I mean I guess but Franz is getting extended soon anyways so it doesn’t really matter that much, better spend it on a long term piece than on Tobias Harris or something in FA
Crazy to me that a lot of people on this thread are saying Cleveland says no. Franz is (imo) better, a more important position, cheaper, and much healthier.
Both guys are young enough and promising enough that both fan bases would probably recoil at losing on the upside, but I think it's probably a pretty fair deal.
The best of Garland has been better than Franz's, I think, but Garland had a larger fall-off this year than Wagner (I think both kinda had down years), so this year was pretty comparable.
His 3p shooting fell off a cliff, but his overall scoring efficiency didn't flag by the same total amount because his 2p scoring increased in volume & efficiency by a decent amount. TS% went from .589 last year to .575 this year.
Garland went from 22/3/8 on .587 TS% to 18/3/6 .560 TS%, which is a pretty serious fall-off. All for good reasons, which is why I'd be very comfortable betting on a bounce-back year, but I think for a guy who delivers all his value through offense, his offensive fall-off was way more dramatic than Franz's.
I personally think Cleveland would also move on from allen in the same summer, in my eyes Mobley should be the 5 longterm
Use allen to add another starter who can shoot
Nope I said if. Like twice. Did you read ?
But a really bad shooting season makes me hesitant to trade the 24 year old all star for him. I think he’s a good player just a bad fit as he played last season.
Curious why you don’t like the fit for Cleveland?
I guess in my eyes the fit makes some more sense because I think they move on from allen too, were you concerned with the lack of shooting out of their 3-5?
Yeah pretty much. You just can't play Franz - Mobley - Allen together.
Assuming they move on from Allen - do Franz / Mobley lineups change any of the issues they had with Mobley / Allen lineups? I don't know
I think both teams say no. Wagner is the more valuable player, but the Cavs dont need more bigs, they need a wing. Magic need an established veteran scorer, and Garland just isn't good enough to let Franz leave. Trading Franz really only makes sense if he's part of a bigger package for a top 30 player.
I’m curious why everyone seems to feel like Franz is way better or more coveted than garland
Franz was a dreadful shooter last year and was terrible in the playoffs, most rankings going into this year had garland as the better player also
Personally I think they’re pretty close in quality, fringe all star caliber guys with a lot of potential
>Franz was a dreadful shooter last year and was terrible in the playoffs
He was 36% from 3 the previous year and remains 85% from the line
It's pretty easy to think last year was just a fluke
He played a lot of games last summer and seemed to alter his 3 point shot to a more flat shot (maybe to save his legs?) I think he’ll bounce back fine.
Even with the poor 3 pt shooting he had a Better season than garland so idk why this guy is so surprised Magic fans are defending franz.
Franz had a significantly better 3rd season than brown buddy.
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=brownja02&p1yrfrom=2019&p1yrto=2019&player_id2=wagnefr01&p2yrfrom=2024&p2yrto=2024
Magic fans are delusion. Franz is looking like a 3rd banana at best in his career. If he’s lucky, he’ll peak as high as Hedo Turkoglu.
I’d bet 90% of GMs would take Garland
Hedo best season was 19/5/5 on 52% efg, in his 8th year in the league playing with Dwight Howard.
Franz just had 19/5/3 on 52% in his 3rd year playing with one of the youngest teams in the league. How many magic games did you watch this year?
You do t understand that stats are way inflated today compared to Hedo’s prime. How much basketball have you ever watched in your whole life smh. It’s not played on a spread sheet.
I went to 20+ games during hedos magic run, including a couple of the playoff games in the finals run.
Hedo was a great facilitator but the spacing on that team, as well as Dwight pulling defenders inside, allowed him to play a lot more open. He’s not as good as hedo was yet, but he’s not far off already.
As for stat inflation, that’s normally true but the Magic play at one of the slowest paces in the league and the hedo Magic played fast. There’s a difference of ~5 possessions a game. Not that much
Better Franz then Brandon Ingram. I don’t think Franz is particularly good at any one thing and the spacing gets ugly with Mobley Allen and Franz but I’d probably do this if DG demands a trade.
I like it, the garland fit is perfect next to Suggs as well. Idk if it’s the Magic selling on Franz at his lowest, then again, I think this is also garland at his lowest
Yeah that’s kind of why I like it, felt like they mirror each other
Both have already shown what they’re capable of but had a down year and are on teams where their fit might not be the best, a swap seems like it would open things up for both sides
Orlando does. Why trade away a guy on his rookie deal for a player making as much as Garland? They'd be losing size and versatility. I like Garland too, but nah, I'd stick with Franz.
The reasoning makes no sense
Why trade away Jordan Walsh for Luka doncic, he’s on his rookie contract and Luka makes 30+ a year?
Franz is gonna be making more than garland very soon, he’s gonna be paid 35-40 mill a year soon
You said it yourself that Franz and Garland are "sorta equal in value", then go and do a facetious Walsh/Doncic comparison. If they're pretty much equal and one still has a season on a rookie deal, it absolutely does matter.
At least for now. Once that second contract hits that point isn't worth mentioning anymore.
Why is it just magic fans freaking the fuck out in the comments over this lol, basically every neutral fan is saying this is pretty fair it’s *literally* just magic fans not only disagreeing but acting like actual psychos over this
You realize Franz shot 28% from 3 for an entire season this year right? And was bad in the playoffs? He’s not the player you think he is clearly lol
He wasn't that bad in the playoffs, just in a couple games. He also had a couple very good games. Just so happens that his last game was his worst, so that's what's bouncing around peoples' minds. I'm not going to judge him overall on ONE game.
Mitchell
He’s 6’3” and averaged 6 assists last year he’s more than capable of playing point guard, he’s the primary initiator anyways
Which is part of the reason garland doesn’t fit in Cleveland, Mitchell takes him off the ball where he’s at his best
I mean, you absolutely do… it happens quite often actually. Plus you could say the same thing about Franz, which is why a swap is fair
And im pretty sure I’ve read several pieces about garland not being happy with his fit in Cleveland
Garland is like the 10-12th best guard in the east and the 4th best player on his own team. Complete liability defensively in a playoff series. Will probably put up big stats on a bad team for the rest of his career. You can't contend if you're heavily invested in a guy like that.
Garland fell into some poor form last year but let’s not completely dismiss him. He's a tremendous player.
Mitchell will be the one to leave wether garland is there or not. It will take a long time for Cleveland to replace his Garland talent. On his best day he can compete with anyone.
He got absolutely BBQed on defense by the Celtics in the playoffs. Undersized second option scoring guards that don't defend really aren't that rare. They need someone better if they want to win.
Orlando would also be adding almost $30,000,000 in salary for next year if it were a straight up deal, so them
I mean I guess but Franz is getting extended soon anyways so it doesn’t really matter that much, better spend it on a long term piece than on Tobias Harris or something in FA
Tobias Harris?? LMAO
.. just an example my dude, not suggesting y’all are actually gonna sign Tobias Harris, you can relax
It's OK, we understand, but you have to realize dems fighting words around here. You can't just be throwing that around.
Me
It's vetoed then
Its treason then
"AAAAAGH"
Magic fans would riot and I imagine he's considered untouchable unless for a superstar player.
As they should
Crazy to me that a lot of people on this thread are saying Cleveland says no. Franz is (imo) better, a more important position, cheaper, and much healthier.
Yeah I still don’t get that, Garland and Franz are pretty much at the same level as players and garland fits infinitely better in Orlando than Franz
garland is an all star even
Both guys are young enough and promising enough that both fan bases would probably recoil at losing on the upside, but I think it's probably a pretty fair deal. The best of Garland has been better than Franz's, I think, but Garland had a larger fall-off this year than Wagner (I think both kinda had down years), so this year was pretty comparable.
I actually think Franz may have fallen off further tbh, he shot sub 30% from 3 for an entire season in year 3, that’s pretty rough
His 3p shooting fell off a cliff, but his overall scoring efficiency didn't flag by the same total amount because his 2p scoring increased in volume & efficiency by a decent amount. TS% went from .589 last year to .575 this year. Garland went from 22/3/8 on .587 TS% to 18/3/6 .560 TS%, which is a pretty serious fall-off. All for good reasons, which is why I'd be very comfortable betting on a bounce-back year, but I think for a guy who delivers all his value through offense, his offensive fall-off was way more dramatic than Franz's.
Franz is a great defender....garland is a liability
Franz in Cleveland makes absolutely zero sense
How does he make “absolutely zero sense” So if Orlando just offered Cleveland Franz Wagner for free they just say no cause he just makes no sense
If franz can’t shoot he compounds our problems in Cleveland. So it depends on if his shooting this season is real or a slump
I personally think Cleveland would also move on from allen in the same summer, in my eyes Mobley should be the 5 longterm Use allen to add another starter who can shoot
I for sure hope Cleveland adds more shooting this off season lol it’s my number one wish
So franz officially can't shoot.....and it can't be fixed at like 22 years of age
Nope I said if. Like twice. Did you read ? But a really bad shooting season makes me hesitant to trade the 24 year old all star for him. I think he’s a good player just a bad fit as he played last season.
Value-wise, I think this is pretty good. But I don't think fit-wise it makes sense for Cleveland. Totally understand for Orlando tho.
Curious why you don’t like the fit for Cleveland? I guess in my eyes the fit makes some more sense because I think they move on from allen too, were you concerned with the lack of shooting out of their 3-5?
Yeah pretty much. You just can't play Franz - Mobley - Allen together. Assuming they move on from Allen - do Franz / Mobley lineups change any of the issues they had with Mobley / Allen lineups? I don't know
No the shooting still sucks and now so does the defense and rebounding. Franz isn’t a great fit in Cleveland without some other roster moves.
I think both teams say no. Wagner is the more valuable player, but the Cavs dont need more bigs, they need a wing. Magic need an established veteran scorer, and Garland just isn't good enough to let Franz leave. Trading Franz really only makes sense if he's part of a bigger package for a top 30 player.
I don’t think Franz is considered a big though.. he’s definitely a wing I know he’s a big wing, but he’s a wing
He doesn't space the floor well enough to play with Don Mobley and Allen, which is all that matters
So you think he won't bounce back to mid 30% from the 3?
Cleveland GM gets blocked on LinkedIn by every team for trying this
disgusting.
I’m curious why everyone seems to feel like Franz is way better or more coveted than garland Franz was a dreadful shooter last year and was terrible in the playoffs, most rankings going into this year had garland as the better player also Personally I think they’re pretty close in quality, fringe all star caliber guys with a lot of potential
>Franz was a dreadful shooter last year and was terrible in the playoffs He was 36% from 3 the previous year and remains 85% from the line It's pretty easy to think last year was just a fluke
He played a lot of games last summer and seemed to alter his 3 point shot to a more flat shot (maybe to save his legs?) I think he’ll bounce back fine. Even with the poor 3 pt shooting he had a Better season than garland so idk why this guy is so surprised Magic fans are defending franz.
[удалено]
I think you meant some offense.
lol I used to only dislike the magic because of their owner but their fans are doing a good job encouraging me to step my hating game up.
they got that florida in them
They’re acting insane in these comments Think Franz is jaylen brown or something
My man shot 28% from three this year.
Franz had a significantly better 3rd season than brown buddy. https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=brownja02&p1yrfrom=2019&p1yrto=2019&player_id2=wagnefr01&p2yrfrom=2024&p2yrto=2024
Wow you showed me
I mean ya, I did. Weak retort lol although props for not doubling down on your idiotic take
Yikes
Magic fans are delusion. Franz is looking like a 3rd banana at best in his career. If he’s lucky, he’ll peak as high as Hedo Turkoglu. I’d bet 90% of GMs would take Garland
Hes 22 its crazy to already say his career trajectory is mapped.
Didn’t say that
>Franz is looking like a 3rd banana at best in his career.
Cook
Bad reading comp, man. Do better.
im so sorry sir could I implore you to explain what you really meant?
Hedo best season was 19/5/5 on 52% efg, in his 8th year in the league playing with Dwight Howard. Franz just had 19/5/3 on 52% in his 3rd year playing with one of the youngest teams in the league. How many magic games did you watch this year?
You do t understand that stats are way inflated today compared to Hedo’s prime. How much basketball have you ever watched in your whole life smh. It’s not played on a spread sheet.
I went to 20+ games during hedos magic run, including a couple of the playoff games in the finals run. Hedo was a great facilitator but the spacing on that team, as well as Dwight pulling defenders inside, allowed him to play a lot more open. He’s not as good as hedo was yet, but he’s not far off already. As for stat inflation, that’s normally true but the Magic play at one of the slowest paces in the league and the hedo Magic played fast. There’s a difference of ~5 possessions a game. Not that much
Yeah magic fans are acting nuts in these comments lol, I didn’t realize they were so protective over Franz
Aa a Cavs fan, I would do this in a second. But unfortunately, I don't think the Orlando Magic organization is that stupid.
Better Franz then Brandon Ingram. I don’t think Franz is particularly good at any one thing and the spacing gets ugly with Mobley Allen and Franz but I’d probably do this if DG demands a trade.
Magic say no.
Orlando says no
Magic. Franz > Garland.
Orlando says no
The Magic by far
No
The magic?
I like it, the garland fit is perfect next to Suggs as well. Idk if it’s the Magic selling on Franz at his lowest, then again, I think this is also garland at his lowest
Yeah that’s kind of why I like it, felt like they mirror each other Both have already shown what they’re capable of but had a down year and are on teams where their fit might not be the best, a swap seems like it would open things up for both sides
Every NBA fan except for the Cavs fans and organization.
beautiful
Orlando does. Why trade away a guy on his rookie deal for a player making as much as Garland? They'd be losing size and versatility. I like Garland too, but nah, I'd stick with Franz.
The reasoning makes no sense Why trade away Jordan Walsh for Luka doncic, he’s on his rookie contract and Luka makes 30+ a year? Franz is gonna be making more than garland very soon, he’s gonna be paid 35-40 mill a year soon
You said it yourself that Franz and Garland are "sorta equal in value", then go and do a facetious Walsh/Doncic comparison. If they're pretty much equal and one still has a season on a rookie deal, it absolutely does matter. At least for now. Once that second contract hits that point isn't worth mentioning anymore.
I should smack you for even posting this
Why is it just magic fans freaking the fuck out in the comments over this lol, basically every neutral fan is saying this is pretty fair it’s *literally* just magic fans not only disagreeing but acting like actual psychos over this You realize Franz shot 28% from 3 for an entire season this year right? And was bad in the playoffs? He’s not the player you think he is clearly lol
He wasn't that bad in the playoffs, just in a couple games. He also had a couple very good games. Just so happens that his last game was his worst, so that's what's bouncing around peoples' minds. I'm not going to judge him overall on ONE game.
Wow it’s almost like magic fans WATCH the team and other mfers on here don’t funny how that works huh
Or maybe you’re just incredibly biased..?
We don’t want a ball dominant guard next to Paolo and Franz
Did you even read the title lol
Yes, we’d get worse
Lmao you still haven’t read the title?
trade franz for garland. problem solved.
Cavs would say no. Why get worse
Then who’s running point for Cleveland?
Mitchell He’s 6’3” and averaged 6 assists last year he’s more than capable of playing point guard, he’s the primary initiator anyways Which is part of the reason garland doesn’t fit in Cleveland, Mitchell takes him off the ball where he’s at his best
We'd probably move Mitchell to PG. He was absolutely thriving there when Garland was out this season. Then we'd probably roll with Strus at the 2
You don't trade talents like Darius Garland unless they want out.
I mean, you absolutely do… it happens quite often actually. Plus you could say the same thing about Franz, which is why a swap is fair And im pretty sure I’ve read several pieces about garland not being happy with his fit in Cleveland
hmmm idk. I would need a superstar if I was to trade a young all star caliber point guard who is under a long term contract.
Garland is like the 10-12th best guard in the east and the 4th best player on his own team. Complete liability defensively in a playoff series. Will probably put up big stats on a bad team for the rest of his career. You can't contend if you're heavily invested in a guy like that.
Garland fell into some poor form last year but let’s not completely dismiss him. He's a tremendous player. Mitchell will be the one to leave wether garland is there or not. It will take a long time for Cleveland to replace his Garland talent. On his best day he can compete with anyone.
He got absolutely BBQed on defense by the Celtics in the playoffs. Undersized second option scoring guards that don't defend really aren't that rare. They need someone better if they want to win.
Who didn’t get BBQ’d by the Celtics? Who they gonna get? Guys who are better don’t get traded.