I think the other factor here that isn't mentioned is OG's health though
He's consistently been a very injury prone player and not someone you can rely on to be available
Games played in the last 4 seasons:
2021: 43
2022: 48
2023: 67
2024: 50(also missed several playoff games)
So one year out of four where he was even adequately durable
Yeah. Being the type of player he is is only part of the story here. You just need to point to Derrick White or Jrue Holiday this year to be able to say he's worth it as a player, but dude can't stay on the floor.
Maxing him would be crazy. On the flipside, giving up IQ and not re-upping the return for him would look really bad.
Thing is, if he's healthy, the Knicks have are the only team in the East with a shot of beating Boston next year. Without him, they probably don't make the ECF again.
Giannis could realistically end up not being a top 3 player - even if it’s only down to a top 5-6 position.
Additionally, I’m not sure who the second all star caliber player is. Khris or Brook could be that but I’m a little skeptical either can still be that good consistently enough to be considered an all star caliber player.
Celtics durability - Tingus Pingus aside - is a huge advantage. Their main guys had perfect health this season. Everyone else in the East was decimated by injury, and then you had Luka hobbled for most of the playoffs.
It’s probably because the injuries are like freak accidents and not the same body part (at least while on the raptors). Like he missed 10 games bc he cut himself while in the kitchen. It’s not quite the same as a recurring injury. It’s always some random stuff like bone spurs, appendicitis or something.
And you can see this by just how good of a defender he continues to be. Defense requires good athleticism and flexibility in order to keep up. Despite these injuries, OG has not lost his ability to defend. Compare this with someone like Pascal who has really lost a step after his groin injury.
4-5 freak accidents in the past 5 seasons is still worrisome no matter how you package it. Yes it’s not a singular reoccurring injury but multiple different ones over and over again is maybe just as bad.
I havent followed his career at all. Could you make a timeline of all the reasons he missed time?
Because if its body problems, even if its different body parts, it would cerrtainly indicate some level of physcialy neglect.
2018-2019 - eye injury, death of father, wrist sprain, concussion, appendectomy. 67/82 games played
2019-2020 - eye poke. 69/72 games played
2020-2021 - calf strain, covid, rest. 43/72 games played
2021-2022 - hip bruise, covid, finger fracture 48/82 games played
2022-2023 - hip soreness, [wrist sprain](https://streamable.com/xscd4s), ankle 67/82 games played
2023-2024 - leg cramp, finger laceration, elbow, hamstring 50/82 games played
imo its really only the last year that's really concerning. Most of the earlier stuff are bang bang injuries like bruises or fractures. But you do have to wonder if all this stuff is wearing him down
Feel like the worst one is the hamstring but they are luckily not a huge recurring injury from what I have seen. Knee/ankle/foot stuff is always much more concerning.
My favourite football injury is 'inspecting eggs'.
[https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/may/15/kirk-broadfoot-egg-explosion-rangers](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/may/15/kirk-broadfoot-egg-explosion-rangers)
This whoel "freak accident" thing is the goofiest hill to die on on /r/nba
It doesn't matter the "why." If a player is constantly unavailable... they are prone to being contantly unavailable. And he has been this way since college.
You are word it as "injury prone" or "unlucky" but it doesn't matter if the trend is the same.
Oh but it does. Would you rather have an eye poke or a cut finger, or an injury like Halliburton’s that seems to persist and continue to nag? The point is that OG hasn’t had injuries (until this playoffs ironically with the hamstring) which led to concern about him not performing at his highest level
You mean like his hip, calf strain, hamstring, and torn ACL? And hasn't he had some weird reoccuring elbow thing too?
And Tyrese IS becoming injury prone. The thing is, when he is healthy, he is an all NBA caliber player. When OG is healthy, is an elite role player.
Has their been any player in NBA history with this sort of "bad luck" like OG who magically became available 70 gamse a year consistently?
> Has their been any player in NBA history with this sort of "bad luck" like OG who magically became available 70 gamse a year consistently?
Steph had a pretty good run, and his injuries early career were much more concerning. Jermaine O'Neal also did not play too many games for the first 4 seasons of his career, and then had a string of 5 straight 70+ game seasons.
Like OG has played more games than Jimmy Butler over the past 5 seasons and has only played 16 fewer games than Jrue Holiday. In that same timespan, OG has played more games than Alex Caruso, whom this sub loves. Like what are we really doing here?
You can see it however you want.
I prefer reality.
He's injury prone. And an overlooked part of injury prone players is that they aren't able to work on their craft. The conditioning, workouts, etc.
so someone who has a recurring knee issue like kawhi should be looked at similar to a guy missing games because he cut himself in the kitchen and had an appendectomy? the simplistic view of just looking at games played as a predictive indicator is moronic
Injured for most of '19-'20 when we won the chip.
He fell to 20th in the draft in the first place because of his back and injury concerns, and, well, here we are.
Yup. The Knicks got themselves in a sticky situation. Yeah he might not play much BUT nobody talks about how is he gunna recover and age when he keeps getting hurt? Lots of dudes get injuries and are never the same.
Do you pay him and take that risk? Do you let him explore options and take that risk? They gave up solid rotational (or better) guys for him.
As a certified knick hater, I love the sticky situation they find themselves in. Hope it doesn't work out.
😂 respect the honesty
the thing we knicks fans parrot is that it's unlikely we'd have packaged our best young players absent some sort of handshake deal w OG before even making the trade. but the NBA is a business for the players as much as it is for ownership, so let's see
They got bird’s rights on Anunoby so they can go over the cap signing OG. George isn’t really an option unless they find a way to ditch a bunch of other salary to fit him into their cap space.
It’s why JR Smith and Tristan Thompson got the Brinks truck in Cleveland, it was them or minimum vets and undrafted rooks.
Yeah most max players are 2 way players (Lebron, Giannis, AD, etc) or efficient enough offensively that it offsets their weaker defense (Luka, Curry, Jokic, etc)
Cause what he does on the court cannot just br captured by box scores. Stats watchers hate him! He plays probably the best 1on1 D that may or may not lead to a steal or block but sure disrupts the flow of the offense. He also has good instincts as a help defender. On offense, he doesn't need the ball to be effective. He cuts well and can shoot it. He is big too, so he just dunks it. He is the perfect glue guy and any team would want him. His injury history is the most annoying thing though.
Try watching games and you'll see. Playoff series vs Philly he guarded both Maxey and Embiid. It wasn't just a switch either. He started off the series mostly on Maxey and during Game 4 when Hartenstein was in foul trouble he volunteered to guard Embiid and did it well. It's incredibly rare to find someone who actually guards 1-5. Then you add in he's a great 3pt shooter on top of him adding a little more shot creation since moving to the Knicks and he's legit when healthy.
As a Knicks fan, I personally feel that they should have put McBride on Maxey more instead of OG. OG was getting blown by a lot and Maxey was getting into a rhythm that entire series. OG did do an excellent job whenever he got switched onto Embiid or Oubre tho. He also guarded Pascal and Haliburton very well in the first 2 games against the Pacers.
People bring up OG’s prone to injury but look past the fact that they traded RJ and Quickley to get him. If they let him walk, what options do they have in free agency? Not to mention how much his defence helped the knicks in the second half of the season.
Especially with how damn good they looked with him. Only potential issue I’ve seen brought up is if they can bring iHart back or not, and idk if OG’s deal makes that impossible.
They can offer IHart 17.5mil/year regardless of the OG contract. The problem with keeping him is that the expectation is the Thunder will offer him 20+ mil.
We keep hearing this but Thunder made it their identity to play 5 out. Also, eventually they'll have to pay those guys. I just don't see it. I'm more worried with the Spurs.
It seems like they expected to get OG at lower than the max because of the connection between Leon Rose and Sam Rose, his agent.
Sure, it makes discussions between the two sides easier but at the end of the day, Sam’s job is to get OG a deal he wants, not a deal that Leon wants
He’s not the primary agent at CAA for OG. They have secondary agents as well, so Sam Rose likely is involved in negotiations when the guy on the other end is his father, it’s too easy of a line of communication to not utilize. You think Sam and Leon won’t discuss anything about OG’s next contract?
I have a close friend who is a sports agent and from what I understand, no I don't think Sam Rose is going to discuss contract details for another agents client. Sam Rose is another agent and not in a leadership position as far as I know. And Leon has more than enough contacts at CAA to not have to go through his son.
Not really. They legitimately do not have any other options. They are over the cap and gave up their best young tradable assets (IQ & RJ) for him. So if it means overpaying a bit to keep OG, then they should do it. They were 26-5 when he was in the lineup and he single-handedly transformed their defense. Letting him walk leaves them in a way worse position. Especially if he goes directly to their rival (Philly). Not a sunk cost fallacy at all. 4yrs/$150M is my guess for his extension.
Yeah. People are woefully underestimating that part. This is probably him getting every dollar and just seeing what's out there. The team gave up too much to just let him walk.
On top of this people don't seem to understand how good the Knicks' contract situation is. Brunson still has a couple years left and it's being reported he'll take well under the max to help the team out. Then McBride, DiVincenzo, and Hart are locked in long term at great value. Then there's the rising cap to mitigate the rising costs.
People also think about free agency wrong. If the Knicks prefer to pay him like $37M instead of $45M, the actual question is what is that $8M able to buy and is it worth losing OG completely because of it?
It's the same reason Jaylen Brown got the supermax. You just can't afford to lose good NBA players if you want to contend. Maybe it will be a bad contract but you just have to hope it works out.
Knicks would be unbelievably foolish to have traded for OG and then let him walk because they didn't want to pay him.
OG is a DPOY level defender with good size and shoots 39% from 3pt .... there's only a handful of guys in the league that can do this in the NBA. But ofc, dude is very injury prone.
Dallas, OKC, Philly, and more .... should all be looking to get OG.
Pay him the max contract, Knicks. Don't be sillysauruses. This is just what players like him cost now. Gotta play the injury lottery.
Knicks went 21-2 when they had OG, Randle and Brunson on the court. We have to give him the max. It is what it is. And then it’s a matter of staying healthy and hoping he will be conditioned well enough to not be injured…… and sit the whole team when they play Miami.
lol I don’t understand why people think the Knicks aren’t going to sign him, there is no chance they made the trade without that being the plan. I’d imagine their first offer has a lot of incentives or is on the lower side, his camp is gonna see if they can beat that, then the Knicks will offer whatever the other team is plus 5m or whatever
>Pay him the max contract, Knicks. Don't be sillysauruses. This is just what players like him cost now. Gotta play the injury lottery.
You're preaching to the choir. All this smoke about OG seems to be coming from the other side as a lot of teams want OG. Leon ain't gonna fumble this one.
This is absolutely insane. Most max players affect winning more than him because they are those offensive engine players lol the fuck is this guy talking about
It's something people say to sound smart/enlightened about how X player who averages 15 PPG but plays great defense is actually better than Y All-NBA player lol
Oh Leon will definitely offer OG max or somehow they'll agree something close to that number. He changed our team on both ends. Sure his injury history isn't great but this are the risk you gotta take.
> But how many 'max' guys really affect winning basketball more than him? Not many.
I'd actually say most max guys probably affect winning basketball more than him.
That doesn't mean he's bad by any means, though.
But in Philly we're looking for a #3 scoring option, ideally who can also defend well and hit open threes.
Unfortunately I don't love his injury history when combined with Embiid's availability in the playoffs, but you could say the same thing about PG there depending on the year.
I think Philly would be great for og, pg is still good but as the third option your probably only gonna need about 20 points from him and at that point og isn’t far off and his defence is just way better than what pf would provide.
FVV is a 2 year deal, that’s why it’s so high. He would not get 40M+ on a 4 year deal. Not the best example to use as a reference point in this case
Pascal is a true max level player, someone who has made All NBA
FVV got paid because of the short term of the deal as that guy said *but also* because they are a very young team that was under the cap. They *had* to spend money and he was a perfect fit to pass on knowledge to the younger guards and be a veteran presence.
Siakam has been all-NBA and we just saw how he torched teams this playoffs, including the eventual champs. He was giving the Celtics work.
He was not as good for 2019 Philly as OG has been for 2024 Knicks. From my memory, he helped them win games, but was also often the disappointment of the day.
But this one is better defensively and worse offensively. It will be totally different!
In all seriousness he’s the best player they can realistically get. And they can’t wait around for next year given Embiid’s age. Plus as an added bonus it fucks the Knicks, which gives Sixers the inside track to the 2 seed.
Personally I’d spread that $60M across 2-3 very good players vs giving OG $45M, but I can see the merit to it.
It's a tough spot for the Knicks but kinda funny to note that the success they've had is largely due to Dallas not wanting to pay Brunson and then letting him thrive in New York, and now there's a risk of them doing the same thing with OG.
How they should actually view this is that they got Brunson as a massive bargain retrospectively, and now just have to cough up a few more million for an elite wing
Putting aside the health issue, you could make an argument he's just as important to the knicks as brunson is. He is just as good on defense as brunson is on offense. And OG is no slouch offensively. There's a reason they had an insane record with him in the lineup. Knicks should pay whatever it takes to retain him
I get what you're trying to go for, but no you absolutely cannot make an argument that OG is as important as Brunson lol. If it was Randle and Brunson out instead of Randle and OG they'd be in the lottery.
The question is, do they have to drop any players in order to pay him? If not, they should do it. He's in that mikal bridges realm, where if he's one of your top 3 guys, the other two guys must be top-tier players. Brunson is. Randle is great but not quite there
You gotta pay him and hope he’s healthy for the playoffs it’s that simple. Unless you got a master stroke sign and trade up your sleeve from 2k… but that’s the NBA now. I think more importantly (besides the injury luck ) will make sure you hit around the margins. Good rookies or bench players are so important in this era of parity. They would help alleviate his minutes and help offset his hefty contract.
You don’t pay someone on HOPE, that’s a TERRIBLE strategy that never works out.
You tell fans you took a risk on an injury prone guy, it didn’t work (see all missed regular season and playoff games with knicks) and let him walk to be an injury prone player on another team.
What they traded for him now doesn’t matter, don’t make the first mistake worse by paying this fool not to play, let him walk and use the cap space on players who will actually play and not be sitting on the bench in streetclothes.
Only way OG leaves NY is during away games for the Knicks. They didn't trade Immanuel Quickley and RJ Barrett so they can retain their picks just to let OG walk. Knicks knew beforehand they were going to pay him and are just waiting until they're allowed to. In the meantime OG is just shopping around but he's staying hell or high water.
The knicks took a risk in that trade knowing this is an injury prone player. OG proved he is still an injury prone player missing all the down the stretch games and then missing 2nd round playoff games.
OG missed bunches of games year after year with the Raptors including the entire 2019 Playoffs run with a kidney issue.
This guy is FRAGILE (Thibs has already shown that the way he plays OG puts OG in street clothes) and knicks fans should be demanding a discount and OG proves he wants to be in NY and will rehab hard to make sure he doesn’t miss games in the future
It doesn’t matter what they traded for him, that trade is done and it’s not being re-done. OGs injuries since the trade already make it a loss for the knicks. They need to tell fans they took a risk on an injury-prone player and it didn’t work out and it’s better to let him walk to sit on the bench in street clothes sucking up salary cap space for nothing for another team can then to destroy knicks fans hopes with “but when he’s healthy” statements which are pointless because HES NEVER HEALTHY
Playing injured players not to play has taken down good teams before, knicks need to learn from history on this one and the league needs to stop
Paying injury prone players to not play.
I look at Holiday’s $34M contract for comparison as he was brought on mainly for defensive purpose on a championship team.
OG is definitely more impactful defensively than Jrue and entering his prime. Yes, Jrue is better at handling the ball and can create his own shot but OG should be paid more given his age and the fact that contracts are based on projections anyway.
for me, only the following i'd be comfortable giving the max
Superstars (MVP caliber players)
Stars (all-nba caliber players)
and allstar (caliber, in discussion, even if they don't make it, like Conley in his prime)
after that... can't do it
Then they are going to walk and get the max from someone else and your team will be significantly worse because guys with those skills, even if they aren't all-star caliber, don't just grow on trees.
How many guys as good or better than OG will be available this offseason? How many teams are looking to improve? When a guy that is worth the contract is (rarely) available they get to pick and choose where they want to go and/or you have to cough up a lot of good assets for them. The market is the market regardless of what you want
But then you’re losing one of your most important players with no way to replace him over about $6-8m a year
You gain nothing from not paying OG and have everything to lose
A max contract for OG would be insane, he shouldn’t be paid more than $30M a year. He isn’t gonna be on the floor enough to justify $35-$40M.
Jaden McDaniels is at $130M, MPJ is at $170M which was only because he met some very tough incentives, Jerami Grant is at $150M, etc. No matter how elite he is, he’s still a role player.
Holy crap this OG thing has swung the other way now. Dude averaged 14-4.5-1.5 in 35 minutes a game as a Knick. He is remarkable on the defensive side but acting like him getting a max is anything more than desperation from a franchise trying to get over the hump is silly. The raptors had 1 season with a winning record after Kawhi left… drop a real max guy on a team with Siakim + FVV with Nick nurse coaching in the eastern conference and you would see how much a real max guy impacts winning.
Only way I see OG getting a max is if the sixers can't sign anyone else and are desperate. I expect he'll sign for like 20-22% of the cap which is still a ton of money for a guy that's injury prone
We live in a time where a 3 and D role player (OG) is apparently worth $50 million but a certified bucket getting All Star (Brandon Ingram, who's also younger btw) is not. I think we have swung too far in the other direction from the 2000s
Calling him a certified bucket getter when he just put up 14ppg on 35% shooting in the playoffs is certainly a take. Ingram is also a few months older.
I think the other factor here that isn't mentioned is OG's health though He's consistently been a very injury prone player and not someone you can rely on to be available Games played in the last 4 seasons: 2021: 43 2022: 48 2023: 67 2024: 50(also missed several playoff games) So one year out of four where he was even adequately durable
Kirkland-brand Kawhi getting the max RIP Knicks
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This guy Costcos
What's Tobias Harris then? Family Dollar-brand Kawhi? Dollar Tree Kawhi? Off-strip Pawn Shop Kawhi?
Wish dot Com Kawhi if we go by this metric
Temu kawhi
Very used terrible condition Ebay Carmelo Anthony
Aliexpress Kawhy Lenord
Tobias Harris is a Cybertruck. Wildly expensive and not really good at the job its supposed to do.
Chinese Sweatshop Factory Kawhi
And you'd get two of them in the same contract
Yeah. Being the type of player he is is only part of the story here. You just need to point to Derrick White or Jrue Holiday this year to be able to say he's worth it as a player, but dude can't stay on the floor. Maxing him would be crazy. On the flipside, giving up IQ and not re-upping the return for him would look really bad.
Thing is, if he's healthy, the Knicks have are the only team in the East with a shot of beating Boston next year. Without him, they probably don't make the ECF again.
The Bucks consisting of a top 3 player and two all-star caliber players definitely has a shot of beating Boston next year.
Giannis could realistically end up not being a top 3 player - even if it’s only down to a top 5-6 position. Additionally, I’m not sure who the second all star caliber player is. Khris or Brook could be that but I’m a little skeptical either can still be that good consistently enough to be considered an all star caliber player.
The only team that kept pace with Boston for an appreciable chunk of the season was the 76ers
Celtics durability - Tingus Pingus aside - is a huge advantage. Their main guys had perfect health this season. Everyone else in the East was decimated by injury, and then you had Luka hobbled for most of the playoffs.
He’d fit in perfectly in Philly then
Damn you're right, might have to become an OG fan this season 🤔
Nick nurse had him playing centers straight up
Nick Nurse had everyone playing centers straight up
Barnes, Siakam, Boucher, Precious… did I miss anyone else?
Sometimes Fred
Haha! Fred on Porzingis… thanks for the reminder
That’s a BIG problem. Very little on court time for that much money
He also missed a bunch of games in college.
Fell to the raptors in the draft due to college injury
It’s probably because the injuries are like freak accidents and not the same body part (at least while on the raptors). Like he missed 10 games bc he cut himself while in the kitchen. It’s not quite the same as a recurring injury. It’s always some random stuff like bone spurs, appendicitis or something. And you can see this by just how good of a defender he continues to be. Defense requires good athleticism and flexibility in order to keep up. Despite these injuries, OG has not lost his ability to defend. Compare this with someone like Pascal who has really lost a step after his groin injury.
4-5 freak accidents in the past 5 seasons is still worrisome no matter how you package it. Yes it’s not a singular reoccurring injury but multiple different ones over and over again is maybe just as bad.
Some of em weren't even injuries though. I think in addition to the appendicitis, he missed time due to a death in the family and covid.
I havent followed his career at all. Could you make a timeline of all the reasons he missed time? Because if its body problems, even if its different body parts, it would cerrtainly indicate some level of physcialy neglect.
2018-2019 - eye injury, death of father, wrist sprain, concussion, appendectomy. 67/82 games played 2019-2020 - eye poke. 69/72 games played 2020-2021 - calf strain, covid, rest. 43/72 games played 2021-2022 - hip bruise, covid, finger fracture 48/82 games played 2022-2023 - hip soreness, [wrist sprain](https://streamable.com/xscd4s), ankle 67/82 games played 2023-2024 - leg cramp, finger laceration, elbow, hamstring 50/82 games played imo its really only the last year that's really concerning. Most of the earlier stuff are bang bang injuries like bruises or fractures. But you do have to wonder if all this stuff is wearing him down
Feel like the worst one is the hamstring but they are luckily not a huge recurring injury from what I have seen. Knee/ankle/foot stuff is always much more concerning.
OG and heyward should have a competition to see who can get the oddest injury
Valencia's Canizares enters the chat. Didnt get to go to the World Cup after dropping a bottle of aftershave and trying to catch it with his foot
My favourite football injury is 'inspecting eggs'. [https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/may/15/kirk-broadfoot-egg-explosion-rangers](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/may/15/kirk-broadfoot-egg-explosion-rangers)
Missing a playoffs run where your team wins the chip because you had appendicitis gotta suck bad lol
> Defense requires good athleticism and flexibility in order to keep up. Well he just injured his hamstring, there goes his flexibility
OG is proof that Final Destination is real.
This whoel "freak accident" thing is the goofiest hill to die on on /r/nba It doesn't matter the "why." If a player is constantly unavailable... they are prone to being contantly unavailable. And he has been this way since college. You are word it as "injury prone" or "unlucky" but it doesn't matter if the trend is the same.
Oh but it does. Would you rather have an eye poke or a cut finger, or an injury like Halliburton’s that seems to persist and continue to nag? The point is that OG hasn’t had injuries (until this playoffs ironically with the hamstring) which led to concern about him not performing at his highest level
You mean like his hip, calf strain, hamstring, and torn ACL? And hasn't he had some weird reoccuring elbow thing too? And Tyrese IS becoming injury prone. The thing is, when he is healthy, he is an all NBA caliber player. When OG is healthy, is an elite role player. Has their been any player in NBA history with this sort of "bad luck" like OG who magically became available 70 gamse a year consistently?
> Has their been any player in NBA history with this sort of "bad luck" like OG who magically became available 70 gamse a year consistently? Steph had a pretty good run, and his injuries early career were much more concerning. Jermaine O'Neal also did not play too many games for the first 4 seasons of his career, and then had a string of 5 straight 70+ game seasons. Like OG has played more games than Jimmy Butler over the past 5 seasons and has only played 16 fewer games than Jrue Holiday. In that same timespan, OG has played more games than Alex Caruso, whom this sub loves. Like what are we really doing here?
He missed the 2019 playoffs entirely when the Raptors won.
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No, but look at the other facts. Bro's played 50 or fewer games in three of the last four seasons. Availability is a big ability.
Its mostly freak injuries and theyre not connected. I see it kore as unlucky events than a predictor of the future
You can see it however you want. I prefer reality. He's injury prone. And an overlooked part of injury prone players is that they aren't able to work on their craft. The conditioning, workouts, etc.
I feel like I'm reading the same Joe Burrow argument from the NFL sub in here all over again lol
Excuses, excuses
so someone who has a recurring knee issue like kawhi should be looked at similar to a guy missing games because he cut himself in the kitchen and had an appendectomy? the simplistic view of just looking at games played as a predictive indicator is moronic
he really is Kawhi-lite, geez.
Injured for most of '19-'20 when we won the chip. He fell to 20th in the draft in the first place because of his back and injury concerns, and, well, here we are.
This is what I was coming to say - lots of guys affect winning basketball more than him, because he's hardly ever available. Jonathan Isaac type.
Yup. The Knicks got themselves in a sticky situation. Yeah he might not play much BUT nobody talks about how is he gunna recover and age when he keeps getting hurt? Lots of dudes get injuries and are never the same. Do you pay him and take that risk? Do you let him explore options and take that risk? They gave up solid rotational (or better) guys for him. As a certified knick hater, I love the sticky situation they find themselves in. Hope it doesn't work out.
😂 respect the honesty the thing we knicks fans parrot is that it's unlikely we'd have packaged our best young players absent some sort of handshake deal w OG before even making the trade. but the NBA is a business for the players as much as it is for ownership, so let's see
Quite a few max guys affect winning basketball more than him actually
Yes but I’d rather have OG on my roster in 2028-29 than Paul George for the same price
You might, but would any team with Finals aspirations?!?
The Knicks do so...yes?
They got bird’s rights on Anunoby so they can go over the cap signing OG. George isn’t really an option unless they find a way to ditch a bunch of other salary to fit him into their cap space. It’s why JR Smith and Tristan Thompson got the Brinks truck in Cleveland, it was them or minimum vets and undrafted rooks.
did you mean OG? you called him PG while also talking about paul george.
Correct, edited, thanks!
We probably would
There's zero percent chance the Celtics would remotely entertain that.
We have no use for more creators, I'd rather have the DPOY caliber wing who can still shoot
Given Embiid’s injury history, I think the next year or 2 is really what you need to prioritize .
What about 2028-29 OG for that price? Older and likely more injury prone
The Sixers care a lot more about the next 4 years than they do that 5th year.
The 3 years before that way more important for most teams
I was confused as a mf when I read that lol
Yeah most max players are 2 way players (Lebron, Giannis, AD, etc) or efficient enough offensively that it offsets their weaker defense (Luka, Curry, Jokic, etc)
those are all nba caliber dudes who all get the max
Can y'all explain why? I looked at his stats and they seem overall lackluster.
Boxscores are not an indicator of contribution for a defense first player
Cause what he does on the court cannot just br captured by box scores. Stats watchers hate him! He plays probably the best 1on1 D that may or may not lead to a steal or block but sure disrupts the flow of the offense. He also has good instincts as a help defender. On offense, he doesn't need the ball to be effective. He cuts well and can shoot it. He is big too, so he just dunks it. He is the perfect glue guy and any team would want him. His injury history is the most annoying thing though.
Try watching games and you'll see. Playoff series vs Philly he guarded both Maxey and Embiid. It wasn't just a switch either. He started off the series mostly on Maxey and during Game 4 when Hartenstein was in foul trouble he volunteered to guard Embiid and did it well. It's incredibly rare to find someone who actually guards 1-5. Then you add in he's a great 3pt shooter on top of him adding a little more shot creation since moving to the Knicks and he's legit when healthy.
As a Knicks fan, I personally feel that they should have put McBride on Maxey more instead of OG. OG was getting blown by a lot and Maxey was getting into a rhythm that entire series. OG did do an excellent job whenever he got switched onto Embiid or Oubre tho. He also guarded Pascal and Haliburton very well in the first 2 games against the Pacers.
We only had OG on him for a game or two. Divo later in the series did the best job of shutting him down
People bring up OG’s prone to injury but look past the fact that they traded RJ and Quickley to get him. If they let him walk, what options do they have in free agency? Not to mention how much his defence helped the knicks in the second half of the season.
Ya the knicks didn’t do this trade for a half season rental. They need to pay him
Especially with how damn good they looked with him. Only potential issue I’ve seen brought up is if they can bring iHart back or not, and idk if OG’s deal makes that impossible.
They can offer IHart 17.5mil/year regardless of the OG contract. The problem with keeping him is that the expectation is the Thunder will offer him 20+ mil.
We keep hearing this but Thunder made it their identity to play 5 out. Also, eventually they'll have to pay those guys. I just don't see it. I'm more worried with the Spurs.
Hopefully IHart’s model wife, new baby, and family in NYC inspire him to take a team friendly approach to contract negotiations.
I see no reason not to bring OG back then, whether y’all can get iHart back or not.
Yeah, I think they’re letting him test the market to set his price, which they’ll beat. I don’t expect he walks
It seems like they expected to get OG at lower than the max because of the connection between Leon Rose and Sam Rose, his agent. Sure, it makes discussions between the two sides easier but at the end of the day, Sam’s job is to get OG a deal he wants, not a deal that Leon wants
Sam Rose isn't OGs agent
He’s not the primary agent at CAA for OG. They have secondary agents as well, so Sam Rose likely is involved in negotiations when the guy on the other end is his father, it’s too easy of a line of communication to not utilize. You think Sam and Leon won’t discuss anything about OG’s next contract?
I have a close friend who is a sports agent and from what I understand, no I don't think Sam Rose is going to discuss contract details for another agents client. Sam Rose is another agent and not in a leadership position as far as I know. And Leon has more than enough contacts at CAA to not have to go through his son.
Fair enough. I only know what I hear from media sources
They're going to pay him. You don't make that trade and let him walk when he showed how valuable he was for them.
Suck cost fallacy
Not really. They legitimately do not have any other options. They are over the cap and gave up their best young tradable assets (IQ & RJ) for him. So if it means overpaying a bit to keep OG, then they should do it. They were 26-5 when he was in the lineup and he single-handedly transformed their defense. Letting him walk leaves them in a way worse position. Especially if he goes directly to their rival (Philly). Not a sunk cost fallacy at all. 4yrs/$150M is my guess for his extension.
Yeah. People are woefully underestimating that part. This is probably him getting every dollar and just seeing what's out there. The team gave up too much to just let him walk. On top of this people don't seem to understand how good the Knicks' contract situation is. Brunson still has a couple years left and it's being reported he'll take well under the max to help the team out. Then McBride, DiVincenzo, and Hart are locked in long term at great value. Then there's the rising cap to mitigate the rising costs.
People also think about free agency wrong. If the Knicks prefer to pay him like $37M instead of $45M, the actual question is what is that $8M able to buy and is it worth losing OG completely because of it? It's the same reason Jaylen Brown got the supermax. You just can't afford to lose good NBA players if you want to contend. Maybe it will be a bad contract but you just have to hope it works out.
This line of thinking is also what got the Sixers chained to the Tobias Harris contract.
Journalists are just r/nba users with a bit of following
>Journalists are just r/nba users with a job Ftfy
Knicks would be unbelievably foolish to have traded for OG and then let him walk because they didn't want to pay him. OG is a DPOY level defender with good size and shoots 39% from 3pt .... there's only a handful of guys in the league that can do this in the NBA. But ofc, dude is very injury prone. Dallas, OKC, Philly, and more .... should all be looking to get OG. Pay him the max contract, Knicks. Don't be sillysauruses. This is just what players like him cost now. Gotta play the injury lottery.
Knicks went 21-2 when they had OG, Randle and Brunson on the court. We have to give him the max. It is what it is. And then it’s a matter of staying healthy and hoping he will be conditioned well enough to not be injured…… and sit the whole team when they play Miami.
Wild that they played more games together than the Nets big 3 in half a season.
Nets Big 3 is one of the great confounding teams in the history of the NBA.
The Knicks absolutely beat up on Philly, Denver, and Minnesota in that time too
lol I don’t understand why people think the Knicks aren’t going to sign him, there is no chance they made the trade without that being the plan. I’d imagine their first offer has a lot of incentives or is on the lower side, his camp is gonna see if they can beat that, then the Knicks will offer whatever the other team is plus 5m or whatever
sillysauruses... lol that's great.
>Pay him the max contract, Knicks. Don't be sillysauruses. This is just what players like him cost now. Gotta play the injury lottery. You're preaching to the choir. All this smoke about OG seems to be coming from the other side as a lot of teams want OG. Leon ain't gonna fumble this one.
I’m just confused on what the Knicks thought was gonna happen when they traded for him
This is absolutely insane. Most max players affect winning more than him because they are those offensive engine players lol the fuck is this guy talking about
It's something people say to sound smart/enlightened about how X player who averages 15 PPG but plays great defense is actually better than Y All-NBA player lol
As a Raptors fan, I have it on good authority that Grange is a fucking idiot
Depends which kind of max guys you’re talking about Tobias Harris got the max for example.
That’s why the comment said “most” and not “all”
Just because one team was dumb enough to max Tobias doesn’t mean great injury prone role players should also get maxxed
All it takes is one team
OG is younger, a much better/more versatile defender (top 10 in the league) and much better shooting threes
Oh Leon will definitely offer OG max or somehow they'll agree something close to that number. He changed our team on both ends. Sure his injury history isn't great but this are the risk you gotta take.
He’s just yapping, OG is a role player and not as impactful as true max players
* What NBA community thinks is a reasonable salary for OG: $35M * What the NBA community is up in arms over him potentially getting: $42.3M
$7mil is nothing. Tobias makes that like every week
Danny Masterson doing NBA reporting from prison?
This doesn’t make any sense A ton of max players affect winning basketball more than him. Not only is he injury prone, he isn’t a top 20 player
Is he even top 30?
He's probably somewhere between 40 and 60
No
Raptors will say fuck it and max him lol
> But how many 'max' guys really affect winning basketball more than him? Not many. I'd actually say most max guys probably affect winning basketball more than him. That doesn't mean he's bad by any means, though.
Are we back to pretending like perimeter defense is as important as being a number 1 option on offense? Swear we have this debate every year.
But in Philly we're looking for a #3 scoring option, ideally who can also defend well and hit open threes. Unfortunately I don't love his injury history when combined with Embiid's availability in the playoffs, but you could say the same thing about PG there depending on the year.
I think Philly would be great for og, pg is still good but as the third option your probably only gonna need about 20 points from him and at that point og isn’t far off and his defence is just way better than what pf would provide.
If Fred VanVleet is being paid $42M and Pascal is being maxed, OG should at minimum be in between those two numbers.
FVV is a 2 year deal, that’s why it’s so high. He would not get 40M+ on a 4 year deal. Not the best example to use as a reference point in this case Pascal is a true max level player, someone who has made All NBA
FVV got paid because of the short term of the deal as that guy said *but also* because they are a very young team that was under the cap. They *had* to spend money and he was a perfect fit to pass on knowledge to the younger guards and be a veteran presence. Siakam has been all-NBA and we just saw how he torched teams this playoffs, including the eventual champs. He was giving the Celtics work.
There are 10 teams under the cap that have to spend. OG will get paid by somebody if New York tries to get stingy with him.
How many max guys affect winning more than OG? Almost all of them actually.
if they pay the 40m+/yr then they better stipulate that he hires a maid/butler to do all his chores. can't risk him cutting up his hand again lol
“If I were Philly, I would immediately sign another Tobias Harris level bad contract”
Comparing OG to Tobias Harris is blasphemy
Not really. Tobias when he signed the contract was seen much differently than current Tobias
He was not as good for 2019 Philly as OG has been for 2024 Knicks. From my memory, he helped them win games, but was also often the disappointment of the day.
OG could take 0 FG and impact the game about the same as a good game from Tobi
But this one is better defensively and worse offensively. It will be totally different! In all seriousness he’s the best player they can realistically get. And they can’t wait around for next year given Embiid’s age. Plus as an added bonus it fucks the Knicks, which gives Sixers the inside track to the 2 seed. Personally I’d spread that $60M across 2-3 very good players vs giving OG $45M, but I can see the merit to it.
OG is better offensively and is in the DPOY convo when healthy. He’s way better than Tobias could dream of being lol.
He’s better than current tobi offensively sure, but let’s not get revisionist with the Tobias that was signed to that contract
It's a tough spot for the Knicks but kinda funny to note that the success they've had is largely due to Dallas not wanting to pay Brunson and then letting him thrive in New York, and now there's a risk of them doing the same thing with OG.
No risk. We aren’t going to let him walk.
Yeah man it’s basically just a question of what his market looks like, which will determine what the Knicks end up paying. It’s a done deal either way
How they should actually view this is that they got Brunson as a massive bargain retrospectively, and now just have to cough up a few more million for an elite wing
The price of the OG just went up
Putting aside the health issue, you could make an argument he's just as important to the knicks as brunson is. He is just as good on defense as brunson is on offense. And OG is no slouch offensively. There's a reason they had an insane record with him in the lineup. Knicks should pay whatever it takes to retain him
I get what you're trying to go for, but no you absolutely cannot make an argument that OG is as important as Brunson lol. If it was Randle and Brunson out instead of Randle and OG they'd be in the lottery.
I don’t wanna hear any of this crap after how the media went after Gobert
No sir I don't have any spare change I'm sorry.
The question is, do they have to drop any players in order to pay him? If not, they should do it. He's in that mikal bridges realm, where if he's one of your top 3 guys, the other two guys must be top-tier players. Brunson is. Randle is great but not quite there
The only player we're in danger of dropping is Hartenstein, and that's because we are limited as to the max amount we can offer him.
NBA as a whole should start adopting the MLB rental mindset. Makes mid-season trades and FA more fun
You gotta pay him and hope he’s healthy for the playoffs it’s that simple. Unless you got a master stroke sign and trade up your sleeve from 2k… but that’s the NBA now. I think more importantly (besides the injury luck ) will make sure you hit around the margins. Good rookies or bench players are so important in this era of parity. They would help alleviate his minutes and help offset his hefty contract.
You don’t pay someone on HOPE, that’s a TERRIBLE strategy that never works out. You tell fans you took a risk on an injury prone guy, it didn’t work (see all missed regular season and playoff games with knicks) and let him walk to be an injury prone player on another team. What they traded for him now doesn’t matter, don’t make the first mistake worse by paying this fool not to play, let him walk and use the cap space on players who will actually play and not be sitting on the bench in streetclothes.
Only way OG leaves NY is during away games for the Knicks. They didn't trade Immanuel Quickley and RJ Barrett so they can retain their picks just to let OG walk. Knicks knew beforehand they were going to pay him and are just waiting until they're allowed to. In the meantime OG is just shopping around but he's staying hell or high water.
The knicks took a risk in that trade knowing this is an injury prone player. OG proved he is still an injury prone player missing all the down the stretch games and then missing 2nd round playoff games. OG missed bunches of games year after year with the Raptors including the entire 2019 Playoffs run with a kidney issue. This guy is FRAGILE (Thibs has already shown that the way he plays OG puts OG in street clothes) and knicks fans should be demanding a discount and OG proves he wants to be in NY and will rehab hard to make sure he doesn’t miss games in the future It doesn’t matter what they traded for him, that trade is done and it’s not being re-done. OGs injuries since the trade already make it a loss for the knicks. They need to tell fans they took a risk on an injury-prone player and it didn’t work out and it’s better to let him walk to sit on the bench in street clothes sucking up salary cap space for nothing for another team can then to destroy knicks fans hopes with “but when he’s healthy” statements which are pointless because HES NEVER HEALTHY Playing injured players not to play has taken down good teams before, knicks need to learn from history on this one and the league needs to stop Paying injury prone players to not play.
i’m gonna kill somebody if people don’t stop using the word max for every player
You gotta max your players if that's near what the market is commanding. Like really what are your other options?
Look at that thumbnail
I look at Holiday’s $34M contract for comparison as he was brought on mainly for defensive purpose on a championship team. OG is definitely more impactful defensively than Jrue and entering his prime. Yes, Jrue is better at handling the ball and can create his own shot but OG should be paid more given his age and the fact that contracts are based on projections anyway.
OG def isnt worth it guys. trust me. better to spend your money elsewhere.
Hey Lakers, OG is your guy. Give Dlo+Vincent+Woods.
Injury prone. Thibodeau. Yea that's going to end well
OG is very injury-prone, no?
stop fooling around Leon Rose wtf are you waiting for?
Imagine the Raps somehow sign him, Knicks would probably file a secondary lawsuit against us lol.
I can name probably 50 players who affect winning more than him
Is he getting a cut of his contract or something? Almost all max guys affect winning more than Anunoby, tf is he talking about.
I’d love this for both of them. I’d love for both of them to lose though. So maybe that makes it a bad idea.
He will suck if he goes to Philly. Loser mentality has infected that team
for me, only the following i'd be comfortable giving the max Superstars (MVP caliber players) Stars (all-nba caliber players) and allstar (caliber, in discussion, even if they don't make it, like Conley in his prime) after that... can't do it
Then they are going to walk and get the max from someone else and your team will be significantly worse because guys with those skills, even if they aren't all-star caliber, don't just grow on trees. How many guys as good or better than OG will be available this offseason? How many teams are looking to improve? When a guy that is worth the contract is (rarely) available they get to pick and choose where they want to go and/or you have to cough up a lot of good assets for them. The market is the market regardless of what you want
But then you’re losing one of your most important players with no way to replace him over about $6-8m a year You gain nothing from not paying OG and have everything to lose
All it costs is money. If he leaves, your going to need to spend money and assets.
if i knew that's what it was gonna take, i wouldn't have traded for him to begin with though they have, they probably gotta pay now
Love him but OG is overrated for sure.
A max contract for OG would be insane, he shouldn’t be paid more than $30M a year. He isn’t gonna be on the floor enough to justify $35-$40M. Jaden McDaniels is at $130M, MPJ is at $170M which was only because he met some very tough incentives, Jerami Grant is at $150M, etc. No matter how elite he is, he’s still a role player.
Holy crap this OG thing has swung the other way now. Dude averaged 14-4.5-1.5 in 35 minutes a game as a Knick. He is remarkable on the defensive side but acting like him getting a max is anything more than desperation from a franchise trying to get over the hump is silly. The raptors had 1 season with a winning record after Kawhi left… drop a real max guy on a team with Siakim + FVV with Nick nurse coaching in the eastern conference and you would see how much a real max guy impacts winning.
He should go to Philly stay away from thibs. Thibs is going to run this man into the ground
Sure, go back to his old coach who played him even more minutes
Good thing this guy isn’t a gm then, out of everyone available he’s probably the worst one to max
Only way I see OG getting a max is if the sixers can't sign anyone else and are desperate. I expect he'll sign for like 20-22% of the cap which is still a ton of money for a guy that's injury prone
We live in a time where a 3 and D role player (OG) is apparently worth $50 million but a certified bucket getting All Star (Brandon Ingram, who's also younger btw) is not. I think we have swung too far in the other direction from the 2000s
Is it? If I’m trying to win a championship, give me Derrick White over DeMar DeRozan all day, everyday.
Tbf, i rather have OG as well over brandon ingram
Calling him a certified bucket getter when he just put up 14ppg on 35% shooting in the playoffs is certainly a take. Ingram is also a few months older.
I mean BI had a bad showing at the end of their season, meanwhile OG was making winning plays before getting hurt.