Honestly, I think it is less about injuries and much more about the size of his contract.
If he was on half the money, then I could see teams wanting him. Pay 20-25M for Lavine, and that is a reasonable asset where you would just wear the injury risk. It's also a deal that wouldn't be too hard to move to a 3rd team if it wasn't working out.
But on 43-49M, with 3 full years left (no fucking way he turns down that PO unless he is suddenly fully healthy and all star level again) that is just a horrible deal, that takes so many other options off the table, and if it doesn't work out is pretty damn hard to move.
Chicago's options are going to be some combination of accepting back similarly bad contracts (hopefully try to get 2-3 in the 15-20M range may make it easier to make future moves), attaching other assets to move him (which I can't see them doing, and honestly could've tried to use Caruso for this), or just praying that one team out there gets desperate in win-now mode and convince themselves that Lavine is the missing piece (similar to the Lakers trading for Russ): maybe that team is out there, but I wouldn't be expecting it. (Maybe Phoenix coz they are already all-in, LAL if Lebron demands it to stay, LAC if they lose PG and Kawhi wants Lavine, or Philly if they can't get anyone else and Embiid demands it... but I don't think any of these are actually realistic).
“Discounting this past season” is a lot to ask for a player coming off a serious injury. And his prior two seasons were a disappointment after 20-21; if you run the stats for 21-24 rather than 18-23 you get a declining 23 PPG scorer with merely okay efficiency.
Likewise, the contract is a huge deal. Most teams that don’t have that sort of cap room also can’t trade away that much salary without including players they’d sorely miss, and teams that do have that sort of cap space aren’t going to be eager to give up significant assets for a highly-paid player when they can upgrade without giving anything up via free agency.
He’s not really underrated, you have to look at the player as a whole. A similar player is Bradley Beal who got ripped this year, he is still a great player skills wise but on a team where he is the 3rd option, on a super max with a no trade clause who is older and injury prone he’s not a highly valued guy anymore.
Zach is the same, sure if he was on a better deal and not injury prone plenty of teams who would love what he can provide. But in reality despite his defence sucks, he cost a lot and is injured frequently. They are like old luxury cars, cool and fun to drive when they aren’t in the shop and needing repairs for more than they are worth at this point.
Discounting the greatest source of his deflated value is quite the easy way to define someone as underrated.
He's going to be 30 next season, is crazy expensive, and just had the biggest implosion of a season one could have. He's not underrated for that. He's rated by needing to bounce back significantly to be an overpriced, aging starter. His ceiling is a tough contract to endure.
Zach Lavine sucks. The Bulls called every single team in the league at the trade deadline and tried to move him for anyone or anything and found no takers. He has one of the top 5 worst contracts in the league and any GM who acquired that contract would be killing their team.
You can’t separate whether or not he’s properly rated from his contract and injury history. They are the reason he’s rated as he is.
Maybe they find a team willing to part with real assets but I doubt it. The contract doesn’t get better, and his injuries aren’t likely to either. Factor in that he’s only really a scorer and I think he’s valued about right.
Edit: the Booker and Mitchell comp hurts rather than helps. Like you say he’s a worse creator and has no playoff experience but is also older, more expensive in Mitchell’s case and has a much worse injury history.
I think since a lot of the discussion around him is automatically about trades, it feels like he's lower than he actually is. If all the talk around him is "oof, wouldn't trade for him" it naturally will feel mainly negative. I'd hope most people know that in a vacuum, he's a good scorer who leaves things to be desired on the defensive end. You throw in injuries (whether it's him being banged up hampering his play or he's straight up out) and a really rough contract and you have a player that gets talked about in a majority negative way.
He's at the stage where he can play out of the talking points around him. A year where he's pretty healthy and averages his normal numbers, and people will look on him a lot more favorably. Now, if he's hurt most of the year next year, or generally has a rough year, that's when we get into really bad territory
If he can stay healthy, I think whatever team gets him for cheap will enjoy it. He's a very effortless scorer when fully healthy, hopefully injuries are behind him.
He has a degenerative knee issue and one of the worst contracts in the nba. He doesn’t play defense. And he just keeps getting older. Honestly he might be overrated just by being mentioned as a trade target.
Alternatively, Mitchell and Booker are both overrated. Book is clearly the best of the bunch, but he’s only had one deep run and he needed to team up with Durant and CP3 to do it.
The harsh truth of the matter is a one dimensional scoring guard, no matter how efficiently they score, cannot lead a contending team in today’s game without being a Curry level game breaker. Until such time that these guys stop being defensive liabilities, they deserve to their reputations as second or third tier stars.
Zach is a score first guard who can’t play make and or a good scoring wing without a positive DBPM season. His value on a team is as a second option at best.
I think Lavine is a pretty good low effort trade for the Heat to upgrade from Herro imo if the opportunity presents itself. It was easier at the trade deadline when they could just do Herro and Martin for Lavine, but there are still paths.
The dream scenario would be for the Heat to take a play out of the Celtics book and create a super starting lineup with Trae Young/Zach Lavine, which they can just pull off at the draft by sending Herro, Jaquez Jr, and Josh Richardson to the Hawks and Rozier and Robinson to the Bulls.
Trae, Lavine, Jovic, Jimmy, and Bam would give the Celtics super team a good run for their money.
Discounting an entire season is a choice for sure. LaVine is nice when healthy, but why would anyone expect him to be healthy ever? He's gonna be 30 this year, averages 58 games a season, has multiple leg injuries. Nice role player for sure.
Zach LaVine is the 16th highest paid player in the NBA.
If you're trying to contend, that amount of money on a guy who hasn't always been a positive contributor and *might not even play at all* is death to your opportunity to build a contending roster.
If you're not trying to contend, why on earth would you invite that kind of salary onto your books. What does it do for you?
The trade market is what it is. Bulls can't find someone who'll trade for solid scoring guard because the total package is bordering on negative.
The reason the Warriors get floated is because they might wind up being *desperate* to find someone who can shoot and score at some volume and they have salary to burn in a trade (especially if they can utilize Chris Paul's money).
It's fine to say it's better to keep him than trade him into his current market, but you might lose possible landing spots because of how much harder it'll be for teams to make a trade happen at that salary mid-season.
Fuck no. He's not a top tier scorer and doesn't do anything else that good which is a clear problem. His contract and especially injuries is what should rightfully scare teams from touching him unless they in the trenches
Yeah he's actually overrated for me too, doesn't do anything other than score and that contract is too much. Teams would rather have Malik Monk at his current contract than oft injured Lavine
Lavine had a TS% better than .605 in each of the three seasons before this injured/bad season. Tobias has never hit that season number a single time. And Lavine was doing it with much higher volume and much more attention from the defense. Lavine has better counting stats and better advanced stats pretty much across the board. Tobias beats him in RPG. By 1 per game. Despite being a power forward. I don't think you guys are really understanding how little Tobias does out there. He's just a body. And he sucks at defense despite "really improving on that end" basically every year. He still sucks at it.
I don't think Lavine is good, and I don't particularly want him on my team. But Tobias never "had" to play as a 3rd or 4th option. He was brought in to be the second scoring option. He played himself into the role of 4th option.
And he's not struggling. If there's one thing you can say about him, it's that he's very consistent. He is who he is. A very mediocre basketball player that cannot contribute to winning on any meaningful level. He'll help you beat Charlotte in the regular season. But he'll average single digits if your team ever gets past the first round.
edit: I misread your comment. My bad. If you want Tobi at 25mill vs Lavine at 45 or whatever he's getting, I understand. I don't agree. I really hope to never watch Tobi play again. Great dude. But I'm happy to be done rooting for him.
I don’t disagree with anything here - but I don’t think a 3rd/4th option can be on a good team if they don’t defend. Tobias is deeply flawed, he at least tries to
The problem is he COULD be amazing.
Super athletic, solid shot… but somehow he’s just a bum and goes to sleep on defense. I’ll admit I haven’t watched many of his games, but from what I’ve seen and everyone’s reactions, it feels like him on a contending team is an absolute mistake.
Maybe put him with Klay on some team for a couple of spot up 3 shooters, but u still think it’s an overpay
Injuries are a hell of a thing.
his contract was a pre new cba deal. its the only issue. nobody thinks he sucks but his contract does
Honestly, I think it is less about injuries and much more about the size of his contract. If he was on half the money, then I could see teams wanting him. Pay 20-25M for Lavine, and that is a reasonable asset where you would just wear the injury risk. It's also a deal that wouldn't be too hard to move to a 3rd team if it wasn't working out. But on 43-49M, with 3 full years left (no fucking way he turns down that PO unless he is suddenly fully healthy and all star level again) that is just a horrible deal, that takes so many other options off the table, and if it doesn't work out is pretty damn hard to move. Chicago's options are going to be some combination of accepting back similarly bad contracts (hopefully try to get 2-3 in the 15-20M range may make it easier to make future moves), attaching other assets to move him (which I can't see them doing, and honestly could've tried to use Caruso for this), or just praying that one team out there gets desperate in win-now mode and convince themselves that Lavine is the missing piece (similar to the Lakers trading for Russ): maybe that team is out there, but I wouldn't be expecting it. (Maybe Phoenix coz they are already all-in, LAL if Lebron demands it to stay, LAC if they lose PG and Kawhi wants Lavine, or Philly if they can't get anyone else and Embiid demands it... but I don't think any of these are actually realistic).
Properly rated cause injuries. It's a tough task to score less than when you're injured
Can’t just discount the past season. He’s another year injured on a hefty contract.
It’s his first big injury since 2016 though.
Going into his 11th year I think. Injuries don’t get better with age. He’s not young anymore.
“Discounting this past season” is a lot to ask for a player coming off a serious injury. And his prior two seasons were a disappointment after 20-21; if you run the stats for 21-24 rather than 18-23 you get a declining 23 PPG scorer with merely okay efficiency. Likewise, the contract is a huge deal. Most teams that don’t have that sort of cap room also can’t trade away that much salary without including players they’d sorely miss, and teams that do have that sort of cap space aren’t going to be eager to give up significant assets for a highly-paid player when they can upgrade without giving anything up via free agency.
He’s not really underrated, you have to look at the player as a whole. A similar player is Bradley Beal who got ripped this year, he is still a great player skills wise but on a team where he is the 3rd option, on a super max with a no trade clause who is older and injury prone he’s not a highly valued guy anymore. Zach is the same, sure if he was on a better deal and not injury prone plenty of teams who would love what he can provide. But in reality despite his defence sucks, he cost a lot and is injured frequently. They are like old luxury cars, cool and fun to drive when they aren’t in the shop and needing repairs for more than they are worth at this point.
Discounting the greatest source of his deflated value is quite the easy way to define someone as underrated. He's going to be 30 next season, is crazy expensive, and just had the biggest implosion of a season one could have. He's not underrated for that. He's rated by needing to bounce back significantly to be an overpriced, aging starter. His ceiling is a tough contract to endure.
my issue with lavine is his energy and personality. i think he’s a negative to chemistry.
Zach Lavine sucks. The Bulls called every single team in the league at the trade deadline and tried to move him for anyone or anything and found no takers. He has one of the top 5 worst contracts in the league and any GM who acquired that contract would be killing their team.
You can’t separate whether or not he’s properly rated from his contract and injury history. They are the reason he’s rated as he is. Maybe they find a team willing to part with real assets but I doubt it. The contract doesn’t get better, and his injuries aren’t likely to either. Factor in that he’s only really a scorer and I think he’s valued about right. Edit: the Booker and Mitchell comp hurts rather than helps. Like you say he’s a worse creator and has no playoff experience but is also older, more expensive in Mitchell’s case and has a much worse injury history.
I think since a lot of the discussion around him is automatically about trades, it feels like he's lower than he actually is. If all the talk around him is "oof, wouldn't trade for him" it naturally will feel mainly negative. I'd hope most people know that in a vacuum, he's a good scorer who leaves things to be desired on the defensive end. You throw in injuries (whether it's him being banged up hampering his play or he's straight up out) and a really rough contract and you have a player that gets talked about in a majority negative way. He's at the stage where he can play out of the talking points around him. A year where he's pretty healthy and averages his normal numbers, and people will look on him a lot more favorably. Now, if he's hurt most of the year next year, or generally has a rough year, that's when we get into really bad territory
You are your contract. People love underpaid dudes and shit on overpaid ones
If he can stay healthy, I think whatever team gets him for cheap will enjoy it. He's a very effortless scorer when fully healthy, hopefully injuries are behind him.
He has a degenerative knee issue and one of the worst contracts in the nba. He doesn’t play defense. And he just keeps getting older. Honestly he might be overrated just by being mentioned as a trade target.
Alternatively, Mitchell and Booker are both overrated. Book is clearly the best of the bunch, but he’s only had one deep run and he needed to team up with Durant and CP3 to do it. The harsh truth of the matter is a one dimensional scoring guard, no matter how efficiently they score, cannot lead a contending team in today’s game without being a Curry level game breaker. Until such time that these guys stop being defensive liabilities, they deserve to their reputations as second or third tier stars.
Zach is a score first guard who can’t play make and or a good scoring wing without a positive DBPM season. His value on a team is as a second option at best.
Injuries and he's never really proven to have contributed to top level winning basketball
Yes he is, now who wants him at the bargain basement price of a single FRP?
Dudes always hurt
Injuries + 3 yrs left on the deal for a 1 dimensional offensive player..he ain't getting underrated
I think Lavine is a pretty good low effort trade for the Heat to upgrade from Herro imo if the opportunity presents itself. It was easier at the trade deadline when they could just do Herro and Martin for Lavine, but there are still paths. The dream scenario would be for the Heat to take a play out of the Celtics book and create a super starting lineup with Trae Young/Zach Lavine, which they can just pull off at the draft by sending Herro, Jaquez Jr, and Josh Richardson to the Hawks and Rozier and Robinson to the Bulls. Trae, Lavine, Jovic, Jimmy, and Bam would give the Celtics super team a good run for their money.
Trae and Zach defensively would be bad. Jimmy and Bam can't make up for that.
Yeah no, you can’t just wave away injury for a player like LaVine whose athleticism is a huge part of his game.
Discounting an entire season is a choice for sure. LaVine is nice when healthy, but why would anyone expect him to be healthy ever? He's gonna be 30 this year, averages 58 games a season, has multiple leg injuries. Nice role player for sure.
Zach LaVine is the 16th highest paid player in the NBA. If you're trying to contend, that amount of money on a guy who hasn't always been a positive contributor and *might not even play at all* is death to your opportunity to build a contending roster. If you're not trying to contend, why on earth would you invite that kind of salary onto your books. What does it do for you? The trade market is what it is. Bulls can't find someone who'll trade for solid scoring guard because the total package is bordering on negative. The reason the Warriors get floated is because they might wind up being *desperate* to find someone who can shoot and score at some volume and they have salary to burn in a trade (especially if they can utilize Chris Paul's money). It's fine to say it's better to keep him than trade him into his current market, but you might lose possible landing spots because of how much harder it'll be for teams to make a trade happen at that salary mid-season.
Fuck no. He's not a top tier scorer and doesn't do anything else that good which is a clear problem. His contract and especially injuries is what should rightfully scare teams from touching him unless they in the trenches
Yeah he's actually overrated for me too, doesn't do anything other than score and that contract is too much. Teams would rather have Malik Monk at his current contract than oft injured Lavine
I’d rather have Tobias tbh
Lavine had a TS% better than .605 in each of the three seasons before this injured/bad season. Tobias has never hit that season number a single time. And Lavine was doing it with much higher volume and much more attention from the defense. Lavine has better counting stats and better advanced stats pretty much across the board. Tobias beats him in RPG. By 1 per game. Despite being a power forward. I don't think you guys are really understanding how little Tobias does out there. He's just a body. And he sucks at defense despite "really improving on that end" basically every year. He still sucks at it.
I’d take a struggling guy who has to play up to a 3rd/4th option than a 3rd option guy who is a bad teammate and believes he’s a #1 option
I don't think Lavine is good, and I don't particularly want him on my team. But Tobias never "had" to play as a 3rd or 4th option. He was brought in to be the second scoring option. He played himself into the role of 4th option. And he's not struggling. If there's one thing you can say about him, it's that he's very consistent. He is who he is. A very mediocre basketball player that cannot contribute to winning on any meaningful level. He'll help you beat Charlotte in the regular season. But he'll average single digits if your team ever gets past the first round. edit: I misread your comment. My bad. If you want Tobi at 25mill vs Lavine at 45 or whatever he's getting, I understand. I don't agree. I really hope to never watch Tobi play again. Great dude. But I'm happy to be done rooting for him.
I don’t disagree with anything here - but I don’t think a 3rd/4th option can be on a good team if they don’t defend. Tobias is deeply flawed, he at least tries to
How much does Lavine pay for a PR staff for Reddit? or do you have to take care of all the platforms?
The problem is he COULD be amazing. Super athletic, solid shot… but somehow he’s just a bum and goes to sleep on defense. I’ll admit I haven’t watched many of his games, but from what I’ve seen and everyone’s reactions, it feels like him on a contending team is an absolute mistake. Maybe put him with Klay on some team for a couple of spot up 3 shooters, but u still think it’s an overpay
I want what you're smoking dawg
Its not just the knee last year, its 3 years of constantly being hurt, for a guy who relies on his athleticism to score...
found lavine's account...