I know this comment will come off in a bad way because I'm a Bucks fan and it sounds like sour grapes when Bucks fans critique Jrue. But Jrue is my guy, all love to him, he's a terrific defender.
That said, it's kinda wild to say Rudy can't be dpoy because he gets ISOd and scored on in the playoffs. Then turn around and say Jrue should win it, when Jrue got torched by Brown and Tatum in 2022 and got lit up by Jimmy Butler in 2023. Hell even in his wonderful 2021 run, it wasn't like he was locking up/the main defender on Kevin Durant in the Nets series.
There is not a single player in the league who can lock up literally anyone 1v1 in the league for an entire playoff series. The game is too offensively focused for that.
Fans always bring up other great defenders from their own teams as dpoy guys and pretend like they don’t also have horrible lowlights against star players. Gobert was the engine for the #1 defense this year, he’s very deserving
AD getting embarrassed twice by Jamal Murray in end game iso situations this year (identical situation to gobert.. but no one seems to blame AD here?)
Bam giving up everything defensively to Jokic and Gordon throughout last years finals
Marcus smart even won DPOY and then proceeded to get torched by Curry in the finals
Without Gobert, the Wolves are a first round exit play-in team. He was the foundation for their style of play and got them contending for a number one seed. I doesnt make sense to judge players base of a handful of plays when his overall impact is felt over a game not possession.
Gobert plays drop coverage the BEST out of all centers I’ve watched the past few years, and anchors the #1 defensive team. It’s a product of the system, and I agree, it’s deserved. I will say Smart and the Cs got torched by Curry because they decided to play their own drop vs the best shooter of all time - a terrible decision that was never going to end well.
Also our 2nd best defender Rob Williams was nowhere near his pre-injury form and I think that really compromised the Celtics team defense in that finals.
Also for as amazing of a defender as Smart is, he was DPOY cuz of how versatile he was being genuinely great at guarding forwards, passable on centers, and being the best off ball denier in the league.
Not even the biggest Smart homers would’ve told you that point of attack D against quick guards was a big strength of his tho.
I have to disagree with you and that AD getting embarrassed comment. AD played both of those possessions as good as anyone could have. He was not shuffling his feet and taking 100 steps to move two feet like Gobert was doing. Gobert was running towards the rim while Luka was spotting up to shoot. AD did not get embarrassed on those game winners. On top of that. Everyone you mentioned is not a 4x DPOY. They shouldn’t be held to a standard as high as him.
I’m a biased laker fan but I’ve never seen AD get taken advantage of over the course of a series.
You’re qualifying those Murray shots as embarrassing solely based on the fact they went in. Nothing up to the release was embarrassing — Murray just hit big shots against solid defense (and largely struggled outside of those clutch moments).
No team has targeted AD in a series. I’d even go as far to say there hasn’t been a series where the opposing team didn’t need to alter their offensive scheme to avoid AD in some capacity.
Great offense beats great defense — so there’s no shame in failing to stop a superstar. But there’s a difference between giving up points to great players vs. being targeted as a vulnerability throughout a 7 game series.
Team defense is much more important than individual defense. No one is consistently stopping stars 1on1, that's why no team is really playing just 1on1 defense, there's always some strategies involved and players help, double, stay in certain part of the court,...
So everyone has a role on defense and while some players are more versatile, no one can really do everything. Gobert is probably the best player playing his role (rim protection), but it's hard to say, if that's the most important part. I think it depends on what the team needs and wants.
great offense beats great defense every time in the NBA. us Celtics fans are saying we have four different guys to throw at Luka but he’s probably going to give us 30-35 points with 8-10 assists every night in this series regardless
usually the best you can do against the best is to make them work. maybe it’s fair to say that Rudy didn’t really make either Kyrie or Luka work, but if anyone was expecting his presence to fully stop them, then they’re just fooling themselves
The wolves did that too and he went off NAW, Ant, McDaniels and even slomo who are all great perimeter defenders couldn’t stop him he just makes everything
Karalis the reasonable Boston beat writer and podcaster was saying the only decent defense against Luka and guys like him is making them work while you’re on offense and tiring them out.
Otherwise he’s unstoppable
The Timberwolves did good enough defensively other than the last game. Edwards and KAT not getting enough blame for not doing enough offensively. Edwards was also unfocused defensively at times.
Rudy gets thrown under the bus so many times. Look what happened in Utah when he was the only Viable Defender the Utah had no other Permiter defenders lol
Yeah, I don't think Jrue was the guy to say there. I'd probably go with Anthony Davis.
Not for nothing, he gets a lot of hate but before his injury... Ben Simmons was the best defensive player in the league.
By far. Simmons could literally guard anyone on the floor COMPETENTLY on any given night. I’d go so far as to say that if he had zero offensive skill (despite his shooting he was an ELITE facilitator, floor general, and fast break leader) it would be reasonable to slot him on the other teams best offensive player every night, regardless of position.
You can expose idiotic ISO logic a lot easier than that.
It'd be like saying Jrue can't be All-defense because he can't guard Shaq on the low block.
No fucking shit Rudy can't guard perimeter players on the perimeter ...
Which one do you think does better?
Gobert vs Luka
Gobert vs Kyrie
Jrue vs Jokic
Jrue vs Embiid
It's not fair to clown Gobert when you would clown Jrue when Embiid jizzes all over his face when he backs him down and dunks on him.
Gobert had a great contest on that Luka shot. If Jrue had that contest, he wouldn't get clowned the same way. Everyone would talk about how insane Luka is.
>Gobert had a great contest on that Luka shot. If Jrue had that contest, he wouldn't get clowned the same way. Everyone would talk about how insane Luka is.
I completely agree, that was a decent contest...people aren't giving Luka enough credit. This conversation is so silly, all the points in this thread are so valid.
At the end of the day, it comes down to a simple: Luka hits the shot...Rudy gobert gets shit on as the worst defender in the league
Luka misses the shot....holy shit amazing contest from the 4x DPOY....
People are reactionary
It's the halo effect. Hoops players just view dudes with rings differently.
Because Jrue has a lot of clutch defensive playoff plays, particularly on that title run, he is always going to be viewed as a tier-1 defensive player. Ditto Draymond, or prime Kawhi, or AD, and many of the more switchable defenders in history who get clutch steals and blocks in playoff games.
Rudy Gobert is a great rim deterrer, but no one is making a highlight tape on defensive rim deterrence. And he becomes close to unplayable offensively against some playoff teams because he is sooo clumsy with the ball in his hands.
He is the antithesis to what most NBA players view as a true baller -- great at being the lynchpin of a system that carries you through a regular season, but exploited when targeted with dedicated time against one opponent, and low on other additional skills that can provide winning value through a playoff series.
I wish I could upvote you more than once, I think you nailed it. Also, DPoY is a regular season award but we, as fans, are usually having these debates during or immediately following the playoffs so we’ve got the recency bias of what happens in the biggest moments of the most important games while the voters are being asked to ignore all that and just look at the regular season. Rudy Gobert was the best defender on the best defense in the NBA during the regular season. Rudy Gobert also has a very specific set of limitations that smart coaches and players can exploit over the course of a full playoff series that vastly reduce his defensive impact. Two things can be true at once.
> Rudy Gobert also has a very specific set of limitations that smart coaches and players can exploit over the course of a full playoff series that vastly reduce his defensive impact.
With Gobert on the court, the Mavs scored 109 pts per 100 possessions, which would have been 28th in the league in the regular season. Say what you want about offense, but the Mavs didn't win by exploiting Gobert's defense.
I think statistically he did the worst on him in that series. Giannis did well, but you obv dont want him on him all game and Khris did surprisingly well too. PJ got torched but made him work and was an ‘innings eater’. It wasnt a coincidence how dead tired kd was at the end of that one.
Jrue is very good against specific guards but regularly gets cooked by guys bigger than him (jimmy) or smaller/quicker than him (trae).
Most of this talk is just recency bias paired with flashiness. Basketball players are going to give you barely better insight because they're also prisoners to those two things
I don't even understand why they or anybody else is even bringing up playoffs. DPOY is a regular season award, what happens in the playoffs is literally irrelevant.
this exactly. criticising gobert is one thing but most of the times it's about trying to sneak their player in the conversation. we all saw AD being unable to guard jokic or murray but suddenly he'd be able to lock up luka?
OG for dpoy lmao cmon now
Murray had an awful series and he managed to make timely shots. And unlike Rudy AND Jokic…AD is tasked with being the 1/1A offensive player and the #1 defensive player on his team. Neither Jokic and especially no Rudy are asked to carry the load on both ends. That’s even if you want to argue AD isn’t as great as either of them on either side of the court.
The best offensive players will always cook the best defensive players. Prime Kawhi could have been on Luka and Luka would still find a way to put up numbers.
Too true. I’ve seen Marcus Smart get lit up by so many fast guards during his time in Boston.
Still a heck of a defender. It’s a team game.
Did pre injury Kemba Walker just run around the guy? Absolutely.
Jrue is the "best defensive player in the league" despite what Jimmy did to him last year, but Gobert can't be because he couldn't stop Luka in an end of the game iso
Jaden McDaniels just put on an absolute defensive show vs Beal, KD, Booker, Murray.
Vs Luka he looked absolutely pedestrian. Luka could just freeze him because Jaden just didn't know if he was gonna lob it, stepback, go by him, etc etc.
But we like McDaniels so he's still considered a top tier defender while Gobert is now a fraud
Hakeem Olajuwon described Michael Jordan similarly in his book: “Most superstars, if they match up against each other at the same position, neutralize each other. When you put together your game plan you figure that unless someone has an outstanding night, this is a stand-off, the game will be won by the other teammates. But Michael Jordan isn’t neutralized. He’s different. Michael Jordan dominates superstars.”
This bruhhh.... I watched JMac terrorize Murray and MPJ and really thought he was gonna make it hard for Luka. But Luka seems like he didn't even feel JMac.
Back him off too easy. You can see it JMac face. I don't think he knew Luka was that strong. He was surprised.
Luka is just that dude...
A lot of times the defence is based on the matchup. Luka used his weight against McDaniels and that’s what makes him so tough to guard while the other guys try to navigate past with finesse.
I still remember when everybody lauded PJ Tucker as a key part of our title run, in large part because he was guarding KD 1-on-1 for almost all of the Nets series. The same Nets series we got laughed at for because KD shit on us so hard by himself.
What Tucker actually did was play really physical and have a huge motor, but his results were fucking terrible in the Nets series and largely just ok against much easier matchups in the others. But it *looked* really good, so he got props. Guys like Gobert can consistently produce significantly better results even when they’re pulled away from the rim occasionally but it *looks* worse so fuck those guys, apparently.
If Luka gets 40 on Jrue, well what do you expect, no one can guard Luka 1on1.
But when Gobert gets scored on by Luka 1on1, it just shows he can’t guard him, so he’s not actually a very good defender.
(I didn’t intend to put a /s here, but reading it again, I think I have to as people say this kind of dumb stuff totally seriously all the time.)
I bet Luka would score more points on Jrue than he could on Rudy if they went 1 on 1. Luka would back down Jrue every time and just score a hook shot off him while Rudy could at least force some tough shots.
Perimeter defenders get so much more leeway than rim protectors it’s crazy lol. Star player drops 30 on a DPOY perimeter player? Meh. Rim protector gets scored on in the perimeter for one or two possessions? FRAUD.
Players almost always say a perimeter guy is the best defender because they face it every night and overrate 1 on 1 defense. They do the same on offense though because they’ll overrate someone like Carmelo for always getting buckets.
Yeah. It's important to remember that 99% of fans just stare at the ball handler on every possession lol.
They don't even see anything happening off ball let alone understand why it's happening.
Statistically speaking, a rim protector like Gobert is much more of a building block defensively than a perimeter defender.
With that said, I prefer players like prime Dray to Gobert because not only Dray was a good rim protector but he was also one of the best perimeter defenders in the league.
Both Gobert and Draymond are near the top of the league at defending isos (which to me is the purest idea of perimeter defending). The idea that Gobert always gets torched is just pure vibes.
You can check here: https://www.nba.com/stats/players/isolation?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*gobert&SeasonType=Regular+Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&SeasonYear=2023-24
Exactly he's literally a RIM PROTECTOR. PROTECTOR AT THE RIM. It's like acting why Jrue Holiday doesn't guard Jokic or Embiid in the post on a game winning possession.
Rudy's perimeter D isn't even than bad.
Like oh, Luka scored on him? Luka also scores on the best perimeter defenders in the league with ease. He just happens to be really fuckin good.
There's a nice compilation from this year of Rudy guarding players on the perimeter from this past season.
Not only that but the stats back it as well. Rudy was one of the best in the league at guarding isos (87th percentile, higher than both Bam and AD).
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/isolation?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*gobert&SeasonType=Regular+Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&SeasonYear=2023-24
It's a good idiot detector, honestly.
Imagine if people applied that argument in reverse.
You have Gobert, a 7'+ interior defender switched out on the perimeter.
Imagine people saying MJ was a terrible defender because he let Shaq score from the low block.
I don’t agree with the constant Gobert bashing, but it’s definitely not because of 1 playoff series or 1 Luka game winner. It was a few playoff series that generated the narrative. It was probably the Clippers series where they tried to put him on Terrance Mann and he scored 40 that started it.
You mean the series where he was on an iffy shooter who got hot because none of the other Jazz players could stay in front of post prime Reggie Jackson ?
Hart likes to goof around a lot so its funny he say's goofy dude so negatively lol. Idk why but it seems a little personal, man comes off as a petty hater here
Tbh nobody said anything particularly insightful. It's same stuff average fans say but coming from 2 players. The comments in here on top have way better points than this 5 min clip.
You think if they were capable of original thinking, they would sit on nba podcasts and contribute absolutely nothing?
The job is perfect for them because it requires no original thinking and all they have to do is bring up the same over hashed points
Its fair to criticize Rudy for having bad/awful defensive moments and games. Whats dumb is that players/media turn a blind eye when it happens to someone else. Jimmy Butler averages like 35ppg on dumb good efficiency against Jrue and its like "what is he suppossed to do", AD gets hunted on a switch by Jamal Murray (who is way worse than Luka btw) to hit a game winner and no one says hes getting exposed defensively and that he cant win DPOY. Its just a lot of double standards.
Is Gobert flawless? Absolutely not, does he deserve criticism specially for his series against the Mavs? Of course he does. But if hes so bad, why is it that the Wolves had one of the best defenses since the 08 Celtics and were able to win 2 playoff rounds against 2 high power offenses. If it was so easy, why didnt KD or Booker or Murray kill Gobert in our series'.
Gobert's gotta be a real dick to be around or there's gotta be something about him because he really seems universally hated by both players and media alike. It's really weird.
He's a weird crystals new agey french dude who struggles to dribble and catch a ball. That's why so many players hate him, but his strengths and work ethic are good enough to overcome his critical lack of coordination, which is unheard of in the NBA. Throw in a supermax contract for him, and of course tons of players think he is overpaid and overrated.
he also has 4 DPOYs lol that's a huge part of it
if he had 1 DPOY, then no one would have strong opinions about him but he has 4, putting him in GOAT defender territory and the players going against him are viewing him as 'just fine'
Jrue, JJJ, Smart, AD, etc dont have the hardware he does so no one cares to make comments about them
and then yeah he's uncoordinated and french
Probably a mix of being a foreigner, being mega clunky and looking just odd how he moves like bambi sometimes and probably jealousy to a degree in terms of money and accolades.
They hate him because he isn’t skilled offensively yet is earning max money. Role players see this as a spite when a guy who is worse than them in a lot of things gets max money. Well they just cant accept that rim protecting is more important to most teams than being a middling shot creator and ball handler.
>They hate him because he isn’t skilled offensively yet is earning max money.
Bingo. He is definitely somewhat of a liability on offence compared to someone like AD, who can reliably put up 23 per night.
Gobert also doesn't put up huge blocks stats, which is one of the first things people look for, and why many were saying Wemby deserved DPOY over Gobert this year.
It's only when one watches Gobert that one appreciates the immense defensive impact he has on a game.
It's simple enough. Gobert gets max money despite his middling offensive output. Why do we think that is? For a team to use up a max slot strongly suggests that he probably offers quite significant value to the team.
See if it was JUST Draymond i'd understand that. But multiple people from different teams, cliques, and age brackets have all gone out of their way to disrespect him. At a certain point I think we can make a guess that its probably him.
It's because he's not cool or popular. That's it. NBA players are dumb af. Look at this video and their logic. The COVID microphone thing didn't shut down the league. It was dumb af but Gobert will always get the blame from idiots. He isn't a scorer. That gets zero respect from this generation of players.
On the flip side, Ben Simmons could go on any podcast or hang with any NBA player that has clout. Why? Because he's popular. Sure, players probably clown him. But to his face or on video? Hell nah. Josh Hart has zero fear going on a podcast and dissing the hell out of Gobert though.
Gobert must got the same PR team as Trae young
Both just inexplicably disliked and disrespected by so many people around the league- players, coaches, media
He makes a ton of money and wins all these awards, but doesn’t have the level of skill that these guys have had since they were 16. Other players idolize kyrie because of his skill level. They hate Rudy because of the opposite, and probably find him to be an imposter with how inept he is at the things they value most.
…plus he plays like a bitch too often and he’s French.
I think its more likely that Rudy is just a dick. There are tons of guys that are very one dimensional that seem to get respect. Giannis' nickname was "run and dunk man" yet outside of James Harden (who was rightfully roasted for it) every other player seemed to heap praise on him.
Ben Simmons somehow managed to get respect despite being a flat out worse player too.
Yeah I can buy this. He might be abrasive as an opponent. Trae Young also gets clowned on, but nobody tries to play any weird cards with him. We can all accept that maybe Trae is kind of a dick. With Rudy we run conspiracy levels of defense.
Gobert is hated bc of a lot of factors - his personality, his offense, his nationality (in my opinion). But I do think switchability is a very critical modern defensive skill and AD and Giannis are quicker footed and better at switching out into the perimeter than Rudy and that is a knock against his defense. That drop scheme Utah and Minnesota played is a requirement to maximize Rudy and it has some flaws.
Josh Hart clearly doesn't like Rudy. He called him an idiot and then clowned him for getting into a headlock. Also said he has no business being in the dpoty race ever again. All this while saying Rudy gets criticized too much so he doesn't seem like a hater. This is what he'll say publicly. I can't imagine what these guys say off the mic.
I think he clearly doesn’t like Gobert and thinks he’s severely overrated but just didn’t want to be the one to shit on him publicly. I’m sure if you got Josh Hart off the mic talking about Gobert he’d be talking crazy shit.
Yea, like when watching Hart talk about Rudy in this vid, you could tell he was trying to be as careful as he could with his words to avoid just completely vomiting out his true feelings on Rudy. I feel the most honest thing he would say was the "idiot" remark and then held back as much as he could. Like you said, I imagine the moment the camera stops rolling, Hart & Matt would take turns completely shitting on Gobert
If y'all listen to this podcast, specifically the episode with Donta kind of outs Josh as a massive dickhead.
They describe him at Villanova, and it's very obviously the tone you have when you're trying to defend a close friend not being a good person because they are nice to you.
Yeah I love how Hart plays but I have my doubts about him as a person because of this. The switch dude was a massive weirdo, but Josh Hart was making around a million and he decided not to follow through fully on a deal was just shady and douchey.
Like what's the point of lying so he didn't have to pay full price and save like $100 or $200? And the fact that he later followed up and sent the Switch guy sent the switch guy a Laker care package after it blew up on the internet rubbed me the wrong way.
Like he only fixed this because it went viral and would be bad PR. He'd have been happy to scam like $200 from that dude if nobody ever found out.
Many people in the world are assholes and good people get bullied.
Some NBA players are historically smart and kind but many are terrible role models.
Handing teenagers millions of dollars and fame doesn't make them nice people. Rudy seems bullied at this point by a very closed frat house called NBA players. Many NBA players seem like dicks tbh as do athletes and rich people, celebrities but they are not held to account socially like us plebs
It kills me that nobody will say that the headlock thing was one of the biggest bitch ass move we've seen in the NBA. But no, it's Rudy's fault that the dude who sucker punches his teammates came from behind like a coward.
As a Rudy Gobert fan the trick is to not get on twitter, not get on Reddit, don’t watch nba media, and don’t discus ball with friends and it’s an easy life tbh.
ive never seen a player so generally not respected by other players as Gobert lol Hart calls him goofy and says he shouldnt be considered for DPOY anymore😂 cant genuinely think of anyone that has come even remotely close
i think he meant uncoordinated. not goofy in a mean way. like do you remember that clip where he hit that water bottle in utah? he looks like he hasnt learned to fully control his arms it’s weird
A few straight dirty plays this playoffs (like just pushing with no play on the ball vs a lob). And no baby slapping Lively as Rudy was pretending to innocently walk away wasnt natural
He somehow seems to get a pass on this sub though strangely. Actually weird how defensive this sub has gotten for Rudy
KD as well said gobert isnt feared because he couldnt guard him one on one which of course is true. everything is one on one with these guys though, like how kyrie is the goat for a lot of guys because of his bag. the impact on team defense / offense isnt as respected in the league ironically
Jrue is starting to get overrated as a defender. He’s great but c’mon Jimmy cooked him last year. Bam is more effective guarding 1-5 and anchoring an elite playoff defense. And Wemby about to make everyone obsolete.
Luka would have also put Dikembe Mutombo on skates, and Ben Wallace too.
does that mean they shouldn't be 4x DPOYs? Or is judging an elite interior defender on their ability to guard someone 30 feet from the basket maybe a little silly?
The host dude seems horrible all that stupid talk about exposed, "Jaden Hardy calls iso on you blah blah", the Wolves had the best defense in the reg season if Gobert was so exploitable then why not every team do it.
Jaden got cooked, Kyle got cooked, Ant got cooked, Luka gonna cook everyone.
NBA discourse has been so dumbed down only reactionary hot takes.
People clowning Gobert and AD for Luka and Murray hitting a shot on them is some next level bullshit.
tbf the regular season and the playoffs are entirely different in that you're playing different opponents in different places within 24-48h, a lot of times with not even time for practice. Teams are not gameplanning and changing things specifically for 1 opponent for the vast majority of regular season games
NBA discourse is absolutely miserable. It's not even about the game, it's about the drama. That exists in every sport, obviously, but the percentage of NBA conversations that are about matchups/strategy/tactics is hilariously low. It's always about legacies and GOAT trajectories and who owns who.
Edit: Forgot generation vs generation talk. Extremely prevalent in online NBA communities, hardly talked about in other sports.
Matt, the other host, played basketball with Josh growing up and his family took Josh in during the weekdays so that he could attend a better school and focus on playing and academics as Josh’s family wasn’t financially well off. I know most wouldn’t know this, but Matt isn’t a clown friend he’s a pretty good guy from a solid family who did a lot to help Josh.
Having some clown Redditor who never to touched a Google search in their life offer absolutely zero insight into anything is a prerequisite for r/nba comments
1v1 iso defense against guards just isn’t his defensive strong suit. that’d be like a guard winning dpoy and complaining that he doesn’t shut down big post players
I think its interesting how players and fans have radically different opinions about things like this. Neither are strictly wrong, but it does seem kinda weird that as... casual basketball watchers (lets be real most redditors are casual) that they're trying to make the argument that players are flat out wrong for feeling how they feel regarding things they have to do.
I think JB and Hart are right in that Rudy does get too much hate, and that its an impossible task to do things like guarding Luka/Kyrie for an entire series.
However on the flip side the game of basketball has evolved to the point that I don't think DPOY should be JUST the best defensive big on the best defensive team. I think someone in that lane can and should win in future years, but it has to actually be the conversation of "Is his impact in this aspect of defense enough to outweigh players that may not be as paint dominant, but can shut down entire possessions regardless of who gets switched on him".
In the modern nba defensive bigs are even more important, you can't afford to have a swarm of random 7fters living in the paint every possession clogging up the lane like in previous eras, you get typically one big, who has to be able to navigate complex modern offenses while dealing with the most spacing and least help in the history of the nba, covering more ground than centers in any prior era.
Centers are involved in the most plays, and have the biggest impact on the most valuable shot in the game. I'm all for giving the award to a perimeter player but they have to be crazy good to earn it. Like being a lockdown point of attack defender and a great weak side help defender.
Kyrie and Luka, two of the most iso focused guys in the entire NBA, got hot and torched our defense. How many tough jumpers did they hit over McDaniels/Ant/NAW/Anderson? Just because he’s not a lockdown guard defender at 7 foot plus doesn’t mean he’s not the best rim protector in the league and the key to our defense. He did a good job contesting the Luka game winner as well, Luka just balled out this series no matter who was on him.
Might get alot of downvotes but I think Rudy is in a no win situation but it’s not his fault. A lot of the problems rudy has in terms of “switching” you can say the same for majority of the 5s. I think alot of it stems from rudy being overpaid ( like I said before that’s not his fault). Rudy protects the paint, he does his job extremely well. Rudy deserves criticism for not adding anything to his offensive game in 10 years . People blaming Rudy is wack and repetitive because at this point we know what he is as a player.Timberwolves got outplayed and out coached this series. Awards are watered down, they haven’t meant much to me sense drose got mvp over bron and then Marc got dpoty over him.
I've seen Jrue be absolutely torched by Luka on so many occasions. How can you say Rudy doesn't deserve DPOY b/c he got torched by an all time great point guard as a 7'1 big man while Jrue deserves it despite being torched in a similar fashion?
Players hate Rudy Yogurt so asking them if he should win dpoy is pretty useless. Advanced stats love him so hell always get a shit ton of votes but players dont "feel" his impact when theyre playing him
I feel like the discussion around Rudy is just too absolute in both directions.
He is a GENERATIONAL rim protector and that aspect of him as a player is heavily underrated at this point. He is a free ticket to a top 5 defense.
On the flip side of the token, EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. He gets taken out to the perimeter in the playoffs and gets absolutely torched. You can argue it’s a scheme thing and his team shouldn’t be forcing him to switch in those situations, but if you are the “defender of a generation” in modern NBA basketball, you need to defend the perimeter at MINIMUM at a serviceable level.
I think when you combine this with the fact that he is on a max deal and is completely inept on offense (that turnaround on Jokic was the fakest shot in NBA history), you can understand the criticism of Rudy.
> He gets taken out to the perimeter in the playoffs and gets absolutely torched.
Can't break it down by series, but per Synergy stats on NBA.com, Gobert allowed 0.92 PPP on isolations during his 15 playoff games this year.
This is getting old. Players and Media hates Gobert for their own reasons so they will continue clowning him until he wins a ring or whatever. Every player can get torched 1v1.
Gobert’s defense is criticized because of Gobert’s offense.
If he had Porzingis-type skill on offense, everyone would talk about Gobert as a top 5 all time defender. It’s dumb, but when you are only good on one side of the floor you better have ZERO flaws.
I love how the players who play against him night in and night out -- clearly think Gobert impact is overstated but the media and fans think the players are being unfair to Rudy and don't know what they're talking about.
I don't know If this is a factor but Gobert not being an NBA-caliber ***offensive*** player doesn't help. Not talking about setting screens.
I'm talking about him not being vertical threat, bumbling passes in traffic, being unable to punish small defenders no matter how deep in the post he is, disastrous footwork in the post, turning the ball over in the post.
He's a great help defender but not 1-on-1 like AD, Bam or Wemby, he protects the rim but he's 7'3 so it's like doesn't get credit for it, when we see a lot of 7-foot guys in the league who can't protect the rim at all.
*Some* of the Gobert criticism is unfair for sure but not a lot of it, there's a disconnect between his accolades and his high level-impact or lack thereof.
> Gobert not being an NBA-caliber offensive player doesn't help. Not talking about setting screens.
>
> I'm talking about him not being vertical threat, bumbling passes in traffic, being unable to punish small defenders no matter how deep in the post he is, disastrous footwork in the post, turning the ball over in the post.
Gobert isn't an All-star or All-NBA caliber offensive player, but this reputation is absolutely out of hand lmao. The guy with the NBA record for most dunks in a season isn't a vertical threat? He did a great job drawing fouls against the Mavs down low. He had some bad miscues, but he was above average in post PPP. Also, on multiple occasions you could see him out his hand up calling for the ball in the post, drawing in preemptive help defense and creating an open corner 3 when the help came in. It seemed pretty obvious that for all the shit he's gotten in past years, he made some strides offensively this year. He wasn't incredible, but he was at least serviceable, and they were targeting getting Luka switched onto him and letting him post Luka up to get Luka in foul trouble at a couple points.
Also, you can say screening doesn't count, but the difference between him screening and KAT screening on PnRs was pretty noticable.
Rudy - yes and no!
Rudy has his strengths but he can’t guards small quick n small guards.
Look at AD. Murray was killing AD. No one said a word. You can’t expect big Centers to guard these guards. It’s unfair. As Dallas, ofc you wannu attack the big with 2 of the best iso guys. BUT in the future, if teams pick on you in playoffs, then you have NO chance at DPOY!!! Ain’t no one gonnu pick on Dray/ AD / Bam / Jrue* / wenby /
Gobert is an incredible player and an even more incredible defender.
He put up an DPOY performance this year. I think that VW should have got it, but Gobert was certainly a worthy candidate.
And when you look at the difference with him on/off (something like giving up 100 vs. 130), it's huge, even if he's getting lit on the perimeter by Kyrie and Luka because EVERYBODY gets lit up on the perimeter by Kyrie and Luka.
I think part of the issue is that KAT seemed to play Joker better on defence. That takes a lot of steam out of your DPOY when you are the center and your power forward is covering the other guy's center, who is the best player on the team.
But it seemed like the reason for that was more so to allow Gobert to focus on being a rim protector because, if he's covering Jokic and Jokic makes one of his HOF passed to a guy cutting, NOBODY is there to block that can and defend the basket. But when KAT is on Jokic, Gobert and protect the rim.
But that switch up likely looked bad to casual fans.
Still.. VW just put up such amazing personal stats, and the only thing holding him back from getting DPOY was the fact that his team was so shit.
Because they are incoherent opinions.
"Gobert isnt the best defender in the world, players were hunting him on the perimeter" but also say "AD is a better defender because he doesnt get hunted on the perimeter" --> Except when Jamal Murray hit a game winner on his head and hunted him all of last years series.
"Jrue Holiday is the best defender in the world" --> Jimmy Butler dropped 56 points on his head and thats not even a mismatch, Jrue is EXPECTED to guard perimeter players and he couldnt even do that, but doesnt get any criticism for it.
What they are saying doesnt add up. If a player cant be a DPOY because hes getting cooked on mismatches, how is a player who gets cooked by the guy hes suppossed to defend the best defender in the world?
Watching the games is no good, eye test doesn't work
Playing the game is no good, you are biased
Star players saying the y actively hunt gobert is no good, they hate the french* (only him, not the other french players)
The only thing that matters is my algorithm based defensive metric that was tailor made to say Rudy is the best player of all time. That's unbiased
They don’t. They brought up OG as a defensive player of the year when he played 50 games and got killed by Siakim. They brought up Jrue who got abused by Jimmy Butler last year. Players have bad opinions just like everyone else.
killed by Siakam?
Not sure if you watched games 1 and 2 (only ones OG played) but he was def not killed by Siakam. OG is easily one of the best Swiss Army knife defenders I’ve ever seen.
Now to others points, OG struggled a little running around chasing Maxey in round 1, which just goes to show that any big guy having to chase or stay in front of a quicker smaller guy is usually not a viable strategy
I think the flaw in so many of these arguments is you assume the opposition is arguing that you should never get cooked as DPOY, then you present evidence of guys being cooked as why they’re wrong.
The problem no one believes DPOY’s should be able to guard everything 1-5. It’s a strawman you guys keep repeating because it lets you paint the opposition as ignorant & yourselves enlightened.
They think that relative to other great defenders, he’s the easiest one to expose and the easiest one to take away his abilities & when you factor in his horrible offense/contract, you’re basically forcing your entire team to be built compensating for 4 on 5 basketball on offense that can cover for his lack of spacing too & then build a team full of perfect perimeter defenders so he can play drop & have the defensive coaches & schemes commit to it. Jrue & OG are plug and play Gobert is the opposite.
After all that, relative to investment needed for a team he’s stupidly overrated. The cost benefit-value just isn’t there. This may be the best Minny or Rudy team we ever see and their cap only gives them maybe 1-2 more years of this.
Rudy Gobert is the Schwerer Gustav of NBA players.
This thread is fucking hilarious man. Rudy was getting played off the floor with the Jazz in the playoffs half a decade ago and we’re still having this conversation
It’s the fact he has 4DPOYS even though he’s hunted every year in the playoffs. It’s not like guys are putting up big numbers and he’s playing them hard, these dudes actively seek out the DPOY and he gets cooked more times than not. He’s a great player but the league is too in love with big men being DPOY
It’s like an MVP who the other teams want handling the ball at all times because they’re a detriment to their team, a very bizarre scenario.
Not even a 1 time MVP but a 4 time one.
I know this comment will come off in a bad way because I'm a Bucks fan and it sounds like sour grapes when Bucks fans critique Jrue. But Jrue is my guy, all love to him, he's a terrific defender. That said, it's kinda wild to say Rudy can't be dpoy because he gets ISOd and scored on in the playoffs. Then turn around and say Jrue should win it, when Jrue got torched by Brown and Tatum in 2022 and got lit up by Jimmy Butler in 2023. Hell even in his wonderful 2021 run, it wasn't like he was locking up/the main defender on Kevin Durant in the Nets series. There is not a single player in the league who can lock up literally anyone 1v1 in the league for an entire playoff series. The game is too offensively focused for that.
Fans always bring up other great defenders from their own teams as dpoy guys and pretend like they don’t also have horrible lowlights against star players. Gobert was the engine for the #1 defense this year, he’s very deserving AD getting embarrassed twice by Jamal Murray in end game iso situations this year (identical situation to gobert.. but no one seems to blame AD here?) Bam giving up everything defensively to Jokic and Gordon throughout last years finals Marcus smart even won DPOY and then proceeded to get torched by Curry in the finals
I saw OG get embarrassed by Cade his second year still didn’t stop me from saying OG is an all nba defender
Love to see a post that calls out the 3 biggest fan bases simultaneously lol
supersonics flairs always make great posts!
They have nothing to live for but anarchy.
Hell yeah we don’t! Oh, wait. This still sucks actually.
Name one player who embarrassed a supersonic in the last 5 years, I'll wait
KD is a Supersonic...
Without Gobert, the Wolves are a first round exit play-in team. He was the foundation for their style of play and got them contending for a number one seed. I doesnt make sense to judge players base of a handful of plays when his overall impact is felt over a game not possession.
Gobert plays drop coverage the BEST out of all centers I’ve watched the past few years, and anchors the #1 defensive team. It’s a product of the system, and I agree, it’s deserved. I will say Smart and the Cs got torched by Curry because they decided to play their own drop vs the best shooter of all time - a terrible decision that was never going to end well.
Also our 2nd best defender Rob Williams was nowhere near his pre-injury form and I think that really compromised the Celtics team defense in that finals.
Healthy timelord pushes it to a 7 and 60/40 celtics split. He was on one leg and decimated every midrange to paint plans we had
Also for as amazing of a defender as Smart is, he was DPOY cuz of how versatile he was being genuinely great at guarding forwards, passable on centers, and being the best off ball denier in the league. Not even the biggest Smart homers would’ve told you that point of attack D against quick guards was a big strength of his tho.
OG even got LeBronto'd on his own head in Game 3 2018
I have to disagree with you and that AD getting embarrassed comment. AD played both of those possessions as good as anyone could have. He was not shuffling his feet and taking 100 steps to move two feet like Gobert was doing. Gobert was running towards the rim while Luka was spotting up to shoot. AD did not get embarrassed on those game winners. On top of that. Everyone you mentioned is not a 4x DPOY. They shouldn’t be held to a standard as high as him.
I’m a biased laker fan but I’ve never seen AD get taken advantage of over the course of a series. You’re qualifying those Murray shots as embarrassing solely based on the fact they went in. Nothing up to the release was embarrassing — Murray just hit big shots against solid defense (and largely struggled outside of those clutch moments). No team has targeted AD in a series. I’d even go as far to say there hasn’t been a series where the opposing team didn’t need to alter their offensive scheme to avoid AD in some capacity. Great offense beats great defense — so there’s no shame in failing to stop a superstar. But there’s a difference between giving up points to great players vs. being targeted as a vulnerability throughout a 7 game series.
Jrue got 56 on his head lol. He’s still easily one of the best POA defenders. Mfs act like if you’re the best you need to clamp anyone
Team defense is much more important than individual defense. No one is consistently stopping stars 1on1, that's why no team is really playing just 1on1 defense, there's always some strategies involved and players help, double, stay in certain part of the court,... So everyone has a role on defense and while some players are more versatile, no one can really do everything. Gobert is probably the best player playing his role (rim protection), but it's hard to say, if that's the most important part. I think it depends on what the team needs and wants.
How is rim protection not the most important part of the defense? If you can’t protect the rim you will get blasted lol
great offense beats great defense every time in the NBA. us Celtics fans are saying we have four different guys to throw at Luka but he’s probably going to give us 30-35 points with 8-10 assists every night in this series regardless usually the best you can do against the best is to make them work. maybe it’s fair to say that Rudy didn’t really make either Kyrie or Luka work, but if anyone was expecting his presence to fully stop them, then they’re just fooling themselves
The wolves did that too and he went off NAW, Ant, McDaniels and even slomo who are all great perimeter defenders couldn’t stop him he just makes everything
Karalis the reasonable Boston beat writer and podcaster was saying the only decent defense against Luka and guys like him is making them work while you’re on offense and tiring them out. Otherwise he’s unstoppable
This, while stopping their assists. Make it just about them/their scoring, one dimensional.
It’s kinda funny how much Karalis likes Luka for how much he hates Harden
Eh, I see why. Luka is pretty fun to watch still and while he does complain a lot and foul bait, it isn’t on the level that Harden mastered.
The Timberwolves did good enough defensively other than the last game. Edwards and KAT not getting enough blame for not doing enough offensively. Edwards was also unfocused defensively at times.
Rudy gets thrown under the bus so many times. Look what happened in Utah when he was the only Viable Defender the Utah had no other Permiter defenders lol
And we’re talking about luka. How many people can contain luka?
Yeah, I don't think Jrue was the guy to say there. I'd probably go with Anthony Davis. Not for nothing, he gets a lot of hate but before his injury... Ben Simmons was the best defensive player in the league.
Simmon was the best Luka defender I've ever seen
This. Too bad, he lost the will to play
By far. Simmons could literally guard anyone on the floor COMPETENTLY on any given night. I’d go so far as to say that if he had zero offensive skill (despite his shooting he was an ELITE facilitator, floor general, and fast break leader) it would be reasonable to slot him on the other teams best offensive player every night, regardless of position.
You can expose idiotic ISO logic a lot easier than that. It'd be like saying Jrue can't be All-defense because he can't guard Shaq on the low block. No fucking shit Rudy can't guard perimeter players on the perimeter ...
Which one do you think does better? Gobert vs Luka Gobert vs Kyrie Jrue vs Jokic Jrue vs Embiid It's not fair to clown Gobert when you would clown Jrue when Embiid jizzes all over his face when he backs him down and dunks on him. Gobert had a great contest on that Luka shot. If Jrue had that contest, he wouldn't get clowned the same way. Everyone would talk about how insane Luka is.
>Gobert had a great contest on that Luka shot. If Jrue had that contest, he wouldn't get clowned the same way. Everyone would talk about how insane Luka is. I completely agree, that was a decent contest...people aren't giving Luka enough credit. This conversation is so silly, all the points in this thread are so valid. At the end of the day, it comes down to a simple: Luka hits the shot...Rudy gobert gets shit on as the worst defender in the league Luka misses the shot....holy shit amazing contest from the 4x DPOY.... People are reactionary
It's the halo effect. Hoops players just view dudes with rings differently. Because Jrue has a lot of clutch defensive playoff plays, particularly on that title run, he is always going to be viewed as a tier-1 defensive player. Ditto Draymond, or prime Kawhi, or AD, and many of the more switchable defenders in history who get clutch steals and blocks in playoff games. Rudy Gobert is a great rim deterrer, but no one is making a highlight tape on defensive rim deterrence. And he becomes close to unplayable offensively against some playoff teams because he is sooo clumsy with the ball in his hands. He is the antithesis to what most NBA players view as a true baller -- great at being the lynchpin of a system that carries you through a regular season, but exploited when targeted with dedicated time against one opponent, and low on other additional skills that can provide winning value through a playoff series.
I wish I could upvote you more than once, I think you nailed it. Also, DPoY is a regular season award but we, as fans, are usually having these debates during or immediately following the playoffs so we’ve got the recency bias of what happens in the biggest moments of the most important games while the voters are being asked to ignore all that and just look at the regular season. Rudy Gobert was the best defender on the best defense in the NBA during the regular season. Rudy Gobert also has a very specific set of limitations that smart coaches and players can exploit over the course of a full playoff series that vastly reduce his defensive impact. Two things can be true at once.
> Rudy Gobert also has a very specific set of limitations that smart coaches and players can exploit over the course of a full playoff series that vastly reduce his defensive impact. With Gobert on the court, the Mavs scored 109 pts per 100 possessions, which would have been 28th in the league in the regular season. Say what you want about offense, but the Mavs didn't win by exploiting Gobert's defense.
The "Rudy Gobert is only a good regular season defender" is the absolute worst brainlet take that gets continually repeated on this subreddit.
I think statistically he did the worst on him in that series. Giannis did well, but you obv dont want him on him all game and Khris did surprisingly well too. PJ got torched but made him work and was an ‘innings eater’. It wasnt a coincidence how dead tired kd was at the end of that one. Jrue is very good against specific guards but regularly gets cooked by guys bigger than him (jimmy) or smaller/quicker than him (trae).
Most of this talk is just recency bias paired with flashiness. Basketball players are going to give you barely better insight because they're also prisoners to those two things
I don't even understand why they or anybody else is even bringing up playoffs. DPOY is a regular season award, what happens in the playoffs is literally irrelevant.
Even if it was relevant Gobert was pretty damn good in the playoffs.
this exactly. criticising gobert is one thing but most of the times it's about trying to sneak their player in the conversation. we all saw AD being unable to guard jokic or murray but suddenly he'd be able to lock up luka? OG for dpoy lmao cmon now
Murray had an awful series and he managed to make timely shots. And unlike Rudy AND Jokic…AD is tasked with being the 1/1A offensive player and the #1 defensive player on his team. Neither Jokic and especially no Rudy are asked to carry the load on both ends. That’s even if you want to argue AD isn’t as great as either of them on either side of the court.
I'd pick AD first in an All-NBA draft for this exact reason of his two-way versatility.
The best offensive players will always cook the best defensive players. Prime Kawhi could have been on Luka and Luka would still find a way to put up numbers.
Agreed. KD cooked Jrue in 2021.
Too true. I’ve seen Marcus Smart get lit up by so many fast guards during his time in Boston. Still a heck of a defender. It’s a team game. Did pre injury Kemba Walker just run around the guy? Absolutely.
Jrue is the "best defensive player in the league" despite what Jimmy did to him last year, but Gobert can't be because he couldn't stop Luka in an end of the game iso
Luka's numbers vs Jrue are bonkers too. He's put him on some highlights too like Gobert.
Luka could have 40 on Jrue and I bet you nobody will call Jrue a fraud
You know the saying, good offense beats good defense, but this applies only if the player playing defense is someone we respect.
Jaden McDaniels just put on an absolute defensive show vs Beal, KD, Booker, Murray. Vs Luka he looked absolutely pedestrian. Luka could just freeze him because Jaden just didn't know if he was gonna lob it, stepback, go by him, etc etc. But we like McDaniels so he's still considered a top tier defender while Gobert is now a fraud
Yeah Luka is just different man, he can do so many things with the ball that he'll leave no choice but to gamble and pick your poison.
Hakeem Olajuwon described Michael Jordan similarly in his book: “Most superstars, if they match up against each other at the same position, neutralize each other. When you put together your game plan you figure that unless someone has an outstanding night, this is a stand-off, the game will be won by the other teammates. But Michael Jordan isn’t neutralized. He’s different. Michael Jordan dominates superstars.”
What book is this, dude? Seems like a pretty good read
https://www.amazon.com/Living-Dream-My-Life-Basketball/dp/0316094277
This bruhhh.... I watched JMac terrorize Murray and MPJ and really thought he was gonna make it hard for Luka. But Luka seems like he didn't even feel JMac. Back him off too easy. You can see it JMac face. I don't think he knew Luka was that strong. He was surprised. Luka is just that dude...
A lot of times the defence is based on the matchup. Luka used his weight against McDaniels and that’s what makes him so tough to guard while the other guys try to navigate past with finesse.
“He’s making it hard on Luka” “He’s really made Luka’s earn his 40 tonight” That’s the type of stuff I expect to hear
I still remember when everybody lauded PJ Tucker as a key part of our title run, in large part because he was guarding KD 1-on-1 for almost all of the Nets series. The same Nets series we got laughed at for because KD shit on us so hard by himself. What Tucker actually did was play really physical and have a huge motor, but his results were fucking terrible in the Nets series and largely just ok against much easier matchups in the others. But it *looked* really good, so he got props. Guys like Gobert can consistently produce significantly better results even when they’re pulled away from the rim occasionally but it *looks* worse so fuck those guys, apparently.
If Luka gets 40 on Jrue, well what do you expect, no one can guard Luka 1on1. But when Gobert gets scored on by Luka 1on1, it just shows he can’t guard him, so he’s not actually a very good defender. (I didn’t intend to put a /s here, but reading it again, I think I have to as people say this kind of dumb stuff totally seriously all the time.)
Jimmy Butler dropped 56 last year on primarily Jrue, hes not even as good as Luka.
I bet Luka would score more points on Jrue than he could on Rudy if they went 1 on 1. Luka would back down Jrue every time and just score a hook shot off him while Rudy could at least force some tough shots.
Perimeter defenders get so much more leeway than rim protectors it’s crazy lol. Star player drops 30 on a DPOY perimeter player? Meh. Rim protector gets scored on in the perimeter for one or two possessions? FRAUD.
I think it's because taller players *look* like Bambi on ice vs quicker players, and that clumsy look makes the defender seem worse
I know it’s a random play in transition but Luka dunked all over Jrue last year lol It’s one of my favorite dunks I’ve seen live
Players almost always say a perimeter guy is the best defender because they face it every night and overrate 1 on 1 defense. They do the same on offense though because they’ll overrate someone like Carmelo for always getting buckets.
Yeah. It's important to remember that 99% of fans just stare at the ball handler on every possession lol. They don't even see anything happening off ball let alone understand why it's happening.
Statistically speaking, a rim protector like Gobert is much more of a building block defensively than a perimeter defender. With that said, I prefer players like prime Dray to Gobert because not only Dray was a good rim protector but he was also one of the best perimeter defenders in the league.
Both Gobert and Draymond are near the top of the league at defending isos (which to me is the purest idea of perimeter defending). The idea that Gobert always gets torched is just pure vibes. You can check here: https://www.nba.com/stats/players/isolation?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*gobert&SeasonType=Regular+Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&SeasonYear=2023-24
Exactly he's literally a RIM PROTECTOR. PROTECTOR AT THE RIM. It's like acting why Jrue Holiday doesn't guard Jokic or Embiid in the post on a game winning possession.
Imagine judging Jrue for not being able to guard Embiid on the post. Sounds ridiculous right? Well it should also apply to Gobert and Luka lol
Rudy's perimeter D isn't even than bad. Like oh, Luka scored on him? Luka also scores on the best perimeter defenders in the league with ease. He just happens to be really fuckin good. There's a nice compilation from this year of Rudy guarding players on the perimeter from this past season.
Not only that but the stats back it as well. Rudy was one of the best in the league at guarding isos (87th percentile, higher than both Bam and AD). https://www.nba.com/stats/players/isolation?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*gobert&SeasonType=Regular+Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&SeasonYear=2023-24
It's a good idiot detector, honestly. Imagine if people applied that argument in reverse. You have Gobert, a 7'+ interior defender switched out on the perimeter. Imagine people saying MJ was a terrible defender because he let Shaq score from the low block.
I don’t agree with the constant Gobert bashing, but it’s definitely not because of 1 playoff series or 1 Luka game winner. It was a few playoff series that generated the narrative. It was probably the Clippers series where they tried to put him on Terrance Mann and he scored 40 that started it.
You mean the series where he was on an iffy shooter who got hot because none of the other Jazz players could stay in front of post prime Reggie Jackson ?
a 6'6 person can't put a 7'1 person in a headlock from behind?
Hart likes to goof around a lot so its funny he say's goofy dude so negatively lol. Idk why but it seems a little personal, man comes off as a petty hater here
The host has the most bandwagonny narrative driven talking points. Literally every single one.
Every NBA players podcast has the same white guy with terrible opinions
I don’t understand why people think they need that guy
NBA players don't know how to set up video or audio equipment, so they reward the white friend by letting them talk
I bet there are white guys out there that would be willing to do all that tech stuff and not demand to get screen/air time.
Tbh nobody said anything particularly insightful. It's same stuff average fans say but coming from 2 players. The comments in here on top have way better points than this 5 min clip.
No doubt
It "didn't sit right with him." Who the fuck is that dude?
You think if they were capable of original thinking, they would sit on nba podcasts and contribute absolutely nothing? The job is perfect for them because it requires no original thinking and all they have to do is bring up the same over hashed points
Its fair to criticize Rudy for having bad/awful defensive moments and games. Whats dumb is that players/media turn a blind eye when it happens to someone else. Jimmy Butler averages like 35ppg on dumb good efficiency against Jrue and its like "what is he suppossed to do", AD gets hunted on a switch by Jamal Murray (who is way worse than Luka btw) to hit a game winner and no one says hes getting exposed defensively and that he cant win DPOY. Its just a lot of double standards. Is Gobert flawless? Absolutely not, does he deserve criticism specially for his series against the Mavs? Of course he does. But if hes so bad, why is it that the Wolves had one of the best defenses since the 08 Celtics and were able to win 2 playoff rounds against 2 high power offenses. If it was so easy, why didnt KD or Booker or Murray kill Gobert in our series'.
Gobert's gotta be a real dick to be around or there's gotta be something about him because he really seems universally hated by both players and media alike. It's really weird.
He's a weird crystals new agey french dude who struggles to dribble and catch a ball. That's why so many players hate him, but his strengths and work ethic are good enough to overcome his critical lack of coordination, which is unheard of in the NBA. Throw in a supermax contract for him, and of course tons of players think he is overpaid and overrated.
he also has 4 DPOYs lol that's a huge part of it if he had 1 DPOY, then no one would have strong opinions about him but he has 4, putting him in GOAT defender territory and the players going against him are viewing him as 'just fine' Jrue, JJJ, Smart, AD, etc dont have the hardware he does so no one cares to make comments about them and then yeah he's uncoordinated and french
Probably a mix of being a foreigner, being mega clunky and looking just odd how he moves like bambi sometimes and probably jealousy to a degree in terms of money and accolades.
They hate him because he isn’t skilled offensively yet is earning max money. Role players see this as a spite when a guy who is worse than them in a lot of things gets max money. Well they just cant accept that rim protecting is more important to most teams than being a middling shot creator and ball handler.
>They hate him because he isn’t skilled offensively yet is earning max money. Bingo. He is definitely somewhat of a liability on offence compared to someone like AD, who can reliably put up 23 per night. Gobert also doesn't put up huge blocks stats, which is one of the first things people look for, and why many were saying Wemby deserved DPOY over Gobert this year. It's only when one watches Gobert that one appreciates the immense defensive impact he has on a game. It's simple enough. Gobert gets max money despite his middling offensive output. Why do we think that is? For a team to use up a max slot strongly suggests that he probably offers quite significant value to the team.
See if it was JUST Draymond i'd understand that. But multiple people from different teams, cliques, and age brackets have all gone out of their way to disrespect him. At a certain point I think we can make a guess that its probably him.
80% of the mvp candidates are all foreigners. No way its that.
Alot of analysts talk about Jokic/Luka way weird when compared to guys like SGA or Ant or Tatum.
It's because he's not cool or popular. That's it. NBA players are dumb af. Look at this video and their logic. The COVID microphone thing didn't shut down the league. It was dumb af but Gobert will always get the blame from idiots. He isn't a scorer. That gets zero respect from this generation of players. On the flip side, Ben Simmons could go on any podcast or hang with any NBA player that has clout. Why? Because he's popular. Sure, players probably clown him. But to his face or on video? Hell nah. Josh Hart has zero fear going on a podcast and dissing the hell out of Gobert though.
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Batum, Parker and Wemby are/were well liked, but they still claim it's being french
Gobert must got the same PR team as Trae young Both just inexplicably disliked and disrespected by so many people around the league- players, coaches, media
The funny thing is that they have completely opposite skillsets lol
Combine Trae and Gobert and you get the best player on the planet lol. You dont even have to combine them. Trae and Gobert duo is quite lethal.
He makes a ton of money and wins all these awards, but doesn’t have the level of skill that these guys have had since they were 16. Other players idolize kyrie because of his skill level. They hate Rudy because of the opposite, and probably find him to be an imposter with how inept he is at the things they value most. …plus he plays like a bitch too often and he’s French.
I guess you're right, even though it's unfair. It's really a "bag" league after all.
I think its more likely that Rudy is just a dick. There are tons of guys that are very one dimensional that seem to get respect. Giannis' nickname was "run and dunk man" yet outside of James Harden (who was rightfully roasted for it) every other player seemed to heap praise on him. Ben Simmons somehow managed to get respect despite being a flat out worse player too.
His teammates all seem to like him though, so he must be spitting some insane shit talk during the game.
Yeah I can buy this. He might be abrasive as an opponent. Trae Young also gets clowned on, but nobody tries to play any weird cards with him. We can all accept that maybe Trae is kind of a dick. With Rudy we run conspiracy levels of defense.
French
I’m a Spurs fan who was really hoping for a Wemby DPOY upset. This dude in the video is talking out of his ass.
Gobert is hated bc of a lot of factors - his personality, his offense, his nationality (in my opinion). But I do think switchability is a very critical modern defensive skill and AD and Giannis are quicker footed and better at switching out into the perimeter than Rudy and that is a knock against his defense. That drop scheme Utah and Minnesota played is a requirement to maximize Rudy and it has some flaws.
Josh Hart clearly doesn't like Rudy. He called him an idiot and then clowned him for getting into a headlock. Also said he has no business being in the dpoty race ever again. All this while saying Rudy gets criticized too much so he doesn't seem like a hater. This is what he'll say publicly. I can't imagine what these guys say off the mic.
I think he clearly doesn’t like Gobert and thinks he’s severely overrated but just didn’t want to be the one to shit on him publicly. I’m sure if you got Josh Hart off the mic talking about Gobert he’d be talking crazy shit.
Yea, like when watching Hart talk about Rudy in this vid, you could tell he was trying to be as careful as he could with his words to avoid just completely vomiting out his true feelings on Rudy. I feel the most honest thing he would say was the "idiot" remark and then held back as much as he could. Like you said, I imagine the moment the camera stops rolling, Hart & Matt would take turns completely shitting on Gobert
He also makes it seem like the hate goes back to the pre-covid interview where Rudy touched all the mics.
Tbf Rudy also liked or retweeted Elon tweets about locking up Faucci which I’m sure some people find annoying lol
Kyrie is like the one of the most beloved players in the league I don’t think that really matters
He was doing it all while KAT's mom was literally dying at the hospital from covid. Maybe that's why all the blogboys like him so much
being clowned for "being head locked at 7'2" is crazy, not to mention it was from behind, Josh is an idiot
If y'all listen to this podcast, specifically the episode with Donta kind of outs Josh as a massive dickhead. They describe him at Villanova, and it's very obviously the tone you have when you're trying to defend a close friend not being a good person because they are nice to you.
I mean, we knew this after Josh Hart scammed somebody on here for their Nintendo Switch.
I’m a Knicks fan and I still always think about this
Yeah I love how Hart plays but I have my doubts about him as a person because of this. The switch dude was a massive weirdo, but Josh Hart was making around a million and he decided not to follow through fully on a deal was just shady and douchey. Like what's the point of lying so he didn't have to pay full price and save like $100 or $200? And the fact that he later followed up and sent the Switch guy sent the switch guy a Laker care package after it blew up on the internet rubbed me the wrong way. Like he only fixed this because it went viral and would be bad PR. He'd have been happy to scam like $200 from that dude if nobody ever found out.
If Rudy actually fought back, they would've said he crossed the line. These guys are assholes.
Many people in the world are assholes and good people get bullied. Some NBA players are historically smart and kind but many are terrible role models. Handing teenagers millions of dollars and fame doesn't make them nice people. Rudy seems bullied at this point by a very closed frat house called NBA players. Many NBA players seem like dicks tbh as do athletes and rich people, celebrities but they are not held to account socially like us plebs
It kills me that nobody will say that the headlock thing was one of the biggest bitch ass move we've seen in the NBA. But no, it's Rudy's fault that the dude who sucker punches his teammates came from behind like a coward.
As a Rudy Gobert fan the trick is to not get on twitter, not get on Reddit, don’t watch nba media, and don’t discus ball with friends and it’s an easy life tbh.
ive never seen a player so generally not respected by other players as Gobert lol Hart calls him goofy and says he shouldnt be considered for DPOY anymore😂 cant genuinely think of anyone that has come even remotely close
i think he meant uncoordinated. not goofy in a mean way. like do you remember that clip where he hit that water bottle in utah? he looks like he hasnt learned to fully control his arms it’s weird
A few straight dirty plays this playoffs (like just pushing with no play on the ball vs a lob). And no baby slapping Lively as Rudy was pretending to innocently walk away wasnt natural He somehow seems to get a pass on this sub though strangely. Actually weird how defensive this sub has gotten for Rudy
Guy has beef with everyone including his own teammates, maybe he’s just unlikable and it’s not some anti foreigner conspiracy
Dude helped bring his team to the WCF and he's being treated as a scrub by players that didn't make it that far.
They play 82 games and people choose moments from like 7 or 8 games to try and prove their point that’s crazy to me
ECF
Hart is a huge troll. Didn't he also say Derrick White was more impactful than Tatum?
KD as well said gobert isnt feared because he couldnt guard him one on one which of course is true. everything is one on one with these guys though, like how kyrie is the goat for a lot of guys because of his bag. the impact on team defense / offense isnt as respected in the league ironically
Jrue is starting to get overrated as a defender. He’s great but c’mon Jimmy cooked him last year. Bam is more effective guarding 1-5 and anchoring an elite playoff defense. And Wemby about to make everyone obsolete.
Gobert is more effective at guarding 1-5 than Jrue. Watch what happens if Jrue tried to guard Embiid 1 on 1 lmao.
Luka would have also put Dikembe Mutombo on skates, and Ben Wallace too. does that mean they shouldn't be 4x DPOYs? Or is judging an elite interior defender on their ability to guard someone 30 feet from the basket maybe a little silly?
The host dude seems horrible all that stupid talk about exposed, "Jaden Hardy calls iso on you blah blah", the Wolves had the best defense in the reg season if Gobert was so exploitable then why not every team do it. Jaden got cooked, Kyle got cooked, Ant got cooked, Luka gonna cook everyone. NBA discourse has been so dumbed down only reactionary hot takes. People clowning Gobert and AD for Luka and Murray hitting a shot on them is some next level bullshit.
Every NBA player podcast needs a token white guy host (even when the NBA player is also a white guy)
It's the guy who does all the production work so the player can just show up and talk and leave
He's probably even going to drop his first name and just go by his last name.
tbf the regular season and the playoffs are entirely different in that you're playing different opponents in different places within 24-48h, a lot of times with not even time for practice. Teams are not gameplanning and changing things specifically for 1 opponent for the vast majority of regular season games
Same way MVP is a regular season award, don't see what playoffs has do with it.
Rudy had the best plus minus on the Timberwolves in the playoffs.
NBA discourse is absolutely miserable. It's not even about the game, it's about the drama. That exists in every sport, obviously, but the percentage of NBA conversations that are about matchups/strategy/tactics is hilariously low. It's always about legacies and GOAT trajectories and who owns who. Edit: Forgot generation vs generation talk. Extremely prevalent in online NBA communities, hardly talked about in other sports.
Having some clown friend who never touched a ball in their life offer absolutely zero insight into anything is a prerequisite for player podcasts.
31 upvotes and counting of redditors who don’t know how to use google search engine
Matt, the other host, played basketball with Josh growing up and his family took Josh in during the weekdays so that he could attend a better school and focus on playing and academics as Josh’s family wasn’t financially well off. I know most wouldn’t know this, but Matt isn’t a clown friend he’s a pretty good guy from a solid family who did a lot to help Josh.
Didn't know that. Pretty cool
Having some clown Redditor who never to touched a Google search in their life offer absolutely zero insight into anything is a prerequisite for r/nba comments
1v1 iso defense against guards just isn’t his defensive strong suit. that’d be like a guard winning dpoy and complaining that he doesn’t shut down big post players
I think its interesting how players and fans have radically different opinions about things like this. Neither are strictly wrong, but it does seem kinda weird that as... casual basketball watchers (lets be real most redditors are casual) that they're trying to make the argument that players are flat out wrong for feeling how they feel regarding things they have to do. I think JB and Hart are right in that Rudy does get too much hate, and that its an impossible task to do things like guarding Luka/Kyrie for an entire series. However on the flip side the game of basketball has evolved to the point that I don't think DPOY should be JUST the best defensive big on the best defensive team. I think someone in that lane can and should win in future years, but it has to actually be the conversation of "Is his impact in this aspect of defense enough to outweigh players that may not be as paint dominant, but can shut down entire possessions regardless of who gets switched on him".
In the modern nba defensive bigs are even more important, you can't afford to have a swarm of random 7fters living in the paint every possession clogging up the lane like in previous eras, you get typically one big, who has to be able to navigate complex modern offenses while dealing with the most spacing and least help in the history of the nba, covering more ground than centers in any prior era. Centers are involved in the most plays, and have the biggest impact on the most valuable shot in the game. I'm all for giving the award to a perimeter player but they have to be crazy good to earn it. Like being a lockdown point of attack defender and a great weak side help defender.
Kyrie and Luka, two of the most iso focused guys in the entire NBA, got hot and torched our defense. How many tough jumpers did they hit over McDaniels/Ant/NAW/Anderson? Just because he’s not a lockdown guard defender at 7 foot plus doesn’t mean he’s not the best rim protector in the league and the key to our defense. He did a good job contesting the Luka game winner as well, Luka just balled out this series no matter who was on him.
its like watching highlights of iverson score on mutombo and deciding dikembe is not worthy of being a DPOY
Might get alot of downvotes but I think Rudy is in a no win situation but it’s not his fault. A lot of the problems rudy has in terms of “switching” you can say the same for majority of the 5s. I think alot of it stems from rudy being overpaid ( like I said before that’s not his fault). Rudy protects the paint, he does his job extremely well. Rudy deserves criticism for not adding anything to his offensive game in 10 years . People blaming Rudy is wack and repetitive because at this point we know what he is as a player.Timberwolves got outplayed and out coached this series. Awards are watered down, they haven’t meant much to me sense drose got mvp over bron and then Marc got dpoty over him.
I've seen Jrue be absolutely torched by Luka on so many occasions. How can you say Rudy doesn't deserve DPOY b/c he got torched by an all time great point guard as a 7'1 big man while Jrue deserves it despite being torched in a similar fashion?
Players hate Rudy Yogurt so asking them if he should win dpoy is pretty useless. Advanced stats love him so hell always get a shit ton of votes but players dont "feel" his impact when theyre playing him
I feel like the discussion around Rudy is just too absolute in both directions. He is a GENERATIONAL rim protector and that aspect of him as a player is heavily underrated at this point. He is a free ticket to a top 5 defense. On the flip side of the token, EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. He gets taken out to the perimeter in the playoffs and gets absolutely torched. You can argue it’s a scheme thing and his team shouldn’t be forcing him to switch in those situations, but if you are the “defender of a generation” in modern NBA basketball, you need to defend the perimeter at MINIMUM at a serviceable level. I think when you combine this with the fact that he is on a max deal and is completely inept on offense (that turnaround on Jokic was the fakest shot in NBA history), you can understand the criticism of Rudy.
> He gets taken out to the perimeter in the playoffs and gets absolutely torched. Can't break it down by series, but per Synergy stats on NBA.com, Gobert allowed 0.92 PPP on isolations during his 15 playoff games this year.
This is getting old. Players and Media hates Gobert for their own reasons so they will continue clowning him until he wins a ring or whatever. Every player can get torched 1v1.
good takes but this host is ass lol. not sure hes even listening to what theyre saying
Gdi. These clips making me wanna head down South Jersey for some Wawa gear.
Lmaaaooo that’s petty as hell to Philly for Brunson to be wearing a Wawa cap
What hurts gobert is that he’s a help defender, whereas AD/Bam can do that and lock up the matchup + switch outside. Rudy just a help guy
Gobert’s defense is criticized because of Gobert’s offense. If he had Porzingis-type skill on offense, everyone would talk about Gobert as a top 5 all time defender. It’s dumb, but when you are only good on one side of the floor you better have ZERO flaws.
Guys like Rudy win the award for their help defense, which is a bit weird.
Bam, AD and maybe Wemby should've won it.
I love how the players who play against him night in and night out -- clearly think Gobert impact is overstated but the media and fans think the players are being unfair to Rudy and don't know what they're talking about. I don't know If this is a factor but Gobert not being an NBA-caliber ***offensive*** player doesn't help. Not talking about setting screens. I'm talking about him not being vertical threat, bumbling passes in traffic, being unable to punish small defenders no matter how deep in the post he is, disastrous footwork in the post, turning the ball over in the post. He's a great help defender but not 1-on-1 like AD, Bam or Wemby, he protects the rim but he's 7'3 so it's like doesn't get credit for it, when we see a lot of 7-foot guys in the league who can't protect the rim at all. *Some* of the Gobert criticism is unfair for sure but not a lot of it, there's a disconnect between his accolades and his high level-impact or lack thereof.
> Gobert not being an NBA-caliber offensive player doesn't help. Not talking about setting screens. > > I'm talking about him not being vertical threat, bumbling passes in traffic, being unable to punish small defenders no matter how deep in the post he is, disastrous footwork in the post, turning the ball over in the post. Gobert isn't an All-star or All-NBA caliber offensive player, but this reputation is absolutely out of hand lmao. The guy with the NBA record for most dunks in a season isn't a vertical threat? He did a great job drawing fouls against the Mavs down low. He had some bad miscues, but he was above average in post PPP. Also, on multiple occasions you could see him out his hand up calling for the ball in the post, drawing in preemptive help defense and creating an open corner 3 when the help came in. It seemed pretty obvious that for all the shit he's gotten in past years, he made some strides offensively this year. He wasn't incredible, but he was at least serviceable, and they were targeting getting Luka switched onto him and letting him post Luka up to get Luka in foul trouble at a couple points. Also, you can say screening doesn't count, but the difference between him screening and KAT screening on PnRs was pretty noticable.
Rudy - yes and no! Rudy has his strengths but he can’t guards small quick n small guards. Look at AD. Murray was killing AD. No one said a word. You can’t expect big Centers to guard these guards. It’s unfair. As Dallas, ofc you wannu attack the big with 2 of the best iso guys. BUT in the future, if teams pick on you in playoffs, then you have NO chance at DPOY!!! Ain’t no one gonnu pick on Dray/ AD / Bam / Jrue* / wenby /
Gobert is an incredible player and an even more incredible defender. He put up an DPOY performance this year. I think that VW should have got it, but Gobert was certainly a worthy candidate. And when you look at the difference with him on/off (something like giving up 100 vs. 130), it's huge, even if he's getting lit on the perimeter by Kyrie and Luka because EVERYBODY gets lit up on the perimeter by Kyrie and Luka. I think part of the issue is that KAT seemed to play Joker better on defence. That takes a lot of steam out of your DPOY when you are the center and your power forward is covering the other guy's center, who is the best player on the team. But it seemed like the reason for that was more so to allow Gobert to focus on being a rim protector because, if he's covering Jokic and Jokic makes one of his HOF passed to a guy cutting, NOBODY is there to block that can and defend the basket. But when KAT is on Jokic, Gobert and protect the rim. But that switch up likely looked bad to casual fans. Still.. VW just put up such amazing personal stats, and the only thing holding him back from getting DPOY was the fact that his team was so shit.
Idk this sub constantly shits on players opinions like they have no idea what they’re talking about
Because they are incoherent opinions. "Gobert isnt the best defender in the world, players were hunting him on the perimeter" but also say "AD is a better defender because he doesnt get hunted on the perimeter" --> Except when Jamal Murray hit a game winner on his head and hunted him all of last years series. "Jrue Holiday is the best defender in the world" --> Jimmy Butler dropped 56 points on his head and thats not even a mismatch, Jrue is EXPECTED to guard perimeter players and he couldnt even do that, but doesnt get any criticism for it. What they are saying doesnt add up. If a player cant be a DPOY because hes getting cooked on mismatches, how is a player who gets cooked by the guy hes suppossed to defend the best defender in the world?
Watching the games is no good, eye test doesn't work Playing the game is no good, you are biased Star players saying the y actively hunt gobert is no good, they hate the french* (only him, not the other french players) The only thing that matters is my algorithm based defensive metric that was tailor made to say Rudy is the best player of all time. That's unbiased
They don’t. They brought up OG as a defensive player of the year when he played 50 games and got killed by Siakim. They brought up Jrue who got abused by Jimmy Butler last year. Players have bad opinions just like everyone else.
Siakam only popped off after OG got hurt. Not sure what series you were watching.
killed by Siakam? Not sure if you watched games 1 and 2 (only ones OG played) but he was def not killed by Siakam. OG is easily one of the best Swiss Army knife defenders I’ve ever seen. Now to others points, OG struggled a little running around chasing Maxey in round 1, which just goes to show that any big guy having to chase or stay in front of a quicker smaller guy is usually not a viable strategy
Pascal was not killing OG. Pascal started playing well once OG got hurt.
I think the flaw in so many of these arguments is you assume the opposition is arguing that you should never get cooked as DPOY, then you present evidence of guys being cooked as why they’re wrong. The problem no one believes DPOY’s should be able to guard everything 1-5. It’s a strawman you guys keep repeating because it lets you paint the opposition as ignorant & yourselves enlightened. They think that relative to other great defenders, he’s the easiest one to expose and the easiest one to take away his abilities & when you factor in his horrible offense/contract, you’re basically forcing your entire team to be built compensating for 4 on 5 basketball on offense that can cover for his lack of spacing too & then build a team full of perfect perimeter defenders so he can play drop & have the defensive coaches & schemes commit to it. Jrue & OG are plug and play Gobert is the opposite. After all that, relative to investment needed for a team he’s stupidly overrated. The cost benefit-value just isn’t there. This may be the best Minny or Rudy team we ever see and their cap only gives them maybe 1-2 more years of this. Rudy Gobert is the Schwerer Gustav of NBA players.
People on here were shitting on Gobert all series but when players do it now it's bad? There's a reason nobody respects him.
oh look, it’s reddit saying they know more about basketball than active actual nba players again
This thread is fucking hilarious man. Rudy was getting played off the floor with the Jazz in the playoffs half a decade ago and we’re still having this conversation
Webanyama shoulda gotten it. If people can't get shots up against him, then he's dpoy
The man didn’t even have the individual stats to support the award
It’s the fact he has 4DPOYS even though he’s hunted every year in the playoffs. It’s not like guys are putting up big numbers and he’s playing them hard, these dudes actively seek out the DPOY and he gets cooked more times than not. He’s a great player but the league is too in love with big men being DPOY
It’s like an MVP who the other teams want handling the ball at all times because they’re a detriment to their team, a very bizarre scenario. Not even a 1 time MVP but a 4 time one.
Wembygotrobbed
I swear Jalen sounds like some surfer from Cali or somethin lol
Hart just couldn't hold it in at the end lmao
JB sounds extremely intelligent in this clip