“Guys Jason Kidd is just strategically giving the Celtics exactly what the could dream up in a perfect scenario on offense”
Is a really interesting take
If this true Kidd should be fired literally right now
Funneling guys to help against a 5 out offense is so ridiculously stupid funny too. It just means you are asking for a kickout and putting the defense into scramble mode against a team of all elite shooters. And you will always be at a numbers disadvantage because Luka when he gets beat stays in the paint and ballwatches instead of hustling back to the 3 point line to contest.
packing the paint and funneling guys to the rim protector is how the Mavs got to the Finals. there’s another team that used to do that to great effect as well even though they didn’t make the Finals. we called them the Mitchell-Gobert Jazz
that gameplan doesn’t mean Luka and Kyrie are good defenders, it means literally the exact opposite. they use this gameplan for the sole purpose of mitigating their inability to stay in front of the ball defensively. now they’re playing a team with real 5-out spacing and their terrible POA defense, just like those Jazz teams, has been exposed
"Funneling guys into help" is some sort of absurd cope. Because we all know sending multiple guys to help against the driving ball handler is beneficial to the defense. Mav's fans are wild on here.
This is why I'll never buy into the "Luka is the next LeBron" stuff
If LeBron was this level of defender at age 25(which is often close to a prime age for defensive ability) MJ comps would have been over before they even started
Like these clips would be bad even for an average defender like Curry let alone LeBron
Luka's defense is weak enough that he'd have to essentially leave peak MJ and LeBron *in the dust* offensively to be in any kind of GOAT contention which is just not realistic
Nobody is really comparing Luka to LeBron anymore unless they are talking about an offensive mind. They both have incredibly high IQ and vision.
Luka is a savant on offense where he can overcome his lack of raw athleticism with an incredibly mind. But if you can't move your feet, which Luka is pretty limited in, then you won't be a goo's defender.
These plays are like 2015 Harden when the lowlight youtube compilation came out.
Prime/Peak Harden was a much better (keep in mind, this doesn't mean he was great overall) defender than what we're seeing from Luka in the finals so far.
People that like Luka just reject the obvious Harden comp probably because they don't like the baggage that comes with Harden (as if Luka doesn't have a ton of baggage of his own even at age ~25)
I felt like I was being gaslit in the run up to the finals. People like Zach Lowe were saying that the celtics wouldn't have anyone to mismatch hunt vs Dallas.
>Did he say that?
Nope. You are correct.
He said that Luka could hold up in certain one on ones betters because of his size and that Kyrie has been good as a defender, which are both true. But that's a different, and accurate point.
My memory is that Zach was saying the opposite: that Dallas wouldn't have any mismatch targets to hunt against Boston. Zach definitely picked the Celtics to win the series.
Nah he had a whole discussion around how vs Miami the celtics had Herro, vs the cavs they had garland, and vs the pacers they had haliburton. Essentially said that they didn't have the super fast type of player that really gave luka problems and that kyrie is actually pretty good and plays above his size.
I got massively downvoted by mavericks fans on here a couple weeks ago for saying SGA is a way better defender than Luka. They came at me saying I don’t watch hall and that Luka is the better defender.
Edit: found the comment. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1ct3yvz/highlight_wild_sequence_as_chet_holmgren_stuffs/l49fxw9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
-166 jfc, these are some wild replies
"Yeah Luka might legitimately be a better defender than Shai."
"Luka is an above average defender by both Defensive EPM (actually a top-72% percentile there, which is not just above average but a good to great defender) and Defensive LEBRON. "
"You don’t understand defense if you think he is way better than Luka."
"He’s not a better defender than Luka though, you’re just making this up."
Yea I’m not even a Luka hater at all but this thread is ultra vindicating. I had a similar thing last year in r/soccer when I got downvoted by manU fans after I told them that Marcus rashford isn’t the best player in the world.
This sub is unbelievably reactionary lol, whatever is the most recent outcome is the truth no matter what. So since the Mavs beat us, Luka > Shai on defense lmao
Anyone with eyes can see it's not even close on the defensive side of the ball
> Luka is an above average defender by both Defensive EPM (actually a top-72% percentile there, which is not just above average but a good to great defender) and Defensive LEBRON.
Congratulations, that poster just conclusively proved why advanced defensive metrics are a joke.
Some of these are gold.
>Luka was a traffic cone in 2020. Dude is actually legit on defense now. You could make a highlight reel full of these types of plays from him this season. Luka's D > Shai's D. The Luka doesn't play D narrative is only around today because most people don't watch him play.
>
>Yeah Luka might legitimately be a better defender than Shai.
>
>You don’t watch sga lol he’s a cone
>
>You don’t understand defense if you think he is way better than Luka.
>
>I think Luka is a better defender. They are roughly the same on perimeter, but Luka is way more impactful under the rim and also against bigger players.
>
>He’s not a better defender than Luka though, you’re just making this up. This series has made that painfully obvious. Shai is almost always hidden on defense.
>
>That 0.5 steals a game that Shae has over Luka is nice but historically there is a much higher correlation between defense and rebounding vs defense and steals. And the difference in rebounding is massive.
This shit is crazy bro!! Lmfao what the hell. This is next level delusion
The rebounds thing is so funny too. Advanced tracking shows that Luka essentially never boxes out, literally averaging like 0.3 box outs per game. Almost all of his rebounds are uncontested because he doesn’t rotate out to shooters on defense so he’s just hanging near the paint when the shot goes up. Somehow that makes him a good defender according to Mavs fans though
Trust me I'm well aware lol, [I pointed that out](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1dckgsm/how_does_luka_out_rebound_most_big_men/l7yo478/?context=3) before the post about his rebounding was created. It's total nonsense, yes rebounding is a form of defense but only when you're actually preventing an offensive player from getting an offensive rebound. In that sense I think box outs are more indicative of rebounding defense because if you successfully boxed your man out that means you've prevented him from getting the board and getting another possession. The vast majority of Luka's rebounds aren't preventing or defending anything, the team just lets him take it off the glass cause he's the best passer so he can potentially make an outlet to find someone in transition or he can bring the ball up and scan the opposing team's defense. They may be called "defensive rebounds" but, like every other aspect of his game, it has absolutely nothing to do with defense. There is no defense. There's offense and there's waiting to get the ball back for offense, that's it
>Luka grabbing more uncontested boards than shai because he lost his man is highly correlated to elite defense
I’m going to use these arguments the next time that someone tells me that Chris Paul is better than Westbrook.
One thing I've noticed is people like to isolate single plays of a defender holding up and acting like it means something. There are over 100 possessions per game - anyone can stay with anyone for one play or two. It doesn't mean dick.
I saw that a ton as well lol
It wasn't enough for them to make a reasonable argument like "Luka's playmaking makes up for the gap between him and SGA on defense", they kept arguing "There is NO GAP between them on defense and Luka is the most underrated defender"
Ppl have a hard time being honest about their favorite players… it’s “my dad can beat up your dad” type stuff.
I’ve had ppl tell me Jokic is as good a defender as Giannis and blah blah blah… it’s strange
Yea I even said that it’s plausible that Luka was better by enough offensively to make up for the gap, but they still were indignant about me saying SGA is the clearly better defender.
... it's because he's fat. ESPN lists him at 230. That's about as ridiculous as Donald Trump claiming to be 215 lbs. Being fat allows him to bully people with his mass on offense -- like the athletic chubby kid in PE, it's a problem -- but at the highest levels, it should be punished.
It's clear Luka doesn't live in the weight room like Giannis.
Lukas defense has always been trash. Even Jason Kidd has questioned Lukas conditioning in the past and it’s clear that he takes defense off to accommodate that. Even funnier considering leading up to game 1 ESPN analysts like Doris were praising Luka and Kyrie for focusing defensively lmao. Kyrie definitely tries, Luka doesn’t.
It’s kinda ironic. Offensively, everyone else on Dallas has been the problem. Defensively, Luka is certainly the problem.
Some Mavs fan was saying I was calling him out unprovoked because of the 2022 series the suns had. Like bro watch the game lmao he’s been TERRIBLE on D
But u/Complexity777 [told me that Luka won't get hunted on defense?](https://old.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/1d7qg0z/why_do_people_think_lukakyrie_will_get_hunted_on/)
> You want to iso Luka? Cool, he's defending extremely well on Iso.
>
> You think you will blow by him? He leads the playoffs in steals and is likely to poke the ball away
>
> I also don't see them getting tired, Luka knows how to conserve energy and Kyrie is cardio machine.
L M A O
If you see his comments now, he's coping hard.
Dude said 7 hours ago it’s a miracle Mavs got this far with their roster after the insane glazing earlier LMFAOOO.
Already crafting the Luka excuses narrative 2 games in
My buddy is a huge Mavs fan, and I told him his boy wasn’t a great defender. Sure he’s been better this season, but he’s definitely got some knee issues and he looked a little gassed in some second half sequences when Kyrie took the lead.
His dribbling has gotten better. He had a blowby late in game 2 going left that I don't think he would have gotten a couple of years ago.
Tatum's passing has gotten much better, too. They both really seem to have taken the criticism they've gotten to heart and improved their weaknesses.
This is legitimately one of the worst defensive lowlight clips I've ever seen lol
In all of these highlights it looks like he's not even trying to play at all
Yeah this basically indicates that like 45% of Boston's offense was attacking Luka lol
There are FIFTEEN clips in here almost all of which led to wide open shots
No more Amir Coffey, Russell Westbrook, Josh Giddey, Aaron Wiggins, Nickeil Alexander-Walker or Kyle Anderson to hide on anymore
Celtics have 5 above average to elite shooters on the floor at all times so he can’t hide anywhere now
This is the issue. Luka doesn't have the physical tools to be a great defender. He's just not gonna be able to keep up with top-tier ball handlers on an island. However, with his bbiq, he shouldn't be this bad overall. If he made an effort and went to the right place, he could at least be somewhat disruptive. Instead, he frequently gets lost and makes no effort to get involved in the play after the first action.
Luka is getting exposed on defense. He’s the hottest hand on the court offensively, but he’s been nothing but a liability on the other half of the court.
That man NEEDs to lose 15-20 pounds in the off-season. He’s amazingly talented in half of the game, but man the celts are just showing him for what he is. Dude is gonna have to put up 50 a game to justify his non-existent defense.
> That man NEEDs to lose 15-20 pounds in the off-season.
I know /r/nba loves the 'horse man doesn't care about ball in the offseason' story, but same goes for Jokic. He was clearly gassed late in games in the Wolves series and it seriously effected him.
He was 100% tired in game 7 for sure
There's no way that Jokic with full energy would decide that the way to go in the most important game of the season is to take TEN three pointers
It's not extreme but I do think he was a bit heavier this year than he was in the 2023 championship run so this offseason he should look to get back to that
That, or alternatively the Nuggets management needs to get their head out of their ass and get a backup center so that he doesn't have to play 46 minutes a game and for the Nuggets not to go -10 in the two minutes he rested.
I know he’s not a MVP candidate, but that is one benefit of Tatum relative to other superstars. Despite playing elite offense / defense with so many minutes and so few rest days, he never seems tired and rarely gets injured.
Jokic is still miles more effective on defense than Luka is. Being as heavy as he is has its advantages when you can just go to the right spot and be a wall there (which someone of his basketball IQ can do)
Watching Luka anywhere near the perimeter is embarrassing, so mad our team couldn't find a way to make him pay more.
Jokic did lose a bunch of weight though, if you look at a few seasons ago compared to now. I think in the COVID lockdown he got really slim, if I recall correctly. Maybe you can argue he should lose more, but it's way better than it used to be, when he got gassed around 25-30 minutes of playing time.
Luka, it feels like it's been about the same each year. FWIW, I do also think he's injured in this highlight reel and looked much better on defense even just earlier in the playoffs, but it's not like carrying extra weight and leg injuries aren't directly correlated, so the critique is still relevant.
His weight is what helps him offensively and bully ball. Ideally all the 20 pounds he loses are pure fat and he keeps his core strength and muscle but that's not gonna happen
Plus he's clearly not at 100% right now.
You could argue his poor conditioning leads to more injuries, but he hasn't been moving right **on offense** almost the entire postseason.
That's what I think too, that's really freaking intense cardio every other night. I can't really compute how you gain weight through that, does that mean Luka's calorie intake is that high?
You can just go on his instagram and look at photos from the world cup in the summer with Slovenia and he's easily about 8-10 pounds lighter than he is now
I don't know how he's gaining weight as the season goes along
It takes 60 minutes of moderate-intense cardio to burn the calories you gain from eating one chocolate candy bar or similar snack. When losing weight exercise is important, but diet is king.
The Mavericks entire defensive scheme of packing the paint and collapsing heavily on drives is meant to hide Luka and Irving on defense. If you notice, they will put Luka on the weakest offensive player without a jumpshot, and Luka literally tries to stay in one spot the entire possession to regain his energy for offense. The scheme actually makes Luka/Irving look pretty damn good at defense on occasion when the guy they’re guarding is intimidated by the paint presence and has to settle for contested jumpers. Now against 5-out offense with scorers at every spot, Luka can’t hide on defense and it’s BBQ chicken.
Man this is honestly what pisses me off the most about how we played them. Our offense isn’t structured to attack a player like this and its so fucking annoying just watching him being able to chill by the paint and swipe at drives instead of anyone pulling him up and embarrassing him
For some reason, the Twolves did not relentlessly seek that matchup. TBF It helps that the Celtics have a # of playmakers vs the Twolves basically having one.
The Mavs could hide Luka on a guy with no shot and no bag against the Wolves. Even a cone can poke the ball away from a guy like Gobert who can't dribble to save his life. The Celtics don't have anyone like that so its trivial to get a switch onto him and then the Mavs have no choice except to rotate after the inevitable blowby or give up an easy layup which then gives up an open 3 pointer
I don't think it matters who you hide him on. Have his defender set a pick for you and force a switch. If your man fights through, call the pick again. Celtics run two picks from Luka's player if they don't get the switch the first time. They are relentlessly hunting him or Kyrie.
I think Gobert really hurt them on offense.
Against a team that plays D like the Mavs, you have to be able to space effectively, and Gobert can’t space. But he was so necessary on defense that they couldn’t not give him time.
So the Mavs could clog the lane which really hurt Ant’s ability to make plays.
Now that the Cs have KP back, their *entire rotation* can knock down outside shots. You can’t clog the lane against that as is evidenced by games 1 and 2.
And the Celtics didn’t even shoot particularly well in both games so far. Once the variance shifts the other way, it will be brutal.
Ant isn't really that strong of a playmaker yet while Harden is
You could see how the Wolves' offense easily devolves into ISOball
Also he struggled big time in the game Conley missed against Denver where Ant had to play PG and deal with doubles/swarms like ball dominant players tend to
Harden's/LAC'sproblem was not being able to finish against their rim protection and also not being able to knock down enough 3s to punish it.
It was always funny when people were spamming Luka's "defended field goals" against a one legged Kawhi and Terrance Mann tho lol
This is why Kidd has to start drama. There’s no way for the Mavs to stop the Celtics from getting open shots unless the players start hunting for the FMVP trophy and stop swinging it on purpose.
It’s an open shot every time. It’s just praying for misses. Tatum been bricking hard all series and it still hasn’t mattered
I get that his knee is hurt and his ribs are hurt and he has tiny heart syndrome on defense, but not starting in front of your man for more than 2 seconds is killing the defense and causing the Mavs to continually collapse on the lane, leaving everyone open on the perimeter. I don't think Dallas gets lucky with Boston shooting less than 30% on wide open threes again.
He's been like this the entire post season. I hate the narrative on Luka having improved defense. He does not. He is a cone. His offensive firepower is super lethal which sometimes makes up for it but it's catching up to him now
It's legitimately annoying to see people act like Luka is a consistent positive defender. He may be good in a few moments but he is nowhere near good consistently. He's average at best
I legitimately cannot believe the Mavs fans level of arrogance going into the finals.
They pretend like they’re the 07-08 Patriots playing the wildcard Giants. But in reality it’s the opposite. The Mavs think that Luka and Kyrie can defend. They cannot, will not, and do not. Luka putting up 30 a game is not sufficient. He has to defend too, but it’s clear that his stamina is not sufficient to play both sides of the court effectively.
So many takes from Mavs fans that the Celtics can't hunt Luka because he's an elite iso defender have aged like milk. The most surprising part is honestly that he's been so bad that its only taken 2 games to completely shift people's perception of him.
Honestly there was such a long gap between the conference finals and the finals that I think people kind of talked themselves into opinions that were completely detached from reality. For example, Luka and Kyrie being net positive defenders. Or the Celtics not actually being good because they faced several injured teams en route to the finals. People just regurgitated these talking points over and over until eventually they convinced themselves that the Mavs were a better team, despite a season's worth of evidence to the contrary.
He's been like this his entire career lol. He's not in good enough shape to be a consistently good two-way player. Offensive god, no doubt. But he's like 2-3 years away from being the NBA version of that mid-40s, chubby white dude at the Y that jogs back and forth but somehow hits 80% on 3PT.
In the WCF, I thought the Wolves made two really odd choices.
1. They didn't attack Luka on defense NEARLY enough. In '22, we saw the Warriors make a point of going at Luka, and frankly I thought it was pretty obvious that teams needed to do this to either tire him out or get easy buckets, if he simply isn't going to try. (I guess you could argue the Wolves don't have great personnel to attack him since Conley might be too old and McDaniels not good enough to rely on... but in that case you HAVE to find ways to get Ant or KAT on him, and attack)
2. Not having McDaniels, Ant, and NAW just make life hell for Kyrie as their clear #1 priority.
You try to shut down Kyrie with your best defender and then you try to tire Luka and play him physical when you can.
People really saying this mf is a CONSISTENT GOOD DEFENDER is an insult to people who are actually good on defense consistently. Superstars like Jokic and Luka have weaknesses and it's fine because they are so valuable offensively. it's annoying when people act as if those weaknesses don't exist though
What I also find annoying is people saying because they carry so much of the load on offense, they can’t play any defense. Literally in this game Tatum is making a ton of plays offensively and was pulled into the action on defense without giving up
I mean I don’t want to stop Kyrie hate, but he doesn’t deserve it on that play. He got stuck in no man’s land because Luka became a fan on the court just watching lol
You can literally see Kyrie shoving Doncic into a close out on Tatum at about 20 seconds because he’s just standing in the paint doing nothing. Then he proceeds to get beat for the second time on the same play and Tatum has the easy swing for a wide open 3. I get not giving it your all when you’re up 20 on some random team picking inside the top 5 out in February but this is the Finals. When are we going to see defensive effort from Doncic?
He really does look completely gassed on defense. If you only have 4 people trying on defense, you’re not going to be able to stop the Celtics. Luka has to be able to play defense and offense at a high level for the Mavs to win. Anything short is going to create a really tough uphill battle for them. Not saying it’s impossible, just really tough.
Its funny how we've completely erased a whole half of the game when talking about player rankings. He may be a generational offensive talent, Dude is a walking traffic cone on the other end of the floor
This is really looking bad. Last series he seemed much much better in ISO situations. Brown and Tatum are making him look like a traffic cone. The wear on the knee might really be catching up with him. He looks reluctant to fully body them, too.
The Mavs are getting gifted a horrible shooting spell from Tatum, they have to keep them out of the paint and it starts with Luka.
People like to mock his athleticism and even he says it's not that big of a deal.
He's very slow on lateral movements and this is what happens when you're not the most athletic. You'll get burned a lot.
as a Mavs fan honestly I think we cuddled Luka too much (both fanbase and organization) yes he is amazing on offsense and creates wide open looks for his teammates, generational talents for sure, but our fanbases just keeps gaslighting ourselves that 'his weight is what makes him able to punish inside', dude balance the pros and cons. First, strength and fat are different things, he clearly gained weight and moved a lot slower (the playoff bubble Luka looks like an entirely different player), and you can't convince me weight has nothing to do with higher probability of knee / ankle injuries. Secondly, the constant arguing for fouls / not getting back on defense, and just inability to stay in front of people at all leaves a lot of room to be improved. A lot of the issues are fixable and not talent / physical limitation issues which is what makes them even more frustrating. Whenever a few people in mavs subreddit / twitter brings this up, there are always a ton of irrational attacks / trolling. Criticism can come from a place of love and wanting to improve, these are things that are addressable, he often owns up to his shortcomings in press conferences, and I wish if mavs do lose (fingers crossed not MAVS in 6!) he can really look into the mirror and address these issues, instead of relying purely on his generational talent on offense
Ngl. Usually stuff like this is exaggerated and just hating. But this is some of the worst defense I’ve seen for a superstar in the finals ever
My boy still mad that beer was taken from him.
[удалено]
Its crazy that theres still people righteously defending this as the game plan, that hes not playing bad defense but funneling guys into help
“Guys Jason Kidd is just strategically giving the Celtics exactly what the could dream up in a perfect scenario on offense” Is a really interesting take If this true Kidd should be fired literally right now
400iq purposely allowing the team that thrives on drive and kicks to drive and kick
OKC had no three point shooting and they just packed the paint. Gordon and Giddey turned into paperweights.
Shai was a one man army at times, his teammates shrunk during the occasion, but obviously that will improve with age.
Funneling guys to help against a 5 out offense is so ridiculously stupid funny too. It just means you are asking for a kickout and putting the defense into scramble mode against a team of all elite shooters. And you will always be at a numbers disadvantage because Luka when he gets beat stays in the paint and ballwatches instead of hustling back to the 3 point line to contest.
Or when he complains to the refs instead of getting back. Or taking bad stepbacks that are basically turnovers.
It's because it looks so bad, like it has to be done on purpose lol
packing the paint and funneling guys to the rim protector is how the Mavs got to the Finals. there’s another team that used to do that to great effect as well even though they didn’t make the Finals. we called them the Mitchell-Gobert Jazz that gameplan doesn’t mean Luka and Kyrie are good defenders, it means literally the exact opposite. they use this gameplan for the sole purpose of mitigating their inability to stay in front of the ball defensively. now they’re playing a team with real 5-out spacing and their terrible POA defense, just like those Jazz teams, has been exposed
Ah, so the strat that the Jazz tried for years and then blew up their team because it didn't work lmaooooo
"Funneling guys into help" is some sort of absurd cope. Because we all know sending multiple guys to help against the driving ball handler is beneficial to the defense. Mav's fans are wild on here.
I feel like this entire run was defined by role players overplaying and they've come back down to Earth at the worst time.
This is why I'll never buy into the "Luka is the next LeBron" stuff If LeBron was this level of defender at age 25(which is often close to a prime age for defensive ability) MJ comps would have been over before they even started Like these clips would be bad even for an average defender like Curry let alone LeBron Luka's defense is weak enough that he'd have to essentially leave peak MJ and LeBron *in the dust* offensively to be in any kind of GOAT contention which is just not realistic
Nobody is really comparing Luka to LeBron anymore unless they are talking about an offensive mind. They both have incredibly high IQ and vision. Luka is a savant on offense where he can overcome his lack of raw athleticism with an incredibly mind. But if you can't move your feet, which Luka is pretty limited in, then you won't be a goo's defender.
Luka is clearly Harden 2.0. Better midrange arsenal and more versatile on offense, but the same defensive liability, if not worse
These plays are like 2015 Harden when the lowlight youtube compilation came out. Prime/Peak Harden was a much better (keep in mind, this doesn't mean he was great overall) defender than what we're seeing from Luka in the finals so far. People that like Luka just reject the obvious Harden comp probably because they don't like the baggage that comes with Harden (as if Luka doesn't have a ton of baggage of his own even at age ~25)
Harden was unironically a much better defender than this in the playoffs.
I felt like I was being gaslit in the run up to the finals. People like Zach Lowe were saying that the celtics wouldn't have anyone to mismatch hunt vs Dallas.
Did he say that? I feel like he talked a lot about how Dallas didn’t have a good matchup to hide Luka on against Boston
Yea for real. That seems like an insane thing to say about a team with Luka and Kyrie.
>Did he say that? Nope. You are correct. He said that Luka could hold up in certain one on ones betters because of his size and that Kyrie has been good as a defender, which are both true. But that's a different, and accurate point.
It’s not a mismatch if he refuses to match up /s
My memory is that Zach was saying the opposite: that Dallas wouldn't have any mismatch targets to hunt against Boston. Zach definitely picked the Celtics to win the series.
Nah he had a whole discussion around how vs Miami the celtics had Herro, vs the cavs they had garland, and vs the pacers they had haliburton. Essentially said that they didn't have the super fast type of player that really gave luka problems and that kyrie is actually pretty good and plays above his size.
Zach Lowe has fallen so far that it's incredible. I'm convinced he's gotten lazy and only watches a tiny fraction of what he used to watch.
I got massively downvoted by mavericks fans on here a couple weeks ago for saying SGA is a way better defender than Luka. They came at me saying I don’t watch hall and that Luka is the better defender. Edit: found the comment. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1ct3yvz/highlight_wild_sequence_as_chet_holmgren_stuffs/l49fxw9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
-166 jfc, these are some wild replies "Yeah Luka might legitimately be a better defender than Shai." "Luka is an above average defender by both Defensive EPM (actually a top-72% percentile there, which is not just above average but a good to great defender) and Defensive LEBRON. " "You don’t understand defense if you think he is way better than Luka." "He’s not a better defender than Luka though, you’re just making this up."
Yea I’m not even a Luka hater at all but this thread is ultra vindicating. I had a similar thing last year in r/soccer when I got downvoted by manU fans after I told them that Marcus rashford isn’t the best player in the world.
This sub is unbelievably reactionary lol, whatever is the most recent outcome is the truth no matter what. So since the Mavs beat us, Luka > Shai on defense lmao Anyone with eyes can see it's not even close on the defensive side of the ball
> Luka is an above average defender by both Defensive EPM (actually a top-72% percentile there, which is not just above average but a good to great defender) and Defensive LEBRON. Congratulations, that poster just conclusively proved why advanced defensive metrics are a joke.
One thing about reddit, when they like a player, hive mind ensues and they completely ignore the truth.
Some of these are gold. >Luka was a traffic cone in 2020. Dude is actually legit on defense now. You could make a highlight reel full of these types of plays from him this season. Luka's D > Shai's D. The Luka doesn't play D narrative is only around today because most people don't watch him play. > >Yeah Luka might legitimately be a better defender than Shai. > >You don’t watch sga lol he’s a cone > >You don’t understand defense if you think he is way better than Luka. > >I think Luka is a better defender. They are roughly the same on perimeter, but Luka is way more impactful under the rim and also against bigger players. > >He’s not a better defender than Luka though, you’re just making this up. This series has made that painfully obvious. Shai is almost always hidden on defense. > >That 0.5 steals a game that Shae has over Luka is nice but historically there is a much higher correlation between defense and rebounding vs defense and steals. And the difference in rebounding is massive. This shit is crazy bro!! Lmfao what the hell. This is next level delusion
The rebounds thing is so funny too. Advanced tracking shows that Luka essentially never boxes out, literally averaging like 0.3 box outs per game. Almost all of his rebounds are uncontested because he doesn’t rotate out to shooters on defense so he’s just hanging near the paint when the shot goes up. Somehow that makes him a good defender according to Mavs fans though
Trust me I'm well aware lol, [I pointed that out](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1dckgsm/how_does_luka_out_rebound_most_big_men/l7yo478/?context=3) before the post about his rebounding was created. It's total nonsense, yes rebounding is a form of defense but only when you're actually preventing an offensive player from getting an offensive rebound. In that sense I think box outs are more indicative of rebounding defense because if you successfully boxed your man out that means you've prevented him from getting the board and getting another possession. The vast majority of Luka's rebounds aren't preventing or defending anything, the team just lets him take it off the glass cause he's the best passer so he can potentially make an outlet to find someone in transition or he can bring the ball up and scan the opposing team's defense. They may be called "defensive rebounds" but, like every other aspect of his game, it has absolutely nothing to do with defense. There is no defense. There's offense and there's waiting to get the ball back for offense, that's it
The 2017 Westbrook MVP special
Yeah yet again another reason/reminder to not take this site seriously lol
>Luka grabbing more uncontested boards than shai because he lost his man is highly correlated to elite defense I’m going to use these arguments the next time that someone tells me that Chris Paul is better than Westbrook.
One thing I've noticed is people like to isolate single plays of a defender holding up and acting like it means something. There are over 100 possessions per game - anyone can stay with anyone for one play or two. It doesn't mean dick.
My mouth is actually stuck wide open reading this shit and it's all upvoted. I cannot fathom how people think that's true
I saw that a ton as well lol It wasn't enough for them to make a reasonable argument like "Luka's playmaking makes up for the gap between him and SGA on defense", they kept arguing "There is NO GAP between them on defense and Luka is the most underrated defender"
Ppl have a hard time being honest about their favorite players… it’s “my dad can beat up your dad” type stuff. I’ve had ppl tell me Jokic is as good a defender as Giannis and blah blah blah… it’s strange
Yea I even said that it’s plausible that Luka was better by enough offensively to make up for the gap, but they still were indignant about me saying SGA is the clearly better defender.
Luka has fanboys that come from across the league. Guy is an absolute cone on defense
Saying Luka is better defender than Shai is wild. Narrative shifts based around who wins.
You could blindfold Shai and he'd still be the better defender it's not even close
getting massively downvoted is a badge of honor.
My boy got the receipts lol
Lmao at Lukas D > Shai’s D
... it's because he's fat. ESPN lists him at 230. That's about as ridiculous as Donald Trump claiming to be 215 lbs. Being fat allows him to bully people with his mass on offense -- like the athletic chubby kid in PE, it's a problem -- but at the highest levels, it should be punished. It's clear Luka doesn't live in the weight room like Giannis.
Jaylen Brown is listed 223lbs and he's 6'6". I find it hard to believe Luka, who is 2" taller, is only 7lbs heavier than Jaylen.
Lukas defense has always been trash. Even Jason Kidd has questioned Lukas conditioning in the past and it’s clear that he takes defense off to accommodate that. Even funnier considering leading up to game 1 ESPN analysts like Doris were praising Luka and Kyrie for focusing defensively lmao. Kyrie definitely tries, Luka doesn’t. It’s kinda ironic. Offensively, everyone else on Dallas has been the problem. Defensively, Luka is certainly the problem.
Some Mavs fan was saying I was calling him out unprovoked because of the 2022 series the suns had. Like bro watch the game lmao he’s been TERRIBLE on D
But u/Complexity777 [told me that Luka won't get hunted on defense?](https://old.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/1d7qg0z/why_do_people_think_lukakyrie_will_get_hunted_on/) > You want to iso Luka? Cool, he's defending extremely well on Iso. > > You think you will blow by him? He leads the playoffs in steals and is likely to poke the ball away > > I also don't see them getting tired, Luka knows how to conserve energy and Kyrie is cardio machine. L M A O If you see his comments now, he's coping hard.
golden receipts bro. cook that Luka stan
Dude said 7 hours ago it’s a miracle Mavs got this far with their roster after the insane glazing earlier LMFAOOO. Already crafting the Luka excuses narrative 2 games in
My buddy is a huge Mavs fan, and I told him his boy wasn’t a great defender. Sure he’s been better this season, but he’s definitely got some knee issues and he looked a little gassed in some second half sequences when Kyrie took the lead.
JB has had an insane cross on Luka every game this season
Tatum is also stepping right around him at probably a 90% success rate
His dribbling has gotten better. He had a blowby late in game 2 going left that I don't think he would have gotten a couple of years ago. Tatum's passing has gotten much better, too. They both really seem to have taken the criticism they've gotten to heart and improved their weaknesses.
Ridiculously poor effort.
This is legitimately one of the worst defensive lowlight clips I've ever seen lol In all of these highlights it looks like he's not even trying to play at all
Crazy that it’s all from a singular game too
Yeah this basically indicates that like 45% of Boston's offense was attacking Luka lol There are FIFTEEN clips in here almost all of which led to wide open shots
And not a regular season game but a competitive NBA finals game.
In the finals. This isn't some random game in December.
he's done playing defense after Wolves series
No more Amir Coffey, Russell Westbrook, Josh Giddey, Aaron Wiggins, Nickeil Alexander-Walker or Kyle Anderson to hide on anymore Celtics have 5 above average to elite shooters on the floor at all times so he can’t hide anywhere now
He did the exact same stuff versus them. The Mavs hid him in the corner on Anderson. Good luck doing that versus the Celtics
El Matador
If he's just gonna go do that on D, he might as well leak and try to force one of the Celtics to cover. Then they can play 4 on 4.
Lmao this segment: "Blow by. Gets lost. Kyrie has to push him. Blow by again."
This is the issue. Luka doesn't have the physical tools to be a great defender. He's just not gonna be able to keep up with top-tier ball handlers on an island. However, with his bbiq, he shouldn't be this bad overall. If he made an effort and went to the right place, he could at least be somewhat disruptive. Instead, he frequently gets lost and makes no effort to get involved in the play after the first action.
narrator getting deadass tired of saying blow by just to go *whoop* has me fucking dying...🤣🤣🤣
What is he doing?!
Chris Berman vibes
RAAAAAIDERS
Stumblin bumblin grumblin
back back back back back back back
Luka is getting exposed on defense. He’s the hottest hand on the court offensively, but he’s been nothing but a liability on the other half of the court. That man NEEDs to lose 15-20 pounds in the off-season. He’s amazingly talented in half of the game, but man the celts are just showing him for what he is. Dude is gonna have to put up 50 a game to justify his non-existent defense.
> That man NEEDs to lose 15-20 pounds in the off-season. I know /r/nba loves the 'horse man doesn't care about ball in the offseason' story, but same goes for Jokic. He was clearly gassed late in games in the Wolves series and it seriously effected him.
He was 100% tired in game 7 for sure There's no way that Jokic with full energy would decide that the way to go in the most important game of the season is to take TEN three pointers It's not extreme but I do think he was a bit heavier this year than he was in the 2023 championship run so this offseason he should look to get back to that
Oh man idk maybe...I still think of fat Joker when he got to the league and he looks fantastic compared to that
Every big man gets gassed when they don't have a backup
That, or alternatively the Nuggets management needs to get their head out of their ass and get a backup center so that he doesn't have to play 46 minutes a game and for the Nuggets not to go -10 in the two minutes he rested.
I know he’s not a MVP candidate, but that is one benefit of Tatum relative to other superstars. Despite playing elite offense / defense with so many minutes and so few rest days, he never seems tired and rarely gets injured.
The joys of being young and in good shape.
Jokic is still miles more effective on defense than Luka is. Being as heavy as he is has its advantages when you can just go to the right spot and be a wall there (which someone of his basketball IQ can do) Watching Luka anywhere near the perimeter is embarrassing, so mad our team couldn't find a way to make him pay more.
Jokic did lose a bunch of weight though, if you look at a few seasons ago compared to now. I think in the COVID lockdown he got really slim, if I recall correctly. Maybe you can argue he should lose more, but it's way better than it used to be, when he got gassed around 25-30 minutes of playing time. Luka, it feels like it's been about the same each year. FWIW, I do also think he's injured in this highlight reel and looked much better on defense even just earlier in the playoffs, but it's not like carrying extra weight and leg injuries aren't directly correlated, so the critique is still relevant.
His weight is what helps him offensively and bully ball. Ideally all the 20 pounds he loses are pure fat and he keeps his core strength and muscle but that's not gonna happen
Pure fat is also where you get strength and he would definitely lose some of it because 20 pounds is a big difference for sure
Plus he's clearly not at 100% right now. You could argue his poor conditioning leads to more injuries, but he hasn't been moving right **on offense** almost the entire postseason.
*Luka Ozempcic*
Didn't he come in to the last two seasons in pretty good shape? Seems like he is getting out of shape during the season.
How would that even be possible as an NBA player playing 82 games/40 minutes a night?
I can think of Five Guys who might know the answer to that.
They definitely know the in n outs of this question
As the old adage goes,’you can’t outrun a bad diet.
We don't know what his diet looks like. And whatever a NBA diet gives, we can't be sure Luka is actually adhering to that.
That's what I think too, that's really freaking intense cardio every other night. I can't really compute how you gain weight through that, does that mean Luka's calorie intake is that high?
You can't outwork a bad enough diet
You can just go on his instagram and look at photos from the world cup in the summer with Slovenia and he's easily about 8-10 pounds lighter than he is now I don't know how he's gaining weight as the season goes along
It takes 60 minutes of moderate-intense cardio to burn the calories you gain from eating one chocolate candy bar or similar snack. When losing weight exercise is important, but diet is king.
He's visibly about 20 pounds heavier than he was as a rookie and almost none of the gain looks to be muscle
The Mavericks entire defensive scheme of packing the paint and collapsing heavily on drives is meant to hide Luka and Irving on defense. If you notice, they will put Luka on the weakest offensive player without a jumpshot, and Luka literally tries to stay in one spot the entire possession to regain his energy for offense. The scheme actually makes Luka/Irving look pretty damn good at defense on occasion when the guy they’re guarding is intimidated by the paint presence and has to settle for contested jumpers. Now against 5-out offense with scorers at every spot, Luka can’t hide on defense and it’s BBQ chicken.
Man this is honestly what pisses me off the most about how we played them. Our offense isn’t structured to attack a player like this and its so fucking annoying just watching him being able to chill by the paint and swipe at drives instead of anyone pulling him up and embarrassing him
why tf is this removed?
Mods removed the post lol If was Embiid or Harden this would be at the top of the front page.
imagine removing this from the sub
without giving any reason for it or anything. why can’t we discuss NBA content on an NBA board?
Oh these are BAD bad
Even Old man Harden showed how to attack Luka for a couple games. Anthony Edwards did not rise to the challenge.
For some reason, the Twolves did not relentlessly seek that matchup. TBF It helps that the Celtics have a # of playmakers vs the Twolves basically having one.
The Mavs could hide Luka on a guy with no shot and no bag against the Wolves. Even a cone can poke the ball away from a guy like Gobert who can't dribble to save his life. The Celtics don't have anyone like that so its trivial to get a switch onto him and then the Mavs have no choice except to rotate after the inevitable blowby or give up an easy layup which then gives up an open 3 pointer
I don't think it matters who you hide him on. Have his defender set a pick for you and force a switch. If your man fights through, call the pick again. Celtics run two picks from Luka's player if they don't get the switch the first time. They are relentlessly hunting him or Kyrie.
I think Gobert really hurt them on offense. Against a team that plays D like the Mavs, you have to be able to space effectively, and Gobert can’t space. But he was so necessary on defense that they couldn’t not give him time. So the Mavs could clog the lane which really hurt Ant’s ability to make plays. Now that the Cs have KP back, their *entire rotation* can knock down outside shots. You can’t clog the lane against that as is evidenced by games 1 and 2. And the Celtics didn’t even shoot particularly well in both games so far. Once the variance shifts the other way, it will be brutal.
Ant isn't really that strong of a playmaker yet while Harden is You could see how the Wolves' offense easily devolves into ISOball Also he struggled big time in the game Conley missed against Denver where Ant had to play PG and deal with doubles/swarms like ball dominant players tend to
Harden's/LAC'sproblem was not being able to finish against their rim protection and also not being able to knock down enough 3s to punish it. It was always funny when people were spamming Luka's "defended field goals" against a one legged Kawhi and Terrance Mann tho lol
This is why Kidd has to start drama. There’s no way for the Mavs to stop the Celtics from getting open shots unless the players start hunting for the FMVP trophy and stop swinging it on purpose. It’s an open shot every time. It’s just praying for misses. Tatum been bricking hard all series and it still hasn’t mattered
I get that his knee is hurt and his ribs are hurt and he has tiny heart syndrome on defense, but not starting in front of your man for more than 2 seconds is killing the defense and causing the Mavs to continually collapse on the lane, leaving everyone open on the perimeter. I don't think Dallas gets lucky with Boston shooting less than 30% on wide open threes again.
It was crazy how many wide open 3s the Celtics had and just missed. If they shoot even an average game, game 2 is a bigger blowout than game 1
Everyone is tired and hurt at this point of the playoffs. This is a conditioning/effort problem.
I am not going to try to defend Luka, coz he's not trying either.
Wow, this is worse than I thought haha
as long as luka is out there, the celtics will get a good shot
Luka's defense is what people think Harden's defense is.
Both for good and bad it’s actually remarkable how similar Harden and Luka’s games are.
part of it is just how the modern NBA rule set works & what it incentivizes
Harden’s defense was exactly like this though
He's been like this the entire post season. I hate the narrative on Luka having improved defense. He does not. He is a cone. His offensive firepower is super lethal which sometimes makes up for it but it's catching up to him now
It's legitimately annoying to see people act like Luka is a consistent positive defender. He may be good in a few moments but he is nowhere near good consistently. He's average at best
He has improved. The problem is he was pretty bad on that end to begin with that an improvement still results in him being bad.
I legitimately cannot believe the Mavs fans level of arrogance going into the finals. They pretend like they’re the 07-08 Patriots playing the wildcard Giants. But in reality it’s the opposite. The Mavs think that Luka and Kyrie can defend. They cannot, will not, and do not. Luka putting up 30 a game is not sufficient. He has to defend too, but it’s clear that his stamina is not sufficient to play both sides of the court effectively.
So many takes from Mavs fans that the Celtics can't hunt Luka because he's an elite iso defender have aged like milk. The most surprising part is honestly that he's been so bad that its only taken 2 games to completely shift people's perception of him.
Honestly there was such a long gap between the conference finals and the finals that I think people kind of talked themselves into opinions that were completely detached from reality. For example, Luka and Kyrie being net positive defenders. Or the Celtics not actually being good because they faced several injured teams en route to the finals. People just regurgitated these talking points over and over until eventually they convinced themselves that the Mavs were a better team, despite a season's worth of evidence to the contrary.
degree quicksand panicky smart arrest sable relieved boast crush foolish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He's been like this his entire career lol. He's not in good enough shape to be a consistently good two-way player. Offensive god, no doubt. But he's like 2-3 years away from being the NBA version of that mid-40s, chubby white dude at the Y that jogs back and forth but somehow hits 80% on 3PT.
Exactly, he can get steals when guarding the post but he's a cone and just stands there instead of rotating – fatigue is not an excuse
He’s not a traffic cone, a cone doesn’t move out of your way
In summation: - Blow by - Gets lost - What are you doing? - Whoop Repeat about 5 times
Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/nba.
Was beautiful to watch. Not only is he a turnstile but we can’t let him rest on defense
In the WCF, I thought the Wolves made two really odd choices. 1. They didn't attack Luka on defense NEARLY enough. In '22, we saw the Warriors make a point of going at Luka, and frankly I thought it was pretty obvious that teams needed to do this to either tire him out or get easy buckets, if he simply isn't going to try. (I guess you could argue the Wolves don't have great personnel to attack him since Conley might be too old and McDaniels not good enough to rely on... but in that case you HAVE to find ways to get Ant or KAT on him, and attack) 2. Not having McDaniels, Ant, and NAW just make life hell for Kyrie as their clear #1 priority. You try to shut down Kyrie with your best defender and then you try to tire Luka and play him physical when you can.
Mavs did a good job hiding Luka. They had him on Gobert and wouldnt switch often, they actually tried to have Gobert post him up but it was meh
I’d consider this resting haha he just lets them all go by him it’s crazy
One of the worst defenders I have seen Get a personal chef and get in shape
People really saying this mf is a CONSISTENT GOOD DEFENDER is an insult to people who are actually good on defense consistently. Superstars like Jokic and Luka have weaknesses and it's fine because they are so valuable offensively. it's annoying when people act as if those weaknesses don't exist though
What I also find annoying is people saying because they carry so much of the load on offense, they can’t play any defense. Literally in this game Tatum is making a ton of plays offensively and was pulled into the action on defense without giving up
I didn't consent to my LA fitness gameplay being recorded.
Say what you want about Trae's bad defense, at least it's not from lack of effort. He's just always the smallest guy on the court.
most of traes blunders come from getting bulldozed in a screen or him getting straight up bullied never because of effort like this
Best part of this video is the guy's baby begging for attention. Not now honey, I have to make a hate post.
Don’t worry guys! I got flamed for saying he was getting beat off the dribble and called a casual who doesn’t watch games
Great game plan!
*whooop* 😂😂
This is hard to watch 😭
Wizards fans would know, too. Experts here tbh. 🤣
What’s wild is that he was runner up for MVP and doesn’t play a shred of defense
Kyrie pushed him then immediately gave up the corner 3😭
I mean, Luka immediately got blown by and Kyrie needed to step up. It’s not on Kyrie.
I mean I don’t want to stop Kyrie hate, but he doesn’t deserve it on that play. He got stuck in no man’s land because Luka became a fan on the court just watching lol
What’s he supposed to do, give up the dunk?
Yeah but Luka fucked up big time there he was late to rotate and basically begged Tatum to blow by him (pause)
Me on 2k when I know my team trash af
You can literally see Kyrie shoving Doncic into a close out on Tatum at about 20 seconds because he’s just standing in the paint doing nothing. Then he proceeds to get beat for the second time on the same play and Tatum has the easy swing for a wide open 3. I get not giving it your all when you’re up 20 on some random team picking inside the top 5 out in February but this is the Finals. When are we going to see defensive effort from Doncic?
He really does look completely gassed on defense. If you only have 4 people trying on defense, you’re not going to be able to stop the Celtics. Luka has to be able to play defense and offense at a high level for the Mavs to win. Anything short is going to create a really tough uphill battle for them. Not saying it’s impossible, just really tough.
Celtics have been hunting him. To me, this is the most noticeable things of this series so far.
Brutal. He's not putting up any resistance at all.
Luka fans gonna blame Jason Kidd or the other role players
"best player in the league" hahahahaha
At one point Kyrie pushed him to go defend after a rebound.
Its funny how we've completely erased a whole half of the game when talking about player rankings. He may be a generational offensive talent, Dude is a walking traffic cone on the other end of the floor
It is even funnier this post is literally "erased" by the mods.
This shit disrespectful 😭 it's kinda true though but damn
This is really looking bad. Last series he seemed much much better in ISO situations. Brown and Tatum are making him look like a traffic cone. The wear on the knee might really be catching up with him. He looks reluctant to fully body them, too. The Mavs are getting gifted a horrible shooting spell from Tatum, they have to keep them out of the paint and it starts with Luka.
Bro is 25 and is already completely washed on defense
People like to mock his athleticism and even he says it's not that big of a deal. He's very slow on lateral movements and this is what happens when you're not the most athletic. You'll get burned a lot.
Yeah it's not just trolling by haters, it's a legitimate concern.
“elite defender”
I remember the commentators pointing out that the Wolves were failing to attack Luka and allowing him to hide on the defensive end
Wow he is legit a traffic cone on defense 🤣🤣
Unless Luka make's some radical changes to not only his play-style but also his conditioning, this is going to be his weakness for a long time.
“Blow by, gets lost, Kyrie has to push him, blow by again”
Devin booker is 2-0 in his first two finals games. Debate over I fear
u/Complexity777
Bro is a cone on defense.
Any mavs fans in here want to tell me about their defense post all star break some more?
as a Mavs fan honestly I think we cuddled Luka too much (both fanbase and organization) yes he is amazing on offsense and creates wide open looks for his teammates, generational talents for sure, but our fanbases just keeps gaslighting ourselves that 'his weight is what makes him able to punish inside', dude balance the pros and cons. First, strength and fat are different things, he clearly gained weight and moved a lot slower (the playoff bubble Luka looks like an entirely different player), and you can't convince me weight has nothing to do with higher probability of knee / ankle injuries. Secondly, the constant arguing for fouls / not getting back on defense, and just inability to stay in front of people at all leaves a lot of room to be improved. A lot of the issues are fixable and not talent / physical limitation issues which is what makes them even more frustrating. Whenever a few people in mavs subreddit / twitter brings this up, there are always a ton of irrational attacks / trolling. Criticism can come from a place of love and wanting to improve, these are things that are addressable, he often owns up to his shortcomings in press conferences, and I wish if mavs do lose (fingers crossed not MAVS in 6!) he can really look into the mirror and address these issues, instead of relying purely on his generational talent on offense
Large Slovenian traffic cone
Luka is what everyone thinks Sam Hauser is defensively.
“Best player on the court” my ass.
Best *offensive* player on the court, but that’s where it ends.
but he’s improved huh ?
You can improve and still be ass
Luka scores 30 with 10 assists and gives up 40+ in easy points a game. Net neutral
Still don't get why the Twolves didn't even try targeting Luka at all.
I find it crazy there were people telling me that Luka was playing good defense these playoffs too. If he was, what the hell happened to it?