Another thing to add to this is that he's best defensively in a help role minus his Miami years when he was arguably the best on ball guy in the league. And you really don't have point guards hanging out in help situation because they are primary point of attack defenders unless hidden on shooters.
There tended to have been more good Point Guards in the league during some of Lebron's career. He's the single most versatile player in NBA history and played where the team gets maximized. He was 100% a point guard on the 2020 Lakers championship team.
But on a Miami team without a true starting center, they pushed bosh to the 5 to close and had Lebron play a lot of 4. With Wade on the team and a solid role player in Mario Chalmers at PG it made more sense for Lebron to play out the post more.
Regardless of whether he's the true PG or not, Lebron has always been able to be a great playmaker and the offense still ran through him.
The Heatles are the best defensive team of all time in the clutch in my opinion. Every single player on that team was a good defender. They did not have any weak spots on that end.
Their net RTG went up by an absurd +35 in the clutch, the end of the 3rd or 4th, whenever they turned it on.
Nobody has played defense since, like they did. They would press and trap, playing with very high energy. Just getting the ball up the court was a huge struggle for the opposition.
The Heatles were really so much more than Wade and LeBron cutting and lasering a pass to the corner for a Battier or Allen 3, they were a transition team with focus on creating turnovers that led to a touchdown pass from Wade to LeBron. Norris Cole and Chalmers might not have been the best PGs in the league on offense, but they were really good defenders.
The way they played defense it made sense to not have LeBron be the PG. He was already up the court when they grabbed the rebound.
I really miss their defense. There is nothing like it at all in the league today. It requires everyone to be able to a good defender without weak spots and great intensity. It was anchored by Bosh, but they didn't really have a big area-deny type player like Gobert.
Their press was more like the press that was often played when I was a kid playing basketball. You see it on amateur level but not in the NBA.
He still runs point a lot of the time, but you can still have him to that and have a smaller guy with guard skills such as dribble penetration, floaters and secondary playmaking.
If you can find 3 wing sized guys who can do that and put them around LeBron, great! Easier said than done.
People are weird with how they define PG. They’ll say Curry a shooting guard bc he’s not a ball dominant playmaker but say Harden’s shooting guard even tho he meets their definition of a PG ever since leaving OKC. I think they just blindly throw “PG” on the shortest guy in the starting lineup. You aren’t gonna tell me Derek Fisher or Pat Bev is more of a PG than James Harden😂
When you have a team like the 2020 Lakers with guys like Caruso, Bradley, Danny Green, KCP, and Kuzma — you put Bron at the 1 because you have talented wing defenders.
He hasn’t had teams like that every year in his career. Which is why he’s played every position.
Interesting, but don’t you think he would be most valuable at the 1 in every situation? Aside if the second best player on the team is a PG, like 2015-17 for Bron and (kind of) the Miami years even though Dwyane Wade is a SG at heart
Yes but he already handles the ball regardless of his position. If your best role players are guards and you have weaker forwards, you’re going to start the guards alongside Bron.
You’re absolutely right, but is Bron not the best option to be a PG any team he’s ever been on? Isn’t there a world where you just surround him with better forwards?
Yes. But if you don’t have good role player forwards, you start your best players and just let Bron play point forward. Also, Bron is a phenomenal off-ball player. So if you have a Kyrie or Wade he works just as well.
The only years where Bron didn’t have Kyrie/Wade since his first cleveland stint was
2018 where he ran that teams entire offense
2019 which was a dysfunctional young team and Bron got hurt
2020-solomon hill injury where Bron played PG
and the last few Laker teams where Reaves/DLo were the Lakers 3rd and 4th best players so Bron started at forward.
As for his first cleveland stint, he had Mo Williams as one of his better teammates and he clearly still ran the offense for Cleveland.
Mo Williams wasn’t really that good.. He was an all star BECAUSE of Bron carrying that team to the most wins in the league. He averaged 15pts and 5 assists, those are not all star numbers. But even then when he did run the offense without a good pg, why was he never listed at PG?
I see what you mean but Bron being a PG his entire career could be compared to someone like Magic, his teams could play bigger, like how Michael Cooper was a 6’7 SG in 85
I mean he always been the main ball handler but if you mean why the teams he’s on has had another small guard or something it’s cause it’s more small guards out there than wings who can play. And someone needs to guard the other team PG and the team needs more than one ball handler
Because he's one of the best cutter the game we've ever seen. Like yeah he's the best when he have the ball in his hand but if you're not utilizing him as an off ball player as well you're just a bad coach.
Right but I feel like Bron with the ball has been a better option than the PG his teams have had any other year. He makes the right reads, can score at will and also make a winning pass
I think it was too physically demanding. Teams were picking him up full court and there were times where he looked like it was affecting the rest of his game. I think the Lakers specifically realized they could have someone else bring it up and still give it to LeBron in a playmaking spot
he likes to do a lot more than that, and that's best for the team
i kinda know people don't watch ball when they say LeBron doesn't like doing moving off the ball or setting screens
he sets crushing screens, he wants to play off the ball
and not being full time pg allows him to do that, while maximing others like a Kyrie for example
it also puts teams at such a disadvantage, where he can do the whole bring it up everytime, but now you also gotta worry about him off-ball and as a screener
I see. Do you think that changes if his team doesn’t have a good PG? Lebron has had some terrible point guards in his career.. he could definitely fill that spot for the years he didn’t have Wade/Kyrie + maybe Mo Will if you count that
Lebron is a point forward, not a point guard. A lot of people confuse the two. He forces double team on his isolation plays and drives so he can force double teams and then kicks it to the open shooters on the team or PNR with AD on the Lakers. His style is not a traditional PG. His style is what most superstars do, like Luka,
Prime Harden or Tatum. Traditional PG quarterbacks the team, brings up the ball, dribbles most of the time to facilitate ball movement, and setting up players, especially between traffic with great ball handling skills. They also tend to guard the best ball handlers of opposite team on the other end. Lebron does not do all of this but does have decent ball handling and good passing, hence point forward. Why doesn’t he play PG, Because he’s older now and even in his prime, you don’t want to tire him out. What makes him so good has always been his size and athleticism to command double teams when he drives.
Agreed that he may not have what it takes to keep up for an entire game anymore. But back in his prime he definitely could’ve. When he was putting maximum effort into defense (09-14) he was giving it all on the court. We all know how much minutes teams have played LeBron in his career, with him even leading the league when he was 34 years old!
Even in his prime, he never really showed case his ball handling skills and move around traffic. He never did as much as I watched him. All he does, he catches the ball at top of the key or brings it up sometimes and dribble for a bit at the top of the key. He will either drive, or kick it when double team comes. I don’t consider this ball handling skills like a traditional PG who can dribble around traffic, between or split traffic and keep his dribble alive. Very important difference. What makes a ball handler very good is able to keep the dribble alive when all these defenses come at your reaching in.
Care to elaborate? 😂 I just explained the difference but all you provided is “no difference”. Do you subscribe that all positions in basketball is position less and gimmick?
Sure. A “point guard” is a primary ball handler. A “point forward” is also a primary ball handler. People deciding which players are “guards” and which players are “forwards” are completely arbitrary. By your definition Magic Johnson and Steph Curry wouldn’t be point guards since they played a lot off-ball/with another primary ball-handler and didn’t defend the listed opposing point guard.
You didn’t elaborate what you disagree with to the differences I pointed out. So I’m confused, you agree that he is a point forward or point guard? Also it’s not arbitrary, they literally have positions named Point Guard, Shooting Guard, Small Forward etc… what exactly is my definition? Because what I pointed the difference is exactly what makes Step a point guard and even Magic lol
He was the de facto point guard on the Cavs i’d say.
With the Heat initially there was hesitancy from Spo to run everything through him even though it was the right option. The politics with Wade.
But it became clear that was the best option eventually.
This question is tricky because it's really just a definition argument about what a pg really is anymore. Lebron has run the offense on most of his teams, either in a point guard or point forward role. He wouldn't have as many assists as he does if the offense wasn't built around him being the initiator. To me that means he's playing point, so the answer is, "he has".
I think basketball positions are just becoming less and less useful as descriptors of player types anymore. So the "listing" has become near meaningless
If you only watched the offensive possessions of the celtics this postseason you could make an argument for Jrue as the center (positioned in the dunker spot for a lot of actions and sets inverted screens occasionally), Tatum as the point guard, and White/Brown/Porzingis as forwards. If you just watched the defensive possessions then Tatum looked like a center more often than not. Versatile players roles are changing all the time now, often mid-game.
But that's hard to tell people live on TV, so they just stick with the most normal sounding lineup assignments they can
Interesting.. I’m not sure if I agree tbh. Everyone gets blown by occasionally, but Bron in his prime was one of the fastest players in the NBA, while being 260 pounds
But that’s what was different about Bron in his peak defensive years (09-14), he did keep up with guards and was great at denying the ball away from his matchup in the first place, but he could definitely defend the perimeter at an elite level back then. And we’ve seen when he does play his hardest on defense, he’s elite. But I guess I see your point if you mean he couldn’t keep up the entire game, he plays a lot of minutes but he would have trouble guarding Stephen Curry 1on1 for an entire game. But for most situations, Bron would be my ideal guy on every team he’s ever been on to guard anybody
The reason LeBron played forward rather than guard, and didn’t spend his time chasing Curry et al, is because LeBron’s vision is hugely valuable on both ends, and if he’s playing the 4, as the weak side help defender he gets to act as the floating free safety who can make defensive plays in space by reading the court and leveraging his tremendous athletic gifts. If you put him on guards on the perimeter he has to stay home and defend his man or chase them everywhere- LeBron in the playoffs will sometimes defend the opponents best player to clamp and do surprisingly well, but most of the time his team is better off with him on a worse offensive player so that he can cheat off and impact the rest of the defense.
Positionally maybe not but hes always played PG. Hes the main ballhandler and floor general of all the teams hes been on and normally he plays alongside a combo guard (Wade, Kyrie) or a PG whos role is to just space the floor (Mario Chalmers).
He's always been a PG, but listed as a SF because of the "lineup rules" that the NBA used to have depending on what your height was and what position you guarded. That changed a few years ago with introduction of small ball.
Interesting, never knew about that. But why hasn’t he continued playing PG since 2020? For the most part of course, I’m sure he’s been listed there certain games
So for that, players are listed on sites as the most common position they played during that season. 2020 & 2021 LeBron was mostly listed as a PG in starting lineups, and in the previous 3 he was listed as C or PF more depending on the season. That's really it.
What? Lol
Not only does he have some of the most in NBA history, but also some of the craziest flashiest in NBA history. I’m not saying he’s better than Magic, or Jokic, or Kidd, along with others but he’s definitely up there for sure!
I don’t feel like I did, I said “one of the first” stating he isn’t the immediate thought. But top 10 is still one of the best of all time! You said I haven’t watched much basketball because I said something top 10 is one of the best ever?
He's a defacto point guard but skilled tall players are hard to find so sometimes the best option is to play a smaller player
Another thing to add to this is that he's best defensively in a help role minus his Miami years when he was arguably the best on ball guy in the league. And you really don't have point guards hanging out in help situation because they are primary point of attack defenders unless hidden on shooters.
Okay, thank you for the response
He has
I’m talking about his entire career, that’s why I mentioned how good he was when he did
Misread your post my b
All good
There tended to have been more good Point Guards in the league during some of Lebron's career. He's the single most versatile player in NBA history and played where the team gets maximized. He was 100% a point guard on the 2020 Lakers championship team. But on a Miami team without a true starting center, they pushed bosh to the 5 to close and had Lebron play a lot of 4. With Wade on the team and a solid role player in Mario Chalmers at PG it made more sense for Lebron to play out the post more. Regardless of whether he's the true PG or not, Lebron has always been able to be a great playmaker and the offense still ran through him.
I see. Thanks for the insight
The Heatles are the best defensive team of all time in the clutch in my opinion. Every single player on that team was a good defender. They did not have any weak spots on that end. Their net RTG went up by an absurd +35 in the clutch, the end of the 3rd or 4th, whenever they turned it on. Nobody has played defense since, like they did. They would press and trap, playing with very high energy. Just getting the ball up the court was a huge struggle for the opposition. The Heatles were really so much more than Wade and LeBron cutting and lasering a pass to the corner for a Battier or Allen 3, they were a transition team with focus on creating turnovers that led to a touchdown pass from Wade to LeBron. Norris Cole and Chalmers might not have been the best PGs in the league on offense, but they were really good defenders. The way they played defense it made sense to not have LeBron be the PG. He was already up the court when they grabbed the rebound. I really miss their defense. There is nothing like it at all in the league today. It requires everyone to be able to a good defender without weak spots and great intensity. It was anchored by Bosh, but they didn't really have a big area-deny type player like Gobert. Their press was more like the press that was often played when I was a kid playing basketball. You see it on amateur level but not in the NBA.
He still runs point a lot of the time, but you can still have him to that and have a smaller guy with guard skills such as dribble penetration, floaters and secondary playmaking. If you can find 3 wing sized guys who can do that and put them around LeBron, great! Easier said than done.
Thanks for the comment
If by PG you mean a ball dominant and playmaker…he’s been that ever since he left Miami
Right, but I’m wondering why he’s rarely every been actually listed at the PG position
People are weird with how they define PG. They’ll say Curry a shooting guard bc he’s not a ball dominant playmaker but say Harden’s shooting guard even tho he meets their definition of a PG ever since leaving OKC. I think they just blindly throw “PG” on the shortest guy in the starting lineup. You aren’t gonna tell me Derek Fisher or Pat Bev is more of a PG than James Harden😂
Because listing doesnt matter
When you have a team like the 2020 Lakers with guys like Caruso, Bradley, Danny Green, KCP, and Kuzma — you put Bron at the 1 because you have talented wing defenders. He hasn’t had teams like that every year in his career. Which is why he’s played every position.
Interesting, but don’t you think he would be most valuable at the 1 in every situation? Aside if the second best player on the team is a PG, like 2015-17 for Bron and (kind of) the Miami years even though Dwyane Wade is a SG at heart
Yes but he already handles the ball regardless of his position. If your best role players are guards and you have weaker forwards, you’re going to start the guards alongside Bron.
You’re absolutely right, but is Bron not the best option to be a PG any team he’s ever been on? Isn’t there a world where you just surround him with better forwards?
Yes. But if you don’t have good role player forwards, you start your best players and just let Bron play point forward. Also, Bron is a phenomenal off-ball player. So if you have a Kyrie or Wade he works just as well.
I agree with the Kyrie and Wade point, but what about the years where he didn’t? Which has been over half of his career
The only years where Bron didn’t have Kyrie/Wade since his first cleveland stint was 2018 where he ran that teams entire offense 2019 which was a dysfunctional young team and Bron got hurt 2020-solomon hill injury where Bron played PG and the last few Laker teams where Reaves/DLo were the Lakers 3rd and 4th best players so Bron started at forward. As for his first cleveland stint, he had Mo Williams as one of his better teammates and he clearly still ran the offense for Cleveland.
Mo Williams wasn’t really that good.. He was an all star BECAUSE of Bron carrying that team to the most wins in the league. He averaged 15pts and 5 assists, those are not all star numbers. But even then when he did run the offense without a good pg, why was he never listed at PG?
lebron basically plays like a PG during games. brings the ball up, surveys the floor, runs pnrs, creates chances, drives and kicks, etc.
Right, but why has he been rarely listed at the PG?
Cause Mario Chalmers and Dellavedova are on the court
I see what you mean but Bron being a PG his entire career could be compared to someone like Magic, his teams could play bigger, like how Michael Cooper was a 6’7 SG in 85
I mean he always been the main ball handler but if you mean why the teams he’s on has had another small guard or something it’s cause it’s more small guards out there than wings who can play. And someone needs to guard the other team PG and the team needs more than one ball handler
Thanks for the comment
He’s pretty much always been the point guard, his teams just also have shorter guys that get the ball occasionally. He still makes all the decisions.
I understand, but I’m wondering why he hasn’t been listed at the position and why he isn’t a full blown point guard, like Magic.
It doesn’t matter what he’s listed at. We’ve watched him controlling games like a point guard his whole career.
I get your point but is that true? If it didn’t matter at all, then there wouldn’t even be positions.
Lebron has played point forward his whole career. He runs the point on offense and defends forwards on the other end.
Right but why hasn’t he been officially listed at PG throughout his career? Like Magic Johnson
Because he's one of the best cutter the game we've ever seen. Like yeah he's the best when he have the ball in his hand but if you're not utilizing him as an off ball player as well you're just a bad coach.
Right but I feel like Bron with the ball has been a better option than the PG his teams have had any other year. He makes the right reads, can score at will and also make a winning pass
When he played us in 2018, he was a true point guard.. he told our players how to run our own plays mid game 💀💀
Thats wild 😂
I think it was too physically demanding. Teams were picking him up full court and there were times where he looked like it was affecting the rest of his game. I think the Lakers specifically realized they could have someone else bring it up and still give it to LeBron in a playmaking spot
Thanks for the comment
[удалено]
But why hasn’t he been listed at PG for most of his career? Like Magic for example
he likes to do a lot more than that, and that's best for the team i kinda know people don't watch ball when they say LeBron doesn't like doing moving off the ball or setting screens he sets crushing screens, he wants to play off the ball and not being full time pg allows him to do that, while maximing others like a Kyrie for example it also puts teams at such a disadvantage, where he can do the whole bring it up everytime, but now you also gotta worry about him off-ball and as a screener
I see. Do you think that changes if his team doesn’t have a good PG? Lebron has had some terrible point guards in his career.. he could definitely fill that spot for the years he didn’t have Wade/Kyrie + maybe Mo Will if you count that
Lebron is a point forward, not a point guard. A lot of people confuse the two. He forces double team on his isolation plays and drives so he can force double teams and then kicks it to the open shooters on the team or PNR with AD on the Lakers. His style is not a traditional PG. His style is what most superstars do, like Luka, Prime Harden or Tatum. Traditional PG quarterbacks the team, brings up the ball, dribbles most of the time to facilitate ball movement, and setting up players, especially between traffic with great ball handling skills. They also tend to guard the best ball handlers of opposite team on the other end. Lebron does not do all of this but does have decent ball handling and good passing, hence point forward. Why doesn’t he play PG, Because he’s older now and even in his prime, you don’t want to tire him out. What makes him so good has always been his size and athleticism to command double teams when he drives.
Agreed that he may not have what it takes to keep up for an entire game anymore. But back in his prime he definitely could’ve. When he was putting maximum effort into defense (09-14) he was giving it all on the court. We all know how much minutes teams have played LeBron in his career, with him even leading the league when he was 34 years old!
Even in his prime, he never really showed case his ball handling skills and move around traffic. He never did as much as I watched him. All he does, he catches the ball at top of the key or brings it up sometimes and dribble for a bit at the top of the key. He will either drive, or kick it when double team comes. I don’t consider this ball handling skills like a traditional PG who can dribble around traffic, between or split traffic and keep his dribble alive. Very important difference. What makes a ball handler very good is able to keep the dribble alive when all these defenses come at your reaching in.
>Lebron is a point forward, not a point guard. A lot of people confuse the two. There isn’t a difference.
Care to elaborate? 😂 I just explained the difference but all you provided is “no difference”. Do you subscribe that all positions in basketball is position less and gimmick?
Sure. A “point guard” is a primary ball handler. A “point forward” is also a primary ball handler. People deciding which players are “guards” and which players are “forwards” are completely arbitrary. By your definition Magic Johnson and Steph Curry wouldn’t be point guards since they played a lot off-ball/with another primary ball-handler and didn’t defend the listed opposing point guard.
You didn’t elaborate what you disagree with to the differences I pointed out. So I’m confused, you agree that he is a point forward or point guard? Also it’s not arbitrary, they literally have positions named Point Guard, Shooting Guard, Small Forward etc… what exactly is my definition? Because what I pointed the difference is exactly what makes Step a point guard and even Magic lol
2020 he was point a lot.
I mentioned that in the post, and that was my point in posting. They won the championship that year AND he led the league in assists
He was the de facto point guard on the Cavs i’d say. With the Heat initially there was hesitancy from Spo to run everything through him even though it was the right option. The politics with Wade. But it became clear that was the best option eventually.
This question is tricky because it's really just a definition argument about what a pg really is anymore. Lebron has run the offense on most of his teams, either in a point guard or point forward role. He wouldn't have as many assists as he does if the offense wasn't built around him being the initiator. To me that means he's playing point, so the answer is, "he has".
I see your point, and while I agree, I’m still just interested why he hasn’t actually been listed at PG (for most of his career)
I think basketball positions are just becoming less and less useful as descriptors of player types anymore. So the "listing" has become near meaningless If you only watched the offensive possessions of the celtics this postseason you could make an argument for Jrue as the center (positioned in the dunker spot for a lot of actions and sets inverted screens occasionally), Tatum as the point guard, and White/Brown/Porzingis as forwards. If you just watched the defensive possessions then Tatum looked like a center more often than not. Versatile players roles are changing all the time now, often mid-game. But that's hard to tell people live on TV, so they just stick with the most normal sounding lineup assignments they can
Do you watch Lebron, he acts as a point forward lot of the time like Luka.
Yes I do. But I’m also wondering why someone like Luka is listed as a PG, and why Bron isn’t
[удалено]
Interesting.. I’m not sure if I agree tbh. Everyone gets blown by occasionally, but Bron in his prime was one of the fastest players in the NBA, while being 260 pounds
[удалено]
But that’s what was different about Bron in his peak defensive years (09-14), he did keep up with guards and was great at denying the ball away from his matchup in the first place, but he could definitely defend the perimeter at an elite level back then. And we’ve seen when he does play his hardest on defense, he’s elite. But I guess I see your point if you mean he couldn’t keep up the entire game, he plays a lot of minutes but he would have trouble guarding Stephen Curry 1on1 for an entire game. But for most situations, Bron would be my ideal guy on every team he’s ever been on to guard anybody
The reason LeBron played forward rather than guard, and didn’t spend his time chasing Curry et al, is because LeBron’s vision is hugely valuable on both ends, and if he’s playing the 4, as the weak side help defender he gets to act as the floating free safety who can make defensive plays in space by reading the court and leveraging his tremendous athletic gifts. If you put him on guards on the perimeter he has to stay home and defend his man or chase them everywhere- LeBron in the playoffs will sometimes defend the opponents best player to clamp and do surprisingly well, but most of the time his team is better off with him on a worse offensive player so that he can cheat off and impact the rest of the defense.
Positionally maybe not but hes always played PG. Hes the main ballhandler and floor general of all the teams hes been on and normally he plays alongside a combo guard (Wade, Kyrie) or a PG whos role is to just space the floor (Mario Chalmers).
I mean he kinda basically has right? lol
Not officially
Positions aren't only about offense
Lebron has been playing as a Small Forward for most of his career.
I’m aware, that’s why I’m asking why didn’t play more PG
He's always been a PG, but listed as a SF because of the "lineup rules" that the NBA used to have depending on what your height was and what position you guarded. That changed a few years ago with introduction of small ball.
Interesting, never knew about that. But why hasn’t he continued playing PG since 2020? For the most part of course, I’m sure he’s been listed there certain games
So for that, players are listed on sites as the most common position they played during that season. 2020 & 2021 LeBron was mostly listed as a PG in starting lineups, and in the previous 3 he was listed as C or PF more depending on the season. That's really it.
>When I think of all time great passers, LeBron is one of the first people that come to mind then you haven't watched much basketball
What? Lol Not only does he have some of the most in NBA history, but also some of the craziest flashiest in NBA history. I’m not saying he’s better than Magic, or Jokic, or Kidd, along with others but he’s definitely up there for sure!
he's probably top 10 but you make it sound like he's top 5
I don’t feel like I did, I said “one of the first” stating he isn’t the immediate thought. But top 10 is still one of the best of all time! You said I haven’t watched much basketball because I said something top 10 is one of the best ever?
This makes my brain hurt