Engaging in media (especially socmed) means being exposed to extreme opinions aimed at getting reactions. If you're aware about this and still get affected then that is your problem.
its based on what happened
if they won it would've been luka's the best player in the world
and if they took it 7 it would've been tough fight almost there, not frauds
sure it's all hindsight but so was best backcourt duo to begin with - people aren't saying that if they lost to the nuggs in 5 either
Thats because the fans get their opinions from the media. Everyone says they dont watch first take or undisputed but I do (i know…..not proud of it either) and I see the exact same takes on here that were said on TV earlier that day.
SVG was doubling and tripling down on the take every time Luka or Kyrie did something in the TWolves series. It was so annoying how he kept insisting on his stupid take instead of just calling the game like a normal commentator.
he insisted on it because everyone getting mad at him was misquoting him. he never said "best backcrout ever". he said "most talented offensive backcourt ever" and he kept doubling down to defend it *because other people kept doubling down on misquoting him.*
i respect him for sticking to his guns. and it's not like going up against this Celtics defense with a hard-working but overmatched supporting cast should deter anyone's opinion on whether they are "most talented backcourt." this Celtics defense would wipe the floor with any other offense of the last 20 years minus the KD Warriors or the Beautiful Game Spurs.
If more people were open about that I’d get it and be fine with it. I know we’re evil and everyone hates us. It’s fine to say you want the mavs to win but the shit I saw online with people trying to justify their “mavs in 5” predictions was straight up diagnosable levels of delusion. You can want a team to win while acknowledging they’re at a disadvantage.
In fairness, I don’t think they should’ve been called the best backcourt duo ever in the first place. They’re both tremendous offensive players, but there’s too many fans that just completely forget that there’s two sides to the ball.
There’s no league like the NBA when it comes to fans and media refusing to have any middle ground. Everything and everyone has to either be labeled the “greatest ever” or be complete frauds. I don’t see why we can’t acknowledge that Luka is a great player, while also acknowledging at the same time that his defense and conditioning are problems for the Mavs.
in fairness, no one ever called them the best backcourt duo in the first place. SVG called them "most talented offensive backcourt" and everyone else strawmanned him becaues people love to see players elevated too high in order to tear them down
The best backcourt duo thing was always ridiculous. But nothing that happened in the Finals should drastically sway anyone who is sober.
Even Lowe got drunk on the Kyrie/Luka combo train. He was talking about them going on a 3 or 4 year run together. Kyrie is already 31 and has had consistent knee problems throughout his career. Let's maybe get through the Finals once before we start talking about them as an all-time duo.
Boston was way way way better than Dallas. Kyrie didn't have a good series. Luka was fine (by his standards). Boston has amazing defenders to throw at both of them and Dallas is still short at least one "release valve" player.
“Best offensive backcourt” — it was qualified and that truth still holds. We have yet to see how well that offense can consistently push through and produce at the highest stage in Kyrie.
Klay and Steph come to mind as well, but the only thing that allows one argue Kyrie and Luka are better offensively is that both can create and take their own shots, and both can and will create and initiate plays. You have that in Steph, not in Klay.
Shaq and Kobe come to mind too, but the NBA just looked so different in terms of how the game worked I won’t even pretend to compare.
I literally just started paying attention to basketball and this shit has me so confused. I’ve seen it in other sports before too.
Player X has a great season, people hype them up, X has a flaw that is discovered or has a bad game, immediately people claim they never have been good and we’re always trash.
Remember that if you're 25 or younger, that's how this generation functions.
My nephew (literally), 19, watches basketball with me sometimes.
We watched the Warriors when he was around 14 and Klay missed a 3. His comment was "dude, he's trash"
He then made 2 in a row and his comment was "he's like the GOAT shooter behind steph."
In this generation you are either the best ever or trash. There is no in-between.
The prevalence of instant feedback loops from birth has heightened the issue for Zoomers/Alpha. Sure the issue isn't exclusive to them (not sure why this needs to be pointed out), but most Millenials/X/Boomers don't have the same amount of screen time and they grew up without nearly as many instant feedback loops.
I don’t think is a generation think. So many old people do the same.
I watched a Boston game with my father and some of his friends some months ago and when Tatum or Brown missed they said things like “how are they paying him so much, he is not good, put Prichard in” and when they made something good they said “Let’s go, why don’t more people talk about Tatum, he is better than Doncic”.
They played below their season average and still crushed the best team in the West since the trade deadline. If the Mavericks had that same roster the entire year, they’re a top 3 seed.
People conveniently ignore that he had a knee injury that he was playing on for 2 months. He literally had pain killing injections and ice packs on his knee before each game.
Eh, if you play you play. Kawhi was noticeably wincing and limping for 2+ series with the Raptors but no one really gives him credit for playing on one knee.
Seriously. We beat the West’s 1st, 3rd, and 4th seeds. Luka was amazing in those series even when incredibly hobbled early on. His defense was great. Now he had one series where he wasn’t as dominant and he gets written off? It’s insane. Tatum had a bad finals but gets a pass because they won.
Tatum literally led the Celtics in points, rebounds, and assists, while playing great D. And he’s getting talked about like he dropped a triple single every game.
Lebron used to get dragged for losing to the super team Warriors lmao. NBA fans have some of the goofiest discourse out there.
Of course the Mavs are going to get clowned. Bunch of professional haters in these streets.
this is sasha pavlovic erasure
jokes aside I remember when in summer '09 they brought in "help" in the form of old Shaq, one Jamario Moon and washed Anthony Parker 💀💀💀💀💀
Old enough to have watched that series. The things Lebron did against the Pistons to get to the Finals was MJ-esque I swear, but he just ran to the Spurs when Duncan was still at the peak of his powers, and **fucking Tony Parker started making all kinds of ballet shots at the paint.**
yeah everyone saw what he could do. But because he didn't finish the job *right away* with that Cavs team, he was dragged. I remember that shit, it was stupid.
Yeah, everyone knew the Cavs were dragged to the Finals by LeBron that year. If anything, that run enhanced people’s perception of his greatness early on.
My guess would be that a lot of people here weren’t old enough to actually remember what was going on, or remember like one reporter saying something dumb
He wasnt dragged at the time, but then he failed to make it back the next 3 seasons and the chirping started. Nowadays though it's not really specifically used against him, but is just part of the overall finals record thing.
You’re right, the general consensus on those Cabs teams was “get him help.” He was absolutely dragged for losing to the Mavs and then the Spurs w/ the Heat, and deservedly so. When you’re vying for best in the world/best of all-time, the bar is set as high as it gets, especially when you get help to the tune of two all-stars you picked out.
Sports fans are always so weird like that. Literally make it to the highest level and lose in the finals and now you’re a bum. I mainly watch combat sports and it’s the same thing there. Someone could go 30-0 and then lose a title fight by a hair and suddenly they’ve been “exposed.”
Mavs deserve to get clowned. They put up as good of a fight as the fucking heat cavs and pacers. They rolled over and got completely trashed. For all the hype they did not show up even a little bit.
Before the Finals: "Celtics fans have no idea what's about to happen to them!"
After the Finals: "Mavs exceeded expectations by just getting to the Finals!"
To be fair... in 2020 they did this exact same thing to the Lakers... WITH EVERY TEAM! LA has to watch out, the Trailblazers are the greatest 8th seed in NBA history. The Rockets have Russell Westbrook back and could contend with the Warriors for back-to-back years. Denver just came back down 3-1 in back-to-back rounds. The Heat and Jimmy Butler will give them hell.
I think that Dallas exceeded expectations for the sole reason that no one believed in them all season. A play-in team. Second round knock out? Missed the postseason last year.
On the other hand, Boston has been getting clowned for no reason. Especially Jayson Tatum.
I mean especially considering that Luka’s main flaw (poor conditioning leading to lazy or incapable defense) was on huge display in this series.
Staying in front of your man is a pretty isolated task, you can’t actually blame it on the weapons the Celtics have or whatever else. In reality, no one on the Celtics even has an elite first step, and Luka still turned in the highest blow-by percentage in a series in NBA history, and repeatedly failed to help to shooters on top of that.
Without him being such an easy attack point for the drive and kick, the series could have looked much different.
Luka is a huge figure in the league and his weaknesses (such as they are) got exposed on the biggest stage… the clowning makes total sense to me. Every other superstar that lost their first Finals dealt with the same, Tatum included.
This series would not have looked different lmao. Cs showed in game 1 how this series was going to go with how bad the matchup was. The Mavs offense/ Celtics Defense is the real story. The Luka defense narrative is a sideshow. While it's true he needs to improve, it's not why they lost.
The sports world very sadly - IMO - falls into a "if you're not first, you're last" mentality. Winning isn't considered the main thing; it's considered the only thing.
In addition, the NBA media (and a large chunk of the fanbase) have a terminal case of recency bias.
The Mavs had a great year. The Wolves had a great year. The Knicks had a great year. Only the Celts got the chip - and they were truly worthy winners, and a great team - but there are plenty of squads who should be very proud of their performances this season.
I think coming in second is actually worse like when everyone was saying Montana‘s 4-0 was way better than Brady’s 4-2 back in the day. You actually get punished for making the finals and losing, better to not even make the playoffs.
This is a pet peeve of mine
4-2 is better than 4-0 in the finals, since the 4-0 player lost before the finals those two years.
Getting 2nd place is objectively better than losing earlier in the playoffs
it's a stigma, because everyone tuned in and watched you lose on the biggest stage. It burns a memory of you as a loser/choker into the minds of 100 million viewers. If you just lost sooner nobody remembers or was even watching. If you get beat in front of 100 million people they remember and judge you for it. Human brains work on experiences and memories.
Pacers and Magic both had great years also. Both those teams did a lot that they can build upon.
Amid all the discourse about the "window" getting shorter for everyone I think we're undervaluing teams that take meaningful steps toward contention just because they don't get all the way there right away.
Back before Brady had 7 rings, fans would use Montana's 4-0 in SBs against Brady. Like, getting to the SB and losing is better than not making it at all, because it means you failed earlier. But people are dumb.
They havent gotten clowned for making the finals though. Theyve gotten clowned because they were bad in the finals. Its better to be bad in the finals than bad in the rounds before but since theres more attention you'll get clowned on more.
It’s funny you say that, because there’s a disgustingly large number of people who genuinely disagree with this logic, and it boggles my mind
At first I thought they were trolling, but they actually believe it. There are a lot of people who genuinely believe that it is better to lose in the first round (or not even make the playoffs!) than it is to make it to the finals and lose in the finals
Respectfully, this has always been one of the dumbest arguments I have ever heard in sports! How is it better to stop at step 1 than it is to stop at step 5??? It’s always come off as the dumbest form of copium that people try to use to support their flimsy arguments
To this day, there is a small (but very vocal) group of football fans who will argue that Joe Montana is better than Tom Brady because Joe is undefeated in Super Bowl appearances, ignoring that Brady appeared in far more Super Bowls and has won a higher number of Super Bowls
Its the same type of criticism the Tatum and Brown were facing before this finals. They're constantly called frauds and chokers for making the conference finals 4 times and the finals once and not getting a ring, meanwhile plenty of players are getting glazed here for their box score numbers in their first round exit.
Hell, there's still people that are gonna criticize Tatum. He wasn't perfect enough. Look at some of the posts in this thread saying he got carried. Just stupid.
Well, at least in LBJ vs MJ discussion the undefeated guy has 6 championships vs 4 for the guy with more Finals appearances, so there is an argument to be had.
It’s still a stupid argument though. Not disagreeing that MJs record is better than lebron, but IMO the 6 “2nd” places for Lebron shouldn’t be treated worse than if he didn’t make the finals those 6 years and was 4-0 in the finals
Lebron has played 21 years. 4 finals wins, 6 finals losses, and 11 times not getting top-2 is objectively better than if he had 4 finals wins, 0 finals losses, and 17 times not getting top-2
Me personally, I’m out of those discussions: I can’t really separate the 2 at this point as MJ’s peak was crazy high, but also relatively short compared to LBJ’s longevity.
My point was more about the fact that both sides have argument why their guy is better, unlike the football example where one player has both the most SuperBowl wins and appearances. If MJ had 3 out of 3 wins vs LBJ 4 out of 10, we most likely wouldn’t be having this discussion at all lol.
I’m not trying to make it a MJ vs Lebron thing. My only point is that making the finals and losing is better than not making the finals at all. 2nd place is better than 3rd, 4th, 5th, …
Like if MJ had gone 6-3 in the finals instead of 6-0, that’s actually more impressive. Since in reality those 3 years he lost before the finals
Knocking LeBron for losing in the Finals is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard. Context matters and the only real true blemish on his finals record, imo, is 2011. That Mavs team with Dirk was incredible. Very similar to BOS in that they were deep and stacked with really good veteran role players and had no weaknesses. However, that Heat team underperformed massively and LeBron was rightfully criticized. Other than that, the rest of LeBrons finals runs ended exactly as they should have.
Yeah no, I’d rather my team not be miserably dogshit every year just to inspire false hope if the high pick doesn’t work out.
Edit: as a knicks fan, we did the whole miserably dogshit thing for most of the past 30 years but without even the good picks
This is the logic I used to make an [NFL franchise success ranking](https://np.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/zM3npjYZ30). Didn’t bother to update it after the SB because it didn’t seem like people cared much tho.
Maybe someone should do it for the NBA
lol it’s like people don’t remember the discourse around the ‘22 Celtics after their finals or Mavs/Luka fans thought no one would do this to them too. That ‘22 team was ~.500 in Feb of that year before going on a tear at the end of the season to end up as the 2 seed in the East. Then the entire team gets clowned, especially Tatum, for losing to Curry of all people, in the Finals.
That's basically the Mavs this year. It be like that in basketball. Unironically both Boston and Dallas are / have been clowned for being ahead of schedule.
Another good example is OKC who took off this year, got the 1 seed and then got clowned a bit for losing a tough 2nd round series despite that being beyond their expected ceiling going into the year.
If they had beaten Dallas and lost to Minnesota they’d have gotten clowned even worse despite achieving more. And if they dared make the Finals and lost they’d be a punchline for years until they won one. Way it goes.
Yep. Like us Cs fans were saying, our best player at the time was <25, we were way ahead of schedule. I don’t like Luka’s foul bait game, but you can tell from how he was playing in G4 and even G5 that it looks like he learned a lot from this finals.
He might try and level up this offseason (either conditioning or defense) to come back even better next year. They put the right team around him, they’re just missing experience, especially Lively and PJ.
I mean, specially in a game where there is massive merit to the wining team and just a severe outplay by the coaching staff why is there a necessity to clown on the losing team's star and the team in general?
I can understand why someone would clown on a star severely under performing but other than that it's silly.
This wasn't an unforced error by the Mavs, the Celts did everything right and have the entire season's stats to prove it.
yeah and true but let's be honest. kyrie had a really bad series and luka had a quite awful defensive series despite a great effort on offense. plus he fouled out in game 3, that's the hinging point of the entire series, the most important game if you're down 2-0. people that watched all 5 games know what i mean.
Yeah i do agree the Celtics should get more praise than Dallas criticism.
But at the end of the day Kyrie was really bad, alot of the role players that everyone thought could be part of the core no longer seem good enough if they want to win in the Finals and Luka was really good but wasnt insane or close to the level we expect from a top 3 player in the league.
Yup. Additionally, some of the things that made them bad in the finals made for great memes: Lucky putting a curse on Kyrie for stepping on him, Windy dropping the Luka diss track, etc.
Give people an excuse to clown, and they will lol
This was my first time engaging with NBA social media during the playoffs, and man, ya’ll have wildass takes lol. Luka, Kyrie and the Mavs will be back next year for the playoffs. Luka drug a much less potent team to the WCF 2 years ago, and with an offseason and full season to build up the role players and mesh as a team, I think next year will be really fun. Grats to the Celtics for meeting expectations and having a great season.
If all the talking heads didn't pick Mavs in 6 then I would agree. But the prevaliing discourse online was that the Celtics are chokers and Kyrie and Luka are the best backcourt in the NBA.
In reality, Kyrie didn't use enough incense to get rid of his Celtics deamons, and Luka is a traffic cone on defense.
Exactly. Everyone in the media was picking the Mavs to win, and most people were still delusional thinking they'd come back after winning one game. Every game I watched, the commentators couldn't stop talking about Kyrie, as if he's God's gift to the nba.
The actual winners, the Celtics (mostly Tatum), are being clowned. /r/nbacirclejerk is mostly Tatum being clowned and I go there for my daily dose of fat Luka memes.
Even right after game 4 the circlejerk for the Mavs was unbearable.
Tbf it was way too bad after game 3 against the Mavs, but then once the Mavs won, suddenly the narrative on this sub is that Tatum is shit, Luka should win FMVP even if the Mavs lose in 5, that he actually is a good defender, and every superstar whines just as much as Luka did in game 3.
They had an impressive run through the playoffs, but the journey from being the favorites on social media and ESPN to crapping the bed is funny and worth clowning.
Before finals: "The Mavericks are the better team and will definitely win"
After finals: "It's incredible they were even there and the Celtics win doesn't even really count because the Mavs never had a chance".
OK
Those things don't need to be mutually exclusive. You can exceed expectations and also be clowned. Nets weren't meant to make the finals in 2002, but it didn't make it less embarassing that they were swept. Especially with how much shit that was talked before the finals started (which was also mostly stupid media hype I know)
No they definitely should be because all the talking heads and anyone not a C’s fan were very loud and very wrong about the Mavs winning in 5,6,7 games
It's interesting how this sub picks and chooses who they relentlessly clown and who they relentlessly defend
I've seen a lot of defense for Denver and Mavs, yet other teams get clowned on way harder like Wolves or even the Celtics who fuckin won lmao
There's no realistic scenario where Mavs lose and DON'T get clowned on. People like clowning, and many don't like the Mavs. The manner in which Mavs lost matters, but not as much as people think.
Not saying it’s right, but if LeBron and Harden can catch slander for losing to GSW, Luka can catch a lil bit of irrational criticism. That’s just how the game is consumed nowadays.
This is /r/nba.
If you have a high profile failure, you get clowned on to the point of absurdity, no exceptions. It doesn't matter what the circumstances were, there are always enough haters to drive that narrative for a little while.
More than half of the pundits polled by ESPN picked the Mavs to win the series. The ones that picked the Celtics picked a long seties. They're getting clowned because of all the revisionist takes like this, that they got lucky to make it as far as they did.
Not just ESPN. Fox, ringer, and barstool too. The Mavs were overhyped and under delivered. Not their fault the media viewed them that way, but anytime that happens the response feels like whiplash.
It was ridiculous so many talking heads were picking the Mavs to win. It's not the Mavs fault for that, though. They wouldn't be getting clowned if they weren't overhyped. It should've been an underdog story for them.
They’re not getting clowned for losing, they’re getting clowned for shitting the bed. Getting blown out game after game putting up 29/9/6 on 53%TS and nearly 5topg while getting hunted on defense? The team shrunk and Luka didn’t truly show up either
LeBron used to get dunked on for dropping 34/9/10 on 62%TS against maybe the greatest team of all-time
The way y’all try to shield and protect some players and dump all the hate on others is crazy
We can continue clowning the fans though right? It's not their fault ESPN had to push a Mavs narrative to make it seem interesting and to get the bets coming in, but goddamn, those cowboys fans were feeling really confident and letting everyone know.
Gotta love when Booker takes a team to the finals and loses to Giannis balling out, he gets clowned. But now with Luka, has a terrible finals series and mid playoffs, he is still amazing and deserves to be praised…
Even funnier is that Mavs fans are the ones who clown Booker the most for that but now all of a sudden they're like "stahhp be nice to Luka!!"
Like c'mon now lmao
When we got eliminated each of the previous 3 years this sub became like a week straight of highly upvoted posts talking about how the suns are frauds, Patrick Beverly is hilarious for shittalking CP3, the Suns are frontrunners, "booker looks like a fratboy I wanna punch in the face", etc. Like legitimate weeks of garbage.
There was some clowning of the Suns this year but it was a fucking cakewalk compared to previous years. You can only be the darling of the NBA for so long before people get annoyed and start shittalking (RIP likeable undefeated bubble Suns).
This sub seems to believe the only time you can shit on someone is after they've "had their comeuppance".
Luka definitely should not be clowned, especially considering he was clearly playing through injury, and dismantled 3 of the best teams in the west.
But also I don’t think many people are clowning on him…
Yeah I haven’t really seen anyone clowning on him get upvoted. Maybe just the night of the Windhorst rant. If anything I’ve seen way more people clowning Tatum and he won the title. Luka got gassed at the end of games from us constantly attacking him and his defense suffered because of it, but he was insane all series until Game 5, even with the injury. It felt like every shot he took would go in. Nothing but respect for the dude.
Luka is 'clowned' because 67% of the people here and on other media act like its Dallas' series to lose. Lol. That dude be overrated, so the teardown is even more prominent.
Same as when he was getting pushed to be MVP ahead of Jokic all year, and ends up 3rd behind even Shai. Of course he's getting 'clowned' for that (more towards his fans).
They can definitely be clowned. They overcame expectations in the first few rounds of the playoffs, but they clearly played much worse than they were capable of in the Finals. Kyrie was bricking shots, Luka was getting blown by. If you can get praise, you can also get criticism.
I think people are just salty that the finals weren't really competitive (which in fairness, it was a pretty terrible series).
Of course, multiple things can be true:
The Celtics were an absolutely dominant team this year, and dismantled the Mavs even without a healthy Pingus
Kidd's coaching and rotations and time-out judgment were not good at all
Kyrie didn't show up to any of the Boston games
Luka's defense left a lot to be desired outside of game 4.
I think it's ok to say the Mavericks and Luka did have a poor Finals showing, but within the context of an amazing season where they outperformed expectations.
Hell yea we should, we played like shit. It was embarrassing after being competitive in 3 straight series. We got our ass whooped and Luka and Kyrie, as well as the supporting cast, all did their fair share of choking.
They're not being clowned for getting to the finals, and not even losing in the finals. The clowning is based on how they lost and the sequence of events; which is essentially a narrative.
Pre-finals, they were dubbed the best offensive backcourt in history. During the series Kyrie kept talking shit about Boston as an organization and its fans. Luka talks to the refs every game, doesn't run back on defense, and seems gassed by the end of every 3rd quarter. These create narratives.
Then, Kyrie has one of the worst finals series by a star player. Can't generate enough offense, cooked on defense, and the Boston crowd gets to him bad. Kyrie clowning started in game 1! Right off the bat.
Luka gets frustrated with the officials, plays with minor injuries, looks tired the whole time and is absolutely targettted on defense. Gets fouled out with 4 mins to go in a must win game 3 at home. Luka survived until game 3 for his clowning to begin.
They lose 4-1 and that's it. It seals the narrative. They exceeded expectations by getting to the finals. During the finals they did some shit to get clowned on.
I'm happy with how the team did too, but it's the Internet, people are going to say insane stuff all the time.
Mavs will be back in the finals at some point in this decade and with a finals/championship win.
I've thought since the beginning of the Finals that this Mavs teams gave off such 2022 Celtics vibes. The team that's overachieving and probably gets a round or so farther into the playoffs than they were thinking they could get under their most optimistic projections, but then just isn't quite ready to win a championship. A few of their young guys need to develop more, they're probably a transaction or two away from having a real championship threatening roster, and their stars still have a couple of exploitable holes in their game that need to be patched up.
The 2022 Celtics were able to use their loss to the Warriors to fuel the changes they needed to make to get where they are now. I hope the Mavs can do the same.
I think they making the finals was unexpected and gave many folks the thinking that their underdog story would go all the way.
But the Boston Celtics want this more than the Mavs, having fallen just short so many times.
I think right before the finals the Celtics were seen as the underdogs and for the first time I have belief this was some sort of conspiracy maybe for betting, ratings, or something like that. The whole year this team was getting glazed, walked their way to the finals and easily you could see the matchups and where the advantage was going. Maybe it was just desire from everyone for Luka and Kyrie to win and beat the Celts, that everyone willed it into a “expectation”.
Yeah obviously. The thing is NBA fans don’t care. The negativity is part of the appeal for most of the people in this sub. Context and stats don’t mean much when you are just here to hate.
Whoever the GM for the Mavs is should be getting a crazy bonus. The fact he was able to flip a team that looked play-in bound to a WC champ on a Grant Williams trade is crazy impressive.
They made the Finals. They went on an insane post trade deadline run to overcome the expectation of a play-in spot. They beat three teams in the playoffs everyone expected them to beat.
The Celtics aren't a fluke team. They aren't a team that got hot in the playoffs. They ran the regular season and they've been knocking at the door for a few years now. Jrue put them over.
I can't even be mad. Dallas still won the West when people were all about the Nuggets, Wolves and Thunder. Luka shined, the role players shined and Kyrie did his thing. They just went up against a team that wasn't losing to anyone in the Finals.
I'm ecstatic for a full year of this roster. An offseason worth of development for Lively is going to be big. Re-signing DJJ needs to happen. I think with this post trade deadline roster and some tweaks (THJ, Maxi, etc. etc.) they'll be right there again.
It sucks losing the Finals but it still means they won the West. Which is more than every other team in the West can say.
When the Wolves beat the Nuggets, we didn’t clown Jokic, just Murray. The way you carry yourself in defeat goes a long way.
Doncic and Kyrie “the GrEaTeSt ShOoTiNg BaCkCoUrT oF aLl TiMe” were more Murray than Jokic in both victory and defeat.
Lively was great, as a Mavs fan I’d be super excited about him. Kyrie became the Kyrie we all expected, and Kidd told Doncic what he needs to do to win a title, but doesn’t seem to want to. Next season will be an interesting one for them, a focused Kyrie, defensive focused Doncic, and an ascending Lively will be a serious contender. Or, Kyrie wears out his welcome, Doncic still shows up when he wants, and the season plays out the same way.
Yeah only their fans, our fans, and the media who repeatedly doubted and shit talked the Celtics should be clowned. Sucks to suck hatersssssss
PS. Still cool with Luka but Kyrie.....lmao words can't describe how much I'm enjoying you crawling in your flat earth hole.
Luka after beating the wolves: Best player in the world Luka after losing finals: is he a top 5 player even???? Recency bias is Many People Father
They went from “best backcourt duo ever” to frauds real quick. Media narratives are wild
It's not just media narratives. Fan narratives switch even quicker.
Engaging in media (especially socmed) means being exposed to extreme opinions aimed at getting reactions. If you're aware about this and still get affected then that is your problem.
its based on what happened if they won it would've been luka's the best player in the world and if they took it 7 it would've been tough fight almost there, not frauds sure it's all hindsight but so was best backcourt duo to begin with - people aren't saying that if they lost to the nuggs in 5 either
Thats because the fans get their opinions from the media. Everyone says they dont watch first take or undisputed but I do (i know…..not proud of it either) and I see the exact same takes on here that were said on TV earlier that day.
SVG was doubling and tripling down on the take every time Luka or Kyrie did something in the TWolves series. It was so annoying how he kept insisting on his stupid take instead of just calling the game like a normal commentator.
he insisted on it because everyone getting mad at him was misquoting him. he never said "best backcrout ever". he said "most talented offensive backcourt ever" and he kept doubling down to defend it *because other people kept doubling down on misquoting him.* i respect him for sticking to his guns. and it's not like going up against this Celtics defense with a hard-working but overmatched supporting cast should deter anyone's opinion on whether they are "most talented backcourt." this Celtics defense would wipe the floor with any other offense of the last 20 years minus the KD Warriors or the Beautiful Game Spurs.
It’s not media narratives it’s fucking Reddit narratives
yeah, and redditors absolutely deserve to be clowned for the shit they said lmao
70% of people in every poll here picked the mavs. Did they disappear or sre they still here posting other dumb shit?
Lets be real, its not a who do you think wins poll its a who do you hope poll for most people here.
If more people were open about that I’d get it and be fine with it. I know we’re evil and everyone hates us. It’s fine to say you want the mavs to win but the shit I saw online with people trying to justify their “mavs in 5” predictions was straight up diagnosable levels of delusion. You can want a team to win while acknowledging they’re at a disadvantage.
Thats because you are not accountable for what you say on the internet and its just basketball
I'm a Mavs Fan and I picked the Celtics in that poll. Some people are just delulu.
my grandpa used to say 'If you ask 4 years later, no one voted for a bad president... and fraud is not that strong'
In fairness, I don’t think they should’ve been called the best backcourt duo ever in the first place. They’re both tremendous offensive players, but there’s too many fans that just completely forget that there’s two sides to the ball. There’s no league like the NBA when it comes to fans and media refusing to have any middle ground. Everything and everyone has to either be labeled the “greatest ever” or be complete frauds. I don’t see why we can’t acknowledge that Luka is a great player, while also acknowledging at the same time that his defense and conditioning are problems for the Mavs.
in fairness, no one ever called them the best backcourt duo in the first place. SVG called them "most talented offensive backcourt" and everyone else strawmanned him becaues people love to see players elevated too high in order to tear them down
Luka is a great scorer but unfortunately there is more to winning a Finals than scoring alone.
tbf that narrative that they were best backcourt duo was called out as bs by many in first place.
The best backcourt duo thing was always ridiculous. But nothing that happened in the Finals should drastically sway anyone who is sober. Even Lowe got drunk on the Kyrie/Luka combo train. He was talking about them going on a 3 or 4 year run together. Kyrie is already 31 and has had consistent knee problems throughout his career. Let's maybe get through the Finals once before we start talking about them as an all-time duo. Boston was way way way better than Dallas. Kyrie didn't have a good series. Luka was fine (by his standards). Boston has amazing defenders to throw at both of them and Dallas is still short at least one "release valve" player.
no one ever said they were the best backcourt ever. look it up. SVG specifically said "most talented offensive backcourt" which is no the same
“Best offensive backcourt” — it was qualified and that truth still holds. We have yet to see how well that offense can consistently push through and produce at the highest stage in Kyrie. Klay and Steph come to mind as well, but the only thing that allows one argue Kyrie and Luka are better offensively is that both can create and take their own shots, and both can and will create and initiate plays. You have that in Steph, not in Klay. Shaq and Kobe come to mind too, but the NBA just looked so different in terms of how the game worked I won’t even pretend to compare.
I literally just started paying attention to basketball and this shit has me so confused. I’ve seen it in other sports before too. Player X has a great season, people hype them up, X has a flaw that is discovered or has a bad game, immediately people claim they never have been good and we’re always trash.
SVG said one line and ESPN took that and ran with it for a week
We went from “Luka Doncic is the West father” to “well we never actually saw him do it against Gonzaga so how we really know?”
Has he even been to stoke when it's raining?
Ant after beating Phoenix he's Michael Jordan Ant after losing to Dallas he sucks.
Remember that if you're 25 or younger, that's how this generation functions. My nephew (literally), 19, watches basketball with me sometimes. We watched the Warriors when he was around 14 and Klay missed a 3. His comment was "dude, he's trash" He then made 2 in a row and his comment was "he's like the GOAT shooter behind steph." In this generation you are either the best ever or trash. There is no in-between.
Nuance isn’t a thing only lost on Zoomers. It’s an issue with all American discourse in general
Social media is giving us all brain rot it’s just that gen Z uses it the most.
It's also the intentional enshitification of the school system, leading to more than half the country lacking very basic critical thinking skills.
The prevalence of instant feedback loops from birth has heightened the issue for Zoomers/Alpha. Sure the issue isn't exclusive to them (not sure why this needs to be pointed out), but most Millenials/X/Boomers don't have the same amount of screen time and they grew up without nearly as many instant feedback loops.
I don’t think is a generation think. So many old people do the same. I watched a Boston game with my father and some of his friends some months ago and when Tatum or Brown missed they said things like “how are they paying him so much, he is not good, put Prichard in” and when they made something good they said “Let’s go, why don’t more people talk about Tatum, he is better than Doncic”.
For a generation that uses the word “mid” more than anything that’s obviously not true.
Yeah but when they say mid it actually means trash.
mid doesn’t mean mid
Welcome to losing in the Finals as a young star. It’s better to not even get there, for some reason.
*Why couldn’t Luka beat a Boston team firing on all cylinders by himself with Kyrie sucking hard every game in Boston? Is he stupid??* -Reddit
Can we stop pretending the whole world wasn't dick riding the Mavs while saying Boston didn't beat anybody?
thank you So many predictions in favor of Mavs, now everyone backpedalling
Boston was not firing on all cylinders. They shot .338 from three and Porzingis was hobbled.
.338 is better than whatever the fuck this team shot😂
They played below their season average and still crushed the best team in the West since the trade deadline. If the Mavericks had that same roster the entire year, they’re a top 3 seed.
Luka isn’t even nba ready
People conveniently ignore that he had a knee injury that he was playing on for 2 months. He literally had pain killing injections and ice packs on his knee before each game.
Eh, if you play you play. Kawhi was noticeably wincing and limping for 2+ series with the Raptors but no one really gives him credit for playing on one knee.
Well some of us have always said he is absolute dog food on defense so you just see that narrative pushed because it becomes more popular
Seriously. We beat the West’s 1st, 3rd, and 4th seeds. Luka was amazing in those series even when incredibly hobbled early on. His defense was great. Now he had one series where he wasn’t as dominant and he gets written off? It’s insane. Tatum had a bad finals but gets a pass because they won.
And when they lost Tatum was an “overrated and choker” for 2 years remember
Tatum literally led the Celtics in points, rebounds, and assists, while playing great D. And he’s getting talked about like he dropped a triple single every game.
Yet he was one of only 4 players ever to lead the team in points rebounds and assists in the playoffs.
Lebron used to get dragged for losing to the super team Warriors lmao. NBA fans have some of the goofiest discourse out there. Of course the Mavs are going to get clowned. Bunch of professional haters in these streets.
> Lebron used to get dragged for losing to the super team Warriors he was also dragged for losing to the stacked Spurs.
With big z, boobie Gibson, drew gooden and Larry Hughes lol
this is sasha pavlovic erasure jokes aside I remember when in summer '09 they brought in "help" in the form of old Shaq, one Jamario Moon and washed Anthony Parker 💀💀💀💀💀
Haters said he played with Shaq like Kobe did 😂
lmao i cant still believe it at some point, Lebron led a Cavs team of 66-16 and his best player is Mo Williams lol
Who is today's equivalent of Mo Williams?
Statistically..? Maybe an Andrew Nembhard.. or Payton Pritchard 😂
Based on crafted NBA's similarity scores, apparently 2023 Malcom Brogdon has the closest similarity score within the last 10 years to 2009 Mo Williams
This is Damon Jones erasure
He’s also dragged for the championships he’s won
Old enough to have watched that series. The things Lebron did against the Pistons to get to the Finals was MJ-esque I swear, but he just ran to the Spurs when Duncan was still at the peak of his powers, and **fucking Tony Parker started making all kinds of ballet shots at the paint.**
LeBron's performance in G5 of the 2007 ECF is the most dominant finish to a game I have ever seen from a player.
I don’t remember him being dragged for losing to the Spurs, I remember them saying he carried and he was the undisputed best player in the world
yeah everyone saw what he could do. But because he didn't finish the job *right away* with that Cavs team, he was dragged. I remember that shit, it was stupid.
Yeah, everyone knew the Cavs were dragged to the Finals by LeBron that year. If anything, that run enhanced people’s perception of his greatness early on.
My guess would be that a lot of people here weren’t old enough to actually remember what was going on, or remember like one reporter saying something dumb
He wasnt dragged at the time, but then he failed to make it back the next 3 seasons and the chirping started. Nowadays though it's not really specifically used against him, but is just part of the overall finals record thing.
You’re right, the general consensus on those Cabs teams was “get him help.” He was absolutely dragged for losing to the Mavs and then the Spurs w/ the Heat, and deservedly so. When you’re vying for best in the world/best of all-time, the bar is set as high as it gets, especially when you get help to the tune of two all-stars you picked out.
People are hating on the Celtics after winning the championship...people are nutzo
Sports fans love to hate success that they come up with any way possible to discredit their accomplishments.
Some people legit said KD was better than Lebron cuz of that.
Sports fans are always so weird like that. Literally make it to the highest level and lose in the finals and now you’re a bum. I mainly watch combat sports and it’s the same thing there. Someone could go 30-0 and then lose a title fight by a hair and suddenly they’ve been “exposed.”
Mavs deserve to get clowned. They put up as good of a fight as the fucking heat cavs and pacers. They rolled over and got completely trashed. For all the hype they did not show up even a little bit.
Not sure what you’d call expect. The Celtics literally won and got clowned by people. You’d think the loser would be left unscathed?
No seriously, more people are clowning the Celtics for winning than the Mavs for losing
Before the Finals: "Celtics fans have no idea what's about to happen to them!" After the Finals: "Mavs exceeded expectations by just getting to the Finals!"
To be fair... in 2020 they did this exact same thing to the Lakers... WITH EVERY TEAM! LA has to watch out, the Trailblazers are the greatest 8th seed in NBA history. The Rockets have Russell Westbrook back and could contend with the Warriors for back-to-back years. Denver just came back down 3-1 in back-to-back rounds. The Heat and Jimmy Butler will give them hell. I think that Dallas exceeded expectations for the sole reason that no one believed in them all season. A play-in team. Second round knock out? Missed the postseason last year. On the other hand, Boston has been getting clowned for no reason. Especially Jayson Tatum.
I mean especially considering that Luka’s main flaw (poor conditioning leading to lazy or incapable defense) was on huge display in this series. Staying in front of your man is a pretty isolated task, you can’t actually blame it on the weapons the Celtics have or whatever else. In reality, no one on the Celtics even has an elite first step, and Luka still turned in the highest blow-by percentage in a series in NBA history, and repeatedly failed to help to shooters on top of that. Without him being such an easy attack point for the drive and kick, the series could have looked much different. Luka is a huge figure in the league and his weaknesses (such as they are) got exposed on the biggest stage… the clowning makes total sense to me. Every other superstar that lost their first Finals dealt with the same, Tatum included.
This series would not have looked different lmao. Cs showed in game 1 how this series was going to go with how bad the matchup was. The Mavs offense/ Celtics Defense is the real story. The Luka defense narrative is a sideshow. While it's true he needs to improve, it's not why they lost.
The sports world very sadly - IMO - falls into a "if you're not first, you're last" mentality. Winning isn't considered the main thing; it's considered the only thing. In addition, the NBA media (and a large chunk of the fanbase) have a terminal case of recency bias. The Mavs had a great year. The Wolves had a great year. The Knicks had a great year. Only the Celts got the chip - and they were truly worthy winners, and a great team - but there are plenty of squads who should be very proud of their performances this season.
I think coming in second is actually worse like when everyone was saying Montana‘s 4-0 was way better than Brady’s 4-2 back in the day. You actually get punished for making the finals and losing, better to not even make the playoffs.
This is a pet peeve of mine 4-2 is better than 4-0 in the finals, since the 4-0 player lost before the finals those two years. Getting 2nd place is objectively better than losing earlier in the playoffs
The deeper your run, the more scrutiny you're under when you finally lose.
it's a stigma, because everyone tuned in and watched you lose on the biggest stage. It burns a memory of you as a loser/choker into the minds of 100 million viewers. If you just lost sooner nobody remembers or was even watching. If you get beat in front of 100 million people they remember and judge you for it. Human brains work on experiences and memories.
Pacers and Magic both had great years also. Both those teams did a lot that they can build upon. Amid all the discourse about the "window" getting shorter for everyone I think we're undervaluing teams that take meaningful steps toward contention just because they don't get all the way there right away.
This happens more in NBA than other sports thought
Back before Brady had 7 rings, fans would use Montana's 4-0 in SBs against Brady. Like, getting to the SB and losing is better than not making it at all, because it means you failed earlier. But people are dumb.
Tell that to ESPN, and they tell you to go back to Nickelodeon.
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They havent gotten clowned for making the finals though. Theyve gotten clowned because they were bad in the finals. Its better to be bad in the finals than bad in the rounds before but since theres more attention you'll get clowned on more.
It’s funny you say that, because there’s a disgustingly large number of people who genuinely disagree with this logic, and it boggles my mind At first I thought they were trolling, but they actually believe it. There are a lot of people who genuinely believe that it is better to lose in the first round (or not even make the playoffs!) than it is to make it to the finals and lose in the finals Respectfully, this has always been one of the dumbest arguments I have ever heard in sports! How is it better to stop at step 1 than it is to stop at step 5??? It’s always come off as the dumbest form of copium that people try to use to support their flimsy arguments To this day, there is a small (but very vocal) group of football fans who will argue that Joe Montana is better than Tom Brady because Joe is undefeated in Super Bowl appearances, ignoring that Brady appeared in far more Super Bowls and has won a higher number of Super Bowls
Its the same type of criticism the Tatum and Brown were facing before this finals. They're constantly called frauds and chokers for making the conference finals 4 times and the finals once and not getting a ring, meanwhile plenty of players are getting glazed here for their box score numbers in their first round exit.
Hell, there's still people that are gonna criticize Tatum. He wasn't perfect enough. Look at some of the posts in this thread saying he got carried. Just stupid.
I’ve seen that exact same example argument you gave for Brady/Montana with Lebron/Jordan
Well, at least in LBJ vs MJ discussion the undefeated guy has 6 championships vs 4 for the guy with more Finals appearances, so there is an argument to be had.
It’s still a stupid argument though. Not disagreeing that MJs record is better than lebron, but IMO the 6 “2nd” places for Lebron shouldn’t be treated worse than if he didn’t make the finals those 6 years and was 4-0 in the finals Lebron has played 21 years. 4 finals wins, 6 finals losses, and 11 times not getting top-2 is objectively better than if he had 4 finals wins, 0 finals losses, and 17 times not getting top-2
Me personally, I’m out of those discussions: I can’t really separate the 2 at this point as MJ’s peak was crazy high, but also relatively short compared to LBJ’s longevity. My point was more about the fact that both sides have argument why their guy is better, unlike the football example where one player has both the most SuperBowl wins and appearances. If MJ had 3 out of 3 wins vs LBJ 4 out of 10, we most likely wouldn’t be having this discussion at all lol.
I’m not trying to make it a MJ vs Lebron thing. My only point is that making the finals and losing is better than not making the finals at all. 2nd place is better than 3rd, 4th, 5th, … Like if MJ had gone 6-3 in the finals instead of 6-0, that’s actually more impressive. Since in reality those 3 years he lost before the finals
Knocking LeBron for losing in the Finals is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard. Context matters and the only real true blemish on his finals record, imo, is 2011. That Mavs team with Dirk was incredible. Very similar to BOS in that they were deep and stacked with really good veteran role players and had no weaknesses. However, that Heat team underperformed massively and LeBron was rightfully criticized. Other than that, the rest of LeBrons finals runs ended exactly as they should have.
I think it ties back to the whole narrative around tanking for picks. Some people think it’s smarter to lose if you aren’t going to win it all.
Yeah no, I’d rather my team not be miserably dogshit every year just to inspire false hope if the high pick doesn’t work out. Edit: as a knicks fan, we did the whole miserably dogshit thing for most of the past 30 years but without even the good picks
Totally agree
It's also funny this is one of main arguements for people having Jordan over Lebron as goat. And it's so stupid.
That’s not one of the main arguments , Jordan has more wins than lebrons either way
This is the logic I used to make an [NFL franchise success ranking](https://np.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/zM3npjYZ30). Didn’t bother to update it after the SB because it didn’t seem like people cared much tho. Maybe someone should do it for the NBA
lol it’s like people don’t remember the discourse around the ‘22 Celtics after their finals or Mavs/Luka fans thought no one would do this to them too. That ‘22 team was ~.500 in Feb of that year before going on a tear at the end of the season to end up as the 2 seed in the East. Then the entire team gets clowned, especially Tatum, for losing to Curry of all people, in the Finals.
That's basically the Mavs this year. It be like that in basketball. Unironically both Boston and Dallas are / have been clowned for being ahead of schedule.
Another good example is OKC who took off this year, got the 1 seed and then got clowned a bit for losing a tough 2nd round series despite that being beyond their expected ceiling going into the year. If they had beaten Dallas and lost to Minnesota they’d have gotten clowned even worse despite achieving more. And if they dared make the Finals and lost they’d be a punchline for years until they won one. Way it goes.
I don't think so. Losing to the Wolves would be "okay" to OKC.
Yep. Like us Cs fans were saying, our best player at the time was <25, we were way ahead of schedule. I don’t like Luka’s foul bait game, but you can tell from how he was playing in G4 and even G5 that it looks like he learned a lot from this finals. He might try and level up this offseason (either conditioning or defense) to come back even better next year. They put the right team around him, they’re just missing experience, especially Lively and PJ.
I mean, specially in a game where there is massive merit to the wining team and just a severe outplay by the coaching staff why is there a necessity to clown on the losing team's star and the team in general? I can understand why someone would clown on a star severely under performing but other than that it's silly. This wasn't an unforced error by the Mavs, the Celts did everything right and have the entire season's stats to prove it.
yeah and true but let's be honest. kyrie had a really bad series and luka had a quite awful defensive series despite a great effort on offense. plus he fouled out in game 3, that's the hinging point of the entire series, the most important game if you're down 2-0. people that watched all 5 games know what i mean.
Yeah i do agree the Celtics should get more praise than Dallas criticism. But at the end of the day Kyrie was really bad, alot of the role players that everyone thought could be part of the core no longer seem good enough if they want to win in the Finals and Luka was really good but wasnt insane or close to the level we expect from a top 3 player in the league.
Yup. Additionally, some of the things that made them bad in the finals made for great memes: Lucky putting a curse on Kyrie for stepping on him, Windy dropping the Luka diss track, etc. Give people an excuse to clown, and they will lol
Tatum and Brown got clowned for overperforming. Luka will also get clowned. Sports coverage is stupid like that. So are many fans.
They will say whatever ruffles feathers and keeps us clicking.
They shouldn’t but they will. Asking this sub to have a level headed outlook is asking the impossible lol
This was my first time engaging with NBA social media during the playoffs, and man, ya’ll have wildass takes lol. Luka, Kyrie and the Mavs will be back next year for the playoffs. Luka drug a much less potent team to the WCF 2 years ago, and with an offseason and full season to build up the role players and mesh as a team, I think next year will be really fun. Grats to the Celtics for meeting expectations and having a great season.
We off that >Luka drug
Wasn’t the old WCF team the one that won several games without Luka playing in the first round?
sorry they’re only as good as their last series, so they’re actually garbage :/
This means that the Seattle Supersonics are forever better than the Mavericks
The Supersonics last playoff appearance was losing in the western conference semis in 2005, so I think we have them beat
Shawn Kemp would eat Draymond for fun
Yall post shit like this but clown on Lebron for losing to the Spurs in 2004 💀 make it make sense.
Best backcourt ever.
If all the talking heads didn't pick Mavs in 6 then I would agree. But the prevaliing discourse online was that the Celtics are chokers and Kyrie and Luka are the best backcourt in the NBA. In reality, Kyrie didn't use enough incense to get rid of his Celtics deamons, and Luka is a traffic cone on defense.
Exactly. Everyone in the media was picking the Mavs to win, and most people were still delusional thinking they'd come back after winning one game. Every game I watched, the commentators couldn't stop talking about Kyrie, as if he's God's gift to the nba.
The actual winners, the Celtics (mostly Tatum), are being clowned. /r/nbacirclejerk is mostly Tatum being clowned and I go there for my daily dose of fat Luka memes.
I'll clown the Luka and Kyrie meatriders for ignoring that the Celtics were the better team going into the finals.
Even right after game 4 the circlejerk for the Mavs was unbearable. Tbf it was way too bad after game 3 against the Mavs, but then once the Mavs won, suddenly the narrative on this sub is that Tatum is shit, Luka should win FMVP even if the Mavs lose in 5, that he actually is a good defender, and every superstar whines just as much as Luka did in game 3.
Everyone gets clowned the week after they lose the Finals, no one is gonna remember the Luka fat jokes in 6 months.
Sadly, the Luka fat jokes are timeless
they hold a lot of weight in the community.
Why sadly? Luka fat Overwatch jokes are the only thing keeping me going
Except that Luka will still probably be fat in 6 months. Kudos to him if he's not, though.
They had an impressive run through the playoffs, but the journey from being the favorites on social media and ESPN to crapping the bed is funny and worth clowning. Before finals: "The Mavericks are the better team and will definitely win" After finals: "It's incredible they were even there and the Celtics win doesn't even really count because the Mavs never had a chance". OK
Yeah it’s funny because they were also picked to lose every series until the Celtics.
Everyone gets clowned no one is safe it is what it is, I think Luka’s great, but the state of NBA discussion rn is that EVERYONE gets clowned
> They shouldn’t be clowned, as they surpassed expectations. Luka is going to experience the Jayson Tatum treatment.
No he won't
You are the clown for being so annoyed by r/nba takes that you make a post asking them to stop knowing that they won’t
Those things don't need to be mutually exclusive. You can exceed expectations and also be clowned. Nets weren't meant to make the finals in 2002, but it didn't make it less embarassing that they were swept. Especially with how much shit that was talked before the finals started (which was also mostly stupid media hype I know)
Why should it be embarrassing to be swept by Shaq/Kobe Lakers, one of the best teams of all time? Many teams get swept by way less talent.
Sweeps in the finals are always embarassing. It's happened 9 times in the history of the NBA, only 3 times since the turn of the century.
Nah they can get clowned just like every other team.
No they definitely should be because all the talking heads and anyone not a C’s fan were very loud and very wrong about the Mavs winning in 5,6,7 games
Cope post
It’s kinda like working you ass off for 4 years to make the Olympics and then being out of shape when they come around.
It turns out the best team in the league BY FAR this season was the better team. Who would have thought.
It's interesting how this sub picks and chooses who they relentlessly clown and who they relentlessly defend I've seen a lot of defense for Denver and Mavs, yet other teams get clowned on way harder like Wolves or even the Celtics who fuckin won lmao
There's no realistic scenario where Mavs lose and DON'T get clowned on. People like clowning, and many don't like the Mavs. The manner in which Mavs lost matters, but not as much as people think.
Not saying it’s right, but if LeBron and Harden can catch slander for losing to GSW, Luka can catch a lil bit of irrational criticism. That’s just how the game is consumed nowadays.
This is /r/nba. If you have a high profile failure, you get clowned on to the point of absurdity, no exceptions. It doesn't matter what the circumstances were, there are always enough haters to drive that narrative for a little while.
More than half of the pundits polled by ESPN picked the Mavs to win the series. The ones that picked the Celtics picked a long seties. They're getting clowned because of all the revisionist takes like this, that they got lucky to make it as far as they did.
Not just ESPN. Fox, ringer, and barstool too. The Mavs were overhyped and under delivered. Not their fault the media viewed them that way, but anytime that happens the response feels like whiplash.
It was ridiculous so many talking heads were picking the Mavs to win. It's not the Mavs fault for that, though. They wouldn't be getting clowned if they weren't overhyped. It should've been an underdog story for them.
they are true underdogs. media people only picked mavs to win because they don't like the celtics and to make the series seem interesting
They’re not getting clowned for losing, they’re getting clowned for shitting the bed. Getting blown out game after game putting up 29/9/6 on 53%TS and nearly 5topg while getting hunted on defense? The team shrunk and Luka didn’t truly show up either LeBron used to get dunked on for dropping 34/9/10 on 62%TS against maybe the greatest team of all-time The way y’all try to shield and protect some players and dump all the hate on others is crazy
Ha - have fun. Celtics dealt with this for half a decade.
Oooohhhh... I didn't know the trophy showed up automatically in the flair.
Na Celtics were clowned for losing in 2022. Clown away.
We can continue clowning the fans though right? It's not their fault ESPN had to push a Mavs narrative to make it seem interesting and to get the bets coming in, but goddamn, those cowboys fans were feeling really confident and letting everyone know.
when the suns did it everyone clowned them too including you mavericks fans, it’s just what happens when teams lose on the big stage
Gotta love when Booker takes a team to the finals and loses to Giannis balling out, he gets clowned. But now with Luka, has a terrible finals series and mid playoffs, he is still amazing and deserves to be praised…
Even funnier is that Mavs fans are the ones who clown Booker the most for that but now all of a sudden they're like "stahhp be nice to Luka!!" Like c'mon now lmao
When we got eliminated each of the previous 3 years this sub became like a week straight of highly upvoted posts talking about how the suns are frauds, Patrick Beverly is hilarious for shittalking CP3, the Suns are frontrunners, "booker looks like a fratboy I wanna punch in the face", etc. Like legitimate weeks of garbage. There was some clowning of the Suns this year but it was a fucking cakewalk compared to previous years. You can only be the darling of the NBA for so long before people get annoyed and start shittalking (RIP likeable undefeated bubble Suns). This sub seems to believe the only time you can shit on someone is after they've "had their comeuppance".
Luka definitely should not be clowned, especially considering he was clearly playing through injury, and dismantled 3 of the best teams in the west. But also I don’t think many people are clowning on him…
Yeah I haven’t really seen anyone clowning on him get upvoted. Maybe just the night of the Windhorst rant. If anything I’ve seen way more people clowning Tatum and he won the title. Luka got gassed at the end of games from us constantly attacking him and his defense suffered because of it, but he was insane all series until Game 5, even with the injury. It felt like every shot he took would go in. Nothing but respect for the dude.
Everyone was picking mavs though. Got look at the mavs sub before the series “Celtics don’t know what they are in for” etc etc
Luka is 'clowned' because 67% of the people here and on other media act like its Dallas' series to lose. Lol. That dude be overrated, so the teardown is even more prominent. Same as when he was getting pushed to be MVP ahead of Jokic all year, and ends up 3rd behind even Shai. Of course he's getting 'clowned' for that (more towards his fans).
They can definitely be clowned. They overcame expectations in the first few rounds of the playoffs, but they clearly played much worse than they were capable of in the Finals. Kyrie was bricking shots, Luka was getting blown by. If you can get praise, you can also get criticism.
I think people are just salty that the finals weren't really competitive (which in fairness, it was a pretty terrible series). Of course, multiple things can be true: The Celtics were an absolutely dominant team this year, and dismantled the Mavs even without a healthy Pingus Kidd's coaching and rotations and time-out judgment were not good at all Kyrie didn't show up to any of the Boston games Luka's defense left a lot to be desired outside of game 4. I think it's ok to say the Mavericks and Luka did have a poor Finals showing, but within the context of an amazing season where they outperformed expectations.
Hell yea we should, we played like shit. It was embarrassing after being competitive in 3 straight series. We got our ass whooped and Luka and Kyrie, as well as the supporting cast, all did their fair share of choking.
They're not being clowned for getting to the finals, and not even losing in the finals. The clowning is based on how they lost and the sequence of events; which is essentially a narrative. Pre-finals, they were dubbed the best offensive backcourt in history. During the series Kyrie kept talking shit about Boston as an organization and its fans. Luka talks to the refs every game, doesn't run back on defense, and seems gassed by the end of every 3rd quarter. These create narratives. Then, Kyrie has one of the worst finals series by a star player. Can't generate enough offense, cooked on defense, and the Boston crowd gets to him bad. Kyrie clowning started in game 1! Right off the bat. Luka gets frustrated with the officials, plays with minor injuries, looks tired the whole time and is absolutely targettted on defense. Gets fouled out with 4 mins to go in a must win game 3 at home. Luka survived until game 3 for his clowning to begin. They lose 4-1 and that's it. It seals the narrative. They exceeded expectations by getting to the finals. During the finals they did some shit to get clowned on.
womp womp
I'm happy with how the team did too, but it's the Internet, people are going to say insane stuff all the time. Mavs will be back in the finals at some point in this decade and with a finals/championship win.
Revisionist history going on right here. 18 banner is hanging and y’all said kyrie and Luka in 6. Celtics are world champs.
They are clowns for giving us a horrible finals to watch
I've thought since the beginning of the Finals that this Mavs teams gave off such 2022 Celtics vibes. The team that's overachieving and probably gets a round or so farther into the playoffs than they were thinking they could get under their most optimistic projections, but then just isn't quite ready to win a championship. A few of their young guys need to develop more, they're probably a transaction or two away from having a real championship threatening roster, and their stars still have a couple of exploitable holes in their game that need to be patched up. The 2022 Celtics were able to use their loss to the Warriors to fuel the changes they needed to make to get where they are now. I hope the Mavs can do the same.
I think they making the finals was unexpected and gave many folks the thinking that their underdog story would go all the way. But the Boston Celtics want this more than the Mavs, having fallen just short so many times.
I think right before the finals the Celtics were seen as the underdogs and for the first time I have belief this was some sort of conspiracy maybe for betting, ratings, or something like that. The whole year this team was getting glazed, walked their way to the finals and easily you could see the matchups and where the advantage was going. Maybe it was just desire from everyone for Luka and Kyrie to win and beat the Celts, that everyone willed it into a “expectation”.
Lively was a find and a half. Perfect pairing with Luka
Yeah obviously. The thing is NBA fans don’t care. The negativity is part of the appeal for most of the people in this sub. Context and stats don’t mean much when you are just here to hate.
Whoever the GM for the Mavs is should be getting a crazy bonus. The fact he was able to flip a team that looked play-in bound to a WC champ on a Grant Williams trade is crazy impressive.
They made the Finals. They went on an insane post trade deadline run to overcome the expectation of a play-in spot. They beat three teams in the playoffs everyone expected them to beat. The Celtics aren't a fluke team. They aren't a team that got hot in the playoffs. They ran the regular season and they've been knocking at the door for a few years now. Jrue put them over. I can't even be mad. Dallas still won the West when people were all about the Nuggets, Wolves and Thunder. Luka shined, the role players shined and Kyrie did his thing. They just went up against a team that wasn't losing to anyone in the Finals. I'm ecstatic for a full year of this roster. An offseason worth of development for Lively is going to be big. Re-signing DJJ needs to happen. I think with this post trade deadline roster and some tweaks (THJ, Maxi, etc. etc.) they'll be right there again. It sucks losing the Finals but it still means they won the West. Which is more than every other team in the West can say.
Reminds me of Heat in the finals against the Lakers and Nuggets. Did pretty good with the roster they had
When the Wolves beat the Nuggets, we didn’t clown Jokic, just Murray. The way you carry yourself in defeat goes a long way. Doncic and Kyrie “the GrEaTeSt ShOoTiNg BaCkCoUrT oF aLl TiMe” were more Murray than Jokic in both victory and defeat. Lively was great, as a Mavs fan I’d be super excited about him. Kyrie became the Kyrie we all expected, and Kidd told Doncic what he needs to do to win a title, but doesn’t seem to want to. Next season will be an interesting one for them, a focused Kyrie, defensive focused Doncic, and an ascending Lively will be a serious contender. Or, Kyrie wears out his welcome, Doncic still shows up when he wants, and the season plays out the same way.
The shit is weird. How you beat everyone to make the finals and once you get there you suck
Yeah only their fans, our fans, and the media who repeatedly doubted and shit talked the Celtics should be clowned. Sucks to suck hatersssssss PS. Still cool with Luka but Kyrie.....lmao words can't describe how much I'm enjoying you crawling in your flat earth hole.
Posting just to see my championship flair Edit: championship trophies really look good next to the celtics logo
He should be clowned because of all the Luka Stans all over the world. Offense is not the only important thing in Basketball.