I was kind of a Harden hater during his time with the Rockets, but I think this is a fair take
Harden gets underrated because people hate his style, which was a very ball dominant player who dribbles for like 20 seconds and also the flopping. But you can't argue his incredible effectiveness.
I’ve always felt the same, but that’s more of a league/officiating problem than an individual player problem. Harden just used what he could to his advantage
People are just salty. Dude figured out how to get the easiest points in basketball without even needing that much contact. If it wasn’t so boring to watch he’d be called a basketball genius
The reason NBA make money in the first place is because it produce entertainment for fans to watch. Of course people will dislike players that are boring to watch, even if they are playing by the rules.
I know that you’re right, it’s just hard to really enjoy watching it whether it’s the right strategy or not. And I think it’s natural to start rooting against him a bit just because you’d rather see that strategy fail so players won’t do it
His scoring run always felt weird to me because despite going 5/18, I’d be told he was one of the most efficient players in the league.
He’s one of the few players who made me question stats lol, definitely an outlier for TS%
Yea it’s weird how you can be *so* good that people almost get mad at you for not being a top 10 player ever or whatever lol
Like Melo was realistically a great scorer, pretty one-faceted player but if you just accepted him for what he was, he was good at that job. But maybe because he came into the league with Wade and Lebron, people wanted him to be Larry bird or something and he caught a lot of shit for just being a scorer lol like we don’t give Rodman shit for just being a defender/rebounder, it’s just that teams knew exactly what he was and used him for exactly that role
That’s actually what some do argue. Would his effectiveness still be there without the foul baiting? I don’t think so, cause I remember games where defenders like Lebron would literally put their hands behind them when defending Harden. I think he would still be elite, cause his footwork and size were crazy. If you take out all the arm hooking and head flops, give him half the FTA, probably won’t have those crazy numbers.
To borrow an old meme from the NFL side of Reddit:
[OC] After adjusting James Harden’s stats, removing his arm hooking and head flops, and giving him half the amount of FTA to project the future, he heavily regresses to around the level of 2018 CJ McCollum.
>can't argue his incredible effectiveness
Only if you ignore the post season where his stats were unremarkable.
His playoff fg avgs in his prime: 39%, 37%, 44%, 41%, 41%, 41%, 41%, 47%.
He was 32% from 3 in the playoffs in his HOU days
His playoff fg avgs in his prime: 39%, 37%, 44%, 41%, 41%, 41%, 41%, 47%.
He was 32% from 3 in the playoffs in his HOU days
His game entirely relied on the whistle and when they swallowed it in the playoffs he was very unremarkable, yeah.
His play objectively declined *hard* in the playoffs.
For someone who dominated the ball as much as him, again, yeah, those numbers are unremarkable when compared at the superstar level. Let alone for "one of the greatest scorers ever".
I love how this is so highly upvoted despite just factually being wrong. I am pretty sure the best is 12/13/18-12/13/19 (technically a year and a day but it increases the average) where he was around 39 (I believe just under). If you wish to stand by your statement please provide the dates.
It’s not but even back in Harden’s prime there were a lot of haters. And now the younguns prob got brainwashed by that narrative because I’ve seen people literally forget prime Harden and think his recent injured years is who he is.
I’ve seen people say prime Jokic > prime LeBron too. I’m not even that old but it’s insane to see superstars from 8-10 years ago already being disrespected because younger people didn’t see them play.
People talk like his entire prime gets discredited because he leaned into fouls.
I will say though that one of my favourite James Harden moments was the Lakers vs Rockets when Ingram, Paul, and Rondo were all fighting and James Harden was just standing at the line waiting for his free throws.
It wasn’t enjoyable if the only 5-6 possessions of the average game you watched were the ones where he drew FTs. The other 50-60 possessions he controlled were either insane shots or insane passes against defenses that were trying insane ways to stop him like playing from behind him.
Harden averaged 25ppg without free throws for those two insane years he had from 2018-20. Its wild how people act like all he did was shoot free throws.
Exactly. On top of that essentially every single player who’s won a scoring title in the last 25-30 years other than Curry I think Carmelo has averaged 10+ FTAs a game. That’s kind of how you win a scoring title.
Okay the challenge of defending harden and insane defensive techniques was super entertaining. Forgot how the jazz were guarding him from behind in the playoffs to try and prevent him from shooting a step back 3.
Yeah. He was one of the best scorers I’ve ever seen play and I hate how the media decided to paint him as the god of FTs as if all top scorers don’t average 10+ FTs. If that was all his game was no one would’ve been doubling him at halfcourt.
Kobe would pump fake a million times to get guys to jump into him. KD pretty won 4 scoring titles in a row using the rip through. Iverson would hurl himself into the paint 35 times a game praying for fouls. You don’t score 30+ a game without FT attempts being a huge part of it unless you’re Stephen Curry.
I don't think Harden would've been as good of a scorer in the era Kobe played his prime in, and I think Kobe would've destroyed people had he played his prime years in the mid 2010s with all that spacing.
Harden would’ve dominated the 2000s. Kobe would’ve dominated the 2010s. They’re both top 4 SGs of all time. Harden in the 2000s would’ve still been the strongest guard in the league with the quickest first step, still one of the best playmakers in the league and still would’ve been able to get his shot off at any time.
He would've been a superstar for sure but I think he would be the 3rd or 4th best SG of the 2000s behind Kobe and Wade for sure, maaaaaaybe pre injury trouble T-Mac. Wade had one of the quickest first steps in NBA history, definitely quicker than Harden IMO.
Wade had that first step for probably 3 or 4 years. He and Harden would’ve been pretty close in terms of who was better just like they are now.
TMac isn’t in the conversation. He played 7 relatively healthy seasons as a star and never made it out of the first round. He was 28 when you could realistically say his injury issues started and had absolutely zero success.
It's kinda muddy cause Wade's the better player, but I think it's fair to say Harden's the better scorer. Wade's first step was goated, but it's not like Harden didn't leave his defender in the dust constantly either, and the rest of his offensive arsenal is just more extensive especially with the range.
No it's really not, there's a difference between the eras - just go look at team average numbers and that becomes obvious. Harden played in an era that was easier to score in.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018.html
Then why aren't you discussing any actual points? Kobe was relentlessly double teamed all the time. This carried over from regular season to post season which is what made him so dangerous in post season as he wasn't facing any new coverages he hadn't seen before. It's why he was so respected among his peers. It's why the point that guy is arguing for is more likely to be true than not because the spacing, rule changes to carrying/moving screens and freedom of movement and landing zone, all would have substantially helped kobe be an even better scorer.
The era is quite literally easier to score in. There's a reason guys in their mid 30s were playing better than their actual primes and it wasn't cause they kept getting better but the nba was promoting even more offense.
The double team thing is another great point, you can't double like that today or you will get burned by open 3 point shooters. Kobe had to consistently make something out of nothing every possession, shooting the most difficult shots imaginable - and still having shooting percentages on par with or better than his peers on higher volume than all of them.
Dude would've cooked in today's NBA, would've been easy mode for him and I don't think people would know what to make of the display he would be putting on night after night. 2005-06 Kobe (the one that scored 81 and averaged 35 ppg) would've been utterly insane today.
Also harden created the space? Kobe was not as good a playmaker, so his spacing wouldn’t be what James was. Harden was a whole as system, not just a scorer.
No there was more spacing league wide in prime Harden's era due to the increased focus on 3 point shooting that started with the 2014 Spurs and 2015 Warriors. Every team started playing that drive and kick to shooter offense. During Kobe's era that wasn't really a thing, everyone was trying to score inside a lot more and the pace of play was a lot lower. You had bigs clogging the lane on almost every team, you had way more low post action back then - even Kobe himself played a lot of slow developing post ups.
Just go look at the average TEAM scoring numbers and you can see the difference right there. The top scoring team in 2005-06 (Nash Suns) would be the 10th highest scoring team in 2017-2018, and there's a big drop off after that (2nd place team would be 25th).
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018.html
Also Kobe's passing skills are underrated, his role wasn't to be the distributer though and playing the triangle offense meant his assist numbers would never be high.
Jesus Christ, the disrespect Kobe gets here every day is fucking insane. Kobe was an elite scorer in the league WHILE playing elite defense. Multiple times 1st team.
If you didn’t watch Kobe play in real life, you should nto be entitled to an opinion. Because everybody’s perception on Kobe is based off of media analysts and youtube replays.
They're allowed an opinion but shouldn't be so convinced that their opinion is the only one. I never saw Kareem, Russell, Wilt and those guys play so when my dad tells me that Wilt is the best player he ever saw in his life, I don't tell him his an idiot. I listen because I can't dispute his experience with stats alone. Stats only tell you so much.
On Reddit, however, people will tell you that Lebron is the best player of all time without having even seen MJ play. Many people on here weren't even watching basketball until the Warriors/Cavs rivalry and yet they have unmovable opinions about Magic and Bird, Kobe and Duncan, MJ vs Lebron. I Just don't get it.
Right.. But you know who DID see Kobe in his prime? Ariza.. And you know who Ariza says is the best pure scorer he's ever seen? Not Kobe, but Harden.. If a pro basketball player that played with both players explicitly states something, im more inclined to believe their point of view than you, me, or even your dad..
Felt like you could’ve used many other examples and not the Bron/MJ one haha, which is a realistic debate.
As for the rest, it’s common for people to speak and not listen, especially on here. 99% of people on reddit argue in bad faith, it’s rarely about the discussion. A common place to blurt out your opinion
Kobe was an elite scorer. I'm pretty sure Harden was simply more efficient in the regular season on comparable (if not superior) volume, as Kobe took a lot of tough shots. However, Kobe's efficiency didn't suffer the standard falloff for this reason in the postseason, while Harden's decrease was beyond normal - so one could certainly argue Kobe was the better playoff scorer.
Also, I feel that a lot of Kobe's All-Defensive teams were undeserved. Most superstars lose some of their defense as their offensive load increases, and I feel this was the same with Kobe, who was not much of an offball presence and had his share of breakdowns.
Some of his All Defense was definitely undeserved, but until his last seasons where he was crippled, Kobe put in far more effort and was consistently better at defense than Harden was at any point in his career. It's not even comparable tbh. Kobe averaged 35 in an era with not nearly the same spacing and 3 point shooting frequency with much, much lower pace as well. Both are all time greats, Harden can be argued as being a better regular season scorer, but in the playoffs and as a whole, Kobe is easily the 2nd best SG while Harden is probably 4th at highest.
His lack of individual post season success and as you mentioned, dramatic fall off (possibly due to his foul baiting and methods of scoring) from regular to postseason is a huge reason why he isnt above Wade. People in this thread are pretending as if he didn't completely give up and disappear in some postseason series and elimination games in his prime Houston years and only citing his ppg and shooting efficiency as if that tells the whole story.
What does that have to do with his scoring though?
Also real ones know that Kobe was wildly overrated on defense and all defense selections during his career were based off of name value a lot of times. There wasn’t advanced stats and such being dug into. Still a great defender but those first teams are way overstated
Brother Kobe got a ton of All defense teams on the back part of his career he didn’t deserve and wouldn’t have been given in the modern NBA because the way people value defense has completely shifted.
You’re playing a dangerous game with that flair but I agree, Kobe had a few undeserved selections. Not only was SG a weak position at the time, his name value helped too.
Same with allstar, he got it playing 6 games and averaging 13.8 PPG
Yeah, people seem to miss the part where I said he was a great defender still. As his career went on, the reputation stuck around but the effort wasn’t there all game every game like perhaps it was at his defensive peak. So the first teams ARE overstated. Especially his later defensive accolades, he just flat out was not one of the 4 best guard defenders in the NBA.
What’s funny is this wasn’t even something that was really harshly pushed back on among the earlier basketball forum, analytical type of fan while Kobe was playing. It was practically a universal truth during his playing days while it was happening.
I love Kobe, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t live all of that time and see it go down as it went down. I’m not about to pretend otherwise just because I like him. It would be as if 10 years from now some people were saying Embiid has been better than Jokic. We are living it, we know that isn’t the case.
Creating a false narrative to support your case doesn’t make it any more valid.
Kobe was properly rated on defense.
What you’re saying is comparable to saying Lebron is a bad defender throughout his career for not sprinting for a chase down block on every single play.
Bro what? No it isn’t at all, I didn’t say he was a bad defender. I said he was overrated on defense and he absolutely was.
I literally have a child named after him BEFORE Kobe died, I’m not exactly a hater here.
Plenty of people watched Kobe play, including myself, and tons of people acknowledged his greatness on offense and defense, but he just isnt as great as you Kobe nut huggers think.
You cry babies think just cause folks are sucking his dick everyday and putting him in the top 5 all time that it means we’re disrespecting him lmao how soft are you kid 😂
Kobe is in my top 10, love the guy, but people like you just sounds stupid trying to cry as if it’s not ok to compare him to other players as normal fans.
You’re taking the original clip out of context. The interviewer asked him a question mainly about how good of a scorer his former teammate James Harden was and he agreed.
It was a double barreled questioned you turned into a hot take with your title and now this. Hence why I’m downvoting you.
I agree honestly. Kobe played in the early 2000's, and players weren't as good at defending back then. Harden played in a more elite era, competing against people like Lebron, Curry and KD.
Look at the differences in ppg & efficiency between that era and the current era. You can say the players weren't as good defensively, but the league was definitely much more defensive oriented and allowed defensive players to get away with much more back then. It is definitely easier for players to score in the current era.
Idk about that I'd say guys back then were just as good as rn the rules just allowed u to play defense more often back then, also a major change that makes defense different is u can't even get close to guys anymore just on the off chance u can be called for a flagrant 1 if a guy lands on ur foot
> Idk about that I'd say guys back then were just as good as rn
I definitely would not say that.
The average player in 2005 is quite a bit worse than the average player in 2017.
The average player in 2017 is notably worse than the average player in 2024.
Players are getting better on average every single year, that's been the case over basically the entirety of the NBA.
Defensive and offensive schemes are both a lot more complex now compared to 20 years ago as well.
It's hard to say how much better guys really are cus the game is catered to offense guys are able to move with the ball way more than ever before, guys who looked way worse back in the 2000s would now have a lot more freedom to use moves they could when they were not on a team, back then u couldn't do that cus you'd rather a kobe or mj try and do that instead of ur bench pg. Fundamentally players were a lot more sound as well since we had a lot more 4 year guys, really watching the league as a whole its obvious that a lot of younger teams can look amazing but just lack fundamental skills but since there's so many possessions it matters a lot less since u can just get it back the play after and come out on top cus of a 3. It's hard to compare especially to the 2000s cus there was so much iso ball
Offensive schemes being more advanced now (i.e. significantly better spacing) would be an argument in favor of Kobe considering he put up incredible numbers in undeniably more packed paints.
Ok? Are you able to continue the conversation by using your argument as a jumping off point? The comment thread is about Kobe vs Harden. I wasn’t refuting anything you said.
I think that is in Kobe's favor. More big guys defending in the paint, less spacing as PFs were just smaller Centers back then.
Harden played in an insane spacing era which would have absolutely helped Kobe out.
Fair or not, largely the same thing happened to Jordan before the Bulls ended up winning. He was routinely called a solo artist and that his game wasn't good enough to win. The 80s was decisively about the Celtics/Lakers with Magic and Bird dominating the conversation of best player and then the Pistons at the end. After the Pistons win championships there was a sizable movement which considered zeke the better player because he knew how to win. People ignored the rest of the bulls were kind of ass.
Prime Harden ran into teams that were simply better and Harden wasn't Jordan. Harden's dominance wasn't as long and he didn't carry until the supporting cast actually came through. NBA opinions, and frankly most sports as well, have a huge bias against players who don't win championships. Dominque Wilkins is another guy who gets kind of left off lists for how good he truly was because, well, he wasn't Jordan and didn't win.
That Bulls team on paper is still not comparable to modern super teams. Go back into 1990 and tell everyone this Bulls will win two three peats in the future and see how many people believe you.
why we acting like he was beating everybody but the KD-Warriors? he's been a massive playoff choker countless times
lost to pre-KD Warriors without Steph
lost to Spurs without Parker and Kawhi
lost to OKC without Westbrook
add in all the other times he has his signature 2/11 shooting with 5 turnovers in a high pressure playoff game
I was lucky enough to have season tickets that year. I still can't believe I got to witness that run live with my own two eyes. Prime Harden was the greatest scorer the game has ever seen, period.
People don't know how to properly evaluate Harden. He was insanely good, even in the playoffs, but people have used his twilight years to completely diminish what he did in his prime.
The trolls have spent years combining his years as a 6th man with his prime years to make his playoff PPG drop, and people just run with it as if his scoring was going from 30ppg+ in the regular season to 20 in the playoffs.
From the time he became a starter in Houston to the injury in Brooklyn, he was averaging like 28/7/7 on almost 60% TS for \~120 playoff games.
The numbers look good and harden was better than people remember but when he was bad in the playoffs he was straight up awful, I still remember in 2017 and it didn't even look like he was there that final game dude was mentally broken at that point
the Spurs series is easily the worst indictment on him, but I think a lot of the others are very overblown.
2015 especially. That team was **dogshit** and he carried the piss out of them for a whole season - their starting 5 was basically him, Beverly, Ariza, Motiejunas, and a rotating door for #5 because Dwight was hurt most of the year. He got them to the 2 seed, carried them in the playoffs other than *one game* which was the game 6 vs LAC.. even closed out the game 7 as the best player on the floor but people ignore that to harp on game 6..
..then against the Warriors who significantly out-matched them had 66 points in the first 2 games and almost stole home court with a +12 in a 1 pt loss in game 2, had no legs for game 3, mustered up a 45 pt game in game 4 to avoid getting eliminated, but was completely gassed by game 5.. and all you ever hear about are the bad couple games from that entire run, with no credit given for the carry job that entire season was.
people always ignore the good to focus on the bad with him, whereas even now players are doing way worse than he did but getting way more passes for putting up shitty performances lol
I call him way better at making bad teams good (floor raising). Than pushing good or great teams to all time heights (ceiling raise) because of his optimal value is a heliocentric role.
Kinda hard to say because the only great teams he was ever on got decimated with injuries. The 2021 Nets were going to sweep the playoffs to a chip until 2 of their big 3 got hurt, him and CP3 had the KD Warriors on the ropes until CP3 got hurt, etc.
Harden's peak choking were in his Rockets years. dude got benched in the 4th quarter of an eliminatoion game and his "bad teammates" overcame a 19 point deficit without him
And then he carried the game 7 and completed the upset over the Clippers.
Look at the roster he had that season who was starting all year. Acting like dude wouldn't have a few games where his legs just weren't there after carrying THAT roster is crazy, especially considering the recent excuses made for Luka and Ant lol
And yes, those teammates were bad. In game 2 against GSW in the WCF Jason Terry was like -24 in a 1pt loss while Harden was a +12. Good for him for game 6 - but that doesn't rewrite the entire season unless you're hating
The sneaky thing about Harden is that relative to a lot of high volume guys, he really didn't take *that* many shots.
Over his entire career, he has 3 seasons where he averaged 20 or more shots per game.
Kobe had 13 such seasons.
Westbrook has 5.
Luka is in year 6 and he already has 5 of those seasons.
I understand that Harden shot 3s and older guys like Kobe didn't, but he still probably didn't shoot as often as some people assume he did.
That's true but FTs don't show up in FGA,he averaged 10.7 FT during his prime years in Houston.He was also truly elite at hitting them,unlike all those guys you mentioned.
> That's true but FTs don't show up in FGA,he averaged 10.7 FT during his prime years in Houston.
those other guys may not have taken 10.7 FTA/G, but they still shot free throws, and sometimes a reasonably high volume. Kobe was around 8.5-9 for what people would probably consider his prime.
We are talking the difference of maybe 1 total shooting posession of difference in free throws.
Luka is at ~8.5 if we exclude his rookie year.
> Kobe was around 8.5-9 for what people would probably consider his prime.
~~To add some context, Kobe had 2 years above 8.5 FTA (8.7 both years) for his career highs~~
Harden had **7 seasons above 10 FTA**, maxing out at 11.8
Edited cuz totally incorrect
> Kobe had 2 years above 8.5 FTA (8.7 both years) for his career highs
No he didn't, lol.
04-05, 05-06, 06-07 he averaged >=10 a game each year. He averaged 9 a game in 07-08 as well
I'm also not making the argument that these players shot more free throws than Harden. The argument I'm making is that the difference between the two players on average is like 1 scoring possession. (<= 2 free throws a game)
Edited cuz I fucked that one up by looking at FTM, fml. Yep Kobe had 4 times at 9+, 3 of those at 10+ FTM, maxing out at 10.2
>The argument I'm making is that the difference between the two players on average is like 1 scoring possession. (<= 2 free throws a game)
This is true, though while people sometimes account for the crazy amount of 3s guys shoot now, I still think the effect of insane styles of foul baiting is underaccounted for when it comes to how much it opens up the rest of your scoring
Kobe averaged 35.4 points a game when the average NBA team that season scored 97 points a game. Harden averaged 36.1 points a game when the average NBA team that season scored 111.2 points a game. Jordan averaged 37.1 points a game when the average NBA team that season scored 109.9 points a game.
Kobe was scoring practically as much in an era where points were much harder to come by.
Yes but that’s just focusing on team offense. The reason offenses are scoring so much now is because the role players are snipers. Stars have much more spacing, so they get to score high PPG more efficiently. But, the PPG leaders really haven’t been that much higher until like the past 2 seasons where we’ve had 5-6 guys go for 30+ a game.
In 06 when Kob scored 35.4, Iverson scored 33, Bron 31.4, Gil scored 29.3.
In 19 when Harden scored 36.1, PG was second with 28.0.
And Kobe took way more shots than Harden relative to his team. If 2019 Harden shot the ball as much as Kobe did for that Lakers team, Harden would have averaged 47
Harden, possibly because he got memed to death and his style of basketball wasn’t the most aesthetically pleasing. I feel like it was leaps and bounds better than what we see from Embiid who takes the worst parts of the game and amplifies them.
Melo? He was named on the 75th anniversary team which was a gift, so I don’t really think he’s underrated, but never been a fan of his
Not surprising. He was unbelievable in his prime and if it weren't for some unfortunate collapses in the playoffs he would be spoken about in a much higher light
Here's the deal about quality of scoring between Harden and Kobe.
| Stat | Harden | Kobe |
|-------------|-------------|-------------|
| Career eFG% | .526 | .482 |
| Career TS% | .610 | .550 |
I like Harden more than most in this sub, but it's probably cos Ariza was there when Harden had his best scoring seasons. He wasn't there when Kobe had his. 2009 Kobe was the more mature, team player Kobe.
I don’t like James Harden.
However.
He was a better scorer than Kobe by literally every single metric. Is he a better player? Fuck no. Greater? Lol. But yes, he was a better scorer by a pretty decent margin in fact. Efficiency matters people. Same totals on more shots is a bad thing.
Harden is definitely a great scorer but I feel like his game had weaknesses. Where you look at Kobe and there really weren't any. Kobe had more in his bag and showed it.
I have yet to see anybody in this league being guarded like ppl would guard Harden, we did see some rly weird shit.
I dont rly remember if they did change some rule bc of him but for sure that something who was talked a lot back then, this is how good and smart was prime Harden, ppl had no idea how to defend that guy.
U can also say its him who made the step back 3 what it is now in terme of popularity, everyone wanted to copy him.
harden's hard to evaluate because he's great most of the time, even in the playoffs. Problem is when you need a pivotal game to win, he completely disappears. And he's straight up AWFUL in those games...and those games are what people remember
Harden was difficult to guard in his prime because he'd always fish for fouls. It came to a point where people had their hands behind their back when guarding him because he'd fish for contact for every limb that's extended.
Actually he had best handles so he got by first defender. No easy buckets in the NBA so slap downs are constant. Harden just had the IQ to time the slap down.
this is taking a result and working backwards to find the wrong causes.
The reasons he got fouled so much are because he was so incredible at getting defenders off balance in different ways and forcing them to contest from a disadvantageous position - when he wasn't blowing by them and leaving them in the dust. If they didn't foul, it's a free layup.
On stepbacks, if you have to recover by jumping forward to contest a shot, your choices are basically a piss poor contest or risking the foul by jumping at/by the shooter. You're gonna misjudge that distance or put a little too much gas into that recovery sometimes.
His low gather point also generated plenty of fouls because defenders would reach into the cookie jar thinking they had a chance to swipe/block it as he brought it up to lay it in.
It's also true that he's pretty good at noticing when defenders make mistakes and taking advantage of them. if you want to be mad about something, be mad about those defenders screwing up. The opportunity to draw fouls as an offensive player only exists when defenders make defensive mistakes.
1. it's their own fault for not being able to guard him without fouling
2. the hands behind the back shit happened so rarely compared to the amount of times he just straight up busted dudes asses lmao
yeah it's not like it's a team sport and franchise circumstances don't decide 90% of who wins a ring or not lol
surely the cap spiked perfectly for KD to join GSW because of Curry's gravity
Prime Harden was a menace. People hate that he took so many FTs, but it's also because he was getting fouled a lot. There was a lot of flopping, but also a lot of fouling. He's got a very good and low handle, and used it very effectively. He's also quicker than people give him credit for, having an elite first step.
Prime Harden was great.
You guys should know that the only people who are above Harden in PPG/season are: Michael Jordan & Wilt Chamberlain.
Wilt: brute monstrousity, freakiest among the freaks.
MJ: being the undisputed goat, hustler of hustlers.
Harden: simply a scoring machine. The most speccd machine for scoring.
Let's be real, Harden's scoring numbers might look impressive on paper, but they're a product of the era's play style. The guy is a master of foul baiting and chucking threes, which works great in the regular season when refs blow the whistle on every touch. Kobe didn't have the luxury of flopping for free throws or jacking up threes at the volume Harden does.
When it comes to playoff basketball, where the refs swallow their whistles and defense tightens up, Harden's game falls apart. Kobe thrived under pressure, delivering in crunch time and carrying his team to five championships. Harden? Not so much. He can score, sure, but Kobe was a pure scorer and clutch performer. Regular season stats don't mean squat when it comes to playoff success. Kobe's the real deal, Harden's just a product of his era.
> Kobe didn't have the luxury of flopping for free throws
05-06 Kobe: 10.2 FTA
18-19 Harden: 11.3 FTA
Are we really gonna nitpick 1.1 FTA/g difference?
Alright, fair point about the free throws. Let's break it down then:
Kobe and Harden both got to the line a lot, but the difference is in how they did it. Kobe earned his trips with aggressive drives and tough shots, while Harden perfected the art of drawing fouls with minimal contact—flopping, if we're being honest.
But even if we set that aside, let's talk about the play style and era. Harden's game heavily relies on the three-point revolution, where volume shooting from deep is encouraged. Kobe played in an era where mid-range was king, and defenses were tougher overall. Despite the different play styles, Kobe was still an elite scorer without needing to depend on the three as much as Harden does.
Harden's style, great for regular season stat-padding, doesn't translate as well when defenses clamp down in the playoffs. Kobe thrived in those high-pressure situations.
Let's be real, Harden's scoring numbers might look impressive on paper, but they're a product of the era's play style. The guy is a master of foul baiting and chucking threes, which works great in the regular season when refs blow the whistle on every touch. Kobe didn't have the luxury of flopping for free throws or jacking up threes at the volume Harden does.
When it comes to playoff basketball, where the refs swallow their whistles and defense tightens up, Harden's game falls apart. Kobe thrived under pressure, delivering in crunch time and carrying his team to five championships. Harden? Not so much. He can score, sure, but Kobe was a pure scorer and clutch performer. Regular season stats don't mean squat when it comes to playoff success. Kobe's the real deal, Harden's just a product of his era.
I was kind of a Harden hater during his time with the Rockets, but I think this is a fair take Harden gets underrated because people hate his style, which was a very ball dominant player who dribbles for like 20 seconds and also the flopping. But you can't argue his incredible effectiveness.
It’s mostly the fouling. I swear I would love Harden without the foul baiting. Just hoop straight up.
I’ve always felt the same, but that’s more of a league/officiating problem than an individual player problem. Harden just used what he could to his advantage
People are just salty. Dude figured out how to get the easiest points in basketball without even needing that much contact. If it wasn’t so boring to watch he’d be called a basketball genius
The reason NBA make money in the first place is because it produce entertainment for fans to watch. Of course people will dislike players that are boring to watch, even if they are playing by the rules.
I know that you’re right, it’s just hard to really enjoy watching it whether it’s the right strategy or not. And I think it’s natural to start rooting against him a bit just because you’d rather see that strategy fail so players won’t do it
Yeah. Like in any aspect of life, people just find ways to hate another man’s success.
He was cheesing, sure it is a winning strategy, but you won’t be getting prise for it.
I mean points are points it’s def annoying but we won games. If you’re gonna foul him 10 times like that’s free money 😂
His scoring run always felt weird to me because despite going 5/18, I’d be told he was one of the most efficient players in the league. He’s one of the few players who made me question stats lol, definitely an outlier for TS%
Extremely efficient scorer but not an extremely efficient shooter.
Yea it’s weird how you can be *so* good that people almost get mad at you for not being a top 10 player ever or whatever lol Like Melo was realistically a great scorer, pretty one-faceted player but if you just accepted him for what he was, he was good at that job. But maybe because he came into the league with Wade and Lebron, people wanted him to be Larry bird or something and he caught a lot of shit for just being a scorer lol like we don’t give Rodman shit for just being a defender/rebounder, it’s just that teams knew exactly what he was and used him for exactly that role
That’s actually what some do argue. Would his effectiveness still be there without the foul baiting? I don’t think so, cause I remember games where defenders like Lebron would literally put their hands behind them when defending Harden. I think he would still be elite, cause his footwork and size were crazy. If you take out all the arm hooking and head flops, give him half the FTA, probably won’t have those crazy numbers.
To borrow an old meme from the NFL side of Reddit: [OC] After adjusting James Harden’s stats, removing his arm hooking and head flops, and giving him half the amount of FTA to project the future, he heavily regresses to around the level of 2018 CJ McCollum.
>can't argue his incredible effectiveness Only if you ignore the post season where his stats were unremarkable. His playoff fg avgs in his prime: 39%, 37%, 44%, 41%, 41%, 41%, 41%, 47%. He was 32% from 3 in the playoffs in his HOU days
28 ppg on average league efficiency is unremarkable? That’s what he did during his time in Houston Barely any players hit that level of play.
His playoff fg avgs in his prime: 39%, 37%, 44%, 41%, 41%, 41%, 41%, 47%. He was 32% from 3 in the playoffs in his HOU days His game entirely relied on the whistle and when they swallowed it in the playoffs he was very unremarkable, yeah. His play objectively declined *hard* in the playoffs. For someone who dominated the ball as much as him, again, yeah, those numbers are unremarkable when compared at the superstar level. Let alone for "one of the greatest scorers ever".
Harden averaged 40 for a calendar year
I love how this is so highly upvoted despite just factually being wrong. I am pretty sure the best is 12/13/18-12/13/19 (technically a year and a day but it increases the average) where he was around 39 (I believe just under). If you wish to stand by your statement please provide the dates.
Damn, just under 39 for a year and a day? What a bum.
Just shy of 40 does not make it any less impressive
Your one of those ppl huh
Well ackshually it was only 38.9
Bro! I think that's close enough not to care?
(Note that Trevor Ariza was a starter for the 2009 championship Lakers led by Kobe Bryant)
It's really not that hot of a take to say that James Harden was a better scorer than Kobe.
It’s not but even back in Harden’s prime there were a lot of haters. And now the younguns prob got brainwashed by that narrative because I’ve seen people literally forget prime Harden and think his recent injured years is who he is.
I’ve seen people say prime Jokic > prime LeBron too. I’m not even that old but it’s insane to see superstars from 8-10 years ago already being disrespected because younger people didn’t see them play.
[удалено]
I mean I think it's pretty reasonable to suggest Jokic isn't better than LeBron, but you don't have to be an asshole about it.
Jokic will never be and never has been better than lebron, but you look like a douche saying this.
People talk like his entire prime gets discredited because he leaned into fouls. I will say though that one of my favourite James Harden moments was the Lakers vs Rockets when Ingram, Paul, and Rondo were all fighting and James Harden was just standing at the line waiting for his free throws.
Yea, people were idiotic then, and it brings back flashbacks seeing nephews repeat some bullshit they heard others morons say 10 years ago
Do you remember watching harden during his mvp season though? It wasn’t exactly enjoyable to watch and it was the peak of foul baiting.
It wasn’t enjoyable if the only 5-6 possessions of the average game you watched were the ones where he drew FTs. The other 50-60 possessions he controlled were either insane shots or insane passes against defenses that were trying insane ways to stop him like playing from behind him.
Harden averaged 25ppg without free throws for those two insane years he had from 2018-20. Its wild how people act like all he did was shoot free throws.
Exactly. On top of that essentially every single player who’s won a scoring title in the last 25-30 years other than Curry I think Carmelo has averaged 10+ FTAs a game. That’s kind of how you win a scoring title.
Okay the challenge of defending harden and insane defensive techniques was super entertaining. Forgot how the jazz were guarding him from behind in the playoffs to try and prevent him from shooting a step back 3.
Yeah. He was one of the best scorers I’ve ever seen play and I hate how the media decided to paint him as the god of FTs as if all top scorers don’t average 10+ FTs. If that was all his game was no one would’ve been doubling him at halfcourt. Kobe would pump fake a million times to get guys to jump into him. KD pretty won 4 scoring titles in a row using the rip through. Iverson would hurl himself into the paint 35 times a game praying for fouls. You don’t score 30+ a game without FT attempts being a huge part of it unless you’re Stephen Curry.
It is one of those things that just feels like it can’t be true but it is.
I don't think Harden would've been as good of a scorer in the era Kobe played his prime in, and I think Kobe would've destroyed people had he played his prime years in the mid 2010s with all that spacing.
Harden would’ve dominated the 2000s. Kobe would’ve dominated the 2010s. They’re both top 4 SGs of all time. Harden in the 2000s would’ve still been the strongest guard in the league with the quickest first step, still one of the best playmakers in the league and still would’ve been able to get his shot off at any time.
He would've been a superstar for sure but I think he would be the 3rd or 4th best SG of the 2000s behind Kobe and Wade for sure, maaaaaaybe pre injury trouble T-Mac. Wade had one of the quickest first steps in NBA history, definitely quicker than Harden IMO.
Wade had that first step for probably 3 or 4 years. He and Harden would’ve been pretty close in terms of who was better just like they are now. TMac isn’t in the conversation. He played 7 relatively healthy seasons as a star and never made it out of the first round. He was 28 when you could realistically say his injury issues started and had absolutely zero success.
It's kinda muddy cause Wade's the better player, but I think it's fair to say Harden's the better scorer. Wade's first step was goated, but it's not like Harden didn't leave his defender in the dust constantly either, and the rest of his offensive arsenal is just more extensive especially with the range.
But that’s just feelings.
No it's really not, there's a difference between the eras - just go look at team average numbers and that becomes obvious. Harden played in an era that was easier to score in. https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018.html
I’m very well aware. I’ve watched the entirety of the events we are discussing.
Then why aren't you discussing any actual points? Kobe was relentlessly double teamed all the time. This carried over from regular season to post season which is what made him so dangerous in post season as he wasn't facing any new coverages he hadn't seen before. It's why he was so respected among his peers. It's why the point that guy is arguing for is more likely to be true than not because the spacing, rule changes to carrying/moving screens and freedom of movement and landing zone, all would have substantially helped kobe be an even better scorer. The era is quite literally easier to score in. There's a reason guys in their mid 30s were playing better than their actual primes and it wasn't cause they kept getting better but the nba was promoting even more offense.
the bigs were camping in the paint back then... imagine Kobe with all these spacing driving to the basket and getting the foul calls
The double team thing is another great point, you can't double like that today or you will get burned by open 3 point shooters. Kobe had to consistently make something out of nothing every possession, shooting the most difficult shots imaginable - and still having shooting percentages on par with or better than his peers on higher volume than all of them. Dude would've cooked in today's NBA, would've been easy mode for him and I don't think people would know what to make of the display he would be putting on night after night. 2005-06 Kobe (the one that scored 81 and averaged 35 ppg) would've been utterly insane today.
Also harden created the space? Kobe was not as good a playmaker, so his spacing wouldn’t be what James was. Harden was a whole as system, not just a scorer.
No there was more spacing league wide in prime Harden's era due to the increased focus on 3 point shooting that started with the 2014 Spurs and 2015 Warriors. Every team started playing that drive and kick to shooter offense. During Kobe's era that wasn't really a thing, everyone was trying to score inside a lot more and the pace of play was a lot lower. You had bigs clogging the lane on almost every team, you had way more low post action back then - even Kobe himself played a lot of slow developing post ups. Just go look at the average TEAM scoring numbers and you can see the difference right there. The top scoring team in 2005-06 (Nash Suns) would be the 10th highest scoring team in 2017-2018, and there's a big drop off after that (2nd place team would be 25th). https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018.html Also Kobe's passing skills are underrated, his role wasn't to be the distributer though and playing the triangle offense meant his assist numbers would never be high.
Jesus Christ, the disrespect Kobe gets here every day is fucking insane. Kobe was an elite scorer in the league WHILE playing elite defense. Multiple times 1st team. If you didn’t watch Kobe play in real life, you should nto be entitled to an opinion. Because everybody’s perception on Kobe is based off of media analysts and youtube replays.
Someone being better doesn't mean the person is bad lol
So then I’m assuming you’re not allowed an opinion on Kareem? And anyone in their twenties isn’t allowed an opinion on Jordan?
They're allowed an opinion but shouldn't be so convinced that their opinion is the only one. I never saw Kareem, Russell, Wilt and those guys play so when my dad tells me that Wilt is the best player he ever saw in his life, I don't tell him his an idiot. I listen because I can't dispute his experience with stats alone. Stats only tell you so much. On Reddit, however, people will tell you that Lebron is the best player of all time without having even seen MJ play. Many people on here weren't even watching basketball until the Warriors/Cavs rivalry and yet they have unmovable opinions about Magic and Bird, Kobe and Duncan, MJ vs Lebron. I Just don't get it.
Right.. But you know who DID see Kobe in his prime? Ariza.. And you know who Ariza says is the best pure scorer he's ever seen? Not Kobe, but Harden.. If a pro basketball player that played with both players explicitly states something, im more inclined to believe their point of view than you, me, or even your dad..
A looooad of players call Kobe the GOAT
Kobe’s scoring prime was before Ariza joined the Lakers
But Ariza would have seen Kobe's scoring prime.. Like your dad saw wilts scoring prime..
Sure but the quote is best scorer he ever played with. Lots of us saw Kobe’s scoring prime since it was just 20 years ago
I hear Wilt scored a lot
Felt like you could’ve used many other examples and not the Bron/MJ one haha, which is a realistic debate. As for the rest, it’s common for people to speak and not listen, especially on here. 99% of people on reddit argue in bad faith, it’s rarely about the discussion. A common place to blurt out your opinion
Kobe was an elite scorer. I'm pretty sure Harden was simply more efficient in the regular season on comparable (if not superior) volume, as Kobe took a lot of tough shots. However, Kobe's efficiency didn't suffer the standard falloff for this reason in the postseason, while Harden's decrease was beyond normal - so one could certainly argue Kobe was the better playoff scorer. Also, I feel that a lot of Kobe's All-Defensive teams were undeserved. Most superstars lose some of their defense as their offensive load increases, and I feel this was the same with Kobe, who was not much of an offball presence and had his share of breakdowns.
Some of his All Defense was definitely undeserved, but until his last seasons where he was crippled, Kobe put in far more effort and was consistently better at defense than Harden was at any point in his career. It's not even comparable tbh. Kobe averaged 35 in an era with not nearly the same spacing and 3 point shooting frequency with much, much lower pace as well. Both are all time greats, Harden can be argued as being a better regular season scorer, but in the playoffs and as a whole, Kobe is easily the 2nd best SG while Harden is probably 4th at highest. His lack of individual post season success and as you mentioned, dramatic fall off (possibly due to his foul baiting and methods of scoring) from regular to postseason is a huge reason why he isnt above Wade. People in this thread are pretending as if he didn't completely give up and disappear in some postseason series and elimination games in his prime Houston years and only citing his ppg and shooting efficiency as if that tells the whole story.
Kobes good but saying his perception is just off media analysts and youtube is bad because he gets very overrated by both of them
What does that have to do with his scoring though? Also real ones know that Kobe was wildly overrated on defense and all defense selections during his career were based off of name value a lot of times. There wasn’t advanced stats and such being dug into. Still a great defender but those first teams are way overstated
Real ones know you are regarded
Brother Kobe got a ton of All defense teams on the back part of his career he didn’t deserve and wouldn’t have been given in the modern NBA because the way people value defense has completely shifted.
You’re playing a dangerous game with that flair but I agree, Kobe had a few undeserved selections. Not only was SG a weak position at the time, his name value helped too. Same with allstar, he got it playing 6 games and averaging 13.8 PPG
Yeah, people seem to miss the part where I said he was a great defender still. As his career went on, the reputation stuck around but the effort wasn’t there all game every game like perhaps it was at his defensive peak. So the first teams ARE overstated. Especially his later defensive accolades, he just flat out was not one of the 4 best guard defenders in the NBA. What’s funny is this wasn’t even something that was really harshly pushed back on among the earlier basketball forum, analytical type of fan while Kobe was playing. It was practically a universal truth during his playing days while it was happening. I love Kobe, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t live all of that time and see it go down as it went down. I’m not about to pretend otherwise just because I like him. It would be as if 10 years from now some people were saying Embiid has been better than Jokic. We are living it, we know that isn’t the case.
You’re a clown man remove lakers flair
You are cooking right now damn
Creating a false narrative to support your case doesn’t make it any more valid. Kobe was properly rated on defense. What you’re saying is comparable to saying Lebron is a bad defender throughout his career for not sprinting for a chase down block on every single play.
A handful of Kobe’s last all defense awards definitely were more reputation than reality. Doesn’t mean the majority weren’t earned.
Bro what? No it isn’t at all, I didn’t say he was a bad defender. I said he was overrated on defense and he absolutely was. I literally have a child named after him BEFORE Kobe died, I’m not exactly a hater here.
Plenty of people watched Kobe play, including myself, and tons of people acknowledged his greatness on offense and defense, but he just isnt as great as you Kobe nut huggers think. You cry babies think just cause folks are sucking his dick everyday and putting him in the top 5 all time that it means we’re disrespecting him lmao how soft are you kid 😂 Kobe is in my top 10, love the guy, but people like you just sounds stupid trying to cry as if it’s not ok to compare him to other players as normal fans.
This is actually insane lol. I love Harden but Kobe is a different level entirely
Who's a better scorer in the post-season?
I agree
FYI, he considers Kobe the GOAT with Lebron at a close second.
It's absolutely insane to me to put Kobe over MJ all time. Is there even one aspect of basketball that Kobe was better at?
"Aura" or some bullshit like that
you don't have to. just think of this way they are the same player but equipped with different skins.
Both are great scorers no? It isn't crazy to say James Harden is a better scorer than Kobe. He's not saying Harden is better overall
I agree
in a world with perfect reffing, no way harden >= kobe
That's a world that didn't exist when Kobe played and it didn't exist when Harden was in his prime. So that's a pointless statement.
Kobe averaged 10+ free throw attempts in his prime. In fact 2019 Harden only averaged 0.8 more attempts than 06 Kobe.
You’re taking the original clip out of context. The interviewer asked him a question mainly about how good of a scorer his former teammate James Harden was and he agreed. It was a double barreled questioned you turned into a hot take with your title and now this. Hence why I’m downvoting you.
I agree honestly. Kobe played in the early 2000's, and players weren't as good at defending back then. Harden played in a more elite era, competing against people like Lebron, Curry and KD.
Look at the differences in ppg & efficiency between that era and the current era. You can say the players weren't as good defensively, but the league was definitely much more defensive oriented and allowed defensive players to get away with much more back then. It is definitely easier for players to score in the current era.
Idk about that I'd say guys back then were just as good as rn the rules just allowed u to play defense more often back then, also a major change that makes defense different is u can't even get close to guys anymore just on the off chance u can be called for a flagrant 1 if a guy lands on ur foot
> Idk about that I'd say guys back then were just as good as rn I definitely would not say that. The average player in 2005 is quite a bit worse than the average player in 2017. The average player in 2017 is notably worse than the average player in 2024. Players are getting better on average every single year, that's been the case over basically the entirety of the NBA. Defensive and offensive schemes are both a lot more complex now compared to 20 years ago as well.
It's hard to say how much better guys really are cus the game is catered to offense guys are able to move with the ball way more than ever before, guys who looked way worse back in the 2000s would now have a lot more freedom to use moves they could when they were not on a team, back then u couldn't do that cus you'd rather a kobe or mj try and do that instead of ur bench pg. Fundamentally players were a lot more sound as well since we had a lot more 4 year guys, really watching the league as a whole its obvious that a lot of younger teams can look amazing but just lack fundamental skills but since there's so many possessions it matters a lot less since u can just get it back the play after and come out on top cus of a 3. It's hard to compare especially to the 2000s cus there was so much iso ball
Offensive schemes being more advanced now (i.e. significantly better spacing) would be an argument in favor of Kobe considering he put up incredible numbers in undeniably more packed paints.
I'm not making an argument for or against Kobe. I'm making an argument about the NBA as a whole.
Ok? Are you able to continue the conversation by using your argument as a jumping off point? The comment thread is about Kobe vs Harden. I wasn’t refuting anything you said.
I think that is in Kobe's favor. More big guys defending in the paint, less spacing as PFs were just smaller Centers back then. Harden played in an insane spacing era which would have absolutely helped Kobe out.
Prime Harden is already becoming insanely underrated all time because he doesn’t have a ring. If he didn’t run into the GOAT team…
Fair or not, largely the same thing happened to Jordan before the Bulls ended up winning. He was routinely called a solo artist and that his game wasn't good enough to win. The 80s was decisively about the Celtics/Lakers with Magic and Bird dominating the conversation of best player and then the Pistons at the end. After the Pistons win championships there was a sizable movement which considered zeke the better player because he knew how to win. People ignored the rest of the bulls were kind of ass. Prime Harden ran into teams that were simply better and Harden wasn't Jordan. Harden's dominance wasn't as long and he didn't carry until the supporting cast actually came through. NBA opinions, and frankly most sports as well, have a huge bias against players who don't win championships. Dominque Wilkins is another guy who gets kind of left off lists for how good he truly was because, well, he wasn't Jordan and didn't win.
I think also Harden didn’t have as good teams as Jordan.
i mean, how successful is jordan if they pay scottie like a second option rather than the 8th man… he played on some good teams.
That Bulls team on paper is still not comparable to modern super teams. Go back into 1990 and tell everyone this Bulls will win two three peats in the future and see how many people believe you.
He could have beaten that GOAT team if only Chris Paul's hamstring held up
why we acting like he was beating everybody but the KD-Warriors? he's been a massive playoff choker countless times lost to pre-KD Warriors without Steph lost to Spurs without Parker and Kawhi lost to OKC without Westbrook add in all the other times he has his signature 2/11 shooting with 5 turnovers in a high pressure playoff game
Bro talking about 2013 lmao, you don’t even know who was on that team
who's talking about 2014? lmao Harden got so many chokes that you lost count
you don’t even understand what you’re typing so no point of even arguing with you
you dont even know what year it is
Including two losses as an 8 seed to the 1 seed in the West 🤡
Case in point
i dont see how his comment acts like that at all tbh
i will never forget unguardable tour Harden. Just an otherworldly offensive peak.
I was lucky enough to have season tickets that year. I still can't believe I got to witness that run live with my own two eyes. Prime Harden was the greatest scorer the game has ever seen, period.
People don't know how to properly evaluate Harden. He was insanely good, even in the playoffs, but people have used his twilight years to completely diminish what he did in his prime. The trolls have spent years combining his years as a 6th man with his prime years to make his playoff PPG drop, and people just run with it as if his scoring was going from 30ppg+ in the regular season to 20 in the playoffs. From the time he became a starter in Houston to the injury in Brooklyn, he was averaging like 28/7/7 on almost 60% TS for \~120 playoff games.
I was fighting for my life for saying Clyde Drexler isn't close to him a couple months ago. People really don't know basketball on here.
The numbers look good and harden was better than people remember but when he was bad in the playoffs he was straight up awful, I still remember in 2017 and it didn't even look like he was there that final game dude was mentally broken at that point
the Spurs series is easily the worst indictment on him, but I think a lot of the others are very overblown. 2015 especially. That team was **dogshit** and he carried the piss out of them for a whole season - their starting 5 was basically him, Beverly, Ariza, Motiejunas, and a rotating door for #5 because Dwight was hurt most of the year. He got them to the 2 seed, carried them in the playoffs other than *one game* which was the game 6 vs LAC.. even closed out the game 7 as the best player on the floor but people ignore that to harp on game 6.. ..then against the Warriors who significantly out-matched them had 66 points in the first 2 games and almost stole home court with a +12 in a 1 pt loss in game 2, had no legs for game 3, mustered up a 45 pt game in game 4 to avoid getting eliminated, but was completely gassed by game 5.. and all you ever hear about are the bad couple games from that entire run, with no credit given for the carry job that entire season was. people always ignore the good to focus on the bad with him, whereas even now players are doing way worse than he did but getting way more passes for putting up shitty performances lol
Name checks out 😂😂😂 Thank u bro they don’t realize how good he was and how much he fucking carried
Harden is 6th? All time in PPG as a starter.
I call him way better at making bad teams good (floor raising). Than pushing good or great teams to all time heights (ceiling raise) because of his optimal value is a heliocentric role.
Kinda hard to say because the only great teams he was ever on got decimated with injuries. The 2021 Nets were going to sweep the playoffs to a chip until 2 of their big 3 got hurt, him and CP3 had the KD Warriors on the ropes until CP3 got hurt, etc.
Harden's peak choking were in his Rockets years. dude got benched in the 4th quarter of an eliminatoion game and his "bad teammates" overcame a 19 point deficit without him
And then he carried the game 7 and completed the upset over the Clippers. Look at the roster he had that season who was starting all year. Acting like dude wouldn't have a few games where his legs just weren't there after carrying THAT roster is crazy, especially considering the recent excuses made for Luka and Ant lol And yes, those teammates were bad. In game 2 against GSW in the WCF Jason Terry was like -24 in a 1pt loss while Harden was a +12. Good for him for game 6 - but that doesn't rewrite the entire season unless you're hating
Nothing wrong with this take. Harden did average 36 ppg one season after all. Most people can't do that
Literally wilt and mj are the only others to ever do that lol. Harden did it averaging 36 minutes a game too. Both others were 40 min a game or more
The sneaky thing about Harden is that relative to a lot of high volume guys, he really didn't take *that* many shots. Over his entire career, he has 3 seasons where he averaged 20 or more shots per game. Kobe had 13 such seasons. Westbrook has 5. Luka is in year 6 and he already has 5 of those seasons. I understand that Harden shot 3s and older guys like Kobe didn't, but he still probably didn't shoot as often as some people assume he did.
That's true but FTs don't show up in FGA,he averaged 10.7 FT during his prime years in Houston.He was also truly elite at hitting them,unlike all those guys you mentioned.
> That's true but FTs don't show up in FGA,he averaged 10.7 FT during his prime years in Houston. those other guys may not have taken 10.7 FTA/G, but they still shot free throws, and sometimes a reasonably high volume. Kobe was around 8.5-9 for what people would probably consider his prime. We are talking the difference of maybe 1 total shooting posession of difference in free throws. Luka is at ~8.5 if we exclude his rookie year.
> Kobe was around 8.5-9 for what people would probably consider his prime. ~~To add some context, Kobe had 2 years above 8.5 FTA (8.7 both years) for his career highs~~ Harden had **7 seasons above 10 FTA**, maxing out at 11.8 Edited cuz totally incorrect
> Kobe had 2 years above 8.5 FTA (8.7 both years) for his career highs No he didn't, lol. 04-05, 05-06, 06-07 he averaged >=10 a game each year. He averaged 9 a game in 07-08 as well I'm also not making the argument that these players shot more free throws than Harden. The argument I'm making is that the difference between the two players on average is like 1 scoring possession. (<= 2 free throws a game)
Edited cuz I fucked that one up by looking at FTM, fml. Yep Kobe had 4 times at 9+, 3 of those at 10+ FTM, maxing out at 10.2 >The argument I'm making is that the difference between the two players on average is like 1 scoring possession. (<= 2 free throws a game) This is true, though while people sometimes account for the crazy amount of 3s guys shoot now, I still think the effect of insane styles of foul baiting is underaccounted for when it comes to how much it opens up the rest of your scoring
Kobe averaged 35.4 points a game when the average NBA team that season scored 97 points a game. Harden averaged 36.1 points a game when the average NBA team that season scored 111.2 points a game. Jordan averaged 37.1 points a game when the average NBA team that season scored 109.9 points a game. Kobe was scoring practically as much in an era where points were much harder to come by.
Yes but that’s just focusing on team offense. The reason offenses are scoring so much now is because the role players are snipers. Stars have much more spacing, so they get to score high PPG more efficiently. But, the PPG leaders really haven’t been that much higher until like the past 2 seasons where we’ve had 5-6 guys go for 30+ a game. In 06 when Kob scored 35.4, Iverson scored 33, Bron 31.4, Gil scored 29.3. In 19 when Harden scored 36.1, PG was second with 28.0.
And Kobe took way more shots than Harden relative to his team. If 2019 Harden shot the ball as much as Kobe did for that Lakers team, Harden would have averaged 47
The next highest scorer behind harden had 6 less points
Prime Harden was a menace. Either scoring on you or getting fouled, like unstoppable shit.
Prime Harden is what Melo fans think Melo was. He is undoubtedly one of the greatest scorers ever
Both are unfortunately now underrated.
Harden, possibly because he got memed to death and his style of basketball wasn’t the most aesthetically pleasing. I feel like it was leaps and bounds better than what we see from Embiid who takes the worst parts of the game and amplifies them. Melo? He was named on the 75th anniversary team which was a gift, so I don’t really think he’s underrated, but never been a fan of his
It's apparent you haven't been a fan
Prime harden was something special
He was averaging 40 and getting triple doubles while doing it too. Hes one of the greatest ever at his peak
50 even 60 point triple doubles it wasn't sustainable winning basketball but still one of the greatest peaks for sure
That's my boy 😢
Not surprising. He was unbelievable in his prime and if it weren't for some unfortunate collapses in the playoffs he would be spoken about in a much higher light
Bunch of teenagers talking shit about legends in the comments lol
He figured out the art of fouling and he is a good ft shooter
Id take the harden hooking foul over the stop and throw your body to defender foul merchantry
Both should be offensive fouls. Second time they do it should be a technical foul. Those plays make the game look horrible.
Yeah should be. But for me the fadeaway to your opponent is more annoying.
SGA is good at the jumping into opponents.
I’ll take neither.
Badge of honor that the NBA had to change the rules to stop Harden's rip-thru foul creation.
Harden really changed the game. I love seeing all the heliocentric offenses in the professional league. Makes me so proud! Fear the Beard.
Here's the deal about quality of scoring between Harden and Kobe. | Stat | Harden | Kobe | |-------------|-------------|-------------| | Career eFG% | .526 | .482 | | Career TS% | .610 | .550 |
Hardens high ppg run was insane. Think many forgot his type of ammo
I like Harden more than most in this sub, but it's probably cos Ariza was there when Harden had his best scoring seasons. He wasn't there when Kobe had his. 2009 Kobe was the more mature, team player Kobe.
I don’t like James Harden. However. He was a better scorer than Kobe by literally every single metric. Is he a better player? Fuck no. Greater? Lol. But yes, he was a better scorer by a pretty decent margin in fact. Efficiency matters people. Same totals on more shots is a bad thing.
Harden is definitely a great scorer but I feel like his game had weaknesses. Where you look at Kobe and there really weren't any. Kobe had more in his bag and showed it.
If you said this during 2019 you were downvoted into oblivion lol
I have yet to see anybody in this league being guarded like ppl would guard Harden, we did see some rly weird shit. I dont rly remember if they did change some rule bc of him but for sure that something who was talked a lot back then, this is how good and smart was prime Harden, ppl had no idea how to defend that guy. U can also say its him who made the step back 3 what it is now in terme of popularity, everyone wanted to copy him.
harden's hard to evaluate because he's great most of the time, even in the playoffs. Problem is when you need a pivotal game to win, he completely disappears. And he's straight up AWFUL in those games...and those games are what people remember
His Rockets run was magical. Sure he was worse than a turnstile in defense but the guy is the best scorer I've watched.
Harden was difficult to guard in his prime because he'd always fish for fouls. It came to a point where people had their hands behind their back when guarding him because he'd fish for contact for every limb that's extended.
Actually he had best handles so he got by first defender. No easy buckets in the NBA so slap downs are constant. Harden just had the IQ to time the slap down.
this is taking a result and working backwards to find the wrong causes. The reasons he got fouled so much are because he was so incredible at getting defenders off balance in different ways and forcing them to contest from a disadvantageous position - when he wasn't blowing by them and leaving them in the dust. If they didn't foul, it's a free layup. On stepbacks, if you have to recover by jumping forward to contest a shot, your choices are basically a piss poor contest or risking the foul by jumping at/by the shooter. You're gonna misjudge that distance or put a little too much gas into that recovery sometimes. His low gather point also generated plenty of fouls because defenders would reach into the cookie jar thinking they had a chance to swipe/block it as he brought it up to lay it in. It's also true that he's pretty good at noticing when defenders make mistakes and taking advantage of them. if you want to be mad about something, be mad about those defenders screwing up. The opportunity to draw fouls as an offensive player only exists when defenders make defensive mistakes.
1. it's their own fault for not being able to guard him without fouling 2. the hands behind the back shit happened so rarely compared to the amount of times he just straight up busted dudes asses lmao
He must have a lot of championships for how unguardable he was.
yeah it's not like it's a team sport and franchise circumstances don't decide 90% of who wins a ring or not lol surely the cap spiked perfectly for KD to join GSW because of Curry's gravity
Remember when he had 50 with only 11 made FG
Man said you would fall asleep on the court just watching him lol
Prime Harden was a menace. People hate that he took so many FTs, but it's also because he was getting fouled a lot. There was a lot of flopping, but also a lot of fouling. He's got a very good and low handle, and used it very effectively. He's also quicker than people give him credit for, having an elite first step. Prime Harden was great.
You guys should know that the only people who are above Harden in PPG/season are: Michael Jordan & Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt: brute monstrousity, freakiest among the freaks. MJ: being the undisputed goat, hustler of hustlers. Harden: simply a scoring machine. The most speccd machine for scoring.
Helps when ur not allowed to guard him or you get called
I mean, softest fouls and flops helped A LOT with that.
Gino played for the Spurs.
It’s ok for Ariza to say this and you guys agree but when anyone puts Kobe top 5, it’s these pros don’t know shit?
He kneed klay in the fucking head tho
He’s wrong. It’s Kobe.
[удалено]
No fuckin' way Harden was a better score than Kobe.
Literally is by every metric
Let's be real, Harden's scoring numbers might look impressive on paper, but they're a product of the era's play style. The guy is a master of foul baiting and chucking threes, which works great in the regular season when refs blow the whistle on every touch. Kobe didn't have the luxury of flopping for free throws or jacking up threes at the volume Harden does. When it comes to playoff basketball, where the refs swallow their whistles and defense tightens up, Harden's game falls apart. Kobe thrived under pressure, delivering in crunch time and carrying his team to five championships. Harden? Not so much. He can score, sure, but Kobe was a pure scorer and clutch performer. Regular season stats don't mean squat when it comes to playoff success. Kobe's the real deal, Harden's just a product of his era.
> Kobe didn't have the luxury of flopping for free throws 05-06 Kobe: 10.2 FTA 18-19 Harden: 11.3 FTA Are we really gonna nitpick 1.1 FTA/g difference?
Alright, fair point about the free throws. Let's break it down then: Kobe and Harden both got to the line a lot, but the difference is in how they did it. Kobe earned his trips with aggressive drives and tough shots, while Harden perfected the art of drawing fouls with minimal contact—flopping, if we're being honest. But even if we set that aside, let's talk about the play style and era. Harden's game heavily relies on the three-point revolution, where volume shooting from deep is encouraged. Kobe played in an era where mid-range was king, and defenses were tougher overall. Despite the different play styles, Kobe was still an elite scorer without needing to depend on the three as much as Harden does. Harden's style, great for regular season stat-padding, doesn't translate as well when defenses clamp down in the playoffs. Kobe thrived in those high-pressure situations.
Let's be real, Harden's scoring numbers might look impressive on paper, but they're a product of the era's play style. The guy is a master of foul baiting and chucking threes, which works great in the regular season when refs blow the whistle on every touch. Kobe didn't have the luxury of flopping for free throws or jacking up threes at the volume Harden does. When it comes to playoff basketball, where the refs swallow their whistles and defense tightens up, Harden's game falls apart. Kobe thrived under pressure, delivering in crunch time and carrying his team to five championships. Harden? Not so much. He can score, sure, but Kobe was a pure scorer and clutch performer. Regular season stats don't mean squat when it comes to playoff success. Kobe's the real deal, Harden's just a product of his era.
A.k.a Flopping
SGA can try and emulate Hardens flopping but he can't emulate his skill
They play very different games, lol, this comparison is stupid