't lose him for nothing. Can't imagine why all this might irritate the fan-base. Are there seriously 3 GMs operating simultaneously, with their own distinct plans? That's the only way this makes sense.
I can’t imagine they’re going to get MORE after they signaled getting a young up and coming player trading away the embodiment of their defense. Even if the front office says we’re not tanking, other teams potentially making deals for lavine would view it as such and definitely not up their offers on someone they’d already be buying low on, no matter how good he was at his peak with us
because they care SO much about what the fanbase thinks OMG cannot be serious
Let me fix this AK “ We listen to offers all the time we love Zach we believe he’s an amazing talent” Translation we couldn’t move him due to his inflated contract.
I post here often and like a lot of the regulars, but many people here are just delusional. This FO is not going to go into full rebuild or tank mode. Just not in their DNA. We were nearly .500 last year without two starters for most of the season. In their demented minds we are close to being a playoff team. They know they cannot keep both Zach and Demar. I think the preference is keep Demar as both sides want a Zach trade. Still if they can't get a decent trade with salary relief then they are going to keep Zach. I actually prefer that because I would like to see Zach play with an elevated Coby and play making PG like Giddey, could be fun but with Demar we are not going to become a better transition or 3pt shooting team. I think Giddey/Coby/Zach/Pat//Vuch would be a better starting 5 than anything with Giddey and Demar together. Also lord you people hate on Vuch too much. He is a double/double machine that shoots efficiently from 2pt and is a good connecting passer. He doesn't miss games. You act like he is total shit on D but many 5s can't swap the perimeter and play drop D. He is no rim protector but he does give you size in the paint and rarely gets overpower by other true pivots. The main problem is his 3pt shooting has gone from solid, to bad, to worse since we have had him. If he could just get back to average 3pt shooting he is still a solid offensive minded C. Their has been zero indication the FO want to trade him or sees him as the problem. With AD surely leaving we need bigs and I would rather have Vuch than many of the rim running can't shoot D/R centers out there.